I commuted and was the first one up and home around when everyone was going to bed – evening and night classes – Thank the deities of scheduling I didn’t have to interact with family back then.
I finished early enough on Fridays to get into The Blind Duck – Quonset Hut lunch counter cum pub between the two campus buildings – before they did door charges for the band – never got kicked – still ended up home sometime on a Saturday. I think I got a BSc …..
Dina strongly references the support for feathered/fluffy dinosaurs. (not all were, but some definitely were). So if he’s not a scaley, might he still be feathery? Feathered boa’s would seem to establish a precident for that.
I have a vague recollection that he hit on her, the subtext went over her head, and he didn’t push it. I can’t recall specifics, though; I might be thinking of something else entirely.
Well, she did get a donut, so she probably was on the list. I think it happened off-panel, and then Dina was clearly in a relationship with Becky. And given his experiences I really doubt Joe is the type to make a move on someone he knows is in a relationship.
JustAName
I don’t think that’s enough evidence to assume he actually made a move. Those donuts seemed more like a general apologetic gesture to the female dorm population, and Dina probably went for it because it was a free donut. It’s not like there was any strict ‘only donuts if you’re on the list’ verification policy.
MacareuxMoine
She approached the table from behind him. There is a good chance he wasn’t even aware of her being there. There is also a good chance he wasn’t ever aware of her being around.
Hell, even our main characters said something similar (not as judgy and rude, but still infantilizing) about how odd the concept of Dina dating was at the room party, right before she and Becky actually became a thing. Dina then pointed out that she found it insulting and offensive, and everyone’s laid off it since. (Sarah still had the occasional strip about how odd it was Dina doesn’t use contractions or the like, and I think they all expressed surprise Dina was one of the oldest in the cast, but Dina doesn’t express offense about either of those. I suspect the latter was also focused on her LOOKING young, not acting young, where Raidah and the room party both included focus on her behavior.)
thejeff
To be fair to all of them, both Dina’s looks and behavior were coded as very young, especially early on. That’s changed as she’s become better at socializing.
Think especially of her bit with Riley, where she was surprised Riley was 12 and Riley was surprised she wasn’t.
Regalli
Sure, but she hasn’t actually changed the core of her interests or tastes since. Hell, she will still infodump about dinosaurs given an opportunity/during a fight sequence, and Dorothy and Joyce did just throw cereal at her for the extended Jurassic Park joke so it is still her favorite food. Sarah was one of the ones agreeing that Becky ‘putting the moves on Dina’ was weird, and she’s the one who saw Dina awkwardly infodump at Raidah and Raidah immediately ask if she was in middle school, before pivoting to ‘mentally challenged’ and the infantilizing. Which Dina clearly found insulting, and expressed to Sarah. She’s a bit better with social situations, but her social awkwardness wasn’t what you’d really expect from a neurotypical 12-year-old.
I don’t hold it against any of the main cast – they are a bunch of 18-year-olds, after all, and Joyce apologized for the ‘looks and acts like she’s twelve’ line immediately after Dina explained it while Dorothy had her ‘Huzzah!’ (Sarah didn’t onscreen, to my knowledge, but I’m pretty sure there was something offscreen given how often the two of them interact one-on-one.) It wasn’t done without malice. But it was infantilizing, and it was infantilization explicitly based in Dina’s social discomfort… and the fact that she’s not neurotypical, and makes no effort to mask that. That attitude happens in real life, a lot, and is kind of a hot button issue for me because even my (compassionate, generally with-it and respectful of me) family have fallen into it before. Hell, in the comments of that sequence, there was someone hoping Dina wouldn’t date because she reminded them of their autistic child, and said something about ‘innocence’ or the like. It was EXTREMELY uncomfortable! That it was done without malice doesn’t make it not ableist.
thejeff
It’s definitely infantilizing and I’d say it’s especially bad when it comes from people who know her well enough to know how old she is and that she’s in college on her own – which is all the other girls on the floor and wasn’t Raidah and her cronies.
Their statements were worse, but the context around them was better.
Regalli
The first moment of Raidah asking if she was a middle-schooler was better, yeah. At a mall, it was semi-plausible for Sarah to have someone she introduced as a friend who was more a mentor-mentee relationship or something. (I forgot how bad Joyce’s comment was before checking for that second, but I’m glad she was the one who gave the full apology and hasn’t made comments since.) Every other comment in the Raidah and posse exchange? Went from ‘honest mistake’ or ‘screwed up, but immediate and sincere apology’ to ‘very revealing of your opinions about the neurodivergent, because you are still doubling down on this.’
There’s a reason I bring up the party scene – it sucks, and it’s a conscious point of that scene that even our protagonists (including DOROTHY) aren’t immune to ableism regarding Dina. But the difference between Char using the R-word and she and Chan laughing, and the way Raidah treats her? Is mostly one of tone. Dina sums it up when she volunteers to spy at the start of the Jacob Matter by saying ‘She was not kind to me, though I imagine she thought that she was.’ Raidah calls out the blatant insults, but she still insults Dina with the ‘mentally challenged’ line right in front of her (in a way where she isn’t concerned Dina is right there and can hear her,) and then kneels down and talks to her like she’s a small child. (‘Do you understand?’) Sarah had already called Dina a friend who was their age, which means it’s way more likely she’s a fellow college student. The line at the party aside, Joyce consistently treats Dina like a peer. Raidah didn’t intend it as an insult, but she doesn’t respect Dina or consider her competent enough to be insulted. (Consider how she treats Joyce, who she has very little respect for but still acknowledges as a peer on some level. The pizza lunch is full of subtle insults, but never anything to her face.)
Those comics have no “step” in it, believe you me.
thejeff
To be honest the whole “step” thing is weird to me. Is that really a specific thing for people or just a label to slap on it so the creators can pretend it’s not really an incest fantasy?
Regalli
Pretty sure it’s the latter, mostly. Also why you get series with ‘we’re adopted siblings, so it’s fine!’ Barf, so much barf.
Sometimes. Other times it’s used in order to allow the work to explore the relationship between two people who’ve grown up together. Similar to, but also with some major differences from, the “childhood friends” theme.
I mean, they apparently spent some portion of winter break in the same place for an extended period of time. With their newlywed parents, at least one of whom has a serious boundaries and appropriateness issue.
I too would be a bit… preoccupied with things other than the reality of that house at that time.
(Joe’s hair actually changed pre-timeskip to the tousled look. Evidently post-Malaya Slipshine he decided he liked the look? And Willis liked changing out characters’ hairstyles since a lot of them had been so close to the head and perfectly round/rectangular. Joe, Danny, and Walky on the rectangle side, Ethan, Leslie, Dorothy and Amber over on the round one. Finally, it’s free from its confines! Danny might still have a pretty flat hairdo judging from silhouettes, but that’s okay because he’s Wonderbread.)
Yeah, it’d be awkward if she became his stepdaughter later.
(I still haven’t settled if in my headcanon where Joe’s dad is actually Joe from the future is he literally his own father or did he simply assume his father’s identity.)
So Amber has a mix of Amber and AmaziGirl hair, with a dash of crazed cavewoman to top it all off. That bodes well. No craziness in that head waiting to escape and stab another person (again).
Okay that implication about craziness is just… so deeply ableist, I probably don’t have the cycles or spoons to get into it, but I’ll just focus on a main point.
Both times we’ve ever seen Amber stab someone, EVER, were in actively traumatic, ongoing situations. (She obviously shouldn’t have blamed Sal, who was a distant second in the traumatizing people in that moment, but Blaine was continuing to berate her over witnessing an attempted holdup, so I consider that situation ongoing!) The first was after being goaded into it and having a momentary breakdown. She was horrified by her potential for violence afterwards, justified it to herself for some time by painting Sal as her personal supervillain, and made peace with Sal (as did AG, separately) after realizing she was wrong. The second was in response to a very real threat to herself, her friends, and frankly everyone in that dorm. She evidently stabbed Ryan far more times than necessary, but was still considered acting in self-defense. In the aftermath she was, again, horrified by her potential for violence afterwards, and justified it by painting HERSELF as the monster AG was made to and failed to keep in check.
Amber has never stabbed someone outside a deeply traumatic situation. Amber does not WANT to stab another person again if it is even remotely avoidable. Amber is, at the moment, showing body language and grunts of ‘not really paying much attention, focusing on phone and resigned to All This.’ That’s not even how she or AG act when they need to fight something. It comes off more as ‘exhausted introvert ready to have a conscientious roommate again.’
Furthermore, the belief that mentally ill and neurodivergent people (especially those with DID) are inherently violent and have craziness ‘waiting to escape’ is both demonstrably false – we’re statistically far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators – and deeply harmful to us, as it justifies a lot of that fear and violence and perpetuates an idea that the Scary Violent Craziness is immutable, stigmatizing people with the condition and making them less likely to seek or find competent mental health support.
This may or may not be coherent in the morning, it’s 1 AM, but that is just… REALLY gross, in its implications.
Started on the basic character bit and went ‘no actually, I DO have the brain energy to do the Perpetuating Dangerous Stereotypes part tonight so someone else doesn’t have to.’ Glad to be helpful there.
228 thoughts on “Guarantees”
Ana Chronistic
not awkward, no
at least Joe has a leg up on Saiba Asahi hurr hurr
Ana Chronistic
actually, alt-text, Mike meant I forgot to be worried
vlademir1
Something something… Geoff Thew… something… rule D…
Chris
When my parents sent me off to college, my dad just told me, “Have fun, don’t get caught.”
Liliet
Beautiful
FacelessDeviant
Mine just said “Don’t do anything we wouldn’t do”. So I have a pretty wide wiggle area.
Morleuca
heehee “wiggle”
anonymousethatscurriesinthedarkness
I commuted and was the first one up and home around when everyone was going to bed – evening and night classes – Thank the deities of scheduling I didn’t have to interact with family back then.
I finished early enough on Fridays to get into The Blind Duck – Quonset Hut lunch counter cum pub between the two campus buildings – before they did door charges for the band – never got kicked – still ended up home sometime on a Saturday. I think I got a BSc …..
BBCC
Hrngh indeed.
But congrats on being step siblings now, you two!
Nono
Hey now, I’m reasonably sure Joe has never tried to bang Dina.
tim gueguen
“Wait, you’re telling me that’s a chick?”
Nick
Dina will eventually evolve into a chick in about 65 million years.
Lumino
Joe isn’t a scaly.
a/snow/mous/e
pffft
Captain Oblivious
Dina strongly references the support for feathered/fluffy dinosaurs. (not all were, but some definitely were). So if he’s not a scaley, might he still be feathery? Feathered boa’s would seem to establish a precident for that.
TheKelliestKelly
What happens in the time skip stays in the time skip
Raen
I have a vague recollection that he hit on her, the subtext went over her head, and he didn’t push it. I can’t recall specifics, though; I might be thinking of something else entirely.
drs
They have all of six strips together and I don’t see it. https://www.dumbingofage.com/tag/joe+dina/
Sunny
Well, she did get a donut, so she probably was on the list. I think it happened off-panel, and then Dina was clearly in a relationship with Becky. And given his experiences I really doubt Joe is the type to make a move on someone he knows is in a relationship.
JustAName
I don’t think that’s enough evidence to assume he actually made a move. Those donuts seemed more like a general apologetic gesture to the female dorm population, and Dina probably went for it because it was a free donut. It’s not like there was any strict ‘only donuts if you’re on the list’ verification policy.
MacareuxMoine
She approached the table from behind him. There is a good chance he wasn’t even aware of her being there. There is also a good chance he wasn’t ever aware of her being around.
C.T Phipps
My entry for horrible Joeism:
“Don’t be disgusting, I don’t bang KIDS.”
a/snow/mous/e
oof. reminds me of Raidah and her posse
Regalli
Hell, even our main characters said something similar (not as judgy and rude, but still infantilizing) about how odd the concept of Dina dating was at the room party, right before she and Becky actually became a thing. Dina then pointed out that she found it insulting and offensive, and everyone’s laid off it since. (Sarah still had the occasional strip about how odd it was Dina doesn’t use contractions or the like, and I think they all expressed surprise Dina was one of the oldest in the cast, but Dina doesn’t express offense about either of those. I suspect the latter was also focused on her LOOKING young, not acting young, where Raidah and the room party both included focus on her behavior.)
thejeff
To be fair to all of them, both Dina’s looks and behavior were coded as very young, especially early on. That’s changed as she’s become better at socializing.
Think especially of her bit with Riley, where she was surprised Riley was 12 and Riley was surprised she wasn’t.
Regalli
Sure, but she hasn’t actually changed the core of her interests or tastes since. Hell, she will still infodump about dinosaurs given an opportunity/during a fight sequence, and Dorothy and Joyce did just throw cereal at her for the extended Jurassic Park joke so it is still her favorite food. Sarah was one of the ones agreeing that Becky ‘putting the moves on Dina’ was weird, and she’s the one who saw Dina awkwardly infodump at Raidah and Raidah immediately ask if she was in middle school, before pivoting to ‘mentally challenged’ and the infantilizing. Which Dina clearly found insulting, and expressed to Sarah. She’s a bit better with social situations, but her social awkwardness wasn’t what you’d really expect from a neurotypical 12-year-old.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/safe-2/ And the strip following, I’m not linking the Raidah one or I will scream forever.
I don’t hold it against any of the main cast – they are a bunch of 18-year-olds, after all, and Joyce apologized for the ‘looks and acts like she’s twelve’ line immediately after Dina explained it while Dorothy had her ‘Huzzah!’ (Sarah didn’t onscreen, to my knowledge, but I’m pretty sure there was something offscreen given how often the two of them interact one-on-one.) It wasn’t done without malice. But it was infantilizing, and it was infantilization explicitly based in Dina’s social discomfort… and the fact that she’s not neurotypical, and makes no effort to mask that. That attitude happens in real life, a lot, and is kind of a hot button issue for me because even my (compassionate, generally with-it and respectful of me) family have fallen into it before. Hell, in the comments of that sequence, there was someone hoping Dina wouldn’t date because she reminded them of their autistic child, and said something about ‘innocence’ or the like. It was EXTREMELY uncomfortable! That it was done without malice doesn’t make it not ableist.
thejeff
It’s definitely infantilizing and I’d say it’s especially bad when it comes from people who know her well enough to know how old she is and that she’s in college on her own – which is all the other girls on the floor and wasn’t Raidah and her cronies.
Their statements were worse, but the context around them was better.
Regalli
The first moment of Raidah asking if she was a middle-schooler was better, yeah. At a mall, it was semi-plausible for Sarah to have someone she introduced as a friend who was more a mentor-mentee relationship or something. (I forgot how bad Joyce’s comment was before checking for that second, but I’m glad she was the one who gave the full apology and hasn’t made comments since.) Every other comment in the Raidah and posse exchange? Went from ‘honest mistake’ or ‘screwed up, but immediate and sincere apology’ to ‘very revealing of your opinions about the neurodivergent, because you are still doubling down on this.’
There’s a reason I bring up the party scene – it sucks, and it’s a conscious point of that scene that even our protagonists (including DOROTHY) aren’t immune to ableism regarding Dina. But the difference between Char using the R-word and she and Chan laughing, and the way Raidah treats her? Is mostly one of tone. Dina sums it up when she volunteers to spy at the start of the Jacob Matter by saying ‘She was not kind to me, though I imagine she thought that she was.’ Raidah calls out the blatant insults, but she still insults Dina with the ‘mentally challenged’ line right in front of her (in a way where she isn’t concerned Dina is right there and can hear her,) and then kneels down and talks to her like she’s a small child. (‘Do you understand?’) Sarah had already called Dina a friend who was their age, which means it’s way more likely she’s a fellow college student. The line at the party aside, Joyce consistently treats Dina like a peer. Raidah didn’t intend it as an insult, but she doesn’t respect Dina or consider her competent enough to be insulted. (Consider how she treats Joyce, who she has very little respect for but still acknowledges as a peer on some level. The pizza lunch is full of subtle insults, but never anything to her face.)
Lawzlo
That was fast.
leaf
But now he’ll never be able to…do much for a completion run of the dorms
leaf
So
Bicycle Bill
Although there’s still a certain amount of “ickkk” factor involved, banging a step-sister is not the same as banging your true sister.
Corneel
There’s a whole genre of “movies” about it even.
Sunny
And so many sexy comics from Japan.
Enkrod
Those comics have no “step” in it, believe you me.
thejeff
To be honest the whole “step” thing is weird to me. Is that really a specific thing for people or just a label to slap on it so the creators can pretend it’s not really an incest fantasy?
Regalli
Pretty sure it’s the latter, mostly. Also why you get series with ‘we’re adopted siblings, so it’s fine!’ Barf, so much barf.
Kamino Neko
Definitely the latter, 99% of the time.
Sunny
Sometimes. Other times it’s used in order to allow the work to explore the relationship between two people who’ve grown up together. Similar to, but also with some major differences from, the “childhood friends” theme.
Opus the Poet
Just look for the “gay cooking” tag on Yuri-ism.
Especially if you want some interesting new recipes. Provided you have metric measuring tools.
Keulen
They’re not biologically related, but I’m still kinda glad Joe never tried to get with Amber.
Needfuldoer
He would have met his demise.
By snu-snu.
Michael L
Cpt_America_I_understood_that_reference.gif
Liliet
Hey, a sister is automatically excluded.
FacelessDeviant
He’ll never get all the achievement trophies for his steam wall!
He wont be a Completionist
Sirksome
So over the skip Joe forgot how to condition his hair and Amber has learned a new language consisting of annoyed grunts.
woobie
D’oh!
Regalli
I mean, they apparently spent some portion of winter break in the same place for an extended period of time. With their newlywed parents, at least one of whom has a serious boundaries and appropriateness issue.
I too would be a bit… preoccupied with things other than the reality of that house at that time.
(Joe’s hair actually changed pre-timeskip to the tousled look. Evidently post-Malaya Slipshine he decided he liked the look? And Willis liked changing out characters’ hairstyles since a lot of them had been so close to the head and perfectly round/rectangular. Joe, Danny, and Walky on the rectangle side, Ethan, Leslie, Dorothy and Amber over on the round one. Finally, it’s free from its confines! Danny might still have a pretty flat hairdo judging from silhouettes, but that’s okay because he’s Wonderbread.)
Spencer
What if she was hanging out with Beef a whole lot.
Cattleprod
Yeah, it’d be awkward if she became his stepdaughter later.
(I still haven’t settled if in my headcanon where Joe’s dad is actually Joe from the future is he literally his own father or did he simply assume his father’s identity.)
Axel
so he did the nasty in the pasty?!
Agemegos
A Cornish re-make of American Pie?
Captain Oblivious
They were all pretty corn-ish.
Rose by Any Other Name
Now I’m picturing Joe and his dad going on drunken time travel adventures.
drs
“Dad… I am your father.”
“Nooo… wait, sweet! Good job, son!”
Roborat
Oooh, someone watched Red Dwarf.
RowenMorland
Maybe Shortpacked Joe having escaped the soggies came to the DoA universe and raised that Joe.
synnerman
Yay Amber!! This makes me feel unreasonably happy. Enh, it’s just the anxiety.
Delicious Taffy
Like being stepsiblings has stopped people flooding the front page of A Certain Website.
Needfuldoer
[Text starts scrolling from right to left very slowly near the top of the screen:]
THIS COMIC WAS UPLOADED TO http://WWW.DUMBINGOFAGE.COM
Kyrik Michalowski
I’m glad to see that Amber is indeed returning and she has a new brother, who might be equally as annoying as her first brother.
All that said, Joe did you really need to add that?
Mydnyt
He’s Joe so… I’m gonna go with yes he most certainly did
Lingo
Joe continues to illustrate the difference between the family you choose and the family you’re stuck with.
Captain Oblivious
even if you’re loose
not family you fuck with.
Stephen Bierce
Stay good Amber! No Step-Fratricide. This isn’t “justifiable”. Yet.
Mra
I guess that means they officially tied the knot?
I wonder how long it will take Ms. Walkerton to find out Amber hasn’t dropped out.
Schpoonman
Dammit, Joe.
Dr T
So Amber has a mix of Amber and AmaziGirl hair, with a dash of crazed cavewoman to top it all off. That bodes well. No craziness in that head waiting to escape and stab another person (again).
Regalli
Okay that implication about craziness is just… so deeply ableist, I probably don’t have the cycles or spoons to get into it, but I’ll just focus on a main point.
Both times we’ve ever seen Amber stab someone, EVER, were in actively traumatic, ongoing situations. (She obviously shouldn’t have blamed Sal, who was a distant second in the traumatizing people in that moment, but Blaine was continuing to berate her over witnessing an attempted holdup, so I consider that situation ongoing!) The first was after being goaded into it and having a momentary breakdown. She was horrified by her potential for violence afterwards, justified it to herself for some time by painting Sal as her personal supervillain, and made peace with Sal (as did AG, separately) after realizing she was wrong. The second was in response to a very real threat to herself, her friends, and frankly everyone in that dorm. She evidently stabbed Ryan far more times than necessary, but was still considered acting in self-defense. In the aftermath she was, again, horrified by her potential for violence afterwards, and justified it by painting HERSELF as the monster AG was made to and failed to keep in check.
Amber has never stabbed someone outside a deeply traumatic situation. Amber does not WANT to stab another person again if it is even remotely avoidable. Amber is, at the moment, showing body language and grunts of ‘not really paying much attention, focusing on phone and resigned to All This.’ That’s not even how she or AG act when they need to fight something. It comes off more as ‘exhausted introvert ready to have a conscientious roommate again.’
Furthermore, the belief that mentally ill and neurodivergent people (especially those with DID) are inherently violent and have craziness ‘waiting to escape’ is both demonstrably false – we’re statistically far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators – and deeply harmful to us, as it justifies a lot of that fear and violence and perpetuates an idea that the Scary Violent Craziness is immutable, stigmatizing people with the condition and making them less likely to seek or find competent mental health support.
This may or may not be coherent in the morning, it’s 1 AM, but that is just… REALLY gross, in its implications.
TheKelliestKelly
Thank you, Regalli
Regalli
Started on the basic character bit and went ‘no actually, I DO have the brain energy to do the Perpetuating Dangerous Stereotypes part tonight so someone else doesn’t have to.’ Glad to be helpful there.
Norah