That said, as noted below, while I like her less now as a person, you have to give it to her for that comedic timing. That exit line is Mike worthy. Bravo.
Oooh, Dorothy being mad too was not something I really expected.
Think she’ll stay and talk Joyce through it? Will anybody? Or will Joyce just compress this down and hate herself more for the single moment she started to unpack her trauma?
All I know is, this is the first time I’ve ever waited refreshing the homepage right at midnight.
Joe is also in three of these panels, doing nothing but looking at everyone. Feels like he has a reason to be there — honestly, yeah, Joe does almost make the most sense to be the one she talks to. Especially given their recent bio homework talk.
Jon F.
Well. Of course he has a reason to be there. It’s his room.
But like, narratively, too.
DailyBrad
Right, plus she’s come to him in the past for a lot of stuff, most recently the Becky’s mom stuff. She did also in the past come to him when her parents were divorcing, so, even if Joe’s not exactly the most comfortable at talking feelings, he does obviously rise to the occasion for her, historically.
Jon F.
Well, here’s hoping he’ll rise to the occasion for her, once again.
And then again, much later on, in a different context. *waggles eyebrows*
elebenty
*waggles eyebrows*
*doesn’t say whose*
albi
Hey, I was looking for those!
Xenocide
I kind of think maybe Joe should be the one to go talk to Becky, and Dorothy stay to talk to Joyce.
Joe knows about Joyce’s deconversion and has more context for what happened, and so is in a better position to explain to Becky that Joyce was angry and venting about her own past beliefs rather than Becky – Dorothy isn’t aware, from what I recall.
Joyce coming clean to Dorothy immediately about what’s been going on is likely to be helpful for their relationship as well, and Dorothy can then provide support whilst also making her disappointment clear to hopefully head off this kind of thing happening again.
Matthew E Davis
But is Dorothy down to talk to Joyce? That matters too.
The only problem with that is that Becky doesn’t like Joe and is likely not in the mood to hear a single word out of his mouth.
Fist_of_Life
From her perspective, Joe could very well have been encouraging it. He didn’t say anything, but they were definitely in his room when it happened.
Jason Rivest
I definitely don’t think Joe is close enough to Becky to be the one to have a talk with her. I don’t know what Dorothy would tell her either, but I could see them growing closer over this.
Dorothy really mastered the disappointed mom vibe. Joyce is mortified, and with good reason.
They are friends, though, and Joyce and Becky are friends. Eventually, they’ll talk it out and forgive. Maybe not right this second. Becky needs some time to cool off, and possibly Dorothy needs some too.
Yeah, I think that Joe is the best person to talk to Joyce right now. Maybe Sarah can help too. They are both more or less atheists as well, the apathetic kind, or perhaps rather they are agnostics. They can guide Joyce to a decent middle where she can respect others’ faith, and even defend others’ faith, even as she doesn’t share it. Just like Dorothy has.
Decidedly Orthogonal
Sarah and Joe being any kind of atheist has nothing to do with their ability to talk to Joyce about having just (accidentally/obliviously) shit all over her friend. Joyce knows that she fucked up *hard*. Honestly, her getting past her own mortification with some self-compassion, will allow her to be a better friend sooner, rather than wasting time raking herself over ghe coals. (n.b. I don’t mean absolution, but she’ll move along faster by owning and forgiving herself for her mistake). Sarah’s had to live with people being angry with her (despite her having good cause), and Joe had the list. They’re both experienced coaches to help Joyce navigate this.
Jason Rivest
I think Sarah’s and Joe’s atheism would be relevant in this situation. Joyce’s atheism is new, and she still doesn’t know how to be as an atheist. The people she would usually talk about these things she didn’t dare. Liz ended up being a very bad role model, but it’s clear Joyce just wanted to test things out, and wasn’t entirely comfortable saying all these mean things, even when she thought nobody was there to hear her say them.
Dorothy is clearly a very good model of how an atheist can be, and I’m sure that’ll be pointed out to her, but also Dorothy was never raised religiously. Sarah and Joe may have been, though not necessarily in as repressive a way as she was. This experience might help them relate to Joyce, understand what she’s going through and help her find a way forward.
Eesh
Or maybe, and hear me out on this, JOYCE should talk to Becky.
I think it’s entirely unfair of Dotty to be “disappointed” in what Joyce was saying about her own feelings on a religion she was heavily indoctrinated into as she tries to shake it off. I think it’s entirely unfair of half the comments section yesterday to get up in arms about Joyce “lying” to Becky or “being mean to christians” because as far as Joyce knew, there wasn’t anyone but herself in the room to be mean to!
Joyce wasn’t required to let anyone in on her mental state until she was ready to, and if Becky hadn’t been hunting her down for daring to have another friend (and Dotty along for the ride to apparently be “disappointed” in her for skipping class) they wouldn’t have been around to hear Joyce ripping her own beliefs apart.
Both Becky and Dorothy need to get over this idea of Who Joyce Is they have in their head and let her grow. Skipping one day of class for a friend who is in town for One Day Only isn’t disappointing, it’s normal. Not telling someone about your changing beliefs because the last time you did they dumpstered your feelings as “just a phase” and childish…is healthy.
Joyce is allowed to change. She’s allowed to grow in ways which aren’t fun for other people. She wasn’t intentionally being hurtful and it’s gross that she’s apparently the only one in their friend group not allowed to move forward without being treated like she’s doing it to be cruel.
Dr. T
To be fair, at first he’s doing the same thing as Dorothy (looking after Becky in concern as she leaves), then switches to do the same thing as Sarah (looking at Joyce in concern). I think he reads the room just fine here in order to help Joyce *possibly* fix this in the future.
Matthew E Davis
Yeah, Joe has a lot more emotional intelligence that he lets on or the comments tend to want to grant him.
Jason
Joe’s problem (or, well, one of) is that he doesn’t WANT emotional intelligence. He actively avoids things getting “real”, almost certainly because of his emotional intelligence. But if someone is refusing to use the intelligence they have they’re still behaving in a way which is unintelligent. When he lets himself use what he has we see someone capable of great caring, understanding and empathy and a desire to be and do better- but it’s wrapped up in his own fears, hesitation and I honestly think a good pinch of self-loathing.
My point is, it’s easy to not expect emotional intelligence from Joe.
I’m not sure that she’s mad, necessarily, but it definitely makes sense.
While she didn’t shy away from the fact that she disagreed with Joyce’s now-former beliefs on a fundamental level, and was often horrified of some of the messages contained within (ex: all the good things we do are God working though us), Dorothy was never dismissive of Joyce’s beliefs, and always treated her first and foremost as a human being instead of something to be mocked. And she was… pretty much the only one who didn’t do that, early on, which was crucial to the development of their friendship. (need to stop myself from writing a wildly-off-topic shipping manifesto.)
Seeing Joyce, of all people, seemingly treating Becky the way everyone else treated Joyce at the beginning of the comic has got to be hard for her to watch, because this is exactly what Dorothy strove so hard to be better than.
Except Joyce had no way of knowing Becky was there to witness Joyce giving voice to the ugly pent up feelings she’s been keeping bottled up. That’s distinct from the mockery Joyce experienced to her face when she first started the previous semester. Joyce’s ire was not targeted towards Becky in this instance.
Jon F.
Try telling that to Becky.
I get it, I do, and I’ve mentioned how I empathize with Joyce both yesterday and today. But Joyce is still responsible for the words she says, even when venting in a public dorm room, even if she never meant for Becky to hear it. I don’t ascribe her much blame or hold it against her, but she’s still responsible for saying it.
Theozilla
Oh Joyce is most certainly responsible for her actions/words. But that doesn’t mean Dorothy being harsh, and essentially rubbing salt in a just opened sound is helpful either. Now Dorothy being somewhat is a perfectly reasonable reaction and in-character for Dorothy, like Joyce’s venting, it’s understandable Dorothy isn’t going to have the perfect response every time either. But I think people commenting that Dorothy was harsh is perfectly fair too, especially since it’s not a condemnation of Dorothy.
Formerly Glenn
I wouldn’t say that she’s being harsh. She’s expressing her feelings of disappointment with her friend, to her friend.
She’s not yelling, she’s not scathing, she’s not browbeating.
People who are friends need to be able to express their feelings with each other can’t call each other on perceived crap.
Theozilla
Eh, it still comes off as harsh to me, considering the context and phrasing. Perhaps if it wasn’t the first thing Dorothy said or she phrased with an “I” statement it wouldn’t come off as harsh to me.
RassilonTDavros
I don’t think Joyce meant to insult Becky– as you said, she had no idea that Becky was there– but I’m pretty sure that both Dorothy and Becky think that she was talking about Becky. And it’s not like an explanation would make it hurt that much less.
Needfuldoer
I think it depends on how much Becky and Dorothy heard. If the door was open this whole time, they might have heard her from down the hall and followed her voice. (Why else would they be looking for them in the guys’ wing?)
Granted, Joyce openly mocking believers in general is only slightly less shitty than Joyce openly mocking Becky specifically for being a believer, but still.
Jason
I don’t think Joyce was mocking believers in general though- although she’s actively painting it that way to avoid what she’s actually doing being so obvious to Liz, which is actively mocking herself. There’s a lot (by my read) of self-loathing for everything she swallowed without ever actually examining it until she hit the first breaking point (Becky coming out to her). My own childhood “teachings” weren’t religious but it was awful and I definitely went through a massive stage of “how could I have been such an idiot, why didn’t I see this” self-loathing that still comes back up sometimes. I’m seeing something I REALLY relate to in Joyce- anger and bitterness and resentment and a massive, completely disproportionate amount of it being directed at herself.
I might be reading it wrong since it does resonate with my personal experiences but that’s my take.
heliska
I’m pretty certain you’re very spot on here. She would never mock Becky, even behind her back. She’s expressing her anger at herself for spending so much of her life living in a way that she now sees as ridiculous. I can’t blame her in any way, honestly ; it’s hard enough for her, she’s got the right to figure herself out and a few mishaps here and there are bound to happen. I love Dorothy, but reacting like she did isn’t great.
TheCerpent
Yeah, I agree with this, too. It felt mostly self-directed, with a healthy dash of “trying to fit in with new friend” energy.
Joyce is pretty desperate for approval; she was previously very vocal about her previous religious beliefs, and it became a large part of the identity people associated with her. Casting aside those beliefs, that identity, is scary. Especially when she is FULLY aware that being open about her burgeoning atheism opens her up to a lot of mockery, which she suspects/fears she will deserve. Joyce has shown a habit of trying to avoid the consequences of her words and deeds – at least initially.
With Liz, she felt like she could come out of that “closet” as it were. And as a number of people do when they’re leaving their “closet,” they may over-express themselves, exaggerate their feelings or expression of their hidden self, like the backswing of a pendulum. It’s like a release of pressure, and, sadly, Liz basically egged it on. Liz still lives in her own closet, of sorts, but she also has probably carved her own exit from it far before now. She probably thinks it’s good Joyce is cutting loose like this, but also probably doesn’t realize how Joyce is struggling to keep the facade up, let alone the fact that there are people Joyce cares about and wants close to her that also don’t know her truth.
TheCerpent
Also, Liz probably doesn’t realize how uncharacteristically Joyce is acting right now. She’s only seen the face Joyce shows her; probably doesn’t know Joyce isn’t like that with her other friends.
GeekRyuu
No, I can understand that. I was raised as a good little Church-going Republican and I occasionally look back on that with deep cringing. I can absolutely see Joyce’s actions as being self-condemning, not directed at anyone else. The timing was just really, REALLY bad for her venting.
It is really shocking how patient Dorothy was with Joyce early on. I agree, it must’ve made seeing Joyce hurt her childhood friend like this even more painful to watch.
Dorothy meant what she said. She’s not mad. She’s disappointed.
Sure, that’s a common misleading statement, but when most people say that kind of thing, they actually mean “frustrated”, because they were attempting something and it isn’t working and the frustration is building into anger.
Dorothy wasn’t trying anything. She just witnessed a scene, and she’s disappointed in Joyce.
I suspect that Dorothy has had an inclination that something was going on with Joyce for a while and I reckon her thought process when she showed up was “so Joyce really is questioning/abandoning her faith after all and instead of coming to talk to me about it she’s talking shit with somebody she’s only ever met online even though she knows her best friend still believes in God.” It seems like she might be feeling a little betrayed but she’s probably mostly mad that Joyce said something so vicious and thoughtless just because she thought Becky wasn’t around
Well, if she put together the plan the moment she realized Joyce was deconverted and closeted… yeah, she probably could have. Timed things for when classes were letting out and people were likely to come back to the dorms and trust that SOMEONE would overhear.
I have no basis for thinking she did, but she could have.
Thag Simmons
Getting Joyce to inadvertently out herself as an atheist? Maybe, it’d require a degree of malice we haven’t really seen from Liz but I guess it’s not impossible.
Getting Becky/Dorothy specifically to hear Joyce calling people like Becky idiots when she thinks nobody can hear? No. That’s maybe something Mike could have done, with significantly more preparation and understanding of the marks than Liz would reasonable have.
milu
so what you’re saying is, Liz is Mike?
Deviant
I don’t think its the fact that Joyce outed herself as an atheist that is the issue. I think its the fact that she did it incredibly disrespectfully by calling people who believe idiots in a very mocking manner. Especially in front of a believing friend who believes her mother is in paradise?
Eesh
She didn’t know she was in front of that friend. That friend hunted her down for hanging out with someone because she’s wildly jealous and way, way too possessive of Joyce.
Joyce wasn’t talking To or About Becky, and Becky has said similarly hurtful things without ever being called out about it.
Joyce is allowed to change, grow, and do it painfully if necessary. She shouldn’t have to consider other people’s feelings at all times while dealing with her own trauma, particularly when that person wouldn’t even have been around if she wasn’t treating Joyce like a chew toy she didn’t want to share.
You’re just covering for the fact that you let slip a hint to Willis having shown you a future strip from twelve years into the future ahead of schedule. We’re on to you!
Clif
That’s right. You can’t fool us.
Needfuldoer
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, you won’t get fooled again.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
milu
oh no, Rassilon is now trying to fool us even more by leading us believe that they have insider info!!! truly an evil 4D-chess mastermind.
oh wait, Rassilon is Mike now??? my god, this explains, um, so little. if we’re being honest
617 thoughts on “Disappointing”
Ana Chronistic
and Liz was never seen again
and not just bc Comic Book Time
ThunderNight
gone, like an angel’s kiss
CrazyJ
Tonight, on a very special episode.
Clif
Hm. The popcorn doesn’t taste nearly as good as I thought it would.
Needfuldoer
She must go. Her planet needs her.
Casi
i just hope she doesn’t get hit by a truck on her way to her
planetcollegesammyred8
I’ve been stuck in a TV Tropes loop for a week now. Screw you.
Sirksome
Meh. I haven’t been that impressed by Liz.
Rose by Any Other Name
I was more impressed earlier.
She did not age well.
Rose by Any Other Name
That said, as noted below, while I like her less now as a person, you have to give it to her for that comedic timing. That exit line is Mike worthy. Bravo.
DudeMyDadOwnsaDealership
“The party’s over and you need help cleaning up this mess I helped make, you say? WHOAH! IS THAT FERRIS BEULLER OVER THERE?!” *runs off*
Decidedly Orthogonal
I was not impressed when Sarah wasn’t impressed. She may be caustic, but damn if she doesn’t seem to be a decent judge of character. Liz /is/ trashy.
Jon F.
Oooh, Dorothy being mad too was not something I really expected.
Think she’ll stay and talk Joyce through it? Will anybody? Or will Joyce just compress this down and hate herself more for the single moment she started to unpack her trauma?
All I know is, this is the first time I’ve ever waited refreshing the homepage right at midnight.
DailyBrad
Depends. Dorothy might go and try to talk to Becky about it.
Joe would probably be down to talk, I’m sure he’s got a few pointers on “so you stuck your foot in your mouth” situations.
Jon F.
Joe is also in three of these panels, doing nothing but looking at everyone. Feels like he has a reason to be there — honestly, yeah, Joe does almost make the most sense to be the one she talks to. Especially given their recent bio homework talk.
Jon F.
Well. Of course he has a reason to be there. It’s his room.
But like, narratively, too.
DailyBrad
Right, plus she’s come to him in the past for a lot of stuff, most recently the Becky’s mom stuff. She did also in the past come to him when her parents were divorcing, so, even if Joe’s not exactly the most comfortable at talking feelings, he does obviously rise to the occasion for her, historically.
Jon F.
Well, here’s hoping he’ll rise to the occasion for her, once again.
And then again, much later on, in a different context. *waggles eyebrows*
elebenty
*waggles eyebrows*
*doesn’t say whose*
albi
Hey, I was looking for those!
Xenocide
I kind of think maybe Joe should be the one to go talk to Becky, and Dorothy stay to talk to Joyce.
Joe knows about Joyce’s deconversion and has more context for what happened, and so is in a better position to explain to Becky that Joyce was angry and venting about her own past beliefs rather than Becky – Dorothy isn’t aware, from what I recall.
Joyce coming clean to Dorothy immediately about what’s been going on is likely to be helpful for their relationship as well, and Dorothy can then provide support whilst also making her disappointment clear to hopefully head off this kind of thing happening again.
Matthew E Davis
But is Dorothy down to talk to Joyce? That matters too.
Vulcanodon
Just as likely she’ll talk down to Joyce
Fay
The only problem with that is that Becky doesn’t like Joe and is likely not in the mood to hear a single word out of his mouth.
Fist_of_Life
From her perspective, Joe could very well have been encouraging it. He didn’t say anything, but they were definitely in his room when it happened.
Jason Rivest
I definitely don’t think Joe is close enough to Becky to be the one to have a talk with her. I don’t know what Dorothy would tell her either, but I could see them growing closer over this.
Dorothy really mastered the disappointed mom vibe. Joyce is mortified, and with good reason.
They are friends, though, and Joyce and Becky are friends. Eventually, they’ll talk it out and forgive. Maybe not right this second. Becky needs some time to cool off, and possibly Dorothy needs some too.
Yeah, I think that Joe is the best person to talk to Joyce right now. Maybe Sarah can help too. They are both more or less atheists as well, the apathetic kind, or perhaps rather they are agnostics. They can guide Joyce to a decent middle where she can respect others’ faith, and even defend others’ faith, even as she doesn’t share it. Just like Dorothy has.
Decidedly Orthogonal
Sarah and Joe being any kind of atheist has nothing to do with their ability to talk to Joyce about having just (accidentally/obliviously) shit all over her friend. Joyce knows that she fucked up *hard*. Honestly, her getting past her own mortification with some self-compassion, will allow her to be a better friend sooner, rather than wasting time raking herself over ghe coals. (n.b. I don’t mean absolution, but she’ll move along faster by owning and forgiving herself for her mistake). Sarah’s had to live with people being angry with her (despite her having good cause), and Joe had the list. They’re both experienced coaches to help Joyce navigate this.
Jason Rivest
I think Sarah’s and Joe’s atheism would be relevant in this situation. Joyce’s atheism is new, and she still doesn’t know how to be as an atheist. The people she would usually talk about these things she didn’t dare. Liz ended up being a very bad role model, but it’s clear Joyce just wanted to test things out, and wasn’t entirely comfortable saying all these mean things, even when she thought nobody was there to hear her say them.
Dorothy is clearly a very good model of how an atheist can be, and I’m sure that’ll be pointed out to her, but also Dorothy was never raised religiously. Sarah and Joe may have been, though not necessarily in as repressive a way as she was. This experience might help them relate to Joyce, understand what she’s going through and help her find a way forward.
Eesh
Or maybe, and hear me out on this, JOYCE should talk to Becky.
I think it’s entirely unfair of Dotty to be “disappointed” in what Joyce was saying about her own feelings on a religion she was heavily indoctrinated into as she tries to shake it off. I think it’s entirely unfair of half the comments section yesterday to get up in arms about Joyce “lying” to Becky or “being mean to christians” because as far as Joyce knew, there wasn’t anyone but herself in the room to be mean to!
Joyce wasn’t required to let anyone in on her mental state until she was ready to, and if Becky hadn’t been hunting her down for daring to have another friend (and Dotty along for the ride to apparently be “disappointed” in her for skipping class) they wouldn’t have been around to hear Joyce ripping her own beliefs apart.
Both Becky and Dorothy need to get over this idea of Who Joyce Is they have in their head and let her grow. Skipping one day of class for a friend who is in town for One Day Only isn’t disappointing, it’s normal. Not telling someone about your changing beliefs because the last time you did they dumpstered your feelings as “just a phase” and childish…is healthy.
Joyce is allowed to change. She’s allowed to grow in ways which aren’t fun for other people. She wasn’t intentionally being hurtful and it’s gross that she’s apparently the only one in their friend group not allowed to move forward without being treated like she’s doing it to be cruel.
Dr. T
To be fair, at first he’s doing the same thing as Dorothy (looking after Becky in concern as she leaves), then switches to do the same thing as Sarah (looking at Joyce in concern). I think he reads the room just fine here in order to help Joyce *possibly* fix this in the future.
Matthew E Davis
Yeah, Joe has a lot more emotional intelligence that he lets on or the comments tend to want to grant him.
Jason
Joe’s problem (or, well, one of) is that he doesn’t WANT emotional intelligence. He actively avoids things getting “real”, almost certainly because of his emotional intelligence. But if someone is refusing to use the intelligence they have they’re still behaving in a way which is unintelligent. When he lets himself use what he has we see someone capable of great caring, understanding and empathy and a desire to be and do better- but it’s wrapped up in his own fears, hesitation and I honestly think a good pinch of self-loathing.
My point is, it’s easy to not expect emotional intelligence from Joe.
ktbear
I don’t think muffins are going to fix this.
Clif
But suppose they were really good muffins.
milu
ah well in that case, sure.
Felix
What if they’re divine?
*badum-dish*
Too soon?
Needfuldoer
“So, you stuck your foot in your mouth” starts Joe, one foot up on a chair like a camp counselor trying to be cool.
Casi
I don’t know why, but i feel Joe would sound like Troy McClure if he did that.
“I’m Joe Rosenthal, you may remember me from such mortifying escapades as ‘The List Dude’ and ‘Being in a porn with Roz'”
Decidedly Orthogonal
TBF the second one was neither porn, nor mortifying. They were neither paid nor embarrassed to be bare-assed.
milu
nice ?
RassilonTDavros
I’m not sure that she’s mad, necessarily, but it definitely makes sense.
While she didn’t shy away from the fact that she disagreed with Joyce’s now-former beliefs on a fundamental level, and was often horrified of some of the messages contained within (ex: all the good things we do are God working though us), Dorothy was never dismissive of Joyce’s beliefs, and always treated her first and foremost as a human being instead of something to be mocked. And she was… pretty much the only one who didn’t do that, early on, which was crucial to the development of their friendship. (need to stop myself from writing a wildly-off-topic shipping manifesto.)
Seeing Joyce, of all people, seemingly treating Becky the way everyone else treated Joyce at the beginning of the comic has got to be hard for her to watch, because this is exactly what Dorothy strove so hard to be better than.
Theozilla
Except Joyce had no way of knowing Becky was there to witness Joyce giving voice to the ugly pent up feelings she’s been keeping bottled up. That’s distinct from the mockery Joyce experienced to her face when she first started the previous semester. Joyce’s ire was not targeted towards Becky in this instance.
Jon F.
Try telling that to Becky.
I get it, I do, and I’ve mentioned how I empathize with Joyce both yesterday and today. But Joyce is still responsible for the words she says, even when venting in a public dorm room, even if she never meant for Becky to hear it. I don’t ascribe her much blame or hold it against her, but she’s still responsible for saying it.
Theozilla
Oh Joyce is most certainly responsible for her actions/words. But that doesn’t mean Dorothy being harsh, and essentially rubbing salt in a just opened sound is helpful either. Now Dorothy being somewhat is a perfectly reasonable reaction and in-character for Dorothy, like Joyce’s venting, it’s understandable Dorothy isn’t going to have the perfect response every time either. But I think people commenting that Dorothy was harsh is perfectly fair too, especially since it’s not a condemnation of Dorothy.
Formerly Glenn
I wouldn’t say that she’s being harsh. She’s expressing her feelings of disappointment with her friend, to her friend.
She’s not yelling, she’s not scathing, she’s not browbeating.
People who are friends need to be able to express their feelings with each other can’t call each other on perceived crap.
Theozilla
Eh, it still comes off as harsh to me, considering the context and phrasing. Perhaps if it wasn’t the first thing Dorothy said or she phrased with an “I” statement it wouldn’t come off as harsh to me.
RassilonTDavros
I don’t think Joyce meant to insult Becky– as you said, she had no idea that Becky was there– but I’m pretty sure that both Dorothy and Becky think that she was talking about Becky. And it’s not like an explanation would make it hurt that much less.
Needfuldoer
I think it depends on how much Becky and Dorothy heard. If the door was open this whole time, they might have heard her from down the hall and followed her voice. (Why else would they be looking for them in the guys’ wing?)
Granted, Joyce openly mocking believers in general is only slightly less shitty than Joyce openly mocking Becky specifically for being a believer, but still.
Jason
I don’t think Joyce was mocking believers in general though- although she’s actively painting it that way to avoid what she’s actually doing being so obvious to Liz, which is actively mocking herself. There’s a lot (by my read) of self-loathing for everything she swallowed without ever actually examining it until she hit the first breaking point (Becky coming out to her). My own childhood “teachings” weren’t religious but it was awful and I definitely went through a massive stage of “how could I have been such an idiot, why didn’t I see this” self-loathing that still comes back up sometimes. I’m seeing something I REALLY relate to in Joyce- anger and bitterness and resentment and a massive, completely disproportionate amount of it being directed at herself.
I might be reading it wrong since it does resonate with my personal experiences but that’s my take.
heliska
I’m pretty certain you’re very spot on here. She would never mock Becky, even behind her back. She’s expressing her anger at herself for spending so much of her life living in a way that she now sees as ridiculous. I can’t blame her in any way, honestly ; it’s hard enough for her, she’s got the right to figure herself out and a few mishaps here and there are bound to happen. I love Dorothy, but reacting like she did isn’t great.
TheCerpent
Yeah, I agree with this, too. It felt mostly self-directed, with a healthy dash of “trying to fit in with new friend” energy.
Joyce is pretty desperate for approval; she was previously very vocal about her previous religious beliefs, and it became a large part of the identity people associated with her. Casting aside those beliefs, that identity, is scary. Especially when she is FULLY aware that being open about her burgeoning atheism opens her up to a lot of mockery, which she suspects/fears she will deserve. Joyce has shown a habit of trying to avoid the consequences of her words and deeds – at least initially.
With Liz, she felt like she could come out of that “closet” as it were. And as a number of people do when they’re leaving their “closet,” they may over-express themselves, exaggerate their feelings or expression of their hidden self, like the backswing of a pendulum. It’s like a release of pressure, and, sadly, Liz basically egged it on. Liz still lives in her own closet, of sorts, but she also has probably carved her own exit from it far before now. She probably thinks it’s good Joyce is cutting loose like this, but also probably doesn’t realize how Joyce is struggling to keep the facade up, let alone the fact that there are people Joyce cares about and wants close to her that also don’t know her truth.
TheCerpent
Also, Liz probably doesn’t realize how uncharacteristically Joyce is acting right now. She’s only seen the face Joyce shows her; probably doesn’t know Joyce isn’t like that with her other friends.
GeekRyuu
No, I can understand that. I was raised as a good little Church-going Republican and I occasionally look back on that with deep cringing. I can absolutely see Joyce’s actions as being self-condemning, not directed at anyone else. The timing was just really, REALLY bad for her venting.
Jon F.
It is really shocking how patient Dorothy was with Joyce early on. I agree, it must’ve made seeing Joyce hurt her childhood friend like this even more painful to watch.
Fay
Dorothy’s not mad, just disappointed. (Once again, being the classic Mom Friend.)
Jamie
Dorothy meant what she said. She’s not mad. She’s disappointed.
Sure, that’s a common misleading statement, but when most people say that kind of thing, they actually mean “frustrated”, because they were attempting something and it isn’t working and the frustration is building into anger.
Dorothy wasn’t trying anything. She just witnessed a scene, and she’s disappointed in Joyce.
Matthew E Davis
And I suspect she’s going to check on Becky here in a sec. I think that it would serve the narrative more to have them talk, too.
A Red Balloon
Hopefully she won’t come to feel guilt for unpacking trauma or even looking after herself in general.
Lan
I suspect that Dorothy has had an inclination that something was going on with Joyce for a while and I reckon her thought process when she showed up was “so Joyce really is questioning/abandoning her faith after all and instead of coming to talk to me about it she’s talking shit with somebody she’s only ever met online even though she knows her best friend still believes in God.” It seems like she might be feeling a little betrayed but she’s probably mostly mad that Joyce said something so vicious and thoughtless just because she thought Becky wasn’t around
Dan-i
I mean Sarah might be able to help her understand getting self-hatey and grouchy after disillusionment.
Thag Simmons
RIP Joyce.
20??-20??
RassilonTDavros
…Liz planned this, didn’t she.
Thulcandran
What? How could she possibly have planned this? Especially Becky skipping class and overhearing them?
Doctor_Who
I don’t think so, I think she just really doesn’t want to be at ground zero of whatever’s happening.
Thag Simmons
This would not a foreseeable outcome with the information Liz is likely to have
Reltzik
Well, if she put together the plan the moment she realized Joyce was deconverted and closeted… yeah, she probably could have. Timed things for when classes were letting out and people were likely to come back to the dorms and trust that SOMEONE would overhear.
I have no basis for thinking she did, but she could have.
Thag Simmons
Getting Joyce to inadvertently out herself as an atheist? Maybe, it’d require a degree of malice we haven’t really seen from Liz but I guess it’s not impossible.
Getting Becky/Dorothy specifically to hear Joyce calling people like Becky idiots when she thinks nobody can hear? No. That’s maybe something Mike could have done, with significantly more preparation and understanding of the marks than Liz would reasonable have.
milu
so what you’re saying is, Liz is Mike?
Deviant
I don’t think its the fact that Joyce outed herself as an atheist that is the issue. I think its the fact that she did it incredibly disrespectfully by calling people who believe idiots in a very mocking manner. Especially in front of a believing friend who believes her mother is in paradise?
Eesh
She didn’t know she was in front of that friend. That friend hunted her down for hanging out with someone because she’s wildly jealous and way, way too possessive of Joyce.
Joyce wasn’t talking To or About Becky, and Becky has said similarly hurtful things without ever being called out about it.
Joyce is allowed to change, grow, and do it painfully if necessary. She shouldn’t have to consider other people’s feelings at all times while dealing with her own trauma, particularly when that person wouldn’t even have been around if she wasn’t treating Joyce like a chew toy she didn’t want to share.
RassilonTDavros
I… genuinely don’t know what made me from thirty minutes ago think Liz planned this. Like, no way does she have the info. Was I making a joke?
I think it was something that popped into my head for some reason. Liz planning this makes no sense.
King Daniel
You’re just covering for the fact that you let slip a hint to Willis having shown you a future strip from twelve years into the future ahead of schedule. We’re on to you!
Clif
That’s right. You can’t fool us.
Needfuldoer
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, you won’t get fooled again.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
milu
oh no, Rassilon is now trying to fool us even more by leading us believe that they have insider info!!! truly an evil 4D-chess mastermind.
oh wait, Rassilon is Mike now??? my god, this explains, um, so little. if we’re being honest