well at least she’s still amicable enough to ask for help with something less stressful (hopefully, i know art can be tough even if one enjoys it as a hobby) at the end
tho i’d still say ‘spending (more) time’ together, don’t think it’s what joyce had in mind versus more ‘fun’ stuff (though other than a deadline idk if dorothy is really missing that much but i imagine that time in your young adulthood/early 20s can feel like everything’s going by fast/busy) though wonder if she will drop the bombshell about her going all the way to yale (i mean america’s big but you could still catch a flight on the weekend or so versus yale being all the way in say, Korea)
I’m thinking maybe Dorothy is missing something Yale-related by being there today. That’s why she says, “That’s not fair for me to say to you.”
anon
well, it seems kinda like a big priority to let becky take over this, and put yale first but at least she can reschedule with yale but hopefully they wouldn’t be too strict/think she’s a flake (though i just always saw those kinda ‘ivy league’s schools as an elitist rich white person school, even if people do get in on scholarships, i would not really care if someone graduated from a ‘good’ school but a lot of american education and healthcare seems like a scam anyways lol)
When you think you are doing the right thing, any other option doesn’t really ‘feel’ like an acceptable choice to make, and you can’t really turn ‘off’ caring, you can only learn self-control and to accept you can’t ‘forcibly’ help people against their will when they are not like, a young child.
Agreed. Dorothy bothers me a lot for this. It’s the whole martyr mentality. Ooh I do so much for you and you don’t show any gratitude. But Joyce didn’t ask her to do this (I do see though she does ask for other things and it would be shitty to be ungrateful for those). But this idea that I’m going to do something that you’re telling me that you don’t want me to do and then be mad at you when you aren’t grateful for it is not a healthy mentality.
I mean, Dorothy outright admits and says in explicit terms that it’s unfair behavior. Feels like that’s not being acknowledged. Recognizing and stopping don’t matter, all that matters is the initial, unfinished start to rudeness.
Sirksome
Honestly I don’t really care about Joyce’s feelings on this. I know it’s a bad stereotype for women but she is going through a rather horrible period so she’s gonna be pretty grouchy. My concern is that Dorothy doesn’t seem to enjoy mothering Joyce all the time. She’s showing frustration and she doesn’t have to put herself through that. She has her own agency here. Taking a step back could be good for her too.
Either studying, a class, or work to do. I don’t think this particular event is directly related to her Yale status. However, it might still be a background thought.
While Willis may make it something important and timely that is Yale related, I don’t see how that is realistic. She was already accepted, so it’s not like they would want to interview her – if they did, it would be before, not after. And she wouldn’t be going until fall, which is 6 months from now in-universe, so I can’t think of anything important that would be needed at this point. She might need to accept the offer, but that’s a letter (or more likely these days, an email).
Maybe it’s Accepted Students Day (an event similar to orientation but before students actually accept admission)? Or a campus tour since she probably didn’t go on one before applying?
thejeff
Can’t really be anything like that – she would have had to fly out. Plan in advance. Not something skipped on a moment’s notice.
She’s missing that one tooth way back in the back, in the left-bottom section, the one that does all the rearmost chewing. She had to have it taken out when she was 13 because some other kid knocked her over with their bike and the handlebar damaged the tooth too much to keep. But only that specific tooth.
interesting liz’s name being mentioned, maybe she’ll show back up and joyce will bond /their/ friendship a bit more though not sure if she’d do anything irrational/be ‘influenced’ by liz to make some bad choices or so
Joyce used her words to articulate her exact need in this moment in time! I’m proud of her. I cannot fault her for lashing out the way she’s been doing this morning, but this is a better and more effective way to get what she needs. (Well. From Dorothy, anyway.)
I think it’s telling that Dorothy is having trouble reconciling “Joyce is always begging me to spend time with her” with “Joyce is explicitly asking for space to deal with an emotionally fraught issue in her own way”. Joyce likes Dorothy enormously and enjoys socializing with her for the sake of socializing with her. Dorothy trying to “fix” Joyce is probably the aspect of their friendship Joyce appreciates the *least*, although I will grant that she doesn’t put up much resistance to it for the most part, for a bunch of complicated reasons that include Dorothy representing pretty much everything about the “normal” secular world that Joyce knows she’s ignorant about, which makes her a kind of knowledge authority figure to Joyce, and we know how Joyce feels about authority figures!
But I think to Dorothy, being Supportive Helper Mom Who Solves Your Problems is synonymous with friendship, and she literally does not get that Joyce would want to spend time with her for other reasons, like relaxing and doing fun things together—that Joyce values her company for things besides what Dorothy can do to Improve Joyce’s Life.
Your last paragraph hit my thoughts dead on! To Dorothy, this is quality hanging out. She’s with Joyce. They are in the same area, even talking! And even better, they’re solving an issue while doing so. Two birds, one stone, etc, etc. We’ve seen this during the dorm party arc when Dorothy was writing papers even while hanging out at a party.
I hope those two can realize that they want vastly different things when it comes to friendship and can move forward in a healthier way. Joyce has been solidly manic lately (with reasons, but still) and Dorothy has been pouring a lot of herself into it.
Vanessa
Let’s face it, Joyce doesn’t actually like Dorothy. Dorothy is a hard-working, conscious nerd who will drop anything for her friends. But Joyce wants to bullshit with a chronic liar, get high, and play video games instead. And try to bang Joe just like Liz too, haha. She doesn’t want to have intellectual conversations about the history and social impacts of atheism with Dorothy, she wants to curse god and rail against her abusive cult with Liz. I’m sad for Dorothy but she needs to stay far away from Joyce and avoid all contact. She can’t stop caring and the only way to stop mothering Joyce is to ghost her. Joyce is telling her that’s what she needs. That is going to be hard if Joyce continues to be magnetically attracted to Dorothy. Just so sad. This is the rudest, most painful friend break up.
Cerusee
Oh I thought this was a joke post at first. Well. I’ll be way over there, reading the actual comic strip.
Cerusee
Unless that was an actual joke post, in which case I apologize. I’m sorry, this comments section’s tendency to Littlefinger everything (“‘I ask myself, what is the worst possible reason someone could have for doing what they’re doing,’ and then I go BUGNUT WILD in creating elaborate logic chains based on that assumption and forget to reality-check myself”) has eroded my ability to distinguish actual jokes from some of the weird things people say here sometimes.
Cerusee
Oops. Should have scrolled down and read the other stuff. Welp!
“yes i totally wanna go through tedious and self conscious trials while having menstrual pain over having a fun lunch together”
though at least joyce is on a college campus rather than being completely isolated from people, even if she does need space, it’s good that she’s within distance to reach out to people
This is very important as a distinction. Dorothy taking Joyce’s interest in spending social/recreational time with her equating to “any time is good time” is very indicative of their obvious differing perspectives and social styles. It’s made all the worse when the majority of the time they spend together is devoted to things that make Joyce uncomfortable or have stakes instead of just a normal lunch or board game night or something. I would have a hard time maintaining a friendship if the only time my friend wanted to spend time together was in that context. That said, Dorothy is a very driven individual, and doesn’t seem to really HAVE downtime in her eyes, just opportunities to better/further her life and career. Her idea of socializing is taking advantage of those opportunities together. It’s neither person’s fault that there’s a misalignment, though it’s both of their faults they’re not addressing that and just letting it fester.
I think Joyce wants to interact with dorothy as a equal but at the same time has become too comfortable relying on her taking charge of things. Dorothy for her part doesn’t quite understand the difference between being a leader to her friends and being a mom and its causing strain on their friendship because she has set herself up as the person who takes care of joyce to an unhealthy degree..
Would people be happier with Dorothy if she were a fair weather friend who just ignored when Joyce needs help? Even Billie thought that was shitty, she’s the one who started the whole “get Joyce the medication she needs” ordeal. Remember Dorothy didn’t want to interfere before Billie came and yelled at her for being a bad friend. Maybe Dorothy should have just called Billie up to make her get and take the medication.
Dorothy is looking tired, all the stress from classes and now handling Joyce’s sudden attitude is wearing her out. I understand why they’re both upset to some degree, but I can’t figure out why they’re having such a problem over taking birtch control meds.
that said birch isn’t really a shrub, it’s a tree but ok =)
good (atrocious) pun ?
i mean, it also kind of looks Kyrik had written, b*tch control meds, which, i don’t know what joke to make about that, but, assume i’m being really funny? please
I think Dorothy might view things in terms of solvable problems- that you can organize your way out of pretty much everything. Joyce’s life is, apparently, going to be one thing after another, basically forever, and while you’re totally right that Dorothy is exhausted trying to help, Joyce might be thinking that she isn’t being seen by people she knows as a person with volition but a project. And that’s its own kind of exhausting. On the other hand, I don’t see Joyce taking much interest in her friends’ issues on anything like the level they do hers, so there’s more than one way to look at it.
Yeah, even when Dorothy was talking yesterday Joyce completely ignored what she was saying- basically pointing out Joyce was being borderline insulting- and kept steamrollering on with her nutty talk.
Vanessa
Joyce is an absolute mess. if she wants to pretend like Liz that she is chill so her friends learn that she isn’t a fundie anymore, she needs to get it together. I thought Joyce freaking out and having fundie PTSD was adorable but then lashing out at your best friend, who has been putting up with your freak-outs and listening to you process your de-conditioning, is just really gross. Just so sad for Dorothy. She’s going to spend the rest of the semester locked in a study room at the library with her phone in Focus Mode.
Although maybe Joyce saying out loud that Liz is right means it’s time to transfer to a new school where she can pretend to be normal, haha, good luck with that. Maybe transfer to a new dorm like Billie and pretend to be a totally different person and snub all your old friends.
Taffy
How do people live with mindsets this fucking bleak?
Cerusee
“Just stop having problems, I don’t get what’s so hard about that”
288 thoughts on “Crowded”
Ana Chronistic
I DON’T NEED HELP
…except right now
Rainhat
…repeat.
Yet_One_More_Idiot
I’m starting to think they actually are in a romantic relationship without realising it, and that Joyce is the needy one.
Don’t know if cute or just borderline annoyingly-clingy…
newlland(Henryvolt)
Fuck if this was going to be the result than I haft to say maybe Sarah’s approach was the better option.
BBCC
Yeah, this wasn’t a fun convo but at least it’s all in the open now?
Yaaaaay
anon
well at least she’s still amicable enough to ask for help with something less stressful (hopefully, i know art can be tough even if one enjoys it as a hobby) at the end
anon
tho i’d still say ‘spending (more) time’ together, don’t think it’s what joyce had in mind versus more ‘fun’ stuff (though other than a deadline idk if dorothy is really missing that much but i imagine that time in your young adulthood/early 20s can feel like everything’s going by fast/busy) though wonder if she will drop the bombshell about her going all the way to yale (i mean america’s big but you could still catch a flight on the weekend or so versus yale being all the way in say, Korea)
Laura
I’m thinking maybe Dorothy is missing something Yale-related by being there today. That’s why she says, “That’s not fair for me to say to you.”
anon
well, it seems kinda like a big priority to let becky take over this, and put yale first but at least she can reschedule with yale but hopefully they wouldn’t be too strict/think she’s a flake (though i just always saw those kinda ‘ivy league’s schools as an elitist rich white person school, even if people do get in on scholarships, i would not really care if someone graduated from a ‘good’ school but a lot of american education and healthcare seems like a scam anyways lol)
Sirksome
Not to bash Dorothy but she does possess her own agency. She doesn’t have to be so invested she chooses to be.
anon
it is a people-pleasing flaw after all (though as future president i’d think she’d prolly have to make tough/unpopular decisions)
Sam
When you think you are doing the right thing, any other option doesn’t really ‘feel’ like an acceptable choice to make, and you can’t really turn ‘off’ caring, you can only learn self-control and to accept you can’t ‘forcibly’ help people against their will when they are not like, a young child.
Eromer
Agreed. Dorothy bothers me a lot for this. It’s the whole martyr mentality. Ooh I do so much for you and you don’t show any gratitude. But Joyce didn’t ask her to do this (I do see though she does ask for other things and it would be shitty to be ungrateful for those). But this idea that I’m going to do something that you’re telling me that you don’t want me to do and then be mad at you when you aren’t grateful for it is not a healthy mentality.
Taffy
I mean, Dorothy outright admits and says in explicit terms that it’s unfair behavior. Feels like that’s not being acknowledged. Recognizing and stopping don’t matter, all that matters is the initial, unfinished start to rudeness.
Sirksome
Honestly I don’t really care about Joyce’s feelings on this. I know it’s a bad stereotype for women but she is going through a rather horrible period so she’s gonna be pretty grouchy. My concern is that Dorothy doesn’t seem to enjoy mothering Joyce all the time. She’s showing frustration and she doesn’t have to put herself through that. She has her own agency here. Taking a step back could be good for her too.
Marvelman
What is Dorothy missing? Do we know?
RassilonTDavros
I’m going to say it’s probably something related to Yale.
DailyBrad
Studying in general, possibly, she’s been spending a lot of time on Joyce lately.
Marvelman
Yeah, I remembered her acceptance letter. I thought that was for next year?
System_Anomaly
There’s 0 chance this is just studying from the way she phrased it. Also betting Yale… which says a lot.
System_Anomaly
(meant as a reply to OP)
Kyrik Michalowski
Either studying, a class, or work to do. I don’t think this particular event is directly related to her Yale status. However, it might still be a background thought.
Rainhat
Gonna bet Yale.
Otl1973
While Willis may make it something important and timely that is Yale related, I don’t see how that is realistic. She was already accepted, so it’s not like they would want to interview her – if they did, it would be before, not after. And she wouldn’t be going until fall, which is 6 months from now in-universe, so I can’t think of anything important that would be needed at this point. She might need to accept the offer, but that’s a letter (or more likely these days, an email).
bleepbloop
Maybe it’s Accepted Students Day (an event similar to orientation but before students actually accept admission)? Or a campus tour since she probably didn’t go on one before applying?
thejeff
Can’t really be anything like that – she would have had to fly out. Plan in advance. Not something skipped on a moment’s notice.
Taffy
She’s missing that one tooth way back in the back, in the left-bottom section, the one that does all the rearmost chewing. She had to have it taken out when she was 13 because some other kid knocked her over with their bike and the handlebar damaged the tooth too much to keep. But only that specific tooth.
you asked
Roborat
Dealing with Joyce has completely destroyed her schedule for the last two days, now she has to redo the entire monthly schedule.
jpnr
reasonable parting, friendship can still be salvaged I guess
anon
interesting liz’s name being mentioned, maybe she’ll show back up and joyce will bond /their/ friendship a bit more though not sure if she’d do anything irrational/be ‘influenced’ by liz to make some bad choices or so
Clif
You are aware of the name of comic your reading?
Clif
* you’re
milu
I.N.C.S.O.A.
Taffy
Google is not being helpful at all. Is it “I never call someone Arnold”?
milu
It’s Not Called Smarting Of Age =P
Bryy
Normally, this would barely even register as a friendship ending conversation.
But it’s Anxiety Joyce. So who knows.
Cerusee
Joyce used her words to articulate her exact need in this moment in time! I’m proud of her. I cannot fault her for lashing out the way she’s been doing this morning, but this is a better and more effective way to get what she needs. (Well. From Dorothy, anyway.)
I think it’s telling that Dorothy is having trouble reconciling “Joyce is always begging me to spend time with her” with “Joyce is explicitly asking for space to deal with an emotionally fraught issue in her own way”. Joyce likes Dorothy enormously and enjoys socializing with her for the sake of socializing with her. Dorothy trying to “fix” Joyce is probably the aspect of their friendship Joyce appreciates the *least*, although I will grant that she doesn’t put up much resistance to it for the most part, for a bunch of complicated reasons that include Dorothy representing pretty much everything about the “normal” secular world that Joyce knows she’s ignorant about, which makes her a kind of knowledge authority figure to Joyce, and we know how Joyce feels about authority figures!
But I think to Dorothy, being Supportive Helper Mom Who Solves Your Problems is synonymous with friendship, and she literally does not get that Joyce would want to spend time with her for other reasons, like relaxing and doing fun things together—that Joyce values her company for things besides what Dorothy can do to Improve Joyce’s Life.
Katerly
Your last paragraph hit my thoughts dead on! To Dorothy, this is quality hanging out. She’s with Joyce. They are in the same area, even talking! And even better, they’re solving an issue while doing so. Two birds, one stone, etc, etc. We’ve seen this during the dorm party arc when Dorothy was writing papers even while hanging out at a party.
I hope those two can realize that they want vastly different things when it comes to friendship and can move forward in a healthier way. Joyce has been solidly manic lately (with reasons, but still) and Dorothy has been pouring a lot of herself into it.
Vanessa
Let’s face it, Joyce doesn’t actually like Dorothy. Dorothy is a hard-working, conscious nerd who will drop anything for her friends. But Joyce wants to bullshit with a chronic liar, get high, and play video games instead. And try to bang Joe just like Liz too, haha. She doesn’t want to have intellectual conversations about the history and social impacts of atheism with Dorothy, she wants to curse god and rail against her abusive cult with Liz. I’m sad for Dorothy but she needs to stay far away from Joyce and avoid all contact. She can’t stop caring and the only way to stop mothering Joyce is to ghost her. Joyce is telling her that’s what she needs. That is going to be hard if Joyce continues to be magnetically attracted to Dorothy. Just so sad. This is the rudest, most painful friend break up.
Cerusee
Oh I thought this was a joke post at first. Well. I’ll be way over there, reading the actual comic strip.
Cerusee
Unless that was an actual joke post, in which case I apologize. I’m sorry, this comments section’s tendency to Littlefinger everything (“‘I ask myself, what is the worst possible reason someone could have for doing what they’re doing,’ and then I go BUGNUT WILD in creating elaborate logic chains based on that assumption and forget to reality-check myself”) has eroded my ability to distinguish actual jokes from some of the weird things people say here sometimes.
Cerusee
Oops. Should have scrolled down and read the other stuff. Welp!
v.gay.person
All of this, 100%
Liliet
Mhm! Joyce BEGS Dorothy to hang out with her, but that’s not the same thing as moming her…
alongcameaspider
Dorothy, her begging to spend time with you in the past does not mean that she will always want to spend time with you
Joyce, its helpful to say exactly what you need instead of general griping
The Wellerman
THIS
anon
“yes i totally wanna go through tedious and self conscious trials while having menstrual pain over having a fun lunch together”
though at least joyce is on a college campus rather than being completely isolated from people, even if she does need space, it’s good that she’s within distance to reach out to people
pyrock_mania
This is very important as a distinction. Dorothy taking Joyce’s interest in spending social/recreational time with her equating to “any time is good time” is very indicative of their obvious differing perspectives and social styles. It’s made all the worse when the majority of the time they spend together is devoted to things that make Joyce uncomfortable or have stakes instead of just a normal lunch or board game night or something. I would have a hard time maintaining a friendship if the only time my friend wanted to spend time together was in that context. That said, Dorothy is a very driven individual, and doesn’t seem to really HAVE downtime in her eyes, just opportunities to better/further her life and career. Her idea of socializing is taking advantage of those opportunities together. It’s neither person’s fault that there’s a misalignment, though it’s both of their faults they’re not addressing that and just letting it fester.
Archieve
I think Joyce wants to interact with dorothy as a equal but at the same time has become too comfortable relying on her taking charge of things. Dorothy for her part doesn’t quite understand the difference between being a leader to her friends and being a mom and its causing strain on their friendship because she has set herself up as the person who takes care of joyce to an unhealthy degree..
Needfuldoer
+1 to all of this.
Cerusee
Yep.
Liliet
MHM
Vanessa
Would people be happier with Dorothy if she were a fair weather friend who just ignored when Joyce needs help? Even Billie thought that was shitty, she’s the one who started the whole “get Joyce the medication she needs” ordeal. Remember Dorothy didn’t want to interfere before Billie came and yelled at her for being a bad friend. Maybe Dorothy should have just called Billie up to make her get and take the medication.
Nono
…is it Yale? Did Dorothy miss a talk with Yale for this?
True Survivor
Come on Joyce! Dorothy isn’t your secretary. Though if you play your cards right one day you could be one of hers.
brionl
Secretary of Keeping it Real?
Kyrik Michalowski
Dorothy is looking tired, all the stress from classes and now handling Joyce’s sudden attitude is wearing her out. I understand why they’re both upset to some degree, but I can’t figure out why they’re having such a problem over taking birtch control meds.
Is this really that big of a deal?
True Survivor
I mean if they are taking herbicides….
Get it cause birch control – like the the shrub.
True Survivor
I’m sorry.
Kyrik Michalowski
That was both the funniest and the best palm to forehead moment I’ve had in a long time, so thank you.
Kyrik Michalowski
I only now realize that I mispelled “birth,” whoops.
milu
hehe
that said birch isn’t really a shrub, it’s a tree but ok =)
good (atrocious) pun ?
i mean, it also kind of looks Kyrik had written, b*tch control meds, which, i don’t know what joke to make about that, but, assume i’m being really funny? please
Laura
Yes. It really is that big of a deal.
-
Nah, it needn’t be, they (mainly Joyce) are just making a meal of it. Because, y’know, see the title of the strip etc etc
Rainhat
I think Dorothy might view things in terms of solvable problems- that you can organize your way out of pretty much everything. Joyce’s life is, apparently, going to be one thing after another, basically forever, and while you’re totally right that Dorothy is exhausted trying to help, Joyce might be thinking that she isn’t being seen by people she knows as a person with volition but a project. And that’s its own kind of exhausting. On the other hand, I don’t see Joyce taking much interest in her friends’ issues on anything like the level they do hers, so there’s more than one way to look at it.
-
Yeah, even when Dorothy was talking yesterday Joyce completely ignored what she was saying- basically pointing out Joyce was being borderline insulting- and kept steamrollering on with her nutty talk.
Vanessa
Joyce is an absolute mess. if she wants to pretend like Liz that she is chill so her friends learn that she isn’t a fundie anymore, she needs to get it together. I thought Joyce freaking out and having fundie PTSD was adorable but then lashing out at your best friend, who has been putting up with your freak-outs and listening to you process your de-conditioning, is just really gross. Just so sad for Dorothy. She’s going to spend the rest of the semester locked in a study room at the library with her phone in Focus Mode.
Although maybe Joyce saying out loud that Liz is right means it’s time to transfer to a new school where she can pretend to be normal, haha, good luck with that. Maybe transfer to a new dorm like Billie and pretend to be a totally different person and snub all your old friends.
Taffy
How do people live with mindsets this fucking bleak?
Cerusee
“Just stop having problems, I don’t get what’s so hard about that”
Clif
Pain hurts. Not being in pain and unable to function normally is a big deal.
newlland(Henryvolt)