You’re assuming said Indiana senators are in something resembling their right minds, and not suffering from the prolonged aftermath of hormonal imbalances themselves.
I’m actually not sure that’s even close to an accurate assessment. Reasoning is impacted by your biochemistry, and think about the level of irrational insecurity behind a lot of those attitudes-it could be that the real problem is a deficiency in testosterone precursors among the political population influencing their decision making abilities (or that of their chief supporters.)
Mind you, it could also be an aftermath of having a government run by people who make their entire adult career about pursuing power over others, and the local expression of it just happens to be degrading god by mixing him with politics.
I’m hoping that the Dumbiverse supreme court is less dumb than thisiverse’s one. I don’t think I could take several months of the main cast just screaming in anger all the time.
Whether she actually helps or not remains to be seen, the last few times she tried to help ( setting walky and lucky up, getting her boss a date) it didn’t end well for her because she was more concerned about being a problem solver then stopping to think if it was a good idea.
Yep Lucy sorry spell check. It turned out okey but only because of Dorothy, Jennifer’s advice to did not work for Lucy and she seemed kind of bitter towards Dorothy afterwards.
No. Joyce made her realize that ages ago, though I can’t find the specific strip. Or, rather, Joyce’s expression made her realize it, and then Joyce confirmed it by explaining that Dorothy was describing Walky in terms of food within a week.
Aren’t they? I mean, unless her opinion has changed due to the atheism, something she’d been hiding, what could they realistically do to make her get and take medicine she would be dead-set against taking?
I mean, should they have tried more? Yeah, I think so, but she’s not their stepkid or anything. Joyce doesn’t get blamed when she isn’t proactive about fixing things for them. I’m glad Jennifer’s stepping up to the plate here, but if Joyce is going to be obstinate, she also needs to take care of herself more than not at all.
It’s not about them not taking initiative it’s that their justfication is based on assuming the worst of Joyce which is mildly effed up. Like if they just said “Didn’t think of it, my bad.” That’s a weak excuse but it’s fair. Instead they said “Joyce will explode if we mention birth control exists!”
BBCC
I mean, until a little while ago, it was almost certainly TRUE. How much do you wanna bet her sect held birth control as a strict no no?
Regina phalange
How is it effed up to assume the worst of Joyce when they literally jump saw the worst of Joyce, like, a week ago? She was an absolute pain about the glasses—and I’m kinda eyerolling at this comments section blaming Dorothy and Becky for hand-waving this when so many people thought Dorothy was way overstepping on the glasses issue—and if I were them, I wouldn’t be standing in line do redo that one except with vaginas (a word that iirc Joyce refuses to say) instead of eyeballs. Dorothy all but says her unwillingness to step up now is because she barely got the glasses to fly and that was a heavy lift on its own.
Actually, my new head canon is that Dorothy did run into Joyce once when she dealt with her first college period in September, Dorothy suggested she go see a doctor, and Joyce said she wouldn’t because periods are women’s punishment for the apple and we have to live with the pain of something.
Seralyna
Not to mention that they are college students with their own work and personal lives aside from Joyce. Like, it’s great to want to help a friend (and they clearly did before) but it’s also not their job to solve every one of her problems for her, Especially when they have already seen that doing so is gonna be a pretty large commitment of both time and energy.
Steelbright
This here, yes.
JBento
Weird how they didn’t have a personal life outside of Joyce when they decided to stalk her all the way to Joe’s room.
Spencer
Seriously.
Like you can be fussy, overbearing and outright emotionally manipulative, but at least be consistent about this instead of leaving it to “when it’s not that hard.”
Sirksome
You all get that it’s not about assigning them responsibility for Joyce’s health right? Neither Becky or Dorothy said anything close to “Joyce is a big girl. She can figure this out on her own. I don’t have the time or energy to care.” They’re actually implying Joyce is too immature or rigid or sensitive or whatever to have a conversation about birth control. Becky even making comparisons to feeding dogs medication which is just real nice.
I guess cause Joyce didn’t like getting glasses that one time (which she is having no obvious problem with now by the way) and is a picky eater she’s incapable of taking pills! Which is a completely different experience from coming to terms with low vision.
In a way Jennifer just showed she respects Joyce as an adult in a way Dorothy and Becky don’t.
Andy
Becky’s making a joke, which Dorothy responded to with another joke, that hyperbolized how difficult it would be to get Joyce to take birth control. It’s like when a kid is running around being loud and annoying and you mutter “Jesus someone put a leash on them.” It’s not a literal desire that someone should treat the child like a dog (for most people, at least) so much as a humorous way to remove some frustration at the situation and joke about the behavior.
Likewise, they’re joking here because until VERY recently they knew that Joyce was heavily entrenched in Christian fundamentalist ways of thinking. Believing sex to be a sin to the point that she didn’t like showing off any leg, even below the knee, or shoulder. Wearing shorts under a dress. Believing it was her duty to date a gay Jewish guy in order to make him stop being either of those things. Joyce’s relationship to fundamentalism has, for the most part, been unwavering adherence.
And then we add on the way that she reacts to things and people that try to pull her out of her comfort zones and preconceived notions, which has generally been way over the top. She honestly thought it was a good idea to hire Mike to punch her date in the face if he did anything that hinted of sexuality. Even when she’s not involving other people or physical pain, “Kablooey” is a fair assessment of her reactions in those circumstances.
So putting it all together, we have a person who has historically strongly adhered to Christian fundamentalism and its views on sex (which usually carry over to birth control being a sin) and who doesn’t take suggestions that she should change part of her worldview or habits very well, and it’s very easy to see why her friends would decide it’s safest, best, and easiest to just let this one slide.
And for the record, I agree with them that up until Joyce became an atheist, she likely was too immature, rigid, sensitive, and whatever else to have a conversation about birth control. Because, as I said before, she’s repeatedly shown that she’s immature, rigid, sensitive, and whatever else when something challenges her views and habits.
Sirksome
Joke? I really don’t buy that argument. Maybe it was a joke but it was at Joyce’s expense since I doubt either would say that while Joyce was in earshot which actually makes it mocking. And hey! Didn’t Becky just get offended and argue with Joyce for mocking her religion with a new friend behind her back? Even Dorothy said she was disappointed in Joyce for that! Except if I wanted to be a pedantic, dick I could argue this is worse since at least Joyce didn’t directly mock Becky!
So saying it’s a joke kind of make Becks and Dotty jerks. I’d prefer to believe they just didn’t care over that.
You never actually know how someone will react. Becky’s head didn’t explode at the knowledge of birth control at the least she could expect the same from her best friend. What are they scared of? The subject of birth control hasn’t been brought up before as far as I know. Is Joyce gonna turn into the Hulk? This barely even has anything to do with Joyce’s past faith or upbringing. They just didn’t trust their friend.
Andy
1: Yes, I’m actually fairly sure they WOULD say that in Joyce’s hearing, as the very first thing Becky did when waiting on Joyce was not ask her for her order and wrote down the exact thing she wanted. Teasing friends about their flaws generally isn’t a big deal.
2: Joyce DID directly mock Becky. Saying that everyone who believes X when your best friend believes X is mocking them. There’s no real wiggle room there. Moreover, it’s still pretty insulting because it’s not poking fun at the things Becky does. It was directly insulting her intelligence and was meant to be an insult on the intelligence of people who believe the things she does. The fact that Joyce didn’t really mean it to include Becky doesn’t change the fact that she made a sweeping and insulting generalization about a group that includes Becky. If I say “Man I hate children with their snotty noses and constantly asking questions” I can’t be surprised when my kids feel hurt by it.
3. Becky has been well-established to adhere much less strictly to the fundamentalism they were both raised in. She accepts evolution and homosexuality, two points that Joyce has been seen on-screen to have massive issues around until her deconversion. Why wouldn’t she have issues with birth control as a means to aid with bad periods? There’s never been anything to even suggest that except for Joyce apparently always assuming that Becky believed the exact same things JOyce herself does.
4. What are they scared of? Gee, I don’t know, maybe an exponentially more difficult fight than they had when Dorothy took Joyce to get glasses, just like they say in the strip? If they already know Joyce was extremely upset over such a minor medical issue that doesn’t intersect with her religious beliefs in any way, why wouldn’t they assume that she’d be much more upset over one that does? That’s not a lack of trust. It’s taking established information and extrapolating from it to understand the most likely scenario. Something that Becky and Dorothy have, generally, shown they’re not particularly bad at.
Look, if you’re just looking for reasons to hate on Becky and Dorothy, go off I guess. But I don’t see any flaw in how they expect Joyce to respond because it’s 100% in line with the ways we’ve seen her respond to things up to this point.
Sirksome
@Andy. I’m not looking for reasons to hate Becky and Dorothy. I stand by my original comment that this is just a disappointing moment for them. They can both do better and should trust Joyce to be capable of responding like an adult.
1. This isn’t really friendly teasing. That implies an active role between all parties. Joyce is assumedly out of earshot. If they wanted to tease Joyce they could have when Joyce was right next to them. Even in your example they were actively playing off their shared knowledge.
2. I don’t actually want to rehash the whole toxic argument of who was in the wrong for the Joyce and Becky religion debate. Shouldn’t have brought it up in my comparison. For the record I think they were both assholes but Joyce was the slightly bigger one. Fair enough. My mistake.
3. I disagree here. Not with Becky being more flexible with her faith and more receptive of science and knowledge ect. That’s all true. It’s just not a justification. They’re just freely making assumptions here. They didn’t bother to bring it up because they were assuming the worst of Joyce. It’s a topic that’s never been brought up, there’s no baggage here. Humans are incredibly nuanced beings. You can hate chocolate but love chocolate icecream.
4. I can respect them making a call based on Joyce’s past behavior, but it really reads as them avoiding a interaction out of selfishness. They made a risk assessment and decided this cold negatively impact me so nevermind except I think I’d respect that more than them assuming Joyce is incapable. Not to mention getting glasses is completely different from getting birth control. The two subjects have no real relation to each other beyond being under the umbrella of general health.
Joyce was willing to tolerate visual impairment over the perception of losing her identity and becoming a bespectacled dork like the rest of us glasses wearers. That doesn’t mean she would fight against not being in crippling pain every month if the option presented itself. This is two different things.
This doesn’t condemn Becks and Dotty in anyway. People can be jerks sometimes. They’re dtill cool. I just wanted to point out a character flaw here not battle for their souls.
It was good writing on Willis’ part to have this be shortly after they did all that heavy lifting to get Joyce to get glasses. I feel like it’d be less in character for them, Dorothy especially, to sit this out if they hadn’t already gone through a recent healthcare provision adventure.
thejeff
In which the commentariat alternately hated on Dorothy for trying to make Joyce do something she really didn’t want to and on Becky for not helping.
I mean, they don’t *know* if her opinion has changed due to atheism. It’s possible she has some sort of drug-related anxiety and would rather suffer through her periods than take a new medication. It’s also possible she had a religious objection to birth control that’s no longer relevant and simply hasn’t thought about it. Or maybe she has an ethical objection that’s a holdover from her religious objections and is open to persuasion.
What I’m saying is that they could just ask her. Or at least not object to *Jenny* asking her.
I was thinking about this too. I think that they’re doing that thing Joyce complained to Sal about everyone doing to her (back when she borrowed Sal’s leather jacket after apologizing to Sal for doing the same thing to her) – taking who she definitely used to be and making assumptions about her without believing she’s capable of changing.
Nah, Birth Control+Joyce does not seem like a winning combination. Like, yes, new Joyce is atheist, but she still has the Christian hangups and also I doubt either of the other two have reevaluated things since learning that. It’s probably possible to get Joyce on BC now, but after how she reacted to glasses, do you blame them for considering it unlikely?
Hmmm. I was a super religious Adventist in middle school and got on birth control because I had periods that lasted like 2 weeks and didn’t think much of it. My mom freaked out, lied and told me what they were giving me “wasn’t the real thing” but I was an autistic little weirdo who still liked to play with toys and was obsessed with the Ninja Turtles so I had no idea what she was talking about and never even made the connection that birth control was for sex -_-;
Dunno why I’m telling this story except that I don’t think being super religious necessarily means you’ll freak out over the use of BC for medical reasons
Kimi
The amount of women that are on birth control for health reasons rather than prevention is probably more than people think.
Miri
I was put on BC for painful, long, frequent periods (24-26 day cycles, 10-12 days of bleeding, 3 weeks of cramping; at its worst this was sometimes literally so bad I couldn’t straighten up or move) at 15. I was not sexually active at 15. My mum telling me “reassuringly” that after I had kids it should settle down was not enough motivation to get over my squicks over the idea of sex, and I was aware “don’t want to deal with menstruation” was a really bad reason to have a teenage pregnancy. Taking birth control seemed a much less extreme option. (It made me put on a stone a year til I was taken off the pill coz my weight meant there was a risk of blood clots, and switched to the implant which also triggered me to start getting migraines. This year, I had one which lasted 10-11 weeks straight so that’s really not fun… But having 3 kids, I still think it was a less extreme option. They’re amazing, but I was 30 when I had the first one…)
More importantly, taking a birth control medication is so closely tied to having sex that some women freak out at the thought of taking it even when it’s not for sex.
“She would be opposed to it on a fundamental level (at least, until very recently she would have been) and freak the hell out at even the suggestion” isn’t a good justification?
Their assessments aren’t necessarily inaccurate, but they’re still not reasons to not try. And yeah, it’s become more than a little apparent that those two kinda put Joyce in a little box.
Like, even if there’s very little chance Joyce will take the option (fundie hangups and all– plus I wouldn’t be surprised if she has trouble swallowing pills), she at least deserves to know that she has the option.
Actually, I’m guessing that Joyce is, in this moment, the more receptive to the possibility of end-the-suffering pills (which might also be birth-control pills, but who cares) than she’s ever been.
It wouldn’t even be all that out of character for Joyce to happily start taking birth control pills to help with her periods (assuming that’s even the issue and she doesn’t have intermittent appendicitis or something weird). Joyce’s has almost never rejected doing something because of her religion directly, it was always things that *made her uncomfortable* that she rejected, which ultimately included the religion itself. I could very easily see Joyce quickly rationalizing an excuse for why birth control is okay if it stops her from being in horrible pain semi-regularly.
I’m pretty sure Joyce is also aware doctors exist??? Like, at some point this has probably already been discussed with her PCP in her life and whatever the discussion was, she was probably present for it. If she wants to try to bring it up with a new doctor, she is an adult who is capable of scheduling her own appointments.
YES! Joyce is just as much an adult as Dotty and Becky. All of them have probably spent their life with people telling them periods just suck sometimes, without actually qualifying that sometimes, they suck TOO MUCH because something is WRONG.
Of all of them, Joyce is the one best equipped to talk to her doctor to see if this is a normal amount of pain. And hopefully has, honestly.
People who menstruate often grow up believing that periods are *supposed* to be absolute hell. This leads to them not seeking help, because it doesn’t occur to them that it might even be an option.
thejeff
It’s certainly possible, maybe even likely, but the idea that she might have mentioned this to a doctor at some point in the past doesn’t even seem to have come up.
The thing is, they’re almost certainly correct. A lot of doctors WILL just put her on a pill or some other form of birth control. MAYBE they give you a painkiller. Most people go a long time waiting for any other diagnosis and even longer for anything to be done with it. Joyce has had this problem before and it isn’t every period, so odds of it being anything life threatening are probably low. Regardless, doctors are very reluctant to do any sort of surgery on baby making parts if you don’t have kids and are younger than 30-35.
Agemegos
My grandfather was blind for fifteen years because he assumed that doctors couldn’t do anything about glaucoma. Then it turned out that he had a cataract. A simple operation and a monocle restored vision that he could have had all along.
BBCC
That is awful and I’m sorry to hear that, but it doesn’t change that women* complaining to doctors about period pain often are not taken seriously. If you have a doctor who WILL take it seriously, it’s luck of the freaking draw. And your grandfather had a diagnosis to work with – again, it’s often a challenge to GET a diagnosis.
It’s still worth while to see a doctor, but assuming the answer (or part of it) will most likely be birth control (which is used to treat all the most likely suspects for period pain) and that Joyce would not like that is pretty accurate.
* = Trans men, non binary folks, intersex folks, etc. too but A) People suck and so doctors often label them women and go right on ignoring them too and B) They also each have issues of their own relating to this so I’m gonna stick to my experience (and the likelihood on Joyce) and the data on women.
Agemegos
I know that some doctors are callous pricks, and I’ve had my share of trouble getting treatment e.g. for stonefish sting and for gout. (“Stonefish hurt more than that.”, apparently). Nevertheless it would be pretty poor of Joyce to avoid consulting a doctor for her pain and then blame the doctor, if that is indeed what she’s doing.
thejeff
Pretty sure Joyce isn’t doing that. She’s either never talked to a doctor about it in any detail or she already has and has been assured it’s just normal .
Agemegos
I’m complaining about Dorothy and Becky, not Joyce. They are assuming, on the basis of being teenagers who heard a rumour once, that if Joyce went to a doctor the doctor would make the diagnosis that they have heard of and prescribe the treatment they have heard of. On that basis, they have decided that it is not worth trying to badger Joyce into seeking treatment.
BBCC
Where are you getting ‘heard a rumour once’ as opposed to ‘this is the most common way this plays out’. Because I promise you, it IS.
This is like being angry they heard she was sneezing a lot one day, without a cough, congestion, any consistent environmental factors like dust or pollen and no fever, and said ‘You probably have the sniffles, you should go try some acetaminophen and get some rest’.
Agemegos
Grandad didn’t “have a diagnosis to work with”. He was an architect and an artist who lost his occupation for fifteen years because he assumed he knew why he was going blind and didn’t bother to consult a doctor about it. Then he mentioned his “glaucoma” to a doctor on a social occasion and the doctor said “Glaucoma? You have a cataract.” That’s the kind of danger that Joyce would face if she relied on ignorant and meddlesome teenagers for her diagnosis and treatment.
Or to put it another way, none of these dumb kids ought to be basing their decision on a reckless assumption that they know the medical cause of her pain and suffering and how it ought to be treated.
BBCC
My mistake. I assumed glaucoma was a misdiagnosis coming from another doctor.
I understand what you’re saying, but it’s still true that based on what we know of her issues, all the most likely causes ARE treated with birth control. There’s a very outside chance it could be cancer, but that’s less likely with all the symptoms only showing up during some cycles. They’re not being teenagers making reckless assumptions here. What they are describing IS, in fact, the reality of all the most likely diagnoses. That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t see a doctor, but it’s really weird to blame them for ‘assuming they know better’ when they’re almost certainly CORRECT.
PirateTawnee
A friend of mine has been a chronic pain sufferer her entire adult life, and from what she has said, doctors are very reluctant to listen to women patients period.
Doctors won’t even touch an ovarian cyst unless it’s basically the size of an orange. The first solution will almost always be hormonal birth control to help shrink and prevent them without invasive surgery.
ischemgeek
I had d a cyst that was the size of a plum causing internal bleeding and they did sweet fuck all for it. 4 weeks in agony unable to stand up straight with nothing for pain till it resolved on its own.
My daughter who lives in Scotland and works for the NHS presented with abdominal pain and cramps, they did an ultrasound in the ER to rule out her appendix and removed several ovarian cysts, I think the next day because it wasn’t life-threatening. But it might have been that night because she was incapacitated by the pain.
Agemegos
Maybe Joyce doesn’t have an ovarian cyst. Somebody ought to do an ultrasound.
For some reason, I find it hilarious that Joyce has to be given pills like a puppy. Probably because she vaguely looks like (and has the friendly personality of) a golden retriever.
298 thoughts on “Kablooey”
The Wellerman
Another opportunity to break more Chains of the Sunday School with the Power of Science?!?!
HELL YEAH!!! GET EXCITED!!!
✌️? ??⚕️??
*plays “Paved With Good Intentions” by Michiru Yamane on hacked muzak*
Durandal_1707
I totally called it yesterday… 😀
Ana Chronistic
“Look, it’s EASY, you just need–”
“Joyce goes kablooey.”
“That’s why you need–”
“That ALSO makes Joyce kablooey.”
“Which is why I will–”
“KABLOOEY.”
(also, Indiana senators are not having any of this bodily autonomy, would be nice if they KABLOOEYED and got to feel what it’s like)
The Wellerman
That last part…
You’d make a good ADHDemon ?
Daniel M Ball
You’re assuming said Indiana senators are in something resembling their right minds, and not suffering from the prolonged aftermath of hormonal imbalances themselves.
I’m actually not sure that’s even close to an accurate assessment. Reasoning is impacted by your biochemistry, and think about the level of irrational insecurity behind a lot of those attitudes-it could be that the real problem is a deficiency in testosterone precursors among the political population influencing their decision making abilities (or that of their chief supporters.)
Mind you, it could also be an aftermath of having a government run by people who make their entire adult career about pursuing power over others, and the local expression of it just happens to be degrading god by mixing him with politics.
showler
I’m hoping that the Dumbiverse supreme court is less dumb than thisiverse’s one. I don’t think I could take several months of the main cast just screaming in anger all the time.
Schpoonman
You know everyone else in the story has royally fucked up when Jennifer is the one cleaning up the mess.
Archieve
Whether she actually helps or not remains to be seen, the last few times she tried to help ( setting walky and lucky up, getting her boss a date) it didn’t end well for her because she was more concerned about being a problem solver then stopping to think if it was a good idea.
Bryy
Yeah, Jennifer wants to be the authority figure here and validate her choices in friends.
Laura
Lucky?
Do you mean Lucy? I thought that turned out OK.
Archieve
Yep Lucy sorry spell check. It turned out okey but only because of Dorothy, Jennifer’s advice to did not work for Lucy and she seemed kind of bitter towards Dorothy afterwards.
ValdVin
Does Jennifer still think she set up Walky and Dorothy?
Rabid Rabbit
No. Joyce made her realize that ages ago, though I can’t find the specific strip. Or, rather, Joyce’s expression made her realize it, and then Joyce confirmed it by explaining that Dorothy was describing Walky in terms of food within a week.
ValdVin
Ah, thanks. Now that you mention it it does ring a bell.
Sirksome
I’m actually more than a little disappointed in both of Joyce’s “best” friends here. Like their justifications aren’t even that good.
DailyBrad
Aren’t they? I mean, unless her opinion has changed due to the atheism, something she’d been hiding, what could they realistically do to make her get and take medicine she would be dead-set against taking?
I mean, should they have tried more? Yeah, I think so, but she’s not their stepkid or anything. Joyce doesn’t get blamed when she isn’t proactive about fixing things for them. I’m glad Jennifer’s stepping up to the plate here, but if Joyce is going to be obstinate, she also needs to take care of herself more than not at all.
Sirksome
It’s not about them not taking initiative it’s that their justfication is based on assuming the worst of Joyce which is mildly effed up. Like if they just said “Didn’t think of it, my bad.” That’s a weak excuse but it’s fair. Instead they said “Joyce will explode if we mention birth control exists!”
BBCC
I mean, until a little while ago, it was almost certainly TRUE. How much do you wanna bet her sect held birth control as a strict no no?
Regina phalange
How is it effed up to assume the worst of Joyce when they literally jump saw the worst of Joyce, like, a week ago? She was an absolute pain about the glasses—and I’m kinda eyerolling at this comments section blaming Dorothy and Becky for hand-waving this when so many people thought Dorothy was way overstepping on the glasses issue—and if I were them, I wouldn’t be standing in line do redo that one except with vaginas (a word that iirc Joyce refuses to say) instead of eyeballs. Dorothy all but says her unwillingness to step up now is because she barely got the glasses to fly and that was a heavy lift on its own.
Actually, my new head canon is that Dorothy did run into Joyce once when she dealt with her first college period in September, Dorothy suggested she go see a doctor, and Joyce said she wouldn’t because periods are women’s punishment for the apple and we have to live with the pain of something.
Seralyna
Not to mention that they are college students with their own work and personal lives aside from Joyce. Like, it’s great to want to help a friend (and they clearly did before) but it’s also not their job to solve every one of her problems for her, Especially when they have already seen that doing so is gonna be a pretty large commitment of both time and energy.
Steelbright
This here, yes.
JBento
Weird how they didn’t have a personal life outside of Joyce when they decided to stalk her all the way to Joe’s room.
Spencer
Seriously.
Like you can be fussy, overbearing and outright emotionally manipulative, but at least be consistent about this instead of leaving it to “when it’s not that hard.”
Sirksome
You all get that it’s not about assigning them responsibility for Joyce’s health right? Neither Becky or Dorothy said anything close to “Joyce is a big girl. She can figure this out on her own. I don’t have the time or energy to care.” They’re actually implying Joyce is too immature or rigid or sensitive or whatever to have a conversation about birth control. Becky even making comparisons to feeding dogs medication which is just real nice.
I guess cause Joyce didn’t like getting glasses that one time (which she is having no obvious problem with now by the way) and is a picky eater she’s incapable of taking pills! Which is a completely different experience from coming to terms with low vision.
In a way Jennifer just showed she respects Joyce as an adult in a way Dorothy and Becky don’t.
Andy
Becky’s making a joke, which Dorothy responded to with another joke, that hyperbolized how difficult it would be to get Joyce to take birth control. It’s like when a kid is running around being loud and annoying and you mutter “Jesus someone put a leash on them.” It’s not a literal desire that someone should treat the child like a dog (for most people, at least) so much as a humorous way to remove some frustration at the situation and joke about the behavior.
Likewise, they’re joking here because until VERY recently they knew that Joyce was heavily entrenched in Christian fundamentalist ways of thinking. Believing sex to be a sin to the point that she didn’t like showing off any leg, even below the knee, or shoulder. Wearing shorts under a dress. Believing it was her duty to date a gay Jewish guy in order to make him stop being either of those things. Joyce’s relationship to fundamentalism has, for the most part, been unwavering adherence.
And then we add on the way that she reacts to things and people that try to pull her out of her comfort zones and preconceived notions, which has generally been way over the top. She honestly thought it was a good idea to hire Mike to punch her date in the face if he did anything that hinted of sexuality. Even when she’s not involving other people or physical pain, “Kablooey” is a fair assessment of her reactions in those circumstances.
So putting it all together, we have a person who has historically strongly adhered to Christian fundamentalism and its views on sex (which usually carry over to birth control being a sin) and who doesn’t take suggestions that she should change part of her worldview or habits very well, and it’s very easy to see why her friends would decide it’s safest, best, and easiest to just let this one slide.
And for the record, I agree with them that up until Joyce became an atheist, she likely was too immature, rigid, sensitive, and whatever else to have a conversation about birth control. Because, as I said before, she’s repeatedly shown that she’s immature, rigid, sensitive, and whatever else when something challenges her views and habits.
Sirksome
Joke? I really don’t buy that argument. Maybe it was a joke but it was at Joyce’s expense since I doubt either would say that while Joyce was in earshot which actually makes it mocking. And hey! Didn’t Becky just get offended and argue with Joyce for mocking her religion with a new friend behind her back? Even Dorothy said she was disappointed in Joyce for that! Except if I wanted to be a pedantic, dick I could argue this is worse since at least Joyce didn’t directly mock Becky!
So saying it’s a joke kind of make Becks and Dotty jerks. I’d prefer to believe they just didn’t care over that.
You never actually know how someone will react. Becky’s head didn’t explode at the knowledge of birth control at the least she could expect the same from her best friend. What are they scared of? The subject of birth control hasn’t been brought up before as far as I know. Is Joyce gonna turn into the Hulk? This barely even has anything to do with Joyce’s past faith or upbringing. They just didn’t trust their friend.
Andy
1: Yes, I’m actually fairly sure they WOULD say that in Joyce’s hearing, as the very first thing Becky did when waiting on Joyce was not ask her for her order and wrote down the exact thing she wanted. Teasing friends about their flaws generally isn’t a big deal.
2: Joyce DID directly mock Becky. Saying that everyone who believes X when your best friend believes X is mocking them. There’s no real wiggle room there. Moreover, it’s still pretty insulting because it’s not poking fun at the things Becky does. It was directly insulting her intelligence and was meant to be an insult on the intelligence of people who believe the things she does. The fact that Joyce didn’t really mean it to include Becky doesn’t change the fact that she made a sweeping and insulting generalization about a group that includes Becky. If I say “Man I hate children with their snotty noses and constantly asking questions” I can’t be surprised when my kids feel hurt by it.
3. Becky has been well-established to adhere much less strictly to the fundamentalism they were both raised in. She accepts evolution and homosexuality, two points that Joyce has been seen on-screen to have massive issues around until her deconversion. Why wouldn’t she have issues with birth control as a means to aid with bad periods? There’s never been anything to even suggest that except for Joyce apparently always assuming that Becky believed the exact same things JOyce herself does.
4. What are they scared of? Gee, I don’t know, maybe an exponentially more difficult fight than they had when Dorothy took Joyce to get glasses, just like they say in the strip? If they already know Joyce was extremely upset over such a minor medical issue that doesn’t intersect with her religious beliefs in any way, why wouldn’t they assume that she’d be much more upset over one that does? That’s not a lack of trust. It’s taking established information and extrapolating from it to understand the most likely scenario. Something that Becky and Dorothy have, generally, shown they’re not particularly bad at.
Look, if you’re just looking for reasons to hate on Becky and Dorothy, go off I guess. But I don’t see any flaw in how they expect Joyce to respond because it’s 100% in line with the ways we’ve seen her respond to things up to this point.
Sirksome
@Andy. I’m not looking for reasons to hate Becky and Dorothy. I stand by my original comment that this is just a disappointing moment for them. They can both do better and should trust Joyce to be capable of responding like an adult.
1. This isn’t really friendly teasing. That implies an active role between all parties. Joyce is assumedly out of earshot. If they wanted to tease Joyce they could have when Joyce was right next to them. Even in your example they were actively playing off their shared knowledge.
2. I don’t actually want to rehash the whole toxic argument of who was in the wrong for the Joyce and Becky religion debate. Shouldn’t have brought it up in my comparison. For the record I think they were both assholes but Joyce was the slightly bigger one. Fair enough. My mistake.
3. I disagree here. Not with Becky being more flexible with her faith and more receptive of science and knowledge ect. That’s all true. It’s just not a justification. They’re just freely making assumptions here. They didn’t bother to bring it up because they were assuming the worst of Joyce. It’s a topic that’s never been brought up, there’s no baggage here. Humans are incredibly nuanced beings. You can hate chocolate but love chocolate icecream.
4. I can respect them making a call based on Joyce’s past behavior, but it really reads as them avoiding a interaction out of selfishness. They made a risk assessment and decided this cold negatively impact me so nevermind except I think I’d respect that more than them assuming Joyce is incapable. Not to mention getting glasses is completely different from getting birth control. The two subjects have no real relation to each other beyond being under the umbrella of general health.
Joyce was willing to tolerate visual impairment over the perception of losing her identity and becoming a bespectacled dork like the rest of us glasses wearers. That doesn’t mean she would fight against not being in crippling pain every month if the option presented itself. This is two different things.
This doesn’t condemn Becks and Dotty in anyway. People can be jerks sometimes. They’re dtill cool. I just wanted to point out a character flaw here not battle for their souls.
Dana
It was good writing on Willis’ part to have this be shortly after they did all that heavy lifting to get Joyce to get glasses. I feel like it’d be less in character for them, Dorothy especially, to sit this out if they hadn’t already gone through a recent healthcare provision adventure.
thejeff
In which the commentariat alternately hated on Dorothy for trying to make Joyce do something she really didn’t want to and on Becky for not helping.
Warren
I mean, they don’t *know* if her opinion has changed due to atheism. It’s possible she has some sort of drug-related anxiety and would rather suffer through her periods than take a new medication. It’s also possible she had a religious objection to birth control that’s no longer relevant and simply hasn’t thought about it. Or maybe she has an ethical objection that’s a holdover from her religious objections and is open to persuasion.
What I’m saying is that they could just ask her. Or at least not object to *Jenny* asking her.
Exarch
I was thinking about this too. I think that they’re doing that thing Joyce complained to Sal about everyone doing to her (back when she borrowed Sal’s leather jacket after apologizing to Sal for doing the same thing to her) – taking who she definitely used to be and making assumptions about her without believing she’s capable of changing.
Viktoria
Nah, Birth Control+Joyce does not seem like a winning combination. Like, yes, new Joyce is atheist, but she still has the Christian hangups and also I doubt either of the other two have reevaluated things since learning that. It’s probably possible to get Joyce on BC now, but after how she reacted to glasses, do you blame them for considering it unlikely?
Switchchris24
You might be surprised how much Pain motivates Change.
Fay
This. I’m betting tomorrow’s strip is going to be surprisingly anti-climactic.
The Wellerman
“All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is deconsecrated…”
Tunasammich
Hmmm. I was a super religious Adventist in middle school and got on birth control because I had periods that lasted like 2 weeks and didn’t think much of it. My mom freaked out, lied and told me what they were giving me “wasn’t the real thing” but I was an autistic little weirdo who still liked to play with toys and was obsessed with the Ninja Turtles so I had no idea what she was talking about and never even made the connection that birth control was for sex -_-;
Dunno why I’m telling this story except that I don’t think being super religious necessarily means you’ll freak out over the use of BC for medical reasons
Kimi
The amount of women that are on birth control for health reasons rather than prevention is probably more than people think.
Miri
I was put on BC for painful, long, frequent periods (24-26 day cycles, 10-12 days of bleeding, 3 weeks of cramping; at its worst this was sometimes literally so bad I couldn’t straighten up or move) at 15. I was not sexually active at 15. My mum telling me “reassuringly” that after I had kids it should settle down was not enough motivation to get over my squicks over the idea of sex, and I was aware “don’t want to deal with menstruation” was a really bad reason to have a teenage pregnancy. Taking birth control seemed a much less extreme option. (It made me put on a stone a year til I was taken off the pill coz my weight meant there was a risk of blood clots, and switched to the implant which also triggered me to start getting migraines. This year, I had one which lasted 10-11 weeks straight so that’s really not fun… But having 3 kids, I still think it was a less extreme option. They’re amazing, but I was 30 when I had the first one…)
Ophidiophile
More importantly, taking a birth control medication is so closely tied to having sex that some women freak out at the thought of taking it even when it’s not for sex.
Svata
“She would be opposed to it on a fundamental level (at least, until very recently she would have been) and freak the hell out at even the suggestion” isn’t a good justification?
Corlanthis
I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad justification, it’s that they didn’t *try* first.
Run it by Joyce, let her blow up (if that’s how she decides to react) and then respect her choice about her own body.
RassilonTDavros
Their assessments aren’t necessarily inaccurate, but they’re still not reasons to not try. And yeah, it’s become more than a little apparent that those two kinda put Joyce in a little box.
RassilonTDavros
Like, even if there’s very little chance Joyce will take the option (fundie hangups and all– plus I wouldn’t be surprised if she has trouble swallowing pills), she at least deserves to know that she has the option.
PirateTawnee
That dings a bell about a conversation Joyce had with Joe about being in a box, and moving outside of said box, and how people react to it.
My search-fu is weak, and I don’t even recall if it’s relevant to this situation, but it’s in my head anyway.
Rabid Rabbit
She had the conversation with Sal, too. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-9-comic/02-but-the-sun-still-shines/stings/
Reltzik
Actually, I’m guessing that Joyce is, in this moment, the more receptive to the possibility of end-the-suffering pills (which might also be birth-control pills, but who cares) than she’s ever been.
ESM
It wouldn’t even be all that out of character for Joyce to happily start taking birth control pills to help with her periods (assuming that’s even the issue and she doesn’t have intermittent appendicitis or something weird). Joyce’s has almost never rejected doing something because of her religion directly, it was always things that *made her uncomfortable* that she rejected, which ultimately included the religion itself. I could very easily see Joyce quickly rationalizing an excuse for why birth control is okay if it stops her from being in horrible pain semi-regularly.
dinajoyce
I’m pretty sure Joyce is also aware doctors exist??? Like, at some point this has probably already been discussed with her PCP in her life and whatever the discussion was, she was probably present for it. If she wants to try to bring it up with a new doctor, she is an adult who is capable of scheduling her own appointments.
Lexi
YES! Joyce is just as much an adult as Dotty and Becky. All of them have probably spent their life with people telling them periods just suck sometimes, without actually qualifying that sometimes, they suck TOO MUCH because something is WRONG.
Of all of them, Joyce is the one best equipped to talk to her doctor to see if this is a normal amount of pain. And hopefully has, honestly.
Feathers
People who menstruate often grow up believing that periods are *supposed* to be absolute hell. This leads to them not seeking help, because it doesn’t occur to them that it might even be an option.
thejeff
It’s certainly possible, maybe even likely, but the idea that she might have mentioned this to a doctor at some point in the past doesn’t even seem to have come up.
Agemegos
They assumed that the treatment would be the Pill and not, say, life-saving surgery, without doing a proper differential diagnosis.
NEWS FLASH TO DOROTHY AND BECKY: being nineteen and smug is no substitute for a medical degree.
BBCC
The thing is, they’re almost certainly correct. A lot of doctors WILL just put her on a pill or some other form of birth control. MAYBE they give you a painkiller. Most people go a long time waiting for any other diagnosis and even longer for anything to be done with it. Joyce has had this problem before and it isn’t every period, so odds of it being anything life threatening are probably low. Regardless, doctors are very reluctant to do any sort of surgery on baby making parts if you don’t have kids and are younger than 30-35.
Agemegos
My grandfather was blind for fifteen years because he assumed that doctors couldn’t do anything about glaucoma. Then it turned out that he had a cataract. A simple operation and a monocle restored vision that he could have had all along.
BBCC
That is awful and I’m sorry to hear that, but it doesn’t change that women* complaining to doctors about period pain often are not taken seriously. If you have a doctor who WILL take it seriously, it’s luck of the freaking draw. And your grandfather had a diagnosis to work with – again, it’s often a challenge to GET a diagnosis.
It’s still worth while to see a doctor, but assuming the answer (or part of it) will most likely be birth control (which is used to treat all the most likely suspects for period pain) and that Joyce would not like that is pretty accurate.
* = Trans men, non binary folks, intersex folks, etc. too but A) People suck and so doctors often label them women and go right on ignoring them too and B) They also each have issues of their own relating to this so I’m gonna stick to my experience (and the likelihood on Joyce) and the data on women.
Agemegos
I know that some doctors are callous pricks, and I’ve had my share of trouble getting treatment e.g. for stonefish sting and for gout. (“Stonefish hurt more than that.”, apparently). Nevertheless it would be pretty poor of Joyce to avoid consulting a doctor for her pain and then blame the doctor, if that is indeed what she’s doing.
thejeff
Pretty sure Joyce isn’t doing that. She’s either never talked to a doctor about it in any detail or she already has and has been assured it’s just normal .
Agemegos
I’m complaining about Dorothy and Becky, not Joyce. They are assuming, on the basis of being teenagers who heard a rumour once, that if Joyce went to a doctor the doctor would make the diagnosis that they have heard of and prescribe the treatment they have heard of. On that basis, they have decided that it is not worth trying to badger Joyce into seeking treatment.
BBCC
Where are you getting ‘heard a rumour once’ as opposed to ‘this is the most common way this plays out’. Because I promise you, it IS.
This is like being angry they heard she was sneezing a lot one day, without a cough, congestion, any consistent environmental factors like dust or pollen and no fever, and said ‘You probably have the sniffles, you should go try some acetaminophen and get some rest’.
Agemegos
Grandad didn’t “have a diagnosis to work with”. He was an architect and an artist who lost his occupation for fifteen years because he assumed he knew why he was going blind and didn’t bother to consult a doctor about it. Then he mentioned his “glaucoma” to a doctor on a social occasion and the doctor said “Glaucoma? You have a cataract.” That’s the kind of danger that Joyce would face if she relied on ignorant and meddlesome teenagers for her diagnosis and treatment.
Or to put it another way, none of these dumb kids ought to be basing their decision on a reckless assumption that they know the medical cause of her pain and suffering and how it ought to be treated.
BBCC
My mistake. I assumed glaucoma was a misdiagnosis coming from another doctor.
I understand what you’re saying, but it’s still true that based on what we know of her issues, all the most likely causes ARE treated with birth control. There’s a very outside chance it could be cancer, but that’s less likely with all the symptoms only showing up during some cycles. They’re not being teenagers making reckless assumptions here. What they are describing IS, in fact, the reality of all the most likely diagnoses. That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t see a doctor, but it’s really weird to blame them for ‘assuming they know better’ when they’re almost certainly CORRECT.
PirateTawnee
A friend of mine has been a chronic pain sufferer her entire adult life, and from what she has said, doctors are very reluctant to listen to women patients period.
AY
Doctors won’t even touch an ovarian cyst unless it’s basically the size of an orange. The first solution will almost always be hormonal birth control to help shrink and prevent them without invasive surgery.
ischemgeek
I had d a cyst that was the size of a plum causing internal bleeding and they did sweet fuck all for it. 4 weeks in agony unable to stand up straight with nothing for pain till it resolved on its own.
So, uh, can confirm.
Opus the Poet
My daughter who lives in Scotland and works for the NHS presented with abdominal pain and cramps, they did an ultrasound in the ER to rule out her appendix and removed several ovarian cysts, I think the next day because it wasn’t life-threatening. But it might have been that night because she was incapacitated by the pain.
Agemegos
Maybe Joyce doesn’t have an ovarian cyst. Somebody ought to do an ultrasound.
Z
Agreed. There’s alternatives to birth control. I had a prescription pain medicine for my periods when I was Joyce’s age.
Dana
Well when you put it that way, I can understand where Joyce is coming from on mixing food.
True Survivor
For some reason, I find it hilarious that Joyce has to be given pills like a puppy. Probably because she vaguely looks like (and has the friendly personality of) a golden retriever.
Doctor_Who
We’d just pretend like we were eating candy, “accidentally” drop the pill, and then the dog would dart over and swallow it before we could get to it.
I doubt that method would work on Joyce.
True Survivor
Oh that is smart.
Needfuldoer