309

Brainstorming
Posted on October 9, 2021 by David M Willis

309 thoughts on “Brainstorming”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    COME ON JOYCE

    WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU MESS UP IN BULMERIA

    THEN WHAT

    AT WHAT COST

    1. Regalli

      GO DEEPER.

      NO ONE WILL EVER FIND HER IN THE BERMUDA TRIANGLE.

    2. Clif

      Bulmeria will never be the same again.

    3. Eldritchy

      Well she always wanted to be a fighter pilot. She can switch to a space shuttle and there is a whole wide universe to hide in out there.

  2. King Daniel

    Pretty sure Bulmeria’s a fictional country, Joyce.

    1. Adam Black

      Bulmeria is code for srs.

      1. Cholma

        Bulmeria is also a wonderful Call-back to It’s Walky!

    2. Bicycle Bill

      In much the same way that Swaziland renamed itself Eswatini and Czechoslovakia became the Czech Republic, Bulmeria is the new name of either Lower Slobbovia or North Elbonia … I forget which one.

      1. JBento

        I mean, Czechoslovakia didn’t just change name, it actually split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

        1. Jack

          But the Czech Republic actually did change its name to Czechia, so it was almost right.

        2. milu

          no that’s just another name they go by, it’d like saying the USA changed its name to the States.

        3. Felix

          More so it’s not a anglophone nation so it just has a name in local language and an international/english equivalent.

        4. Decidedly Orthogonal

          Czechia is an officially recognized short form acceptable for use in international dealings. Really it’s quite bohemian.

        5. Matthew E Davis

          I see what you did there.

        6. DrunkenNordmann

          Also, you usually hear Czech Republic more often to avoid people confusing Czechia and Chechnya again.

      2. Jon Rich

        Did not expect to find an Elbonia reference here.

  3. ADLegend21

    do NOT waste Sarah’s Sacrifice!

    1. Stephen Bierce

      She was Old Testament before, she can be Old Testament again.

    2. Doctor_Who

      Do you know how long it will take Sarah’s hugs to recharge? This is like five years worth of hugging for her!

    3. Decidedly Orthogonal

      And it is such a HUGe sacrifice too!

      1. Azhrei Vep

        You? You right there? With the blowjob cat? You’re fired.

        1. Decidedly Orthogonal

          Now now, be like Sarah and just hang on a sec.

        2. milu

          ack! no! stop!

    4. Deanatay

      Liz: Aw, I wuv you too, sis!

      Sarah: Gak! Expressions of feelings! My one weakness! No! Must… hold out… for Joyce…

      Liz: *kisses Sarah tenderly on the cheek*

      Sarah: GGNNNNNNHHHH GET OFF GET OFF GET OFFF!!! *pushes Liz away*

      Liz: AHAHAHAH FINALLY FREEE!! So long suckers!! *scarpers*

      Sarah *scrubbing furiously at cheek* Sisters don’t play fair…

      1. Ana Chronistic

        HAHA

        but I imagine Sarah realised what’s at stake and also the sunk cost would have her resist that kiss

  4. Sirksome

    Sure you could thrown away years of friendship because you’re scared. That sounds like a great plan actually.

  5. The Wellerman

    Alex….

    1. Clif

      Alex? No. Joe.

      Joe is the hero we need.

      1. The Wellerman

        No I mean provided Bulmeria’s real, Joyce would’ve met Alex there:

        https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/alex-2/

        1. Thag Simmons

          And provided that old Alex and new Alex are actually different people

        2. milu

          Anna said Mindy said Leslie was supposed to run away to Bulmeria and become a missionary.

          then again she mumbles. (Mindy.)
          then again she’s mean. (Anna.)

  6. Citizen Octopus

    When Joe — OUR JOE is advising you to rope it in on the awkwardness front, you KNOW ya done eff’ed up!

  7. Cephalo the Pod

    Bulmeria.
    That’s a deep cut.

    1. Cephalo the Pod

      Huh, apparently that’s also where Male Alex fled?

      1. RassilonTDavros

        I mean, Bulmeria has never been referenced once in either continuity by someone who wasn’t lying their ass off, IIRC.

        1. Clif

          Are you saying Alex didn’t flee to Bulmeria?

        2. King Daniel

          New headcanon: “fleeing to Bulmeria” is Dumbingverse!Indiana University slang for coming out of the closet.

        3. Clif

          What is wanted by the FBI for cyber crimes slang for?

        4. Thag Simmons

          Being wanted by the CIA for cyber crimes

        5. King Daniel

          Wanted to commit cyber crimes, specifically

        6. Reltzik

          No, that’s wanted by the NSA.

      2. King Daniel

        Regardless of whether Alex and Alex are two separate characters (they’re both tagged under the same name, which leads me to indicate that they are not), we have word of Willis that old-Alex is also trans. Given that Alex is based off of someone Willis knows IRL, who is also trans (and occasionally comments in this very section).

        1. King Daniel

          tl;dr Alex is based off of a real person and is confirmed trans in every incarnation, so “male Alex” probably isn’t the best term to use.

        2. Regalli

          I think the Old Alex/New Alex combined tag is because they were both based off the same real-life person (who is trans,) and not necessarily because they’re meant to be the same in-universe character. IIRC Willis was iffy on the idea at first and since it was a cameo role as a bit part teacher where New Alex would be totally replacing Old Alex, a tag like ‘other Alex’ probably seemed unnecessary and also weird since New Alex better reflects Real Alex.

        3. Jason

          IIRC (and I may not) Willis’ approach is basically “she’s trans, if she’s the same person as before is up to your interpretation”. And personally… I would rather it not be. Partly because transitioning is hard and painful and takes a long time not a weekend, partly because original-flavour Alex was not a good teacher and didn’t seem interested in his students and I don’t like the idea of that being painted as “well he would have been a good teacher without this personal issue” (sometimes someone is just a bad teacher and uninterested in their students), and partly because I find the idea of Alex being treated as a whole new person uncomfortable on a personal level. (I had to disclose my trans status due to a background check with a charity I was doing voluntary work for and my boss literally treated me as a completely different person. I was like “?!?! Nothing has changed here except you know a medical detail which will show on the background check! I am the person you’ve been working with for two months!”)

          But it has purposely been left open to interpretation, so for those who choose to believe that new Alex is just old Alex who is now happy in herself and her life, then fair enough. That’s their interpretation to have and it’s as valid as mine imo.

        4. Plain Marie

          Excellent personal perspective.
          Now i want to go find Alex since I apparently don’t remember them at all!

        5. Plain Marie

          Oops, my gravatar went from Sal to Dorothy. Talk about identity whiplash! Okay, okay, embrace the Dorothy….

        6. Regalli

          Yeah, I think the people who considered it possible for them to be the same person explain it as ‘recently on HRT at the start of the semester and it really started becoming obvious once she shaved,’ with the ‘different person’/Bulmeria lie in that case being an attempt on Alex’s part to stave off questions from students, though it clearly wouldn’t for faculty and such. (And honestly if that were the case, I could see why a recently-out teacher wouldn’t want to field a dozen Trans 101 questions from 18-year-olds in a conservative-leaning state.) Does still have to grapple with the change in demeanor, though, and yeah, if you’re not comfortable with ‘worse teacher while closeted,’ that is fair.

  8. Kyrik Michalowski

    On the one hand, I don’t think keeping Liz around will help much with the Becky situation.
    On the other hand, I respect Sarah’s attempts to help and her sacrifice.

    So what are the odds that Becky will be too hurt to listen to an apology?

    1. Kyrik Michalowski

      What the hell? Did the gravatars switch again?

      1. Kyrik Michalowski

        Nope, just typed something wrong.

        1. milu

          oh snap i just noticed the username in the thread-initial posts have a slightly bigger font size?? by like 1 point??
          …i mean …this changes absolutely nothing… but… somehow… the world just tastes a little different all of a sudden

        2. Decidedly Orthogonal

          I’d prefer they were underlined or drop shadowed, or a thread tree (like reddit), or something, to be able to follow OP’s and such. Font +1 /helps/ and… may be new, but it’s pretty subtle. I sure didn’t see it before either.

    2. woobie

      Sarah is secretly happy to hug her sister.

      1. Opus the Poet

        My mind-canon, she loves her sister (as a sister, let’s not get Hentai-weird) and has been wanting to do this for years…

        1. woobie

          Exactly!

    3. Sirksome

      Too hurt to listen? That would be total bullshit to me. Whatever Becky is feeling is completely valid but to not even hear Joyce out? Putting aside what’s most likely over a decade of friendship and just focusing on the last 4 months, that would be a malicious rejection on Becky’s part. I’d actually start hating her. Joyce at the very least deserves a chance to talk if she has the guts to actually try that is.

      1. He Who Abides

        I mean, Rebecca refused to listen when Joyce said something before (during the party), because possible lesbian sexy-time and “I’ve had it worse, so you can’t question these things!”. That said, and I loathe giving that brat credit for anything, I doubt that Rebecca would be that petulant of a child.

        1. Rabid Rabbit

          You know, I get where your insistence on calling her “Rebecca” comes from, but I’d feel remiss if I didn’t point out that the only other person who’s ever called her that is Toedad.

        2. RassilonTDavros

          Where does HWA’s insistence on that point come from, again?

        3. Rabid Rabbit

          … I actually don’t have a citation, but I’ve always assumed it’s due to Becky calling Dorothy “Dottie,” despite Dorothy not being a nickname person, though too nice to say anything about it.

          Unless they’re the troll who spent months over at It’s Walky calling Walky “David.”

        4. Rabid Rabbit

          Or was it “Dave,” either way, I did my utmost to wipe those posts from my mind…

        5. He Who Abides

          Yes, it’s because of “Dotty”. I don’t respect bullies, and that’s what she’s being.

        6. He Who Abides

          And I’ve always called him “Walky”. Honestly, I keep forgetting that he has an actual first name.

        7. miz

          Please, please find me a link where Dorothy objects to being called Dotty. Every time I’m around when this topic comes up I ask, and no one has ever given me a citation. I’ve reread all the comics where they’re tagged together, I’ve searched through likely storylines, and I am still unable to find any occasion where Dorothy has any negative reaction to the nickname whatsoever. If it actually exists I am happy to be wrong but I am begging someone to actually show it because I really cannot remember this happening at all.

        8. milu

          she’s never objected to it. Abides just really doesn’t like Becky, which ok, and somehow assumes Dorothy doesn’t like being called Dotty, which we have no evidence for. that being said, Becky doesn’t have a problem with “Rebecca” that we know of i think?

        9. Spencer

          Yeah Dorothy’s never once objected, or inferred it’s something she dislikes or doesn’t appreciate.

          It’s such a weird thing to harp on.

        10. anonymsly

          My feeling is that if Dorothy wanted to be called Dotty, she would introduce herself as such, and more than one person in the universe would call her that. But people (except Becky) call her Dorothy, and she introduced herself as Dorothy. Becky also calls everyone else by their real name: Joe isn’t Joey, Dina isn’t Deens, Sarah isn’t Sar, Robin isn’t Robbie, Joyce isn’t JoyJoy, etc.

          Becky uses ‘Dotty’ in my opinion most likely either because it feels like infantilizing a girl she dislikes, or she likes being allowed to basically call said girl Crazy Lady without anyone seeming to care. (‘Dotty’ being old-timey slang for crazy as much as it’s old-timey pet name of Dorothy.) Or both.

          Not to speak for HWA, but Becky’s use of ‘Dotty’ is super annoying to me because it’s a rule that we call people what they want to be called. How they introduce themselves is how they want to be called. If someone tells me ‘Hi, I’m Margo’ I don’t independently decide to call them Molly. Anthony doesn’t spontaneously become Tony. It would feel disrespectful to me. Becky feels disrespectful to me every time she uses Dotty instead of Dorothy; Dorothy feels to me like she’s tolerating disrespect, not enjoying a nickname.

        11. Spencer

          Well she comes up with nicknames sometimes, but you’re right that she doesn’t stick to them as she has with Dorothy and I can see why it would come off negatively given their existing dynamic, but I do think if we were meant to think of it negatively we would have gotten some inference that Dorothy disliked it.

          Soooo Becky’s giving her a pet name for A Reason Perhaps Sinister, but if I’m right about what I wrote below on how these two think about each other, I think Becky’s doing it because a cute nickname that Becky insists on will make Dorothy think Becky is cool and confident.

        12. a/snow/mous/e

          I assume Becky started calling her “Dotty” to get on Dorothy’s nerves,
          but it’s true that Dorothy never really complained about it and it might not bother her at all.

        13. MrSmith

          To anonymsly: Yes, exactly this.

        14. Regalli

          I clearly missed why the insistence at some point, but because of the Ross connection (and the whole bit where Becky’s Performance of Gender leans butchwise and less ‘proper Christian woman’ and I think her preference for a nickname over the formal and feminine ‘Rebecca’ ties into that) I read all of HWA’s comments referring to her like that in my internal Ross Line voice.

        15. He Who Abides

          You didn’t miss anything, I’d never actually explained it before now.

      2. Jason

        “Too hurt to listen” isn’t “will not forgive her”. “Too hurt to listen”, to me, sounds like “is feeling too much emotion right now to be emotionally capable of giving Joyce a fair hearing”. And that’s emotions being emotions, not a conscious choice to try to hurt Joyce.

        I’m not saying I personally agree or disagree that Becky is too hurt to listen, I don’t know. But if she is I’d view that as valid. We’ve seen many characters at one time or another be too upset (in various ways) to continue an interaction- and it’s seldom been the last time we’ve seen them interact. Even Sarah and Raidah, who I can’t imagine ever patching things up, actually spoke on semi-cordial terms after their first interactions (bullying and punching) left Sarah too upset to handle it at that point.

  9. Yotomoe

    Golly gee I wish I could hug Liz too.

    1. DailyBrad

      Tag in if Sarah has to rest her arms.

    2. Sirksome

      I’m sure Sarah would probably be happier if you were hugging Liz instead too. Maybe even Liz based on her expression in the last panel. Everybody wins!

    3. woobie

      You could… draw it.

      1. Yotomoe

        C’mon I’m not THAT desperate! Also I hate drawing myself. I look different everytime I do it.

        1. He Who Abides

          You could get someone else to draw it.

        2. Clif

          That way no-one knows it’s you unless you tell them.

        3. Clif

          Alternatively, you could draw a handsome dude, tell us it’s you, and we’d never know the difference.

        4. Yotomoe

          😛 naw, I’d cringe if I drew myself looking like anything other than a big dumb goofball.

        5. milu

          btw did you draw your gravatar? is it supposed to be you? i’ve always assumed so

        6. Yotomoe

          It is in fact me. It’s super dated though. That’s like…from my early college years. Or late highschool years. I can’t even remember. Not that I look different. I even still have that hat, I just don’t wear it anymore.

        7. milu

          nice =) i assume you also sometimes aren’t pulling your tongue.

        8. Yotomoe

          True but I do do it a lot. Bleh.

        9. zee

          You could draw someone else doing it. Maybe someone who’s also thicc, like joyce

        10. Yotomoe

          Hmm yeah that does sound more my speed 😀

        11. a/snow/mous/e

          Draw a generic, YCH chibi-person hugging Joyce?

        12. Yotomoe

          Hugging Joyce? I thought we were the coalition of hugging Liz. But naw I don’t wanna do that either haha. YCH stuff works for other people but honestly if I can I like keeping all my stuff semi-canon to the series itself. I mean obviously my interpretation of characters is incorrect but I try to keep it as grounded in universe as i can.

    4. A Red Balloon

      Hmmm…. have you ever experimented with restraint stuff in your art?

      1. Yotomoe

        Like bondage? Or just holding back my desire to draw curvy women. Because I refuse to show restraint in that regard!

        1. A Red Balloon

          Well, I guess bondage. I mean, Sarah is already restraining Liz. How can you expand upon that?

          Maybe some tickling or something?

        2. Yotomoe

          Not a big fan of tickling to be honest. And in terms of bondage I’m only somewhat into it. And mostly just the artistry of it. Like Shibari bondage. Looks super pretty. I’m just bad at drawing it Though I do technically have a pair of characters that are my go to bondage couple .
          So I guess to answer your question. Not really.

        3. A Red Balloon

          I guess I like it because I like seeing smiling faces full of joy with no escape….

          But anyway, what do you think is next for Liz?

        4. Yotomoe

          She will continue to be hugged by her sister until this apology thing happens or whatever. Then she will take a pilgrimage back to her natural habitat of ball state.
          Unless you’re asking what will be the next Liz thing I draw which I dunno. She’s pretty cute though so I can imagine I’ll draw more of her before this arc is over.

        5. Clif

          We applaud your lack of restraint.

        6. Wizard

          That is a desire that should definitely be indulged.

  10. RassilonTDavros

    Joyce’s face in panel 5 says it all. She has no idea where to begin.

  11. Whatevsman

    Joyce, you’ve hurt your friend, which in turn, causes you pain. You’re confronting a lie that you’ve been telling a friend for years, a lie that pertains to a significant matter in your life. And that sucks.

    But did you consider the pain Sarah is feeling hugging her sister right now?

    1. Clif

      For years? What?

      1. a/snow/mous/e

        I guess it’s just hyperbole to make the last sentence even funnier in its contrast?

    2. He Who Abides

      Years? Didn’t her crisis of faith only start sometime last semester, or is there something in the Patreon comics that I’m missing?

    3. Norah

      Not years. Just a few months, pos

      1. Norah

        Possibly only since the last kidnapping, though it was coming on before. Not years.

      2. Regalli

        It was definitely at a breaking point, and Joyce was hiding the fact that she didn’t go to church one weekend, pre-kidnapping.

        It is interesting that, per the Rich Mullins dream and Booster’s subsequent psychoanalysis, Joyce is now wondering if she EVER actually felt God or if her faith was built entirely on the structure of church and anxiety. However, that doesn’t mean she was lying to Becky all this time – she thought it was true, and she believed all the things their parents told them, and put a LOT of effort into crushing any doubt she might have had. Her faith was never as strong or as flexible as Becky’s, but I don’t think that was lying any more than Becky first realizing she was attracted to girls and denying to herself that she was gay would have been. (Obviously, given the choice anyone would want to marry their best friend, because they understand each other more than any guy could. That’s not gay, that’s just logic. Anyone would think that. Not saying there’s any textual evidence Becky thought that, but it’s a pretty common phase of Gay Realization even without being raised in a violently homophobic community.)

  12. BBCC

    Sarah is an icon of an older sibling to which all older siblings should aspire.

    1. Regalli

      Indeed. We shall honor her sacrifice with tributary noogies and heckling to younger siblings everywhere.

      1. He Who Abides

        Oh, come on! I get teased enough already.

  13. DailyBrad

    I do like that they’re all being firm with her. Like, this doesn’t have to be any bigger a thing than it already is, better to face this head-on.

  14. Robert Thompson

    Okay, interesting (and promising) to note that Dorothy did NOT walk away after her “disappointing” line, and is trying to help get Joyce to fix things. Happy to see she didn’t just bail.

    1. Bladeglory

      Yeah I’m happy to see she’s still around too. Honestly thought she left with Becky after side-eyeing Joyce like that.

    2. segnosaur

      I don’t think Dorothy is the type that would have “bailed”. She cares too much and is an all-around decent person.

      So she was either going to stay in the room (to talk to Joyce), or she was going to go after Becky to make sure she didn’t do anything rash and/or try to sooth things over on her end.

      1. Jamie

        She isn’t. But a lot of commenters were mad at her, so they expected the worst.

        1. powerpowerpow

          I’ve noticed that people in the comments tend to do that a lot. I feel like it helps to understand that this is a comic strip, and that means we’re watching these people’s lives literally a minute at a time. If someone had to watch my entire life based on one-minute sections and then got 24 hours to analyze and pick apart every single thing I say and do, they would HATE me.

          I feel like the only reason I don’t hate a lot of the popular-to-hate-on characters is because I binge-read the first 8-9 years of DoA, and a lot of minor things that really irritated other readers just kinda few under the radar for me.

      2. Needfuldoer

        If anything, I would have expected her to follow Becky.

        1. Azhrei Vep

          Same. The only reason I’d expect her to leave is to try to go comfort Becky, and maybe try to talk her into coming back to talk things out.

    3. Agemegos

      I expected her to stay with Becky.

  15. Dave Van Domelen

    Liz looks like one of those cat memes where the cat has Regrets.

    1. RassilonTDavros

      Cat with integrity, no regrets

  16. Imogen

    Joyce is so closeted bi for Dorothy it’s embarrassing.

    1. Agemegos

      Yotomoe is not embarrassed by it.

      1. Yotomoe

        To be fair I ship everyone with everyone so you might as well say they’re all bi or pan or whatever when I draw them.

        1. Nono

          I know you’re more of a ladies person, but any prominent MxM ships then?

        2. Yotomoe

          I like DannyxSalxWalky (but there is a honey in there so there’s some leeway)
          While not a ship per say I am into the idea that Asher thinks Walky looks pretty hot and would be down to get with him if the opportunity arose.
          Ethan and Danny woulda been cute but Danny definitely burned THAT bridge.

          I’ll admit I’m not the biggest MxM guy and will honestly probably never get around to drawing it. Mostly cuz I don’t like drawing guys in general! (You may notice how very very rare I actually draw guys. To the point where it’s actually a handicap and I try to force myself to do it). But I’m open to the idea of it for sure. (It also doesn’t help that there’s not a huge amount of prominent male characters, and even less that I find all that attractive (cuz I’m straight :P)).

          A bit unrelated but I am exceedingly fond of trios featuring bisexual people with one guy and one girl though, meaning I’m kinda down for shipping Danny with any other two people, male or female (or non-binary if booster or Malaya’s down).

          So I guess the answer to your question is “not really but also yes”

        3. Spencer

          I have the perfect recipe for you.

          Danny/Sal/Sayid

        4. Yotomoe

          That could be fun. (tbh not the biggest fan of Sayid’s tattoos but I can overlook that for the aesthetic) Also looking through the tags, my dude’s only appeared 7 times in 6 years. And not once in the last 2 years. And in that time he’s only had 7 lines. (Obviously this is not counting slipshines)

        5. Spencer

          I miss him so much.

    2. RassilonTDavros

      I mean it’s only embarrassing if you spent the first eighteen years of your life being indoctrinated with bullshit about same-sex attraction being eeeeeeevil.

      Which Joyce did.

  17. Endplanets

    “The David Willis story: Why I’m not a playboy surgeon.”

  18. Joe Moose

    Does Bulmeria have a fish-slapping song? No? Then Finland will do nicely.

    1. Clif

      I hear that the African Haddock is the official fish-slapping fish of Bulmeria.

      1. Thag Simmons

        Haddock is a saltwater fish from the north atlantic and Bulmeria is a land-locked african state.

        1. Needfuldoer

          That’s why fish-slapping is only performed on special occasions there.

        2. Thag Simmons

          No, I’m saying they heard wrong. Bulmeria has fish (most countries do) just not Haddock. No Country with self-respect makes their national fish slapping fish something they have to import.

          If I remember my fish slapping geography right, their national slapping fish is the African Tigerfish (Hydrocynus Vittatus) which was obviously chose it based on how cool it looks rather than how good it is as a slapping fish.

        3. Plain Marie

          Heehee! I love this whole side thread!

        4. Decidedly Orthogonal

          Wait wut? Were they eastern bloc emigrés or something? I would have sworn Bulmeria was a slavic state of the Holy Roman Empire or pre-Russian Empire

        5. OBBWG

          I thought Bulmeria was located between Latveria and Markovia.

          That said, the African Haddock is the correct fish for their fish-slapping. This is difficult to explain given that, unlike the European Haddock, the African Haddock is not migratory.

        6. King Daniel

          I was under the impression Bulmeria shared borders with Ruritania and Thingley, myself.

        7. OBBWG

          Well, duh! I was thinking of the pre-EU/Soviet collapse borders. Thank you for the correction.

    2. Sunny

      Finland, Finland, Finland. The country where I quite want to be.

  19. Derek

    it’s been a somewhat odd past couple of days, seeing people say that Joyce NEEDS to apologize for what shebsaid. I’m on the camp of “Joyce was definitely calling herself stupid”.

    I’m also someone who grew incredibly disillusioned with church and I still have a lot of nasty things to say about it and the people in it. And my church was “nice” in comparison to a lot of the more hardcore evangelical ones. Joyce was part of a church that was one step removed from being a true cult. She has the most right to say that was a whole lot bullshit.

    I’ll admit I’m biased against Becky though, whose “wackiness” has become really grating. In comic time, today she made a joke about Sarah being kidnapped. A huge traumatic event that ended with two people dead, and she’s cracking jokes about it? bleh

    1. segnosaur

      I agree that Joyce was calling herself stupid.

      But, I do think she at least owes Becky an explanation. (Sometimes its good to be contrite and apologize even if you technically didn’t do anything wrong.)

      Of course there is one thing that Joyce does need to apologize for.. and that’s lying to Becky for the past few months about still being christian. She should have confided in Becky long before he christmas break.

      1. Axel

        I agree she should explain, even if it’s not something she “has” to do, and also an explanation doesn’t have to be an apology. Like she can explain why she was saying those things and in that particularly angry and rude way, and say part of why she was venting was because she didn’t think anyone who could be hurt was around, and none of that’s an apology.

      2. Reltzik

        I’ll agree that an apology is in order… even if it’s an “I was just talking about myself, not you, but I still didn’t think about how it would sound to anyone else and that was insensitive of me” apology.

        I’m… thinking that maybe being in the closet for a while isn’t something that one is obligated to apologize for.

    2. He Who Abides

      I agree that Joyce doesn’t owe Rebecca an apology, especially since she never apologizes for jack-shit (because “It’s pErfOrmAtIvE!” excuses anything, apparently). That said, a queer character getting an apology for something that they’ve done themselves in the past (or something not as bad as something they’ve done) seems to be the order of business sometimes.

      1. Daibhid C

        Deep sigh.

        “It’s performative” doesn’t excuse what Becky says. What “excuses” what Becky says is that, generally speaking, nobody actually gets upset by it. And on the one occasion when Dorothy did, she … well, no, I guess she didn’t apologise, but she walked it back, and Dorothy accepted this.

        So my take on whether Joyce needs to apologise is that one one level, we don’t know if she does or not, because Becky backed out before we found out if she need Joyce to apologise. If she doesn’t, cool.

        On another level, though, whatever affect Joyce’s comments have had on Becky, the thought that they might have upset her has certainly done a number on Joyce. So Joyce probably needs Joyce to apologise.

    3. Thag Simmons

      Joyce needs to at the very least try to explain the situation to Becky.

      1. Agemegos

        It is interesting to note the origins of the word “apology”. Without, of course, mistaking its etymology for its current meaning.

        1. Azhrei Vep

          Ooooh, cool! I love me some etymology lessons.

    4. Sam

      She doesn’t need to apologise for being mad or changing views, but she needs to apologise for unintentionally hurting Becky’s feelings and explain that she doesn’t think Becky is an idiot and meant she personally is an idiot. Apologies aren’t just for when you are *wrong* but also when you *hurt someone and didn’t mean to* because your intention came across wrong or it read as an insult or because the way you phrased it was unkind to a lot of people even if you are really trying to insult yourself.

      The apology socially helps defuse things emotionally and opens people up to listening to you so that it is easier to explain the logic and have it be accepted.

      1. Spencer

        I mean, should Joyce be responsible for Becky’s pain, when Becky is feeling pain because:

        – She’s appropriating Joyce’s anger towards her own upbringing as something that hurts her.

        – She only heard this because she barged into a private conversation where Joyce got to be angry for the first time.

        – She’s unwilling to let Joyce be anything other than the Joyce she always had, which is to say that Joyce is only allowed to change in Becky-approved ways.

        I don’t think Joyce needs to apologize, I think Joyce needs all five of the more mature, more stable, more worldly (fnar fnar) people around her to shut up for five seconds and let her explain herself, and none of them are willing to do that because they can’t process Joyce as anything other than what they want her to be.

        I dunno, this whole scenario has been painful to me because I don’t think Joyce did anything wrong, but other people decided she did so she has to fix it for them while they tell her she’s a bad person who let them down.

        Because that exact scenario happens to me all the time and once I get done telling them they’re wrong about me, my actions and my motivations, well they don’t even apologize. It’s fine, it’s good to know Spencer isn’t actually a worthless shitfucking trash monster who hates children and freedom, but I don’t need to apologize because I decided you were acting like one and therefore every action I took is completely justified.

        And I just can’t live with that anymore. I can’t bring myself to care about people who are only willing to treat me like an actual human being conditionally.

      2. Regalli

        Yeah, just from what Becky heard out of context, Joyce was in fact saying ‘I believe in God because I’m an idiot.’ Like, the exact line before intervention was ‘I believe in God! I’m an idiot who thinks there’s some magical wizard who loves me.’ It is totally understandable that Becky might read that as a dig against all believers, as evidenced by the fact that Liz actually believes atheists are smarter than religious people. (And what Becky appears to have come in on was the line ‘I think anything matters and that any bad stuff that happens to me is part of some grand design to teach me life lessons instead of just being being friggin’ random bullshit.’ Which is just about the worst possible thing she COULD have walked in on – both because things like the sky sea line that precede it make it SO MUCH CLEARER Joyce is talking about herself primarily, and because that’s going to hit Becky especially hard the day after her mom’s birthday.) They’re missing key context, but Becky and Dorothy aren’t contorting Joyce’s words to come to this conclusion – they’re taking them at face value, and Becky’s too absorbed in the initial hurt to think about all the other factors we’re accounting for as commenters looking in. The fact that Joyce’s words SHOULDN’T be taken at face value here doesn’t make Becky and Dorothy wrong to do so, because the only parts we know they heard are the ones that apply very much and very directly to Becky.

        I’m not certain I’d phrase it as an apology per se (though Joyce is probably going to lead with it, because JOYCE did not mean to hurt Becky and is so clearly horrified to realize she did,) but she definitely does have to explain to Becky what she heard, that she doesn’t think less of Becky for believing, that she’s been afraid to tell Becky in part because she’s only barely been able to admit it to herself until the last few days, and that as Joyce has been realizing she maybe doesn’t believe she’s also realized how much effort she put into resolving contradictions in the Bible that Becky never worried about, and how she feels dumb about that specifically. All the context that Becky didn’t have because she only overheard the worst part, basically.

        1. Seregiel

          Why is she owed an explanation for something she wouldn’t have heard if they hadn’t intentionally tracked Joyce down because they didn’t respect her choices? Becky wanted to “track down the usurper” which considering how she interacted with Dorothy upon meeting, and taking words at face value… was not a good intent. Particularly when not invited. Dorothy also went to do it because she didn’t like Joyce missing class.

          Don’t get me wrong – it would be nice and help things a long. But this is totally a Becky, you go first situation to me. Especially considering Joyce ran after Becky after getting kissed without permission because Becky came first to her and she realized something was wrong. Becky can be angry, but she can also realize she over stepped and got bit in the process and do some work to see what that was about. Becky wouldn’t have heard anything if she has respected Joyces choice.

        2. Regalli

          I think at the moment:
          1) Joyce is clearly terrified of the friendship being over now that Becky knows, and she’s been terrified of this moment since before she was definitely an atheist, and before what Becky said at the party reinforced her fear that ‘Becky’s been through so much worse and SHE still feels God, she still believes, something must be wrong with me.’ (Whether Becky was judging Joyce’s very nihilistic mood or the idea that she might be losing faith in general, the ‘you’ve been at odds with our parents for like thirty seconds’ line definitely has shades of Rich Mullins Dream Becky’s ‘I’ve got a dead mom and an evil dad and I feel God when I pray’, and I think Joyce took it that way and internalized it later.) She needs to talk to Becky to reinforce to herself that the friendship ISN’T over, or her anxiety will in fact make this worse and extremely awkward. And, yeah, it needs to happen fast because that anxiety’s already going into Avoidance Mode, which in this case means ‘Joyce should go talk to Becky’.

          2) I don’t think Joyce has to apologize for being an atheist. I do think she has to be careful not to fall into the newly-deconverted Edgy Atheist mode, because some of her friends are religious and she WILL lose Becky’s friendship if she ACTUALLY starts thinking like Liz that atheists are smarter than religious people. She needs a space to talk through those feelings, including a LOT of anger at her upbringing, but Becky’s faith is unlikely to change because it’s been much more flexible than Joyce’s. (Though I could eventually see Joyce and Becky talking through their hangups about premarital hanky-panky when Joyce isn’t upset and lashing out, since it’s clearly a major and harmful anxiety on both their parts to even HAVE a sex drive.) Since Joyce values Becky’s friendship, she has to make sure she can separate out ‘our congregation, who hurt me deeply’ and ‘systemic Christianity which does a lot of harm’ from ‘individual religious people who don’t use their faith as cudgels.’ Sierra’s religious, but she’s also a polyamorous bisexual and one of the most well-adjusted, genuinely chill, and comfortable-with-herself people in the hall.

          3) The ‘so I’m an atheist’ talk is inevitable. I get why Joyce wasn’t ready to tell Becky, and I don’t remotely blame her because I didn’t think Becky would take it well even under good circumstances, but it has been inevitable because Joyce loves Becky and was clearly not comfortable hiding it. It’s out in the world now, it needs to be discussed.

          And while Becky’s jokey-not-really jealousy is not remotely good, Joyce only decided not to introduce Liz to Becky and Dorothy after they’d left Walky and Lucy. Becky could not have possibly known Joyce was actively avoiding an introduction. I think she may genuinely have thought meeting Liz was fair game, since Joyce’s first impulse does tend to be ‘all my friends should be friends’ and skipping class in the first week for breakfast with a surprise visiting friend who’s only here for a bit is in the realm of ‘unusual for Joyce but not inherently worrying’ reasoning. (Unless you’re Dorothy. But as a one-off, it’s not completely out of line because of the time-limited nature of the friend and the low odds of Major Cannot Miss Class-ness.) Becky’s jealousy is still wildly overpossessive, but finding Joyce wasn’t completely out of line in itself (which is probably why Dorothy was willing to go along with it.)

        3. milu

          oh yeah, very good point re Joyce being normally very welcoming of her friends mingling and meeting each other, and her initial impulse was in fact to introduce Liz to everyone, then she realized “wait a minute, i don’t want to do that”. and switched to wacky sitcom logic as she sometimes does. (it’s almost as if, sure there’s no god out there to cleverly ordain life lessons around her but she makes these monumental freudian slips that all but guarantee some hard awakenings or confrontations.)

          doesn’t change the facts, but it makes Becky & Dorothy running to find her feel less sinister and i like that because that aligns better with my affect towards these characters. ah, the pleasant feeling of cognitive dissonance resolving. no one change my opinion again, please. (jk)

        4. Regalli

          I’m also pretty sure the scene with the four outside the building is after class (thus Becky’s line about having lunch with the newlyweds.) Entirely possible the thought process was ‘oh Sarah and Joyce went to get breakfast with Sarah’s sister! So they skipped class, but they didn’t invite us because Sarah’s the sister and Joyce is the roommate and friend and they knew Dorothy would be all fussy at the thought of skipping. Let’s go hang out, maybe get lunch.’ No nefarious intent, no reason to assume that WASN’T the case, and while Becky was being jealous, the Skeletor bit reads way more like her performative jealousy, not the genuine insecurity. Probably after a token joke the three of them would’ve settled into Jesus-loving gals being pals (and also Dorothy and Sarah are there) in Becky’s mind. (This could also be why Becky doesn’t appear to see Lucy as a threat, but also that Joyce and Lucy haven’t interacted much one-on-one that we’ve seen.)

        5. Spencer

          I don’t think the intent was nefarious so much that it’s still boundary breaking on Becky’s part, because Becky so far has never really had a scenario where popping in uninvited is something Joyce would resent.

          Like if it were just the Skeletor bit that’d still definitely open to humourous interpretations, it’s just Becky saying “I wanna meet Liz and show her who’s boss!” in a funny way, but the next strip has Dorothy outright call it wildly over-possessive, and Becky does not disagree. She thinks it’s funny, she thinks Dorothy is boring for not just doing what she wants (which gets juxtaposed with Dorothy still having the hots for Walky), she outright says she’s being selfish and it’s fine, because she’s unapologetically her and in this case that means being Joyce’s Cool Christian Friend whenever she wants.

    5. Jason

      I agree that Joyce was almost definitely talking about herself in her venting.

      I also agree that she was fine to do so, it wasn’t doing anything wrong, and she frucking well deserves and needs to be able to vent.

      I ALSO think saying “I’m sorry that my venting caused you pain” to her best friend is the right course of action here. Saying sorry is not exclusive to having screwed up. You can stand by your actions and still apologise for the negative outcome of those actions. “I needed to do x, but I’m sorry that resulted in you getting hurt” is entirely valid.

      I don’t think Joyce should apologise for what she said- but for causing pain with those words. (And also explain where her words were coming from and directed.)
      Unfortunately, these are teenagers, and *gestures to title*.

      1. Seregiel

        Normally I’d agree with that but the entire basis of Becky overhearing it was Becky and Dorothy deciding they got to be arbitrators of Joyce’s choices and go where they weren’t invited. They didn’t randomly decide to go near Joe’s room. This wasn’t an accident in any way but Joyce being out about that religious facet before she was comfortable with it because she’s still grappling with it. That to me means Becky not only owes an apology for infringing on a social interaction she was obviously not invited to but she does NOT get to play victim by storming off. Feelings aren’t rational and she can totally be hurt but in this case? Becky got bit by being rude and demeaning of autonomy. If it needs to be fixed, Becky can go back to Joyce because despite her faults Joyce has always gone to and been there for Becky which is part of the entire reason her faith has crumbled.

        1. Jason

          Yeah, imo Becky also really needs to examine her possessiveness of Joyce because that’s… it’s not okay. It’s gross in any relationship. It’s just not okay. I suspect it’s coming from a place of insecurity but that doesn’t make it acceptable and she needs to be aware of that. Right now, she is not aware of the fact that she’s constantly trampling on Joyce’s personal boundaries with Joyce having other female friends- in part, I think, because neither is Joyce. (I might be misremembering but I don’t think she’s had any issues with Joyce dating a dude- Ethan- or wanting to be with Jacob, so it does seem to be around her having female friends. Possibly because of where Becky’s feelings went from being friends? I dunno.)
          It’s something both of them need to see and Becky address, but I don’t think this is going to be the thing to bring that awareness.

          But yeah, Becky doing something wrong doesn’t change the fact that Joyce’s words hurt her. And that IS something Joyce is aware of. I really want to emphasise that I don’t think Joyce should be apologising for her behaviour or words (in how they impact Becky- maybe an apology to Joe but that’s not the point rn). But basically saying “I’m sorry that you were hurt by my venting”, I still think would be the right move- and it would be totally fine if she followed it with “but it was me working through my own issues and was never supposed to be about you in any way.”

          I guess what I’m saying is that Joyce acknowledging Becky’s pain and that she wishes that hadn’t happened is good, but not at the cost of Joyce claiming autonomy and validation of her own feelings and pain. Is that- does that make sense?

        2. Spencer

          Heck yeah it does.

    6. thejeff

      I’ve said it before, but if we’re all reiterating stances:
      I think Joyce was calling her past self stupid, but she was doing so indirectly by mocking believers in general – which would include Becky. She doesn’t actually think Becky is stupid, but Becky got caught in the blast radius.

      She said something she didn’t really mean in her anger and frustration and she hurt her best friend.

      1. Needfuldoer

        Exactly this. Becky deserves an apology, and I think she’s also owed an explanation because to her this is coming completely out of left field. Right now she’s got to be reeling with questions like “how long has the Joyce I’ve known been a lie” and “does she really think I’m an idiot”.

  20. segnosaur

    At least Joyce seems to have regained some of her color.

    1. Clif

      Life after death. Proof positive.

    2. Reltzik

      And verbal ability.

    3. Thag Simmons

      system has rebooted successfully

  21. Kim

    I do love the face Liz is making

  22. Rabid Rabbit

    What the fuck does Joyce have stuck in her mouth in panel 1???

    1. King Daniel

      A death stick.

      What, how’d you think she returned from ghost-dom otherwise?

    2. tyersome

      Her foot (up to somewhere past the knee)?

    3. Nono

      It’d a reverse triangle smile.

      A Dorito Frown.

  23. Spencer

    Managed to wake up in time, now to do this and then go back and pass out again.

    (don’t worry it’s all from yesterday, I did not write all of this in under an hour)

    Content Warning: Mention of sexual assault in the first bullet point.

    I probably should have done this previously instead of arguing constantly with folks who are reading a comic differently than my own interpretation, the most unforgivable of sins, so here’s my laying out every reason why I fully believe Joyce is talking about herself and her own trauma and frustrations with her now dead belief in God, as opposed to her lashing out at believers in what is being perceived as Joyce running with a fairly standard teenage atheist script.

    1. The contrast between Joyce and Liz.

    In this strip here…

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/lookitme/

    … and in the one prior, Liz is clearly relishing in the act of just ripping on the existence of Christianity. Believing makes you stupid, you’re talking to your imaginary friend so he’ll give you what you want, actually all these traditions were just stolen from other religions and cultures so you’re praying to a big patchwork of beliefs and acting like they’re yours alone. All the while she’s loving this shit and making cartoon faces to underline how blatantly she doesn’t care about religious institutions and their practitioners. Every single thing Liz is saying here is what I said when I stopped believing, because you never hate anything as much as something you used to love.

    Joyce, whose faces here and in the next strip are apprehensive, confused, frustrated, and ready to burst (because this is a visual medium where the art informs our interpretation of the characters and their actions and thought processes), believed in the bible as the inerrant word of God and that there was actually a giant veil of water surrounding the earth that protected it from the sun’s rays and let humans live to 900 years old.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/cobwebs/

    When prompted to start talking about how religion is stupid, Joyce picks the stupidest part imaginable: the one Becky was willing to throw away with no hesitation because it didn’t matter, but Joyce also believed in along with everything else. Becky also thinks the sky canopy is stupid. So do Danny and Billie. Sierra too, actually. You could probably make a good case for Mary.

    Liz continues her own behaviour for one more panel, and then in the final panel Joyce drops what everyone here needs to recognize as Joyce getting resentful because she used to think God let her be drugged and nearly raped and had a gun pointed at her face as part of a grand design to teach her a valuable lesson.

    And then in the next strip’s first panel…

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/idiot/

    …Joyce, who we just established is getting personal, is talking about how she was stupid for thinking there was a God who loved her, and we know that Joyce eventually realized she never heard God’s voice to begin with and, specifically, she felt guilty that Becky has a dead mom and an evil dad, but still heard his voice. Let’s dive into that.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/03-sometimes-the-sky-was-so-far-away/feel/

    2. God never answered Joyce, but he sure likes Becky.

    In a strip following from the above, Joyce lays out her beef.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/03-sometimes-the-sky-was-so-far-away/notaste/

    She can’t stand people getting hurt anymore. She can’t stand the idea everyone is a sinner and none of that matters, because Joyce has realized what she does is important, and Jesus can’t take the wheel. She needs someone to tell her what’s right, and the guy who was supposed to do that never returned her phone calls. Bad things happen to Joyce and the people she loves, and there is no point.

    Becky lives with this because God is love and everything else is irrelevant.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/originalsin/

    Yeah, her mom killed herself, but it’s fine because she’s in Heaven on the water slide! Yeah, her dad pulled her out of college, but God gave her Joyce to protect her! Yeah, she was kidnapped at gunpoint, and then God sent a fucking superhero to save her!

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/remembrance/

    Becky can do these things because to Becky, God is love incarnate. To Joyce, well…

    3. Joyce never actually had faith, she had obedience.

    This one speaks for itself.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/03-when-it-crumbles/renewal/

    Joyce believed in the bible because it was Correct, and it was Correct because her mom and dad told her it was. Dinosaurs breathed fire and were hunted to extinction by humans. The sky canopy existed. Gays and atheists belong in Hell. Humans were created in the image of God.

    A rational religious person eventually understands that some of this shit doesn’t fly, and Becky is a rational religious person. Nah, fuck all that wack nonsense. Who cares if evolution is real? It doesn’t contradict the important stuff.

    To drop a huge plot twist that may ruin the entire series for you: Joyce was not a rational religious person and every single word of the bible was textual fact to her. If dinosaurs didn’t breathe fire then Dorothy isn’t actually going to Hell, and if Dorothy isn’t going to Hell that means the bible is wrong, and if the bible is wrong then everything is wrong.

    Joyce never had a connection with God. She believed in the inerrant word of the bible and for all that made her think outright nonsense whose veracity isn’t up for debate, it also made her want to be like Jesus, ie: hanging out with sinners and being nice to them, except she believed in the actual Jesus, the chiseled from stone, textual Jesus who did only good, and not the Jesus that comes from molding him to the benefit of the Evangelical Right.

    Consequently, for Joyce, her faith and her culture are the same thing. Carol paying for Ross’ release even though he pointed a gun straight at her daughter’s face is, exactly, on the same level of reality as the bible itself. Joyce can’t recognize religion as something up to interpretation, she doesn’t have Becky’s spirituality because Joyce never had spirituality to begin with. She had an ironclad belief that everyone around her knew better than her and the only way she’d ever be happy is if she sat down, shut up, and popped out a baby for her future husband.

    Joyce is not processing her lack of faith as a changed worldview, she is criticizing her culture as much as she is her faith, and it is a shattering of everything she believed in. To bring this back to Liz, she was reveling in surface level negative commentary airlifted from the most basic textbook on saying mean things about organized religion. Joyce?

    4. Joyce is actually deeply uncomfortable with being an atheist.

    After the timeskip we got the shocking reveal that Joyce was now an atheist, and Joyce ain’t happy with it.

    Here is Joyce treating it like a slur.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/unpacking/

    Here is Joyce directly saying she’s fine with Dorothy being an atheist, but it’s not okay when it’s her.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/oneofthose/

    Here is Joyce directly signalling to the audience that she has not changed her personality in the slightest and all that’s really different with her is that God isn’t real anymore.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/seamlessly/

    Joyce is only able to comfortably talk about this with Sarah and then Joe…

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/03-see-you-in-the-funny-page/indomitable/

    …and Liz, who is the first person to let her tell God/her entire previous reality to fuck off.

    To be as clear as possible about this: Joyce does not believe in her atheism as something that evolved her or showed her the truth that those silly Christians don’t understand, Joyce views her atheism as a failure. It’s created a void in her heart that she is only barely starting to fill.

    Because she can’t admit the person she’s changing into is the person she always was.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/sobstory/

    Joyce is not euphoric in this moment, science is not her rifle and intellect is not her blade, Joyce is lost and confused because she’s not being lifted by her strings anymore.

    So I’ve talked about Joyce and the intimate place all of this is coming from, but what about Becky? If Joyce has changed her view on religion, does she think less of Becky now?

    Nope!

    5. Joyce’s opinion of Becky is still exactly the same.

    I’d post some links here to show that Joyce still thinks the world of Becky but oops, I’d be posting every single Becky/Joyce interaction since the timeskip!

    What can’t Joyce do right now with Becky?

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/crimson/

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/grace/

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/gaggle/

    Well, she can’t indicate to Becky to any degree that she is anything but still the exact same Joyce, because Joyce loves Becky more than anyone on Earth and she’ll One For All your ass if you even slightly cross her, and Joyce can’t accept the possibility of things changing between them.

    Joyce and Becky have at one point in the entire history of the comic talked about the failings of their faith, and one of them reacted very negatively to this idea when the other expressed something contrary to their worldview.

    Hint: it was Becky.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-10/01-birthday-pursuit/beeessin/

    Becky treats Joyce as if she’s throwing a tantrum. It’s a stupid phase. Joyce hasn’t been stewing over this constant and repeated trauma because she’s only saying it now, so obviously it’s artificial and Joyce needs to get back in line and affirm to Becky that she’ll go to Hell if she touches Dina’s vagina.

    Not once in the comic has Joyce indicated on any level that Becky, her dearest and closest friend, is wrong to still believe in God, or even inferred that she believes Becky shouldn’t anymore and that she also needs to grow up like Joyce did, because Joyce doesn’t view her atheism as evolution, she views it as a fall to darkness where she no longer has any rules or regulations to follow, so actually she can talk about penises now because God isn’t there to tell her not to.

    https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/exist/

    If anything, Joyce has been remarkably jealous of Becky’s unending and rock-solid faith as seen in her Rich Mullins dream sequence. Becky was able to shake off the detritus, Becky was able to focus on what matters and find comfort in her faith in God, but Joyce has never been able to because nothing about Joyce’s upbringing was about faith, it was about believing that people with power over you were smarter and knew what was best for you. Becky and Joyce didn’t even believe in the same God because Becky’s God is a caretaker who enacted miracles to show his love and Joyce’s God was a judge who’d let her suffer because she innately deserves it. How in the world can Joyce think less of Becky for believing in the God Joyce actually wanted?

    Aaand that’s all the evidence I can think exists so far that explains Joyce’s worldview. I hope it proves prescient and I finally overcome my longstanding curse of never successfully predicting stuff in Dumbing of Age, because my Lupin III avatar is on the line and his funny face getting bonked on the head fills me with joy.

    This essay is dedicated to the cookies who saved this post when I accidentally closed the tab I was writing it in. Thanks, Windows 10!

    (and a big thank you to David Willis for putting this up on the site for me, because I put a couple hours into it and I’m happy with how it came out)

    1. Spencer

      If you made it to the end of this, you are a certified Cool Person.

      1. zee

        Oh, i wanted to say since i couldn’t reply any further on a thread where you asked me a question
        I do believe Joyce was talking about herself there, what i think is ridiculous is anyone else thinking that if they walk in without context on joyce using language that refers to an entire group of people. I wouldn’t even give that benefit of the doubt to a friend, not unless they explained themselves. It’s just not reasonable to expect a teenager to be like “oh, I’m included in the group she’s insulting, but she’s probably just talking about herself so I’ll try not to have an emotional reaction” with 0 context.

        1. Spencer

          Becky having an emotional reaction is fine and I’ve been very insistent on this the whole time.

          Not only is Becky a deeply religious person, but she’s also reliant on Joyce as a constant anchor in a sea of desperate emotional chaos, the last remaining part of her old life she still loves, and someone whose words carry far too much weight for anyone to reasonably handle.

          Like, Becky is Factually Wrong, but she’s not wrong to be completely blindsided and emotionally devastated by this, because Becky is hearing this a day after Joyce threw a party in celebration of Becky’s mom, and Becky just learned Joyce doesn’t think she’s ever going to see her mom again after she killed herself and she’s just gone forever.

          It’s okay that Becky’s upset, it’s even okay that Becky’s upset in this scenario that only came about because she’s a clown and thought it’d be funny to claim ownership of Joyce in front of Liz, but just because she’s upset doesn’t make her right in her judgment of Joyce (and I say judgment because we already know how Becky acts when Joyce questions her faith), and it doesn’t make her right to place Joyce in a glass case of Never Ever Change (except in ways I want her to).

        2. milu

          @zee you know if you’ve reached maximum nestedness in a thread and there’s no longer a “reply” button next to the last comment you want to reply to you can always scroll upthread until you get to the latest “reply” button and click that and your reply will appear below the last comment? it’s a bit weird but once you know it you unlock Infinite Internet Argument, what’s not to love

        3. zee

          Maaaakes sense. I have a bad habit of forgetting about these comments until like, the end of the day or the next day so it doesn’t makes sense to say anything bc no one will be around to see it

      2. thejeff

        I commented on this partly elsewhere, but to respond more directly: I think this is a very good analysis of why Joyce was mocking religion. I absolutely agree that it’s all coming out of her own pain and trauma.
        But even if deep inside she’s thinking about herself, that doesn’t change that she actually was mocking believers. Not just herself, but believers in general. Even Becky, who might not believe in the sky sea anymore, but does believe in “the magical wizard who loves me” and that there’s a grand design.

        I’d thought yesterday that you were really reading her words as literally not referring to anyone else, but with this post I’m more back to thinking you think it doesn’t matter what she actually said because deep down she’s focused on her own feelings about it. I could still be completely wrong of course.

        1. Spencer

          Okay you know what sure.

          How can Joyce phrase this highly specific outburst of feelings entirely related to her exact instilling of blind obedience in authority and that all the trauma she went through had a point, when we know that Joyce herself resents her atheism and she has not once judged Becky in the slightest, without it being mockery?

          What makes it about believers in general to you, and if it is, why would Joyce even be talking about them when her upbringing wasn’t typical?

        2. thejeff

          “Lookit me! I believe in God! I’m an idiot who thinks there’s some magical wizard who loves me…” How does that not cover believers in general?

          Again, I’m talking about what she said, not about the feelings it came from

        3. Spencer

          Okay so just so I understand this, your stance hasn’t been whether or not Joyce meant to say Fuck Christians, it’s that regardless of intent she chose to express herself using those words?

          Because that definitely explains where I’ve been lost, but I think that’s a really basic understating of the complexities of Joyce’s newfound lack of belief. It’s not as simple as “Joyce is just lashing out because she’s angry”, she’s lashing out at some pretty specific stuff that applies to her and not to Becky.

          Even then, I feel that line applies to Joyce herself since it also comes with the line about the sky sea and the part where God made bad things happen to her to teach her a lesson and that context can’t really be divorced from the final line, especially given the pensive faces she was making and the massive contrast between Joyce’s growing seething frustration and Liz being a total troll.

          Joyce is the idiot who believed the magical wizard who loved her, unlike Becky, who definitely knows there’s an all-powerful deity who’s got her back because he keeps doing her a solid, and Becky’s a way better believer than Joyce because she’s got a dead mom and an evil now dead dad, but she didn’t give up.

          Like I think the fact that Joyce’s opinion of Becky hasn’t changed in the slightest and Joyce herself is pretty bummed about being an atheist are pretty good indicators that if there’s anyone in the room she’d call a failure, it’s her.

        4. Regalli

          Remember, Becky and Dorothy probably didn’t hear the previous stuff. We know they heard that one and ‘I believe bad things happen for a reason and aren’t just random bullshit,’ maybe Liz’s previous line but we can’t be sure. Without the context that Joyce started on all the things she specifically believed and the things Joyce is thinking, it sounds like mocking religion in the abstract.

          Joyce’s intent isn’t totally irrelevant, but for those very initial reactions they’re not thinking ‘why’ and picking it apart, they’re hearing her say something INCREDIBLY dismissive of religion as a concept and going ‘wait what the fuck, Joyce.’ Especially Becky, but it does in fact seem out of character enough for Joyce (because Liz was goading her on, because she’s starting to process ugly religious trauma shit and they missed that context) for Dorothy to also be ‘wait what the fuck, Joyce.’ This is probably, like, two minutes after Dorothy interrupted, maybe as many as five depending on the length of those beat panels. Initial reactions all around, except maybe Sarah who probably expected catastrophe all morning in various forms.

        5. Spencer

          No yeah I get that Becky and Dorothy almost certainly only heard the part where Joyce goes in, but where all these arguments have been coming from is whether or not Joyce’s anger at her upbringing is being centered on herself or if she is expressing that anger by saying something at the expense of theists.

          Like it’s the difference between “I was stupid enough to believe in God” or “I, Joyce Brown, was stupid enough to believe in a God who sent me trauma to teach me a lesson and who I thought loved me even though I never actually heard his voice, whereas my cool friend Becky got it right.”

          Because thejeff is saying it’s the former, that Joyce is using blanket language to express her anger and Becky got caught up in that, whereas I think Joyce is being extremely specific to her upbringing and her personal relationship with God, which differs from Becky because Becky’s relationship with God is the one Joyce would want to have, and would have if she were raised healthier.

        6. Regalli

          I’m pretty sure that the other point of contention is that Liz was clearly doing the ‘Lookit me, I believe in God’ in the mocking tone you’d say ‘Lookit me, I’m Sarah and my idea of fun is sitting in the corner making a grumpy face!’ (it’s really obvious from her facial expressions,) and while Joyce’s face is clearly not as comfortable, I think thejeff and I are both assuming from the line and the dynamic with Liz that Joyce is also using (or approximating) that sort of tone to sound ‘cool’ with her. (Presumably if she weren’t convincingly mocking, Liz would have said something like ‘you can do better than that!’ or realized Joyce wasn’t that comfortable about the subject and backed off.)

        7. thejeff

          I don’t think Joyce is actually angry at Becky. (I’m not sure if you’re saying I think that or not.) She’s angry at herself and very likely also at those who taught her that religion and she expressed that in the blanket way that splashed over onto Becky.

          I’m not sure what you mean when you say she thinks “Becky got it right.” If she doesn’t believe anymore, she doesn’t actually believe that Becky’s right. I’m also not sure she has a good understanding of how her faith differed from Becky’s all along.

        8. Spencer

          @Regalli
          I’m not sure I agree, but then I also don’t “hear” comic dialogue the way some folks can so I’ve processed the dichotomy between Liz and Joyce’s faces and dialogue as a deliberate expression of where Liz’s words are coming from, and where Joyce’s are, so if I were to read a tone into Joyce’s dialogue, it’d be based on her resentful facial expressions. I’m not sure I’d rely on Liz for this either, as Liz is probably fine with it as long as Joyce says God is dumb, except Liz has no idea of the deep pit this is all crawling out of. That Liz is specifically making a wild cartoon face and Joyce is not

          @thejeff

          The fourth entry in the analysis was about Joyce’s views on her atheism but cliffnotes: Joyce isn’t an atheist because she wants to be, like Dorothy is, she’s an atheist because her foundation cracked.

          To put this as bluntly as possible: Joyce didn’t believe in the same God as Becky, because Becky’s God is Love and Joyce’s God was Judgment. The God that Joyce is shittalking is not Becky’s, and Joyce has not once indicated she thinks any differently of Becky since we learned she was an atheist, or that she thinks less of Christians at all. She thinks they’re wrong, but so do Dorothy and Dina.

          Becky “got it right” because Joyce respects her faith, because Joyce hasn’t changed her opinion of Becky in the slightest and sees that she is super happy and in love with Dina and that everything is fine with her. Becky kept her faith and Joyce’s Rich Mullins dream sequence indicates she feels guilty she wasn’t able to in the face of that.

          Becky only got caught in the splash zone because she’s misinterpreting Joyce’s words, and she’s misinterpreting Joyce’s words because she walked in at the worst moment, and this is so devastating to her because Joyce is saying it and Becky thinks Joyce is calling her stupid. Joyce isn’t actually catching anyone else in her net but herself and her super specific, batshit upbringing, because Becky got away from that without losing her faith and Joyce just broke away entirely.

          I just don’t know how else to express that I don’t think Joyce is shitting on any Christians she knows, or even just Christians in general, and that there’s no way Joyce can say this within earshot of Becky without her getting mad.

    2. Seregiel

      Agree with almost all of this as someone who was always athiest but watched lots of weird religious crisis in a progressive catholic highschool. Strangest collective crisis was caused when one teacher (who was not a school standard but the church standard around us) tried to use ochams razor Aquinas style instead of OG ochams intent and when I was directly asked my views on belief vs disbelieve due to punishment/reward/assumptions (it was seriously wrongly applied)…

      And I have been very jealous of some of my friends beliefs and also very liberated with never having that burden. It would be wonderful to feel never alone and valued and that what I did had a greater meaning… but it’s also comforting my worst day is a blip on the cosmic scale and that the only way I disappoint people is by also being a person, and there isn’t a scale with a heart and a feather against my humanity. That I can just keep trying to do my best for myself and those around me and that is really how you create “heaven” on earth.

    3. Regalli

      Well put. I definitely agree that that’s where Joyce is coming at this from, and you did so VERY thoroughly, thanks.

      Unfortunately for Joyce, we know this but Becky didn’t – the only parts we know for a fact Becky heard were the ‘everything happens for a reason’ line (which I could see Becky actually having some issues with herself, but she does still think God came to her aid in sending a superhero and her best friend on a motorcycle to rescue her) and the ‘I’m an idiot for believing’ one. I think they didn’t hear the sky canopy just because it makes it so much clearer it’s NOT talking about all believers. (It also doesn’t look like they saw her face, though it’s hard to tell precisely.) So explanation is needed, and I suspect it’s going to include some deeper ‘why didn’t you tell me?’ ‘I was ashamed and the last time I even came close to discussing it, you didn’t want to hear’ aspects. If not right now, then soon – This seems like it could be a several-conversation issue.

      1. Spencer

        That’s actually a really good point and it helps further sell the divide between these two.

        When Becky was in trouble, God sent her Joyce, Dina, Sal and Amazi-Girl. God did this because he loves Becky with all his omnipotent power, and her victories proved her correct.

        When Joyce needed to be taught a lesson, God sent her Ryan, Toedad, Carol and Blaine.

        1. Regalli

          Yeah, and that was Joyce’s first week at college. She meets a Good Christian Boy who knows his Bible verses as well as she does, a pastor’s son even… and he drugs and tries to rape her, and it’s the friends who were all in some ways not her paradigm of Proper Christianity that come to her rescue. (Sarah and her baseball bat when she’s been taught to be good and demure, Dorothy the soulless atheist who’s so concerned with her safety, and Jennifer whose experience at wild teen parties left her with useful if terrible knowledge of how to handle a friend getting drugged. Even though AG let him escape with her entrance, she still became a friend afterwards, figured out Joyce was the whiteboard dingdong bandit, and didn’t judge Joyce for something she found shameful and terrifying in ‘Joyce acknowledges the existence of penises.’)

          Becky can consider AG coming to her rescue an act of God. Because Joyce’s sense of God was all in her community, (and thanks for phrasing that because you’re spot on,) I don’t think she could consider Sarah and Dorothy and Jennifer saving her in the same way, especially since she went straight from ‘trustworthy pastor’s son’ to ‘oh no he’s dangerous’ where Becky had some time to get used to ‘Dad is a potential threat to me,’ or at least couldn’t be trusted with key information.

          (I also don’t think Becky knows that one of the last things Ross said to Joyce was that she was the one to go to secular college because she was the most obedient of their homeschool group. I’m not certain how much that stuck with Joyce given all the other trauma there, but the fact that Joyce did hear that and Becky hadn’t been kidnapped yet seems like it could well be compounding Joyce’s ‘the community has failed us’ trauma. Becky’s trauma about the adults failing her is mostly centered around Ross. I’m pretty sure she knows the congregation bailed Ross out – she knows they don’t support her – but she didn’t hear Carol’s ‘I will die for you’ right after or see Hank go from ‘Hitler was an atheist too’ to a parent who could support Becky and Joyce in realtime. Even if she knows the congregation’s unsalvageable, I don’t think she’s internalized how badly all the adults in their lives failed them for their whole lives.)

    4. Florence

      Wonderful breakdown, I agree with everything you said. I didn’t think about how deep the shame is so I even learned something

    5. milu

      wow! impressive!
      especially that it only took you a couple hours ^^
      although maybe that’s not so surprising coming from you =)

      1. Spencer

        Oh it’s wonderful.

        I started taking adderall yesterday and I can, like, actually do things.

        ‘Cause usually it’s “no focus” and “hyperfocus”, but now I can just commit myself to something and, like, just do it for as long as I want and then stop when I feel like it.

        The words just poured out of me writing this.

        1. milu

          oh wow! neat! congratulations? on landing on the right medication regimen? is that a congratulations situation.

          so, i appreciate your commitment to this one “prediction” you made, but i guess the claim i find harder to accept and would be more interested in you waging your grav on is this idea that Becky is invested in Joyce remaining the same old Joyce to the point where Joyce losing her faith would in itself cause serious trouble between them, or that she would refuse to hear, or that it would somehow be Very Bad.

          i’m not interested in distributing blame, like it’s very human for Joyce to hide this important issue from her best friend, and Becky certainly hasn’t made it easier for Joyce to share her crisis of faith with her.

          i think their conversation during the party doesn’t work for me as proof that Becky will not listen. Joyce might understandably think she’s tried to broach the talk then Becky shut it down, but… yeah let’s not rehash this, but i don’t read Becky’s side of this interaction the way you do.

          So my contention— and you know what i will wear a silly hat for a month too if i’m super wrong, why not— is that it will turn out that Becky is actually not all that wounded by Joyce becoming an atheist. It’s gonna fall in the gray zone between absolute freakout and zero-fuck-giveage for sure, she’ll probably have a strong reaction, but i’m betting she won’t take it as a personal betrayal.

          Now—she might be mad at Joyce for not telling her about it sooner; and she might be mad at Joyce for having told Sarah and Joe and Liz and Rich Mullins and Fuckface and every uber driver and their grandma before she ever told her; and she might be saying she’s mad at Joyce for these reasons but actually be wounded that Joyce is no longer on team Jesus with her; and i guess there’ll be no way to actually tease any of this stuff apart for months.

          but also, maybe she’ll yell at Joyce “i hate that you’ve changed” or something and you will be proved right and have the privilege of dictating some ridiculous avatar to me!

          alea jacta est.

        2. milu

          (honestly i have no idea how becky will react, i’m just challenging the inevitability of your interpretation. i just think it might go either way. but i think there’s some sort of rule in the “betting on random stuff” handbook where you can’t bet on the set of all possible outcomes? so.)

        3. Spencer

          Becky reacting not just poorly (that’s gonna happen regardless and especially now) but needing Joyce to remain the same isn’t something that’s outright textual like other stuff I talked about, it’s something that I feel is a natural conclusion to draw from their relationship.

          Part one is that Becky has actually just straight up lashed out at Joyce for questioning her faith, like there’s no way not to mention that it’s pretty important because it’s the only frame of reference we have for the idea. To be clear Joyce wasn’t trying to talk about her faith there, Joyce was actually just rip roaring pissed off and venting, but Becky’s reaction was still to tell Joyce it was a stupid phase and she had no idea what she was talking about.

          Part two is that Joyce is the last remaining bastion of Becky’s old life she has any affection for.

          With apologies to Dina, Joyce is still Becky’s most important person and Becky’s gotten used to a specific Joyce, and that Joyce will move heaven and earth for Becky. She’ll hide Becky in her dorm, she’ll fight her dad, she’ll fight her own dad, she’ll fight a completely unrelated dad. If Joyce believes in something that gets in the way of making Becky happy (like the sin of homosexuality) then that something goes to hell and dies forever because Becky comes first no matter what.

          Becky modified her beliefs over time because what actually matters to her is God’s unending love, and my read on her is that she just figured Joyce will do the same eventually, not understanding that Joyce’s faith needs to work all at once in every single aspect or else it all collapses. Becky got rid of everything she disliked (so all the dumb stuff except for the part about sexual purity, Becky’s still holding onto that one), so Becky just has all of the good bits, but for Joyce it wasn’t good or evil, it was right or wrong, and it’s all or the other.

          So tying the two together, Becky thinks God has her back and she thinks Joyce has her back, and Becky deeply, deeply values Joyce’s opinion because:

          – Oldest and dearest friend

          – Dependable rock amidst chaos

          – Still kind of in love with her

          And Becky just found out Joyce thinks she’s not going to see her mom again, they’ll never reunite in Heaven, and she’s dead and gone forever and Becky’s last memory of her will be finding her body.

          As for the avatar bet, I’ve decided to make an addendum: No one’s gonna decide what it’ll be for me if I’m wrong, because I came up with something way, way worse than any nightmare any of you could have.

        4. milu

          so in a way, you’d say Becky’s faith has to do with the Y axis of the DnD character chart and Joyce’s aligns with the X axis? Like, Becky needs God to tell her that life is worth living for the beauty and goodness and harmony to be found in it, and Joyce needed God to tell her life is livable in practice by following a neat set of rules telling her what is permitted and what is verboten.

          yes the party scene is the only data point, but i’m not sure it tells us very much about Becky’s feelings. i can imagine some much better written version of their upcoming dialogue sounding something like,
          Joyce: i tried to tell you that one time and you didn’t want to hear.
          Becky: what? when?
          Joyce: at the party? you were freaking out about boinking Dina.
          Becky: yeah, and you were like who cares about your petty hangups, we’ve been fed nothing but lies our whole …wait. ooooh

        5. Spencer

          Yeah you got it.

          In one phrase: Becky has faith, Joyce had programming.

          Becky believes in God because she feels his presence working through the miracles she has experienced. Becky is loved, therefore anything that contradicts that love is wrong.

          Joyce knew God was real because adults told her so and her morals, faith, and understanding of the world her were all inerrant facts drawn from the same source. Humans hunted dinosaurs to extinction, Dorothy is going to Hell, and there is a sky sea, and if Joyce stopped believing in any of these her entire programming would stop.

          Joyce stood up for Dorothy against her parents not because Dorothy is a good person (although there is that too), it’s that Joyce explained to her parents that they weren’t doing what Jesus would do. Jesus’ authority mattered more than her parents’, ergo there is no contradiction. Joyce loves Becky but she never had to deal with the contradiction, because actually that part of the bible is up to interpretation meaning Joyce can believe her facts and Becky still wins out. Then it kept getting worse and worse, the contradictions kept piling up, the facts stopped being facts, the authority figures in her life didn’t just ignore her, they were actively causing her suffering, and Joyce’s inability to believe in the authority figures in her life meant she could not believe in God anymore, because they were the same thing.

          Becky snuggles up to her rad atheist dino girlfriend, and all she really thinks about that is that Dina’s gonna feel really silly at the pearly gates. There is no contradiction, but that’s because God gave her Dina and God would never keep Dina out of Heaven. God would not damn atheists to Hell if Becky were eventually to fall in love with one, ergo the part about all non-believers going to Hell is obviously false and unimportant.

    6. MrSmith

      Dude you’re on fire with your takes, keep ’em coming!

  24. Nayann Martinelli

    Sorry Amazi-Girl, but real heroes don’t wear masks.

    1. King Daniel

      Unless it’s a global pandemic. Public health interests, yo!

    2. Thag Simmons

      Masks are useful protective gear for many heroic situations.

      Now, Capes on the other hand…

      1. JBento

        “No capes!”

    3. Eldritchy

      What about Fire fighters?

  25. Disastroid

    Bulmeria!
    Fuck yeah!
    Fictional place for Joyce to run away, yeah
    Bulmeria!
    Fuck yeah!
    Hiding is the only way

    1. Schpoonman

      Comics! (Fuck yeah!)
      Financial crimes! (Uh… yeah?)

  26. Clif

    Send in the comic strips via email. Did she already swing the job off panel?

    1. Regalli

      Probably not. But she is VERY confident she’ll win, because come on. Who’d pick Lawsome over the adventures of Julia Gray?

      1. Reltzik

        Someone who received Lawsome as their only submission because Julia Gray’s creator was distracted by dealing with this crisis instead.

        1. Regalli

          I’m betting it goes to a third submission involving a video game-playing robot.

        2. Thag Simmons

          Nah, Mary’s gonna pull a dark horse victory with some anime mallard fillmore shit

        3. Spencer

          …

          Oh my god please yes

        4. Regalli

          … On the one hand, please god no. On the other hand, please god yes.

          On the mutant third hand, I see your Mallard Fillmore and raise you Knockoff 9 Chickweed Lane, three-and-a-half-month-long Turning The Gay Character and all. (Though hopefully not with the sexually charged toddlers.)

      2. Spencer

        That Joyce getting sidetracked all day means she may have missed the deadline and we’ll be deprived the adventures of Captain Julia Gray is the most devastating part of this storyline.

        1. Reltzik

          Nah, Dorothy will cheer her up by reminding her that the run was going to be too short to explore the story properly anyway, and Joyce should just publish in a more suitable medium.

    2. Thag Simmons

      Joyce is either confident in her victory, or intends to publish the comic through an alternative means even if she loses

      1. Daibhid C

        Maybe on the internet!

        Nah, that’d never work.

    3. Keulen

      I’m wondering how much time Joyce and Walky have until they have to submit their comic strips. I thought they were supposed to do that sometime today (in-comic-time of course). Can’t remember if there was a specific deadline though.

      1. Thag Simmons

        This is still morning, so as long as Joyce doesn’t BSoD from the fallout of this, she should have time

        1. Regalli

          Since it is still morning and Liz is leaving, there’s still time for Joyce to talk to Becky, try and process her feelings after, and decide to call the one adult in her life who didn’t seem to buy everything their parents were selling and ask why she never tried to push back. (Which seems like a VERY good prompt for Jocelyne to start talking about how she was afraid if she didn’t keep her head down, she’d tell their parents something they couldn’t be trusted with.)

  27. Jamie

    JOE SPEAKS. It’s a miracle.

    Alas, Joyce no longer believes and didn’t hear him.

  28. Sol

    Sarah is my favourite person right now.

  29. Rabisch

    I love Liz’s face. A true expression of those who feel betrayed and still can’t believe it! Joe is saying the only important thing, if Joyce doesn’t talk to Becky now the future is going to be more and more awkward.

    1. Daniel M Ball

      Joe has been pretty consistently good at being the ‘sane person’ when he’s not rolling in his own dysfunctions, and that goes back to the ‘Roomies!” days.

  30. Tan

    Dumbing of Age Book 12: I Take a Class With Both of You and It Doesn’t Need More Awkwardness

    1. Keulen

      DoA Book 12: I Have Never Before Sacrificed So Much!

  31. Eldritchy

    Never before have a hug been so uncomfortable for both parties… it’s almost an art form

  32. Bagge

    Someone should make a statue of Sarah

  33. Brumagem

    Get in the hallway Shinji Joyce

  34. JBento

    Sarah is the hero we need, but so much more than we deserve.

  35. Spencer

    I’m actually kinda bummed Joe isn’t leaping to Joyce’s defense

    I mean I know why that disappoints me so much, but Joe’s the only one here who’s gotten some of Joyce’s more complicated feelings on her upbringing. He’s the one who Joyce was able to trust with her atheism feelings even beyond Sarah, and he’s focusing on his own discomfort. Maybe he’s only capable of being nice to her in private, that actually tracks.

    Someone stick up for Joyce already! But in a nice, non-Liz way!

    1. liliaeth

      because he knows that what’s best for Joyce is to go talk to Becky, and she’s gonna beat herself up if she doesn’t. Sometimes defending a person, is not what’s best for them.

      1. Spencer

        No that part’s fine.

        I mean this morality purity testing bullshit Dorothy’s putting her through.

        Or even saying “hey maybe Joyce is allowed to have complicated feelings too, and her own pain isn’t invalidated because of someone else getting hurt.”

    2. Alex

      You may be expecting a little too much of Joe. He’s grown but he’s still gonna take the “feels are too complicated” route most of the time.

      1. Spencer

        Yeah but he also spent his day bouncing around between Becky and Amber because Joyce was looking at her phone all sad and he had to figure out a way to help her.

        And then he did, like he was more helpful to Joyce in the span of one single strip, where he affirmed to her that even if Heaven and Hell never existed Joyce herself sure did and everything that made Joyce who she was is still valid, than anyone in this room is doing with their “just grovel and fix things, Joyce, you piece of shit.”

  36. ValdVin

    Two things to really love here: Joyce’s face in panel one, and the beat panel to setup Sarah.

  37. milu

    huh what the? testing now. sorry

    1. milu

      oh ok i tried to say something in a thread up there, i kept clicking post and the comment didn’t appear. it was a boring unnecessary comment so idc but it was weird.
      oh well! seems fine now.

  38. Alex

    Well I was COMPLETELY wrong when I said Joyce would want to apologize.

    1. Throwatron

      Joyce is still, psychologically, a fundamentalist. She doesn’t believe her flaws and mistakes are things that happen, or that can be repaired, she thinks that whenever she does something wrong, both the world and her are now fundamentally broken and it is her fault. The way she’s responding to this is as predictable as how she responds to every other social crisis.

  39. Carla's #2 Fan

    I’m a Joe stan, but is that really the best he could do?

    1. Spencer

      I’m very much hoping Joe will speak up in Joyce’s defense, but it’s not really out there for him.

      Joe has only been able to do Feelings around Joyce by himself. He’s Shallow Friend, but when he was in Amber’s room with her Shallow Friend was the best she had so he… gave her frank, honest and helpful advice on the validity of the Joyce who always existed and still does even without Heaven and Hell, and then hit a middle ground for her where bringing up Becky’s mom could hurt her feelings, but it was more important that Becky knew that Joyce understood where she had been misled believing Becky’s mom died of cancer, and that Joyce would support her.

      But now Dorothy’s in the room, so there’s a Better Friend, the Best Friend even. Joe’s outranked by Dorothy even though she’s approaching this with extreme black and white thinking, so Dorothy’s advice is what matters and all of this can be dealt with by her while Joe encourages Joyce to make this go away because of Awkwardness and Feelings.

    2. Jamie

      I mean, he said more than I expected him to. I was expecting continued Joe lurks.

  40. anonymsly

    Well, that’s sad but not unexpected. Joyce matters not even a little bit, because Poor Becky. Poor Becky had her feelings hurt, so Joyce has to go do whatever it takes to fix that.

    1. Spencer

      I’m all essay’d out, but here’s a brief Dorothy take:

      Her moral compass is childishly simple, and she’s kind of desperate for Becky to like her as much as Becky is desperate for Dorothy to like Becky.

      Dorothy’s idea of being a good person is “just do the right thing all the time.” Joyce said something and Becky had a bad reaction to it, therefore Joyce is to blame regardless of circumstance, because Becky is hurt as a result of an action Joyce took, so it doesn’t matter that Becky is hurt for reasons beyond Joyce’s control or that Joyce expressed her anger from a deep and powerful place within her, Joyce is the bad one, and she needs to make it right.

      Something I’ve come to believe about Becky and Dorothy’s dynamic, which I’ve outright described as bullying and now don’t think so as much, is that both of them put really, really large amounts of effort into being the most likable person in the room, and that manifests in different ways.

      Becky grew up in a stifling environment where she was constantly pressured to obey authority and learned to be agreeable, but agreeable in a way that made her a charming, affable rebel. Becky couldn’t even cut her hair without her dad’s say-so, and whoops, there goes all the glue onto her head. Becky thinks she constantly needs to prove she’s the coolest, smartest, funniest person ever, if her plan to barge in on Joyce and Liz worked she’d probably have a laugh track playing in her head because Becky’s idea of “the coolest person in the universe” is one entirely in response to pre-series Joyce, the least cool human being on the planet.

      Dorothy needs to do the right thing all the time and the right thing is being super nice and friendly, and the way to prove you’re friendly is that everyone likes you. Then Dorothy assumed she’d be a great RA because she’s super nice and friendly and then found out everyone likes her well enough but could see she is transparently artificial in a way Roz who is kinda skeezy, but is actually, genuinely an effortlessly social butterfly who can interact with people is not, but Dorothy thinks will makes her a super nice and friendly person.

      So Becky kept bugging the shit out of Dorothy and Dorothy defused her by telling her she’d be her friend no matter what was going on, and what I didn’t realize is that Becky was actually receptive to this. Becky believes Dorothy can and wants to be her friend.

      But she’s not Joyce, who she has loved all her life. She’s not Dina, who kissed her first. She’s not Leslie, who constantly dotes on her.

      Becky needs to prove to Dorothy that she’s likable, and she will do this by acting the same way she did to Joyce; a goofy cartoon character the showrunner thinks is gonna be the fan favourite but actually all the kids hate him and he dies on the way back to his home planet, except that guy was actually Joyce’s favourite character.

      And I think this annoys the shit out of Dorothy, but Dorothy likes Becky for who she is and needs to be a super nice and friendly person, so she accommodates without fail. If Becky was just an asshole all the time no matter what it’d be easy, Dorothy wouldn’t respect that, but Becky being someone Dorothy likes a whole bunch that Dorothy can’t bring herself to criticize because Becky means well and is just trying to be funny? That’s harder. It’s better to just go along with it and keep trying to get her out of it (in a way that will not backfire on Dorothy), because Dorothy knows Becky can be the person Dorothy thinks she is.

      And because Dorothy doesn’t set boundaries, because Dorothy is yet to be the fourth person Becky can let herself cry around without fear they’ll hate her, she keeps at it, because she hasn’t sufficiently proven herself to Dorothy as the coolest person on Earth, and only once she has done that will Becky allow herself to be genuine.

      1. Spencer

        …

        Okay so that didn’t end up brief.

        1. Needfuldoer

          Don’t worry about it, you’re knocking them out of the park today.

      2. Regalli

        Oooh, I like your assessment!

        I think it’s also worth noting that while Becky is willing to be much more vulnerable with Leslie, she’s also a bit uncomfortable with that doting and expects there to be a catch – she thinks Leslie’s couch offer would eventually be rescinded with Leslie’s new girlfriend, and very much doesn’t want a new mother figure (or doesn’t want to let herself get attached because someday Leslie will stop, but given how recent Bonnie’s death was I think it’s both. And ooh, especially given the trauma of finding Bonnie post-suicide attempt there could be a lot of issues in that mix.)

        1. Spencer

          Yeah I think Becky’s love for Leslie is on two levels.

          Becky loves Leslie because they see themselves in each other. There’s a connection, and Leslie has been extremely, openly affectionate with Becky and constantly praising her, meaning Becky knows Leslie likes her a whole bunch and will then not stop liking her if Becky cries or feels sad.

          Becky loves that affection, but she doesn’t need a new mom, and I think that’s where she tries to keep Leslie not as close as she does Joyce and Dina, the latter of whom kissed her straight on the mouth and constantly and clearly verbally affirms her love of Becky and that Becky is incapable of creating a problem for her that Dina is not comfortable talking about.

        2. Needfuldoer

          I think Leslie’s role as a provider and authority figure plays a part in their dynamic too. Up until a few months ago, nearly everyone in that position (Toedead, church leaders, even Robin) treated acts of kindness as transactional to some degree. “You will obey or you will lose/be denied something you hold dear.” The exceptions were Joyce, Dina, and (hopefully) Bonnie. Even though Leslie welcomed her with open arms, she never fully shook that skittish, walking-on-eggshells feeling.

        3. Regalli

          Yeah, and Bonnie as the one exception who was an adult left her. (It seems pretty conspicuous we DON’T know Becky’s thoughts about Bonnie attempting suicide beyond ‘I’ll never miss the signs again’. She’s alluded to it being something where her feelings weren’t one straightforward thing, when she was talking with Amber post-Blaine’s death, but we haven’t heard which feelings and when and Becky kind of sidestepped talking about it last arc. If she has been suspecting Joyce is an atheist I half wonder if it was intentional Let’s Talk About Heaven Instead time so she WOULDN’T have to discuss the elephant in the room of ‘So my Dad told me what she really died of.’)

      3. milu

        hey, that makes a lot of sense. thanks. i feel like on some emotional level, i react to Dorothy differently than you because it sounds like you know Dorothies and find them insufferable, whereas i know Dorothies and gravitate towards them like a moth to a flame. i find people with strong and exacting ethics attractive. so i have a hard time disliking Dorothy even yesterday and today when there’s a strong case for them being a jerk. also, in some ways you and Dorothy are Not So Different? you have pretty stringent moral intuitions yourself, as you’ve proven the past couple days. which, i mean, i appreciate about you.

      4. MrSmith

        You’re making me reconsider what I thought about Dorothy, keep at it

    2. AGV

      I mean, Joyce’s biggest problem rn is that her best friend is very hurt with what she’s said, and postponing this will create certain permanent damage to their relationship, which Joyce herself values a lot. Everything else happening to her is more long term and definitely not as immediately vulnerable as this.

      Attending to Becky is still very much on her best interest as of right now.

      1. Spencer

        Would it kill any of them to even attempt to understand Joyce in any capacity?

        Because Dorothy managed to get an “I’m so disappointed in you for skipping class >:(” out before “Joyce, my close friend, what motivated you to say that?”

        Like, it’s actually true right now that Becky gave zero fucks, Dorothy is giving zero fucks, Joe is telling her to go fix it because of how it’ll inconvenience him, and Sarah is helping more than any of them except so Liz can help Joyce apologize meaning Sarah still views it as, on some level, “Joyce needs to fix this.”

        There are four of them, two of whom share the title of Joyce’s Best Friend, one is her big sis and the other’s got it bad for her, and not one of them can think about Joyce’s own feelings.

        Which, granted, I think is intentional, because all of this is happening Right Now and it’s natural to want to de-escalate a panicked situation, but I think the motivations of the individual characters are manifesting in different ways.

        1. Regalli

          I will note Joe’s not saying ‘apologize’ or expressing real disappointment – he’s telling her to talk to Becky rather than avoid her forever (the rest of the day) and let this fester. Which is in fact the better idea, since Joyce DOESN’T really want to avoid Becky forever and can’t practically do so, and putting it off lets it become A Thing. Make them talk now and Joyce’s anxiety won’t have a chance to spiral, which it will do if you even say ‘yes you can wait a couple hours while she cools off.’ (Aaaah, the joys of anxiety disorders.)

          So Joe, at least, is pressing but not necessarily judging what she said, and I do think Sarah at least recognizes that ‘talk to Becky’ is the thing Joyce doesn’t WANT to do but will only get worse if she doesn’t do it now. (She also saw Joyce lying about her best friend status to impress Liz/avoid Becky and Dorothy seeing her in a different light, which is genuinely Joyce making a bad decision. Could be ‘apologize’ is based in the whole situation since Sarah’s the only one that saw it all and watched it get out of control. But it’s also Sarah, who is genuinely bad at socializing, so I could see her going with ‘apologize so I don’t have to deal with this as a Thing.’) Could be Dorothy is now as well, since she generally has a pretty good read on how Joyce’s anxieties work, but I agree that the immediate Disappointment reflects badly on her even while I’m cutting her a LITTLE slack since the only things we know she heard were firmly Edgy Atheist. Hope it’s a character flaw, she needs some drama, but would be interested in hearing if she DOES have strong opinions on Atheists Who Give Chill Atheists a Bad Name as well.

        2. Spencer

          These are all actually really good points.

          I remain critical of Dorothy for much the same reasons as you, but Sarah and Joe, who have a deeper understanding of Joyce’s atheism right now than Dorothy, might be coming at this better than her.

          All three of them recognize that for whatever responsibility for Becky’s pain Joyce has and yada yada, Joyce wants to go talk to Becky right this very second. She’s scared yeah, but she’s scared because her worst nightmare happened in the worst way.

          But Dorothy’s the one saying “make it right”, whereas Joe’s kind of selfish and Sarah’s making a joke. If Joe were to believe in Joyce right now (and maybe he does) he couldn’t say it because that’s Feelings and in front of other people (and now that I think about it, he vocalized his worries for Joyce to Becky in the same way: “I don’t care it’s not my problem you deal with it”, and then he went and dealt with it), whereas Sarah doesn’t even seem to be angry in the slightest. Whether that’s because she’s used to Joyce being disaster-prone, she just wants this resolved, or if she thinks Joyce has a point and should say as such remains to be seen.

        3. Regalli

          I think if Joe wasn’t around other people, he’d probably still say ‘you share a class with me, please do not let yourself draw it out and turn this into awkwardpalooza,’ but the selfishness isn’t the only motivating factor. Obviously it would suck for him to watch awkwardpalooza, but also: It would be awkwardpalooza because they’d miss each other but Joyce would be too busy worrying about how Becky hates her now and then it’s been too long to have this conversation so OBVIOUSLY she cannot have it and must accept her fate and flee to Bulmeria. A more honest conversation would probably still have the ‘don’t put this off, it will only get worse,’ but might appeal to other times Joyce tried to ignore something and it didn’t go away. (She could pretend her toenail wasn’t dead all she wanted, but that didn’t make it true and it wouldn’t go away once it fell off until someone did something. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/02-to-remind-you-of-my-love/takeaways/ The strip before is her avoiding solving a problem because it can at least be a more viscerally-horrifying but less looming issue than ‘Mom bailed out Toedad,’ but those expressions? Yeah, no, I’m pretty sure she was in fact going to stand there for a ridiculously long time before doing anything herself… Which actually is making me reassess Dorothy’s scheduling the eye exam as a similar anxiety over minor and easily-solved health thing. Still a drastic overstepping of boundaries, but huh, I’m now seeing the throughline from ‘Ask, it doesn’t get done’ to that.)

          Pretty sure Joe also knows as well as Dorothy and Sarah that Joyce is prone to anxious avoidance, or at least what it can look like in general. While it sounds like tough love which I agree is pretty much bullshit, there really is no way to deal with an avoidance spiral except be forced to deal with the problem. You can train yourself to catch it and force yourself to deal with the problem, but Joyce isn’t there yet. Usually you have to screw up and be forced to confront the issue that didn’t have to be such a big deal and look, handling it now, it isn’t a couple times for that one to start sticking. And she is DEFINITELY starting a spiral in panel one. Given I think all three of them know she’s got that tendency, it could be they’re trying different tacks on ‘do it now’ trying to be the force to break the anxiety pattern. (Interestingly enough, if that is the case, Sarah’s ‘I’ve got Liz so she can apologize too but I can only hold her so long hurry!’ is genuinely pretty smart by adding a time limit. No time to rationalize why you can’t and need to hide in a hole forever, Liz is only here right now and OBVIOUSLY she needs to apologize too. But I suspect I’m reading too much into that one. By that very speculative logic, Dorothy’s appealing via ‘do it, you’ll feel better’ and Joe’s appealing via ‘do it because it WON’T get better if you DON’T do it.’ Bad ways to express the sentiment, but not a terrible plan.)

        4. milu

          good comment! awkwardpalooza awkwardpalooza awkwardpalooza ^^

        5. Regalli

          I was VERY proud once I came up with that phrase! ^^

    3. Robert Thompson

      It’s probably a bad take and the last few days’ comments sections show I’ll get torn into, but a part of me really wants Joyce to snap here.

      Like, the setup of this sequence is her grasping at straws, and then getting ABSOLUTELY HAMMERED WITH GUILT by her “grown up” friends. Regardless of who is right or wrong here, that’s not a good feeling, and part of me wants Joyce to come back with “why do I always have to apologize or fix things? Why does my pain matter so much less?”

      It would be an interesting payoff for this moment/setup for her to start to show a backbone to her friends and stop conforming to others’ expectations as much. That said, Sarah’s among the group urging her to action, and she’s usually the reluctant moral compass to the story.

  41. Alaric

    Does Joyce even realize how much it says about her that she has that many people around her who care about her that much?

    1. Spencer

      I think the problem right now is that none of them are really good at the caring about Joyce thing.

      1. OBBWG

        This is one of the best examples of tough love in this comic so far.

        All of her friends know how important Becky is to Joyce. They are truly BFFs. Maybe their friendship will fade as they drift apart, but now is not the time. Right now, Joyce needs Becky in her life. Her friends know to save that friendship, Joyce must talk to Becky as soon as possible (like about a two minutes ago). The longer this festers the more likely the friendship will end permanently, which will devastate Joyce.

        Spencer, as you pointed out in your excellent essay, Joyce responds best to authority. Her friends know this, at least on some level. They are using all the authority at their command to push her to do the right thing.

        Her friends are all trying to do what they think is right.

        1. Spencer

          It’s tough, but it ain’t love.

          It’s “fix the problem because you’re wrong and the aggressor” regardless of the surrounding minutiae.

          Also when I talked about Joyce’s religious upbringing being less about faith and more about blind obedience in authority, I need to be clear that this was a bad thing, because it shaped Joyce in a way that she has to rely on misguided authority figures to decide her morals.

          For Joyce to be commanded to do the right thing not only vindicates the idea that Joyce needs authority to function, that she can’t be right herself, it also completely ignores why Joyce said all of this and why Becky’s actually mad about it.

        2. OBBWG

          I read it as less “you’re wrong and the aggressor” than “you need to fix this”.

          Dorothy’s “you’re better than this” is not about what Joyce said, but about Joyce’s refusal to take responsibility and fix the problem. And while, as you posted below, “you’re better than this” is usually worthless, in this particular situation it could spur Joyce to take action.

          Joyce does need to grow out of following authority, but growing out of following authority also means learning to take responsibility. Maybe this approach will hurt Joyce in the long run. It certainly ignores why Joyce said what she did. But maybe it will help her learn to better take responsibility for her actions.

        3. Spencer

          Okay see the problem with Dorothy is that Joyce has had a whole two panels to freak out and Dorothy is still being a nagging mother. The problem exists because of Becky and Dorothy, but clean-up is on Joyce, and she’s not even having the chance to explain herself because Dorothy doesn’t care, she just wants Joyce to be “the person Dorothy knows she can be.”

          She’s had time to ask Joyce what is going on, what motivated her to say that, and she has not, because she’s declared Joyce the one who’s doing wrong and thus she needs to be better.

          And, like, she doesn’t actually have to fix this? She wants to because Becky is her best friend in the whole world who she loves more than anyone, but Becky and Dorothy deciding what Joyce’s words mean, and both of them have decided they mean “Joyce has betrayed me in full” but in different ways, that isn’t Joyce’s responsibility, that’s something Joyce has to do because these two idiots decided she did wrong.

          Dorothy and Becky are being assholes, Becky’s just a much more sympathetic asshole because her entire view of Joyce crumbled right now and she just learned that the person she loves more than anyone and who saved her life over and over definitely doesn’t think Becky is ever going to see her mom again.

          And the thing is that “taking responsibility for Becky” is basically Joyce’s full-time job, like I’m not one to hold acts of decency over someone’s head but Joyce has saved Becky from homelessness at risk of expulsion and literally got into a car chase for her that ended with her punching Becky’s dad unconscious. Becky can actually give her the benefit of the doubt once she cools off, Dorothy can sure as fuck do it now.

          But responsibility to make right a situation that’s only wrong because Becky and Dorothy invaded a private conversation because they think they own Joyce, and then not giving their longtime, constantly traumatized friend even five seconds to explain herself?

          They can pound sand.

        4. OBBWG

          And I got ninja’d on one of your later posts. You responded to my first two paragraphs below. Very prescient.

    2. Jamie

      There’s a somewhat iconic scene post-glassing where she notices. I think she’s a little too wrapped up in being the person who caused the drama this time.

  42. Spencer

    Anyway my other Dorothy take is that dealing with someone where hearing them say “I know you’re better than this” is actually the most emotionally devastating thing they can say to you? It’s exhausting and it ain’t healthy.

    Something I’m sort of twigging onto with Joyce and Dorothy’s dynamic lately is that Joyce knows Dorothy is smarter and more mature than her, and Dorothy knows that too. There’s the same conclusion, Dorothy is Better than Joyce, but it starts at a different place for both of them and in Dorothy’s case it’s not malicious like I’m making it sound. Joyce is Extremely Gay for Dorothy and hangs off of her every word, and Dorothy recognizes this. Consequently, Dorothy feels the need to gently teach Joyce the ways of the world and tell her to be better, except “being better” is all filtered from Dorothy, who is, much to her chagrin, humanly fallible like everyone else, except she’s never been humanly fallible in front of Joyce because whatever Dorothy’s faults, Joyce has way, way more.

    I need to go off-script for a second and just say this: whatever intent someone has when saying “be better”, it’s bullshit. It presumes so much moral authority in yourself, that there’s no possibility of your target being right about anything and that regular-ass human fallibility is something to be purged, to the point where it is maybe the most toxic thing you can say to someone. It’s a tool to pile on guilt and shame under the guise of empathy and knowing maturity, and it is employed by morally absolutionist children.

    Do I want my mom to get a grip on her drinking problem and accept that she can make mistakes and not be a bad person? Do I want my stepdad to acknowledge how enabling he’s been of her and to stop fighting me every time I try to talk about it?

    Yep, but that ain’t “be better”, that’s some pretty specific commentary on issues harming all three of us.

    So that’s my views on the concept itself, back to Dorothy: she’s never been in a position where “be better” has been wrong because she’s mostly been trying with a total cartoon character like Joyce and Joyce is doing things like telling Dorothy she can’t have sex with Walky or dating a gay dude.

    Someone tell me if I’m wrong, but this is the first time in the whole series that Joyce has done something that Dorothy has disapproved of where room for nuance actually exists. Dorothy passively tolerated Joyce’s nutbar fundie behaviour because it was mostly harmless and Joyce was always outgrowing it. That’s who Dorothy thinks of when Joyce does something wrong, and seeing Joyce do something she’s decided is wrong, because Becky is sad and therefore there’s no possible room for any other reasoning and if there is Dorothy is sure as hell not interested, Dorothy feels completely confident in jumping straight to Disappointed Mom mode, because she’s always been right to do so previously.

    To cap this off: in writing this, is Joyce even aware she has a point herself? Or is getting told by Dorothy enough to shut her down?

  43. Wendy

    I don’t really get the “JOYCE DID NOTHING WRONG” thing people are yelling about here.

    Is everything Joyce saying and feeling understandable? Yes. But just because feelings are valid doesn’t mean that how you react to them – especially when that deals with other people – is always right. What she’s been doing is painting swaths of people who have been nothing but good to her – including Becky, her father, Lucy, etc. – as “idiots” who have been lying to her on purpose her whole life. Becky’s right that this is a phase she needs to grow out of.

    And I don’t understand everyone saying Becky has been being shitty to Joyce. In the above example, the painting of everyone Joyce grew up around as idiots/liars/both is what Becky meant was a stupid phase, not her growing disenchantment with religion. Her so-called possessiveness of Joyce is obviously tongue-in-cheek; she clearly doesn’t actually hate Dorothy nor does she try to keep Joyce from having other friends.

    So what’s the deal?

    1. Spencer

      An extremely cool guy wrote a character analysis of Joyce grappling with her faith the last few years and what her atheism means to her now up above if you want to read it. It has references!

      But it took me that cool guy five whole pages on a Word document to write, if that ends up being too much to slog through. That cool guy is extremely long winded.

      1. thejeff

        I’ve read it and I’m kind of mystified how to respond to it, because I agree with most of your analysis of Joyce and where she’s coming from, I just don’t agree that it means Joyce did nothing wrong. It means it’s understandable and I can even sympathize with her motivations – I completely see that and have agreed with you there all along.
        But that doesn’t change how I read what she actually said. I don’t think Becky (or Dorothy, I think) are misunderstanding her words. I think they’re probably not reading deeply enough into why she was mocking religious people as idiots, but I do think that’s what her actual words meant. That they came out of her own pain doesn’t change that.

        I also have a view of Becky much closer to Wendy’s here – that the possessiveness is mostly an act and that her motives for looking for Joyce aren’t nearly as dark as they’re painted.

        1. Lauralot

          Bingo.

        2. Wendy

          Yep.

        3. Regalli

          My stance as well. All of that motivation is true… AND Dorothy and Becky heard only the worst parts and couldn’t see the ramp up or know Joyce’s past thoughts and motivations, and so they’re having a reasonable reaction to what they heard. Dorothy should probably recognize by now that there’s more to it than ‘Joyce is bashing religion to her new friend’ and ease off the Mom Friend Disappointment, since she does know Joyce is sort of Anxiously Not Christian Anymore, but I don’t think she really comprehends how deep the issues go and how much their congregation hurt Joyce, and she still didn’t hear the parts where it was clear Joyce was talking about herself. What Dorothy heard is ‘I think people who believe in God are idiots.’ Everyone in this comic can be behaving like an immature teenager simultaneously. Joyce can have very good reasons and not have meant what she was saying to be directed outwards for it to still be reasonably heard and read as something deeply harmful. Dorothy can be concerned in the moment that Joyce might be heading down the annoying superiority atheist hole, and be justified in that concern given what she heard.

        4. Needfuldoer

          This. To Becky and Dorothy, Joyce just pulled that rant out of nowhere. They stumbled upon her maliciously play-acting the role of herself (and by extension, Becky et al) in a mocking tone. I’m sure both their reactions are a mix of “ow what the fuck :'(” and “how could you?!”

      2. Wendy

        You’re not selling this very well, are you.

        1. Spencer

          Did you miss the part about the extremely cool guy.

    2. Deadjolras

      The deal is that Joyce can’t do anything wrong, ever, apparently.

      1. Spencer

        Yeah turns out when you aren’t actually doing something wrong but someone else decides you have, you don’t suddenly become guilty of the thing.

        1. Deadjolras

          Please, don’t reply to me.

      2. Wendy

        My guess is what people are projecting themselves onto Joyce and therefore it would hurt too much for her to be wrong about any of this stuff.

        1. Andy

          Spencer 100% is and has admitted so elsewhere in the comics. I don’t know what similar situation they went through where they truly were innocent but judged guilty, but they’re taking this arc extremely personally as a result.

        2. Spencer

          I’m not going to read any kind of tone into this post as for all I know you are wanting to be helpful and informative, like I chose to write it there and you read it so of course you are allowed to process that for yourself, I’m just going to say that when I relate personal struggles dealing with matters in my life that appear in a comic that is occasionally about deeply emotionally charge events, it’s not so someone on the internet can use it to get a beat on me.

          Like it’s not so someone can talk about me the way I talk about the characters in the comic, you know?

          I reiterate that I have no desire to read any kind of tone or judgment in this post, just that the action itself is something I don’t approve of and would appreciate if it didn’t happen.

        3. Wendy

          Did they. I wouldn’t know, though that’s not surprising. I’m not in the habit of reading five-page Word documents that get pushed on me out of nowhere that I gave no indication of having any interest in reading.

        4. milu

          well, but taking things personally doesn’t mean you can’t discuss them? which Spencer has showed their willingness to do.

          also regarding the post where they decided to explain why they identify with Joyce in this situation: any sharing of personal information online, especially in the context of an argument of any kind, is a show of vulnerability and i appreciate that they did it. i would love it if we could respect that, and not hold it against someone when they share things about them that could help empathize with them but could just as easily be used against them.

          i don’t know that you were trying to undermine them, but in this context it did sound a bit like you were, you know?

        5. RedCat

          It gets really tiring to try to talk to someone who doesn’t want to discuss, but mostly just be agreed with or repeat their opinion.

        6. milu

          that is a valid, but entirely separate point.

        7. milu

          sorry, you were replying to my first paragraph. tired.

        8. Spencer

          I don’t know where you read that into me buddy but I can assure you that you’re mistaken, nor do I know how it’s relevant to “hey don’t use an actual real life human being sharing vulnerability to get one over them.”

  44. Seregiel

    I still don’t get why Joyce isn’t seen as the wronged party. People overheard her because they didn’t respect her autonomy enough to not track her down and insert themselves. This was not a comedy of errors – this was an intentional ignorance of autonomy and disrespect of Joyce’s boundaries to hang out with a certain person to which she didn’t invite others. There is no other reason they’d have gone to Joes.

    1. Spencer

      Regalli brought up a good point that both Joe and Sarah aren’t really judging Joyce so much as encouraging her to do what she already knows she should; go clear things up with Becky, and that’s entirely separate from Joyce being right or wrong.

      Dorothy and Becky certainly think Joyce is the wrong one here, but they’re also heavily biased, ran into a private conversation because Becky wanted to be a sitcom character, and then caught Joyce saying stuff that they’ve misinterpreted because it sounds bad and they lack the full comprehension to know that.

      The problem, of course, is that Dorothy and Becky are so important to Joyce that their judgments mean everything to her to the point where “Becky and Dorothy are mad at me” is enough for Joyce to go full on apology mode, but that doesn’t make them right and I don’t think this particular plot line will end without Dorothy and Becky learning that.

      Because you’re right, this is Becky’s fault, but try telling that to Joyce.

      1. Seregiel

        I meant the majority of the comment section. Sarah is acting like a sister, Joe is describing implications, the only one judging right now in comic seems to be Dorothy.

        1. Spencer

          Oh that.

          Well Becky is sad because of something Joyce said, so the least complicated answer is that this is Joyce’s fault.

          Then you got folks reading Joyce’s words as condemnation of Christians instead of just her and her fucked upbringing, which an incredibly cool and handsome guy wrote a long analysis post dissecting why Joyce is talking about herself and no one else, least of all Becky.

    2. Yotomoe

      I don’t disagree with this but at the same time I think this is only supported because what Joyce was saying was somewhat self critical. People tend to only respect privacy or venting if it’s not harmful. If she was shitting on religions she herself was not a part people might be like “yeah I’m glad she got caught”.

  45. Buli-Buli

    I don’t get where this idea that Becky and Dorothy were in the wrong to go looking for Joyce comes from.

    Joyce wasn’t in the wrong to skip class to hang-out with Liz. Sarah wasn’t in the wrong to skip class to keep an eye on her sister.
    Joyce publicly announced her plans, hung out in public for a while, before ending up in a semi-public place.
    It didn’t even occur to her to even try to hide her activities from Becky and Dorothy until Sarah brought it up.

    Becky and Dorothy hear about Joyce’s skipping and decide to skip to to go hang out with them too.
    Becky is obviously excited to meet Joyce’s Christian facebook friend (and to prove her bonafides as Joyce’s self-declared best friend) and Dorothy (despite her vocal disapproval) is obviously uninterested in going to class when all the others are skipping (not in the least because of who isn’t skipping).

    At no point in this whole process where either of them (who as far as they know and even Sarah is concerned are Joyce’s best friends) given any indication or reason to believe Joyce didn’t want to see them.

    And when they find Joyce (who wasn’t hiding) they hear her talking shit about Becky behind her back.

    And yes. Joyce was venting and referring to herself. It doesn’t matter. She was referring to a group that included Becky and referring to a topic specifically important to Becky.

    Whatever Joyce’s intent was doesn’t matter.
    You don’t get to say something like “X city is a shithole and everyone from there is a shit person” and then say its not your fault if that upsets people because YOU are from X city too and what are people from X city doing in Y city in earshot of me anyway.

    If I shoot someone with a gun, I am not absolved of responsibility because I thought the range was clear.

    1. Buli-Buli

      Just realized my last example doesn’t fit my original point.

      So, to clarify.

      Becky and Dorothy did not wrong Joyce by going looking for her. Nor did they accept responsibility for Joyce’s words and actions by doing so.

      Joyce is not absolved of her responsibility for her words and actions just because her audience was larger than she thought NOR because she didn’t say what she meant or mean what she said.

    2. Robert Thompson

      No, but if you shoot someone accidentally who ran onto the range from where you couldn’t see them and weren’t expecting them because they wanted to surprise you, it’s gonna be hard to claim it was murder. At worst, it would be involuntary manslaughter. Even less if you were told the range was clear (but we don’t have clarity on whether the door was closed when Becky found them).

      1. Buli-Buli

        It was open when Sarah thanked Joe and the wall behind him Joe looks the same whether or not the doorway is visible, so the door wasn’t closed then opened off screen.

        And involuntary manslaughter is still a felony.

      2. Andy

        Your analogy doesn’t hold water. This is more like shooting up into the air and a bullet comes back down and hits someone. You didn’t intend to hurt them, you couldn’t foresee it happening, but if you weren’t doing something dangerous no one would’ve been hurt.

        1. RedCat

          Oh that’s a good one. Or at least very imaginative!

  46. Kravis

    For so little!

  47. milu

    do you sometimes take a step back and sort of marvel at the amount of brain-hours that go into discussing this comic every day? i think some of the commenters here ought to be invited the Ologies podcast. what would be an appropriate expert title? Dumbingologist? <3

  48. Nobonesforever

    Not to be like “Joyce did nothing wrong” but like Joyce didn’t do anything wrong. I do think she should sort things out with Becky but not cuz she owes her an apology for what she said but because they’ve been friends for so long and Becky definitely feels like an outsider on her own friendship and that sucks soooooo bad. They clearly care about each other but there’s a lack of communication here and subsequently a lack of understanding and I think the best thing for both of them is to bridge the dang gap

  49. A. Gorilla

    The Last Two Strips worth of facial expressions have just been *chef’s kiss* across the board

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