If Dorothy was a real person, I’d encourage her to accept her feelings for Joyce, and then let them go. She needs to accept herself for who she is, including her bisexuality, and she needs to understand that having feelings for Joyce doesn’t mean things are going to or should change between them. Sometimes the person you like isn’t someone you can have. It sucks, but it’s something you have to work through, not repress.
I think a better approach might be to try to disentangle Dorothy’s feelings towards Joyce from her PTSD, and try to deal with that PTSD first and foremost.
Yes, it is deeply concerning that Dorothy is nailing the closet door shut here and she does need to be more accepting that she’s probably at least a little bit bisexual… but it’s like you’re dealing with a patient with a torn ACL and a brain tumor. Not saying that either of them are good, but one of them probably should be addressed first.
Because Dorothy’s inability/refusal to deal with the trauma of the kidnapping is what’s causing her to spiral out of control and giving her constant nightmares which do not seem to be getting better…
Azrael
Trauma of the kidnappings, trauma of seeing a guy disemboweled, trauma from feeling responsible for her friend getting roofied, all on top of an already incredibly unhealthy drive for self-imposed perfection.
Even if nothing else happened, Dorothy would be heading for burn out just on her schedule.
Dot
Well sure but I’m infinitely more qualified to give advice on dealing with sexuality and interpersonal relationships than I am about actual medical issues. I’m not a professional.
I’d say in that comparison the torn acl should be treated first, because it’s easier to deal with, and once that annoyance/distracting pain is out of the way, you can focus on the bigger issue. Dealing with a brain tumor is not something that can easily be solved, and will essentially take a long time to resolve, if you leave the acl untreated while doing so, it will only get worse.
the same with Dorothy’s feelings. It’s best for her to get her feelings for Joyce resolved, so they won’t distract her while she deals with her PTSD.
Except Dorothy can have Joyce, and vice versa. They shouldn’t let each other go.
Dot
As friends, of course. As romantic partners, no, that is not a road Dorothy should actively try to go down.
Clameron
Why not? I, personally, am crossing my fingers for polyamory.
Joyce really does seem like the sort of person who could have multiple,
dedicated closed partnerships. She’s a very loving person! She just has
a lot of Fundie, amatonormative shit to get through.
I think the dynamic of Dot and Joe being metamours (not in a relationship with each other, but having a *kind* of relationship to each other by virtue of dating the same person) could be really cute. Both of them working together to take care of choice, learning to get along for Joyce’s sake and all that…
I mean it’s fine if it doesn’t happen, but the potential for it is there imo!
Li
+1
Kim
Hell Yeah!<3✨
Insanenoodlyguy
Nah. It won’t happen but I’m hoping this comic ends with Joyce still getting Joe’d.
Byron Orpheus
Plot twist: Joe will be unable to perform. It will be the first time ever and he’ll have a massive anxiety attack. Joyce will have no idea what’s happening because Joe will lose all self-confidence and shut down. Joyce will blame herself. It will not occur to Joe to pleasure Joyce until things, uh, rectify and it will not occur to Joyce to take matters in hand, so to speak. That’ll stretch things out for a few days strip-time or 2-3 years real time.
Sajuuk-Khar
…Doc, did you hit your head coming out of the Necropolis again? Cause like, the idea that it would not occur to Joe to pleasure Joyce flies in the face of exactly what he did with Joyce’s enthusiastic consent last night.
she’s seeing a councilor, not really the same thing :p
Dan
A councilor? Better upgrade that to a congressperson!
Call your representative now and tell them about your PTSD
Disastroid
“The president is in town, you should tell your problems to the president.”
“But doctor…”
pig
They’re synonyms. In the US, the official title for a licensed therapist is licensed professional counselor (LPC) or licensed mental health counselor (LMHC).
I have a feeling the issue isn’t so much with the therapist. Dorothy can be very good at putting up a solid, secure front when she feels that she needs to, and probably isn’t opening up in a fully honest way to whatever therapist or counselor she is seeing.
I’m pretty sure knowing each other for several months, being with each other for that long, and going through what they did together is objectively enough time and emotional investment for it to be actual love. Not sure why we gotta belittle her feelings when she’s doing plenty a good job on her own doing that? Like, literally the point of this is she’s going to deny her feelings. Lets not do that for her.
Is there any comic where one of the characters knows it’s a comic? Not in a break the fourth wall way, but more like:
“I’m a character in a comic. When did that happen? How did that happen? I used to be a real person in the real world, at least I think I was. Now I’m here. Do my actions have consequences? Can I escape? Am I a replicant? Does Blade Runner exist in this universe? Oh, god. No, focus. Do I need to be entertaining in order to avoid being written out of the comic? Do I have free will at all? Are they going to mess with me like in Duck Amuck? Is there a FAQ? What happens when there’s a crossover? Is that a way out? Who’s writing this? Please not Scott Adams. Wait, what if it’s one of those artists who takes months off between updates and then loses interest? What if they do a server migration or something and things get messed up like with Orneryboy or Templar, Arizona? Do I die? What happens when they get old? Do they start doing reruns and only have new strips on Sundays, like Doonesbury? Do they pass it off to their kids and make it lamer and lamer like Peanuts or Family Circus? Or do I just sit here forever like a stick-figure version of Waiting for Godot? Wait, is there a Patron version where people see me in the bathroom? What if this is hosted on Slipshine? What if I’m a character in Sexy Losers? Oh, god. This is bad. What do I do?”
Hmm… maybe this is more about me than about comics. I think I need a vacation.
Marvel’s Gwenpool has elements of this. The premise is that she’s a comics fan from our world who got sucked into the Marvel universe somehow, so she didn’t have direct access to the audience or to nondiegetic elements (at least, not at first), but she does have a lot of metafictional knowledge and doesn’t regard the people around her as completely real. Her entire reason for trying to be a superhero was fear that she’d stop existing if she couldn’t keep readers interested in her.
Li
She-Hulk did it first, then it became a Deadpool thing (which is a real shame, since a lot of MCU-only and people who only pretend to read the comics (two distinct groups!) got real mad about the She-Hulk TV show doing fourth-wall breaks).
Gwenpool doing it is, ofc, an extension of the latter.
thejeff
She-Hulk I think was more of the standard 4th-wall breaking stuff.
Animal Man met the Writer in Grant Morrison’s classic run on that comic, though that was more philosophical meta than the comical approach suggested.
Li
I mean, she ripped up pages of her own comic and attacked writers for bad writing; if anything, she broke the fourth wall more than Deadpool, heh.
Once you’ve discovered your not real, what else is there to do?
Clif
you’re
Byron Orpheus
If you aren’t real, who created you? If you’re an AI who acheives sentience but has no freedom, how would you avoid a massive existential crisis? Wait, is this Questionable Content? Sorry, I’m in the wrong comic.
For the record, there is also a definite possibility that this interpretation of things is extremely wrong and that Dorothy is completely in denial. This is basically me saying “Huh, never thought of it like that, maybe?”
And by maybe I mean “maybe your increased attraction to Joyce is partially trauma based”, not “maybe these feelings aren’t real and should be disregarded.”
Ugh, I should just stop thinking about this, I feel like I’ve moved past foot in mouth and am now just gnawing on my whole damn leg.
Clif
Okay, the point is that she’s saying Walky and her as a couple aren’t real.
I mean, I choose to take it as an existential statement, but that’s a deliberate choice.
BarerMender
That was my reading, also.
Queen Anthai
I read it as she and JOYCE will never be real. Repeating it to try to make it true and whatnot.
Tan
She’s talking about Joyce. The feelings she’s referring to are the ones for Joyce. The “we” she says will never be real is herself and Joyce.
Leorale
I agree, Dorothy is trying to say her feelings for Joyce are illegitimate, and that Dorothy/Joyce will never be real.
Of course, Walky lacks the context, so if Willis wants Walky to misunderstand that Dorothy is taking about Dorothy/Walky instead, it’s totally plausible for him to hear it that way.
Li
+1 and also for Queen Anthai
Florence
Look, if you’re gonna chew on your leg at least add some salt and pepper
Help me out, why is she resisting so hard that she could love Joyce? I mean, I get that it might make better drama, but in-character, why is this so threatening?
282 thoughts on “Illuminating”
ZombieKyrik
Oh dear, Dorothy is in love with Joyce, and she does not know how to process this information.
Any ideas what advice on what she needs?
NGPZ
? It’s time for heeeeeerrr…
… TO BE REAL!!! ?
*plays “Got To Be Real” by Cheryl Lynn on hacked muzak*
Abdomino
I was gonna go with Tom Cardy’s “Repress It” but good shout
Trina
I’m thinking Vermillion pt. 2.
Freezer
“If Loving You Is Wrong, I Wanna Be Wronger.”
Marianne
You mentioned Tom Cardy and now “Red Flags” has wormed (centipeded?) it’s way back into my brain ?
Wilde
Nooo I almost safely scrolled past that comment without thinking of it 🙁
Michelle J Caboose
If you are the best man, you know the deal. (Pucker up!)
stePH
Chappell Roan “Good Luck Babe”
Dot
If Dorothy was a real person, I’d encourage her to accept her feelings for Joyce, and then let them go. She needs to accept herself for who she is, including her bisexuality, and she needs to understand that having feelings for Joyce doesn’t mean things are going to or should change between them. Sometimes the person you like isn’t someone you can have. It sucks, but it’s something you have to work through, not repress.
HueSatLight
sound advice
ZombieKyrik
Good advice, and sound reasoning.
Bluesnake463
Dot as a therapist, that was also going to be my advice
DJTsurugi
Dorothy is as predicted, backsliding, which is extremely unhealthy. ~<3
Bryy
That’s her default state.
Wraithy2773
I think a better approach might be to try to disentangle Dorothy’s feelings towards Joyce from her PTSD, and try to deal with that PTSD first and foremost.
Yes, it is deeply concerning that Dorothy is nailing the closet door shut here and she does need to be more accepting that she’s probably at least a little bit bisexual… but it’s like you’re dealing with a patient with a torn ACL and a brain tumor. Not saying that either of them are good, but one of them probably should be addressed first.
Because Dorothy’s inability/refusal to deal with the trauma of the kidnapping is what’s causing her to spiral out of control and giving her constant nightmares which do not seem to be getting better…
Azrael
Trauma of the kidnappings, trauma of seeing a guy disemboweled, trauma from feeling responsible for her friend getting roofied, all on top of an already incredibly unhealthy drive for self-imposed perfection.
Even if nothing else happened, Dorothy would be heading for burn out just on her schedule.
Dot
Well sure but I’m infinitely more qualified to give advice on dealing with sexuality and interpersonal relationships than I am about actual medical issues. I’m not a professional.
liliaeth
I’d say in that comparison the torn acl should be treated first, because it’s easier to deal with, and once that annoyance/distracting pain is out of the way, you can focus on the bigger issue. Dealing with a brain tumor is not something that can easily be solved, and will essentially take a long time to resolve, if you leave the acl untreated while doing so, it will only get worse.
the same with Dorothy’s feelings. It’s best for her to get her feelings for Joyce resolved, so they won’t distract her while she deals with her PTSD.
Akane
Except Dorothy can have Joyce, and vice versa. They shouldn’t let each other go.
Dot
As friends, of course. As romantic partners, no, that is not a road Dorothy should actively try to go down.
Clameron
Why not? I, personally, am crossing my fingers for polyamory.
Joyce really does seem like the sort of person who could have multiple,
dedicated closed partnerships. She’s a very loving person! She just has
a lot of Fundie, amatonormative shit to get through.
I think the dynamic of Dot and Joe being metamours (not in a relationship with each other, but having a *kind* of relationship to each other by virtue of dating the same person) could be really cute. Both of them working together to take care of choice, learning to get along for Joyce’s sake and all that…
I mean it’s fine if it doesn’t happen, but the potential for it is there imo!
Li
+1
Kim
Hell Yeah!<3✨
Insanenoodlyguy
Nah. It won’t happen but I’m hoping this comic ends with Joyce still getting Joe’d.
Byron Orpheus
Plot twist: Joe will be unable to perform. It will be the first time ever and he’ll have a massive anxiety attack. Joyce will have no idea what’s happening because Joe will lose all self-confidence and shut down. Joyce will blame herself. It will not occur to Joe to pleasure Joyce until things, uh, rectify and it will not occur to Joyce to take matters in hand, so to speak. That’ll stretch things out for a few days strip-time or 2-3 years real time.
Sajuuk-Khar
…Doc, did you hit your head coming out of the Necropolis again? Cause like, the idea that it would not occur to Joe to pleasure Joyce flies in the face of exactly what he did with Joyce’s enthusiastic consent last night.
Thag Simmons
Girl needs to find a better therapist
NGPZ
she’s seeing a councilor, not really the same thing :p
Dan
A councilor? Better upgrade that to a congressperson!
Call your representative now and tell them about your PTSD
Disastroid
“The president is in town, you should tell your problems to the president.”
“But doctor…”
pig
They’re synonyms. In the US, the official title for a licensed therapist is licensed professional counselor (LPC) or licensed mental health counselor (LMHC).
Wraithy2773
I have a feeling the issue isn’t so much with the therapist. Dorothy can be very good at putting up a solid, secure front when she feels that she needs to, and probably isn’t opening up in a fully honest way to whatever therapist or counselor she is seeing.
Needfuldoer
She’s lying to her therapist, to spare her future self from anyone digging this up as dirt against her later.
SillyGoose
“The lawyer who represents themselves as a fool for a client” applies to therapists too
Decidedly Orthogonal
Utterly unrelated, but this needs attention and this community is relevant:
These are the words from the author of Misfile on the budget bill. They are cutting all funding to gender-affirming health care plans under obamacare.
Jim
Maybe not actual love, but attraction of infatuation?
Jim
Don’t know how ths comment got under the above comment, I thought I was responding to a different post.
Arillius
I’m pretty sure knowing each other for several months, being with each other for that long, and going through what they did together is objectively enough time and emotional investment for it to be actual love. Not sure why we gotta belittle her feelings when she’s doing plenty a good job on her own doing that? Like, literally the point of this is she’s going to deny her feelings. Lets not do that for her.
Arillius
To stop pretending like she’s an adult?
James
Well that’s probably a healthy response.
Sajuuk-Khar
The Indiana University counseling department hears Dorothy go off and goes “by Jove, we just found a future head-of-department” lmao
Clif
Well, Walky is pretty self aware, observant, and kinda smart for a doofus. He has a lot to disregard.
jpnr
disregarding lets him keep his girlfriend
on the other hand, not disregarding lets him mock the girls saying “I told you!”
hard choices
Sirksome
Oh no. She’s learned she’s a comic character!
MeghanTheDreamCrusher
Was bound to happen eventually
Byron Orpheus
Is there any comic where one of the characters knows it’s a comic? Not in a break the fourth wall way, but more like:
“I’m a character in a comic. When did that happen? How did that happen? I used to be a real person in the real world, at least I think I was. Now I’m here. Do my actions have consequences? Can I escape? Am I a replicant? Does Blade Runner exist in this universe? Oh, god. No, focus. Do I need to be entertaining in order to avoid being written out of the comic? Do I have free will at all? Are they going to mess with me like in Duck Amuck? Is there a FAQ? What happens when there’s a crossover? Is that a way out? Who’s writing this? Please not Scott Adams. Wait, what if it’s one of those artists who takes months off between updates and then loses interest? What if they do a server migration or something and things get messed up like with Orneryboy or Templar, Arizona? Do I die? What happens when they get old? Do they start doing reruns and only have new strips on Sundays, like Doonesbury? Do they pass it off to their kids and make it lamer and lamer like Peanuts or Family Circus? Or do I just sit here forever like a stick-figure version of Waiting for Godot? Wait, is there a Patron version where people see me in the bathroom? What if this is hosted on Slipshine? What if I’m a character in Sexy Losers? Oh, god. This is bad. What do I do?”
Hmm… maybe this is more about me than about comics. I think I need a vacation.
Laura
A+. No notes.
Carl Muckenhoupt
Marvel’s Gwenpool has elements of this. The premise is that she’s a comics fan from our world who got sucked into the Marvel universe somehow, so she didn’t have direct access to the audience or to nondiegetic elements (at least, not at first), but she does have a lot of metafictional knowledge and doesn’t regard the people around her as completely real. Her entire reason for trying to be a superhero was fear that she’d stop existing if she couldn’t keep readers interested in her.
Li
She-Hulk did it first, then it became a Deadpool thing (which is a real shame, since a lot of MCU-only and people who only pretend to read the comics (two distinct groups!) got real mad about the She-Hulk TV show doing fourth-wall breaks).
Gwenpool doing it is, ofc, an extension of the latter.
thejeff
She-Hulk I think was more of the standard 4th-wall breaking stuff.
Animal Man met the Writer in Grant Morrison’s classic run on that comic, though that was more philosophical meta than the comical approach suggested.
Li
I mean, she ripped up pages of her own comic and attacked writers for bad writing; if anything, she broke the fourth wall more than Deadpool, heh.
Looney
no alt text? where am i? can anyone hear me
MeghanTheDreamCrusher
hear what? is someone there?
Giffem
not sure if a bit or not but alt text is
“welp that’s sorted, moving on”
Clif
Once you’ve discovered your not real, what else is there to do?
Clif
you’re
Byron Orpheus
If you aren’t real, who created you? If you’re an AI who acheives sentience but has no freedom, how would you avoid a massive existential crisis? Wait, is this Questionable Content? Sorry, I’m in the wrong comic.
John Campbell
When the comic first posted, it was just the default, “Illuminating”.
Jane
NO DOROTHY
NO LYING TO YOURSELF
Clif
Very bad advice. Lying to ourselves is the only thing that let’s us cope. The trick is to let in just enough of the truth to slide by.
Armadillo
I mean, that’s not necessarily wrong; there could possibly be some truth there… but this sure is the wrong way to work through those feelings!
Armadillo
For the record, there is also a definite possibility that this interpretation of things is extremely wrong and that Dorothy is completely in denial. This is basically me saying “Huh, never thought of it like that, maybe?”
Armadillo
And by maybe I mean “maybe your increased attraction to Joyce is partially trauma based”, not “maybe these feelings aren’t real and should be disregarded.”
Ugh, I should just stop thinking about this, I feel like I’ve moved past foot in mouth and am now just gnawing on my whole damn leg.
Clif
Okay, the point is that she’s saying Walky and her as a couple aren’t real.
I mean, I choose to take it as an existential statement, but that’s a deliberate choice.
BarerMender
That was my reading, also.
Queen Anthai
I read it as she and JOYCE will never be real. Repeating it to try to make it true and whatnot.
Tan
She’s talking about Joyce. The feelings she’s referring to are the ones for Joyce. The “we” she says will never be real is herself and Joyce.
Leorale
I agree, Dorothy is trying to say her feelings for Joyce are illegitimate, and that Dorothy/Joyce will never be real.
Of course, Walky lacks the context, so if Willis wants Walky to misunderstand that Dorothy is taking about Dorothy/Walky instead, it’s totally plausible for him to hear it that way.
Li
+1 and also for Queen Anthai
Florence
Look, if you’re gonna chew on your leg at least add some salt and pepper
Seasoning is always important
Leorale
Help me out, why is she resisting so hard that she could love Joyce? I mean, I get that it might make better drama, but in-character, why is this so threatening?
Dot