196

Joyless
Posted on July 3, 2022 by David M Willis

196 thoughts on “Joyless”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    this sounds like the worst torture, being either one of them

    I mean, HOSTING A PARTY, UGH, sounds like EXTROVERT activity!

    1. Mr D

      Today was my birthday and I ran out of spoons. All out of spoons, I say, I had to be a GOOD HOST, ew.

      1. The Wellerman

        sorry to hear that bruh ?

        still tho, happy birthday! ?

      2. True Survivor

        Happy Birthday to you.
        This strip is blue.
        May your spoons return someday.
        Happy Birthday to you.

      3. Laura

        It’s Mr Ds birthday, we wish you many more.
        Health and wealth and spoons by the score!
        So cut the cake and let’s eat some more.
        Happy birthday to you!

      4. jeffepp

        Spoons are a myth perpetuated by people with way too much energy. I haven’t has any for as long as I can remember.

        That was exhausting, I need a nap.

      5. Potatamoto

        Damn you, Sackville-D’s!

      6. Psychie

        My suggestion is to make sure to invite a spoony bard next time, we are, in fact, full of spoons (feel free to check!) and go out of our way to share, especially when there is a dire need such as you had.

      7. Needfuldoer

        We’ll get you some more spoons for next year.

    2. Taffy

      Hosting parties is a lot easier online. I can draw like a 30-player crowd and be just fine. Ten people IRL is fucking exhausting however.

      1. The Wellerman

        FUCK. RIGHT?

    3. Masumi

      Which is why my style of hosting is ‘sofa is here, kitchen is there, help yourselves’ ^^’

      1. The Wellerman

        Holy woah, BRILLIANT! Thanks! You’re a life saver!

    4. Decidedly Orthogonal

      All aboard ths S.S. All Hallows Joycerrah

  2. Doctor_Who

    Spooky Sarah Skeletons
    Send rainbows down your spine
    Pouty Joyces set the tone
    So Sarah’s glee can hide

    1. True Survivor

      *clap clap clap*

    2. Deanatay

      We’re so sorry, Sarah-ton
      You hate to be understood
      You want to anti-socialize
      But Joyce’s happy ‘tude

  3. The Wellerman

    Sorry all I can think of is how cute Joyce looks in that outfit! ?

    I could just eat her up right now! ?

    *plays “Fichtl’s Lied” by Die Woodies on the hacked muzak*

  4. alongcameaspider

    Joyce intentionally playing to other people’s misconceptions about her is my favorite Dumbing of Age gag

    1. The Wellerman

      When life gives you lemons, make lemonade!

      Better yet, squeeze them in life’s eyes!!!!

      1. Dafydd

        Make life take the lemons back! Demand to see life’s manager!! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons!!!

        1. The Wellerman

          YEAAAAH!!!!!! He’s saying what we’re all thinking!!!! ?

        2. vlademir1

          Literally just quoted that bit from Portal 2 (right through exploding lemons) at a work friend earlier. Turned out he’d never played either game, which made me sad. But hey, I’m still alive.

        3. alongcameaspider

          They just re-released both games on the Switch (and maybe other platforms, not sure) you should encourage him to check them out, they still hold up as good puzzle games today

      2. Laura

        When life gives you lemons,
        take the lemons.
        Hey look! Lemons!
        https://asofterworld.com/index.php?id=985

        1. PirateTawnee

          I miss ASW so much, but I’m glad Joey and Emily are still doing stuff they love.

        2. Laura

          I just finished reading Malagash and Overqualified. Joey’s a tough nut to crack, for me. There’s so much misogynistic violence and degradation in his work — and one gets the impression that it’s not all told ironically. And yet there is also genuine caring and feminist undercurrent at the same time. Makes it difficult to recommend his work, despite how great it is.

          I haven’t seen Emily’s recent work — any pointers on where to find it? I keep looking for I Blame the Sea but it appears not to be sold anymore.

        3. epitome of incomprehensibility

          Emily Horne’s website mentions an academic book she wrote called The Inspection House: https://www.emilyhorne.ca/writing

          Books by Joey Comeau I read: Lockpick Pornography and It’s Too Late To Say I’m Sorry. Lockpick Pornography seemed kind of violent and the plot was a bit random – maybe intentionally, maybe just from inexperience. But it was the first book I read to have a trans man as a character.

          I loved It’s Too Late to Say I’m Sorry, but it seems tougher to obtain, maybe since short story books are less popular than novels (e.g. my trouble trying to find a copy of Ursula K. LeGuin’s Compass Rose). Which I get, in that you get to stay in one “world” with a novel, but sometimes I just want multiple worlds. Or books of interconnected stories! Those are cool too.

        4. Laura

          Thanks for the reference and rec! I’ll check them out!
          I’ve read Lockpick Pornography and We All Had It Coming. We All Had It Coming is even more violent, and Overqualified is the most blatantly misogynistic. But Malagash is pure lovely. Tatamagouche seems scarier so far, even though it’s a sequel. So yeah, it’s a mixed bag. Good to see trans characters as something other than clowns or serial killers — breaking out of the tropes. Just seems like some of it was part of the author himself working out his own taboo thoughts on paper.

        5. Needfuldoer

          When life gives you lemons, don’t make lemonade! Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don’t want your damn lemons; what am I supposed to do with these?!

  5. Stephen Bierce

    Continuing the themery

    1. The Wellerman

      Aaaaaaah!!! PERFECT ?

      Thank you Mr. Bierce!

      1. Stephen Bierce

        FWIW, my favorite property in the entire horror genre.

  6. Sirksome

    The worst part of this flashback blue nightmare is I can’t tell what kind of soft drinks they’re serving. Pepsi, grape soda? It’s madness!

    1. Doctor_Who

      I believe Joyce is a fan of Sprite, even denouncing other, near-identical, lemon-lime soda brands. So you can bet on Sprite.

    2. CrazyJ

      Sprite and RC Cola.

    3. Cattleprod

      I also had a moment of thinking Joyce was wearing a sleeveless dress with gloves because the sleeves and skin looked similar enough.

    4. Thag Simmons

      I assume the lighter of the two is Sprite.

    5. Yumi

      It’s Faygo Rock & Rye. The blue tint was there to protect you from knowing this.

    6. The Wellerman

      Even outside the flashbacks in full color, all the sodas the cast ever drank were in opaque containers.

      Coincidence? I think NOT!!!!

    7. Proxiehunter

      Grape Pepsi.

      1. Yumi

        Joyce took an empty bottle to a Pepsi Spire and could not resist the call of chaos.

        (I had to look up if Pepsi had an equivalent to the Coca-Cola Freestyle.)

        1. Taffy

          They’re called fucking Spires? That’s so ominous, is an ancient seer named Theresa operating them?

    8. True Survivor

      All soft drinks are madness. Its carbon dioxide dissolved into acidic sugar water. Coke is basically a liquid metaphor for modern consumerism that gives you diabetes.

      1. Devin

        It was an even better metaphor back when it contained actual cocaine, but even metaphors are subject to entropy I guess.

      2. khn0

        a metaphor or a synecdoche?

    9. Suet

      Apropos of nothing, it better be Pepsi Blue.

      And Dr. Pepper, just cause it tastes autumnal

    10. GeekyWarrior

      For me it’s the costumes all muted blue. I love costumes!

  7. AGV

    That won’t necessarily last

  8. Nono

    I can’t guess, is this before or after atheism Joyce?

    1. C.T. Phipps

      The Browns were not Halloween hating Christians. Which is apparently a bridge too far for the gun toting Trumpists.

      1. Bryy

        If I am remembering correctly, something happened with Jordan Brown at Halloween?

      2. Mano308gts

        Correction.

        The Browns did not *start out as* Halloween-hating Christians. By the time Joyce was old enough to go trick-or-treating, her mother had taken issue with whole thing, and it was only the monumental efforts of Joyce’s older siblings, arguing in her favor, that permitted her to have Halloween.

    2. Bryy

      This is post-kidnapping (and she did just say “Jesus Reasons”), so I’m assuming this is the very start.

      1. Laura

        “dumb Jesus reasons,” no less.

    3. Reltzik

      This is Joyce 2 weeks into being an atheist, if you draw the line at the first Sunday she didn’t go to church.

    4. Keulen

      I’m pretty sure she was an atheist by this point, but only just barely perhaps.

  9. Wraithy2773

    …

    She’s dressed as Anna from Frozen, isn’t she?

    1. Taffy

      Yes. Definitely.

    2. Yumi

      I’m trying to find what look of Anna’s you think she looks like, but I’m coming up empty.

      Anyway, she’s Rapunzel from Tangled.

      1. Proxiehunter

        That fits. Intentional commentary on her mother or subconscious on her part I wonder?

        1. The Wellerman

          Maybe she just likes Disney films? Just a thought?

        2. Proxiehunter

          I’m sure she loves them. But there are plenty of Disney characters she could have chosen to dress as who don’t have horrible mothers that remind me of Carol.

          That was 100% a deliberate choice of costume by Willis. The only question is how deliberate it is on Joyce’s part.

        3. BBCC

          She wasn’t allowed to watch Disney animated movies because they promoted happiness without God’s love.

          I wish I was kidding.

        4. Yumi

          I wonder if Joyce was allowed to watch Tangled growing up or not. I mean, I know Mother Gothel was awful, but she wasn’t Rapunzel’s real mother, so maybe it was allowed?

        5. James

          That would imply that Carol was self-aware enough to see herself in Gothel.

        6. Yumi

          What would imply that, it being banned or not being banned? Frozen wasn’t allowed because it “promotes a culture of thinking your parents can be wrong about what they think is best for you.” So if Mother Gothel was just seen as a mother who’s in the wrong, that would be banned. However, if, since Rapunzel was actually taken away from her parents by Mother Gothel, it could be that Mother Gothel is the “corrupting influence” of the world or whatever, and parents are good and want to protect/save you from that.

          Honestly, I think Carol would just be repeating the talking points of her church and social groups, no self-awareness needed either way.

        7. Limons

          If I remember, she wasn’t allowed to watch a lot of Disney animated movies

        8. Reltzik

          Rapunzel ran away with a boy who was a complete stranger. So, no.

        9. BBCC

          Disney promoted happiness without god’s love, so no animated Disney for her.

          Parent Trap was allowed though, presumably because the divorced couple reunites.

        10. Yumi

          https://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/hyperventilating-2/

          Ah, yeah, forgot that one. My working theory was that Joyce had been allowed the “older” Disney movies (aka, anything that her parents had seen growing up) but wasn’t allowed any of the “newer” Disney movies because they were “suddenly” too progressive or not just fun stories or whatever.

          I have seen a lot of people like that IRL– whatever media they grew up with was fine, but modern mainstream things are too ~whatever~. Like, just because you didn’t get the message of the media you grew up with doesn’t mean there wasn’t one.

        11. Leorale

          No way that this was subconscious. She and Becky weren’t allowed to watch Frozen as children, because it implied your parents might be wrong sometimes. So Joyce must’ve binged Disney more recently, and she related to the girl in the tower with the abusive gaslighting mother. It’s great.

        12. Reltzik

          They watched Frozen at the party Becky put together for Joyce.

        13. Needfuldoer

          Years ago, there was a one-shot of Joyce dressed as Rapunzel where she said she and Becky snuck out to watch Tangled without their parents knowing. The irony was not lost on her.

          Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find it. Curse you, transient nature of modern social media!

        14. BBCC

          It was a pic Willis drew for Halloween a few years ago. Not sure if that line was canon or not, but yeah, based on that and a couple other things, doesn’t sound like Tangled was allowed.

      2. Jamie

        … oh geez. oh wow.

  10. DailyBrad

    I like these two, even if both of them have some serious burrs that need filing. But they’re like 18-20, of course they do.

  11. lia

    theyre so cute here

    1. The Wellerman

      right? ?

      1. Clif

        And Scrutable.

  12. Pocky

    You know; everything being blue makes me realize it was a missed opportunity to not go for a spooky old-timey horror film filter, to fit the Halloween spirit.

    Oh, and how this is all going to lead to shocking and terrible revaluations.

    1. Clif

      Maybe we’ll even learn what goes on in the rooms we don’t talk about.

      1. Needfuldoer

        We’ll get a Muppet Babies pastiche where they open the door to reveal a clip from an old, public domain horror movie like Nosferatu.

  13. Rabisch

    Yep! Sarah looks so happy that’s almost impossible to recognise her! Joyce is a very good friend.

  14. BBCC

    Sarah thinking of things that bring her joy as emotional weak points is so in character and so incredibly sad

    1. Arianod

      Anything that brings you joy is a thing that they can take from you!

  15. Yumi

    One time when I was in high school, my mom took me and a friend to the theater to see Tangled. When we got there, though, it was sold out. So we saw Black Swan instead, which was…different.

    Never did end up watching Tangled. Heard good things.

    1. Sporky

      For some reason all I could think of when I saw this post is The Black Parade opening LOL

    2. Schpoonman

      The first time I saw Tangled was in early 2014 after being out of the Disney loop for quite a long while. I watched it once a day, every day, for the next week straight.

  16. Dafydd

    So let me see…Sarah is dressed as Mike, right?

    What, too soon?

    1. Reltzik

      We don’t know exactly when Mike died, because he entered the timeskip in a coma. But at this point he’s been dead for 2 weeks or less. (Or perhaps hasn’t died yet.) It takes longer than that for decomposition to reduce a human corpse to a skeleton.

      In other words? Yes. Too soon.

    2. Amós Batista

      *Devil appears and gives train tickets* First class?

  17. Ty34er

    Do you think that Willis draws these in color and then adds a filter or just uses the blue scale?

    1. Dara

      …omg

      this is some galaxy brain and I would be not remotely surprised to find out you’re right.

    2. The Wellerman

      If he does draw them in color first, he doesn’t shade.

      I actually played a lot with Willis’s blue palette myself when I was making Joyce’s Nightmare, and found that the blue scale only has like five or seven luminosity values the entire time while the normal color scheme on the other hand has luminosity all over the place.

      Most likely just uses blue scale.

    3. JessWitt

      I checked his Twitter, the concept art for Joyce and Sarah is varying shades of blue (plus black).

      https://twitter.com/damnyouwillis/status/1543267504436301829

      Click on Joyce’s image for the full effect.

    4. Thag Simmons

      Monoscale colouring is easier than doing full colouring, and these flashbacks have simpler shading, so it’s simpler to just do them in bluescale.

  18. Suet

    There’s always a fine line between RBF and Negative Nancy in Sarah. Millimeters, in fact.

    Barefoot? Outside? Hope she won’t be ♪ walking on, walking on broken glasssss ♫

    1. Laura

      What is RBF?

      1. Jamie

        Google says “resting b**** face”, and that fits.

        1. Suet

          It is Resting Bongo Face. Neutral faces that look like they’re already mad at anyone.

        2. Laura

          Got it. Thank you!

    2. Needfuldoer

      Broken glass isn’t the huge problem everyone seems to think it is.

      1. Taffy

        It’s what the streets and sidewalks are made out of, what do you mean?

  19. LiterallyJustSomeGuy

    “Nobody’s going to think this party was your idea. If anyone asks, I’ll tell them that this party was your idea.”

    1. alongcameaspider

      I mean yes but not for “having a Halloween party” purposes but for “antagonizing your Jesus freak roommate” purposes

    2. Jamie

      “What you said, but not sarcastically?”

    3. Dandi Andi

      More, “Don’t worry, Sarah. Everyone is already convinced that you’re a joyless misanthrope. Nobody’s going to think you unironically enjoy Halloween. But in the unlikely event that someone becomes suspicious, I’ll be sure to tell them that you’re only doing this to annoy me.”

  20. DeadGuyKai

    Why is Sarah dressed like John Entwistle circa 1968? /s

  21. Florence

    Total girlfriends right here

    1. The Wellerman

      Right!?!?!

      Speaking of which, as a genderfluid neurofluid, I’m currently an autistic girl.

      Can I get a what what!?! ?

      What’s going on down under anyway?

      1. The Wellerman

        Sorry, just super excited for the Halloween arc. ?

        Anyway wassup?

      2. Florence

        What what!!!! Sounds good!

        It is okay here, life is life

        The vibes between Joyce and Sarah are getting a little too cute and blushing to just be friends to me. It lines up with my bi Joyce theory at least.

        1. The Wellerman

          ???

          *plays “Boogie Wonderland” by Earth Wind and Fire*

  22. Lingo

    Oh gosh, I hope this whole storyline is not in flashback blue. If for no other reason than the fact that the costumes will be much less cute!

    1. Needfuldoer

      I hope it transitions to the desaturated colors we saw during the extended gas station incident flashback.

  23. Bryy

    53 more days.

  24. PirateTawnee

    Not sure how anyone can tell if either of them are happy right now. They both seem pretty blue to me.

    *gets coat*

    1. epitome of incomprehensibility

      Ba-dum-tish!

    2. khn0

      well if you must go, cyan-ara…

  25. Bagge

    I love, love, love Joyce’s outfit

    1. Taffy

      What I wanna know is, where’s the caveman how is she walking barefoot on that dorm carpet without having an entire conniption?

      1. Needfuldoer

        It’s her dorm carpet.

        1. Taffy

          That actually makes a lot of sense.

  26. Francesco

    I get the memory filter from 80s sitcoms, but I really, really wish it wasn’t all blue all the time all the same.

  27. autogatos

    Aw Joyce is dressed as Rapunzel isn’t she?

    1. epitome of incomprehensibility

      Yes! At least that’s what other people said. At first I was thinking someone from Frozen, since Joyce mentioned the movie before, but the crisscross threads in the front seem more Rapunzel-like.

      1. Nova

        Yeah, in the concept art (linked elsewhere in this thread – also on Willis’ twitter) Joyce is sporting a frying pan and a fuckface to go with her outfit. Definitely Rapunzel.

  28. Laura

    New game: What is your favorite Halloween snack, game, or/and costume?

    1. Laura

      Snack: caramel candy apples. And Reese’s Pieces peanut butter cups. Almond joys and coconut mounds are pretty amazing too, though.
      Game: bobbing for apples.
      Costume: I once went to grade school dressed as Anne Boleyn for Halloween, “With ‘er ‘ead tucked underneath ‘er arm,” as the song goes.

    2. The Wellerman

      Snickers, almond joys and milky ways. ?

      Games: spooky stories maybe? Tho mostly just playing horror games by myself, Amnesia and Slender are my fav!

      Costume: Alien Parasite for convenience (I always wear this hoodie), Xenomorph for scare factor, GIR from invader Zim one time ?

    3. Opus the Poet

      Snack: peanut butter kisses
      Game: spin the bottle
      Costume: I have a flight suit, flight helmet, and ejection harness for Maverick from the first Top Gun movie, made from actual 1980’s Military Surplus.

      1. Laura

        Ooh, way cool! Mee-YOW! Wow!

    4. anon

      everlasting gobstopbbers are good, idk if it’s b/c they’re not as popular/stocked as much aroudn here but other than maybe nerds, i rarely see any “willie wonka” brand candies outside of halloween

      1. Laura

        I know, right!? Everlasting gobstoppers for EVER! ;-9

  29. Mr. Random

    I feel a massive wave of deja vu.
    Is this referencing something?

    1. The Wellerman

      This must be the SAUCE:

      https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/03-sometimes-the-sky-was-so-far-away/devilsnight/

      1. Queezle

        Thank you for linking that strip. Now it brighten a second day for me. It is so cute.

        1. Laura

          What I don’t get is that strip took place before Blaine bailed Toedad out of jail. Did Sarah dress up as a skeleton and decorate her door for Halloween on more than one occasion?

        2. Yumi

          Did she dress up as a skeleton more than once? Yes. Did she decorate her door for Halloween more than once? Nothing we’ve seen indicates that. She started decorating it a little, then decorated it more, then she got kidnapped, and now here she is at the Halloween she had previously been preparing for.

        3. Laura

          OK, that makes sense Yumi. Thanks!

        4. Yumi

          It is kind of confusing in that we got SO CLOSE to Halloween (well, not really, but it was building!) and then we shot past it and now we’re going back.

  30. Tan

    Tell them it was a double-fakeout. That Sarah intended the party to torment Joyce, but in fact that was Joyce’s plan all along so she could get a party.

  31. APersonAmI

    … Oh god, panel five is horrifying. What is happening in Joyce’s mouth!? That’s too much teeth! No one has that much teeth! Smile that wide, we should be seeing more gums than teeth, but it’s all teeth! What eldritch horror is this!?

    1. hazel

      Acktually it’s one tooth.
      /j

    2. Tan

      Hope this helps. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/understudy/

  32. Hazel

    Aww, Joyce makes a cute princess.

  33. Jim

    This may be incorrect, but I would think that Joyce being able to read Sarah’s mood would contraindicate Joyce being autistic.

    1. miri

      Not all autistic people are incapable of reading everyone’s moods all the time. I was only bad at it when I was a kid.

      1. ischemgeek

        Incorrect.

        Cognitive empathy as applied to NT people is impaired in autistic people, not absent. (Interestingly more recent research suggests that autistic people have no difficulty in reading each other).

        Meaning Joyce can learn to read non autistic people’s expressions and moods given enough exposure.

        1. ischemgeek

          Miri, sorry this was supposed to be a reply to OP.

        2. Laura

          Some spectrumites or NDs (like me) have the empathy dialed all the way out past 10 to 11, to the point where it gets painful, and yet STILL have trouble with the social sonar. Empathy does not always mean social skills. (e.g. — apologies to anyone offended by the use of the word “spectrum” — just the term I first got to know.)

        3. Laura

          Oh, sorry, yes, that was also supposed to be a reply to OP. Apologies!

        4. Laura

          I think there can be a degree of fluidity to the way neurological uniqueness expresses itself sometimes, with the understanding of course that everyone experiences their brains in their own ways and I can only speak for myself.

          But, like, for example, I find that my mood improves with rest and medication and a little sunshine and exercise and quiet companionship. John Elder Robison found that TMS altered his perception. (https://jerobison.blogspot.com/2016/03/switched-on-and-autistic-feeling.html?m=1) Dina learned through years of careful practice how to read and follow social cues. Joyce learned quickly how to “go along to get along,” and is now learning to assert herself without trying to control others, and is advocating more for her own needs and values. What used to be called “Aspie traits” (when I was last active in the community, 15-20 years ago) can harden or soften with time, environment, exposure, and practice. I’m not saying one can suddenly flip a switch and no longer have a specific neurological or neurodevelopmental condition. I only mean that as humans we adapt over time. I had a TBI and it changed me a lot. Some people get long COVID and it changes their mental perceptions and skills. Not everyone can change everything about themselves, and I don’t mean to minimize anyone’s personal experience. I do truly apologize if my clumsy words are inadequate or hurtful. I am clumsy and often say the wrong thing. All I mean is that — just because a person feels that their strengths and weaknesses may change over time doesn’t make them any less true to who they really are.

          …Does that make some sense? Words don’t always come out the way I mean them to, so I am sorry if this doesn’t make much sense.

        5. Laura

          Apologies for making things about my own personal experience. It’s just a frame of reference that comes easy to hand. It’s just that I perceive that The Wellerman had a lot of difficulty and personal pain recently even just saying the word, autistic, due to the Wellerman’s own personal life experiences and how that word was used around the Wellerman when The Wellerman was growing up. So to see The Wellerman even using the word without quotes, even though it’s in ways that others disagree with or that doesn’t ring true to others’ experience… I mean, I think it’s progress? I know this is a whole huge can of worms and I don’t mean to stir the pot. (Mmm… cauldron full of bubbling worms… how Halloweeny!) I just mean that even opening up the dialogue can be progress, even if one’s language doesn’t sit right with others. It’s all a process, and process happens a bit at a time sometimes.

          Sorry if that came across as condescending or dismissive of concerns! I’m just advocating for gentleness with each other. We’re all bruised and learning.

        6. The Wellerman

          Thank you for sharing your experiences Laura, means the world to me.

          Totally feel you on having so much empathy that it even hurts sometimes.

          I’m glad I feel confident enough that I can use autism as a private label that I’ll use only use for myself in this community, to connect with others on similar experiences.

          Just like I did with you right now in fact!

    2. The Wellerman

      Not all autistics are the same. Not only is it incorrect to assume what one is capable of on account of their autism, but also very hurtful and rude in a way not a lot of people realize.

      I don’t really feel like giving neurodivergence 101 here, but the way we talk about autism here is a lot more progressive than a lot of places where the concept is overrun with hurtful baggage.

      1. The Wellerman

        Being a neurofluid who’s currently autistic, it’s just so tempting to write out a megaparagraph about it anyway, so what the hell?

        https://www.newgrounds.com/projects/movies/1904872/preview

        (at least this way it doesn’t take up a whole page of space here)

        1. hazel

          I’m trying to keep this personal attack low so that it can stay.

          In your post:
          “In the DOA comments section, ‘autism’ is acknowledged as being allowed to be fluid the same way gender is”
          “when I write “autism” here,
          I am only and ONLY referring to the concept as it is spoken of in the Dumbing of Age comments section, where it is allowed to be intrinsically fluid and have nobody make hurtful assumptions”

          This reads like moderator speech when the other autistic people you started fights with earlier for being positive about the label have yet to receive a real apology (not any that I’ve seen, anyway). Just more “I’m sorry if the truth made you feel bad, so SO sorry.” Now you’re saying that you are autistic but only sometimes and pre-emptively telling no-one to challenge that.

          If you start with a real apology and rebuild sincere connections here, I think you’ll find more understanding and a warmer reception to your thoughts. At least with me!

        2. hazel

          I should’ve really said *”personal-attack-low”, it reads badly as is, I mean that I’m trying NOT to personal attack.

        3. The Wellerman

          According to Willis himself, the folks here really aren’t after public apologies and said not to worry too much about it, and I took his word for it.

          Regardless, Hazel, I’m sorry that i upset you in the past, especially so if you also identity as autistic. ?

          I don’t really intend for that page I wrote up there to be an “official” guide in any way as much as I mean it to be just a starting point for newcomers to the community or at least new to the subject, a list of common pitfalls they should look out for lest they hurt us without meaning to.

          BTW I’m not the only neurofluid you’ll meet out there, just a heads up.

        4. Fizzy

          I’ve looked it up with every possible wording I can think of, and I’ve found exactly nothing relating to neurofluidity. No studies, no personal blogs or posts, nothing.

        5. The Wellerman

          It’s something I myself coined because it’s the most concise way to express the way I am, in a way I feel most comfortable with, regardless of how widely it’s recognized.

        6. Laura

          Apparently there’s at least one other reference to it online:
          https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Neurofluid
          With respect to how neurology and neurodivergence can affect one’s experience of gender. Don’t know how accepted that is, perhaps not very, just that at least one other person coined a similar turn of phrase.

          To bring it back to comics discussion…
          …Maybe, for someone like Joyce, who is just dipping the first toe into new ideas, like “maybe having autism” or “maybe having bisexual feelings” or “learning about atheism and different political beliefs” it could be comforting to have some belief in neuroplasticity and in the ability to change one’s own self-perception over time. My dad (who has his own mental conditions) called it “stem cells” — not literally, but describing his own capacity to develop new interests and ways of looking at things.

          This all gets a little meta, because of course a neurological condition or diagnosis isn’t something that one can change, most of the time. I just meant that sometimes some folks’s relationship to how they feel about their labels and their own self-identification as to how they perceive their brain as working… sometimes that can evolve and grow over time, as folks become more self-aware.

        7. Taffy

          Wait, “currently”? It’s not a cute hoodie you can just put on and take off.

        8. The Wellerman

          Not like that. Not manually, at least.

          My neurodivergence is fluid like my gender, my different ND stripes can be express themselves at varying degrees any time. I might not be autistic tomorrow, I could wake up to be more ADHD or both ADHD and autistic, the same way I could wake up and be more or less feminine on account of being genderfluid. It’s another part of me that kinda just does what it wants. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        9. Icalasari

          You’re still autistic. You just have a good day. You’re still ADHD. You just have a good day

          These are not disorders that just turn off

        10. The Wellerman

          I’m really sorry I upset you. ?

          But I really do wanna find common ground.

          What do you mean by “physically” different?

          And also, I really don’t want to think of it as a disorder, just functioning differently, and having to live differently.

          It might not just turn on and off in your neurodivergent experience, but it does in mine. But on/off is kind of an oversimplification. It’s complicated.

        11. Icalasari

          As in Autistic brains are literally physically different – Some parts are overdeveloped, other parts are underdeveloped. For Autism to turn on and off would require these parts to just random change how developed they are, their physical connections, their physical mass

          Some days are good, yes, but that doesn’t mean the Autism isn’t there. It still is – Even on my best day I will still be deficient in some areas, and excel in others due to said differences in the brain

        12. The Wellerman

          Interesting. The way I’ve known and talked about it with others here, it doesn’t seem to strictly follow that definition of autism.

          I tend to see autism as a collection of traits that are all put into the same category, which have varying causes within the brain, and some of those individual causes can very well turn on and off akin to how an electric circuit can open, close or change it’s internal resistance depending on the surrounding conditions.

          Given how the brain is literally the most complex structure in the known universe and there’s still so much we don’t understand about it, I don’t want to anchor the way I discuss it in current understanding if I can help it, and definitely don’t want a “one-size-fits-all” philosophy.

          But if you feel that what you said describes how your brain works, I will totally and completely respect that, I definitely don’t know your brain better than you do.

        13. Fizzy

          It literally is a disorder. And, call me extreme if I’m being, but reading through your comments, how you talk about autism feels ableist.

        14. The Wellerman

          I said I don’t want to think of it as a disorder, I don’t speak for others on whether it’s a disability for them.

          I said that sometimes aspects of it can turn on and off in some people with it, but that doesn’t mean that it always does. It’s called neuro-diversity for a reason.

          Autism is different for everyone who has it. That’s what I’m trying to say, regardless of how well I can express that idea.

          Does that really make me ableist?

        15. Needfuldoer

          Many of us have heard “just don’t be Autistic/ADHD/whatever” numerous times in the past, from well-meaning people and unsympathetic jackasses alike. It’s condescending and dismissive.

          Can you see how “I might not be autistic tomorrow, I could wake up to be more ADHD or both ADHD and autistic” strikes similar chords?

        16. The Wellerman

          I don’t really mean it like that! I swear! I’m really sorry I hurt you like that!

          I definitely don’t mean to say that anyone can “turn it off” willfully. I surely can’t decide when my different stripes come on and off by themselves that make me more autistic or ADHD, anymore than I can help being genderfluid and being more or less feminine at any time.

        17. stellatedHexahedron

          You are of course right that your symptoms will present more or less strongly at different times. You may even experience such variance to a significantly higher degree than the average autist; I certainly wouldn’t know. But if you insist on describing yourself as a “neurofluid” person who is “sometimes autistic”, people are gonna take offense — myself included, though I’ve mostly talked myself out of it by not being able to figure out exactly why. If you wanted to take the autism outta me, you’d have to completely gut who I am as a person, and it can just slip offa you overnight like a bad mood? Something like that, I think. Not really a complete explanation, though…hmm.

          Hey, did I have a point? Could’ve sworn I had a point when I came in. Oh, well, hopefully it’s one of the things I already said.

        18. Icalasari

          It literally leads to your brain being physically different. You can’t just be “neurofluid” and be Autistic only some of the time

          I’m actually insulted

        19. Taffy

          I’m a part-time autistic. My brain only collects Power Rangers trivia and video game layouts 28 hours a week.

        20. The Wellerman

          sorry, my sarcasm detector is kinda buggy today,

          but either case, i definitely take your word for what you say about how your brain works, i don’t know your brain better than you do

        21. Taffy

          It was sarcastic, because I was a little tickled with the mental image of a person with an old-timey punch card clocking in at their 9:5 job at Autism Inc., possibly tipping their cap to the person clocking out next to them like “Mornin’, Ralph.” “Morning’, Sam.”, is all.

        22. The Wellerman

          Well don’t worry, hopefully it’s clear now what I mean by neurofluid.

          It’s more like… a Rubik’s cube that randomly shuffles itself at any time, in a way I have almost no say over. I can mildly affect probability in few cases, but no outcome is guaranteed.

          Imagine each of the colored squares on that Rubik’s cube is like a different Yugioh or Pokemon card. These cards represent my neurodivergents stripes.

          Now imagine I can only access the cards represented by the squares on a single face of that Rubik’s cube, like only the front or the top. These cards are what I’m forced to play with. Only in special circumstances can I access the cards hidden on the other sides of that cube, similar to activating cards in the Graveyard in Yugioh.

          The set of cards I have access to, what I can and can’t do with them, their powers and drawbacks, this is my neurodivergence at the given moment.

          Hope that better explains it. At least the way it is for me.

        23. Laura

          Interesting.

          If I’m getting the drift correctly, to my understanding, there may be a few other mental / health and neuroemotional conditions that can present in similar ways… e.g. stroke recovery, PTSD, TBI, Dissociative Identity, Borderline Personality, “rapid cycling” Bipolar, PMDD, hormone fluctuations, etc. … I don’t know too much about Therian and Otherkin communities, but I’ve read that sometimes they say they may experience uncontrolled and unpredictable “switching” too. (Apologies for any offense — I’m still learning about that community!) Like Icalasari said, there are “good days and bad days,” sometimes. A person can sometimes wake up and feel like a whole different person from the one they felt like when they went to sleep. Or a certain conversation or trigger can bring out one’s particular skills (such as eidetic long-term recall for old song lyrics, for example) or “muscle memory”, even when a person feels greater degrees of impairment in other context. Dr. Patricia Deegan has a great talk on how she and her peers have experienced being perceived as “high functioning” and “low functioning” in the same day (sorry for the label!), depending on the particular context.

          I don’t mean to say that any one of these conditions is something that a person can just choose not to experience. All I mean is that experience may change depending on context and time.

          I’m just wondering whether that may be a basis for common ground among these disparate ways of looking at conditions. Just a thought… but feel free to tell me to butt out, though! ;-D

        24. The Wellerman

          “I don’t mean to say that any one of these conditions is something that a person can just choose not to experience. All I mean is that experience may change depending on context and time.”

          This right here. This is what I was trying to say all this time. Thank you.

        25. Needfuldoer

          Holy fuck do I wish it actually worked that way. Would’ve made significant parts of my life a hell of a lot easier!

        26. Taffy

          Being only sometimes autismic would have been convenient for a lot of forward-facing stuff, like job interviews, team meetings, and doctor visits.

        27. thejeff

          Not so much if you didn’t get to pick when the sometimes were .

        28. Taffy

          I already don’t get to pick that.

    3. Taffy

      Even for those of us with difficulty reading body language, sometimes we can still pick up on it if it’s from a person we’re close to/spend a lot of time around.

    4. Icalasari

      We can pick up on other cues. Since Sarah concentrates so much on keeping her expression dour, she may just suck in other ways with hiding it. So somebody who can read the other cues but not the face could potentially tell

    5. anon

      well she knows sarah well enough at this point plus should know from the halloween door decoration

  34. Heather

    Joyce: I’m so happy I could sing! And have woodland creatures appear to join the chorus!

  35. Shadowsnail

    Forgot to post yesterday:
    In this dorm we call home
    Everyone hail to the pumpkin song
    In this dorm, don’t we love it now?
    Everybody’s waiting for the Chex surprise

  36. Caravelle

    Oooooh ! Is Joyce dressed as Rapunzel from the Disney movie ??? Very apt but now I want to hear her take on the movie (and whether it evolved over time, depending on when she first watched the movie).

    1. Blue

      Something tells me your take would be interesting as well

      1. Caravelle

        Probably not. I really liked the movie, I watched it when I was at an age and time of life where I knew I enjoyed Disney movies but thought I was probably too old to really love them anymore and I was taken off-guard by how hilarious I found the horse. Now that I think of it, I was also really wary of the 3D because I didn’t like 3D animation, been put off by it since Toy Story, and I think this was the one where I thought “huh maybe it can be done after all” (and then when Frozen came out I thought “I see they finally nailed it!”).

        However I am ALSO a longtime follower of fundamentalist Christian shenanigans and I was reading a lot of ex-Quiverfull blogs at the time and saw how hard this movie resonated with them. I loved the movie and Rapunzel’s experience and the Rapunzel-Gothel dynamic are my jam, but mostly because it’s themes I like in fiction, like you might love war stories even if you’ve never been in a war. Those ex-fundamentalist young women however were watching the “When Will My Life Begin” song and going THAT’S ME THAT WAS MY LIFE THAT’S EXACTLY HOW THAT WAS

        Joyce wasn’t Quiverfull and her family dynamics don’t seem to have included this notion of “girl takes care of the house and is raised for marriage” (being the youngest probably helped, but clearly her upbringing was adjacent to that, IIRC her going to college where she did when Becky went to Anderson was in itself a bit of a liberal things for her parents to do), but I still bet she’d feel a certain kind of way watching the “Mother knows best” sequence.

        I’m wondering whether this is a movie she’d have seen as a child or not. Do we remember whether she was allowed to watch Disney movies? And if Tangled would have been one of the banned ones either way because of its rebel-against-your-parents themes? (I don’t recall if fundamentalists debate that one because Gothel isn’t her real mother so you could “rescue” it that way).

        1. Laura

          Well, that IS interesting!

        2. Caravelle

          Thank you for saying so ^^ I meant that my relationship with the movie is “generic Disney movie enjoyer” and not the kind I was imagining Joyce might have. (and, according to the latest strip, she DID watch it as a kid and liked it “for some reason” but hadn’t revisited it until that strip where Dorothy points out the Relevant Themes).

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