One the one hand: yeah, yikes. Even if her concern is reasonable, trying to pick a fight with Joe about it isn’t. On the other hand: I remember being Dorothy’s age, and I certainly didn’t have the maturity to recognize that the diplomatic option was usually better than the dramatic one. She’s got her heart in the right place.
Clif
I have to believe Dorothy is in the right here. If Joe doesn’t have feelings for Joyce, and he’s giving Dorothy no reason to believe he does, then there’s no reason for diplomatic being around the bush.
Clif
* beating around the bush
Needfuldoer
It’s important to remember she hasn’t been around for any of his character growth, too. She’s operating on the assumption he’s still the same Joe she knew in high school. She wasn’t there to witness Rachel tear him down, the many heart-to-heart moments he’s shared with Joyce, their science classes together, or the art class ‘yesterday’. Something tells me this outing will end with Joyce a little bit more skeptical, Joe on the back foot, and Dorothy with egg on her face.
Dorothy should talk to Amber about this. It feels like that’s where we’re headed, since the story brought Joe and Amber into each others’ orbits, and she probably wouldn’t want to go to Danny. (Although, has she seen that he’s moved on yet? Would Dorothy reappearing potentially cause an issue with him and Sal? This could go a number of directions…)
?? Joe and Joyce have been on an OTP trajectory since she hired Mike to punch him. It’s not a false path.
Also, aren’t Joe and Amber step-siblings now?
Xujhan
Diplomacy should be the default option, not something you need a reason for. This strip demonstrates exactly why: if your first instinct is to come in guns blazing, you’ll end up hitting a lot of people who don’t actually deserve it.
Eh, given Joe’s track record which I don’t blame her for jumping straight to aggressive here, could she handle it better? Sure.
But I get it.
DrunkenNordmann
Here’s the thing – Joyce also knows Joe’s track record as well, yet she still chose to hang out with him.
Matthew Davis
The difference is that Joyce has had actual meaningful reactions with post-list Joe. I don’t think Dorothy has.
Matthew Davis
Interactions, not reactions. Although reactions too, I guess, come to think of it.
DrunkenNordmann
I mean, that still means Dorothy should have probably talked to Joyce first instead of what she’s doing right now.
thejeff
Nah, this is reasonable. Dorothy is wrong, since she doesn’t know Joe’s development, but given what she does know, it’s a good reaction.
Random832
Right, but she also apparently doesn’t trust Joyce enough to assume that the fact that she’s willing to spend time with him means there has been development. And doesn’t care enough to talk to her.
Doctor, as I am sure you have elucidated to more than one possessive alien/robot/alien robot, you cannot call dibs on a romantic partner because people are not objects.
Well, rather, you can, but it’s pretty crappy behavior.
Clearly its got nothing to do with Dorothy knowing what Joe is like and being concerned about his motives. Nope, must be that she’s secretly lusting after Joyce herself and doesnt want the competition.
Joe is barely two seconds into his atonement for his past behavior. There’s no guarantee this is nothing more than a passing infatuation for him that will leave her close friend hurt. You can see her suspicion transmute into rage with each passing frame and honestly, it’s totally warranted. After what Joyce went through, navigating the advances of someone who only sees her as a sex object won’t end well.
Vanessa
Yup. It’s been made quite clear that Dorothy has known Joe for many years now. He was her boyfriend’s best friend and she had a front row seat to his conquests and his bragging. It’s going to take Joe a while to prove that his intentions are wholesome.
Needfuldoer
But he doesn’t.
And Dorothy has no way to know that right now.
This is gonna get messy…
thejeff
There’s no reason for Dorothy to think it’s even an infatuation, rather than just Joe making his usual attempts to get into some girl’s pants.
Yes, this exactly. I’m confused by people reacting as if these are the terms that Dotty thinks in – they’re clearly meant to be an accusation against Joe.
Decidedly Orthogonal
You aren’t alone. Dorothy regards Joe through the lens *he* crafted. She is using his terminology to be sure he understands her “suggestion”.
Speaking to an audience using their language is a well-known method for trying to make yourself understood. Applying lingo beyond kenning of auditory perceivers degrokifies.
Clif
If you just now created degrokifies, you have my undying respect.
On account of I’m not intending to die (if the singularity gets here in time).
Schpoonman
Joe has been shitty and misogynistic for a very long time but he’s never been dishonest about his intentions, only about his prowess. Maybe in the past he’s played the angle of acting like he’s romantically interested to get partners but in the comic he’s been very clear that he’s looking for sexual partners first and romantic partners never.
Dorothy isn’t even giving him the opportunity to say “No, this is new and different,” and she’s not using his lens, she’s equating him to Ryan.
Shogeton
I think she did. That is what the ‘Do you like her?’ gives an opening for. Either a ‘I like her as a friend, I don’t intend to go any further’ or a ‘I genuinely want a romantic relation for her. This isn’t like anything before’. In the absence of such a thing, it is not unreasonable for Dorothy to react as she does.
Mark
Trouble is, this is new to Joe and he’s still working it out. He doesn’t know how to respond. IIRC he hasn’t actually told Joyce what he’s feeling — he’s not going to tell Dorothy first, even after he knows what he wants to say.
Shogeton
Yep. It’s entirely understandable that Joe isn’t just going to bare his heart to Dorothy. But it is also entirely understandable that, in the absence of said heart bearing, Dorothy will assume that Joe will follow the usual MO.
Sometimes a situation can be shitty and tragic even though everyone involved is currently acting decently.
Needfuldoer
He hasn’t given her a romantic, gushing speech about how she leaves him breathless, but he’s made his feelings known through a crack in his armor.
Also I wanted to point the do list existing, unprotected, during the time a predator was out that targeted Dorothy.
She is being rather chill in fact.
Needfuldoer
@khn0
Mark said “IIRC he hasn’t actually told Joyce what he’s feeling”. I pointed out that he got about as close as he can currently get to doing so.
khn0
@Needfuldoer
Thanks for the clarification!
I read Mark’s post like four times to be sure and still managed to misread it.
I present you my apologies for the remark.
Schpoonman
The comic format does interfere with our ability to tell how much time elapses between “Do you like her?” and “Find different prey,” but Dorothy doesn’t wait for an answer regardless if she immediately continues speaking or she waits 5 minutes while Joe’s brain restarts.
thejeff
There’s a beat panel, which suggests at least some noticeable passage of time.
Tan
> Joe has … never been dishonest about his intentions
He has though, to Joyce, in this comic. He absolutely misrepresented what he was looking for, in the face of extremely direct evidence that Joyce wasn’t looking for a sexual relationship, with the expectation that he could convince her otherwise and ‘break her in’. He considered it for Joyce’s own good.
Hof1991
If you grok something, why would you want to degrok it?
that is incredibly shortsighted. Joe has given off an extremely shitty vibe for most of the comic’s run time. I love him now, but his unnuanced meathead womanizer persona is all dotty has seen.
Matticus
And given that she’s known him since high school, she’s seen it for far longer than anyone else in the cast besides Danny. She knows what Joe is (or was, but she wasn’t there for his character development).
MisterJinKC
She’s also known him a long time. She knows that he doesn’t “trick” girls into thinking ge likes them to get laid. He’s alway been very upfront about what he’s looking for and doesn’t try to bully anyone into something they don’t want.
For her to assume he’s trying to get laid is understandable. For her to be this aggressive isn’t. He is not a rapist, or even close to it. He’s a horny guy who is honest and upfront about it. People need to stop shitting on him.
Fuzzy
When he first asked Joyce out she definitely wasn’t aware he was trying to fuck her.
JBento
True, but he didn’t lie to her in order to fuck her. Joe has always been upfront about “this is about sex, and that’s it”.
thejeff
Not really in that date scene. He asked her on a date, not for sex.
Of course it all blew up into Mike/Joyce violence before it could get very far, but at the start Joyce was definitely thinking in terms of relationship and he’d didn’t make it clear. He didn’t lie, but he also wasn’t upfront.
JBento
By that logic, Joyce also wasn’t upfront about wanting a relationship, so it’s a tie.
thejeff
What?
Shade
He literally made a list ranking women’s fuckability at one point, that’s like as objectifying women as you can get. He’s getting better but not everyone is required to forgive and just forget about how he used to be.
Lol haha don’t forget she knew him even before “the list”. She probably had to spend a lot of time with him in high school, listening to this jerk who was her boyfriend’s best friend, talk about all of his conquests and his opinions of women’s bodies. He has made quite the turn around since school started but she hasn’t seen any of that and she also hasn’t seen any of his wholesome friendship with Joyce.
I have to believe this is trolling. There’s no way that someone read this comic and got “Joe is a precious baby who never did anything misogynistic from it”… I really NEED to believe that, because otherwise this comments section is displaying a really worrying number of people who don’t think Joe’s previous actions were objectionable.
Which kind of suggests how those commenters view women, and it’s not a good look.
thejeff
There’s always been a subcurrent of “Joe did nothing wrong” around here.
So you’re just gonna gloss over the time he ranked every single woman he knows by fuckability? That’s a pretty big reason to truly think bad about him. Dorothy also knows him since their school days, one of the longest timeframes alongside Danny, so that Joe is probably still ingrained in her mind, and she hasn’t seen any of his wholesome turnaround. Only Amber and Joyce really know Joe can see women as anything other than prey
339 thoughts on “Hover”
Ana Chronistic
Silence is a valid option
if not always the best option
True Survivor
The great truth of Tell Tale games.
Lars
No, I won’t mute Strong Bads Cool Game For Attractive People. That would eliminate 80% of the fun.
Needfuldoer
Indeed it will!
Sam and Max has some good writing too.
Axel
woulda been the best option for dotty; yikes
Xujhan
One the one hand: yeah, yikes. Even if her concern is reasonable, trying to pick a fight with Joe about it isn’t. On the other hand: I remember being Dorothy’s age, and I certainly didn’t have the maturity to recognize that the diplomatic option was usually better than the dramatic one. She’s got her heart in the right place.
Clif
I have to believe Dorothy is in the right here. If Joe doesn’t have feelings for Joyce, and he’s giving Dorothy no reason to believe he does, then there’s no reason for diplomatic being around the bush.
Clif
* beating around the bush
Needfuldoer
It’s important to remember she hasn’t been around for any of his character growth, too. She’s operating on the assumption he’s still the same Joe she knew in high school. She wasn’t there to witness Rachel tear him down, the many heart-to-heart moments he’s shared with Joyce, their science classes together, or the art class ‘yesterday’. Something tells me this outing will end with Joyce a little bit more skeptical, Joe on the back foot, and Dorothy with egg on her face.
Dorothy should talk to Amber about this. It feels like that’s where we’re headed, since the story brought Joe and Amber into each others’ orbits, and she probably wouldn’t want to go to Danny. (Although, has she seen that he’s moved on yet? Would Dorothy reappearing potentially cause an issue with him and Sal? This could go a number of directions…)
Joshua Kronengold
?? Joe and Joyce have been on an OTP trajectory since she hired Mike to punch him. It’s not a false path.
Also, aren’t Joe and Amber step-siblings now?
Xujhan
Diplomacy should be the default option, not something you need a reason for. This strip demonstrates exactly why: if your first instinct is to come in guns blazing, you’ll end up hitting a lot of people who don’t actually deserve it.
Shade
Eh, given Joe’s track record which I don’t blame her for jumping straight to aggressive here, could she handle it better? Sure.
But I get it.
DrunkenNordmann
Here’s the thing – Joyce also knows Joe’s track record as well, yet she still chose to hang out with him.
Matthew Davis
The difference is that Joyce has had actual meaningful reactions with post-list Joe. I don’t think Dorothy has.
Matthew Davis
Interactions, not reactions. Although reactions too, I guess, come to think of it.
DrunkenNordmann
I mean, that still means Dorothy should have probably talked to Joyce first instead of what she’s doing right now.
thejeff
Nah, this is reasonable. Dorothy is wrong, since she doesn’t know Joe’s development, but given what she does know, it’s a good reaction.
Random832
Right, but she also apparently doesn’t trust Joyce enough to assume that the fact that she’s willing to spend time with him means there has been development. And doesn’t care enough to talk to her.
Ana Chronistic
I woulda said, “buh?”
Doctor_Who
Uh oh. Dotty called dibs.
The Wellerman
She can share. -_-
Sajuuk-Khar
Doctor, as I am sure you have elucidated to more than one possessive alien/robot/alien robot, you cannot call dibs on a romantic partner because people are not objects.
Well, rather, you can, but it’s pretty crappy behavior.
Reltzik
That’s not the face of a woman who is calling dibs, it’s just the face of a woman who wants to eat some taco.
GholaHalleck
Well that doesn’t change the tone of this topic at ALL now does it?
Librain
It’s the face of someone who is concerned about Joyce’s taco not being contaminated by sour cream?
… nope, not an improvement.
Amy
It is the face of someone who wants to keep the taco to herself, as it were.
ktbear
Clearly its got nothing to do with Dorothy knowing what Joe is like and being concerned about his motives. Nope, must be that she’s secretly lusting after Joyce herself and doesnt want the competition.
Clif
Hey, we all have our fantasies.
Juanoku
Oh ho ho, this’ll be fun
Sajuuk-Khar
“Fun” here means “an intersection of the discourses I am excited to see flip over and catch on fire in the driveway”
Sirksome
Calling Joyce prey might say something about Dorothy we’re not ready to talk about.
Sajuuk-Khar
It’s an insanely bad look! I get why Dotty is going there but wow! Shit is bad, sis! Retract!
Subjektivity
Joe is barely two seconds into his atonement for his past behavior. There’s no guarantee this is nothing more than a passing infatuation for him that will leave her close friend hurt. You can see her suspicion transmute into rage with each passing frame and honestly, it’s totally warranted. After what Joyce went through, navigating the advances of someone who only sees her as a sex object won’t end well.
Vanessa
Yup. It’s been made quite clear that Dorothy has known Joe for many years now. He was her boyfriend’s best friend and she had a front row seat to his conquests and his bragging. It’s going to take Joe a while to prove that his intentions are wholesome.
Needfuldoer
But he doesn’t.
And Dorothy has no way to know that right now.
This is gonna get messy…
thejeff
There’s no reason for Dorothy to think it’s even an infatuation, rather than just Joe making his usual attempts to get into some girl’s pants.
Caro
It seems mostly like an indication of how she views Joe than how she views Joyce- she sees him as someone who can only think in that predatory mindset
Sajuuk-Khar
Even given this, it’s a real crappy thing to say!
Jon
Yes, this exactly. I’m confused by people reacting as if these are the terms that Dotty thinks in – they’re clearly meant to be an accusation against Joe.
Decidedly Orthogonal
You aren’t alone. Dorothy regards Joe through the lens *he* crafted. She is using his terminology to be sure he understands her “suggestion”.
Speaking to an audience using their language is a well-known method for trying to make yourself understood. Applying lingo beyond kenning of auditory perceivers degrokifies.
Clif
If you just now created degrokifies, you have my undying respect.
On account of I’m not intending to die (if the singularity gets here in time).
Schpoonman
Joe has been shitty and misogynistic for a very long time but he’s never been dishonest about his intentions, only about his prowess. Maybe in the past he’s played the angle of acting like he’s romantically interested to get partners but in the comic he’s been very clear that he’s looking for sexual partners first and romantic partners never.
Dorothy isn’t even giving him the opportunity to say “No, this is new and different,” and she’s not using his lens, she’s equating him to Ryan.
Shogeton
I think she did. That is what the ‘Do you like her?’ gives an opening for. Either a ‘I like her as a friend, I don’t intend to go any further’ or a ‘I genuinely want a romantic relation for her. This isn’t like anything before’. In the absence of such a thing, it is not unreasonable for Dorothy to react as she does.
Mark
Trouble is, this is new to Joe and he’s still working it out. He doesn’t know how to respond. IIRC he hasn’t actually told Joyce what he’s feeling — he’s not going to tell Dorothy first, even after he knows what he wants to say.
Shogeton
Yep. It’s entirely understandable that Joe isn’t just going to bare his heart to Dorothy. But it is also entirely understandable that, in the absence of said heart bearing, Dorothy will assume that Joe will follow the usual MO.
Sometimes a situation can be shitty and tragic even though everyone involved is currently acting decently.
Needfuldoer
He hasn’t given her a romantic, gushing speech about how she leaves him breathless, but he’s made his feelings known through a crack in his armor.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/doodling/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/littlehearts/
khn0
@Needfuldoer
Dorothy wasn’t there
Also I wanted to point the do list existing, unprotected, during the time a predator was out that targeted Dorothy.
She is being rather chill in fact.
Needfuldoer
@khn0
Mark said “IIRC he hasn’t actually told Joyce what he’s feeling”. I pointed out that he got about as close as he can currently get to doing so.
khn0
@Needfuldoer
Thanks for the clarification!
I read Mark’s post like four times to be sure and still managed to misread it.
I present you my apologies for the remark.
Schpoonman
The comic format does interfere with our ability to tell how much time elapses between “Do you like her?” and “Find different prey,” but Dorothy doesn’t wait for an answer regardless if she immediately continues speaking or she waits 5 minutes while Joe’s brain restarts.
thejeff
There’s a beat panel, which suggests at least some noticeable passage of time.
Tan
> Joe has … never been dishonest about his intentions
He has though, to Joyce, in this comic. He absolutely misrepresented what he was looking for, in the face of extremely direct evidence that Joyce wasn’t looking for a sexual relationship, with the expectation that he could convince her otherwise and ‘break her in’. He considered it for Joyce’s own good.
Hof1991
If you grok something, why would you want to degrok it?
BarerMender
Probably true. I prefer to believe Dorothy is realizing she’s not a zero after all.
True Survivor
Those aren’t all freckles. She’s a vampire – run Joe you’ve gotten between her and blood!
Golden Yak
If nothing else, she’s assuming that’s what Joe’s view is, which is pretty shitty. Joe has never given anyone reason to think truly badly of him.
Jon
Joe has a long history of objectification and misogyny. Dorothy has not been around for his redemption arc.
Joshua Hollis Wright
that is incredibly shortsighted. Joe has given off an extremely shitty vibe for most of the comic’s run time. I love him now, but his unnuanced meathead womanizer persona is all dotty has seen.
Matticus
And given that she’s known him since high school, she’s seen it for far longer than anyone else in the cast besides Danny. She knows what Joe is (or was, but she wasn’t there for his character development).
MisterJinKC
She’s also known him a long time. She knows that he doesn’t “trick” girls into thinking ge likes them to get laid. He’s alway been very upfront about what he’s looking for and doesn’t try to bully anyone into something they don’t want.
For her to assume he’s trying to get laid is understandable. For her to be this aggressive isn’t. He is not a rapist, or even close to it. He’s a horny guy who is honest and upfront about it. People need to stop shitting on him.
Fuzzy
When he first asked Joyce out she definitely wasn’t aware he was trying to fuck her.
JBento
True, but he didn’t lie to her in order to fuck her. Joe has always been upfront about “this is about sex, and that’s it”.
thejeff
Not really in that date scene. He asked her on a date, not for sex.
Of course it all blew up into Mike/Joyce violence before it could get very far, but at the start Joyce was definitely thinking in terms of relationship and he’d didn’t make it clear. He didn’t lie, but he also wasn’t upfront.
JBento
By that logic, Joyce also wasn’t upfront about wanting a relationship, so it’s a tie.
thejeff
What?
Shade
He literally made a list ranking women’s fuckability at one point, that’s like as objectifying women as you can get. He’s getting better but not everyone is required to forgive and just forget about how he used to be.
Thag Simmons
are you sure about that?
Uly
I mean, I like Joe an awful lot, but he certainly has given people reason to think badly of him.
brionl
Particularly women-type people.
Vanessa
Lol haha don’t forget she knew him even before “the list”. She probably had to spend a lot of time with him in high school, listening to this jerk who was her boyfriend’s best friend, talk about all of his conquests and his opinions of women’s bodies. He has made quite the turn around since school started but she hasn’t seen any of that and she also hasn’t seen any of his wholesome friendship with Joyce.
Nova
I have to believe this is trolling. There’s no way that someone read this comic and got “Joe is a precious baby who never did anything misogynistic from it”… I really NEED to believe that, because otherwise this comments section is displaying a really worrying number of people who don’t think Joe’s previous actions were objectionable.
Which kind of suggests how those commenters view women, and it’s not a good look.
thejeff
There’s always been a subcurrent of “Joe did nothing wrong” around here.
Liara
So you’re just gonna gloss over the time he ranked every single woman he knows by fuckability? That’s a pretty big reason to truly think bad about him. Dorothy also knows him since their school days, one of the longest timeframes alongside Danny, so that Joe is probably still ingrained in her mind, and she hasn’t seen any of his wholesome turnaround. Only Amber and Joyce really know Joe can see women as anything other than prey
zee