Joyce is being super wholesome. I like that she’s completely on-board with Joe’s redemption arc. Where everybody else in his life rolls their eyes and figures he’ll be back to normal in no time, Joyce sincerely believes in his ability to be better.
Ironically, Joyce was at her most Christian after she became an Atheist and stopped worrying about judging people. Good on you, Joyce.
I once made someone FURIOUS when I called fall semester Dorothy the best Christian in the comic. That was fun.
RassilonTDavros
Sauce or it didn’t happen.
…okay, I don’t mean that, but I’d love to see it.
Schpoonman
I really should have taken a screenshot of it.
Clif
What was going on in the comic where you made the comment?
Decidedly Orthogonal
Interesting. I can see a few angles where a radical would lose their shit at that. What was it?
milu
PSA Schpoon is a bit of a troll. maybe take their claims with a grain of salt. (also maybe don’t enable them)
Schpoonman
Eat shit.
milu
dude i’m honestly not mad at you, i just think you’ve proven yourself less than respectful in the past, maybe don’t advertise how skilled you are at getting people riled up.
Decidedly Orthogonal
Cheers. How delightful of them to prove the adage about remaining silent and being thought a fool.
Schpoonman
If I remember correctly they were really stuck on Dorothy not believing in capital G God and didn’t like the implication that works were what being a Christian was really about.
Sum Dum Gai
Well, that’s because no major Christian denomination believes that “works are what being a Christian [is] really about.” In fact, quite the opposite. That’s about as wrong as saying “Eating ham and cheese sandwiches is what being an Orthodox Jew is all about.” (See Ephesians 1:9)
Sum Dum Gai
Sorry, Eph 2:9.
Schpoonman
I am so much less interested in what Paul had to say than Christ. Try James 2:14-26.
Schpoonman
Oh wait, I fucked that up hard, James is not one of the Gospels. Still, Paul’s shotgun approach of lowering the bar as much as possible is what lets monsters like Kenneth Copeland call themselves Christian while exhibiting none of Christ’s qualties and still be taken seriously. Faith without works is dead.
thejeff
James isn’t Christ either. Nor were any of the Gospel writers. James is traditionally considered to be the brother of Jesus and that’s not as widely rejected by mainstream scholars as the traditional authorship of the Gospels (or of the non-Pauline epistles). It’s actually possible, though not too likely, that James is the only piece of writing we have by someone who actually knew Jesus.
That said, most of Paul’s approach is completely misread by critics of Christianity today – and by many Christians. The entire faith vs deeds argument wasn’t about what we’d think of as good deeds – feeding the poor and the like, but about keeping Torah Law. Jesus, Paul and James all agree on the importance of doing good. Paul disagreed with James on things like circumcision and dietary laws.
The Gospel writers disagreed with each other too and were happy to attribute sayings to Jesus to back themselves up.
Schpoonman
Found a example actually from Christ’s mouth, though it’s not as direct. Matthew 7:15-20.
JBento
Was it, perchance, because saying that Dorothy is the best christian in the comic means you’re also implying that being nice and kind are characteristics one arrives at via christianity? Just guessing here.
Schpoonman
Dorothy is kind, self-sacrificing, and looks for the good in people to a fault. There were no other characters in the fall semester (besides maybe Leslie) that followed Christ’s “turn the other cheek” philosophy as well as Dorothy did. She’s the Good Samaritan stretched out into a full(er) character.
JBento
The good Samaritan, you’ll note, is very much not christian. VERY SPECIFICALLY not christian. In fact, one might say that the good Samaritan not being christian is a fundamental point of the parable, because it’s true.
PigmyWurm
.I mean there weren’t any Christians then so of course they weren’t Christian. They were also a hypothetical person. It is a teaching to to Christians about how they are supposed to act. Christians are supposed to act like/be the good Samaritan. Now that doesn’t mean they historically have been, or followed many of Jesus’s other teachings, but that is a more complicated conversation.
Yumi
True that of course they weren’t Christian, though the idea of what JBento said was there… The Good Samaritan wasn’t Jewish, and the traveler they helped was. In fact, Samaritans and Jews were enemies at this time, but a couple Jewish people who came upon the traveler before the Samaritan didn’t help.
It does work as an example of goodness and compassion not being defined by one’s religion.
JBento
Like Yumi pointed out, it’s not just that the Samaritan wasn’t christian, but he was, very specifically, Samaritan, people who, at that point, had, uh, *stern divergences* with jews.
Mark
Actually I think the character in the parable was made a Samaritan because they were Jews, ones who had rebelled and followed a would-be usurper to set up their own kingdom, turning their backs on their heritage. See the little dispute between Jeroboam and Rehoboam.
I suppose it depends on how you define these terms….
Carms
doesn’t that support Schpoon’s ‘works’ argument? The good Samaritan is not Christian (or Jewish) and yet is held up as an example by Christ to his people. ‘To follow my teaching, be like this guy’ -> ‘this guy is acting in accordance with my teachings’.
I mean, i think there might be other bits where its more like ‘doesn’t count if he gave the shirt off his back unless he mentioned that I sent him’, but idk.
Yumi
Depends on what Schpoon’s argument actually is, but I think JBento, along with myself and others, takes issue with the automatic linking of “being good” with “being Christian.” The Good Samaritan could be used as an example to how “goodness” is not tied to a specific religion.
Joy
Christianity creeps me out
milu
but does it creep you out in a fun, would dress up as the virgin mary except with black contacts for halloween kind of way, or in a ..not fun way?
milu
…i’m honestly blown away by my own costume idea rn
Christian has too many meanings for gatekeeping. Not that it’s ever stopped anybody.
thejeff
No, but it’s a particularly toxic one, rooted deep in religious prejudice.
Yumi
I don’t know for sure what Hue’s full meaning was, but I agree that that’s not what being Christian means, and I mean that from the opposite of a gatekeeping way. If you do not consider yourself Christian, do not want to be Christian, then you are not Christian.
I know there are debates over what defines Christianity or what is required to be “saved” in Christianity or whatever, but it’s ridiculous to me that “Christian” could be assigned to someone who does not believe in things like Jesus and the Christian God just because they are a good person.
If you want to argue that fall semester Dorothy best exhibited the character values of Christianity, okay, but if you’re calling her “Christian” as a shorthand for that, OF COURSE some people are going to disagree with what you’re saying.
Sum Dum Gai
C.S. Lewis discussed this at length in the preface to _Mere Christianity_ if you want to dig deeper. Summary, “[w]e must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christians was first given at Antioch (Acts xi. 26) to “the disciples,” to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles.”
HueSatLight
Christian means (narrowly) agreeing with the Nicene Creed, or (broadly) with the Apostles Creed. Without getting into specifics, there is theology involved. Using it as a synonym for “wholesome” or “empathetic” or “supportive” or “good” implies that those traits are owned by Christianity and that non-Christians are by default bad in whatever way that Christians are good. None of those positive traits are dependent on any version of Christian theology, or any theology at all.
Whether or not someone is good/wholesome/empathetic is not related to if they adhere to Christianity. There are Christians who do good things and Christians who do bad things, and non-Christians who do good things and non-Christians who do bad things.
I had forgotten what a sad encounter that was. What a story.
lyzzyrddwyzzyrdd
Actually, there are Christian traditions which don’t adhere to those creeds, or any creed saying that Christianity requires Creeds would be to say that Quakers, like myself are not Christian.
It also makes the argument that pre-Credal Christians were not Christian.
thejeff
Not just assigning someone as Christian because they’re good, but the implication that non-Christians aren’t good is the real problem. That a good non-Christian must really be somehow Christian.
It’s colonialist language, used to “complement” non-Christian locals who please the overlords.
RacingTurtle
Agreed, thejeff. Imagine calling Joe a good Christian because he believes in Joyce’s ability to change for the better. That would be incredibly gross.
Non-Christians are often good people who display traits that some Christians value. It doesn’t make them “better Christians” than Christians who behave badly. Human goodness is not derived from Christianity.
lyzzyrddwyzzyrdd
While I concede the point with Joe because he’s Jewish; the idea is that Joyce as an atheist is acting more in line with Christ’s teachings as an atheist then she was as a Christian. It’s specifically about Joyce.
Yumi
They go hand in hand; they’re both “real” problems. It’s definitely been annoying to me when people have assumed I’m Christian because I [help out a stranger/donate to someone in need/express values of compassion/whatever]. Doubly so when these interactions turn into, “Oh, then maybe I can convert you!”
There are also those religious groups who baptize others after their deaths. Ugh.
Joy
I agree with you it’s really creepy.
Pergola
Something virtuous pagans something.
Schpoonman
Ayyy.
someone
Depends on what kind of Christian you’re talking about, whether they follow Jesus or Jeezus.
If anyone knows about the capacity for meaningful change its Joyce. She’s extending him the same courtesy her friends gave her back when she was the Joyce who tried to date a gay man into being straight
201 thoughts on “Layer”
Ana Chronistic
how about a solid sack of shit
Ana Chronistic
Joe seem sad to realise he’s a sparkly vampire?
Doctor_Who
Joe: an Everlasting Hearthrobstopper.
Sirksome
Snow piles have layers and Joes have layers. You get it? They both have layers!
UrsulaDavina
You know what also has layers parfaits.
Jess
cake! everybody likes cake.
UrsulaDavina
So is Joe a Snowpile Cake or Parfait? Or D all of the above?
Dday
Honestly Joyce’s description is giving me a craving for tartufo.
MIB4u
me it reminds v much of onions … see alt text ^^
LaGrosseLegume
And you can even hide some dirt in cake too if ya want! Its greate solution!
Proxiehunter
Don’t put dirt in the cake, you’ll piss off Rapunzel.
Aussir
I DON’T CARE what everyone likes! Snow piles are not like cakes!
Jamie
I specifically like donuts.
RassilonTDavros
Hey now.
Yumi
–you’re an all-star, get your game on, go playyy
Rose by Any Other Name
Best comment of the evening.
Kimi
Why you never try to drive over a snow pile. There is probably an iceberg underneath that will damage the vehicle since it’s as hard as a rock.
Needfuldoer
You also don’t know what’s underneath. It could be a void, or a big rock, or some shopping carts…
And after a few warm days, they develop a sharp crust.
Clif
Are we still talking about Joe?
Decidedly Orthogonal
Joe’s butt. Don’t ask about the crust. Or do. I don’t kink shame.
Just an Armadillo
Joe: I’m not sure I’m ready to accept that I might be capable of being an okay person, can I just keep being a hot mess please?
Schpoonman
“But working to be a good person is haaaaard.”
someone
“What is better – To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?” –Party Snacks
Lumino
Joyce is being super wholesome. I like that she’s completely on-board with Joe’s redemption arc. Where everybody else in his life rolls their eyes and figures he’ll be back to normal in no time, Joyce sincerely believes in his ability to be better.
Ironically, Joyce was at her most Christian after she became an Atheist and stopped worrying about judging people. Good on you, Joyce.
Schpoonman
I once made someone FURIOUS when I called fall semester Dorothy the best Christian in the comic. That was fun.
RassilonTDavros
Sauce or it didn’t happen.
…okay, I don’t mean that, but I’d love to see it.
Schpoonman
I really should have taken a screenshot of it.
Clif
What was going on in the comic where you made the comment?
Decidedly Orthogonal
Interesting. I can see a few angles where a radical would lose their shit at that. What was it?
milu
PSA Schpoon is a bit of a troll. maybe take their claims with a grain of salt. (also maybe don’t enable them)
Schpoonman
Eat shit.
milu
dude i’m honestly not mad at you, i just think you’ve proven yourself less than respectful in the past, maybe don’t advertise how skilled you are at getting people riled up.
Decidedly Orthogonal
Cheers. How delightful of them to prove the adage about remaining silent and being thought a fool.
Schpoonman
If I remember correctly they were really stuck on Dorothy not believing in capital G God and didn’t like the implication that works were what being a Christian was really about.
Sum Dum Gai
Well, that’s because no major Christian denomination believes that “works are what being a Christian [is] really about.” In fact, quite the opposite. That’s about as wrong as saying “Eating ham and cheese sandwiches is what being an Orthodox Jew is all about.” (See Ephesians 1:9)
Sum Dum Gai
Sorry, Eph 2:9.
Schpoonman
I am so much less interested in what Paul had to say than Christ. Try James 2:14-26.
Schpoonman
Oh wait, I fucked that up hard, James is not one of the Gospels. Still, Paul’s shotgun approach of lowering the bar as much as possible is what lets monsters like Kenneth Copeland call themselves Christian while exhibiting none of Christ’s qualties and still be taken seriously. Faith without works is dead.
thejeff
James isn’t Christ either. Nor were any of the Gospel writers. James is traditionally considered to be the brother of Jesus and that’s not as widely rejected by mainstream scholars as the traditional authorship of the Gospels (or of the non-Pauline epistles). It’s actually possible, though not too likely, that James is the only piece of writing we have by someone who actually knew Jesus.
That said, most of Paul’s approach is completely misread by critics of Christianity today – and by many Christians. The entire faith vs deeds argument wasn’t about what we’d think of as good deeds – feeding the poor and the like, but about keeping Torah Law. Jesus, Paul and James all agree on the importance of doing good. Paul disagreed with James on things like circumcision and dietary laws.
The Gospel writers disagreed with each other too and were happy to attribute sayings to Jesus to back themselves up.
Schpoonman
Found a example actually from Christ’s mouth, though it’s not as direct. Matthew 7:15-20.
JBento
Was it, perchance, because saying that Dorothy is the best christian in the comic means you’re also implying that being nice and kind are characteristics one arrives at via christianity? Just guessing here.
Schpoonman
Dorothy is kind, self-sacrificing, and looks for the good in people to a fault. There were no other characters in the fall semester (besides maybe Leslie) that followed Christ’s “turn the other cheek” philosophy as well as Dorothy did. She’s the Good Samaritan stretched out into a full(er) character.
JBento
The good Samaritan, you’ll note, is very much not christian. VERY SPECIFICALLY not christian. In fact, one might say that the good Samaritan not being christian is a fundamental point of the parable, because it’s true.
PigmyWurm
.I mean there weren’t any Christians then so of course they weren’t Christian. They were also a hypothetical person. It is a teaching to to Christians about how they are supposed to act. Christians are supposed to act like/be the good Samaritan. Now that doesn’t mean they historically have been, or followed many of Jesus’s other teachings, but that is a more complicated conversation.
Yumi
True that of course they weren’t Christian, though the idea of what JBento said was there… The Good Samaritan wasn’t Jewish, and the traveler they helped was. In fact, Samaritans and Jews were enemies at this time, but a couple Jewish people who came upon the traveler before the Samaritan didn’t help.
It does work as an example of goodness and compassion not being defined by one’s religion.
JBento
Like Yumi pointed out, it’s not just that the Samaritan wasn’t christian, but he was, very specifically, Samaritan, people who, at that point, had, uh, *stern divergences* with jews.
Mark
Actually I think the character in the parable was made a Samaritan because they were Jews, ones who had rebelled and followed a would-be usurper to set up their own kingdom, turning their backs on their heritage. See the little dispute between Jeroboam and Rehoboam.
I suppose it depends on how you define these terms….
Carms
doesn’t that support Schpoon’s ‘works’ argument? The good Samaritan is not Christian (or Jewish) and yet is held up as an example by Christ to his people. ‘To follow my teaching, be like this guy’ -> ‘this guy is acting in accordance with my teachings’.
I mean, i think there might be other bits where its more like ‘doesn’t count if he gave the shirt off his back unless he mentioned that I sent him’, but idk.
Yumi
Depends on what Schpoon’s argument actually is, but I think JBento, along with myself and others, takes issue with the automatic linking of “being good” with “being Christian.” The Good Samaritan could be used as an example to how “goodness” is not tied to a specific religion.
Joy
Christianity creeps me out
milu
but does it creep you out in a fun, would dress up as the virgin mary except with black contacts for halloween kind of way, or in a ..not fun way?
milu
…i’m honestly blown away by my own costume idea rn
Dana
Also, she’s far from naive to Joe’s worse tendencies. If he backslides she’s perfectly able to call him out on it. I imagine he values that in her.
RassilonTDavros
Kinda funny how the whole “everything I was ever led to believe was wrong and hateful” thing ended up helping her believe in redemption.
HueSatLight
That’s not what Christian means.
Dana
Christian has too many meanings for gatekeeping. Not that it’s ever stopped anybody.
thejeff
No, but it’s a particularly toxic one, rooted deep in religious prejudice.
Yumi
I don’t know for sure what Hue’s full meaning was, but I agree that that’s not what being Christian means, and I mean that from the opposite of a gatekeeping way. If you do not consider yourself Christian, do not want to be Christian, then you are not Christian.
I know there are debates over what defines Christianity or what is required to be “saved” in Christianity or whatever, but it’s ridiculous to me that “Christian” could be assigned to someone who does not believe in things like Jesus and the Christian God just because they are a good person.
If you want to argue that fall semester Dorothy best exhibited the character values of Christianity, okay, but if you’re calling her “Christian” as a shorthand for that, OF COURSE some people are going to disagree with what you’re saying.
Sum Dum Gai
C.S. Lewis discussed this at length in the preface to _Mere Christianity_ if you want to dig deeper. Summary, “[w]e must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christians was first given at Antioch (Acts xi. 26) to “the disciples,” to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles.”
HueSatLight
Christian means (narrowly) agreeing with the Nicene Creed, or (broadly) with the Apostles Creed. Without getting into specifics, there is theology involved. Using it as a synonym for “wholesome” or “empathetic” or “supportive” or “good” implies that those traits are owned by Christianity and that non-Christians are by default bad in whatever way that Christians are good. None of those positive traits are dependent on any version of Christian theology, or any theology at all.
It’s this: https://www.dumbingofage.com/accounts/
Whether or not someone is good/wholesome/empathetic is not related to if they adhere to Christianity. There are Christians who do good things and Christians who do bad things, and non-Christians who do good things and non-Christians who do bad things.
vulcanodon
I had forgotten what a sad encounter that was. What a story.
lyzzyrddwyzzyrdd
Actually, there are Christian traditions which don’t adhere to those creeds, or any creed saying that Christianity requires Creeds would be to say that Quakers, like myself are not Christian.
It also makes the argument that pre-Credal Christians were not Christian.
thejeff
Not just assigning someone as Christian because they’re good, but the implication that non-Christians aren’t good is the real problem. That a good non-Christian must really be somehow Christian.
It’s colonialist language, used to “complement” non-Christian locals who please the overlords.
RacingTurtle
Agreed, thejeff. Imagine calling Joe a good Christian because he believes in Joyce’s ability to change for the better. That would be incredibly gross.
Non-Christians are often good people who display traits that some Christians value. It doesn’t make them “better Christians” than Christians who behave badly. Human goodness is not derived from Christianity.
lyzzyrddwyzzyrdd
While I concede the point with Joe because he’s Jewish; the idea is that Joyce as an atheist is acting more in line with Christ’s teachings as an atheist then she was as a Christian. It’s specifically about Joyce.
Yumi
They go hand in hand; they’re both “real” problems. It’s definitely been annoying to me when people have assumed I’m Christian because I [help out a stranger/donate to someone in need/express values of compassion/whatever]. Doubly so when these interactions turn into, “Oh, then maybe I can convert you!”
There are also those religious groups who baptize others after their deaths. Ugh.
Joy
I agree with you it’s really creepy.
Pergola
Something virtuous pagans something.
Schpoonman
Ayyy.
someone
Depends on what kind of Christian you’re talking about, whether they follow Jesus or Jeezus.
zee
If anyone knows about the capacity for meaningful change its Joyce. She’s extending him the same courtesy her friends gave her back when she was the Joyce who tried to date a gay man into being straight
Bicycle Bill
So in a way, Lumino, you’re saying that the Christian ideal is the default.
Jamie
Ironically, this is exactly what Dorothy liked about Walky.
Yotomoe
Well he is pretty hot. And he’s a mess.
Lilith
that’s actually kind of sweet
Taffy