I mean, I think I had too many french fries for dinner tonight (Damn you, Five Guys). I can’t be certain, I’ve only my memory to rely on. Perhaps I actually had a salad and some cottage cheese.
King Daniel, stop trying to make long-s happen. It’s not going to happen!
UniqueSnowflake2
That’s too bad; it used to be an integral part of our language.
Reltzik
Careful. If Emperor’s around, puns might get you sum-arily imprisoned.
Marsh Maryrose
So did thorn, yogh, ash, and eth. I don’t miss them. Do you?
Personally, I think we haven’t reformed spelling <b?enough. The letter “C” has had a reign of confusion that has gone on far too long.
Marsh Maryrose
Baka! Do the open/close tags first, and fill in the contents afterword.
Reltzik
I dunno. Eth seems to me less like it was integral and more like it was derivative.
Kryss LaBryn
I personally am partial to thorn and use it semi-regularly; but I have a 10th century Norse persona in a Medieval recreation group, so.
Can I just say that having the formal/plural and informal/familiar you/thou back again would be really freaking helpful sometimes? “Y’all” isn’t always appropriate.
Thorn and eth are, in fact, a loss. ‘Th’ has two different pronunciations, which map to them.
For the other two, due to pronunciation drift, yogh would really only be useful as an etymological marker, and ash’s usefulness as an English letter over the non-ligature ‘ae’, or simply e, is debatable. (And it is still used, though less commonly.)
No Name
Actually, since “yogh” made two sounds (a “y” sound and a “gh” sound (which sounds a bit like a cat’s hiss)) it would be a useful replacement for all the silent gh’s out there. Not so sure about the ones that make “f” sounds now, thouʒ (the one in ghost was due to the Dutch printers trying use Dutch orthography rules for English – they inserted an h into gost)
That’s kind of my point, though – it, as well as the variant pronunciations of the ‘gh’ digraph, is why it’s disuse isn’t a huge loss.
Ȝ, like the ‘gh’ digraph, wouldn’t be as useful a guide to pronunciation as the ‘y’ that replaced it as the glyph for the /j/ sound, and would really only be a marker of the etymology, and, occasionally, for distinguishing homophones, but for places where it was ‘gh’, the digraph does that perfectly well, and I can’t think of any case where it would do either for /j/ words.
thejeff
A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling:
For example, in Year 1 that useless letter “c” would be dropped to be replased either by “k” or “s”, and likewise “x” would no longer be part of the alphabet.
The only kase in which “c” would be retained would be the “ch” formation, which will be dealt with later.
Year 2 might reform “w” spelling, so that “which” and “one” would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish “y” replasing it with “i” and iear 4 might fiks the “g/j” anomali wonse and for all.
Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants.
Bai iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez “c”, “y” and “x” — bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez — tu riplais “ch”, “sh”, and “th” rispektivli.
Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.
Attributed, probably falsely, to Mark Twain.
hof1991
Melvil Dewey of the Dewey Decimal system was also a simplified speller. Started using Dui as his last name.
No Name
Y’know, I never understood the hate for double letters. Sure, they don’t lengthen the sound of the consonant itself, but they do serve a purpose in English orthography: they shorten the previous vowel! That’s why you learn to double the last consonant in short words with short last syllables when adding “ing”, “ed” or “es”, provided the last letter isn’t an x, part of a digraph (th, sh, ch, gh, ng), or already paired up (any other pair of consonants). It’s also why I’ll always spell “bussing” et al. with two s’s – no one says “omnibus” any more.
Also, I’m pretty sure Mark Twain spoke with a rhotic accent, and even if he didn’t, he had to have known rhotic vs. non-rhotic was the defining feature separating American English from British English. So it was almost definitely not him (letez, doderez). Wouldn’t put it past Jonathan Swift, though.
thejeff
Mostly I just like the almost unreadable gibberish by the end.
Krys Brynhildr
See, I thought at first that this was the “Ahnold one” that was floating around a while after he became the Governator. Probably what inspired that joke though.
No Name
Thorn and eth performed valuable functions! Ever since the French showed up with their tee-aitches and the Dutch with their printing-presses we’ve been stuck with the same digraph for two very different sounds!
And yes, I saw Kamino’s comment before posting this one, it just bears repeating.
StoneyB
‘Fraid not. When Þ and ð were current both were used indifferently for both the voiced and the voiceless sound.
No Name
Yes, I know, but so were s and z, and f and v. And it wasn’t actually indiscriminate. The þ, s and f were voiceless in most positions, but were voiced when placed between vowels, because that’s just the way Old and Middle English worked. Z’s and v’s were predominately used in loan words from Latin and Greek and for the most part were treated the exact same way as s and f, and the only reason ð (a fancy d with a stroke, the capital form isn’t even fancy) even exists is because when English finally started differentiating it’s voiced and voiceless fricatives (around the Late Middle/ Early Modern period), there was an orthographic gap.
Inahc
Possessive its has no apostrophe. (Normally I’d try not to say anything, but you’re already talking about English!)
Give it a few more decades and it will.
If we’re talking about straightening out the spelling, might as well regularize some of the sillier grammatical accidents of history.
Interestingly, the possessive for “it” originally had an apostrophe, losing it by the early 19th century.
Also, you’re misusing the long s. It’s not used for the last letter – unleſs, þorns, as. (Also, although you didn’t use a word thus spelt, it’s also only used for the first of a double s, even in the middle of a word – so miſsile, frex.)
So, in Shakespeare’s The Tempest, the sprite Ariel sings:
Where the bee sucks, there suck I
In a cowslip’s bell I lie
This was set to music by Robert Johnson (among many others), and it’s a lovely little piece. But the primary reason one of my friends brought it to the attention of my Early Music group’s mentor had to do with the way that it looks on the : printed page/a>.
I haven’t seen this many long s-es since using them as shorthand for “folder” on System 7. (It only allowed 31 characters in file and folder names, we had to make them count! It made them easy to type, something like Option-S.)
Durandal_1707
Those weren’t long s-es, they were what Unicode calls “Latin Small Letter F With Hook”. The keystroke was option-F; ƒ. Hey, it still works!
Needfuldoer
Yes! That was it! Somebody around here keeps using the long S and it blurred in my mind. They look the same to me! There’s only so much definition you could get with so few pixels.
(Also, it figures the answer comes from someone with a Marathon gravatar.
Personally, I think that the English alphabet needs a new* letter for what you normally refer to as an “R”, but which is more like a really, really thick L**.
*Or possibly re-introduce some old letter that has fallen out of use. Either way.
**Certain dialects (such as Scottish) are of course using a more proper R sound, and are therefore allowed to keep the R letter.
Well, Joe already knows Amber’s likely going to be his step-sister, and he’s currently “sworn off all women forever” last I checked, so he’s definitely not hitting on Amber.
150 thoughts on “Endgame”
Ana Chronistic
Hey, he’s got a LOT of bras and panties!
Doctor_Who
But they only said “panty raids” twice. I thought you had to say it three times before BeetleJoes appeared in a cloud of Axe.
EvilMidnightLurker
Joe is but the herald. Say it one more time and Happosai appears.
LeslieBean4Shizzle
… wow. Of all the things I expected to read here, a Ranma 1/2 reference was not amoung them. Tip of the hat for that one, EvilMidnightLurker.
Arawn
Happosai Burst!
PB
University may vex me
Still I yearn for antics sexy
I now summon the thief of clothes
BeetleJoes
BeetleJoes
BEETLEJOES!
AnvilPro
Time for big brother Joe to steer Faz straight!
unrachel
Faz is already far too straight
thejeff
Are you sure?
Eldritch Gentleman
Straight into a dumpster with a bit of luck.
ValdVin
Joe…old Joe, that is…Faz would be suitable punishment.
Kris
Everyone overanalyze that “I think” line! That’s troubling probably!
Doctor_Who
I mean, I think I had too many french fries for dinner tonight (Damn you, Five Guys). I can’t be certain, I’ve only my memory to rely on. Perhaps I actually had a salad and some cottage cheese.
…Think my waistline will buy it?
King Daniel
Amber’s already been ſhown to not be remembering her “nightly adventures” anymore. This is juſt Amber admitting it to someone elſe for the firſt time.
(as an aſide, I’m trying to uſe the long-s more 😀)
Marsh Maryrose
King Daniel, stop trying to make long-s happen. It’s not going to happen!
UniqueSnowflake2
That’s too bad; it used to be an integral part of our language.
Reltzik
Careful. If Emperor’s around, puns might get you sum-arily imprisoned.
Marsh Maryrose
So did thorn, yogh, ash, and eth. I don’t miss them. Do you?
Personally, I think we haven’t reformed spelling <b?enough. The letter “C” has had a reign of confusion that has gone on far too long.
Marsh Maryrose
Baka! Do the open/close tags first, and fill in the contents afterword.
Reltzik
I dunno. Eth seems to me less like it was integral and more like it was derivative.
Kryss LaBryn
I personally am partial to thorn and use it semi-regularly; but I have a 10th century Norse persona in a Medieval recreation group, so.
Can I just say that having the formal/plural and informal/familiar you/thou back again would be really freaking helpful sometimes? “Y’all” isn’t always appropriate.
Kamino Neko
I use thou and thee a bunch, though usually to make a point about the singular they.
Clif
Y’all isn’t always appropriate? Herisy, I say herrasy!
David DeLaney
Well, it’s true!
… sometimes you absolutely require “all y’all”.
–Dave, pronouning weirds examples
Charlie Spencer
The ‘C’ is completely useless. Ditto ‘Q’. And don’t get me started on cursive.
Kamino Neko
Thorn and eth are, in fact, a loss. ‘Th’ has two different pronunciations, which map to them.
For the other two, due to pronunciation drift, yogh would really only be useful as an etymological marker, and ash’s usefulness as an English letter over the non-ligature ‘ae’, or simply e, is debatable. (And it is still used, though less commonly.)
No Name
Actually, since “yogh” made two sounds (a “y” sound and a “gh” sound (which sounds a bit like a cat’s hiss)) it would be a useful replacement for all the silent gh’s out there. Not so sure about the ones that make “f” sounds now, thouʒ (the one in ghost was due to the Dutch printers trying use Dutch orthography rules for English – they inserted an h into gost)
Kamino Neko
That’s kind of my point, though – it, as well as the variant pronunciations of the ‘gh’ digraph, is why it’s disuse isn’t a huge loss.
Ȝ, like the ‘gh’ digraph, wouldn’t be as useful a guide to pronunciation as the ‘y’ that replaced it as the glyph for the /j/ sound, and would really only be a marker of the etymology, and, occasionally, for distinguishing homophones, but for places where it was ‘gh’, the digraph does that perfectly well, and I can’t think of any case where it would do either for /j/ words.
thejeff
Attributed, probably falsely, to Mark Twain.
hof1991
Melvil Dewey of the Dewey Decimal system was also a simplified speller. Started using Dui as his last name.
No Name
Y’know, I never understood the hate for double letters. Sure, they don’t lengthen the sound of the consonant itself, but they do serve a purpose in English orthography: they shorten the previous vowel! That’s why you learn to double the last consonant in short words with short last syllables when adding “ing”, “ed” or “es”, provided the last letter isn’t an x, part of a digraph (th, sh, ch, gh, ng), or already paired up (any other pair of consonants). It’s also why I’ll always spell “bussing” et al. with two s’s – no one says “omnibus” any more.
Also, I’m pretty sure Mark Twain spoke with a rhotic accent, and even if he didn’t, he had to have known rhotic vs. non-rhotic was the defining feature separating American English from British English. So it was almost definitely not him (letez, doderez). Wouldn’t put it past Jonathan Swift, though.
thejeff
Mostly I just like the almost unreadable gibberish by the end.
Krys Brynhildr
See, I thought at first that this was the “Ahnold one” that was floating around a while after he became the Governator. Probably what inspired that joke though.
No Name
Thorn and eth performed valuable functions! Ever since the French showed up with their tee-aitches and the Dutch with their printing-presses we’ve been stuck with the same digraph for two very different sounds!
And yes, I saw Kamino’s comment before posting this one, it just bears repeating.
StoneyB
‘Fraid not. When Þ and ð were current both were used indifferently for both the voiced and the voiceless sound.
No Name
Yes, I know, but so were s and z, and f and v. And it wasn’t actually indiscriminate. The þ, s and f were voiceless in most positions, but were voiced when placed between vowels, because that’s just the way Old and Middle English worked. Z’s and v’s were predominately used in loan words from Latin and Greek and for the most part were treated the exact same way as s and f, and the only reason ð (a fancy d with a stroke, the capital form isn’t even fancy) even exists is because when English finally started differentiating it’s voiced and voiceless fricatives (around the Late Middle/ Early Modern period), there was an orthographic gap.
Inahc
Possessive its has no apostrophe. (Normally I’d try not to say anything, but you’re already talking about English!)
Inahc
interestingly, I just stumbled on an exception to the rule of pronouns not using apostrophes: possessive “one” is “one’s”. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe/uU8ij7ANNe0
No Name
Shoot! I’m usually good about that. Ah well.
thejeff
Give it a few more decades and it will.
If we’re talking about straightening out the spelling, might as well regularize some of the sillier grammatical accidents of history.
Interestingly, the possessive for “it” originally had an apostrophe, losing it by the early 19th century.
David DeLaney
… aren’t yogh, ash, and thorn essential ingredients for keeping the Fae away?
–Dave, and if so, what does this say that James Nicoll hasn’t already said about the current state of our English as she is wrote?
Reltzik
The long-s is just a poor man’s substitute for large-s.
*flees for dear punning life*
Rabid Rabbit
Pfft, you’re not being a real punctuation ſnob unleſſ you’re uſing ðornſ aſ well: http://www.thebrightsidecomic.com/chapter-30-p377/
LaduSwala
Noooo, not a new interesting webcomic to start reading at 1 am!
Rabid Rabbit
I have no regrets. (Sorry, I mean “no regretſ”.) That webcomic is brilliant and deserves to be far better known.
LaduSwala
Oh yeah, I’m 4 chapters in already and it’s oddly charming and delightful. Thank you for sharing!
Rabid Rabbit
Your avatar makes that a particularly delightful response.
Kamino Neko
Ðat’s an eð, not a þorn. Ðey’re two totally different letters, alðough ðey boþ represent sounds represented by ‘th’ in standard English orþography.
(And, unlike the long s, reintroducing ðem would serve a purpose, as ðey represent different sounds, and ðus would be a better pronunciation guide.)
Kamino Neko
Also, you’re misusing the long s. It’s not used for the last letter – unleſs, þorns, as. (Also, although you didn’t use a word thus spelt, it’s also only used for the first of a double s, even in the middle of a word – so miſsile, frex.)
Marsh Maryrose
So, in Shakespeare’s The Tempest, the sprite Ariel sings:
Where the bee sucks, there suck I
In a cowslip’s bell I lie
This was set to music by Robert Johnson (among many others), and it’s a lovely little piece. But the primary reason one of my friends brought it to the attention of my Early Music group’s mentor had to do with the way that it looks on the : printed page/a>.
Needfuldoer
I haven’t seen this many long s-es since using them as shorthand for “folder” on System 7. (It only allowed 31 characters in file and folder names, we had to make them count! It made them easy to type, something like Option-S.)
Durandal_1707
Those weren’t long s-es, they were what Unicode calls “Latin Small Letter F With Hook”. The keystroke was option-F; ƒ. Hey, it still works!
Needfuldoer
Yes! That was it! Somebody around here keeps using the long S and it blurred in my mind. They look the same to me! There’s only so much definition you could get with so few pixels.
(Also, it figures the answer comes from someone with a Marathon gravatar.
Durandal_1707
Just be aware that I intend to imagine an outrageous lisp when reading any post that contains a long s in it.
Rabid Rabbit
ſo if I were to ſay ðat ſhe ſellſſeaſhellſ by the ſeaſhore…
Deanatay
I’d fay fhe needs a leff obfcure meanf of employment…
Deanatay
Dammit, missed an ‘f’
Emperor Norton II
Personally, I think that the English alphabet needs a new* letter for what you normally refer to as an “R”, but which is more like a really, really thick L**.
*Or possibly re-introduce some old letter that has fallen out of use. Either way.
**Certain dialects (such as Scottish) are of course using a more proper R sound, and are therefore allowed to keep the R letter.
Rowen Morland
That’s pretty disgusting to read.
Zaidyer
So she thinks she’s been doing stuff at night. Why, that’s not alarming at all!
Dara
They have got to talk this shit out. Shame Amber’s not ready to do it, like, at all. :/
Mr D
I predict a lot of Joe-bashing over the next few hours.
Opus the Poet
So, all yellow then?
Passchendaele
Solution: give Faz to Joe, run away. What’s the worst that could happen? 😛
Doctor_Who
One could learn from the other.
No, sorry, that’s the second worst thing that could happen.
Both could learn from the other.
Passchendaele
*thinks*
*screams*
Do Not Want!
JessWitt
Faz gets passed around the campus like a hot potato, causing carnage everywhere he goes.
Stephen Bierce
The Richard Marx hacked Muzak spin continues…
I swear I left him with Joe Rosenthal
I swear I left him safe and sound…
Plasma Mongoose
Is Joe hitting on Faz???
jeffepp
….
Yes.
Sure.
Let’s go with that.
King Daniel
Well, Joe already knows Amber’s likely going to be his step-sister, and he’s currently “sworn off all women forever” last I checked, so he’s definitely not hitting on Amber.
…Danny? 😛
Plasma Mongoose
Who could possibly resist the great and wonderful Faz?
Keulen
I’m pretty sure panty raids stopped being a thing on college campuses decades ago.
ZerglingOne
Shit, it stopped being a thing in 6th grade camp before I went. And that was in the stone age (1998).