I’m sure that their church taught EVERY girl in their youth group that changing is a good thing and that they should embrace and welcome it at every opportunity as a blessing from God.
*disclaimer: above is depiction of other people’s attitudes, not a representation of my own.
RowenMorland
“But it was too late and everyone associated that with Reltzik forever.”
ktbear
Reltzik thinks changing babies is womens work? Wow.
clif
Don’t mind me. I’m just trying to figure out what they change them into.
StClair
There’s a comic – an early Something*Positive, I think – where the protag is babysitting, and informs the wee lad that his parents are fattening up to be eaten, and the culling happens at a place called “kindergarten”. Cut to this exchange in the final panel:
“Did you change him?”
“Oh, probably.”
Jeremy Betts
Sounds like A Promised Neverland.
He Who Abides
Dilbert, actually.
Edwin I Callahan
I think that might have been an early Dilbert strip, with Dogbert as the babysitter.
Daniel M Ball
take the baby, mix with two parts sacred cow before grinding for delicious hamburger.
I, um, really don’t like that this discussion, whether it needed to happen now or not, is happening under the influence of Booster’s discount psychoanalysis session, which I guess Becky isn’t going to, y’know, *doubt* a little before using it as a foundation for this whole talk?
I think Becky can tell something’s up with Joyce, but Wacky Mask Becky hasn’t been able to draw it out yet.
Meanwhile, Joyce is struggling with a potent cocktail of survivor’s guilt (Mike, maybe Toedead to an extent), religious doubt (*gestures broadly at the everything*), identity crisis (“who am I now that I’m not practicing?”), and imposter syndrome (“Becky still believes, and she’s been through much worse than me, so what’s my problem?”) That last bit is holding her back from working through this with the one person out of the main cast who can most relate to her. (I’d imagine Jocelyne would understand too, but she’s supporting cast.)
Fair with regards to Becky accepting it, but not fair with regards to Becky using it as a foundation for a discussion, because the point is less whether her analysis was accurate and more whether her analysis was morally okay or remotely decorous.
Reminds me of Buffy where all the characters were keeping secrets so they wrote in an episode where everyone sang their secrets out while under the influence of a demon. Really moved the plot along.
Am I the only one that thinks this is giving Becky too much credit? Like, I get the initial thought process. Becky is shouting about religion more than usual, and she knows Joyce better than anyone else. But let’s be real—Becky is often just straight-up annoying, and not only because she’s doing it strategically. And if she knew Joyce so well, wouldn’t she know that this kind of prodding is not the best way to get to her? Wouldn’t she know that she would have better luck pretending to be less interested in god than by loudly emphasizing her devotion, which is, as we see, just making Joyce retreat further into her emotional hole? Or even that straight conversations like this would work better?
I dunno. It’s a fair theory, but people seem to be getting totally on-board to the point of fact and…I just don’t see it.
Reltzik
Becky brought down a Congresswoman’s reelection by hacking her Twitter account while in the same room with her. I’m prepared to give her a hell of a lot of credit.
… but I can also see her not knowing what was wrong.
Jane
I wouldn’t necessarily call it a slam dunk; I think her behavior is consistent with trying to get a friend to open up about a touchy topic she doesn’t necessarily know how to broach, but it’s not the only explanation possible if the story was actually using the setup for something else later.
As for her specific approach… It seems totally Becky to me. Joke, prod, overact, anything it takes to get the door open without having to just come out and say, “Hey, are you still going to church?” – because that’s a serious conversation, and serious conversations are scary. It’s a lot easier to talk about an important topic when you can pretend it was all a joke if it looks like it’s about to go wrong.
That said, my primary reason for believing she knows is mostly meta – Becky seems to be repeatedly coming back to this issue in a way that’s fairly specific and explicitly being shown to the reader, while Joyce was just established to have been hiding her newfound lack of faith from her best friend. The fact that Becky has done this multiple times in the last real-world month suggests that it’s acting as a setup for something, and it ties in pretty obviously with Joyce’s recent issues. But the obvious answer isn’t always the right one, and I can see other directions the plot could take this setup.
As that jerk Booster said, Joyce is afraid of admitting something she has always been. Joyce doesn’t hear the voice of god, and she is afraid to confess that truth because religion was a constant she and Becky could rely on.
Joyce, she is dating a Atheist (I think, cant remember exactly what they are), I doubt it would take her very long at all to except your change of world views.
I don’t think she’s afraid that Becky will stop liking her, but she is afraid of losing something she considers integral to who she is, and Becky is the person who has known her the longest, and the closest person to her with whom she shares her faith.
Maybe, but religious people sometimes take it very personally when someone stops believing their shared god(s) even exist. It the undermines whole faith/born-again narrative.
Atheists get weird around apostates? Please would you provide some examples to help guide my searches on this? I would like to learn more if you are willing to share.
Of course raising the question provides an example case, but I guess I’m curious if you mean atheists get weird about it in a different way, or if its just the curiosity about the apostates journey you mean.
I mean, I suppose it would depend for me only if the apostate had abandoned one religion for another, vice for atheism. (with the former not really being of any interest)
For the latter my curiosity is just about what guided their decision. Since I was raised areligiously by atheists I was left to my own devices to figure out religion and ended up first agnostic (arguably a strong agnostic) and later settled comfortably into atheism, however, it always bugs me that I don’t know if I would have found this path if I had been raised in a religious family or community.
Heather
Im an atheist who was once Christian and sometimes I think it can just be a clash of life experiences really. There was a time in my life I was kind of bitter and angry honestly because of the emotional turmoil religion put me through. Someone who has never really had those issues might rightfully feel uncomfortable or find they can’t fully grasp/understand that.
Sam
Apostates can be very emotionally charged by their feelings of betrayal and hurt of their religious experiences and tend to be fairly outspoken about it while their pain is still raw and especially if they used to believe strongly.
This makes it uncomfortable for everyone that hasn’t experienced that turmoil and can’t connect with that anger, frustration and sadness or feel they over step lines due to their emotions. Even other atheists who may somewhat agreed, but may not have the anger or hurt that drives them to an extreme that an apostate may start at while at the deepest level of hurt.
While more mild apostates might be difficult to understand by both sides just because they don’t seem hurt or all that bothered by the loss of what many people find gives them a sense of security, safety and comfort.
thank you for that, BBCC, but it may be premature, just because we haven’t burned the whole country down in political rioting yet, doesn’t mean we’re not going to as soon as the states actually finish the recounts and the court-case gets (Predictably) tossed out because the plaintiff is demanding something not only illegal, but also impossible. Save the congrats until December at the EARLIEST. This year’s been so acrimonious and nasty doesn’t mean the hilarity’s over with, it just means there’s a pause and some pundits are being smug while thinking this will prevent people from outright losing their shit in public.
Thank you so much! I was teaching liberal 3rd Graders on zoom at the time, and it was SO exciting.
@daniel if it’s any consolation, my partner has been taking one for the team by consuming conservative media all week, and they AREN’T doing the thing where they undermine the election or call for action or organize anyone against the election results. The media isn’t fanning flames, which would’ve been necessary for an all-out Civil Freakout. Like, the trumpers are sad, they might do some disorganized domestic terrorism (hopefully not) but the threat to the country as a whole is really unlikely now. Deep, deep sigh of relief over here.
Appreciated. The exchange of power may be… interesting, but it cannot possibly hurt that Biden is now the one with the formal legal backing. And that Trump’s burned his goodwill with most judges and the Secret Service, and I’m pretty sure sizable sectors of the intelligence and military branches (at least the higher-ups.) And that he’s been so egregiously out of line even the media and Republican party writ large are starting to jump ship, meaning they will not openly advocate for violence or a coup.
Yes, this is basically the lowest possible bar for such things, but here we fucking are.
thejeff
No formal legal backing at this point. Most states haven’t certified, electors haven’t voted, etc.
The media calls give him the perception of legitimacy, which may be more important. Those norms and traditions that everyone keeps talking about. Which even rolls through into some of the mechanics of transition happening, despite Trump: Secret Service has bumped up the protection he gets, he’s been getting at least some of the formal briefings.
It certainly doesn’t hurt that in the end it wasn’t really at all close. A big popular vote lead and solid leads in enough states that even if legal challenges (or some of the worse shenanigans) flipped one of them, he’d still win.
Yup. Panel 3, I figured she was just doing her usual poking about making Joyce pick her real best friend, but panel 4 made me feel better, ’cause it’s plainly more than that.
Using self-awareness of her jealousy issues to mask gratitude that Joyce has someone she can confide in, or genuinely glad that someone else is affectionately messing with her?
Becky wants Joyce to talk to someone. It’s just that if that “someone” isn’t going to be here, she’d rather it be Sarah (the big sister) than Dorothy (one of Joyce’s girl-crushes).
NotPiffany
Drat. “Her,” not “here.” Stupid lack of an edit button.
I would agree, except that I suspect that Joyce’s preferred pace would be to keep pretending and denying as long as she possibly can, hurting herself and maybe others in the process.
136 thoughts on “Gaggle”
Ana Chronistic
“look, change isn’t just what you get from a vending machine”
…
“actually, that’s the only place you WON’T get change”
Reed
i think you mean change isn’t just that thing from the david bowie song
Stephen Bierce
Turn and faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace the STRANGE
Reltzik
I’m sure that their church taught EVERY girl in their youth group that changing is a good thing and that they should embrace and welcome it at every opportunity as a blessing from God.
… diaper duty is woman’s work, after all.
Reltzik
*disclaimer: above is depiction of other people’s attitudes, not a representation of my own.
RowenMorland
“But it was too late and everyone associated that with Reltzik forever.”
ktbear
Reltzik thinks changing babies is womens work? Wow.
clif
Don’t mind me. I’m just trying to figure out what they change them into.
StClair
There’s a comic – an early Something*Positive, I think – where the protag is babysitting, and informs the wee lad that his parents are fattening up to be eaten, and the culling happens at a place called “kindergarten”. Cut to this exchange in the final panel:
“Did you change him?”
“Oh, probably.”
Jeremy Betts
Sounds like A Promised Neverland.
He Who Abides
Dilbert, actually.
Edwin I Callahan
I think that might have been an early Dilbert strip, with Dogbert as the babysitter.
Daniel M Ball
take the baby, mix with two parts sacred cow before grinding for delicious hamburger.
Doctor_Who
She would also secretly text about it with Joe.
poofdepoof
Ooh yes
He Who Abides
B – “Wait, who’s protesting here?”
S – “…”
Reltzik
S – “… everyone.”
B – “Even me?”
S – “Sounds like it.”
Leorale
Yay, religion comix incoming, I like these
TemporalShrew
I, um, really don’t like that this discussion, whether it needed to happen now or not, is happening under the influence of Booster’s discount psychoanalysis session, which I guess Becky isn’t going to, y’know, *doubt* a little before using it as a foundation for this whole talk?
abysswatcher1993
Becky has been pressuring Joyce a lot lately without Booster’s cheap Hanibal imitation.
He Who Abides
I would’ve gone with Sherlock Holmes, but Dr. Lecter works too.
a/snow/mous/e
speaking of sherlock… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKQOk5UlQSc
Needfuldoer
I think Becky can tell something’s up with Joyce, but Wacky Mask Becky hasn’t been able to draw it out yet.
Meanwhile, Joyce is struggling with a potent cocktail of survivor’s guilt (Mike, maybe Toedead to an extent), religious doubt (*gestures broadly at the everything*), identity crisis (“who am I now that I’m not practicing?”), and imposter syndrome (“Becky still believes, and she’s been through much worse than me, so what’s my problem?”) That last bit is holding her back from working through this with the one person out of the main cast who can most relate to her. (I’d imagine Jocelyne would understand too, but she’s supporting cast.)
Reltzik
Except Joyce agreed with the part where Booster said she was afraid of becoming a new person.
TemporalShrew
Fair with regards to Becky accepting it, but not fair with regards to Becky using it as a foundation for a discussion, because the point is less whether her analysis was accurate and more whether her analysis was morally okay or remotely decorous.
It was neither.
showler
Reminds me of Buffy where all the characters were keeping secrets so they wrote in an episode where everyone sang their secrets out while under the influence of a demon. Really moved the plot along.
Jhon
Demon Rum?
a/snow/mous/e
was that the one where Buffy was singing about “just going through the motions”?
Jane
I get the impression she’s just using it as an excuse to get Joyce to talk, since she seems to have been prodding her to open up a lot recently.
Regina phalange
Am I the only one that thinks this is giving Becky too much credit? Like, I get the initial thought process. Becky is shouting about religion more than usual, and she knows Joyce better than anyone else. But let’s be real—Becky is often just straight-up annoying, and not only because she’s doing it strategically. And if she knew Joyce so well, wouldn’t she know that this kind of prodding is not the best way to get to her? Wouldn’t she know that she would have better luck pretending to be less interested in god than by loudly emphasizing her devotion, which is, as we see, just making Joyce retreat further into her emotional hole? Or even that straight conversations like this would work better?
I dunno. It’s a fair theory, but people seem to be getting totally on-board to the point of fact and…I just don’t see it.
Reltzik
Becky brought down a Congresswoman’s reelection by hacking her Twitter account while in the same room with her. I’m prepared to give her a hell of a lot of credit.
… but I can also see her not knowing what was wrong.
Jane
I wouldn’t necessarily call it a slam dunk; I think her behavior is consistent with trying to get a friend to open up about a touchy topic she doesn’t necessarily know how to broach, but it’s not the only explanation possible if the story was actually using the setup for something else later.
As for her specific approach… It seems totally Becky to me. Joke, prod, overact, anything it takes to get the door open without having to just come out and say, “Hey, are you still going to church?” – because that’s a serious conversation, and serious conversations are scary. It’s a lot easier to talk about an important topic when you can pretend it was all a joke if it looks like it’s about to go wrong.
That said, my primary reason for believing she knows is mostly meta – Becky seems to be repeatedly coming back to this issue in a way that’s fairly specific and explicitly being shown to the reader, while Joyce was just established to have been hiding her newfound lack of faith from her best friend. The fact that Becky has done this multiple times in the last real-world month suggests that it’s acting as a setup for something, and it ties in pretty obviously with Joyce’s recent issues. But the obvious answer isn’t always the right one, and I can see other directions the plot could take this setup.
abysswatcher1993
As that jerk Booster said, Joyce is afraid of admitting something she has always been. Joyce doesn’t hear the voice of god, and she is afraid to confess that truth because religion was a constant she and Becky could rely on.
Switchchris
Joyce, she is dating a Atheist (I think, cant remember exactly what they are), I doubt it would take her very long at all to except your change of world views.
Reltzik
Dina is an atheist.
Joyce is an apostate.
That is so, so, so much worse.
Concolor44
I am pleased you recognize that crucial difference.
Deanatay
ITYM ‘better’.
And no, I don’t care what you actually think.
Reltzik
Worse from the perspective of their fundie upbringing, I mean.
Jed!
I don’t think she’s afraid that Becky will stop liking her, but she is afraid of losing something she considers integral to who she is, and Becky is the person who has known her the longest, and the closest person to her with whom she shares her faith.
Huehuetotl
Maybe, but religious people sometimes take it very personally when someone stops believing their shared god(s) even exist. It the undermines whole faith/born-again narrative.
Keulen
This, especially when the person who stops believing is a long-time close friend.
Beef
People get weird as shit around apostates, even other atheists.
Demoted Oblivious
Atheists get weird around apostates? Please would you provide some examples to help guide my searches on this? I would like to learn more if you are willing to share.
Of course raising the question provides an example case, but I guess I’m curious if you mean atheists get weird about it in a different way, or if its just the curiosity about the apostates journey you mean.
I mean, I suppose it would depend for me only if the apostate had abandoned one religion for another, vice for atheism. (with the former not really being of any interest)
For the latter my curiosity is just about what guided their decision. Since I was raised areligiously by atheists I was left to my own devices to figure out religion and ended up first agnostic (arguably a strong agnostic) and later settled comfortably into atheism, however, it always bugs me that I don’t know if I would have found this path if I had been raised in a religious family or community.
Heather
Im an atheist who was once Christian and sometimes I think it can just be a clash of life experiences really. There was a time in my life I was kind of bitter and angry honestly because of the emotional turmoil religion put me through. Someone who has never really had those issues might rightfully feel uncomfortable or find they can’t fully grasp/understand that.
Sam
Apostates can be very emotionally charged by their feelings of betrayal and hurt of their religious experiences and tend to be fairly outspoken about it while their pain is still raw and especially if they used to believe strongly.
This makes it uncomfortable for everyone that hasn’t experienced that turmoil and can’t connect with that anger, frustration and sadness or feel they over step lines due to their emotions. Even other atheists who may somewhat agreed, but may not have the anger or hurt that drives them to an extreme that an apostate may start at while at the deepest level of hurt.
While more mild apostates might be difficult to understand by both sides just because they don’t seem hurt or all that bothered by the loss of what many people find gives them a sense of security, safety and comfort.
BBCC
That token protest is very important to Becky and Sarah’s relationship.
And oh, Becky. You’ll find out sometime, but probably not now.
BBCC
Congrats to our American friends right now <3
Daniel M Ball
thank you for that, BBCC, but it may be premature, just because we haven’t burned the whole country down in political rioting yet, doesn’t mean we’re not going to as soon as the states actually finish the recounts and the court-case gets (Predictably) tossed out because the plaintiff is demanding something not only illegal, but also impossible. Save the congrats until December at the EARLIEST. This year’s been so acrimonious and nasty doesn’t mean the hilarity’s over with, it just means there’s a pause and some pundits are being smug while thinking this will prevent people from outright losing their shit in public.
Leorale
Thank you so much! I was teaching liberal 3rd Graders on zoom at the time, and it was SO exciting.
@daniel if it’s any consolation, my partner has been taking one for the team by consuming conservative media all week, and they AREN’T doing the thing where they undermine the election or call for action or organize anyone against the election results. The media isn’t fanning flames, which would’ve been necessary for an all-out Civil Freakout. Like, the trumpers are sad, they might do some disorganized domestic terrorism (hopefully not) but the threat to the country as a whole is really unlikely now. Deep, deep sigh of relief over here.
Regalli
Appreciated. The exchange of power may be… interesting, but it cannot possibly hurt that Biden is now the one with the formal legal backing. And that Trump’s burned his goodwill with most judges and the Secret Service, and I’m pretty sure sizable sectors of the intelligence and military branches (at least the higher-ups.) And that he’s been so egregiously out of line even the media and Republican party writ large are starting to jump ship, meaning they will not openly advocate for violence or a coup.
Yes, this is basically the lowest possible bar for such things, but here we fucking are.
thejeff
No formal legal backing at this point. Most states haven’t certified, electors haven’t voted, etc.
The media calls give him the perception of legitimacy, which may be more important. Those norms and traditions that everyone keeps talking about. Which even rolls through into some of the mechanics of transition happening, despite Trump: Secret Service has bumped up the protection he gets, he’s been getting at least some of the formal briefings.
It certainly doesn’t hurt that in the end it wasn’t really at all close. A big popular vote lead and solid leads in enough states that even if legal challenges (or some of the worse shenanigans) flipped one of them, he’d still win.
Bagge
To me, this seems like a very underhand and… Becky way of saying “talk to someone because I think you need to takl to someone”
StClair
Yup. Panel 3, I figured she was just doing her usual poking about making Joyce pick her real best friend, but panel 4 made me feel better, ’cause it’s plainly more than that.
Kensou
Using self-awareness of her jealousy issues to mask gratitude that Joyce has someone she can confide in, or genuinely glad that someone else is affectionately messing with her?
Both. Both is correct.
aelfwine
Wouldn’t her comment about Dorothy be pressure to Joyce to *not* discuss it with Dorothy, as she’d then be seen as hurting Becky’s feelings?
Sorry but I think Becky’s still being a self-centered asshole, who’s putting her petty games over her friend’s wellbeing.
thejeff
Maybe, but following it with the comment about Sarah shifts it back in the other direction.
NotPiffany
Becky wants Joyce to talk to someone. It’s just that if that “someone” isn’t going to be here, she’d rather it be Sarah (the big sister) than Dorothy (one of Joyce’s girl-crushes).
NotPiffany
Drat. “Her,” not “here.” Stupid lack of an edit button.
Deanatay
Does she need a gardener, a plumber, or a pool boy?
(Sorry, you said she needs to takl to someone, so I came up with the three home services that are most likely euphemisms for getting laid)
Rabid Rabbit
Christ, Becky. Just because you enjoy nuking things from orbit doesn’t mean that everyone does. Let her find her own pace, dammit.
StClair
I would agree, except that I suspect that Joyce’s preferred pace would be to keep pretending and denying as long as she possibly can, hurting herself and maybe others in the process.
Kensou
Remember the Toenail!
clif
Sorry. I’m not sure I can remember the Toenail and the Alamo at the same time.
Andy
And then there’s the Titans, too. It’s just a bit much to remember.
Needfuldoer
Remember the 21st night of September.
We’re gonna have to recruit Pepperidge Farm to help us with all this remembering…
He Who Abides
You’d better, or else you’ll never “Remember Me”.
thejeff
Or, for something much more obscure: “Remember Tunnel 17!”
thejeff
“Remember, remember, the 5th of November…”
Needfuldoer
That’s not how the Earth, Wind, and Fire song goes…
a/snow/mous/e
and also Walky’s
and mine tbh
JetstreamGW