We didn’t so much skip the entire storyline where Faz and Dina get married as we erased it from our collective memory, it was so horrifying. So it’s just like we skipped it.
Marsh Maryrose
Actually, we were all mind-wiped and that storyline was retroactively declared non-canon.
adjudicus
FOOLS! It was obviously the Great Faz who wielded his great and terrible powers of life and death to influence the very strip itself!
xtravisage
STAND NAME: 「KING CRIMSON」
STAND MASTER: 「THE FAZ」
Cause this is apparently the first strip in faz is great, and I think willis said something about there still being 11ish strips in face the strange, not to mention the absence of strips in this is the way that we love
What’s interesting to me is the one she used seems less natural in that sentence than alternatives. If that’s intentional, since contractions aren’t natural to her, that’s pretty cool.
Apparently, some people actually use contractions where forms of “have” or “has” are contracted, followed by “not”, such as “I’ve not”, and consider it to sound just fine, but I still prefer the sound of “I haven’t”. Meh, personal preference, I guess.
Amber has always been kind towards Dina, accepting her quirks and helping her to cope with social situations while acknowledging that this stuff can be really hard to do. And she saved Becky (as AG).
Dina knows that Amber is unhappy and caught up in a heck of a lot of self-loathing but she also knows that Amber is kind and brave and truly accepting of others. She has also seen enough of Blaine to understand that he would have been deeply damaging as a parent.
Dina is brave and loyal and caring and I don’t think Amber is going to be able to push her away easily. (Not 100% sure how she would react if Amber lashes out at her like she did Danny but suspect she would talk it over with Becky/Sarah and they would recognise it as a sign Amber needs help rather than condemnation…)
Self-sabotaging Amber is better than “Doing her best Blaine Impression at Danny” Amber, but still awfully depressing.
(Not physically abusive, but emotionally. Amber said some pretty despicable shit to him near the end, which I am a little concerned she barely seems to have acknowledged, focusing entirely on her physically violent side)
I think the comic needs more Sierra. I was thinking about the various roommate pairings, and I couldn’t remember whose Dorothy’s was, and I just want to see them interact more.
Right now I empathise so much with Dina’s speechlessness in the last 2 panels, because I’ve been in so many situations where I’m trying to cheer someone up while they keep on insisting they are a monster and a failure and I know they aren’t, but I have no idea of what to say to them to make them feel better about themselves
I kind of cringe at the idea of “trying to cheer someone up” when they’re like that, even though I know it’s a normal response. Sometimes it might be helpful, depending on your relationship and what the person needs from you at that moment, but in general I don’t see it as being so.
Also, you can’t really “make” someone feel better about themselves. You can try to help them, but…there’s just so much emphasis on trying to fix people in so many interactions with those who are struggling, I feel, when that’s often not as beneficial as we want it to be.
Oh, sorry, upon hindsight the wording came across like I wanted to force them to feel better. I meant that I hate to see my friends beat themselves up over non existential faults or overexaggerated shortcomings and I want to help them.
Also, why do you think that cheering people up is a bad idea?(just curious).
Yumi
Because, well, look how you phrased it: /you/ hate seeing them beat themselves up; /you/ want to help them. Often this desire to cheer people up, to try to help fix them, comes from a place of our own desire, our own discomfort. And so we say things that communicate “please don’t be sad” instead of “I will be here with you while you are sad.”
Sometimes cheering someone up can make sense– for smaller, more tangible things, in my opinion. Sometimes, though, it’s like giving someone a bandaid when they’re bleeding internally.
Yumi
To give a personal and kind of extreme example of well intentioned cheering up:
A few years ago, I was home from college on winter break and I was incredibly depressed; in fact, I was suicidal. I couldn’t stop crying, I was scared, I struggled to ask for help.
My parents hated seeing me in so much pain; they wanted to cheer me up. So they suggested we all go to an arcade.
Now, I love arcades. Love them. But I wanted to die, not go to a fucking arcade. But here were these well-meaning people that I loved, trying to help me by stopping me from being sad. So we went to the arcade, and from what I can remember, we had a pretty good time. I enjoyed myself while we were there.
And two months later I nearly killed myself.
adjudicus
Holy crap, I’m so sorry you had to go through that! And, um, what would then be a better way of trying to help people in really bad situations without eventually leading to more harm?
Joyful
I’m coming out of the woodwork as a ghost for the first time after reading this comic for years cause I gotta add something to this thread.
Over the years of being a person who gets sad and having friends who get sad in different ways, usually there are a few different things that any given person needs or wants from other people.
1. A distraction/to be “cheered up”
This is pretty normal. Normal people with normal sadness levels and relatively intact coping mechanisms just need a little (or perhaps big!) boost from somebody in their support network to help them cope with and move past how they are feeling. If you or somebody else is looking for this, it might actually not help at all for them to dwell on their feelings for any longer than necessary. You can tell people how great you think they are, and try to be as genuine and specific about it as possible. Don’t just say “aw, no, you’re great!”. Break out the big guns. “Truthfully, x y and z are things I have always admired about you, and nothing you can say or do will convince me otherwise.”
2. Practical advice.
Sometimes, people in a slump might need an extra push. They are overwhelmed by circumstances and feel helpless. Sometimes a person might need someone on the outside of their head speaking rational sense to help break them out of cycles of negative intrusive thoughts, or genuine advice on how they can help themselves cope better. Like…usually a therapist is the most qualified to give that kind of advice, but if your friend seems willing to listen to any suggestions you might have, go for it.
For example, a friend of mine tells me how he’s been wracking his brain for hours trying to think about things to do for Inktober drawings, how he was really looking forward to trying to stick it out for the whole month. But he imposes all these rules on what things he’s allowed to draw and how he should draw them, no ideas are good ones, he’s a failure and oh his abusive mother also added to the joy by making him feel like any time he spends on Inktober drawings is an utter waste. I told him that it’s admirable that he wanted to do it for the whole month, his mother doesn’t know how much these drawings meant to him, but he is putting far too much pressure on himself and is worrying over things that ultimately do not matter. But I know the anxieties don’t just go away, so maybe he should try and let go of his need to do a drawing every single day (if that’s easier to let go of then the restrictions on each drawing), and allow himself some time to get out of that negative head space and tackle the drawing again at a later time. It’s okay to miss a few days of inktober, and nobody says you can’t keep doing ink drawings in November too. Be kind to yourself. You tried!
3. A listening ear/emotional validation
This can be kind of difficult. Sometimes people just need to be sad. In fact, the only way to move on from deep hurts is to be able to acknowledge the depth and truth of those hurts, and then take steps to move on from them. You can’t get around it, make it go away, or fix it for them. Or hell, maybe you COULD, but sometimes if YOU are the one to fix this thing for them, you rob them of the closure of having moved past something on their own power. If they are struggling with feelings of helplessness, that can kind of just….delay the inevitable.
So those times, you just try to engage with how they feel. If they want to talk about it, listen intently. If they feel open to answering questions about it, ask some to show you are engaged, and also to help you understand how they are feeling better. Tell them “yeah, wow, that SUCKS.” or “I’m really sorry that happened, it’s totally understandable for you to feel that way.” If they don’t want to talk about it, don’t push, but just let them know that you are there for them.
IMPORTANT
It is absolutely imperative you know WHICH the other person wants, because if they want one and get another, it’s disaster. If someone wants advice or reassurance and all they get is “wow, that sucks!”, that’s fucking frustrating and unhelpful. If someone is looking for validation and all they get are you ignoring their feelings to force them to feel better, or preaching at them about how they SHOULD be acting or feeling, that’s also shitty. If somebody is just looking to get cheered up and distracted from their pain, a “that sucks!” or dwelling on things through unwanted advice is ALSO unhelpful.
So generally. The thing to do here is ASK. Ask what the person things they want or need before you try anything at all. Unless you know them and their patterns well enough to simply instinctively know what they usually need. But even then, it can’t hurt to ask.
And sometimes people genuinely do just need to be left alone for a while. But with the safety net of your support whenever they need it. Maybe check in on them from time to time and ask, again. Let them know you are thinking of them.
Indoor Cat
Can’t speak for Yumi, but three things help me.
1. Validate sad feelings / reassure — so things like, “I know this is really hard for you. I’m sorry you’re feeling so sad right now. It’s good to cry though. Don’t worry, we’re not going anywhere.” (alternately, because people vary, maybe ask, “would you like privacy or company?” and then go with the one they want).
2. Let the sad person take the lead / vent. Similar to ‘privacy or company,’ it can also help to ask, “Do you want a hug, or do you want some space?” The theme is, don’t push your preferred method of cheering up onto someone else. In many cases, people want to talk.
3. After they’ve vented, ask open-ended questions like, “The last time you felt like this, what made you feel better?” Or, “What are some specific things we can do right now to try and get through this?” The person might have some ideas! They might not, in which case it’s okay to suggest some things. But they probably actually have some ideas, even if they might feel embarrassed to admit (maybe because what they want feels juvenile, or maybe because what they want is [in my case] to go to the hospital but they don’t know if it’s “bad enough” to warrant that.)
4. Incidentally, pretty much the minute someone says, “I want to go to the hospital” or get some kind of medical treatment, take them. Do not try and talk them out of it. Nobody suggests going to the hospital unless they’ve hit rock bottom. While I advise against calling 911 if you’re unsure, if the person says, “I need to go to the ER,” then you can be sure they need to go to the ER. Again, cannot speak for Yumi, but in my case, I specifically asked to go to the hospital and people talked me out of it, which was awful.
BBCC
I can see how most of this would be helpful, but I’d be worried about leaving someone suicidal alone. What’s best practice in that scenario?
Yumi
@BBCC: It really depends on the risk level of their suicidality. Are they actively suicidal, as in if you leave them alone you believe they’ll attempt? You can call emergency services in that case, or you could call a crisis hotline who may be able to help you with contacting such services and provide emotional assistance to you as well. Is the likelihood that they’ll attempt if left alone (right then) lower? Then you could try to work out a plan with them for what they’ll do when they’re alone; you can also support them in getting help when they’re ready.
Example:
A: “I’m worried about some of the things you’ve been saying. Are you feeling suicidal?” (Because: ask! ask if they’re suicidal if they haven’t said it/it’s unclear/you’re worried!)
B: “Yeah, I am. But, like, I don’t think I’m going to do anything tonight. I just want to be alone.”
A: “Okay, well, what do you think you might do once I leave/you go home/whatever?”
Maybe you discuss that they plan to read, then take a nap. Also identify what supports are currently in their life. Do they live with someone that would help them get help? Do they currently see a therapist? Could they call them? I’d make sure they had numbers for crisis lines (both phone and chat/text) as well as your number if that’s something you’re comfortable with.
If you’d like to strengthen your skills related to this, I’d recommend looking into a training called ASIST, which is a very good workshop in suicide first aid. https://www.livingworks.net/programs/asist/
Yumi
@Indoor Cat: I relate so much to your last point that I went back to check if I mentioned hospitalization in a previous comment. I also (at the time of events previously described) asked to go to a psychiatric hospital and was told that taking that step essentially was too extreme.
Inahc
also in canada there’s 811, which gives non-emergency medical advice (eg. should I see a doctor? should I be calling 911?)
Bathymetheus
Really great advice and info here. Speaking as someone who has worked on a crisis phone line, thank you all for helping. The suggestions made here can literally save lives.
BBCC
@ Yumi – That sounds reasonable. I might also talk to them about lowering risks – like taking any pills, sharp objects, etc. with me or locking them up somewhere and letting someone else have the key, etc. if it were that bad.
@ Inahc – That’s actually very helpful. I am in Canada and I didn’t know this.
Kryss LaBryn
Speaking for myself, trying to convince me it’s not all that big of a deal can be helpful, or it can hurt more, pretty much just depending on *me* at that moment.
Like, “Wow, it’s pretty awful, but we can solve this/get through this, and I’ve got some ideas about how we can do that, if you want. Don’t worry, I won’t leave you to deal with this alone,” can be really helpful.
But, “I don’t know why you’re making such a big fuss about this stupid little thing,” just makes me feel worse and even more of a failure, even if it’s phrased more kindly, like “Don’t worry, this isn’t actually such a big deal after all,” or something. :/ It’s a hard, narrow path to walk, and it constantly shifts around.
What helps the most is understanding and empathy. Understand that, while from the outside, it might not seem like a big deal, whatever it is that’s bothering me so much (if it’s even one specific thing), from in here it’s overwhelming. It’s like having a cat sitting on your face. Cats: Pretty small, all things considered, not too much of an issue so long as they’re fed and their litterbox is cleaned on a regular basis. Cat on the lap: Pretty nice, actually. Cat snuggling in bed: Can be tremendously comforting. Cat sleeping on your face: OH GOD I CAN’T BREATHE. Someone standing to the side saying, “It’s just a cat, oh my god, anyways, I thought you wanted her in bed with you?!” is not helping, either in the understanding department nor in the THERE’S A CAT ON MY FACE AND I CAN’T BREATHE department.
Empathy ought to be self-explanatory, I would hope, especially for this crowd. ? <3
Anyways, here, this short, sfw video on the difference between sympathy and empathy is actually really helpful. http://cheezburger.com/56915969/this-short-cartoon-will-show-you-the-power-of-empathy-versus-sympathy-and-make-you-a-better-person
Yeah, and putting too much pressure on someone to “cheer up” can end up making them feel bad that they feel bad.
Sometimes it’s better to validate how they feel and try to be comforting and/or supportive. Even when a person is grieve the loss of someone close to them, we often are in too much of a hurry to try to cheer them up, when what they need is support, comfort, or just sympathy. Sometimes people need that even when the thing they’re upset about ends up being silly. Sometimes you just feel that way and it needs to be let out.
Inahc
pressuring someone to feel better can make them self-sabotage more out of spite? also sometimes it’s really important to ackowledge how shitty something feels (or even is) and that the universe is kinda fucked up and unfair.
it’s hard to balance acknowledging the pain vs trying to not ruminate. even with myself there’s a lot of guesswork involved in deciding whether it’s a day to curl up in bed or a day to drag myeslf outside.
Liliet
My grandma really likes to say “stop crying, don’t cry” when I have literally come to her to have a shoulder to cry on. Like, I made a consicous decision to stop Not Thinking About It, to actually talk about it and cry all I want because it sucks and I hurt, and I know for a fact, from experience, that I’ll feel better afterwards.
Telling me to stop doing that, to stop crying, to go back to bottling everything up and smiling and ‘not saying it like that’ and ‘not exaggerating things’… is not fucking helpful.
(Even when I actually exaggerate, it still helps – it helps ping my its-not-so-bad-o-meter which puts a hard limit on how shitty the situation is. Better than not even going there and feeling like im drowning in a bottomless bog of repressed horrible)
As someone who was “discouraged” from expressing negative emotions as a child – including the depression that inevitably resulted from that – I have a particular antipathy to attempts to “cheer [me] up”. I feel I have a right to be unhappy, if that is how I am feeling, and resent what I perceive as a denial of that right.
So, thank you for saying this.
Bathymetheus
This is so far down that it’s unclear, but it’s a response to Yumi’s comment from 12:34 a.m.
In my opinion, Dina’s silence is – whether she knows this or not – is a good response.
There is no right thing to say here, but Dina did really good. Gently letting Amber know she is loved and people aren’t going to let her push them away is probably the best thing to do here, even if Amber’s trying to fight it. Dina arguing with her further probably wouldn’t get anywhere.
I sometimes feel I’m doing that with my sophomore-in-college age daughter, and it’s terrifying and helplessness-inducing. I don’t know what to do – I just try to engage as best I can.
This is the different-generational experience, and it really sucks, frankly. But new adults often aren’t really good at adulting, so we experienced adults, to whatever degree we can, provide the support and guidance that we hope can steer these new adults into healthy adult life. Of course we’re limited in our own degree of healthiness/dysfunction, but those of us who feel genuinely responsible will do our best.
what I think I needed (and didn’t get back then) was to be loved and have some basic boundaries respected even if I screwed up.
with my husband, I don’t want him to try and solve my problems for me, I just want lots and lots of hugs to help me survive the tidal-waves of Feelings. and once they’re over I can do the problem-solving myself.
I almost wonder if maybe there’s more than one person Amber feels she should give up on. I mean, she definitely thinks she needs to give up on herself, but maybe she thinks Amazi-Girl needs to stop trying to help people too.
129 thoughts on “Bail”
Shiro
Dina is so good
adjudicus
Wait, did we just skip an entire storyline?
TheAmazingKMan
I’m guessing that is a mistake. If it isn’t, then that is very weird…
Clif
We didn’t so much skip the entire storyline where Faz and Dina get married as we erased it from our collective memory, it was so horrifying. So it’s just like we skipped it.
Marsh Maryrose
Actually, we were all mind-wiped and that storyline was retroactively declared non-canon.
adjudicus
FOOLS! It was obviously the Great Faz who wielded his great and terrible powers of life and death to influence the very strip itself!
xtravisage
STAND NAME: 「KING CRIMSON」
STAND MASTER: 「THE FAZ」
adjudicus
Cause this is apparently the first strip in faz is great, and I think willis said something about there still being 11ish strips in face the strange, not to mention the absence of strips in this is the way that we love
Yumi
Ooooh, okay. But it looks like it’s fixed now, so did it ever really happen?
Yumi
What do you mean?
BBCC
Okay, now it says This is the Way that We Love but isn’t it still Face the Strange? What?
WILLIS, HELP.
Yumi
I love Dina, my god.
Also, I refreshed the strip so many times.
Shiro
Same, I was afraid we’d have no strip today. I was gonna go into withdrawals.
m-m
The hat has faith in you, Amber.
Haven
I want a friend like Dina.
Marsh Maryrose
Storyline name is the most awful. I have many charts to explain why.
Marsh Maryrose
Storyline name has been corrected. In most Emily Litella voice: “NIvver mind.”
Jon Rich
What was it before?
King Daniel
“Faz Is Great”.
DocHarleen
We went from 01 to 03? Also. Faz. Oh dear.
Miguel
DINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wheelpath
We will never give up on Amber, she may not be a dinosaur, but she still deserves marginal attention and care.
Yo, I wish one of the real windblade toys looked as good as background out of focus Windblade in this strip.
Nono
Dina used a contraction, dang.
Yumi
What’s interesting to me is the one she used seems less natural in that sentence than alternatives. If that’s intentional, since contractions aren’t natural to her, that’s pretty cool.
Jimbo
Apparently, some people actually use contractions where forms of “have” or “has” are contracted, followed by “not”, such as “I’ve not”, and consider it to sound just fine, but I still prefer the sound of “I haven’t”. Meh, personal preference, I guess.
Zaidyer
*twitch*
Maveric1984
Willis… I saw the Twitter feed tonight. You feeling ok?
Kernanator
Amber: My foot is going to hurt.
*shoots herself in the foot*
Amber: See, just like I predicted.
Liliet
Congrats, you have just defined self-harm
…
I wish this was not a thing currently happening to Amber
Keulen
Ok we appear to have jumped to an entirely different storyline somehow.
Keulen
And looks like it’s fixed. Nevermind then.
missilentmurmur
The one time I had to get up before 6 and hoped for a comic as a consolation price, it is late.
Achallenger
I really like Frank amber
Badgermole
Unsure if last panel is depressing or optimistic or somehow both.
Shiro
She hasn’t given up on herself yet, I think it’s a good thing
Inahc
stubbornness is useful for that.
Reltzik
BOTH.
Needfuldoer
Yes.
Miri
Amber has always been kind towards Dina, accepting her quirks and helping her to cope with social situations while acknowledging that this stuff can be really hard to do. And she saved Becky (as AG).
Dina knows that Amber is unhappy and caught up in a heck of a lot of self-loathing but she also knows that Amber is kind and brave and truly accepting of others. She has also seen enough of Blaine to understand that he would have been deeply damaging as a parent.
Dina is brave and loyal and caring and I don’t think Amber is going to be able to push her away easily. (Not 100% sure how she would react if Amber lashes out at her like she did Danny but suspect she would talk it over with Becky/Sarah and they would recognise it as a sign Amber needs help rather than condemnation…)
DailyBrad
Self-sabotaging Amber is better than “Doing her best Blaine Impression at Danny” Amber, but still awfully depressing.
(Not physically abusive, but emotionally. Amber said some pretty despicable shit to him near the end, which I am a little concerned she barely seems to have acknowledged, focusing entirely on her physically violent side)
Yumi
I think the comic needs more Sierra. I was thinking about the various roommate pairings, and I couldn’t remember whose Dorothy’s was, and I just want to see them interact more.
Jess
Right? She’s kind of great.
Eldritch Gentleman
She is 100% Joyce love minus all the prejudice.
adjudicus
Right now I empathise so much with Dina’s speechlessness in the last 2 panels, because I’ve been in so many situations where I’m trying to cheer someone up while they keep on insisting they are a monster and a failure and I know they aren’t, but I have no idea of what to say to them to make them feel better about themselves
Yumi
I kind of cringe at the idea of “trying to cheer someone up” when they’re like that, even though I know it’s a normal response. Sometimes it might be helpful, depending on your relationship and what the person needs from you at that moment, but in general I don’t see it as being so.
Also, you can’t really “make” someone feel better about themselves. You can try to help them, but…there’s just so much emphasis on trying to fix people in so many interactions with those who are struggling, I feel, when that’s often not as beneficial as we want it to be.
Yumi
I’m sorry; I feel that saying I “cringe” comes across harsh. It just goes against what I’ve been taught.
adjudicus
Oh, sorry, upon hindsight the wording came across like I wanted to force them to feel better. I meant that I hate to see my friends beat themselves up over non existential faults or overexaggerated shortcomings and I want to help them.
Also, why do you think that cheering people up is a bad idea?(just curious).
Yumi
Because, well, look how you phrased it: /you/ hate seeing them beat themselves up; /you/ want to help them. Often this desire to cheer people up, to try to help fix them, comes from a place of our own desire, our own discomfort. And so we say things that communicate “please don’t be sad” instead of “I will be here with you while you are sad.”
Sometimes cheering someone up can make sense– for smaller, more tangible things, in my opinion. Sometimes, though, it’s like giving someone a bandaid when they’re bleeding internally.
Yumi
To give a personal and kind of extreme example of well intentioned cheering up:
A few years ago, I was home from college on winter break and I was incredibly depressed; in fact, I was suicidal. I couldn’t stop crying, I was scared, I struggled to ask for help.
My parents hated seeing me in so much pain; they wanted to cheer me up. So they suggested we all go to an arcade.
Now, I love arcades. Love them. But I wanted to die, not go to a fucking arcade. But here were these well-meaning people that I loved, trying to help me by stopping me from being sad. So we went to the arcade, and from what I can remember, we had a pretty good time. I enjoyed myself while we were there.
And two months later I nearly killed myself.
adjudicus
Holy crap, I’m so sorry you had to go through that! And, um, what would then be a better way of trying to help people in really bad situations without eventually leading to more harm?
Joyful
I’m coming out of the woodwork as a ghost for the first time after reading this comic for years cause I gotta add something to this thread.
Over the years of being a person who gets sad and having friends who get sad in different ways, usually there are a few different things that any given person needs or wants from other people.
1. A distraction/to be “cheered up”
This is pretty normal. Normal people with normal sadness levels and relatively intact coping mechanisms just need a little (or perhaps big!) boost from somebody in their support network to help them cope with and move past how they are feeling. If you or somebody else is looking for this, it might actually not help at all for them to dwell on their feelings for any longer than necessary. You can tell people how great you think they are, and try to be as genuine and specific about it as possible. Don’t just say “aw, no, you’re great!”. Break out the big guns. “Truthfully, x y and z are things I have always admired about you, and nothing you can say or do will convince me otherwise.”
2. Practical advice.
Sometimes, people in a slump might need an extra push. They are overwhelmed by circumstances and feel helpless. Sometimes a person might need someone on the outside of their head speaking rational sense to help break them out of cycles of negative intrusive thoughts, or genuine advice on how they can help themselves cope better. Like…usually a therapist is the most qualified to give that kind of advice, but if your friend seems willing to listen to any suggestions you might have, go for it.
For example, a friend of mine tells me how he’s been wracking his brain for hours trying to think about things to do for Inktober drawings, how he was really looking forward to trying to stick it out for the whole month. But he imposes all these rules on what things he’s allowed to draw and how he should draw them, no ideas are good ones, he’s a failure and oh his abusive mother also added to the joy by making him feel like any time he spends on Inktober drawings is an utter waste. I told him that it’s admirable that he wanted to do it for the whole month, his mother doesn’t know how much these drawings meant to him, but he is putting far too much pressure on himself and is worrying over things that ultimately do not matter. But I know the anxieties don’t just go away, so maybe he should try and let go of his need to do a drawing every single day (if that’s easier to let go of then the restrictions on each drawing), and allow himself some time to get out of that negative head space and tackle the drawing again at a later time. It’s okay to miss a few days of inktober, and nobody says you can’t keep doing ink drawings in November too. Be kind to yourself. You tried!
3. A listening ear/emotional validation
This can be kind of difficult. Sometimes people just need to be sad. In fact, the only way to move on from deep hurts is to be able to acknowledge the depth and truth of those hurts, and then take steps to move on from them. You can’t get around it, make it go away, or fix it for them. Or hell, maybe you COULD, but sometimes if YOU are the one to fix this thing for them, you rob them of the closure of having moved past something on their own power. If they are struggling with feelings of helplessness, that can kind of just….delay the inevitable.
So those times, you just try to engage with how they feel. If they want to talk about it, listen intently. If they feel open to answering questions about it, ask some to show you are engaged, and also to help you understand how they are feeling better. Tell them “yeah, wow, that SUCKS.” or “I’m really sorry that happened, it’s totally understandable for you to feel that way.” If they don’t want to talk about it, don’t push, but just let them know that you are there for them.
IMPORTANT
It is absolutely imperative you know WHICH the other person wants, because if they want one and get another, it’s disaster. If someone wants advice or reassurance and all they get is “wow, that sucks!”, that’s fucking frustrating and unhelpful. If someone is looking for validation and all they get are you ignoring their feelings to force them to feel better, or preaching at them about how they SHOULD be acting or feeling, that’s also shitty. If somebody is just looking to get cheered up and distracted from their pain, a “that sucks!” or dwelling on things through unwanted advice is ALSO unhelpful.
So generally. The thing to do here is ASK. Ask what the person things they want or need before you try anything at all. Unless you know them and their patterns well enough to simply instinctively know what they usually need. But even then, it can’t hurt to ask.
And sometimes people genuinely do just need to be left alone for a while. But with the safety net of your support whenever they need it. Maybe check in on them from time to time and ask, again. Let them know you are thinking of them.
Indoor Cat
Can’t speak for Yumi, but three things help me.
1. Validate sad feelings / reassure — so things like, “I know this is really hard for you. I’m sorry you’re feeling so sad right now. It’s good to cry though. Don’t worry, we’re not going anywhere.” (alternately, because people vary, maybe ask, “would you like privacy or company?” and then go with the one they want).
2. Let the sad person take the lead / vent. Similar to ‘privacy or company,’ it can also help to ask, “Do you want a hug, or do you want some space?” The theme is, don’t push your preferred method of cheering up onto someone else. In many cases, people want to talk.
3. After they’ve vented, ask open-ended questions like, “The last time you felt like this, what made you feel better?” Or, “What are some specific things we can do right now to try and get through this?” The person might have some ideas! They might not, in which case it’s okay to suggest some things. But they probably actually have some ideas, even if they might feel embarrassed to admit (maybe because what they want feels juvenile, or maybe because what they want is [in my case] to go to the hospital but they don’t know if it’s “bad enough” to warrant that.)
4. Incidentally, pretty much the minute someone says, “I want to go to the hospital” or get some kind of medical treatment, take them. Do not try and talk them out of it. Nobody suggests going to the hospital unless they’ve hit rock bottom. While I advise against calling 911 if you’re unsure, if the person says, “I need to go to the ER,” then you can be sure they need to go to the ER. Again, cannot speak for Yumi, but in my case, I specifically asked to go to the hospital and people talked me out of it, which was awful.
BBCC
I can see how most of this would be helpful, but I’d be worried about leaving someone suicidal alone. What’s best practice in that scenario?
Yumi
@BBCC: It really depends on the risk level of their suicidality. Are they actively suicidal, as in if you leave them alone you believe they’ll attempt? You can call emergency services in that case, or you could call a crisis hotline who may be able to help you with contacting such services and provide emotional assistance to you as well. Is the likelihood that they’ll attempt if left alone (right then) lower? Then you could try to work out a plan with them for what they’ll do when they’re alone; you can also support them in getting help when they’re ready.
Example:
A: “I’m worried about some of the things you’ve been saying. Are you feeling suicidal?” (Because: ask! ask if they’re suicidal if they haven’t said it/it’s unclear/you’re worried!)
B: “Yeah, I am. But, like, I don’t think I’m going to do anything tonight. I just want to be alone.”
A: “Okay, well, what do you think you might do once I leave/you go home/whatever?”
Maybe you discuss that they plan to read, then take a nap. Also identify what supports are currently in their life. Do they live with someone that would help them get help? Do they currently see a therapist? Could they call them? I’d make sure they had numbers for crisis lines (both phone and chat/text) as well as your number if that’s something you’re comfortable with.
If you’d like to strengthen your skills related to this, I’d recommend looking into a training called ASIST, which is a very good workshop in suicide first aid. https://www.livingworks.net/programs/asist/
Yumi
@Indoor Cat: I relate so much to your last point that I went back to check if I mentioned hospitalization in a previous comment. I also (at the time of events previously described) asked to go to a psychiatric hospital and was told that taking that step essentially was too extreme.
Inahc
also in canada there’s 811, which gives non-emergency medical advice (eg. should I see a doctor? should I be calling 911?)
Bathymetheus
Really great advice and info here. Speaking as someone who has worked on a crisis phone line, thank you all for helping. The suggestions made here can literally save lives.
BBCC
@ Yumi – That sounds reasonable. I might also talk to them about lowering risks – like taking any pills, sharp objects, etc. with me or locking them up somewhere and letting someone else have the key, etc. if it were that bad.
@ Inahc – That’s actually very helpful. I am in Canada and I didn’t know this.
Kryss LaBryn
Speaking for myself, trying to convince me it’s not all that big of a deal can be helpful, or it can hurt more, pretty much just depending on *me* at that moment.
Like, “Wow, it’s pretty awful, but we can solve this/get through this, and I’ve got some ideas about how we can do that, if you want. Don’t worry, I won’t leave you to deal with this alone,” can be really helpful.
But, “I don’t know why you’re making such a big fuss about this stupid little thing,” just makes me feel worse and even more of a failure, even if it’s phrased more kindly, like “Don’t worry, this isn’t actually such a big deal after all,” or something. :/ It’s a hard, narrow path to walk, and it constantly shifts around.
What helps the most is understanding and empathy. Understand that, while from the outside, it might not seem like a big deal, whatever it is that’s bothering me so much (if it’s even one specific thing), from in here it’s overwhelming. It’s like having a cat sitting on your face. Cats: Pretty small, all things considered, not too much of an issue so long as they’re fed and their litterbox is cleaned on a regular basis. Cat on the lap: Pretty nice, actually. Cat snuggling in bed: Can be tremendously comforting. Cat sleeping on your face: OH GOD I CAN’T BREATHE. Someone standing to the side saying, “It’s just a cat, oh my god, anyways, I thought you wanted her in bed with you?!” is not helping, either in the understanding department nor in the THERE’S A CAT ON MY FACE AND I CAN’T BREATHE department.
Empathy ought to be self-explanatory, I would hope, especially for this crowd. ? <3
Anyways, here, this short, sfw video on the difference between sympathy and empathy is actually really helpful.
http://cheezburger.com/56915969/this-short-cartoon-will-show-you-the-power-of-empathy-versus-sympathy-and-make-you-a-better-person
Fart Captor
Yeah, and putting too much pressure on someone to “cheer up” can end up making them feel bad that they feel bad.
Sometimes it’s better to validate how they feel and try to be comforting and/or supportive. Even when a person is grieve the loss of someone close to them, we often are in too much of a hurry to try to cheer them up, when what they need is support, comfort, or just sympathy. Sometimes people need that even when the thing they’re upset about ends up being silly. Sometimes you just feel that way and it needs to be let out.
Inahc
pressuring someone to feel better can make them self-sabotage more out of spite? also sometimes it’s really important to ackowledge how shitty something feels (or even is) and that the universe is kinda fucked up and unfair.
it’s hard to balance acknowledging the pain vs trying to not ruminate. even with myself there’s a lot of guesswork involved in deciding whether it’s a day to curl up in bed or a day to drag myeslf outside.
Liliet
My grandma really likes to say “stop crying, don’t cry” when I have literally come to her to have a shoulder to cry on. Like, I made a consicous decision to stop Not Thinking About It, to actually talk about it and cry all I want because it sucks and I hurt, and I know for a fact, from experience, that I’ll feel better afterwards.
Telling me to stop doing that, to stop crying, to go back to bottling everything up and smiling and ‘not saying it like that’ and ‘not exaggerating things’… is not fucking helpful.
(Even when I actually exaggerate, it still helps – it helps ping my its-not-so-bad-o-meter which puts a hard limit on how shitty the situation is. Better than not even going there and feeling like im drowning in a bottomless bog of repressed horrible)
Bathymetheus
As someone who was “discouraged” from expressing negative emotions as a child – including the depression that inevitably resulted from that – I have a particular antipathy to attempts to “cheer [me] up”. I feel I have a right to be unhappy, if that is how I am feeling, and resent what I perceive as a denial of that right.
So, thank you for saying this.
Bathymetheus
This is so far down that it’s unclear, but it’s a response to Yumi’s comment from 12:34 a.m.
Fart Captor
In my opinion, Dina’s silence is – whether she knows this or not – is a good response.
There is no right thing to say here, but Dina did really good. Gently letting Amber know she is loved and people aren’t going to let her push them away is probably the best thing to do here, even if Amber’s trying to fight it. Dina arguing with her further probably wouldn’t get anywhere.
Doris Fromage
I sometimes feel I’m doing that with my sophomore-in-college age daughter, and it’s terrifying and helplessness-inducing. I don’t know what to do – I just try to engage as best I can.
This is the different-generational experience, and it really sucks, frankly. But new adults often aren’t really good at adulting, so we experienced adults, to whatever degree we can, provide the support and guidance that we hope can steer these new adults into healthy adult life. Of course we’re limited in our own degree of healthiness/dysfunction, but those of us who feel genuinely responsible will do our best.
Count on it.
Inahc
what I think I needed (and didn’t get back then) was to be loved and have some basic boundaries respected even if I screwed up.
with my husband, I don’t want him to try and solve my problems for me, I just want lots and lots of hugs to help me survive the tidal-waves of Feelings. and once they’re over I can do the problem-solving myself.
ANeM
In my own experience with this kind of thing.. it’s gotten to the point where my friends just know to say “You’re a good person now shut up.”
I just have to accept that both those statements have been earned.
Keulen
Sounds like Amber hasn’t completely given up on herself yet either. At least that’s how I’m interpreting the last panel.
newllend(henryvolt)
I feel like it’s like “Show me how you did it so I can teach everyone else.”
TheGrammarLegionary
I almost wonder if maybe there’s more than one person Amber feels she should give up on. I mean, she definitely thinks she needs to give up on herself, but maybe she thinks Amazi-Girl needs to stop trying to help people too.
Leila
“help”