196

Hate sink
Posted on March 28, 2021 by David M Willis
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196 thoughts on “Hate sink”

  1. DarkoNeko

    that is… weird.

    1. C.T Phipps

      I think this is Joe actually just wanting to be Sarah’s friend. It’s just Sarah has hated him since day one.

      1. Rose by Any Other Name

        If so, it is very sweet and also very weird.
        Generally, outside of certain circles, volunteering to be someone’s whipping person is not a route to friendship.

        1. RacingTurtle

          Joe’s first attempt at befriending a woman after the Do List blew up in his face was a conversation with Sarah. I think bothers him that Sarah in particular hates him, possibly because Sarah is one of Joyce’s favorite people, but he knows he earned it. So…sweet and weird, that sounds about right.

        2. Bogeywoman

          Well, maybe not in your fanfictions

        3. Pylgrim

          It also doesn’t work! Offering himself like that is indeed a very thoughtful thing. If Sarah knows that he’s intently doing it to help her, she will not be able to hate him /earnestly/! She’d be losing one of her purest hate grounding poles.

        4. Yet_One_More_Idiot

          Unless if he goes out of his way to be extremely loathsome – which as we all know, is something he’s actually pretty good at already when he really puts his mind to it. Like a Mike-in-training almost. xD

          Also, Sarah in panel 1: What, she has limited and valuable hating resources? That doesn’t sound like our Sarah, I thought her capacity for hate was practically unlimited! xD

        5. Needfuldoer

          Reverse psychology? Now that Joe put “let me be your hate lightning rod” out there, Sarah actually doing that would be taking him up on that favor.

        6. Devin

          I’m not sure how many healthy relationship role models Joe has. He may not actually know that, and I definitely think he’s got self-loathing issues, so it may also be him seeking out what he thinks he deserves.

      2. ziggy78eog

        No, Joe has earned every bit of hate that comes his way, and he knows it. Now that his sexist list is out for all to see, his reputation proceeds him, and not in a good way. He has a lot of work to do, to get out of that hole, and considering his last little stunt with Ruth, he might never get out of it.

    2. Johan

      They used to be fuck buddies in a different universe so… ¯\_ಠ_ಠ_/¯

      1. Jon Rich

        If they learned about that, Dumbiverse Joe would be thrilled. Dumbiverse Sarah would experience existential horror and revulsion.

    3. Clif

      Not so much weird as unexpected.

    4. Demoted Oblivious

      Definitely weird. But for someone who fucked up, is capable of not caring about being hated, and yet still isn’t in their heart a bad person, it’s a logical outcome.

  2. Sirksome

    Is Joe depressed or something? Joe is depressed.

    1. Thag Simmons

      Definitely seems that way

    2. General Tekno

      That’d track. I think he’s convinced he can’t not fall into the same womanizing spiral his dad is in, even if he doesn’t like it.

    3. Kyrik Michalowski

      I don’t know if he is depressed but offering to be a “hate sink” isn’t healthy in any shape or form.

      1. StClair

        Agreed. 🙁

    4. drs

      Hatefucking is still fucking.

      1. Sirksome

        Pretty sure he disqualified that option in panel 3. Not that he wouldn’t be open to it but it’s pretty clear that’s not Sarah’s jam.

        1. plasticwrap

          Maybe he’s secretly hoping it will pan out into hate sex. He’s probably always hoping it will pan out. Into sex. Or maybe he’s kinda sweet on the inside. Or both.

      2. BarerMender

        Hate fucking is hot. The problem is finding someone to do it with.

    5. Regalli

      Remember that, when last we really saw him pre-timeskip, he was
      A: Still convinced that he could never have a serious relationship without fucking it up like his dad did,
      B: Now ACUTELY aware that his previous cover of ‘keep everything surface level and gross so no one expects anything of me and no one gets hurt as a result’ was wrong and people WERE getting hurt by his skeeviness,
      C: Attempting therefore to go cold turkey on All Sex And Attraction To Women Ever, which predictably failed (which could easily fuel a self-loathing spiral,) and
      D: Totally in love with Joyce but because of points A-C, would never ever act on it by seriously confessing he has Feelings (because that would, of course, lead to him cheating and breaking her heart eventually like his dad did to his mom,) even if he’s fully aware of the fact that he’s not just attracted to her but has Feelings. (/Shipper goggles but also, look at the talk with Jacob.) Not that she would’ve been in a great state to date just then anyway.

      I wouldn’t be shocked if he’s been closer to the Depression Pit than anyone would like for a while – feeling the need to lie about having threesomes to project the proper No Feelings Party Bro image doesn’t really suggest good things, and there seem like some fatalism and self-worth issues from that ‘no one gets hurt’ part – but it’s also really easy to see him sinking during the timeskip because of that ‘I am doomed to be a scumbag but cannot stop desiring sex’ aspect in particular.

      1. C.T Phipps

        Joe fucked up with the Do-List and now has the exact same monstrous sexist reputation that he gave his dad.

        There’s also no way to convince anyone he’s not a scumbag now. Doughnuts or not.

        1. StClair

          It’s okay, though. Because as Joe would tell you himself, he deserves this. 😐

        2. Regalli

          I mean, eventually he will meet people who did not know him while he had a Do List, but yeah, bridges are burned with most women on campus. I can see people he was already friends with (Joyce, Dorothy) being willing to accept him genuinely attempting to better himself. Likely also a handful of people like Sal or Amber or Ruth who have personal experience with fucking up tremendously and trying to do better afterwards for their own sakes. (Jury’s still out on Jennifer on that front, given her new image is so much like her attempts to turn over a new leaf starting high school, and college, and transferring dorms.) Also at least one or two people who don’t give a fuck, like Malaya. But while that’s a decent chunk of the main cast, yeah, it’s virtually no one compared to every other woman in the hall who’s disgusted by him, and likely a lot of the campus depending on how far knowledge of the List (and the rankings themselves) spread.

        3. drs

          There are like 17,000 women undergrads at IU. I am skeptical that his name is mud to all of them, because I’m skeptical most of them would have even heard of him.

        4. plasticwrap

          Like most comics set in a decent-sized town, Joe would have encounters with female characters not in the known cast, but it will not be shown to us and thus might as well not exist. I think safer to assume is that 80-90% of all girls in the dorm have heard of “sex monger beefcake Joe” and his disgusting womanizing ways. The people living in your dorm are the ones you’re most likely to run into anyway. Word travels in dorms when the tale is juicy enough. And if Joe uses Facebook/Insta/etc. His face and list probably made the rounds along IU lines and his old high school friends as well.
          I agree that campus-wide there’s a much lower chance of his reputation preceding him so thoroughly (especially as a freshman I would think) but think about how much higher the percentage would be in your own circles and the fact that the comic won’t show us many (if any) interactions with fresh, new characters.

        5. Keulen

          There’s also the fact that last semester Joe was in a sex tape with a fellow classmate who’s the younger sister of a (now former) Congresswoman, so a number of women at IU who haven’t actually met him might still have heard of him from that.

        6. Needfuldoer

          That also raises the minimum number of women on campus who would give a fuck to two.

        7. thejeff

          True from a narrative perspective, especially since Joe is a secondary character, but in the real world, Joe would have plenty of opportunities to socialize outside of his dorm. I barely hung out with anyone from my dorm in college and Joe is much more outgoing than I am.

          Joe’s List reputation wouldn’t really do him much harm in the wider IU world. It’s his internal struggle that’s keeping him from pursuing other options.

      2. Spencer

        As a professional JoJologist I approve of this reading.

      3. Jamie

        I agree with this read. I’ve been sympathetic with Joe for a while, even though he hasn’t done anything to actually deserve that. I can hear an echo or two of an old self in Joe’s offer.

        1. Regalli

          It’s that clear undercurrent whenever he lets himself get serious of… well, this. He can stop acting like a scumbag, but that first requires convincing himself that he can and that it’s worth the effort of changing even if no one will treat him differently for it. (Which likely won’t be no one, but like, he knows how much he fucked up with the Do List, and this variety of self-loathing convinces you that it is in fact no one.) And that’s pretty hard to do when you hate yourself.

          Honestly also, part of the reason I’m firmly on Team Richard Cheated With Other Serious Relationships, And Hadn’t Substantially Changed Before Meeting Stacy is because that ‘effort is pointless, I will always be this’ undercurrent makes even more sense if he HAS seen that cycle happen with more than just his mom. But also, eighteen-year-olds. Wise decisions are not their trademark, as a group.

        2. Regalli

          By which I mean, yeah, easy to be sympathetic when it seems like the guy genuinely does not like himself or his actions. The real monsters of this strip are/were all convinced they were doing the right thing. Joe’s been knocked out of trying to keep justifying things like the Do List, and with it we’ve been seeing hints of the insecurity underpinning it all.

        3. Sirksome

          He might have been hanging out with Amber too much. She has this exact same self loathing, defeatist attitude that enables her own brand of harmful, anti-social, possibly even abusive tendencies. And it kind seems like she didn’t get much help over the time skip. It’s a classic sign of depression and Joe probably needs professional help of some kind. My problem is there are small step he can take immediately to just not be a douche. Stuff likenot instigating Sarah just cause what? He was bored and felt arbitrarily challenged? There’s no excuse for that.

        4. Regalli

          Oh, yeah, but even those small steps seem colossal when you’re depressed and a teenager. Wouldn’t be shocked if he is actively self-sabotaging as well because he thinks he deserves Sarah’s hate or something.

          I don’t think it was Amber, honestly, the signs were there long before they got back from break. (Though yes, she also needs serious help from someone equipped to do so. Unfortunately, finding a therapist who wouldn’t make things worse is its own challenge when you’re dealing with ‘scary’ and widely misunderstood conditions like plurality.)

        5. milu

          ok Regalli, wow. your analyses are so consistently smart?! i guess you know the story inside out which must help. but also you phrase things really clearly, and i like your perspective.

          slick scholarship ^^

        6. Regalli

          Thanks! Can’t take full credit – a lot of my reads on characters have been shaped by other commenters or Willis, as has my memory for certain details (I need to do a full reread someday.) But I do have a better-than-average memory of particular moments, which makes it easier to go back and trawl a specific tag or storyline to find what I’m looking for, and a LOT of training in writing and analysis that translates well to stories. Also by now I think Willis’s comics qualify as a special interest, particularly since a lot of his characters’ struggles with mental health and neurodivergence ring really true to my own experience so I can see, say, Walky’s avoidance spiral over grades and go ‘oh yeah I know what that one’s like, here’s how it went down for me.’ Or Joyce’s ‘if I ignore this thing that scares me, it will go away and I will not have to acknowledge it,’ and how ‘oh I’m fine!’ is so rote it doesn’t really qualify as a lie so she can cover for her faith crashing down around her with Becky.

        7. milu

          Juste curious, whats ypur experience with writing and analysis?

        8. Regalli

          Went to a writing-heavy college, followed by paralegal coursework where I most enjoyed the research and writing classes. Sometimes I joke/threaten about writing a literary analysis of the Ace Attorney trilogy for fun. Just need to get around to it.

        9. Jenn

          I was actually just thinking about this. Amber feels like she’s been cursed to share the same “petty rage” her father had; Joe feels the same way about him and his father’s sleaziness. They really are family!

    6. DailyBrad

      It’s consistent, honestly, with the turn he has taken since Richard got with Amber’s mom, and Joyce having her eye on Jacob. He does not like himself very much, so this makes sense.

    7. RacingTurtle

      Yeah. 🙁

    8. Jason Rivest

      That is my impression too.

    9. ziggy78eog

      I would not call it depression, just yet, but there is definitely some self hate vibes going on.

    10. ADLegend21

      yeah he’s openly stated some serious self loathing and depression but it hasn’t been addressed since in a direct manner.

  3. Kyrik Michalowski

    So Joe’s assholery serves a higher purpose, now if only he used his power for the greater good. I’m sure he could do something, right?

    1. Jhon

      Like Mike?

  4. RassilonTDavros

    Joe’s reasoning sounds… disturbingly similar to all that stuff about how Ruth and Jennifer were both poison so they couldn’t hurt each other.

    1. Yumi

      Joe ain’t doing so hot.

    2. StClair

      Doesn’t it, though.

  5. BBCC

    God these two are interesting.

  6. Cattleprod

    Ah, my favorite character dynamic, enemies to different kind of enemies.

  7. Nono

    Was there any specific reason Sarah hates Joe other than ‘hit on her once, is kinda skeevy’? Which, granted, is PLENTY of reason…

    1. Kyrik Michalowski

      She possibky holds a grudge for Joyce’s date with him, as well. Other than that she could still bs upset with him for his “Do” list that got spread around.

      1. He Who Abides

        What exactly did Joe do on that date to have people hate him for it? Like, seriously, Joyce and Mike were infinitely worse in that situation.

        1. Nono

          It’s largely a byproduct of that era; at the time the date strips ran, DoA was still coming off the ‘haha slapstick comedy’ era that Shortpacked! was finishing up on. That and it being over ten years ago meant that ‘haha, Joe got beat up for looking at another girl’ landed a lot better back then.

          Also, given that I’m assuming that Sarah got a Joyce-filtered recount of the date’s events, she probably got a much less favourable opinion of Joe than the omniscient audience. I doubt Joyce mentioned that she punched him a lot.

        2. Needfuldoer

          She had Mike punch him a lot, at every action (no matter how slight) that could have been construed as an offense, practically leading to a feedback loop.

          Joyce and Joe have both grown substantially since then, to be fair.

        3. He Who Abides

          Joyce started hitting him too, right before Joe left.

        4. thejeff

          “I’m going to fix her with my penis.”

          Joyce was horrible on that date and that overshadows how bad Joe was.

    2. C.T Phipps

      Sarah thinks of Joe as a sexist scumbag and has never altered that opinion, unlike Joyce.

      1. DailyBrad

        Yeah, along with probably being frustrated with how right he was when he called her out about the Joyce/Jacob situation that she was manipulating. She’s had a number of reasons that he would be an easy target for rancor.

        1. He Who Abides

          If she’s pissed about getting called out on that whole Joyce/Jacob mess, she needs to get the fuck over it. There’s several decent reasons for Sarah to dislike Joe, but she was absolutely wrong on that one.

        2. Azhrei Vep

          Yes. She was. Which is why she’d be angry at him over it.

    3. thejeff

      Also, hit on her more than once. Got yelled at for it before he’d back off. Kept circling back with comments.
      Even talked about being attracted to her angry energy: telling women they’re hot because they’re mad at you is even worse than yesterday’s “pretty when you smile”.

      1. Jhon

        Trying to be positive, Joe only manages to be even more obnoxiously creepy. 8-(

  8. brionl

    Just bring in a hateroleum geologist to do a survey. I’m sure they could find vast, untapped reserves of hate. Enough to last decades!

    1. Doctor_Who

      Unlike fossil fuels, hate is a renewable resource!

      1. Demoted Oblivious

        The problem with fossil fuels is less their renewability as the de-sequestering of carbon. To be fair, they are renewable, they just don’t do it in our time frame.

        Hate is not just renewable on a short scale, but implemented properly can breed more hate. It’s a growth resource.

  9. cmasta1992

    Aw fuck do I ship Joe and Sarah now?

    1. Kyrik Michalowski

      A ship that will never sail, especially since the levels of hate needed to reach a “hatefuck” are astronomical in this scenario.

      1. C.T Phipps

        I ship it.

        Sarah would actually have to reevaluate Joe, though.

      2. King Daniel

        Maybe it did sail, and that’s why the Suez is clogged up now

        1. brute

          nice

  10. Jane

    Well, the comic was missing an extremely toxic relationship, I suppose.

    But seriously – not healthy, for either of you. “Hate sinks” aren’t a thing (that just encourages bad habits), and if you think you deserve to be one, you should work on correcting that rather than behaving badly and “paying for it” by being mistreated.

    1. milu

      yeah, it’s good that you said that.

      i don’t buy that you can be a nicer person generally by focusing all your aggression on one person. it also just sounds like a terrible idea.

  11. HeinousActsZX

    It’s definitely making *me* hate Joe more, I’ll tell you that. Poor Sarah.

  12. Stephen Bierce

    I Hate Myself For Loving You…

  13. RassilonTDavros

    Unrelated to the main comic, but I love how Marcie’s uniform in the Patreon preview panel has a “71” on it, the same year that the character of the same name made her debut in Peanuts.

    1. King Daniel

      I believe that’s deliberate! Willis named her after the character, if I recall correctly.

      1. Needfuldoer

        The resemblance was even closer back in the Walkyverse, when she wore normal glasses (with opaque cartoon lenses), had the same bob cut, and usually had a neutral/blank expression.

        (I like ner new haircut in the new bonus strip. It suits her.)

  14. Sirksome

    I don’t really like Joe, but I don’t think he’s burnt enough bridges yet to have this mindset. Just don’t be a misogynistic douche. It’s not really that hard. Maybe his dad set a bad example but dude’s basically an adult now. That’s not really a good excuse.

    1. Regalli

      He’s only had any real independence from his parents (and it seems specifically his dad had primary custody) for like, four months. Kids do not come fresh out of high school with good coping skills or the ability to sort out how their experiences growing up impact their mindset and how they can reframe things. Or frontal lobes, for that matter.

      Also the therapists on campus apparently suck and I suspect Richard and his ‘the love of a good woman will stop me from ever straying, and I will grow to heal her pain from her abusive now-dead ex’ frame of mind does not recognize the need for therapy anymore than Stacy does. (‘Most of your problems are caused by low blood sugar.’ Stacy, no.) Which basically rules out getting help from off-campus sources, because Richard’s the one paying for any medical care (either himself or through his insurance.)

      1. He Who Abides

        Yeah, Richard and Stacy deserve each other.

        If only that was a good thing in any way . . .

    2. UrsulaDavina

      Yeah I don’t buy the whole your 18 19 or 20 so your an adult thing I mean legally you are but they are kids and their brains are still developing, yeah Joe has been an ass, but I think he sees this as a way of redeeming himself. and Regali is right on campus therapy can be bad maybe not the quality of the therapist but often it can takes months to get a session.

      It takes awhile to evolve and Joe needs that time and both Joe and Sarah could benefit from therapy I mean Sarah’s schadenfreude and Joe’s willingness to be a hatesink (whuch is not a thing or shouldn’t be a thing) and his views on relationship is not healthy behavoir.

      1. Regalli

        The campus therapists being terrible is also a thing we’ve heard from Walky (or rather, ‘so he’s heard’ they aren’t very good, https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/herselves/ ) and if anyone was gonna get way easier access than the norm on campus it would definitely be the kid who was kidnapped, had his roommate die thanks to the people who kidnapped him, witnessed one of the kidnappers murder the other, and whose mom is the amicable ex of the dean and is not afraid of suing whoever she can blame.

        1. UrsulaDavina

          I mean in my experience the university therapy had a free evaluation said in order to schedule on campus therapy I would have to wait 2 months and it would be every two months or I could do do group therapy once a months. I looked into it and found out my health insurance covered therapy so I just did that. I am guessing that was the case for alot of folks.

        2. plasticwrap

          That seems like very infrequent sessions. Once a month? Shouldn’t someone see their therapist every week?

        3. UrsulaDavina

          It depends but the reason for the infrequent timing was they had so many patients and not enough therpists hence why I reached outside of the university system.

        4. Regalli

          Sounds about right for a big university, yeah. I do wonder what Walky’s ‘not very good’ comes from – were they unequipped to handle the larger issues, or recognized things he wasn’t ready to admit to himself? Or is he specifically referring to Amber’s probable experience, where they were almost certainly ill-equipped to handle her plurality? But I could easily see Joe struggling to get seen even if he reached out.

        5. thejeff

          OTOH, Dorothy seemed to appreciate the therapist and Ruth seemed to benefit from it – possibly Jennifer as well.

      2. Sirksome

        He is old enough to know better. It’s not about being a legal adult (I probably didn’t articulate that well), it’s about having enough experience in social interaction to know how to act appropriately. Which he does know because he called himself out on it. To me he doesn’t get a pass or sympathy because he feels bad. Sarah’s right not to tolerate his line of bullshit either. He manipulated her emotionally to what….punish himself? That’s incredibly unfair to her. And having a toxic role model or developing brain isn’t enough for me if he’s capable of recognizing he did something wrong in the moment of doing it.

        1. Regalli

          The thing is, especially when you’re young and (likely to be) depressed, ‘recognizing you’re wrong’ and ‘okay, so stop doing that’ are two very different things. I knew it was a bad idea to miss classes because I was behind on turning in assignments, but I didn’t really know what I could do to fix the ‘behind on assignments’ aspect (like, ask for help from a professor, or the writing center to make the planning stages less daunting, or even tell the campus therapist I was facing overwhelming anxiety and avoiding things) so it just continued to escalate. Eventually you decide it’s a lost cause and hopeless to try. (For instance, ‘I am destined to become my father in any romantic relationship, so I should never seriously pursue one and the Skeevy Sex Bro is the only way I can convey to women to stay away.’)

          Is it a healthy mindset? God no. Are his actions sympathetic? Absolutely not. But the thing about undiagnosed mental illness and unprocessed trauma is that your thinking is so distorted you don’t realize that you can do things differently. A lot of his dormmates are going to keep thinking of him as ‘the creepy sex bro who made a sex tape with Roz and made a list of rankings that leaked right after a rapist tried to get into the dorm with a knife,’ no matter what he does, but there’s also people who’d notice a change in behavior and go ‘yeah I’m willing to believe this is legit’ and plenty of people on campus who wouldn’t know or care. (In fairness, the Ryan part is not remotely on Joe, and he was already stalking Dorothy independently. But I bet a lot of women in the hall made the same connection Rachel made about the List’s danger, and it occurring so shortly after is gonna make an association there even if it’s unfair.) Joe is not thinking rationally about them, however. He’s thinking that he’s garbage, and he’s always going to be garbage, and if he’s always going to be garbage then what’s the point of self-improvement? It’ll probably fail anyway and then he’ll feel like more garbage and KNOW he’s garbage. May as well get Sarah’s scorn, because he’s garbage and doesn’t deserve anything better.

          Like, he should absolutely be trying to break out of that mindset! But it’s overwhelmingly difficult to do that right now, with no support and no tools to combat the ‘you are garbage’ brain. As he is fictional and therefore not hurting any real person, I’m a lot more willing to be sympathetic to his shittiness as avoidance mechanism and hope he gets help for the self-loathing. As he’s a kid, I hope he gets the tools he needs to improve himself, because even shitty 18-year-olds like Mike have potential to be better and learn from their actions. Hell, even Mary could realize she’s awful and decide to turn her life around. I don’t think she will, but she could. But I’m willing to cut more slack to an 18-year-old because they are in many respects still learning how to Be A Person, much less a decent one, and that means they’re not as well-equipped to recognize the ways their thinking has been fucked up and that they will always have other options. Sometimes that other option is ‘accept that many of these people will always hate you and try to be better anyway for your own sake,’ but that’s still an option.

          I dunno. I’m a fan of redemption arcs, I recognize Joe’s likely on one, but regressions happen a lot because profoundly changing your behavior and thought processes is hard even with support. And a redemption arc does require the character first doing something genuinely bad, so those regressions are also going to be messy. But I’m willing to play the long game with a lot of characters here, because we’ve seen arcs percolate for years and Willis has said this strip was designed with the potential to keep writing it forever if they wanted to. If a character’s trajectory has been generally upwards, I’m more willing to take the backslides as probably temporary.

        2. StClair

          Well analyzed, IMO, and yes, all of this. Including the last part.

        3. Demoted Oblivious

          While I recognize that people being shitty to others is often a defense mechanism, it’s still a shitty thing to do. As one piece of garbage viewing someone else’s actions, I can understand the fallacies in their thinking, but choosing to be shitty to people because you are sounds much more like an excuse. Even as a teen who understood their garbage status, that was only ever an excuse to be shitty in response to someone else’s shittiness. (I don’t like bullies). But to Q. Public person I still saw the social obligation to be nice to people. Just being shitty to someone, without provocation is just nastiness.

          It was put it well by asomeone else when talking about borderline people, just because we can understand _why_ they behave like assholes, doesn’t stop their behaviour from making them assholes.

          In Joe’s case in the elevator I get it, though I’d likely have apologized afterwards. Amongst my friends I’m known to have a rather sharp wit and equally sharp tongue. Often (less so as I get better at stopping it) I find myself apologizing after speaking before thinking that a particular joke may be more hurtful than funny. It’s a characteristic that I was once kind of proud of because it made people laugh, but the more pain there is inside, lessens the desire to subject others to the same.

        4. Regalli

          Reasonable. Like I said, I judge Joe (or Mike, who I was harsh on, or Becky or Walky) a bit differently than real people because they’re fictional, and in this case because I’m seeing it as ‘oh you absolute turd, I know why you’re like this but why are you like this’ while still not wanting them to change too spontaneously because these tend to be long arcs.

          I also have sympathy for most of the cast, so I think I tend to step in more for a character when they’re getting slammed and I think it’s uncharitable towards them. (See also: Walky.) Sometimes that’s giving them too much credit, but Mike’s basically the only character you saw people consistently being WAY too nice to as opposed to overwhelmingly harsh on. (Except for some of the parents. Arguably as a whole we’re probably nicer to Ruth than her past actions as RA merit, but also by now she spent so many years being depressed or trying to crawl out of the Depression Pit as opposed to being terrible that we’ve kind of forgotten HOW bad she was at the start. Also she doesn’t want to be RA, either, so at least she’s aware she sucks at it.) When we’ve had comments like ‘why aren’t Ethan and Walky reacting as violently to a high-danger hostage situation as Joyce and Amber,’ I’m more likely to overcorrect for ‘these kids are still kids! Who behave like dumb kids! And freeze in response to trauma like many people! And have bad coping skills because they’re eighteen!’

    3. Throwatron

      Yes, but if he stops being a misogynistic douche, he has to learn an entire new set of avoidant behaviors for forming actual interpersonal relationships, and he isn’t ready to quite that emotionally vulnerable!

      1. Regalli

        Yep, all this too.

    4. Jay

      I think you’re underestimating how much trauma and 18/19 year old can carry.

  15. Melissa in Missouri

    I feel sorry for him. I think he doesn’t feel that he is worthy of love, so maybe the only genuine emotion he thinks he is worthy of is hate.

  16. C.T Phipps

    Joe, you can tease someone like this if they’re your friend.

    Sarah is not your friend.

    Sarah HATES you.

  17. Rycan

    Joe, sometimes a burned bridge is just a burned bridge.

    1. C.T Phipps

      I wonder if Joe’s dad is somewhat similar to Joe. Joe thinks of him as a sexist monster because of his adultery but it turned out Joedad was just really lonely and in a relationship that served neither partner.

      That may be letting Joedad off the hook too much but it seems he and his wife just did not work. It might be more complicated than he was a philanderer like Joe’s decided.

      1. Regalli

        I for one got the vibe off Richard and Joe’s conversation about Stacy that Joe’s mom wasn’t the only relationship Richard’s screwed up with cheating, but you know, if I’m wrong then maybe good things will come out of that!

        (… Yeah, that’s likely.)

        The fact that Richard’s best defense was ‘but she’s hurt and she’s hot so THIS TIME will be different, promise, I haven’t even LOOKED at another woman yet!’ admittedly does not instill me with confidence. Just screams of magical thinking and forgetting honeymoon periods are a thing.

        1. Needfuldoer

          Yup. Richard’s real test hasn’t happened on-screen yet. “Marrying the mistress creates a vacancy”, as they say.

        2. thejeff

          Yeah, I just can’t see it going in that direction. Much like all the other clues about how parents were bad didn’t turn out to be just the kid misunderstanding.

  18. a/snow/mous/e

    “Hate sink” is a great name for Dorothy’s relationship to Becky, tbh.

  19. Spencer

    Billie/Ruth is dead so time for the real best Roomies ship to be revived.

    1. Johan

      Was it tho?

      1. Regalli

        You do have a point. Obviously the BEST ship was Danny/Joyce.

        (Note: It was not. At all.)

        1. Madock345

          It was definitely Danny/Joe

        2. King Daniel

          You sure it wasn’t Mary/Billie?

          Come on, who didn’t like it when Billie’s fist showed us how close it could get to Mary’s face

        3. Varangian

          You know, Danny/Joyce from Roomies was the trash fire to end all trash fires, and a recent reread only cemented this, BUT I would kind of love to see it try to happen in DoA

          Joyce, in a moment of passion, looking into Danny’s eyes and saying “I don’t…I don’t want to wait any longer….Hat Boy.”

          Danny dying on the spot

        4. Needfuldoer

          Danny waits for her at the date restaurant, not wearing his hat. Joyce shows up and looks around for him. He doesn’t notice her.

          Fifteen minutes later, Joyce runs away from the restaurant in tears because she thinks he stood her up.

        5. Varangian

          But as she’s running out in tears she hears a mournful ukulele, and realizes she didn’t recognize her beloved Hat Boy without his hat

          They embrace passionately

          The ukulele is destroyed by the embrace

        6. Varangian

          OH GOD OH FUCK OH NO

          MY HUBRIS CURSED ME

        7. StClair

          “My hubris!”

        8. Needfuldoer

          At least the ukulele was destroyed.

        9. Regalli

          This is hilarious, thank you.

    2. Sombrero

      You mean Sal/the teletubby alien, right?

    3. RassilonTDavros

      Billie/Ruth is dead, long live Jennifer/Ruth

  20. TaintedSpud

    Ooooh shower the people you hate with hate…

  21. Spencer

    Anyway jeez it sure is interesting that a guy who said that talking about feelings under any circumstance is dumb and makes pointed remarks to Joyce that he’ll never ever change and nobody does (except when he’s with Jacob and tells him that Joyce is changing all the time and one day she’ll be too perfect even for Jacob) is now offering himself to an acquaintance to act as a sounding board while making commentary to the effect that Sarah’s constant grim mood can be directed towards him and avoid people she actually likes.

    1. Needfuldoer

      My take is that he feels he has nothing to lose in his relationship with Sarah. That bridge is burned so he’ll take more chances. He wants a relationship with Joyce, and he’s afraid of ruining the rapport they do have.

  22. Megan Rivera

    Joe if you REALLY cared you wouldn’t be a misogynistic asshole to these girls.

    1. Jay

      But then he’d have to form an emotional relationship with them and that’s scary.

  23. Bagge

    Joe is… helping?

    I think he thinks he’s helping.

    1. He Who Abides

      I think he’s trying to help, he’s just not any good at it.

    2. Needfuldoer

      Joe sure is trying.

  24. Johan

    Yeah kinda sounds like he’s protecting Joyce again…

  25. ESM

    I think Joe is trying to be helpful but inviting a woman to come by an insult him just comes off as kinky

    1. ESM

      https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/03-see-you-in-the-funny-page/spookyvoice/

      Wait, I thought I was just being snarky by insinuating that Joe offering to be a hate sink for Sarah was a creepy sex thing and not a sincere if odd effort to be kind, but then I remembered that Joe actually explicitly said he’s sexually into women tearing into him and now I’m scared my first read was correct

      1. Jay

        Hey hey hey, Joe could be into Vore

        1. ESM

          Joe can be into whatever he wants to be, but telling Sarah “Hey, I know we’re never gonna have sex but maybe you can come over to my place and insult me a lot sometime” comes off SIGNIFICANTLY sketchier that Joe probably intended it to.

        2. Jay

          True, True.

      2. Spencer

        I have my own read on the progression of Joe’s character, but it’s a little weird because it delves into my interpretation of authorial intent.

        Basically, I think Joe at the start of the comic isn’t really the same Joe we have now, and that part of this is that Willis’ own opinion of Joe has changed since 2010. Joe then was this lovable sex bro who got one over Danny by telling him that his white knighting Billie was more genuinely misogynistic than anything Joe has done, and the Do List was played for laughs. When he says what he did to Sarah I think the intent is that Joe hit on Sarah, his hand got bitten, so he realized that he was being inappropriate and he needs to back off because Sarah doesn’t appreciate his flirting and he’s emotionally mature enough to realize she doesn’t have to.

        Then years later the Do List comes out, it’s not just a gag anymore, and it’s swiftly revealed that a guy keeping tabs on every woman he comes across, rating them numerically for his sexual attraction to them, and handing the list out to anyone who asked as if every single person was Joe and had his “ethical” approach to casual sex and wasn’t, say, the kind of person who wanted a list of when a particular woman was hanging out at a specific time for very obviously savory reasons.

        1. ESM

          Well, there’s that, but I’m also thinking back to the “Walky is an incel who exposes himself to Lucy” discourse from a few months ago, which I was part of, where it legitimately wasn’t clear if that was what we were intended to take away from the strip and Willis had to come in and clarify that no Walky was neither a flasher nor a burgeoning neonazi.

          In this case, I think it’s pretty clear that the “Step on me Queen” interpretation of Joe’s offer isn’t what Willis intended, but this is a comic strip where the humor is that everyone is a bit of an asshole and also most of the cast is female, so all the dudes in this comic are being assholes to women in the majority of their appearances, which creates a bit of a meta-level tension I find fascinating: Joe’s character arc is that he needs to learn to respect women, so he has strips where he’s more thoughtful and kind and helpful to show his growth, which has the odd effect that the guy whose character arc is about how he’s sexist is the one hogging all the respect women juice. Walky’s spent the timeskip being an abrasive dickhead to Lucy every single strip with a quick break to stalk Jennifer, but there’s no reflection on the way HE treats women because his arc isn’t really about that. He’s supposed to be an asshole generally, and the fact that he’s an asshole to women nigh-exclusively is just a weird side-effect of how the cast is mostly women. It’s still interesting to think about, though, IMO.

        2. zee

          I still have no idea how people got to that incel flasher conclusion. One of the dumbest discourses in these comments, swear to god…

        3. thejeff

          I don’t really think so. There’s definitely been a bit of a shift in emphasis and maybe some of the earliest stuff could be written off as early season weirdness, but the creepiness was there from the beginning as were hints at the performative nature of it. Particularly his reaction to his father.

          He still keeps making inappropriate comments after being shot down. He never backs off easily, just when he’s threatened or yelled at.

          What we actually see in his arc after the list comes out isn’t a revelation that he was worse, but of how performative it all was and how much of it was just boasting, like the comments about alcohol and threesomes.

        4. Spencer

          It’s definitely the vibe I get from how a lot of the cast feels fully formed from day one, whereas with Joe part of it was eventually revealing that his frat bro persona was partly an act and that it had legitimate consequence he never considered and was horrified when facing.

          The problem with trying to sincerely argue it is that it involves discussing Dumbing of Age writer and Actual Real Life Human Being David Willis’ creative decisions and intent as if I had some kind of insight into them, which is to say that anything I could write down along this path would involve “and this is definitely what they meant to say when making this decision and if I am wrong then let God strike me down with vengeance where I stand.”

        5. ESM

          Especially since Willis, being more powerful than God, actually can strike you down if you get too wild and out there!

        6. RacingTurtle

          I think you’re right that the way the author understands the character is a big part of Joe’s character growth. It goes all the way back to Roomies!, where Joe was the sex-positive character written by a young evangelical who had no idea how to write such a thing. Walkyverse Joe starts out as a huge creep because he is written by someone who sees all sexual behavior as sinful, yet still wants to write a sexual character. Sexual harassment and one night stands get portrayed on equal footing, you’re basically supposed to laugh at “oh, that’s Joe, the horndog, that’s just how he is.” Now the author is grown and understands that consent and treating people like people, not objects, makes all the difference. Wilis seems to have cleverly distilled those years of personal growth into a character arc for Joe, in which he does “funny” things like the Do List, only to discover they’re not funny at all. Joe thinks he failed to change because he couldn’t swear off sex altogether, but that’s not actually his problem. His problem is he’s afraid to treat people like people instead of like objects—including himself.

        7. thejeff

          Perhaps, but I think there were enough signs of trouble early on not to think that Willis recognized the problems from the start.

        8. Regalli

          Yeah, I think Joe was set up for an arc like this and was always meant to be some degree of skeevy, whereas say, Robin definitely changed in a hurry after Willis had based her off Trump as a joke and then Trump was president and terrible. I could see the Becky plot spinning out of an attempt to reconcile Robin having human moments and being zany to that point with the reality of the current Republican party. Or how Sarah’s stance on police seems to have adjusted between Book One and Book Ten. (Some of that you can explain as the difference between ‘taking someone who shows clear signs of being roofied and can therefore be tested after the fact’ to ‘bringing the police into an active hostage situation’ in relative likeliness of police violence, but it’s also definitely the case that Willis is more aware of why a black woman wouldn’t have much trust in the police now than they did in 2010.) Or AG only gradually becoming an alter rather than a traditional super-identity. I could see Joe not always being intended as AS skeevy as he reads now, but that could also be from how Willis hadn’t really written a lot of Joe of late when DoA started and trying out different takes on him in the new universe. I think ‘hey let’s unpack your baggage from your dad’ and ‘learning to interact with women WITHOUT hitting on them’ were always potential plotlines for him, the same way Ruth was almost certainly always intended to be shown grappling with depression. (If for no other reason than the fact that, while neither arc is a straight retread of their Walkyverse plotlines, Joe definitely had matured by the end of It’s Walky in ways he’s been confronting in slightly different ways as DoA progresses. Meanwhile Ruth… well, she’s in a similar place at the start as she is in Roomies, but Roomies Ruth never really got the chance to get the help DoA Ruth has.)

  26. JessWitt

    Given his condescending comment to Sarah yesterday, Joe’s been acting more like a hate sinkhole.

    1. He Who Abides

      A comment that she kind of had coming to her, considering her first line to him yesterday.

  27. Adam Black

    They are gonna Bone

    1. Agemegos

      I wonder what Joyce will make of that.

      1. Adam Black

        You made me laugh.

        Hopefully they have to sneak around, Joyce gets mad. Then gets jealous.

    2. RacingTurtle

      I certainly hope Sarah has more self-respect than that. I say this as someone who likes Joe a lot, but I like Sarah too. Sarah would be disgusted with herself if she went there, so I hope she doesn’t.

      1. Sol

        Feels like it would be a retread of Roomies! where Joe and Sarah had a brief… thing… going on… I’ve only read through Roomies! once like 2 years ago so my memory of it is hazy.

        1. King Daniel

          It’s definitely not a regular thing, but Willis has revived a few Walkyverse relationships here and there (the big one obviously being Ruth/Billie, but Sal/Jason and others also come to mind); their rule with regards to that seems to be that they’re open to the possibility if they can cover “new ground” with it.

        2. Adam Black

          Yeah, the Literally the Healthiest relationship in Roomies.

          I wouldnt write it, but they are gonna hate fuck. It has room to grow.

      2. Adam Black

        I wouldnt write it.

        But it cant be worse than Billy /Ruth.

        1. Adam Black

          …and the fandom , SO STARVED for representation Fkin LOVED Ruth x Billie.

          < and Willis shipteased us Danny/ Ethan as a healthy gay pairing for 5+ and never delivered. I cant even "damn u willis" .you know better.

          I bet if Danny liked being punched in the face, they would get their own romantic spinoff! and Willis Just give update Dannys alcoholism to Heroin addiction , and you can call it "Punch Junk Love" .

  28. Ray Radlein

    “Yes, yes… let the hate flow through you”

  29. Varangian

    Y’see, kids, sometimes an unhealthy relationship is the pseudosexual tension between a nice wholesome goth misanthrope girl and a deeply depressed self-flagellating gym bro in love with Joyce.

  30. Farmer_10

    Jesus Christ, man. Who the hell VOLUNTEERS for something like that?

    1. Keulen

      Joe, apparently.

    2. DrunkenNordmann

      Somebody who hates themselves.

      1. StClair

        “Might as well let everyone else in on it, at least then I’ll be good/useful for something…”

  31. plasticwrap

    Someone please explain to me how what Joe’s doing is particularly toxic or unhealthy… Sarah hates Joe, so she might as well dump all of her attitude on Joe, if he so volunteers, right? I have very often felt more comfortable with indifference or dislike (or even hate, if I can resign myself to it) in a relationship with an acquaintance because there’s no possibility of disappointment or loss. I can’t lose their respect or affection or high opinion, I don’t have to bond with them, I just stand there and make myself useful, and with a lack of intimacy and vulnerability, the abuse rolls off like water on a duck. This kind of purpose would make me feel good at the end of the day. Does that mean I have issues? Maybe I’m not seeing everything. I have always had little to nothing in the way of self-love, so maybe I fit the depressed type more than most and that’s why I (unlike most) would be happy to be the object of verbal abuse from the right person, and that’s what aligns me with (potentially depresse) Joe, but what exactly is toxic about his suggestion here? Does Sarah stand to develop bad abusive habits from an arrangement like this or…?

    1. Bogeywoman

      I think what you’ve said is very interesting.

      Firstly, I cant and wont comment on your personal experience because that’s not my thing to do, and I also wouldn’t use the word “toxic” because it’s too vague and subjective for me.

      I would agree with the idea that ^this^ hate sink biz is unhealthy and potentially harmful, moreso for joe. He seems to have a lot of unprocessed self-loathing and potential depression because he’s made some awful decisions but doesn’t believe he is capable of changed/is fated to turn out like his dad.
      He doesn’t have many positive/healthy relationships and lacks any positive role models. This means he can’t process those emotions and experiences in a helpful way.
      At 12.24 Regalli made a good summary with specifics on this and others have posted links too.

      If he sees himself as deserving of hate and seeks out punishment it’s essentially a form of self-destruction. Its harmful to self esteem (and he needs more self esteem to be able to change and see himself as capable of change) and may essentially serve to reinforce other harmful actions. E.g. seeking out sex for endorphins>believing he can’t change>self loathing>push people away>hate sex>etc.

      Imma leave it there now cos I don’t know if I’m waffling soz :0

    2. WanderingLynx

      … It’s 6 am and my English is starting to fizz out so, just. Just let me give you a virtual hug, fam. Being “useful” isn’t the same as “having a purpose”, receiving abuse is neither, and negative attention isn’t better than no attention at all.

      Joe hates himself and Sarah accepting would validate that self-hate. Sarah thinks the only way she can be happy is when others are miserable, and Joe is daring her to prove it. There’s constructive ways to address all these feelings, which can be done through therapy and/or kink in a Safe, Sane, and Consensual arrangement – But nothing good or healthy could come out of those two trying the latter at this point or in this mindset.

      Like… Seriously, been there and this comment broke my heart on your behalf. You deserve better.

      1. StClair

        FWIW, I thought your English and your thinking/grasp of the situation/advice was all good here.

  32. Ob

    So I guess I’m out of the loop in US 2020 etiquette, can anyone explain to me why saying someone is pretty when they smile makes them go apeshit and brands you as a misogynistic asshole / scum of the earth? It would just be a mild compliment in most other cultures.

    Is this one of those special things with hidden meanings, like calling a black person “articulate”?

    1. WanderingLynx

      I’d say the comparison nails it. It usually comes a) unsolicited; and b) worded like “you’d be prettier if you smiled!” or “such a pretty girl shouldn’t be frowning”, etc and ad nauseam – It implies a woman’s only worth is as decoration regardless of her feelings.

      Unsolicited commentary on a woman’s body and/or body language would be already irritating enough without that added charge; and of course, there’s the matter of said woman being branded apeshit (or “in her days” or idk, dude, take your pick) if it gets its rightful negative response. All of these things make it quite the opposite of a compliment.

    2. Nymphie

      Additional to WanderingLynxs comment, the phrasing is invalidating other emotions.

      Theres two concepts that could be relevant if someone wants to do deeper reading: emotional neglect, and toxic positivity.

      Emotional neglect is the denial of allowing a person to process emotions. Telling someone they are prettier when smiling is putting priority on them showing a pleasant apperanche for your sake, than them actually feeling well. Think of service workers being forced to smile as a part of the job, or a child not being allowed at the dinner table if they’re frowning. Or, since im rereading For Better or For worse right now, one strip John straight up tells teen Elizabeth to leave the room because she’s sulking, even though she was just sitting by herself minding her own business while he was reading the newspaper.

      Toxic positivity is a behaviour and additude of that putting focus on problems is the reason you feel bad about them and that the solution is to repress everything bad. Dont talk about it, because then you feed it. “Inside you is two wolves” is an example of it. When it comes to smile “compliments” it sort of becomes a putting the carriage in front of the horse-idea of that if you smile more and display happiness, the reasons for you frowning will get solved/dissapear. In very severe cases, it could become a part of gaslighting a victim into thinking that they are creating all their problems in their head.

      Had Joe just said “your smile is pretty” or “you’re pretty when you smile”, it would have been much more sincere as a compliment than when he ranks her emotions and the scoring system is based on what he likes to look at. Thats not what her emotions are for.

      Maybe a bit much infodumping, but this is one of my special interests to dig into

      1. milu

        Very well put. I think there’s layers to this though (which, no surprise, this being a very crafty work of fiction). Like I think Sarah is really invested in being perceived as an uncompromising pessimist, a reliably surly, antisocial provider of brutal truths no one wants to hear, so being called pretty – by a leering chad no less – is an affront to the small niche of dignity she has carved out for herself.

        The fact that Joe’s comment was just nauseatingly sexist, and no doubt something she’s heard countless times already, adds insult to injury.

        And of course Joe knows all of that.

        1. Jhon

          “a reliably surly, antisocial provider of brutal truths no one wants to hear”
          So, kinda like Mike, then?

        2. milu

          nnnnooo…?
          mike got a kick out of wreaking havoc. sarah is just convinced she’s always gonna be the adult in the room because if not her then who.

    3. Adam Black

      because its a backhanded compliment.

      its insulting someone… if they dont smile for you as a service.
      and its almost exclusively lobbed at women 10,000 to 1. ( usually with a sneer or possibly threateningly )

      So a man hearing this, hears a normal sounding sentence.
      A woman hears the 10,000 times she has been sexually harassed and possibly assaulted; and some schmo is adding to the pile .

  33. Rabisch

    I love when Joe is sincerely nice with others ♡♡♡♡

  34. FacelessDeviant

    A strange, STRANGE thing to offer to be.

  35. Fuzzy

    Mm. TW: discussing suicide.

    I wonder if Joe is eventually gonna try to hurt himself real bad. He seems kind of impulsive, especially with self-destructive behaviors. I could see him deciding to in a moment of intense self-loathing at night by himself.

    We already had a storyline about Ruth’s suicide attempt so I don’t know if it’ll go there just because it’d be retreating old ground. But maybe.

    1. AGV

      I have a similar fear.

      Joe deserves the crap he gets for what he’s done. But going around like a kamikaze hoping that you’ll be rightfully smitten by something or someone (instead of actually doing something to improve and/or make amends) is a big load of nope.

      And on top of that he’s not only setting him self up for disaster, he’s dragging others into it.

  36. Deanatay

    I SHIP THEM

    I mean, yeah, it’s a hate ship, but so be it.

  37. davidbreslin101

    He’s offering to be her personal Mike?

    1. He Who Abides

      No, he’s asking her to be his personal Mike.

      1. AGV

        Pretty much, regardless of how aware he is of that

  38. Koms

    Hahaha reminds me of the time I was literally a hate sink for my ex.. not a good place to be. I can say first hand, Joe feels he deserves it. It comes from a place of self loathing and feeling he deserves to be punished.
    Surely Joe isn’t manipulating Sarah, he wouldn’t be so undehanded?
    I wish he would understand his own worth and understand that parents are never really perfect and we are not doomed to repeat their mistakes.

  39. RedCat

    Are you ok, Joe?

    1. StClair

      (he is not)

  40. Vulcanodon

    Kinda feels like Joe’s trying to find anything to salvage the moment. He isn’t feeling real positive about himself lately, if he ever did.

  41. Sombrero

    “well past”? Is the metafictional multiverse singularity growing? What aberrations are in store for us?

  42. Joe Angel

    Didn’t think Dumbing of Age would pull a homestuck and introduce a kismesis.

  43. Emily

    Nothing like a self-centered jerk becoming self aware and growing emotionally. *chef’s kiss*

  44. Brighter Side

    Welp, she’s obviously the damage-dealing mage and he’s the tank. Who’s the cleric? Dorothy?

    1. Ellegos

      At this point? Probably Becky.
      Dina’s unparalleled stealth makes her a shoe-in for Rogue.

  45. Josh Spicer

    Fuck I shouldn’t be feeling bad for Joe in this situation but the guy is losing himself every time we see him. Not even the shitty parts of himself, just the the person that is Joe.

  46. Jay

    I suddenly have a Joe/Booster ship running in my mind!

  47. JA

    They gonna have Angry Sex.

  48. Kravis

    A “Fucking Favor” is EXACTLY what he wants to do for ya, girl.

  49. Sporky

    Wow, Joe is… not okay

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