I think what makes it sweet is, at least in the way Joyce means it, conveys that you trust them to be around you while in a state that is compromised and vulnerable. You trust that they wouldn’t take advantage of your inebriation to do things you wouldn’t be okay with. As such, I don’t think you need the qualifier that it wouldn’t be sweet to say to some people, since it wouldn’t be *said* to those people in the first place.
Granted, there are other contexts where one might say that line that are rather less sweet, I’ve had people express a desire to get drunk with me specifically because they know I don’t drink and they are curious what I would be like if I ever did, so it’s less about trusting me to be around them while they are vulnerable, but rather wanting to see what I’m like when I am (although phrasing it like that sounds way more predatory than it is, it’s usually just curiosity and amusement driving them rather than anything malicious).
She just wants to have some fun. Girls just want to have fun!
Kyrros
Yes… because drunken people are famously rational and would accept rejection of sexual advances by a sober partner who actually has a healthy understanding of ‘consent’, especially if said drunken partner has a healthy but extremely repressed libido and has finally decided to unwind said repression.
Joe is already on record with this… “Was she underage? Was she drunk? Was she crying?” when chastising Danny for not ‘casual banging’ Billie that one time she came to interview him for the Amazi-Girl story.
With all of the growth his character has experienced, one would be hard-pressed to be able to paint Joe as suddenly having LESS care about consent – even moreso now that this isn’t some casual ‘consenting-adults’ hookup – this is Joyce, someone for whom he has legitimate feelings.
In my own relationships I have a strict Only-Sober policy when it comes to ‘sexy shenanigans’, and only then, after an explicit verbal agreement before any alcohol is consumed would I agree to anything like that (say, for instance, they would like to ‘see what “it” is like when drunk/buzzed), and even then, I will still require myself to be sober (I am a very infrequent drinker, so it’s not really a sacrifice for me) in case the refs need to call a flag on the play.
That, and it’s pretty obvious that Joyce, at this point, is acting in a more ‘performative rebellion’ way, than being her genuine untethered self – which Joe will likely call her on when they’re in private again – which, itself will likely lead to a heated exchange between the two of them over when future physical intimacy will actually take place.
LiamKav
I get that but… this isn’t a stranger. Joyce clearly wants to have sex with him. She has said so multiple times whilst completely sober. If she has a bit to drink and starts coming on to him, Joe really hasn’t got to worry about consent. She’s given it. (Unless she is completely smashed, obviously.)
Now, he might not want to have sex with someone who is drunk for other reasons. And that’s fine. But if it’s just Joyce using alcohol to get over an anxiety issue, then as long as they’ve had a chat beforehand, I don’t see the issue.
thejeff
She’s said it, but always in a futury way, not in a “I’m really okay with it any time now” way. She’d definitely interested, but not necessarily really ready. And making that move while drunk would be questionable.
If they have a chat beforehand, explicitly agreeing they’re going to have sex after the party once she’s drunk, that’s a different story, though still uncomfortable.
Joe especially is going to be thinking of Liz and how she backed off at the last moment, despite seeming enthusiastic before and worrying that a drunk Joyce will feel the same way, but not stop because of the drunkenness.
LiamKav
I do get that. I’m just kinda disagreeing with the idea that any sex with someone who’s had a drink is “uncomfortable”. There’s a whole lot of space to get to before “completely smashed”, and I don’t agree that someone loses all agency the moment they’ve had a sip. Would having sex with someone who has taken medical cannabis also be uncomfortable.
It’s understandable for Joe to be thinking about Liz (if he is), but this isn’t remotely the same situation. He didn’t know Liz. He does know Joyce. He knows what Joyce wants. Joyce is initiating all these actions herself. She isn’t being pressured by anyone. She is actively choosing to get drunk.surrounded by people she trusts with full knowledge of what might happen.
(Now, if it turns out that Joe has an issue with drink for other reasons, that’s fair enough. Maybe his dad is an alcoholic? Maybe he worries that his large sexual appetite might turn in to a large alcohol appetite. Have we ever been told Joe’s opinion on drink?)
Adept
Joy is serious about fitness / body building. Alcohol depresses testosterone levels in men (and elevates them in women). I doubt Joe drinks more than a single social beer now and then possibly.
thejeff
I agree about any sex when drunk. Nothing really wrong with it.
It’s more problematic when it’s your first time with someone. And even more so when it’s their first time at all. Especially if you haven’t explicitly talked about it before.
That said, some people even here put too much focus on the process around consent. The important thing is that everyone is actually willing and especially in the case of alcohol, not regretting it once they’re sober again. The process of getting explicit sober consent is just a clear way of ensuring this. If you go ahead without that, you need to be sure you’re right. If you are right, it doesn’t matter that you skipped some steps, everyone’s still happy.
But early on, it’s much harder to be sure.
Adept
Needing to get drunk for sexy times is a terrible habit to cultivate, and all too common. A bit of alcohol in good company can be pleasant, but ”getting drunk is fun” is a big red flag for me. Alcohol is a very dangerous drug, and usually not worth the health effects and other ways it’s bad for you.
LiamKav
(Replying to both comments)
Joe is also 18, and they’re pretty good at burning the candle at both ends.
And yeah, having to get drunk every time to have sex would be a terrible habit to cultivate, but Joyce has been drunk once and had sex zero times. It’s probably a bit too early to catastophise about that.
Nymph
Getting drunk can be fun though? Like, it’s possible to engage in things in moderation.
Nymph
Yiiiikes. That’s a lot of mileage you got out of completely misunderstanding what I said:
“She can get drunk without them having sex.”
As in, this is a possibility. Plenty of people drink without having sex as a result. The two outcomes are not linked.
I’m not sure where you read any conversation at ALL about consent into that, especially:
“With all of the growth his character has experienced, one would be hard-pressed to be able to paint Joe as suddenly having LESS care about consent-”
Like… go up and point to me where in those 8 words I said anything even remotely like that?? Or where I asked you to tell me your personal standards for when you’ll personally bang someone?
Plenty of drunk people remain rational enough to accept a “no”, there are levels to getting drunk and people are individuals. Before you twist this as hard as you twisted the last thing: No, I am not trying to say that Joe should have sex with a drunk Joyce. I am saying it’s super SUPER weird this became a consent conversation when I was talking about it being possible to drink without then having sex. Like the literal correlation between the two things.
Wild thing to come back to. Absolutely wild.
clif
So you admit to having had sex with Hitler?
marcus erronius
Go back and read it again.
It was a threesome with Hitler and Stalin.
Nymph
Okay this cracked me up, thank you
marcus erronius
I won’t get in to the other points, but I want to address the part about “performative rebellion”. I’m rather certain that’s not what she’s been doing. There’s a huge difference between performative rebellion (“I know this is wrong but I’m doing it anyway because I want to be seen as one of the cool people”) and trying to get over your own hangups, or straight up indoctrination (“I know this isn’t wrong, but it still feels wrong because I was taught it was, I need get used to doing the thing so I can get over that incorrect feeling”).
Joyce is trying to figure out what her “normal, untethered self” is. She dropped an F bomb, realized it wasn’t going to kill her, realized she didn’t feel dirty for it, then said it several more times while riding the high of discovering one more aspect of normal life that she could participate in and feel more normal because of. Those F bombs weren’t performative, they were celebratory.
I don’t think they’ll have drunk sex. It might get close, but I’ll be shocked if it happens that way. Also, Joe is clearly in love, and it’s clear to me that he’s excited to be with her during this time of personal growth for her. It’s like… his old persona essentially said he’d turn her into a “10” with his d*ck; but really he had it backward. Instead he’s lucky enough to be with her and follow her journey of self-acceptance, and in the end he gets to have a relationship with the new Joyce: open and free and able to be her true self without all the lies she was indoctrinated with.
(This might come across as super pro-Joe, but I while I think he’s improving, I’ve still my eye on him. No backsliding, mister ?
SailorCakes
You express everything I was also thinking so elegantly! Bravo sir ?
thejeff
I don’t think it’s performative rebellion, at least not in the “I still think it’s bad” sense, but it’s still at least partly performative. In the sense that it’s an exaggerated reaction to breaking out of her old limits.
This can be a good stage, but it’s still one where it’s easy to go farther than you really want.
Don’t try to communicate “in a low key way” with someone who’s autistic. Just tell us what you want to communicate, we tend to be bad at that guessing game mind reading bullshit.
Tan
I don’t disagree, but some shit is hard to say when it involves personal vulnerability you didn’t necessarily even know you had until that moment. He’s also trying not to say anything that’s going to discourage/hurt Joyce, or (and this is an unreasonable fear, but it’s there) accidentally talk Joyce out of being with him. He’s working on it.
lyzyrdwyzyrd
Hell, it’s true generally.
Say what you mean.
My partner and I are not autistic — but this sort of thing might end our marriage.
If you try to communicate in a low-key way you’ll end up with no one but yourself to blame if people don’t pick it up.
Tan
I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to ask for what you want without making a big deal about it on the first ask, as Joe is doing here. It’s only a problem if Joe fails to follow up, or follows up in an angry/blaming manner.
I don’t get where people are getting all these negatives reading of the situation here. Joyce is having a good time and I really don’t see Joe being overly against anything she is saying. It confuses me.
Because we can all see the train wreck coming and Joyce has her airpods in.
He’s stuttering and shifty glancing, and she’s not listening to the apparent concerns he’s trying to express, albeit he’s doing a terrible job of getting his foot out of his mouth about things.
Joe is quickly approaching a brake check while joyce is chucking more coal into the engine.
Then add in the dumpster fire of her probably having a drunken panic attack relating to being roofied and nearly sexually assaulted, with Joe’s issues concerning being a monster undeserving of love….
Meagan
Exactly. Poor Joe.
Emil
I sorta agree. While unintentionally, Joyce is definitely sending the wrong vibes. The guy wants to feel like a boyfriend, not like Joyce’s walk on the wild side. Remember Boosters reaction shen he realized that like it or not, he’ll be seen not as much as a person, but as a chapter of Joyce’s journey of self discovery?
Theres always people in this comment section that have some white-hot takes. I generously assume they’re too young to have had a real relationship, the alternative is a bit… incel-y. Like relationships are all some drama movie, you can’t just chill with a partner and have fun.
Meagan
I don’t think this is a fair take. Fictional media frequently portrays romantic relationships as all-drama no-chill. It’s fair to guess/assume that fictional romances will involve drama on any given day, even if you know that’s not how real life works.
thejeff
Plus “Damn You Willis” has set precedent.
Meagan
Exactly. Expecting drama here is being genre/fandom-savvy!
We already know that Joe doesn’t, at least. I think his criteria early on when scolding Danny for being kind of patronizing about not having sex with Billie (since Danny left out that it was because of Amazi-Girl) was that if a gal isn’t “drunk or crying”, that they are capable of granting informed consent. And that was Joe in a more morally dubious time, so if he wasn’t keen on the idea of sex with a drunk girl before, he sure as shit wouldn’t be now.
Drinking and drunk are not synonymous.
There’s ‘I’m a little tipsy, but still have my wits about me’ where you’re inhibitions are lowered but not gone. Useful for someone who wants sex but has a lot of inhibitions due to how they were raised, and wants to lower said inhibitions down a bit.
Now, it’s probably safer, especially with strangers to have a black and white line; but I’m not sure Joe meant it that way.
Personally, I can’t have drugs and sex. I get motion sick.
Adept
”Useful” as it may seem, it’s a terrible idea. This leads to not being able to have sex without alcohol.
thejeff
It can lead to. Or more likely, you’re already there and thus not able to have sex at all.
But it can also just be enough to get over the hump the first time with someone and then be okay to continue.
lyzyrdwyzyrd
I was thinking moreso the first time or the first time with a new partner.
Benzos could be used/abused the same way.
As could cannabis.
Some people are really high strung about this sort of thing.
Mark
See, what I worry about is a bit later when the inhibitions shrug off the alcohol and begin shouting “now you’ve done it!”
Its not unethical if they made their intentions clear before they got drunk, it is kind of a let down. Like “you wouldn’t have me unless you’re all sloppy and stupid” isn’t the best feeling imho
Consent isn’t consent if it can’t be withdrawn. And alcohol makes that problematic. (ESPECIALLY if a first time situation is on the horizon.)
New Joe is doing pretty damn well on his ethics tests.
VicMortimer
Hard disagree on the first part of that, it’s definitely possible to give consent ahead of time with the understanding that you won’t be in a position to withdraw it later. In a BDSM context, that’s something that should only be done with the understanding that somebody is monitoring you carefully to be sure you’re not in danger, but pre-consent to a situation and playing without a safeword is absolutely a kink some people have.
Definitely a VERY BAD IDEA for a first time situation, though. It’s expert-level.
Nobody in the comments seems to be recognising the difference between is it ethical, and is it a good idea.
Joyce has given pretty clear consent while sober, I don’t think it would be unethical if they got drunk and did sex things.
I do think it would be a bad idea, Joe seems to be anxious about it, Joyce seems to be rushing into things out of a sense of rebellion, it is risky that it might make either of them feel bad during or after.
But neither of them are mind readers and with the info each of them has, it wouldn’t make either of them a moral terror if it happened, just might cause bad feelings.
268 thoughts on “Coat”
Ana Chronistic
would that mean Carla has to do JOE’S make-up too
ian livs
He would look fantastic, tbh
Michael Steamweed
Carla applies Joe’s makeup; Booster takes very careful notes.
Amós Batista
OK I need this plot
NGPZ
*plays “Paralyzer” by Finger Eleven on hacked muzak*
Nono
Joe is basically like Dorothy, in that Joyce finds both of them attractive and would do laundry and get drunk with.
shadowcell
Dumbing of Age Book 14: It Doesn’t Always Have to End With Some Jerk Drugging You and You Stabbing His Face! That’s Only Sometimes!
GholaHalleck
I really do not *want* to be right about that making a comeback during their initial attempts at sexy time….
But that shadow is VERY Fore’ed right now.
IntangibleMatter
“I’d like to get drunk with you” is honestly a weirdly sweet thing to say to someone.
Unless you’re saying it to Jennifer.
Proxiehunter
Or Ruth.
Needfuldoer
Or Jennifer saying it to Ruth.
Psychie
I think what makes it sweet is, at least in the way Joyce means it, conveys that you trust them to be around you while in a state that is compromised and vulnerable. You trust that they wouldn’t take advantage of your inebriation to do things you wouldn’t be okay with. As such, I don’t think you need the qualifier that it wouldn’t be sweet to say to some people, since it wouldn’t be *said* to those people in the first place.
Granted, there are other contexts where one might say that line that are rather less sweet, I’ve had people express a desire to get drunk with me specifically because they know I don’t drink and they are curious what I would be like if I ever did, so it’s less about trusting me to be around them while they are vulnerable, but rather wanting to see what I’m like when I am (although phrasing it like that sounds way more predatory than it is, it’s usually just curiosity and amusement driving them rather than anything malicious).
Marvelman
I still don’t think Joe is digging the new Joyce.
Dday
Yeah, she’s kinda sucking the romance out of things, i doubt joe wanted her drunk for their first time
Nymph
She can get drunk without them having sex.
Vanessa
She just wants to have some fun. Girls just want to have fun!
Kyrros
Yes… because drunken people are famously rational and would accept rejection of sexual advances by a sober partner who actually has a healthy understanding of ‘consent’, especially if said drunken partner has a healthy but extremely repressed libido and has finally decided to unwind said repression.
Joe is already on record with this… “Was she underage? Was she drunk? Was she crying?” when chastising Danny for not ‘casual banging’ Billie that one time she came to interview him for the Amazi-Girl story.
With all of the growth his character has experienced, one would be hard-pressed to be able to paint Joe as suddenly having LESS care about consent – even moreso now that this isn’t some casual ‘consenting-adults’ hookup – this is Joyce, someone for whom he has legitimate feelings.
In my own relationships I have a strict Only-Sober policy when it comes to ‘sexy shenanigans’, and only then, after an explicit verbal agreement before any alcohol is consumed would I agree to anything like that (say, for instance, they would like to ‘see what “it” is like when drunk/buzzed), and even then, I will still require myself to be sober (I am a very infrequent drinker, so it’s not really a sacrifice for me) in case the refs need to call a flag on the play.
That, and it’s pretty obvious that Joyce, at this point, is acting in a more ‘performative rebellion’ way, than being her genuine untethered self – which Joe will likely call her on when they’re in private again – which, itself will likely lead to a heated exchange between the two of them over when future physical intimacy will actually take place.
LiamKav
I get that but… this isn’t a stranger. Joyce clearly wants to have sex with him. She has said so multiple times whilst completely sober. If she has a bit to drink and starts coming on to him, Joe really hasn’t got to worry about consent. She’s given it. (Unless she is completely smashed, obviously.)
Now, he might not want to have sex with someone who is drunk for other reasons. And that’s fine. But if it’s just Joyce using alcohol to get over an anxiety issue, then as long as they’ve had a chat beforehand, I don’t see the issue.
thejeff
She’s said it, but always in a futury way, not in a “I’m really okay with it any time now” way. She’d definitely interested, but not necessarily really ready. And making that move while drunk would be questionable.
If they have a chat beforehand, explicitly agreeing they’re going to have sex after the party once she’s drunk, that’s a different story, though still uncomfortable.
Joe especially is going to be thinking of Liz and how she backed off at the last moment, despite seeming enthusiastic before and worrying that a drunk Joyce will feel the same way, but not stop because of the drunkenness.
LiamKav
I do get that. I’m just kinda disagreeing with the idea that any sex with someone who’s had a drink is “uncomfortable”. There’s a whole lot of space to get to before “completely smashed”, and I don’t agree that someone loses all agency the moment they’ve had a sip. Would having sex with someone who has taken medical cannabis also be uncomfortable.
It’s understandable for Joe to be thinking about Liz (if he is), but this isn’t remotely the same situation. He didn’t know Liz. He does know Joyce. He knows what Joyce wants. Joyce is initiating all these actions herself. She isn’t being pressured by anyone. She is actively choosing to get drunk.surrounded by people she trusts with full knowledge of what might happen.
(Now, if it turns out that Joe has an issue with drink for other reasons, that’s fair enough. Maybe his dad is an alcoholic? Maybe he worries that his large sexual appetite might turn in to a large alcohol appetite. Have we ever been told Joe’s opinion on drink?)
Adept
Joy is serious about fitness / body building. Alcohol depresses testosterone levels in men (and elevates them in women). I doubt Joe drinks more than a single social beer now and then possibly.
thejeff
I agree about any sex when drunk. Nothing really wrong with it.
It’s more problematic when it’s your first time with someone. And even more so when it’s their first time at all. Especially if you haven’t explicitly talked about it before.
That said, some people even here put too much focus on the process around consent. The important thing is that everyone is actually willing and especially in the case of alcohol, not regretting it once they’re sober again. The process of getting explicit sober consent is just a clear way of ensuring this. If you go ahead without that, you need to be sure you’re right. If you are right, it doesn’t matter that you skipped some steps, everyone’s still happy.
But early on, it’s much harder to be sure.
Adept
Needing to get drunk for sexy times is a terrible habit to cultivate, and all too common. A bit of alcohol in good company can be pleasant, but ”getting drunk is fun” is a big red flag for me. Alcohol is a very dangerous drug, and usually not worth the health effects and other ways it’s bad for you.
LiamKav
(Replying to both comments)
Joe is also 18, and they’re pretty good at burning the candle at both ends.
And yeah, having to get drunk every time to have sex would be a terrible habit to cultivate, but Joyce has been drunk once and had sex zero times. It’s probably a bit too early to catastophise about that.
Nymph
Getting drunk can be fun though? Like, it’s possible to engage in things in moderation.
Nymph
Yiiiikes. That’s a lot of mileage you got out of completely misunderstanding what I said:
“She can get drunk without them having sex.”
As in, this is a possibility. Plenty of people drink without having sex as a result. The two outcomes are not linked.
I’m not sure where you read any conversation at ALL about consent into that, especially:
“With all of the growth his character has experienced, one would be hard-pressed to be able to paint Joe as suddenly having LESS care about consent-”
Like… go up and point to me where in those 8 words I said anything even remotely like that?? Or where I asked you to tell me your personal standards for when you’ll personally bang someone?
Plenty of drunk people remain rational enough to accept a “no”, there are levels to getting drunk and people are individuals. Before you twist this as hard as you twisted the last thing: No, I am not trying to say that Joe should have sex with a drunk Joyce. I am saying it’s super SUPER weird this became a consent conversation when I was talking about it being possible to drink without then having sex. Like the literal correlation between the two things.
Wild thing to come back to. Absolutely wild.
clif
So you admit to having had sex with Hitler?
marcus erronius
Go back and read it again.
It was a threesome with Hitler and Stalin.
Nymph
Okay this cracked me up, thank you
marcus erronius
I won’t get in to the other points, but I want to address the part about “performative rebellion”. I’m rather certain that’s not what she’s been doing. There’s a huge difference between performative rebellion (“I know this is wrong but I’m doing it anyway because I want to be seen as one of the cool people”) and trying to get over your own hangups, or straight up indoctrination (“I know this isn’t wrong, but it still feels wrong because I was taught it was, I need get used to doing the thing so I can get over that incorrect feeling”).
Joyce is trying to figure out what her “normal, untethered self” is. She dropped an F bomb, realized it wasn’t going to kill her, realized she didn’t feel dirty for it, then said it several more times while riding the high of discovering one more aspect of normal life that she could participate in and feel more normal because of. Those F bombs weren’t performative, they were celebratory.
I don’t think they’ll have drunk sex. It might get close, but I’ll be shocked if it happens that way. Also, Joe is clearly in love, and it’s clear to me that he’s excited to be with her during this time of personal growth for her. It’s like… his old persona essentially said he’d turn her into a “10” with his d*ck; but really he had it backward. Instead he’s lucky enough to be with her and follow her journey of self-acceptance, and in the end he gets to have a relationship with the new Joyce: open and free and able to be her true self without all the lies she was indoctrinated with.
(This might come across as super pro-Joe, but I while I think he’s improving, I’ve still my eye on him. No backsliding, mister ?
SailorCakes
You express everything I was also thinking so elegantly! Bravo sir ?
thejeff
I don’t think it’s performative rebellion, at least not in the “I still think it’s bad” sense, but it’s still at least partly performative. In the sense that it’s an exaggerated reaction to breaking out of her old limits.
This can be a good stage, but it’s still one where it’s easy to go farther than you really want.
Lia
nah this is romance. maybe he doesnt like it but thats not her fault
Nymph
Agreed! This is a show of trust, a want to share something fun with him, and some hang out time with friends together. That’s absolutely romance.
brumagem
I’m choosing to read it as Joe being generally trepidatious about being in a committed romantic relationship
Tan
She’s hitting him right in the insecurities and not picking up on him trying to communicate that in a low-key way
Proxiehunter
Don’t try to communicate “in a low key way” with someone who’s autistic. Just tell us what you want to communicate, we tend to be bad at that guessing game mind reading bullshit.
Tan
I don’t disagree, but some shit is hard to say when it involves personal vulnerability you didn’t necessarily even know you had until that moment. He’s also trying not to say anything that’s going to discourage/hurt Joyce, or (and this is an unreasonable fear, but it’s there) accidentally talk Joyce out of being with him. He’s working on it.
lyzyrdwyzyrd
Hell, it’s true generally.
Say what you mean.
My partner and I are not autistic — but this sort of thing might end our marriage.
Mr D phone posting
If you try to communicate in a low-key way you’ll end up with no one but yourself to blame if people don’t pick it up.
Tan
I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to ask for what you want without making a big deal about it on the first ask, as Joe is doing here. It’s only a problem if Joe fails to follow up, or follows up in an angry/blaming manner.
Jeremiah
I don’t get where people are getting all these negatives reading of the situation here. Joyce is having a good time and I really don’t see Joe being overly against anything she is saying. It confuses me.
GholaHalleck
Because we can all see the train wreck coming and Joyce has her airpods in.
He’s stuttering and shifty glancing, and she’s not listening to the apparent concerns he’s trying to express, albeit he’s doing a terrible job of getting his foot out of his mouth about things.
Joe is quickly approaching a brake check while joyce is chucking more coal into the engine.
Then add in the dumpster fire of her probably having a drunken panic attack relating to being roofied and nearly sexually assaulted, with Joe’s issues concerning being a monster undeserving of love….
Meagan
Exactly. Poor Joe.
Emil
I sorta agree. While unintentionally, Joyce is definitely sending the wrong vibes. The guy wants to feel like a boyfriend, not like Joyce’s walk on the wild side. Remember Boosters reaction shen he realized that like it or not, he’ll be seen not as much as a person, but as a chapter of Joyce’s journey of self discovery?
Adept
Doesn’t Booster go with they?
Nymph
Yep. Booster’s pronouns are they/them!
Emil
Yep, correct. This one’s on me.
Erica
You don’t see the concern in his facial expressions?
Jeremiah
No, I sincerely do not.
Taffy
I don’t. It looks like mild puzzlement to me.
Nymph
Yep!
GreyICE
Theres always people in this comment section that have some white-hot takes. I generously assume they’re too young to have had a real relationship, the alternative is a bit… incel-y. Like relationships are all some drama movie, you can’t just chill with a partner and have fun.
Meagan
I don’t think this is a fair take. Fictional media frequently portrays romantic relationships as all-drama no-chill. It’s fair to guess/assume that fictional romances will involve drama on any given day, even if you know that’s not how real life works.
thejeff
Plus “Damn You Willis” has set precedent.
Meagan
Exactly. Expecting drama here is being genre/fandom-savvy!
Nymph
I’m with you on this, tbh.
SailorCakes
I’m with both of you on this as well. We must join forces :3
Jeremiah
We will be invincible!
SailorCakes
With our powers combine we will protect this Joyce/Joe ship!
lyzyrdwyzyrd
I don’t think so either. And neither am I honestly.
Slartibeast Button, BIA
So are we heading up to the “Is it ethical to have first time sex with someone who has been drinking?” discussion in a dozen or so strips?
DailyBrad
We already know that Joe doesn’t, at least. I think his criteria early on when scolding Danny for being kind of patronizing about not having sex with Billie (since Danny left out that it was because of Amazi-Girl) was that if a gal isn’t “drunk or crying”, that they are capable of granting informed consent. And that was Joe in a more morally dubious time, so if he wasn’t keen on the idea of sex with a drunk girl before, he sure as shit wouldn’t be now.
lyzyrdwyzyrd
Drinking and drunk are not synonymous.
There’s ‘I’m a little tipsy, but still have my wits about me’ where you’re inhibitions are lowered but not gone. Useful for someone who wants sex but has a lot of inhibitions due to how they were raised, and wants to lower said inhibitions down a bit.
Now, it’s probably safer, especially with strangers to have a black and white line; but I’m not sure Joe meant it that way.
Personally, I can’t have drugs and sex. I get motion sick.
Adept
”Useful” as it may seem, it’s a terrible idea. This leads to not being able to have sex without alcohol.
thejeff
It can lead to. Or more likely, you’re already there and thus not able to have sex at all.
But it can also just be enough to get over the hump the first time with someone and then be okay to continue.
lyzyrdwyzyrd
I was thinking moreso the first time or the first time with a new partner.
Benzos could be used/abused the same way.
As could cannabis.
Some people are really high strung about this sort of thing.
Mark
See, what I worry about is a bit later when the inhibitions shrug off the alcohol and begin shouting “now you’ve done it!”
Dday
Its not unethical if they made their intentions clear before they got drunk, it is kind of a let down. Like “you wouldn’t have me unless you’re all sloppy and stupid” isn’t the best feeling imho
butting
Consent isn’t consent if it can’t be withdrawn. And alcohol makes that problematic. (ESPECIALLY if a first time situation is on the horizon.)
New Joe is doing pretty damn well on his ethics tests.
VicMortimer
Hard disagree on the first part of that, it’s definitely possible to give consent ahead of time with the understanding that you won’t be in a position to withdraw it later. In a BDSM context, that’s something that should only be done with the understanding that somebody is monitoring you carefully to be sure you’re not in danger, but pre-consent to a situation and playing without a safeword is absolutely a kink some people have.
Definitely a VERY BAD IDEA for a first time situation, though. It’s expert-level.
Rowan
Nobody in the comments seems to be recognising the difference between is it ethical, and is it a good idea.
Joyce has given pretty clear consent while sober, I don’t think it would be unethical if they got drunk and did sex things.
I do think it would be a bad idea, Joe seems to be anxious about it, Joyce seems to be rushing into things out of a sense of rebellion, it is risky that it might make either of them feel bad during or after.
But neither of them are mind readers and with the info each of them has, it wouldn’t make either of them a moral terror if it happened, just might cause bad feelings.
thejeff