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Crampy
Posted on May 14, 2022 by David M Willis
The Dumbing of Age Book 11 Kickstarter is live! I Excised All my Anxieties into Cartoon Characters Who Definitely Don't Have Feelings for Each Other will collect "Year Eleven," spanning the five storylines that start on September 10, 2020, and complete on August 26, 2021. This includes new commentary, 24 Patreon bonus strips, behind-the-scenes artwork, and new character designs into an 224-page tome with luxurious glossy paper all bound up into a sturdy presentation.   10 character magnets are unlocked, with more to come!   11 days to go!

275 thoughts on “Crampy”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    “Joyce, just come the fuck with me before the Supreme Court takes away our HIPAA rights”

    1. Ana Chronistic

      interestingly, I recently read this dollar store novel about a cult AND a pandemic

      printed in 2019!

      1. True Survivor

        Looks interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

      2. Z

        I found a 2013 webcomic about a pandemic. The start actually matches covid response pretty well. https://sssscomic.com/

        Then the rest is a post-apocalyptic Scandinavian folklore that’s really good. Unfortunately the author went born again after the real covid so now the modern work is start-of-comic Joyce. C’est la vie. That comic is still good though.

    2. Queen Anthai

      TOO SOON

    3. JBento

      Dunno about HIPAA, but I’m pretty sure birth control is being eyed for the chopping block.

      1. Agemegos

        Same-sex marriage, too. I would guess that interracial marriages are not under serious threat yet.

        1. JBento

          Presumably Thomas isn’t going to vote against interracial marriages. PRESUMABLY.

        2. Victor

          He’s in DC, his marriage wouldn’t be voided. As far as that goes, every state has now repealed the miscegenation laws (Alabama’s was the last to go, in 2000), so no marriages would actually be in danger if he did. So yes, I think he actually would.

        3. JBento

          Oh, that’s right, I keep forgetting that the US legal… “quaintness” was apparently designed by racist, mysogynistic babboons on an acid trip by smashing their asses onto a keyboard.

        4. C.T. Phipps

          It saddens me the only people who seem to think Christianity’s primary goals as a politician should be helping the poor are Biden. The Supreme Court and seemingly entire GOP ignore anything Christ-like to engage in nothing but misogyny and hate.

        5. Daniel M Ball

          Could it possibly be that the original decision used shaky ground? Think aobut it, when Roe vs. Wade was ruled, the Federal Government wasn’t legally allowed to hold citizens as political prisoners without charge or trial, Civil Asset Forfieture was NOT the law of the land, there were no star-chamber courts like the FISC (Federal Intelligence Surveillance Court) able to issue blind warrants for surveillance, and we didn’t have, or have a percieved need, for a ‘ministry of truth’. (The sedition act of 1917 was overturned in the 1920s by what is arguably a far more conservative court).

          Of course, at the time we had William O. Douglas on the supreme court.

          But see, ‘rights to privacy’ or rights to private interactions have been eroded deeply, your civil liberties have been handed out to alphabet agencies, and even the ACLU doesn’t believe all the bill of rights actually is the law, or should be applied evenly.

          So…you get the court you’ve prepared the culture to have. Ten years ago the case wouldn’t have even made it to the docket, much less had a hearing, but then, ten years ago we didn’t have a serious debate on bodily autonomy involving vaccines and masks, either. The actions with the Mandates set the stage here-if the Federal Government can mandate you get the shot, or buy health insurance, then obviously it can tell you your mother, wife, or daughter is a state-owned babymaking machine and not a real person with bodily autonomy and 4th amendment protections, and since Joe Biden has stated that “your rights aren’t absolute”, guess what??

          yeah, even when you don’t like the outcome, by making it possible, you’ve made it possible.

        6. Andy

          Most of this is senseless drivel, but let’s focus on one thing: this is NOT the court the left has prepared the culture to get. This is the court that the right has pushed through by obstructing the left’s nominee and fast-tracking their own in a show of massive hypocrisy. Vaccine mandates and mask mandates and civil liberties have nothing to do with the court’s makeup and decision. Those are all distractions from the issue at hand, which is that Republicans have abused their power to get a Supreme Court that is far more conservative than American society actually is.

        7. Daniel M Ball

          Yes, Andy, it IS. Here’s how: Every time you expand government’s reach, you open yourself to unpleasant and unwanted consequences. The ‘left’ of twenty years ago bears almost NO resemblance to people identifying as “left” in the present day. You can call this “Progressive”-by expanding the reach and depth of government involvement, you open your personal life and autonomy to that government’s control-and once you establish more control, you can’t be certain it isn’t going to be abused.

          The question of Bodily Autonomy in particular, should concern you, (I know, it only concerns you on hot-button issues). If you can restrict someone else’s freedom of choice on medical issues, they can restrict YOURS.

          see how that works? If I can strip someone of basic 1st amendment rights over a medical thing (say, “get a vaccine passport or be a shut-in”) then they can, in turn, say “Well, if my body isn’t my property, then yours isn’t yours either, and I don’t like you defending it.”

          and there you go. If it’s legitimate for Uncle Sam to strip another citizen of their rights over something medical, then they can strip yours. That’s how ‘equal under law’ works. It USED TO BE a Liberal pillar, it isn’t anymore, and because such a GOOD job has been done of knocking that pillar, this case got the traction it wouldn’t have had ten or twenty years ago, when we weren’t busy building a structure to restore segregation and sell the idea of Demographic Rights and Group Guilt based solely on how someone was born.

          This situation? with the ruling? that’s UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES and you can expect to see MORE of them.

        8. davidbreslin101

          There is something fundamentally wrong when the highest court in the land, instead of being impartial, is 100% full of political appointees.

        9. C.T. Phipps

          Allow me rather than argue on ideological grounds to argue instead on legal precedent grounds: Roe vs. Wade was established law for fifty years and all of the Supreme Court Justices swore that they would protect it in their confirmation hearings.

          They are thus perjurers and unfit for their office.

          Legal precedent is how we establish common law in America and if they do not respect it, they have no business being on the Supreme Court.

        10. JBento

          Susan Collins, for one, is extremely shocked and upset that all these people, who’d already proven they were terrible people repeatedly and long before their confirmation hearings, lied to her, though not as shocked and upset as she is about someone writing a polite message in chalk on the sidewalk in front of her house.

        11. Paradox

          If we are going to argue on legal grounds, the 10th amendment of the US constitution says that any power not explicitly granted to the federal government is a state level issue

          Roe V Wade violates the 10th amendment (as does like 90% of what the US federal government does)

          Thats the problem, congress has the power to amend the constitution, but actively chooses not to, so we get things that really should be federal issues get thrown out because the politicians refuse to do their f***ing jobs

        12. Agemegos

          On the other hand, we often make progress by overturning precedents. It ought not to have required a constitutional amendment to overturn Dredd Scott v. Sandford, a decision that was blatantly ill-reasoned.

        13. JBento

          Lol, no, fuck you all the way to Pluto and back.

          Vaccines and masks aren’t matters of “personal autonomy”, unless you intend to lock yourself in a room and not come into contact with anyone ever again.

          Again, fuck you.

        14. Nathan

          Thank you

        15. JBento

          Man, if you want to sell me a christian, you’re gonna have to do WAY better than Biden, the dude who said that ending segregation would make his kids live in the jungles, said that there was no point in doing anything about Republicans eroding voting rights because people were just going to organise harder, and that had his press secretary come out in a huff saying how terrible it was that protesters are making the SCOTUS judges upset, how dare they, the poor SCOTUS babies.

        16. Andy

          Biden is the most milquetoast Democrat that could’ve been elected and I am praying to all the gods that we actually get someone progressive past the primaries. Preferably someone who won’t make campaign promises and then spend the first year and a half talking about how he can’t actually fulfill those promises (*cough*studentdebt*cough*)

        17. C.T. Phipps

          A note on Susan Collins. Susan Collins voted with the other Republicans to shoot down the codifying.

          Nothing she says is anything but lies. She is an extremist like the rest.

        18. JBento

          As always, the surefire way to tell if a Republican is lying is if its lips are moving.

        19. Andy

          That’s hardly accurate, JBento. Sometimes they type their lies, too.

        20. JBento

          Yeah, but they move their lips while doing it.

        21. Agemegos

          That too, but my thought was rather that the conservative voter base no longer holds an animus against racially diverse marriages that is strong enough and widespread enough to drive the legislation that would end up getting appealed. It would be like trying to ban divorce or enforce criminal penalties for blowjobs and adultery.

        22. Andy

          They no longer hold an animus that they express loudly and publicly. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they’re just waiting for it to be socially acceptable again to speak up.

        23. Nathan

          This. In Buffalo, NY, a white friend of mine (who was passing as a cis woman at the time) went into a bar with a black boyfriend. Someone hung up a noose while they were sitting there. The white supremacists are plentiful.

          I honestly believe the only reason I don’t see red MAGA caps on white people in NYC is because they know someone will kick their ass if they wear that racist propoganda.

        24. Agemegos

          🙁

          I can’t say you’re wrong, but I hope you are. As do you, I guess.

        25. Jungle Dwayne

          Wouldn’t put it past him to pull a “The Only Moral Interracial Marriage Is My Interracial Marriage.”

      2. Decidedly Orthogonal

        Something something, right-wing cough should grumble real chopping block, mutter mutter

      3. Andy

        To an extent, I think HIPAA being slashed will be a side effect of allowing abortion to be criminalized, and allowing people to sue those who assist people in getting an abortion. If there’s a clinic that provides both birth control and abortion, for example, suing or bringing charges against a person who visits that clinic will require them to disclose their reason for visiting and/or their medical history to clear their name. Possibly they’d be able to plead the 5th, but I suspect the response from the right would be to undercut HIPAA in order to force disclosure from the clinic.

  2. The Wellerman

    All that is solid melts into air,
    All that is holy is profaned!

    We carry on this epic journey,
    To BREAK THESE FUCKING CHAINS!!!!

    ?? ??? ? ?

    *plays “Through The Fire And Flames” by DragonForce on hacked muzak*

  3. Sirksome

    Where’s the kablooey? There was supposed to be an Earth shattering KABLOOEY!

    1. Agemegos

      Quite.

      Joyce didn’t need to have her agency over-ridden by infantilising friends. Similarly, her (as yet hypothetical) gynaecologist didn’t need to have Becky and Dorothy pre-empt their diagnosis and prescription.

      1. Clif

        Well, she’s getting off to a good start anyway.

        1. Agemegos

          ?

      2. Tan

        Declining to talk someone into something is denying them agency? They’re not STOPPING her from seeing a doctor, they’re just not inserting themselves into the situation to suggest it.

        1. Agemegos

          Not what I meant. I’m sorry not to have been more clear.

          Buffaloing Joyce into consulting a doctor about her dysmenorrhea (e.g. in some analogue of the way Dorothy and Becky did to get her to take an eye exam and buy glasses) would have been over-riding her agency. And fortunately she turned out not in any sense to need that. Becky and Dorothy did indeed refrain from infantilising Joyce, and did not deny her agency.

          Joyce seems to be on the way to a gynaecologist without having her agency over-ridden by infantilising friends. She didn’t need it, contrary to Becky’s and Joyce’s estimation.

        2. Spencer

          Dorothy and Becky didn’t refrain from infantilizing Joyce; they infantilized her to such a degree that they didn’t think it was capable to have this conversation in the slightest.

          While comparing her to a dog who has to have its meds hidden in peanut butter. So, y’know, guess they didn’t infantilize her.

        3. anonymsly

          A dog who couldn’t even have meds hidden in peanut butter because lol lol lol super dumb about food: even worse imo.

        4. Needfuldoer

          They infantilized so hard the scale wrapped back around.

        5. Agemegos

          They thought of her as an infant. But they did not effectually reduce her into infant lack of agency.

          I do not go along with that Matthew 5:28 horseshit that thinking of something is exactly or morally the same as doing it.

        6. Spencer

          Wait, sorry. That’s what you’re saying, you’re talking about the glasses in that second paragraph.

          My bad!

        7. Agemegos

          Sorry. I’m struggling to be clear, with little success.

          When they buffaloed Joyce into taking an eye exam and getting glasses, Dorothy and Becky overbore her will, which was ethically wrong and is not excused by the fact that Joyce did in fact need glasses. A good end does not justify unjust means.

          When the question arose of Joyce consulting a doctor about her period pain, Dorothy and Becky made two errors, one of fact and another in ethics, but then they refrained from wrong action for a separate reason, so they did not end up in that case overbearing her will. The error of fact was that they supposed that Joyce would not go to see a doctor unless buffaloed or bullied into it. The error in ethics is that they supposed they have the authority to buffalo Joyce into action against her will.

          Jennifer has demonstrated the error of fact, i.e. shown that Joyce will accept a recommendation that she see a doctor without needing to be treated as their child.

          As Clif points out, it remains to be seen what the doctor will diagnose and prescribe, and whether Joyce will handle that prescription well. Becky and Dorothy suppose that she will react so badly that there would be no good end to justify coercion, and that, rather than any inclination to shrink from coercion, is the reason for their decision not to meddle. I would like to see Joyce feel, recognise, evaluate, and reject the qualms against birth control pills instilled by her horrid upbringing — that’s mostly because I don’t like the way that Dorothy and Becky have been treating her since she deconverted, but also because I would like to see Joyce enjoy a bit of progress against the moral and existential voids.

        8. Z

          This isn’t a black and white issue. It’s something thats been debated since time immemorial.

          Is it ethical to allow Joyce to suffer and fail out of college because she refuses to admit she needs glasses? She won’t be able to drive, will struggle to navigate the world, and it was exacerbating her PTSD.

        9. Agemegos

          I have been reflecting on this a bit, and I have come to the conclusion that the governing issue is one of consent. There are grey areas, but Joyce is not unconscious, suffering from a condition that impairs her capacity to give consent, nor incompetent by reason of youth or mental defect. She has the right to refuse even procedures that would save her life, and for any reason, or without giving any reason.

          A doctor who performs a medical procedure knowing that the patient refuses consent to it is absolutely wrong to do so, even if the procedure will save the patient’s life. And a trustee holding medical power-of-attorney for a patient who is e.g. unconscious is similarly wrong to give consent on behalf of the patient when they know that the patient would, if conscious and properly informed, refuse consent.

          That Dorothy and Becky lack the expertise of the doctor and the authority of the attorney does not make their overbearing Joyce’s freedom of consent any better.

        10. BBCC

          I agree with you in principle, but Joyce has also said sometimes she needs her friends to make her do things that may be necessary but are unpleasant. In front of Dorothy. That was the case with Sarah throwing her dead toenail out of her sock and also with Dorothy taking her to the appointment to get glasses, so I can’t fault Dorothy for thinking this might be a similar situation.

        11. Needfuldoer

          The difference is, Jennifer is offering to bring her to see a doctor, not booking the appointment for her like Dorothy did.

  4. alongcameaspider

    Joyce is handling conversation well so far, dunno what Becky and Dorothy were worried about

    Anyway I’m gonna go back to listening to the new My Chemical Romance song on repeat which is something I still can’t believe I’m able to say

    1. Katerly

      Its so good!

      1. alongcameaspider

        I hope this is a precursor to a new album and not just a one off thing

        It gives me the same vibe as their first album and I missed the rough around the edges style it had

    2. Archieve

      Seems like the more friction grows between Joyce and Becky, the closer her and Dorothy become.

      1. C.T. Phipps

        I mean Dorothy wasn’t helping here either.

    3. Proxiehunter

      They were afraid of her not handling that well. The fact that she did handle it that well doesn’t mean that they didn’t have quite valid reasons to worry that she wouldn’t based on knowledge of her past behaviors.

      1. Clif

        She also hasn’t handled it well yet. So far, so good, but early days yet.

      2. Ed Callahan

        It’s kinda the premise of the strip.

    4. Needfuldoer

      Either she’s more receptive since Billiefer isn’t trampling on her agency like Becky and Dorothy did with the glasses, or she doesn’t feel up to putting up a fight.

      1. Z

        She has a different dynamic with Jennifer.

        Partly that I think she doesn’t have much of any dynamic with her for months, plus she doesn’t expect any judgement/expectations from her.

        Jennifer has shown genuine concern for Joyce’s wellbeing. Buuuuut she’s also kind of been a dumpster fire mess so has no leg to stand on for superiority.

        Whereas both Becky and Dorothy, though well intended, are pretty judgemental. Dorothy has spent their entire relationship expressing her disapproval of Joyce’s lifestyle choices and Becky isn’t handling Joyce’s new life choices well. (Not that Joyce is handling Becky’s current life choices well)

        I imagine she’d have a kneejerk reaction to put up more of a fight to either Becky or Dorothy. With Jennifer there’s just no real need.

        1. Andy

          I think her current level of energy also plays into it. If she’s feeling fine, her knee-jerk reaction might win out and it might take a few strips for Dorothy to talk her down to “Okay but you don’t believe that stuff anymore so why not?” In this case, she can’t summon up the outrage and therefore skips past it.

        2. Azhrei Vep

          Yeah, this is my read on it. If she were feeling better, I think Joyce would have a stronger reaction. But her current condition has left her fresh out of both fucks and a willingness to share them.

    5. Lily

      tbf she probably would’ve reacted a diff way if becky had been the one to suggest she get checked out compared to billie who’d she was sorta admiring at the start

  5. jackiedu46k

    This is going better than i expected but also the same as i expected at the same time.

  6. True Survivor

    Those are some very wavy trees in the background. Is that just a comic book background time saving technique thing or is there something very strange going on at that college in real life?

    1. Slartibeast Button, BIA

      Joyce’s pain is so intense it is warping reality, sort like heat shimmers.

      1. Laura

        Migraine, maybe.

    2. Lori

      That is often what trees look like? So yes to comic book technique, but also yes to being a fairly accurate drawing of certain kinds of trees!

      1. Agemegos

        Yeah. Small trees because they are small. Close together because they are planted close together. Bare of leaves because it is winter. Branching low because they grew in the open. Forking at about sixty degrees because some species fork at about sixty degrees. Gentle curves in the branches and trunks because some species have gentle curves in their branches and trunks.I can look out my window at some some syzygiums that would look pretty much like that except that they are covered in leaves

    3. King Daniel

      Strong winds?

    4. Bicycle Bill

      The group was coming out of the Math Department building (Rawles Hall), which is adjacent to Dunn’s Woods.  And if you Google “Dunn’s Woods” and check out some of the images that come up, you will see that some of the trees, etc. DO show noticeable ‘curviness’.  Add to that the fact that we are looking at ‘layers’ of trees to create the illusion of depth…

      and we see that once again Willis’ drawings are painstakingly accurate to the real world.

      1. Z

        Thanks for checking that. I was confused by the objection because, like, it’s perfectly normal for trees to be wavy? Some species more than others, yeah, but that background is totally believable.

  7. Nono

    Joyce: too in pain for a freak out.

  8. Florence

    Feeling sad looking at last panel Joyce

    1. The Wellerman

      You have good reason to be, but fear not!

      This is to be expected of Joyce, considering what she’s been through. Breaking Chains of the Sunday School is a constant battle, and she’s a real trooper. ✌️?

      1. Sombrero

        Yeah, her self-awareness is a very healthy sign. She will have scars forever, but the wounds are gradually healing.

  9. StClair

    looks like she’s also trying not to pass out.

  10. Yotomoe

    https://i.imgur.com/ixY9QiT.png (NSFW)
    Alright lets get this train rolling again. I’ll admit this one is a bit messy, I just need to get back into the swing of things.
    Story so far…
    https://imgur.com/a/9Ob1cy3 (NSFW)

    1. The Wellerman

      I’ll say, very smooth way to get back into the action bruh! ?

      ? Condoms…. my ADHDemon brain is racing through so many hilarious possibilities already, but I can’t wait to see what our Porn Lord in training can do! ?

    2. Sirksome

      Hrmm. I feel like Billie would have condoms and honestly Walky should have some. I’m assuming he’s fucked at least two girls by now, dude needs to do his due dillegence here. Should be interesting to see how this goes.

      1. Agemegos

        Yeah, he really ought to have condoms. Guys have to take responsibility for birth control and disease prevention, to the whole extent that they are able.

        1. Proxiehunter

          He was between girlfriends at the time this started and it’s been a matter of hours at most that this has been going on. At his age I would have had a just in case condom or two if I were dating someone but if I’d used them up or they’d expired or been damaged and I didn’t currently have someone I might use one with I wouldn’t have had a condom laying around just in case some woman barged into my room and said “Let’s have sex right now!” I wasn’t the kind of person that sort of thing happened to, and up til now I bet Walky didn’t think he was either.

          But that is what happened with him in this comic. So if he used up the last of them with Amber I don’t think it’s a big deal that he doesn’t have any on hand for this situation.

        2. Agemegos

          Fair enough. I really ought to have a complete first-aid kit in my car, but just at the moment the one I have is lacking a crepe bandage because I used the one I had.

          I must not wait until I am at an accident scene to buy another crepe bandage, though.

          If you’re looking for adventure of a new and different kind
          And you come across a Girl Scout who is similarly inclined
          Don’t be flustered, don’t be nervous, don’t be scared.
          Be prepared!

      2. Otl1973

        Are condoms that expected these days? When I was in college (as I noted elsewhere, many decades ago), it seemed perhaps not universal but very common for sexually active women to be on birth control. This isn’t to say condoms weren’t used, but they certainly weren’t ubiquitous or even (at least in my experience) that common. Maybe a lower concern about STDs back then was a factor?

        1. Sirksome

          Maybe they’re not expected but they should be for any sexually active adult male. It’s literally a dick move to put all the responsibility on the woman.

        2. Andy

          Probably not going to be a popular opinion, but I think that really depends on the situation. I definitely agree that men should have condoms available if they’re having casual sex, but things do change in a relationship. Men’s options for birth control boil down to using a condom, pulling out, vasectomy, and abstinence. Of those, the only realistic ones are condom and vasectomy, and only condoms are truly reversible (yes, vasectomies can be reversed in theory, but there’s no guarantee). If you’re in a committed relationship and neither person likes using a condom, which does happen sometimes, it’s not automatically a dick move for the woman to take on that responsibility since she actually has options. I wish there was a viable male birth control pill or non-permanent solution other than condoms, but that’s simply not the case at the moment.

        3. Sirksome

          Obviously a committed relationship has it’s own exceptions and conditions. You trust your partner and had conversations and communication with them about safe sex practices. Some people even have latex allergies and literally can’t use most condoms. But I wasn’t really speaking in a specific case by case basis. Especially in context of the fan comic, this appears to be a casual encounter. Walky has some sexual experience by this point and I assume he’d enjoy more, so I think it would be expected of him to have some condoms by now. He can’t expect every girl he meets in college to take care of that for him. In canon world what if an opportunity to hook up with Lucy presents itself? It would start to feel like a double standard.

        4. Andy

          Even speaking generally there’s enough caveats and exemptions that I’m not comfortable with a blanket statement like that. Both people should absolutely be responsible for their own birth control, but we also need to remember that as long as both partners are consenting to have sex, it’s not our place to decide the morality of how they do it.

          As for Walky, he’s passive enough in relationships that I’m not sure he expects to need condoms ever. This can be a bad thing, if he carries passiveness over towards weaponized incompetence (e.g., “you should’ve known I don’t expect to have sex so you should’ve bought condoms if you wanted it”) but in this case I don’t think there’s any real hope on his part that he would need condoms in the near future and therefore he has no reason to have them.

        5. Sirksome

          I don’t think it’s a morality issue. People have the right to have sex however they want. It’s like choosing to wear a seatbelt while driving or wearing a mask in a post covid world. You can take the risk if you want, I guess. I’d choose to at least have the options to protect myself unless there are very specific circumstances such as allergies, religious beliefs, preference, pregnancy, ect. Even in those specific situations, having a condom doesn’t mean you have to use it. It’s a little confusing to me why expecting a sexually active male to take control and responsibility of his sexual protection is such a point of contention.

        6. Andy

          Clearly what I read your initial statement to mean and what you apparently meant seem to be to very different things. When you said “[condoms] should be [expected] for any sexually active adult male. It’s literally a dick move to put all the responsibility on the woman,” my read of that was “If you are sexually active and choosing not to use condoms you are forcing your partner to take all responsibility and being morally wrong.” To me, this is a blanket statement of morality, because what is a dick move if not something that is in some way immoral? In addition, the statement that sexually active men should always have condoms to hand is flawed because there’s various scenarios where that’s not going to be the case. I don’t see it as a point of contention that a sexually active man should take control and responsibility for his sexual protection. I do see it as a point of contention that condoms are the only or even the best way he can do so.

          And I’ll admit, my experience with this debate is mostly in seeing very similar arguments on AITA. In that case, there’s often the argument that a man who doesn’t want to be a father absolutely must have a vasectomy and it’s a moral failing for him to do anything less and still have sex if he doesn’t want children. I happen to find that line of thought abhorrent. There’s a huge difference between saying that men need to take control of and responsibility for their sexual health and to say that there’s only one correct way to do so. It strikes me as the same line of thinking as saying that women should remain abstinent if they don’t want children, though it is obviously miles less problematic because it doesn’t carry centuries of misogyny with it.

          I think the best way to put this is that all sexually active people need to be responsible for their own sexual health and respectful of their partner’s desires for their sexual health, regardless of the methods used to keep themselves healthy. If that means Walky only buys condoms when he thinks he needs them, I don’t think that’s a failing on his part. If that means Joe keeps condoms around even when he doesn’t think he’ll need them, just in case, that’s not a failing on his part either. The most important thing is that all people involved in the sex are in informed agreement on what constitutes adequate protection.

        7. Agemegos

          It seems to me that reliance on the Pill alone was widespread when I started at uni in 1982, and that condoms became much more usual after the discovery was announced that AIDS is caused by a virus that can be sexually transmitted (which was in 1983). In 1986 there was some controversy on campuses over whether a single man who routinely carried condoms on dates and to parties was being considerate or sexually presumptuous. By the time the [Australian] government broadcast the infamous [a href=”https://youtu.be/mSmaWEK_rD4″]”Brim Reaper’ PSA[/a] in 1987 it was, as far as I could could tell, preaching to the converted.

        8. Agemegos

          Bleargh.

          Grim Reaper PSA

        9. Leorale

          By the time I went to college, in 2003-2007, condoms were very expected, both for pregnancy and to avoid STIs. I suspect men were most expected to supply condoms, and women were most expected to demand condoms, but really anyone could. They were free or nearly-free from the RAs and the student health center.
          (Granted this was Oberlin, which is kind of its own universe sometimes, but I don’t think that particular expectation was all that ahead of its time.)

        10. Nicoleandmaggie

          As RAs we had a really hard time keeping condoms in stock in the hall bathroom and eventually had to move a supply to our entry way.

        11. cbwroses

          As an RA from 2000 to 03, none of us at my dorm (and possibly at my school) were ever tasked with nor expected to have condoms for other people. So experiences vary.

          I also distinctly remember missing out on sex with a date because it was our first one and I did not bring a condom as I didn’t expect to have sex.
          Despite being ready to have sex with me, and saying that was a good answer, a second date did not occur.

        12. davidbreslin101

          So, not a PSA on the dangers of fedoras….

        13. Victor

          Yeah, back when I was in college decades ago, the conversation generally went something like “Condom?” “I’m on birth control and I’ve been tested, it feels better without.”
          I typically had one handy, but mostly didn’t use them.

    3. Bagge

      an alpha bongo would have had a condome.

  11. RassilonTDavros

    I really like the under-played facial expressions here. Here’s hoping Joyce takes her advice.

    1. ValdVin

      I especially like her weak smile in panel three. It really gets her discomfort across

  12. DailyBrad

    Please take the lifeline, Joyce. Your bits will thank you.

    1. Z

      And by “bits” we mena every cubic inch of your body. Especially if she is dealing with anemia on top of everything else (Becky mentioned needing an iron supplement).

  13. Yotomoe

    I find panel 4 Joyce incredibly endearing.

  14. BBCC

    Oh, Joyce, it’s not gonna be easy.

    I hate that idea, but I’m not surprised Joyce’s sect was one of the ones that believes that.

    1. Slartibeast Button, BIA

      I’m wondering, given her background, how much Joyce actually knows about how her body works. And how much Becky knew a year ago.

      (I’ve often been shocked when I meet women who know less about it than I do, when most of what I know was from an intro level college course. With a side of living with people with endometriosis.)

    2. not someone else

      Yup. I kind of figured Joyce hadn’t considered going to the doctor because that idea had been shot down years ago. Now that she’s been reminded that’s A Thing, hopefully she’ll be able to go.

    3. C.T. Phipps

      I’d been hoping that was her being joking but….nope.

  15. Norah

    Was Jennifer aware before that Joyce is now an atheist?

    1. Archieve

      Don’t think so, it’s just the people she regularly interacts with and Liz.

    2. Sirksome

      If not that makes this even more impressive. She went in with even less knowlledge than Joyce’s “besties” after being told Joyce would likely be difficult by said “best” friends. Jennifer really is a boss. An incredibly shallow one but still a boss.

      1. Hoboturtle

        Ya, I was about to say. Did they forget forget Joyce was an atheist? I mean Becky is specifically hiding the fact that she had sex specifically because Joyce told her she forget about the church teachings and just have sex and Becky doesn’t want to hear that she told her so.

        This probably exist outside of Joyce’s religion and has more to do with her general personality. Joyce seems to hate things that make her uncomfortable but I think she would find her menstrual cycle way more uncomfortable then going to a doctor at this point.

        1. BBCC

          They only found out three days ago. They haven’t recalibrated their thinking yet.

      2. Z

        Turning atheist doesn’t mean removing a lifetime of sexual shame and indoctrination. Or ptsd after nearly being raped.

        It is not unlikely Joyce would have a freakout about the idea of being on birth control.

        But yeah just going to the doctor like… There’s loads of options. Birth control isn’t the only one.

  16. jmsr7

    Joyce was a Southern Baptist right?

    Is this the first time Willis has referred to Southern Baptists as a cult?

    I mean, they meet some of the criteria, but not as many as, say, the JWs: https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/

    1. alongcameaspider

      Joyce’s family identity as fundamentalists

      Those tend to be far more culty then more mainstream sects

      1. Lucky Winner

        Back when I was Christian, in the 1980s, there were charismatic and non-charismatic churches. There were charismatic Baptist, Episcopalian, Catholic churches etc. The difference between charismatic and non-charismatic churches was bigger than between the various denominations (non-charismatic). Charismatic was way more culty. Charismatic had acoustic guitars during services, speaking in tongues, dressing in normal clothes, etc. Non-charismatic all had suits and ties and choirs in robes and pipe organs and readings and hymns. One Baptist camp was somewhere in between, or maybe off to the side.

        1. Andy

          I’d have defined those as contemporary and traditional, or maybe low church and high church. I was raised high church Lutheran, and I still prefer that method of worship even as I despise much of the teaching.

    2. John Smith

      A religion is just a cult with societal approval.

      1. The Wellerman

        If a language is just a dialect with an army and a navy, then I suspect the difference between cults and religion to be very much the same.

        1. Agemegos

          A cult is a religion that you can get away with using a pejorative term for.

        2. Nova

          There are languages which lack an army and a navy – Sincerely, indigenous people everywhere.

        3. Roborat

          So you are saying there were no indigenous groups with the word for army or navy in their language?

      2. Jamie

        So do you consider Wiccans a cult or a religion?

        1. The Wellerman

          Eh, not the kind of question you should be asking, really.

          The difference between a “cult” and a “religion”, much like many other blasted social customs and denigrating “traditions”, are implements that the bourgeois loosen and tighten at their whim to maintain their bloated power, their means of production.

        2. Agemegos

          Marxism is a cult.

        3. The Wellerman

          Very ironic how totalitarian political cults that claimed inspiration from Marx continued the vicious revolution / social pyramid cycle that Marx tried to avert in the first place.

          Just to be fair, Russia never had anything that really strayed from brutal absolutism for all its history, and the other two great “communist” world superpowers would have never been born without Soviets’ financial and ideological support to begin with.

        4. Lexi

          Wicca is not centrally organized, so it’s really hard to make sweeping generalizations over it. Some circles probably are a bit cult-ish. Some are closer to a book club. Lots of Wiccans are probably independent from any groups.

          Obviously, any three word sentence is going to lack perfect nuance to cover every situation.

      3. Slartibeast Button, BIA

        One I’ve heard is that a cult is something you join, while a religion is something you are raised in. Which has some problems as a definition.

        A personal criteria I use is that the difference is that a cult is not satisfied with being part of your life, or even the most important part of your life, it insists on being the *only* thing in your life.

        1. John Smith

          The only slightly-less flip version of the cult/religion definition I’ve heard is that cults that outlive their founder are religions. You lose some of the “I am the way! Life is meaningless without me!” aspects and gain a few “ageless wisdom now, rewards later.” Sort of the natural evolution of the meme, it mutates into a version that can survive without the charismatic leader.

        2. The Wellerman

          Very much so. Some of the most successful cults on earth didn’t even have charismatic leaders anyway, and one could argue that they were successful because they didn’t even have to depend on their leaders at all.

          Be it a religious organization or political party, there are a wide variety of factors that determine a cult’s success. But one factor in particular that I think is worth exploring is how well they meet (or appear to meet) the needs of vulnerable people.

      4. Rowan

        Hard disagree. Re-read that list of criteria, plenty of religions don’t meet any of them. I’m a Quaker, so I have a bias, but all my experiences with Quakers have been of them encouraging individual thought, there is very little by way of set doctrine (we’re technically supposed to be Christian, but lots of modern day Quakers (including me) don’t consider themselves Christian at all), and no pressure to believe any particular thing

        1. Laura

          Depends which branch of Quakerism. Rich Mullins was raised as an Evangelical Friend (Quaker).

        2. Laura

          Rich Mullins did strike his own path, though. So he’s not the best example. All I mean is that the largest group of Quakers are Evangelical Christians.

        3. Laura

          Oh, OK, no, then. Sorry — I hadn’t read the original post you were replying to. No, I do agree with you that Evangelical Friends, while conformist and hard-core in their Christian beliefs, likely would not meet most of those criteria in the BITE model for cults. While they can be judgmental and strict, I would never consider them violent.

        4. Dana

          I wonder what sort of Quaker Nixon was raised as. He also struck his own path.

        5. Seregiel

          Well Quaker Oats. They did aquire fisher price and financed Willy Wonka, so I’m going to say Nixon’s version of Quakerism is based on. brand madness vs religion.

      5. Sombrero

        Disagree. You can get out of religion in ways that you cannot get out of a cult. Cults are the black holes of religion.

    3. Jamie

      Joyce was not Southern Baptist. Joyce was non-denominational.

    4. Agemegos

      I don’t think so, or at least not immediately before her atheist epiphany. I think her denomination identified as Nondenominational Evangelical Christian.

    5. Dr. Smart

      I think it’s less that Willis is calling them a cult, so much as Joyce is. Remember that she is still in that “new atheist phase” where she is likely to discredit or dismiss her own former religion more brutally because she is simultaneously starting to recognize the trauma it put on her, and trying to distance her identity from it.

      1. thejeff

        And you know because her church (and her mom) backed the guy who kidnapped her and her friends. She’s got some of that “new atheist phase” going on when it comes to religion in general, but her church in particular has earned it.
        I think they’re probably not a cult in the strict technical sense, but close enough for general usage.

    6. Z

      Pulling a gun on your child and reciting “I would die for you” crossed over into cult territory.

      Also I would say that any church that uses “pray the gay away” brainwashing and torture on teenagers crosses over into cult territory. Please do your research before objecting – the shit queer teens have been subjected to is horrifying.

    7. Laura

      Reading this checklist made me sad. The MOVE organization checks every one (or almost every one) of those boxes. Makes me so sad.
      I think about some other groups, like the Elan school and those other state-funded and court-ordered “residential youth facilities” that grew out of the Synanon cult — and the kids who died from that kind of militaristic “reform school” abuse — it all just feels so sad.

      1. Laura

        And then places like the Rotenberg Center are still torturing children with electroshocks and other physical punishment, and using taxpayer money to do it. And have kept doing it for decades. Revolting.
        https://www.timesunion.com/state/article/Aversion-therapy-17165699.php
        https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/08/school-shock/

    8. C.T. Phipps

      No. Southern Baptists would probably be LIBERAL to Joyce, if not heretical.

      And my wife grew up in a cult like Joyce.

  17. anonymsly

    Oh my gosh! It looks like Joyce is capable of rational thought! She says something and then realizes ‘oh wait I DON’T actually think that, okay, recalibrate’ and recalibrates.

    1. Agemegos

      Yes! She has insight into her condition! It’s almost as though she were a sane, mentally competent, adult.

      1. VP

        She so adorable. They are all trying so hard to grow up. Except Walky.

        1. crow

          Walky’s fine. You guys are always shitting on Walky when he’s the chillest person in this strip.

    2. Nono

      She was doing that during biology with Joe.

      1. anonymsly

        Yup, and that’s how Joe proved himself a better friend to her than basically anyone else. Except now Jennifer, maybe.

  18. Archieve

    Aside from religion itself it’s probably hard for her to take that first step of going to the doctor by herself because it’s still stuck in her mind that she needs a parental figure to make those plans and decisions for her.

    1. Agemegos

      It was with the eye exam. Let’s hope that she makes easier going of this. So far it looks as though she was just too much distracted by pain to think of changing a habit.

    2. Cerusee

      Joyce vs the concept of God has nothing on Joyce vs the concept of authority figures more broadly.

      I think she’s gotten a pretty harsh lesson in trusting parents, but the impulse to trust in non-parental authority figures is just as hard to shake.

      1. Agemegos

        Good point. Trust in and rely upon. Joyce seems to be figuring out that she can’t trust people in authority and therefore has to do for herself the things that they presumed to do for her, over the whole range from making routine appointments with a dentist to judging right from wrong.

        This development is not welcome to Dorothy or Becky.

      2. Spencer

        Joyce vs the concept of God has nothing on Joyce vs the concept of authority figures

        I’m pretty sure these are the same thing.

  19. VP

    Oh Joyce, you are adorable. Billie may actually get you better then your close friends right now because she is standing there, listening. Trying to be Head Cheerleader! Problem Solver! Mature Adult! Hopefully hearing you as you are today and not as whatever fantasy she has of you.

    1. anonymsly

      I’d think that Jennifer, out of all the cast, understands the desire to reinvent yourself, grow/change, put the past behind you, etc. Hopefully she also respects it in people other than herself.

  20. Johan

    Hell yeah, Joyce. Work through your shit!

    1. Agemegos

      Hear! Hear!

      I have remarked before that what Joyce could really do with is to work through her shit together with a group of young people who are working through similar shit. Building yourself a new world-view and ethical position is best done in open-minded discussion with other people who are doing the same thing from different starting-places of background and experience. That is, in undergrad bull sessions with fellow seekers. University campuses are often splendid places to do that sort of thing, but the friends that Joyce made on the basis of proximity are not really the right people to do it with.

      1. Cerusee

        She really could. It’s painful at times to watch this *fictional character* going through this kind of personal upheaval with, in my opinion, an entirely inadequate support system. Her family is useless, and most of her friends are judgmental or hostile to Joyce’s evolution, even as it’s putting her on a path towards a worldview that’s theoretically more in line with their own. (Dorothy, you don’t seem all that committed to “let a person learn” when the learning process entails any kind of discomfort not experienced solely by Joyce herself.)

        Some kinds of support or environments for exploration are done more productively by people not emotionally invested in you as a friend. I suppose that’s one of the reasons why therapists exist. (Joyce absolutely needs one of those, too. She is incredibly traumatized from so many sources.)

  21. Otl1973

    I think Willis is writing Joyce with more self-awareness than seems reasonable for a college freshman. Given some fairly deep thought, maybe. But that doesn’t seem like the sort of thing that she’d just be able to riff. At least that would have been the case when I was a college freshman (many decades ago) – maybe freshmen today are more aware

    1. Laura

      She was probably having that debate in her head for a while, thinking about what “old Joyce” would have said.

    2. Agemegos

      I think you are probably right. One the other hand Willis and the readers have been watching a little bird sharpen its beak on this diamond for more than eleven years, and the lack of apparent progress is frustrating.

      Art cannot be slave to realism.

    3. Slarstorm

      Joyce is coming to terms with disillusionment from her ideology, going through a period of self-reflection isn’t a huge stretch. Joyce has a lot of emotional intelligence, I think.

    4. Spencer

      I can confirm that when you spend that much time with your darkest thoughts and most enforced routines, you get aware of them even if they’re still helplessly dragging yourself along.

      1. StClair

        Yyyyup.

    5. Lone Duck

      I also have to assume that writing a autobiographical comic can give you perspective that you might otherwise not have.

    6. Seregiel

      There’s that joke that goes something along the lines of a therapist tells the patient that they seem like they have great self awareness and the patient says that’s the problem. That’s me. That was my college experience over a decade ago. Having too much self awareness when almost everyone around me had none and that gulf making things even more difficult. It pairs up with the notion that people who had to grow up too fast often have parts super under developed, so you’re a 35 year old soul trapped in an 18 year old body that doesn’t understand key concepts of regulation because everything has been so tightly held and there is zero middle ground.

      1. Spencer

        I got this line a lot these past few months as I started to clean myself up.

        It was actually a pretty positive development for me, though. I got really good at recognizing and compartmentalizing my intrusive thoughts.

        I don’t know what it means to not be self-aware (unless I’m writing a story, in which case self-awareness is the devil) about my own thoughts. I hear ’em all the time! I might as well consider them, right?

        1. Sombrero

          Maybe the original comment was talking not of self-awareness about one’s own thoughts, but of self-awareness about where one is with respect to the outside world.

  22. carcinoGeneticist

    Is……is that actually the fundie explanation of menstruation?

    That’s a thing real people actually believe?

    1. Tarnagh

      Yes. “Womanly complaints” and pain in childbirth are our punishment for tempting Adam and getting us kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

      1. Tarnagh

        To clarify, that IS what they believe. Not what I believe. I escaped fundamentalism decades ago.

      2. Bicycle Bill

        It ain’t just the fundies.  I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and that was the teachings of the time (pre-Vatican Council 1960s) for us as well.

    2. Robbie

      Yup. Some say, including my mom, that it is ungodly to reject the pain of periods and childbirth because God wants you to experience it.
      …of course my mom was guilty of fairly traumatic medical neglect which my dad happily enabled

    3. TheStranger

      Genesis 3:16, yeah. God’s curse on women for Eve’s disobedience was supposed to be “the results of getting dick will be pain and suffering in pregnancy and childbirth but you won’t be able to help yourself- you’re gonna want that dick.”

      Which is a weird punishment but later Christians doubled down by going “well, you know, ancient people probably only vaguely understood reproduction; God probably ALSO meant debilitating periods to be part of that and if you use man-made stuff to avoid His punishment, that’s a sin.”

      1. Z

        If you actually look at it, the word “pain” had no business being translated that way. It was more like “labor” – like an honest days work. Men had to work the fields, women had to work the family. “Pain” wasn’t part of it until translators got their bias all over it

      2. epitome of incomprehensibility

        Yeah, the way I heard it was that it referred specifically to childbirth, but the extension to period pain doesn’t surprise me.

        A lot of myths have the aim of explaining observable phenomena (how the porcupine got its quils, etc.) but it’s sad how this one has been weaponized in Joyce’s church (and others) to say women should just accept suffering because they deserve it. Blegh.

  23. Cerusee

    but at age 18 the home-schooled, only very recently ex-Christian fundamentalist is an aDULT WOMAN with access to the internet and that means none of Joyce’s friends have any obligation to offer her support or guidance in seeking the kind of medical care she wasn’t brought up to believe that she had any right to even if she was allowed to know it existed at all~

    1. Clif

      You do a lot of stuff for your friends that you’re not obligated to do, because that’s part of what being friends means.

      1. Agemegos

        Also, lots of us do things for strangers that we have no obligation to do. For example, look at the surf life saving association or volunteer fire brigades.

        Somehow we manage to rescue people from difficulties in the surf and put out fires in their houses without supposing that we have to, and have the authority to, do it against their will.

        1. Z

          So if you saw someone drowning you would take the time to stop and get full informed consent before saving them? And if they aren’t able to coherently form a sentence you’d let them die because hey, don’t want to do it against their will ..

        2. Agemegos

          No, obviously not.

          There are grey areas around urgency, absence, unconsciousness, and incapacity. But Joyce isn’t in any of them.

  24. Regina phalange

    Holy crap I (pretty much) called this in the comments yesterday. This may be my proudest moment.

  25. Bagge

    Sometimes when you talk to Joyce you don’t need to contribute anything, because all sides of the argument is already present.

  26. Robbie

    Joyce has been an adult able to access healthcare on her own for less than a year, and that’s assuming she has access to the necessary insurance information, which my parents deliberately withheld from me. Her dad would probably give it if asked though.

    But anyways she’s probably had this pain for over half a decade and been told it’s fine and can’t or shouldn’t be helped.

    I definitely do not wonder why she isn’t seeking help for it yet. it’s obviously never really occured to her. This may even be only the first or second bad period since she shed the beliefs holding her back. I do think adults should manage their own health but the fact that she needs a gentle push is not at all surprising.

    (I’m also not surprised Dorothy and Becky don’t feel up to this, they don’t know how much of a fight it might be and it’s not their job, and they’re probably tired, but I’m glad Jennifer is saying something.)

    1. Robbie

      I feel like people who weren’t raised this way don’t understand that girls are brainwashed to support their own oppression…. It takes a lot of work to undo that.

      1. Nova

        THIS. This RIGHT HERE.

        You’re taught that the abuse and oppression are not only “right” they are a sign of “God’s Love” or “God’s Punishment” and that attempting to circumvent it in either direction is an attempt to avoid “God’s Plan” for your life.

        Anything bad that happens to you? Well you should pray about that. God wouldn’t give you a burden so big you couldn’t carry it. God takes care of the birds of the field, why don’t you trust him to take care of you?

        And all that guilt-tripping comes alongside a kind of competitive worship culture where you’re taught that the way to raise yourself up is to self-righteously belittle (though they phrase it as call-out-and-help) your fellow worshippers. For women, that means slut-shaming other women, ignoring their cries for help, and reassuring yourself that their pain is NOT your pain. They’re being PUNISHED for being BAD which will absolutely never happen to YOU.

        Cults are fucking hard to escape. I’m deeply bored of people with no empathy for that, and they pop up all over this comments section now and again.

    2. Rayndel

      I dealt with debilitating periods until I was 22 or 23. They were just the status quo. I was frustrated that work was upset with me missing a day of work every month (or more, I went through a pretty big sick phase there for a couple of years).

      I didn’t really consider that I -should- go get help for it. It was just normal. Growing up without health insurance probably didn’t do that thought process any favors either.

      1. Lexi

        Yep, 36 and have just been dealing with it. I did talk to a doctor. Three times, now. First time when I was teen, was told it’s normal and take Advil. Second time about a year ago. Was given an ultrasound to check for ovarian cysts, then told there was nothing and this was all normal.

        Third time has been an extended two month process in which I ended up in ER, twice, checking that my appendix wasn’t exploding because it was so bad, and following up with my doctor twice more, trying to get an OBY/GN appointment for an IUD when they are apparently drastically overbooked due to COVID.

        So yeah, I totally see Joyce’s side of this. And Becky’s. Even Dorothy’s. Even if Joyce does go to a doctor, that doesn’t mean she’s actually going to get help. And I don’t blame my friends for not pushing me to a doctor for my periods (as much as I do appreciate the friend who dragged my ass to the ER because in her own painful period experiences, what I was describing may be nothing or may be a sign of urgent need)

  27. Darkoneko

    wow I am unreasonably mad at panel 2 holy shit

    1. Nova

      Your anger is not unreasonable.

  28. Bicycle Bill

    Crampy – the female dwarf that didn’t make the cut in “Snow White”.

    1. The Wellerman

      *massive eye roll*

  29. Leorale

    As a Torah teacher, it always made me so frustrated that Christians got angry at Eve and blamed her for everything. Like, Eve found out the fruit of knowledge wasn’t deadly, so she wanted to share some with her sweetie. Why are we mad at Eve for SHARING

    1. The Wellerman

      Is anyone even gonna mention the Serpent? He was only telling the truth! Why did he get punished?

    2. Clif

      I believe that the point of the story was that eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil *was* deadly. It might take a few score years max, but deadly all the same.

      1. Agemegos

        I don’t think so, because they weren’t going to live forever unless they also ate of the Tree of Life. (Genesis 3:22)

    3. Leorale

      My Jewish-kid reading of the story was that God, knowing full well what was happening, gave the humans a chance to explain themselves. Due to their newfound embarrassment, Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the snake, because both the humans were being full of shit and not admitting any responsibility for their own choices. Oops, that’s humans for ya!

      I don’t understand why Christians decided that this story really was all Eve’s fault, like Adam claimed. Why not the snake’s fault, like Eve claimed? Why not God’s fault, for making the tree so easily accessible?

      Disobeying the rules and then lying about it and denying your agency, that’s all common naughty human behavior, and it makes sense to have a big cultural story about it.
      It’s just, normally, sharing is good.

      1. The Wellerman

        Unknown to Adam and Eve, God’s message about the fruit was not a warning about the deadly nature of it but a threat, by which he meant that he would guarantee their eventual death by kicking them out of Eden should they eat it.

        Seeing that an all-knowing creator would know everything about how their creation worked, God would have known exactly how Adam and Eve would misinterpret his warning. Had he stated plainly to them that he would be the one to guarantee their eventual death if they ate the fruit, Adam and Eve would have understood it clearly and there would have been no problem.

        Adam and Eve where given conflicting information which they had no capacity to evaluate by their very design. They were punished for failing a test that they were designed to fail.

    4. Deviant

      Here’s whats got me all confused with the whole genesis story. Not sure if theres a difference in the Torah.

      Ok so first of all. God is omnipresent and omniscient, right?
      He knows everything that has happened, is happening and will happen.
      He is also present at all times in all places.
      So there is no way he didnt know that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit of knowledge, in fact he always knew.

      Also, Adam and Eve had free will but without the knowledge of good and evil. That means that they didn’t know what was right and wrong.
      So when God told them not to eat the fruit, they weren’t really capable of understanding what “forbidden” meant.

      Also, at that time, Adam and Eve were immortal. Two immortal beings without the concept of good and evil just running around the garden for eternity. Even without the snake odds are that they would eventually eat that fruit anyway.

      So unless anything I said was wrong, it was all according to plan that Adam and Eve would eat that fruit.

      1. Yotomoe

        There’s a difference between a knowledge of Good and Evil and like…following rules though. I think the idea is kinda like a parent going “don’t touch that. I don’t need to explain why, just listen to me”. And when they disobeyed him they got punished. I dunno I don’t think knowledge of good and evil is necessary for that.

        1. BBCC

          That requires an understanding disobedience is wrong though.

        2. JBento

          I mean, if your point is that the main goal of the Bible is to instill unquestioning subservience to self-appointed authority, you’re not wrong.

      2. Deathjavu

        I credit reading the bible with driving me away from religion (5th grade or so). None of it makes sense, and it’s (unsurprisingly, given the age & translations) not very well written. Always telling instead of showing and oodles of repetition.

  30. Rabisch

    And now, let’s go to see that doctor!!! Can’t wait for Joyce to say that♡.

    1. anonymsly

      I hope she does, frankly. I hope she skips out on lunch with Becky and Dorothy, possibly also misses poli-sci, doesn’t text them, and goes to a clinic or the campus health center or whatever. I hope Jennifer goes with her as emotional (or physical) support.

      And then they have a nice late lunch and catch up. Or Joyce goes back to her dorm for a nice lie-down.

  31. june gloom

    All else aside, I really like Joyce’s outfit today.

  32. ADLegend21

    oh look Becky and Dorothy were right about Joyce’s reaction. Big shock eh “Jennifer”?

    1. anonymsly

      There’s no kablooey at all and no freakout at the concept. Joyce said a thing on autopilot, realized it was a dumb thing she doesn’t even believe, then backpedaled it and explained. This is a completely reasonable and rational reaction, and Becky and Dorothy predicted explosive hysterics from a stupid fragile housepet. They called nothing.

    2. JBento

      Lol, they were most definitely not, unless yesterday’s strip is mardkely different for you than it is for me

    3. alongcameaspider

      In what way does this strip prove them right?

      They predicted a major freak out, not a reflexive fallback on religious thinking followed by backtracking said religious thinking

      Joyce may freak out when we get into the birth control stuff but she hasn’t yet

  33. Gash

    Watch billie walk back to dorothy and becky and be like “you’re goddamn right!”

  34. Lone Duck

    Christians aren’t a monolithic group. Historically, European Christians blamed Eve, because historic Europeans were misogynistic as all get out. But there are plenty of Christians with a more nuanced view. Unfortunately, Joyce’s upbring was not nuanced at all.
    Also, I was wrong. Joyce is ‘fighting the red knight’. Maybe Jennifer can be helpful.

  35. brute

    the people getting mad at dorothy and becky for not fixing this have apparently never had a friend or family member who was too stubborn or difficult to ever consider new options or healthier lifestyles to the point that everyone close to them gave up on trying to help because it would only lead to arguments and anger and it shows.

    also they’re like 18 and can’t just fix everyone’s problems for them, jeez.

    1. Spencer

      They never brought it up because they believe Joyce to be too stupid and naive to make this decision.

      Which is already bad, but they’re willing to overstep that to the degree of attempting to dictate what she’s allowed to think about her own upbringing in her death cult, so it’s just outright absurdity at this point.

    2. Sam

      Or that had to pick their battles because knowing everything COULD be a long drawn out process means any help offered = commitment to also see it through even if it is a slog to do. And sometimes you are not up to doing the entire slog even if you do care or want to help because it is mentally tiring.

      Not knowing how they will definitely react to a specific topic ‘for certain’ doesn’t change that it was how they’ve reacted to everything else and that it usually takes more time and effort than you are necessarily able to give every time. And Dorothy was literally expressing concern two strips ago, so she clearly wanted to do something but hadn’t figured out how or what because Joyce is notoriously difficult to convince to do stuff.

      And because Joyce also may not want help and expressed this last time about glasses. They have even less right to push her on this than that and it could easily be 10x more difficult than that because it is more embarrassing.

  36. Spencer

    Wow, how could Joyce be so cruel?

    Doesn’t she know that Becky will be sad if she calls it a cult??? Seething with rage right now at the sheer disrespect, I hope Becky succeeds at indoctrinating her back to teach her some manners.

    I know she’s suffered debilitating menstrual pain for years while adhering to this fairy tale, among a handful of other umimportant things, but I’m a Good Christian and I don’t deserve to suffer such rude language.

    1. Agemegos

      It is the Devil working through her.

      Which is prone to happen because she is an atheist.

    2. Adept

      What’s wrong with calling a cult what it is?

      1. Agemegos

        It disrespects people’s religion. “Cult” is a pejorative term, taken as implying a lack of legitimacy.

        And disrespecting other people’s religion is not acceptable these days.

        1. C.T. Phipps

          I mean Becky wouldn’t disagree. She doesn’t believe anything but 10% of what her church did.

          No hell, no homosexuality is bad, science, and probably that Jesus hates fundamentalism.

        2. Adept

          Meh. I disrespect the very concept of taking religion seriously in 2022. There was an excuse when we had little idea on how the world works. These days it’s just tragic make believe.

          And I say this as somebody who knows a lot about religions, and enjoys the historical / mythological aspects of it. I genuinely don’t care for anybody genuinely believing in supernatural entities that demand obedience like demented family patriarchs.

    3. Daibhid C

      Just so I’m clear, we’re talking about the church that spent Becky’s entire life telling her she was a sinner, and convinced her father to point a shotgun at her for her own good, right? I think she’d be fine with calling them a cult.

      1. reinek

        i think spencer is still mad that everyone was mad at joyce using being a atheist as a excuse to be a a-hole because she thinks she thinks shes smarter than everyone else now that she doesn’t believe in god (as apposed to previously where she thought she was smarter than everyone else for believing in god)

        1. Spencer

          This is such a fundamental misreading of what transpired, maybe most prominently that it didn’t start until Becky hunted her down because she’s a clingy dipshit and lasted one entire day after her friends forced her to apologize for saying mean things about growing up believing in the thing that led to your mom bailing out the guy who almost shot you in the face, but I know it’s super important that the victims of genocidal death cults be super contrite to the oppressor.

          I say God is stinky because his fanclub kills people like me all the time, they overturn Roe v. Wade, truly both sides are the same.

        2. JBento

          Ok, but I bet you don’t know that people are telling the SCOTUS judges that they’re unhappy with the ruling, because that’s the REAL problem and I don’t believe that you’d endorse such abysmal behaviour towards the people who think a woman’s true worth is as an incubator, actually.

        3. Daibhid C

          Joyce and Becky are BOTH victims of the genocidal death cult. That’s my point. Both have left it in different ways. Both have decided the other has left it in the wrong way. Both, let me be clear here, both are being assholes about it. And neither of them are a fraction as bad as the genocidal death cult, which makes me wish Hell existed so they could rot in it.

          ((I know, I know, being a member of a church that has no problem with lesbianism or Wade vs Roe or anything like that means that Becky hasn’t left the death cult because they’re all the same, just like all Muslims are basically the same religion as suicide bombers.)

        4. JBento

          Only one of them has harassed the other to join her, though, and it wasn’t Joyce.

        5. Spencer

          Also she’s trying to forcibly indoctrinate Joyce back, but like Joyce prior with slutshaming Roz and dating a gay dude to make him straight and needing to check her picture book to square that it was okay to not send Becky back to the loving embrace of conversion therapy; it’s just a silly whoopsie when the Good Christian Girl does it.

        6. Spencer

          That’s such an outrageously stupid and revolting comparison that’s also been used by your genocidal death cult to oppress every single person with dark enough skin that they hadn’t already gotten around to on the grounds that an amount of people died that was the same on a daily basis during covid, but to clear this up; it ain’t American Muslims who made it abundantly clear that certain lives innately matter less and were doing so before that was made clear by signing it into fucking law.

        7. noram

          i love how at no point they said they were Christian but since they didn’t agree with you, you stapled that onto them (“that’s also been used by your genocidal death cult”) so you can make yourself feel better about being angry at them

        8. Spencer

          Much to my distress, people outside of genocidal death cults are also totally fine caping for them on the grounds of quiet civility.

        9. Hoboturtle

          Actually strangely enough I think Joyce was being pretty reasonable until after Becky and Dorothy overheard her. She was ranting to someone who she felt shared the same crap she went through.

          And while I do think she should’ve apologize just because it hurt someone she cared about even if she didn’t mean for them to hear it, that doesn’t mean anything Joyce said or did was unreasonable. Saying “fuck religion” after everything made sense and she was being pretty reasonable by complaining about it a little bit and then dropping it once Becky seemed irritated by it. She didn’t like religion anymore but still liked Becky who liked religion.

          But then Becky overheard her. She and Dorothy got angry at her and THEN Joyce started acting like the worse atheist you know. It really felt like she only started acting unreasonably to retroactively justify the anger instead of her acting that way and them being angry as a response.

        10. Spencer

          I’ve been banging this drum lately but, yes actually; Joyce only became self-assured in her belief that she had now seen the light or lack thereof after her fight with Becky had ended and Sarah and Dorothy made it clear that what actually mattered is that Joyce needs to apologize to Becky because Becky hunted her down without her will, knowledge or consent and is now sad at what she overheard.

          This lasts a day. By the time she goes to Galasso’s to reconcile with Becky on the grounds that Dorothy threatened her that Becky “won’t be able to put up with this any longer,” Joyce had to do all the emotional labour again while Becky told her she had been lying to her their whole lives and then ended it with “look I know you think you have the right to choose how you think, but I need my buffer.”

          She is entirely vulnerable and questioning with Joe (who, like the perfect husband good friend he is, runs entirely with dialogue for how to make her feel comfortable and to validate her feelings) and then fuggin’ Walky of all people just tells her to unwind because she’s lost on a Sunday morning, and now we have this little sequence where Jennifer does the unthinkable and approaches Joyce as if she’s a functional adult.

          (For the record, you’re correct that Joyce is “the worst atheist you know.” This is because the worst atheist you could know is annoying on the internet and typically about something that probably had an effect on them, and can’t do things like have enough cultural power to devalue the lives of queer children)

      2. Agemegos

        It still wasn’t a shotgun. Why are so many people intent on retconning it to a shotgun?

        1. Daibhid C

          Wasn’t it? I’m British, I’ve never had any reason to be able to identify guns. It was some sort of largeish projectile weapon that I thought was a shotgun. My apologies for the error.

        2. JBento

          This feels like an extreme splitting of hairs, though? Is the type of gun really a relevant factor in the situation?

        3. anonymsly

          I don’t know, when I tell the story of how I was hit by a car thousands of miles from home as a teenager, a near-immediate reaction from a significant number of people is ‘what kind of car was it?’ People are weird creatures who like minutia.

        4. JBento

          My first reaction is, apparently, “were you alright?”, but maybe tthat’s because I don’t care about cars?

        5. anonymsly

          I’m all right, yes! I had a buttload of scrapes on one side (I looked significantly like Two-Face), a broken arm, and a minor concussion. Due to that last, I have no personal memories of the day at all, so no lasting mental/emotional trauma. I was covered by like five insurances, so no lasting financial stuff either. Thank you for asking!

        6. Agemegos

          If it doesn’t matter what kind of gun it was, why not just say “gun”?

          Willis went to some pains to depict Toedad’s gun accurately, as a Ruger No. 1 varmint rifle. Whether you noticed or did not notice the difference that that made to the characterisation of Toedad, it seems disrespectful of their diligence as an artist to retcon it as a completely different type of firearm.

          Everyone’s happy about calling Ross’s car a car; people don’t refer to it as a limousine and defend that with a claim that the difference doesn’t matter. What is it about shotguns that so many people over so many years insistently refer to Toedad’s rifle as a shotgun?

        7. davidbreslin101

          I’m guessing, it’s through association with phrases such as “shotgun wedding.” See overbearing and potentially murderous father / brother with a long firearm, think “shotgun”.

        8. Agemegos

          Oh, that’s plausible. I hadn’t thought of that.

    4. anonymsly

      LOL right?

      Joyce needs new friends.

    5. C.T. Phipps

      If you think Becky wouldn’t encourage her to go to a doctor, I think you don’t know her very well.

      1. alongcameaspider

        I mean she’s literally making excuses for not encouraging her to see a doctor just one comic ago

        1. C.T. Phipps

          No, she’s terrified of trying to argue for her.

          Because by your logic, Dorothy doesn’t want her to see a doctor.

        2. alongcameaspider

          Theyre throwing in the towel without even making an effort,

      2. JBento

        Becky was literally in the camp of “pfft, Joyce doesn’t need no stupid eye doctor, Dorothy is just railroading her” not that long ago.

        1. Needfuldoer

          I bet that was partly her keeping up her unrequited rival schtick. She knee-jerk overreacted initially, then after Dorothy explained her perspective Becky flipped a switch and was 100% supportive.

          https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/02-look-straight-ahead/skeptical/

    6. Hoboturtle

      Ya I noticed the hypocrisy. I mean Becky and Dorthory are doing the same thing they got mad at Joyce for doing but worse. At least Joyce was just making fun of a life style she and her friend once shared instead of the friend directly.

      1. JBento

        Hey, remember when Becky was going “lol, Dina is gonna be so mad when she dies and finds out god is real, lol her”.

        1. Hoboturtle

          Ya, honestly I can see why Becky would get mad. Not saying she’s in the right (far from it) but that’s in character for her.

          What I’m confused about is why Dorothy is being so harsh about this.

        2. Agemegos

          Could it be because Joyce is rebelling against her management?

  37. Dr. T

    Wow, even though she no longer means it it’s still revolting that anyone espouses such a toxic mindset.

    1. C.T. Phipps

      Its doubly tragic that Christianity actually became more popular than Mithraism because Christianity allowed women to work as equals in the early Church. That and Christianity had a policy against infanticide and that slaves could be members too.

  38. Juanoku

    Yep, every religion, by definition, is a cult
    Which would explain a lot actually

    1. C.T. Phipps

      Actually, a cult means that information is hidden from the public at large and available only to select members of the leadership or group. It has a literal religious meaning.

      1. Agemegos

        That’s one sense. But it’s not the original sense and it isn’t the only sense that is current.

        Originally, a cult was the part of the observance of a religion that was special to a particular place, time, group of people, or religious object. For example, the cult of Theseus was an annual observation at a particular tomb that was performed by Athenians as a part of the wider Greek religion, the cult of Heracles was a part of Greek religious observance that was more widespread, the Imperial cult was a set of observances towards the genius of the Emperor that was part of Roman religion before the conversion to Christianity, and the cult of the Mysteries at Eleusis was an annual festival at a particulare religious complex in Attica that involved conveying a secret teaching to select initiates. That’s not the most usual sense in common parlance any more, but it is still current in history and religious studies.

        The real meaning of “cult” in this strip is the meaning that it conveys from Joyce to Jennifer.

        1. Cerusee

          Yeah to both the educational portion of this comment, and the getting-to-the-relevant-bit where Joyce’s terminology here is not accidental and does mean something in this specific interpersonal exchange, even it is just to convey some of Joyce’s feelings about Christianity right now to Jennifer, who has definitely not been here for most of that particular journey.

          “Cult” is a word with multiple meanings. Some of them are VERY applicable to Joyce’s extremist home-schooled-to-limit-the-influence-of-the-secular-and-ungodly fundamentalist Christian upbringing. She has every right in the world to use the word “cult” to describe the environment she’s emerging from and she is not being hyperbolic or inaccurate by doing so. Joyce was raised in a Christian cult. (So was Becky.)

    2. Madock345

      The cult designation in religious studies requires a few bullet points. Beliefs that are considered bizarre or radical by the local culture, a centralized living figure of charismatic authority who can’t be questioned, discouraging the membership from interacting from non-cult members, exerting control over member’s finances and living situations.

      Having studied some real, active cults, no mainstream religion comes close to operating in the same way.

      Joyce’s individual church is probably a cult, or has cult-like tendencies at the least, I couldn’t say for sure at this point because so far all of their beliefs have just been very fundamentalist and literalist takes on standard doctrine, nothing really weird yet, and no central, charismatic authority figure that I know of, it seems to be run pretty democratically by the adults in the congregation.

      1. not someone else

        In her case the central, charismatic authority figure was probably her Mom: not a cult in the technical definition but a cult as-enforced. It definitely counts as religious abuse, even if their moving around and keeping it in the family means her upbringing “only” rhymes with cult indoctrination in several important ways.

  39. epitome of incomprehensibility

    Besides what everyone else has said, I noticed how Joyce is going on and on while Jennifer’s just standing there, trying to process it all. Sometimes the funniest reactions are non-reactions (but I’m curious what tomorrow’s strip will have her say).

    (Oh yes, and good job on the colouring/shading/background. It all goes really well together.)

    1. Agemegos

      Listening is an important part of helping people to deal with their problems. And even of dealing with their problems for them, if it comes to that.

  40. Beau Kirin Maysey

    ough oofie ohno

  41. Mr.Morningstar

    cramps so bad she can’t even lie about how she still has to work through the indoctrination

  42. Callid13

    Wait, her gender? Shouldn’t it be her sex?

    1. alongcameaspider

      Joyce likely still hasn’t unlearned the idea that they’re connected, she mentioned she’d do her own research when she met Booster but it’s unclear if she’s done that yet

      1. The Wellerman

        When she finally learns about it more in the future, as a genderfluid slick myself can hardly wait!!! ??️‍?

  43. Throwatron

    Really depressed that the inevitable outcome of this storyline is probably “Joyce needs a hysterectomy and can never have children, but now she doesn’t even have God’s Plan to fall back upon in her immense anguish.” I’d just like something good to happen to her eventually, you know?

    1. C.T. Phipps

      I choose to believe this version will end up a highly successfully pornographic cartoonist who meets their life mate.

      Who suspiciously resembles Dorothy.

    2. autogatos

      Hysterectomy is definitely not the only inevitable outcome of uterus/ovary issues, birth control can help them a ton, speaking as someone who used to get bad bad ovarian cysts and other horrible period problems that made me feel a lot like Joyce here.

      Unless you meant, because it’s DoA and our poor characters can’t have nice things, in which case, yeah quite possibly.

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