Sorry, didn’t mean to flag (stupid phone, stupid sausage fingers) I wanted to say “that’s some serious hostage situation” but now I feel it wasn’t worth the “accusation” :’v
thakoru
This is your regular reminder that accidental flagging is fine and not worthy of freaking out; it takes a whole bunch of flags for a post to get removed, and no one can tell in the meantime.
Yoder of Kansas
Honestly feel like the flagging thing should be in the about/read before posting page, with a note to stop apologizing for hitting the wrong button.
I suspect she needs human contact, and this is an acceptible way for her to get it. I’m sure Becky would be glad to hold hands with her as long as Dina was there to chaperone. I’m also sure there are others on her floor she would be willing to hold hands with for a second or two, but it’s hard to get as much human touch as she needs like that.
Sounds right. If I were Joyce I would really need a hug right now… from someone who will have 0 psychoanalytical commentary on what that means about my neurotype.
Right now, Joe is the perfect overlap of someone willing to touch her and unwilling to do either teasing or speculation.
Bet y’all can’t wait before they kick it into overdrive ?
But for reals, while stands are really cool, I think Hamon has a lot of untapped potential as a hard magic system.
Also I really want to see what would happen if a pillar man made it into the 21st century.
DailyBrad
Well, one did. Kind of. Just, not on Earth anymore. 😛
The Oracle
What about Santviento/Santana? I don’t remember if he was ever fully finished off.
Sajuuk-Khar
He absolutely wasn’t, he’s still stuck in that one fragment of his body under UV light at the Speedwagon Foundation, AFAIK
Although he might not have made it through Stone Ocean events
Smatterguy
Wait jojo isn’t already inoverdrive?(anime only watcher btw).
Speaking of hamon, I heard that the reason Araki switched from hamon to stands is that he felt he had run out of ways of using it creativly. He felt constrained by it being the main powersystem.
Smallmoon
he did, however, sort of double down on the vibe, since he introduced ‘Spin” in addition to Stands in Steel Ball Run, then basically abandoned it in JoJolion (Just Like Hamon fell by the wayside when Stands were introduced.)
Wereg
The Spin is present throughout all of Part 8, technically.
I confess, I rather miss simple slash-naming. But I suppose that was either too linked with certain old (and mostly gay, because fandom) pairings, or was too transparent and easy-to-understand, and thus didn’t appeal to those who prefer knowledge of the Secret Words to be strictly an insider thing (again, because fandom).
Cass
I’ll still always go with slashes over anything else, but I think a good part of them dying out was just social media platforms that didn’t support using the / in tagging
StClair
huh, I didn’t consider the role of technology (and the limitations thereof) in common use at the time(s). interesting possibility to think about, thank you.
pig
Honestly, same. I don’t like ship names that are incomprehensible unless you spend a lot of time in the fandom. Usually name portmanteaus can be worked out, but good ol’ A/B or A x B is my preferred format.
StClair
Again, that is IMO a good part of the reason they exist. Fandom(s) LOVE their Sekrit Inside Jokes/References/Jargon/Knowledge that only TRUE fans get. In-groups and out-groups and tribalism, yo.
That was something I liked about Homestuck shipping names because they were usually pretty clever and consistent to a given character’s aesthetic, like “Cotton Candy,” or “Spider 8reath.” I usually only ever saw them used on forums and tumblr blogs though, never on the usual fanfiction websites. Maybe that’s because of the in-group/out-group incomprehensibility problem that Pig and StClair mention, though.
I reckon that getting diagnosed when you’re older is really the lesser of two evils.
If you were diagnosed as a kid back in the late 90’s or early 2000’s, insidious ableism meant that people around you could have denied your autonomy, gaslit you, dehumanized you and subjected you to all kinds of severe indignities, some of which basically amount to legal torture.
But I suppose either way, life never gets any easier for us autistics, does it? ?
Yeah, I came to a realization that it’s not about whether or not you’re autistic, but rather about being in a place where you’re not punished for it.
I am very grateful to Willis and his fans for creating such a place in this little corner of the online world. Here I can safely have a private label for myself, despite the great amount of time and effort it will take to change a broken system. ?
I think that’s because most of the people here are ND of some kind or multiple kinds. Personally I’m probably a little autistic, have a TBI, and more than 4 almost 5 decades of untreated PTSD.
Laura
Here’s hoping you find treatment or other care with the PTSD, Opus. We care about you.
It’s a blessing- and the result of a mountain of hard work done mostly by other autistic people- that some children these days don’t get systemically abused for it.
And until that’s every child, fuck ABA and other conversion therapies that would literally-literally be illegal if you treated a dog like that, fuck “autism mommies”, fuck every mental health professional whose knowledge is rooted in having read one book thirty years ago and refuses to update it before treating someone, and may every member of Autism Speaks step on a flaming bag of dog shit and incinerate themselves.
I’m not really up on the latest information— I was just wondering, could you please help me understand what ABA is and why it is bad?
My younger cousin is on the autism spectrum and derived real benefit from a friendship with a woman who was an ABA therapist. I don’t know whether she used any ABA techniques on my cousin. But she did serve as a peer supporter and life coach for my cousin, and seemed to draw some insight from her work. But I don’t have any firsthand knowledge of it.
I’m also not clear what is meant by “autism mommies”. Could someone please enlighten me?
I’ve spent a lot of time caring for my cousin in loco parentis, and I don’t want to inadvertently slip into being an autism mom if that’s something bad.
Thank you for helping me to learn more!
Laura
Ok, no, never mind, I’m sorry — I should have just done the research myself rather than asking folks to do the work of educating me on such a sensitive and painful topic. I sincerely apologize.
Looks like many criticize ABA because it has often been done in punitive and controlling ways. And folks criticize the mothers of people with autism who wear their children’s diagnoses as a badge. I hope I got that right…
There’s a lot I don’t know. Especially when it comes to social commentary and trends in society. I am truly sorry for causing offense with my question.
Thank you for your understanding and patience!
thakoru
So, ABA stands for Applied Behavioral Analysis, and it’s essentially conversion therapy for autistic kids. It was developed by the same guy and uses a lot of same techniques. The core idea behind it is using operant conditioning to develop more “normal” or “functional” behaviors in the patient. At it’s best, it can help autistic people integrate better into neurotypical society – by teaching/programming them to constantly mask and never express or acknowledge their needs. At it’s worst, it involves using literal shock collars to punish its “patients” for deviant behavior. And while that extreme is rare, other abusive tactics, such as withholding basic necessities as a means of negative reinforcement, are fairly common. It’s ethical guidelines are worded broadly and ambiguously, there’s very little oversight, its actual goal is fundamentally misguided – and it’s the most common and well-known therapy for autistic people, particularly autistic children. It’s promoted by a lot of well funded groups like Autism Speaks (which is considered by many autistic people to be a hate group) and so a lot of poorly informed parents end up putting their kids in it and traumatizing those kids for life.
“Autism mommies” in this context probably refers to… well, the type of parent who’s likely to send their kid to ABA. Parents who see having an autistic kid primarily as a burden, who would rather their kid be “normal” than happy, who claim to speak for autistic people while consistently ignoring and talking over us. They’re the kind of people who post videos of their kids having a meltdown for pity and clout, because their child’s suffering is less important to them than how it might affect their social status. They have a frustrating amount of resources and clout (again, via Autism Speaks and similar groups), and they end up drawing a lot of resources and attention away from actual advocacy for and by autistic people while reinforcing systemic abuse and mistreatment of autistic people.
ischemgeek
Autism mommies refers specifically to the kind of martyr parent (usually a mom because of gendered childrearing expectations) who acts like their child’s autism is a grand tragedy inflicted on the parent in particular and makes it their mission to cure or reverse the autism at all costs. Many of them blog for attention and validation of their beliefs and behavior, and a significant portion of them engage in and promote abusive behaviors that would get you investigated by CPS in a hurry if the kid(s) were NT (I am talking giving your kids bleach solutions or tying your child up much of the day or openly fantasizing about murder suicide) but which are brushed off as understandable and “due to a lack of services” if the child is autistic. Look up the Stapleton woman who tried to kill her autistic daughter for a prime example.
The autistic community generally holds autism mommies responsible for the “autism community”‘s general refusal to abide by best practices in disability movements (namely, involving people with the disability in real positions of power and responsibility at all levels and genuinely listening to their input – Autism Speaks has literally 0 autistic senior leaders. 0. Because it was started by the O.G. autism mommy and her husband), society’s general attitude that murdering an autistic person is somehow understandable or justifiable (read any story about a murdered autistic kid and you’re lucky to find a single paragraph about the kid but you’ll find 90%of the story is spent painting the murderer as a victim), and the abuse their children suffer in the name of normal.
ischemgeek
Sorry, for clarity: that’s what autistic people refer to when we use the term.
Autism mommies use it to refer to all parents of autistic people to try to muddy the waters, when a substantial and growing amount of those parents don’t want anything to do with treating their kids like a burden who only deserves love in small doses as a reward for being normal, conditional entirely on making their parents look good.
ischemgeek
Addendum: a typical parent who uses ABA would not be considered an “autism mommy” by most of the autistic community. There’s a specific constellation of behavior and attitudes needed to earn that derisive moniker: making a big and constant attention seeking show of their own martyrdom, scapegoating their autistic child(ren) for anything wrong in the family, and a drive to make their kid normal at all costs or die trying (sometimes that latter part is meant literally).
A typical parent of an autistic kid might fall down the forced normal rabbit hole because ABA’s marketing is fantastic for something known to cause PTSD and long term mental health issues with an efficacy equal to or worse than placebo depending on the study, but usually won’t have the attention seeking, scapegoating, or willingness to go to extremes and harm their child to achieve their ends.
It’s alright ischemgeek, it was eventually gonna happen anyway, given the nature of this very comic.
Speaking of which, if Dumbing of Age is at all gonna take the topic of autism seriously, it has to cover ABA and autism mommies and Autism Speaks, we really need to do whatever we can to fight these grave injustices unto us.
Laura
TW:
Thank you for explaining it to me, ischemgeek. I had read about that, about the prevalence of filicide, but I didn’t know the term. I am so sorry to have brought up such a painful topic. How awful.
255 thoughts on “Hanging”
Ana Chronistic
“ok I didn’t LITERALLY mean hang”
Doctor_Who
High five!
Up high!
Down low!
(kiss Joe)
Decidedly Orthogonal
High five!
Up high!
Down low!
These fingers are MINE now!
Hilen
Sorry, didn’t mean to flag (stupid phone, stupid sausage fingers) I wanted to say “that’s some serious hostage situation” but now I feel it wasn’t worth the “accusation” :’v
thakoru
This is your regular reminder that accidental flagging is fine and not worthy of freaking out; it takes a whole bunch of flags for a post to get removed, and no one can tell in the meantime.
Yoder of Kansas
Honestly feel like the flagging thing should be in the about/read before posting page, with a note to stop apologizing for hitting the wrong button.
Cmasta1992
M. Bison: YES YES
Rose by Any Other Name
Mr. Burns: Excellent…
Yotomoe
Violet, Lee Chaolan from Tekken’s alternate ego: EXCELLENT!
Harmony
Announcer from Unreal Tournament: WICKED SICK
Jon
Yeah, that’s why. It’s because she’s bad at high-fiving. Not like she wants to hold Joe’s hand at all, or anything…
Opus the Poet
I suspect she needs human contact, and this is an acceptible way for her to get it. I’m sure Becky would be glad to hold hands with her as long as Dina was there to chaperone. I’m also sure there are others on her floor she would be willing to hold hands with for a second or two, but it’s hard to get as much human touch as she needs like that.
Liliet
Sounds right. If I were Joyce I would really need a hug right now… from someone who will have 0 psychoanalytical commentary on what that means about my neurotype.
Right now, Joe is the perfect overlap of someone willing to touch her and unwilling to do either teasing or speculation.
JepMZ
NANI!!!!!?????
Wraithy2773
And just like that, the USS Jotty took a broadside from-
…
Hrm. Joe and Joyce don’t exactly create an easy Shipping name. Joeyce, maybe?
thakoru
I think I’ve seen “JoJo” floating around.
Kyrik Michalowski
“Yes, this is a JoJo reference!” *proceeds to drink hundreds of gallons of blood*
Supersonic92
VERY enthusiastic ̶w̶a̶l̶k̶s̶ JoJo references
Sajuuk-Khar
SO NO CHI NO SADAMEEEEE
JOOOOOOOOOOOJO
RassilonTDavros
I’m pretty sure Hamon users can increase the surface tension of water, so yeah that checks out.
The Wellerman
Bet y’all can’t wait before they kick it into overdrive ?
But for reals, while stands are really cool, I think Hamon has a lot of untapped potential as a hard magic system.
Also I really want to see what would happen if a pillar man made it into the 21st century.
DailyBrad
Well, one did. Kind of. Just, not on Earth anymore. 😛
The Oracle
What about Santviento/Santana? I don’t remember if he was ever fully finished off.
Sajuuk-Khar
He absolutely wasn’t, he’s still stuck in that one fragment of his body under UV light at the Speedwagon Foundation, AFAIK
Although he might not have made it through Stone Ocean events
Smatterguy
Wait jojo isn’t already inoverdrive?(anime only watcher btw).
Speaking of hamon, I heard that the reason Araki switched from hamon to stands is that he felt he had run out of ways of using it creativly. He felt constrained by it being the main powersystem.
Smallmoon
he did, however, sort of double down on the vibe, since he introduced ‘Spin” in addition to Stands in Steel Ball Run, then basically abandoned it in JoJolion (Just Like Hamon fell by the wayside when Stands were introduced.)
Wereg
The Spin is present throughout all of Part 8, technically.
FlamestAndLight
Haman? BOOOO
Viktoria
This is why we need to go with Young Justice shipname rules. No portmanteaus, just pick something that’s meaningful to the couple.
StClair
I confess, I rather miss simple slash-naming. But I suppose that was either too linked with certain old (and mostly gay, because fandom) pairings, or was too transparent and easy-to-understand, and thus didn’t appeal to those who prefer knowledge of the Secret Words to be strictly an insider thing (again, because fandom).
Cass
I’ll still always go with slashes over anything else, but I think a good part of them dying out was just social media platforms that didn’t support using the / in tagging
StClair
huh, I didn’t consider the role of technology (and the limitations thereof) in common use at the time(s). interesting possibility to think about, thank you.
pig
Honestly, same. I don’t like ship names that are incomprehensible unless you spend a lot of time in the fandom. Usually name portmanteaus can be worked out, but good ol’ A/B or A x B is my preferred format.
StClair
Again, that is IMO a good part of the reason they exist. Fandom(s) LOVE their Sekrit Inside Jokes/References/Jargon/Knowledge that only TRUE fans get. In-groups and out-groups and tribalism, yo.
pig
That is a very good point!
powerpowerpow
I remember these being a thing in the Pokémon fandom as well. It’s what got me into the Adventures manga.
Casi
So face punching by mike, weird ship name, but it works
Songbird
That was something I liked about Homestuck shipping names because they were usually pretty clever and consistent to a given character’s aesthetic, like “Cotton Candy,” or “Spider 8reath.” I usually only ever saw them used on forums and tumblr blogs though, never on the usual fanfiction websites. Maybe that’s because of the in-group/out-group incomprehensibility problem that Pig and StClair mention, though.
Cass
Could go by last names.
I think Joe would appreciate the ship name Brothal, while Joyce would get flaily about how it ends in -al, not -el, so not what you’re thinking.
Or combo last and first names into Rosejoy or Joyrose, which at least makes for a cute combo of words.
Jason
Rosenjoy has a lovely sound to it. I put my vote (which means nothing) on that.
Saida
Joyseph? Assuming Joe is short for Joseph, of course.
Johan
It’s actually Joelene
Heavensrun
JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure.
Reltzik
I’ve seen JoJo and Joeyce.
Needfuldoer
“Joece” works.
Diana Nock
Is she going to break his fingers????
Diana Nock
Okay, but seriously I’ve been waiting for this since their first date. GONNA GET MARRIED~
Sirksome
And aybe it’s Maybelline. I guess we’ll never know.
Joe Moose
Hear that? That’s the sound of ships being made.
Decidedly Orthogonal
These ships were built for hundreds of years, decades even, well ok, A decade. But they’re sturdy, and have carried many a fanon.
Stephen Bierce
*plays David & David’s “Welcome To The Boomtown” on the maybe-hacked-ish Muzak* (If you saw the video, you know why.)
anonymsly
They are so cute oh my god
Puppeteer Nessus
Watch her blame the meds
jeffepp
She hasn’t taken the meds yet. She can blame Dina.
Reltzik
Joe. She’s definitely going to blame Joe.
The Wellerman
I reckon that getting diagnosed when you’re older is really the lesser of two evils.
If you were diagnosed as a kid back in the late 90’s or early 2000’s, insidious ableism meant that people around you could have denied your autonomy, gaslit you, dehumanized you and subjected you to all kinds of severe indignities, some of which basically amount to legal torture.
But I suppose either way, life never gets any easier for us autistics, does it? ?
StClair
I want to acknowledge that you seem to be using that word with a lot more ease now.
The Wellerman
Yeah, I came to a realization that it’s not about whether or not you’re autistic, but rather about being in a place where you’re not punished for it.
I am very grateful to Willis and his fans for creating such a place in this little corner of the online world. Here I can safely have a private label for myself, despite the great amount of time and effort it will take to change a broken system. ?
Opus the Poet
I think that’s because most of the people here are ND of some kind or multiple kinds. Personally I’m probably a little autistic, have a TBI, and
more than 4almost 5 decades of untreated PTSD.Laura
Here’s hoping you find treatment or other care with the PTSD, Opus. We care about you.
not someone else
It’s a blessing- and the result of a mountain of hard work done mostly by other autistic people- that some children these days don’t get systemically abused for it.
And until that’s every child, fuck ABA and other conversion therapies that would literally-literally be illegal if you treated a dog like that, fuck “autism mommies”, fuck every mental health professional whose knowledge is rooted in having read one book thirty years ago and refuses to update it before treating someone, and may every member of Autism Speaks step on a flaming bag of dog shit and incinerate themselves.
The Wellerman
FUCKING RIGHT?!?!?! ? ???
Willis, please implement an upvote system so this comment can be at the top where it deserves.
Laura
Hi,
I’m not really up on the latest information— I was just wondering, could you please help me understand what ABA is and why it is bad?
My younger cousin is on the autism spectrum and derived real benefit from a friendship with a woman who was an ABA therapist. I don’t know whether she used any ABA techniques on my cousin. But she did serve as a peer supporter and life coach for my cousin, and seemed to draw some insight from her work. But I don’t have any firsthand knowledge of it.
I’m also not clear what is meant by “autism mommies”. Could someone please enlighten me?
I’ve spent a lot of time caring for my cousin in loco parentis, and I don’t want to inadvertently slip into being an autism mom if that’s something bad.
Thank you for helping me to learn more!
Laura
Ok, no, never mind, I’m sorry — I should have just done the research myself rather than asking folks to do the work of educating me on such a sensitive and painful topic. I sincerely apologize.
Looks like many criticize ABA because it has often been done in punitive and controlling ways. And folks criticize the mothers of people with autism who wear their children’s diagnoses as a badge. I hope I got that right…
There’s a lot I don’t know. Especially when it comes to social commentary and trends in society. I am truly sorry for causing offense with my question.
Thank you for your understanding and patience!
thakoru
So, ABA stands for Applied Behavioral Analysis, and it’s essentially conversion therapy for autistic kids. It was developed by the same guy and uses a lot of same techniques. The core idea behind it is using operant conditioning to develop more “normal” or “functional” behaviors in the patient. At it’s best, it can help autistic people integrate better into neurotypical society – by teaching/programming them to constantly mask and never express or acknowledge their needs. At it’s worst, it involves using literal shock collars to punish its “patients” for deviant behavior. And while that extreme is rare, other abusive tactics, such as withholding basic necessities as a means of negative reinforcement, are fairly common. It’s ethical guidelines are worded broadly and ambiguously, there’s very little oversight, its actual goal is fundamentally misguided – and it’s the most common and well-known therapy for autistic people, particularly autistic children. It’s promoted by a lot of well funded groups like Autism Speaks (which is considered by many autistic people to be a hate group) and so a lot of poorly informed parents end up putting their kids in it and traumatizing those kids for life.
“Autism mommies” in this context probably refers to… well, the type of parent who’s likely to send their kid to ABA. Parents who see having an autistic kid primarily as a burden, who would rather their kid be “normal” than happy, who claim to speak for autistic people while consistently ignoring and talking over us. They’re the kind of people who post videos of their kids having a meltdown for pity and clout, because their child’s suffering is less important to them than how it might affect their social status. They have a frustrating amount of resources and clout (again, via Autism Speaks and similar groups), and they end up drawing a lot of resources and attention away from actual advocacy for and by autistic people while reinforcing systemic abuse and mistreatment of autistic people.
ischemgeek
Autism mommies refers specifically to the kind of martyr parent (usually a mom because of gendered childrearing expectations) who acts like their child’s autism is a grand tragedy inflicted on the parent in particular and makes it their mission to cure or reverse the autism at all costs. Many of them blog for attention and validation of their beliefs and behavior, and a significant portion of them engage in and promote abusive behaviors that would get you investigated by CPS in a hurry if the kid(s) were NT (I am talking giving your kids bleach solutions or tying your child up much of the day or openly fantasizing about murder suicide) but which are brushed off as understandable and “due to a lack of services” if the child is autistic. Look up the Stapleton woman who tried to kill her autistic daughter for a prime example.
The autistic community generally holds autism mommies responsible for the “autism community”‘s general refusal to abide by best practices in disability movements (namely, involving people with the disability in real positions of power and responsibility at all levels and genuinely listening to their input – Autism Speaks has literally 0 autistic senior leaders. 0. Because it was started by the O.G. autism mommy and her husband), society’s general attitude that murdering an autistic person is somehow understandable or justifiable (read any story about a murdered autistic kid and you’re lucky to find a single paragraph about the kid but you’ll find 90%of the story is spent painting the murderer as a victim), and the abuse their children suffer in the name of normal.
ischemgeek
Sorry, for clarity: that’s what autistic people refer to when we use the term.
Autism mommies use it to refer to all parents of autistic people to try to muddy the waters, when a substantial and growing amount of those parents don’t want anything to do with treating their kids like a burden who only deserves love in small doses as a reward for being normal, conditional entirely on making their parents look good.
ischemgeek
Addendum: a typical parent who uses ABA would not be considered an “autism mommy” by most of the autistic community. There’s a specific constellation of behavior and attitudes needed to earn that derisive moniker: making a big and constant attention seeking show of their own martyrdom, scapegoating their autistic child(ren) for anything wrong in the family, and a drive to make their kid normal at all costs or die trying (sometimes that latter part is meant literally).
A typical parent of an autistic kid might fall down the forced normal rabbit hole because ABA’s marketing is fantastic for something known to cause PTSD and long term mental health issues with an efficacy equal to or worse than placebo depending on the study, but usually won’t have the attention seeking, scapegoating, or willingness to go to extremes and harm their child to achieve their ends.
The Wellerman
At this point, I think calling an “autism mommy” a “mommy” is fucking disgusting.
Also, hai PTSD trigger ???
ischemgeek
Sorry wellerman, should have provided a TW. My bad.
The Wellerman
It’s alright ischemgeek, it was eventually gonna happen anyway, given the nature of this very comic.
Speaking of which, if Dumbing of Age is at all gonna take the topic of autism seriously, it has to cover ABA and autism mommies and Autism Speaks, we really need to do whatever we can to fight these grave injustices unto us.
Laura
TW:
Thank you for explaining it to me, ischemgeek. I had read about that, about the prevalence of filicide, but I didn’t know the term. I am so sorry to have brought up such a painful topic. How awful.