Turns out it actually doesn’t, it just spreads it further.
Pablo360
Isn’t that basically how Teddy Roosevelt became President?
Jon Rich
Yeah. Crooked party bosses in New York wanted to get hm out of their hair. Back then the VP did basically nothing. Then McKinley got shot less than a year into office.
Yeah, and they let him off scot free for at least thirty something counts of breaking and entering and burglary and one count of impersonating Santa. Admittedly, Whoville was a giant noise complaint but still, the Grimch broke into everyone’s house. He knows all the layouts of their homes now and the Whos have only his say so that he’ll never pull something like that again.
Only when I have the sudden realization that something from my childhood is, in retrospect, creepy. Which is more often than I’d like. Maybe I’m slowly becoming a cynical asshole. Maybe I just don’t like Dr. Seus anymore. I honestly don’t know which of those options saddens me more.
Needfuldoer
If the Grinch hated the Christmas noise so much that he went to such lengths to stop it for one day, what did he do during the summer about the Who’s lawn mowers?
SgtWadeyWilson
How The Grinch Salted the Earth and Brought Blight and Famine to all of Whoville is the much darker prequel. /sarcasm
The Cat in the Hat had boundary issues as well. It just wasn’t obvious until they made him ridiculously fluffy in a live action movie.
Halpful
Yeah… I’m starting to see some anti-boundary aspects of the culture that gave us a lot of otherwise-good literature. It’s a culture where the abusers are forgiven at the expense of the victims, in order to keep the peace. Some of the Discworld books illustrated the way that culture sees itself as necessary. Small towns, where witches play the Ruthless role to keep people in line for their own good. And if they take advantage now and then, it’s okay because they’re the good guys and aren’t we lucky they haven’t started with the cackling and building gingerbread houses? :/ I love the books about the witches, but I don’t agree with Granny Weatherwax on a few important matters of morality.
The way I see it at the moment, that was the best system people could come up with once, but not any more. We’re starting to understand more about neuroscience and learn healthier ways of interacting with people. Boundaries being one of the cornerstones.
In Discworld, if the witches didn’t meddle and trample all over people’s boundaries, those people would make tragic mistakes, being too weak and foolish to do better. In our world, weaknesses can be addressed with medication, therapy and other such treatments. Education can teach people skills to manage their own lives intelligently (although we still can’t *make* someone learn). People have some chance of escaping abusive situations, of choosing to *not* sacrifice themselves for someone else’s idea of the greater good. There’s still a lot of problems, but it gives people the freedom to choose what’s best for themselves, and it turns out there are plenty of areas where the conventional wisdom does more harm than good.
Krys Brynhildr
The funny thing is that I think there’s various examples of the Discworld witches using their head-ology to stop other people who are overstepping other sorts of boundaries and stuff and using unconventional wisdom where conventional wisdom is causing a problem. Which yeah, makes it maybe a bit awkward all around.
IllogicalBobcat
I’m not sure Discworld logic is anymore applicable to this world than Hitchhiker’s Guide logic.
StClair
It’s the establishment of a class, profession, etc who are socially justified in messing with you/overriding your agency “for your own good.” Sometimes it works, sometimes it really doesn’t; and those who have experienced it firsthand tend to have Opinions.
Doctor_Who
Where I think Discworld mostly succeeds is that it doesn’t portray the witches (especially Granny) as unambiguously heroic. They can be rather meddlesome biddies.
They are ultimately good people, yes, but Granny is also a bit of a bully who will show up and ruin your puppet show for fun and would rather be feared than liked, and Nanny is a drunken thief and gossip who tyrannizes her daughters-in-law. Magrat and Agnes are nicer, but that’s because they are more naive and inexperienced, and haven’t learned how to properly manipulate people yet.
I also think it’s important that Headology isn’t magic. It’s a way of messing with people, yes, but there’s nothing supernatural about it, so it isn’t any more “overriding your agency” than a TV commercial or a political speech is. Manipulative and amoral, yes, but technically anyone can do it.
Always wanted Granny to encounter Captain Carrot. I think what he does is basically a different flavor of Headology (he’s so charismatic and friendly you don’t realize he’s messing with you), and would love to see just how she reacted to figuring that out.
StClair
Yeah, and therapists don’t have any supernatural powers either, but some can still mess you up pretty good (and for years after).
CJ
Huh, would you give an example?
Granny and Nanny don’t believe in fairy tale stories where people have to fill a specific role that cannot change – as depicted in witches abroad (I think).
Tiffany learns that whitching is a lot about cutting old men’s toenails, telling people lies so they move their privy farther from the well is more efficient than explaining about germs, and sitting with the dying.
In his last book, Tiff gets a male apprentice who introduces “sheds” to the men who are no longer working away from home and are getting on their wives nerves.
So where do you see a transgression of ethics worth mentioning?
Halpful
@IllogicalBobcat: the problem is that this part of Discworld logic isn’t from Discworld, it’s from England. Plenty of people *do* apply it to this world.
@Doctor_Who, CJ: There are times when Headology gets uncomfortably close to emotional abuse. Nanny Ogg’s daughters-in-law do her chores out of fear. That’s not healthy. I don’t remember if there’s any clear signs of it crossing the line, but the way the book downplays it grooms people to accept that kind of thing as normal and not speak up when it *does* cross the line.
Tiffany learns about the generally-harmless lies, but she also learns that the girl who was abused has to stay with her abusive family and the dad can’t be punished for his abuse because… I need to look this part up… (oh hey, there’s one book I haven’t read. guess I’m buying that soon 🙂
…in I Shall Wear Midnight, Seth Petty is the abusive father, and Tiffany does try to get rid of him but his wife takes him back (after he almost kills his daughter and does cause her miscarriage). https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Seth_Petty
I don’t have that book, so I can’t look up exactly what happened, but I remember it making a lot of excuses for the abuser. Pratchett has a good understanding of how people end up being abusive, but then buys into the whole “just work around the missing stair” thing. :/
Tiffany is also taught to accept that as a woman and a witch, she won’t get credit for anything if it would threaten Man Feelings, and this is Just How It Is. And we find out that the one girl who was a wizard grew up to regret it. So much reinforcement of outdated gender roles 🙁
The people of Whoville learned to fear the mighty Grinch, for his wrath was such that he would threaten the extinction of an entire holiday, if pushed too far.
He sees you when you’re sleeping, he knows when you’re awake, he’s watching you sleep… silently watching, nude body glistening in the moonlight, as his “heart” grows three sizes…
I really don’t see “She made a face that’s kind of similar to a character in other media who was redeemed” as particularly invective of future moral change no.
That’s a pretty specific thing, and considering since…
I’m not asking why she wants one or thinks she deserves one, but why on Earth would she be expecting it? She’s grinning like she won something. What is happening in her head?
rectilinearpropagation
Mary is thinking that Ruth “changing her ways” is going to include not going after her for being a bigot. She’s fully expecting to be able to get away with her BS like she did while she was blackmailing her.
She doesn’t see Ruth stopping her from being transphobic as something she was *supposed* to be doing as part of her job. She puts that in the same category as slapping her in the face.
This is probably just a statement of the obvious, but putting “not letting me be transphobic” in the same box as “slapping me directly in the face”, is a pretty good indicator that you’re a complete sociopath.
thejeff
It’s a pretty specific thing and she should get a very specific apology for it.
Kryss LaBryn
“I’m sorry you’re such an unmitigated douche. So, so sorry. You have no idea how sorry I am about that.”
Roborat
“I’m sorry I didn’t kill you when I had the chance. And keep it up and I will release the Billy.”
Jhon
expecting it?
There’s this weird Christian thing about forgiving people…
Pat
If it was about forgiving, she’d be the one doing it.
She didn’t really even deserve it that time soooooo….. Ruth has all the blame on that one.
Danigami
Then again, Mary was gonna call her the C-word right before the slap, NOT something deserving of a slap but yeaaaaaaah Mary is not exactly a innocent victim there
Kris
It kinda looked to me like Ruth’d already planned to slap her before that..I mean it’s pretty funny and I’m not losing any sleep over Mary getting hit in the face.
Not turning her in to the competent authorities to have her blackmail dealt with? I mean, she’s just being allowed to stew in her illness, and that’s wrong.
the only reason Ruth shouldn’t do anything for now is it’ll look like sour grapes… and if she’s sincere about shaping up, that means trying to not get fired.
Huh. I’d thought Mary having to undergo the (non-sexual) walk of shame down the hall, with even Sierra glaring angrily at her, would’ve made her rein it in at least a little bit. Shows what I know.
308 thoughts on “Blows”
Ana Chronistic
no, Ruth, the correct answer is “…nah”
no wait, that’s wrong
“nah, bruh”
onetwoduck
“no you’ve deserved everything we’ve done and more and are a toxic blight on Indiana.”
Dana
So toxic, in fact, that as soon as you’re old enough we’ll be getting rid of you by electing you vice president.
Clif
I guess we’ll see how well that works.
StClair
Turns out it actually doesn’t, it just spreads it further.
Pablo360
Isn’t that basically how Teddy Roosevelt became President?
Jon Rich
Yeah. Crooked party bosses in New York wanted to get hm out of their hair. Back then the VP did basically nothing. Then McKinley got shot less than a year into office.
AnvilPro
Mary I want to say assault is bad, but you’re purposely making the most punchable face you can
motorfirebox
Well, she’s a Christian. Punch her in the nose, and then demand forgiveness! And then do it again!
Doctor_Who
Nah, slap her. She’ll turn the other cheek, so you can slap her again.
Haven
If anyone slaps a dick on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
Kris
She’ll turn the other cheek. She basically has to.
Reltzik
…. I don’t think she’s that type of Christian.
Needfuldoer
She’s Whateversbestformeatthemomentarian. A virtually unheard of, yet extremely common sect.
Cholma
Where’s Carla when we need her? 😀
Tawdry Quirks
I’m certain someone similar to Mary served as muse for the German word-compounding genius who invented the word ‘backpfeifengesicht’.
StClair
There’s the word.
zoelogical
is that “face in need of a backhand”
Ana Chronistic
…slap
Doctor_Who
Basically Mary.
Some1
Doesn’t The Grinch change in the end? That bodes well.
inqntrol
And his head grew three times its original size?
Rukduk
Yeah, and they let him off scot free for at least thirty something counts of breaking and entering and burglary and one count of impersonating Santa. Admittedly, Whoville was a giant noise complaint but still, the Grimch broke into everyone’s house. He knows all the layouts of their homes now and the Whos have only his say so that he’ll never pull something like that again.
Some1
Must you ruin everything
Rukduk
Only when I have the sudden realization that something from my childhood is, in retrospect, creepy. Which is more often than I’d like. Maybe I’m slowly becoming a cynical asshole. Maybe I just don’t like Dr. Seus anymore. I honestly don’t know which of those options saddens me more.
Needfuldoer
If the Grinch hated the Christmas noise so much that he went to such lengths to stop it for one day, what did he do during the summer about the Who’s lawn mowers?
SgtWadeyWilson
How The Grinch Salted the Earth and Brought Blight and Famine to all of Whoville is the much darker prequel. /sarcasm
Delicious Taffy
I would read that.
Krys Brynhildr
The Cat in the Hat had boundary issues as well. It just wasn’t obvious until they made him ridiculously fluffy in a live action movie.
Halpful
Yeah… I’m starting to see some anti-boundary aspects of the culture that gave us a lot of otherwise-good literature. It’s a culture where the abusers are forgiven at the expense of the victims, in order to keep the peace. Some of the Discworld books illustrated the way that culture sees itself as necessary. Small towns, where witches play the Ruthless role to keep people in line for their own good. And if they take advantage now and then, it’s okay because they’re the good guys and aren’t we lucky they haven’t started with the cackling and building gingerbread houses? :/ I love the books about the witches, but I don’t agree with Granny Weatherwax on a few important matters of morality.
The way I see it at the moment, that was the best system people could come up with once, but not any more. We’re starting to understand more about neuroscience and learn healthier ways of interacting with people. Boundaries being one of the cornerstones.
In Discworld, if the witches didn’t meddle and trample all over people’s boundaries, those people would make tragic mistakes, being too weak and foolish to do better. In our world, weaknesses can be addressed with medication, therapy and other such treatments. Education can teach people skills to manage their own lives intelligently (although we still can’t *make* someone learn). People have some chance of escaping abusive situations, of choosing to *not* sacrifice themselves for someone else’s idea of the greater good. There’s still a lot of problems, but it gives people the freedom to choose what’s best for themselves, and it turns out there are plenty of areas where the conventional wisdom does more harm than good.
Krys Brynhildr
The funny thing is that I think there’s various examples of the Discworld witches using their head-ology to stop other people who are overstepping other sorts of boundaries and stuff and using unconventional wisdom where conventional wisdom is causing a problem. Which yeah, makes it maybe a bit awkward all around.
IllogicalBobcat
I’m not sure Discworld logic is anymore applicable to this world than Hitchhiker’s Guide logic.
StClair
It’s the establishment of a class, profession, etc who are socially justified in messing with you/overriding your agency “for your own good.” Sometimes it works, sometimes it really doesn’t; and those who have experienced it firsthand tend to have Opinions.
Doctor_Who
Where I think Discworld mostly succeeds is that it doesn’t portray the witches (especially Granny) as unambiguously heroic. They can be rather meddlesome biddies.
They are ultimately good people, yes, but Granny is also a bit of a bully who will show up and ruin your puppet show for fun and would rather be feared than liked, and Nanny is a drunken thief and gossip who tyrannizes her daughters-in-law. Magrat and Agnes are nicer, but that’s because they are more naive and inexperienced, and haven’t learned how to properly manipulate people yet.
I also think it’s important that Headology isn’t magic. It’s a way of messing with people, yes, but there’s nothing supernatural about it, so it isn’t any more “overriding your agency” than a TV commercial or a political speech is. Manipulative and amoral, yes, but technically anyone can do it.
Always wanted Granny to encounter Captain Carrot. I think what he does is basically a different flavor of Headology (he’s so charismatic and friendly you don’t realize he’s messing with you), and would love to see just how she reacted to figuring that out.
StClair
Yeah, and therapists don’t have any supernatural powers either, but some can still mess you up pretty good (and for years after).
CJ
Huh, would you give an example?
Granny and Nanny don’t believe in fairy tale stories where people have to fill a specific role that cannot change – as depicted in witches abroad (I think).
Tiffany learns that whitching is a lot about cutting old men’s toenails, telling people lies so they move their privy farther from the well is more efficient than explaining about germs, and sitting with the dying.
In his last book, Tiff gets a male apprentice who introduces “sheds” to the men who are no longer working away from home and are getting on their wives nerves.
So where do you see a transgression of ethics worth mentioning?
Halpful
@IllogicalBobcat: the problem is that this part of Discworld logic isn’t from Discworld, it’s from England. Plenty of people *do* apply it to this world.
@Doctor_Who, CJ: There are times when Headology gets uncomfortably close to emotional abuse. Nanny Ogg’s daughters-in-law do her chores out of fear. That’s not healthy. I don’t remember if there’s any clear signs of it crossing the line, but the way the book downplays it grooms people to accept that kind of thing as normal and not speak up when it *does* cross the line.
Tiffany learns about the generally-harmless lies, but she also learns that the girl who was abused has to stay with her abusive family and the dad can’t be punished for his abuse because… I need to look this part up… (oh hey, there’s one book I haven’t read. guess I’m buying that soon 🙂
…in I Shall Wear Midnight, Seth Petty is the abusive father, and Tiffany does try to get rid of him but his wife takes him back (after he almost kills his daughter and does cause her miscarriage). https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Seth_Petty
I don’t have that book, so I can’t look up exactly what happened, but I remember it making a lot of excuses for the abuser. Pratchett has a good understanding of how people end up being abusive, but then buys into the whole “just work around the missing stair” thing. :/
Tiffany is also taught to accept that as a woman and a witch, she won’t get credit for anything if it would threaten Man Feelings, and this is Just How It Is. And we find out that the one girl who was a wizard grew up to regret it. So much reinforcement of outdated gender roles 🙁
Delicious Taffy
The people of Whoville learned to fear the mighty Grinch, for his wrath was such that he would threaten the extinction of an entire holiday, if pushed too far.
Sephiroth144
He sees you when you’re sleeping, he knows when you’re awake, he’s watching you sleep… silently watching, nude body glistening in the moonlight, as his “heart” grows three sizes…
Delicious Taffy
How the Grinch Got Arrested!
Zatar
I really don’t see “She made a face that’s kind of similar to a character in other media who was redeemed” as particularly invective of future moral change no.
Roborat
Nope, he died of a massive heart attack.
motorfirebox
Apologize away… but deal still stands!
Sporky
i think it’s ok for ruth to apologize as long she appends it with “but you’re still the worst”
Kris
Well at least they’ve acknowledged it.
Pat
Wait, what does Mary expect an apology for?
Some1
Ruth did hit her once, and that was before her time as arc villain
Pat
That’s a pretty specific thing, and considering since…
I’m not asking why she wants one or thinks she deserves one, but why on Earth would she be expecting it? She’s grinning like she won something. What is happening in her head?
rectilinearpropagation
Mary is thinking that Ruth “changing her ways” is going to include not going after her for being a bigot. She’s fully expecting to be able to get away with her BS like she did while she was blackmailing her.
She doesn’t see Ruth stopping her from being transphobic as something she was *supposed* to be doing as part of her job. She puts that in the same category as slapping her in the face.
Delicious Taffy
This is probably just a statement of the obvious, but putting “not letting me be transphobic” in the same box as “slapping me directly in the face”, is a pretty good indicator that you’re a complete sociopath.
thejeff
It’s a pretty specific thing and she should get a very specific apology for it.
Kryss LaBryn
“I’m sorry you’re such an unmitigated douche. So, so sorry. You have no idea how sorry I am about that.”
Roborat
“I’m sorry I didn’t kill you when I had the chance. And keep it up and I will release the Billy.”
Jhon
expecting it?
There’s this weird Christian thing about forgiving people…
Pat
If it was about forgiving, she’d be the one doing it.
Cephalo the Pod
Ruth slapped (a dick onto) her face back in Book 4 Chapter 4, during the Case of the Whiteboard Ding Dong Bandit.
Kris
She didn’t really even deserve it that time soooooo….. Ruth has all the blame on that one.
Danigami
Then again, Mary was gonna call her the C-word right before the slap, NOT something deserving of a slap but yeaaaaaaah Mary is not exactly a innocent victim there
Kris
It kinda looked to me like Ruth’d already planned to slap her before that..I mean it’s pretty funny and I’m not losing any sleep over Mary getting hit in the face.
Tomas
Having a ding-dong slapped onto her face.
Tomas
Damn, three responses, one minute apart.
butting
Not turning her in to the competent authorities to have her blackmail dealt with? I mean, she’s just being allowed to stew in her illness, and that’s wrong.
ValdVin
Billie, after Sir, has a lot of “what can I solve by punching?” loaded up and ready to go.
Mary’s smile is even creepier up close.
Gordon
“I should not have hit you for openly being a bigot and attempting to blackmail me, Mary”
Gordon
“That was an error on my part. Attempt either of those things again and you will face repercussions with the school administration.”
Khyrin
This. This right there.
the only reason Ruth shouldn’t do anything for now is it’ll look like sour grapes… and if she’s sincere about shaping up, that means trying to not get fired.
Alice Macher
Huh. I’d thought Mary having to undergo the (non-sexual) walk of shame down the hall, with even Sierra glaring angrily at her, would’ve made her rein it in at least a little bit. Shows what I know.
Danni
mary learned nothing!
Zatar
That would imply Mary is capable of change.
Delicious Taffy
I mean, she could get worse.
Zatar
True.
Dean
You don’t need to change when it’s everyone else who’s wrong!
Clif