Granted, I played the cello, and the other instruments were clarinet and baritone, and we had precisely 1 performance (and we weren’t all playing at the same time). But it was technically a band!
We were called the Heirs of Air, and I’m not quite sure why.
Happened off panel in an alt demension of the Walkyverse and then there was when he tried a less drawn of the same thing except instead of Danny it was Amber. Also everyone but Mike was on the whole less emotionally scared- well Amber was really just better at moving, but still. Short Packed was pretty exclusively a comedy.
The comments on threesoms and abs are, as Shiro points out, jokes and silly commentary. I think we can all agree that Mike is an asshole, and that any time with him would not do Amber or Ethan any good.
Time Sage
You do remember Amber married in in the other verse right?
Yeah, but that was in a different universe where the rules of reality shaped around him to blunt the lasting consequences of his actions. In this world, he’s not just a jerk, he’s openly dangerous, because the world is our reality, and every hateful action he does has lasting impact on the person he does it to.
And we frequently get to see it, whether it be Amber/AG worsening her DID in fear of Mike’s comment about becoming an abuser like her dad or Ethan’s recloseting of himself in response to Mike’s “teasing”.
Adam
I hate to Defend Mike, but Ethan recloseting himself and pursuing Joyce is on Ethan.
Mike was trying to get Ethan to disagree with him.
He was clearly scandalized when it had opposite effect.
Ethan recloseting himself had more to do with Amber ignoring him and wanting to feel a sense of normalcy.
I think Ethan needs to get laid to accept his sexuality.
( And getting laid with someone he has genuine feelings for will go 1000x toward that. )
Danny and Ethan self sacrificing tendencies aren’t helping.
We see here that Ethan isn’t being tricked by Mike and knows what he’s doing. He’s just missing Mike s endgame of Dannyx Ethan.
While I can admit there’s room to interpret that as Mike trying to push Ethan the other direction, the fact that the result was still the opposite of what he theoretically intended is one reason why “helping” people using methods like his is a shit thing to do.
You know what was much, much more effective at getting Ethan out of the closet? Joyce’s (and Amber’s before that) gentle support, nudging him towards the door.
And seriously, whatever Mike’s endgame involving Danny is, I will be shocked if that goes according to plan. Even if his goal is getting Danny and Ethan together, this is a godawful fucking way to do it. People aren’t toys to be played with, even if you treat your toys far better than Mike does.
Seriously, Amber, it’s not worth it knowing he’s doing it to upset you (or someone else) down the line. You’ll either get kicked in the self esteem or in the empathy.
Mike always has a motive – he wants to upset someone. Not a good idea.
If we were talking about a random asshole who doesn’t make a habit of harassing all and sundry? Sure, go for it, screw the jackass with hot abs and never ever speak to him again.
Mike? This is only a road that can lead to regret.
On the contrary, considering someone’s pros and cons when you are attracted them and grouping them as “no way” “friend zone” “casual sex” and “relationship” material, then going into any situation with your eyes wide open is a very good idea indeed. Also adult, and indicative of an interest in sex.
Sure, but any system that puts ‘abs’ over ‘will use this to treat you or someone else like utter shit’ is a system that needs serious serious revamping because it is broken.
Like I get that libido is really good at making abs seem like something that should override “will treat you like shit”, but I’ve seen the broken pieces from those encounters enough to feel that they really are never worth it.
Gwen
Problem is there is no easy way to learn it. Best case scenario is watching a close friend go through it. Everyone always thinks it will be different for them.
Hellespont
Welcome to adult life and it’s many glorious shades of gray. Glad you want to revamp it, good luck with that.
First step, knowing the difference between casual sex and an ongoing one sided relationship. Both Ethan and Amber have experience with those and, once again, are not the helpless, innocent victims people try to paint tham as.
nightsbridge
Mike is EXPLICITLY trying to do it to destroy Ethan and/or Ethan’s friends. And they KNOW it.
This isn’t shades of gray. This is ‘that’s a stupid decision.’
foamy
Amber notwithstanding, banging Mike would be one of the worst decisions shown in this comic, ranking just beyond “spending any time with Mike at all” and somewhat under “fired a gun on a university campus”.
I feel like that would, sadly, capture a realistic part of the college experience. I’ve known so many people who had their first abusive relationships in college or truly disastrous/harmful sexual encounters and kind of hard-learned how to trust their instincts with regards to red flags from that.
Well, I don’t think they are helpless, but they are definitely naive and coming into this without a wealth of sexual experience (AG/Amber divided it very neatly, so the Amber alter was neatly cut out of a lot of the experience of having Danny and so is basing a lot of her sexual experience on the disastrous failed night with Ethan and thus from a similar point of sexual dynamics being largely theoretical).
And that’s reflected in this. Yeah, there’s a difference between casual sex and a relationship, but I think one of the roughest lessons a lot of youth learn the hard way is that casual sex with someone who is attractive or “temporarily nice” but is a massive asshole otherwise or full of red flags tends to be as bad an idea as getting into a relationship with them.
Like, it’s less long-term damaging, but in my observation, most folks who get with abusers, narcissists, or jerks for casual sex either end up having crap sex (because people who can’t see outside themselves or are awful tend to be the kind of empathyless people who are truly epically bad at knowing how to pleasure others and can get stuck on their own method of doing stuff no matter whether or not it works for you) or it is more long-term damaging.
Like, when the sex isn’t terrible, there’s often a future cost, because that usually means the asshole is a manipulator too so will use the fact that you had sex to justify some terrible action or make you feel bad about having sex* or try and angle you into something more long-term and destructive or just turn on you afterwards in a way that is harmful and ruins the momentary afterglow of a decent night’s sex.
*Like the most benign version I’ve seen and the closest to being worth it I saw is one that went relatively okay (they were still crap at sex) until they heard the person speak at any mutual event they went to and then got filled with shame for who they had slept with each time. And that’s the best case I’ve personally witnessed. And I’ve witnessed way too many worst case scenarios. The most heart-breaking are the ones who settle or change in bad ways to try and rationalize the encounter (like giving up their feminism or their political beliefs because “it’s easier and we fight less that way”).
And I’ve seen it happen enough to be really wary of getting 100 miles of folks who leak out red flags and warn folks of the same, because most of the times, there’s a big downside that’s coming from it and sometimes there’s a really bad downside that leaves long-term damage.
Like I get the draw, I guess, abstractly, but dudes like Mike no matter how small the encounter are frequently never worth it and rarely leave the person happy and satisfied that they got together with them and frequently end up some bitter story of cynicism hard-won later on**.
** Which is a reason the worst human beings seem so fixated on dating partners as young as humanly possible. Because older partners have often been burned enough times to see through their shit, whereas younger partners are more likely to still hold on to the toxic narratives that makes them think someone like this might be worth a quick tumble.
BBCC
Whether it’s casual sex or an ongoing relationship, they KNOW Mike wants it to hurt someone – whether it’s them or someone else.
It being casual sex doesn’t make it a good idea, and yes, I’ll stand by that. If you prioritize abs over emotional health or empathy, you are making a bad decision
Hellespont
All of that assumes trauma. Just because Mike wants something, doesn’t mean Mike gets it. There are a lot of emotive words being thrown around, none of which are inevitable consequences, or even likely.
Two adults are discussing a third person both are attracted to, and the pros and cons of casual sex with them. Nothing could be healthier, or smarter.
Trauma. The destruction of emotional health and all the other overly dramatic sweeping and inaccurate generalisations may make you feel like you have a handle on the situation, but it’s just sex. The worst consequence Mike has envisaged is making Danny jealous, not exactly damning his soul to hell.
What is the worst Mike can do to Ethan after one night stand? Out him at college? Already done. Out him to his parents? He doesn’t even need to sleep with him to do that.
A little too much overwrought hyperbole in this discussion. Earth is back this way…
BBCC
Because screwing someone you KNOW wants to hurt you or someone else is still a REALLY TERRIBLE idea. If it doesn’t end up working, that’s just luck. Mike planning to turn Danny into ‘a whimpering, jealous mess’ is still a fucking awful thing to do.
I don’t think you’ve been paying attention because people have been talking about the worst thing Mike can do to Ethan – wreck his friendship with Danny, or hold this over his head to be a douche.
Talking about pros and cons of sex is healthy and smart. Deciding ‘is certainly planning sex so he can upset someone in some way’ is outranked by ‘hot abs’ is a terrible idea.
Hellespont
I have already dealt with most of that. You really should pay more attention. Also, your shift key appears to be broken, getting that fixed will prevent you from looking ridiculous in future.
As for Danny and Ethan’s friendship, both Danny and Ethan already have friends that have had sex with other people. Danny has had sex with one of the two people in this strip. Somehow their friendship has survived this trauma. I am not as convinced as you that the only grounds for friendship they have is Ethan’s celibacy.
Also, could I please have a diagram detailing how one would hold sex over someone’s head? It sounds like it would require a lot of flexibility.
Me, I like playing with fire, I even have a couple of cool party tricks. Haven’t been burned yet. Looks great, is dangerous can be a lot of fun and definitely worth it.
BBCC
Really badly, but sure. And my shift key is fine.
Because Mike’s entire plan is to use this to hurt Danny by reducing him to a jealous wreck. Even if Ethan doesn’t do anything to Danny, Mike will make sure Danny doesn’t hear the end of it until he’s miserable. Having sex with someone, sure, having sex with someone who is knowingly and willingly aiming to make Danny jealous can very easily wreck a friendship. Even if Mike doesn’t succeed, it’s still a terrible thing for him to try to do.
Rubbing it in, bringing it up at inopportune times, using that to try to angle for a larger commitment, using that as evidence you enjoy their shit, etc. are all ways people can hold sex over someone’s head.
Cool. Good for you. That doesn’t make it okay to talk down to people telling folks to be careful around fire – or that hanging out with the guy who does his damnedest to burn people on purpose is a terrible idea.
Hellespont
Refer to my previous responses. Everything is already covered there.
As for the nonsense about my being condescending, thanks, irony is always hilarious. I needed a good laugh.
BBCC
Yeah, really badly.
I didn’t say anything about you being condescending, but nice try.
Oh, then let me do it. Hellespont, you’re condescending as fuck.
Sex is not just sex. Sex is not an action separate from the body, disconnected from the rest of one’s life, like a free-floating ball. Sex involves vulnerability. Sex involves intimacy. Sex involves risk.
And sex is rarely neutral.
Like, I would argue good sex is frequently a good thing and good casual sex or play I have seen directly can be uplifting, joyous, and put folks in a great mood and make them feel right in the world even if they have no plans to ever see them and even if one of them is aromantic and has no interest in forming any romantic relationships with everyone.
CONTENT WARNING: All the depressing things (sexual assault, abuse, suicidal ideation)
But bad sex? Bad sex can get traumatic as fuck. Here, let me point out some of the ways:
There’s good ol’ fashioned rape and there’s about a billion and a half ways that consent can get violated or a person can end up sexually assaulted. Someone refusing to listen to the revoking of consent of an action, being filmed without their permission and the video sold to porn distributors or put online, someone being pressured into a form of sex they don’t want because they are made to feel they “owe” it by going on a casual sex date, having someone “forget” to use condoms or otherwise remove them in the course of having sex [Julian Assange was a big fan of this bit of fuckery], and many many others.
Hell, I had an encounter in a scene where I had an action I specifically said couldn’t happen in the scene, they did it, I yellowed, told them that action could never happen again, they did it again, I reded, they ignored it and did it again until I used the house safe word. That put me off pick-up-play for about 3 years after that. Casual thing, was never expecting to see that person after that scene, still fucked me up.
There’s abuse. Sex is vulnerable so abusive assholes love using those vulnerable moments to chisel away at the self-esteem of the people they are sleeping with. One of my ex’s abusive exes was a piece of shit who assumed that women should be mind-readers and know the exact very specific way he needed to get off in a way that was “porntastic” enough to feel like “proper” sex and so he would constantly belittle her no matter what she did about how shit she was as a lay and use that to extract favors out of the bedroom to “make up for it”. That led to a complex about performative sex that lasted 5 years and made it impossible for her to go down on a person without hearing his belittling and emotional abuse.
There’s STIs. Like, they’re not the life-enders most people assume they are, but they are annoying. Once had a scene where an idiot top used a tool that pierced skin that they had used on other people without sterilizing on me and I had to red and then stew for a couple of months to wait until everything could show if I had anything, get tested, and wait for results.
There’s internal judgment. Most assholes are bad at sex, so having a shitty encounter where your partner is shit and the whole time is shit but you overlooked a bunch of things like bigotry about groups you care about, shitty actions they have done, or ways they mistreat you just feels awful. Cause it’s like you betrayed your sense of morals for sex that wasn’t even remotely worth it.
There’s good old fashioned pregnancy scares which are going to become more and more terrifying if US’s current government continues down its current path.
There’s lovely stalking. Had to help evacuate a friend from their house and give them a place to crash for a couple of nights because a one-night stand followed them home and angrily demanded a second date because of the “strength” of their “connection”. Put them off dating anyone for a good year after that.
There’s body dysphoria. Happens a lot to us trans folks. Partner insists on using our genitals in their “proper” ways or “accidentally touches those areas”. That can fuck you up for a good while after.
With kink there can be dangerous marks, things you can’t hide at work and the fallout that comes with that.
There’s injuries such as some asshole thinking that “jackhammer” “technique” they saw in a porno is exactly what your vagina needs to get off. My ex basically ended up being unable to have penetrative sex with anyone for 6 years because one of their first partners did this to her the first time she tried penetrative sex (and without lube or foreplay either).
There’s blackmail and exposure. Tyler Clementi kissed a guy he had met in his room and his shitty roommate turned that into an underground harassment campaign that threatened to out him to his conservative parents, leading to Tyler taking his own life.
And many trans women have learned that a one-night stand or the wrong person becoming sexually attracted to you regardless of your intentions can be the difference between going home safe and having your name read on Transgender Day of Remembrance.
Now again, sex can be great. Casual sex can be amazing and as a DM I’ve seen that a lot, way more than I’ve seen it go wrong in fact, but I’ve picked up a lot of sharp shattered pieces from folks who ignored the red flags and decided to go for a tumble because “it’s just sex, what’s the worst that could happen”.
Assholes are never worth the price they make you pay in return for the shit sex they give.
And they ruin the good times for everyone, because it makes the people who take that risk for the high potential of a really enjoyable evening a lot more hesitant to ever do so again.
While it’s totally fine that you see things differently, being condescending and dismissive about it is not.
Many of those predicting this to end up hurting Ethan are explicitly basing that on real life experiences. Even if the story doesn’t go that direction, or as far in that direction as some people think, those predictions aren’t “overly dramatic hyperbole”. That is a seriously shitty way to describe someone talking about emotional trauma.
Saying “it’s just sex” is hand-waving away the fact that not everyone can have casual sex without SOME level of emotional investment. And emotional investment opens him up to all kinds of avenues for emotional abuse, which Cerberus already commented on in detail.
Hellespont
I think you will find the other people in this thread are not the only ones with real life experience. Some of us obviously have a great deal more than others.
The overly dramatic hyperbole would be overly dramatic hyperbole with or without this strip.
It is just sex. That is exactly what this strip is saying. Eyes, arms and legs wide open.
Hellespont, I’m well aware that you may have experiences that you based your opinion on. That’s why I didn’t dismiss it or you. But your experience doesn’t cancel out theirs.
It also doesn’t justify your continued condescension. “Some of IS obviously have more of it than others”? Do you really want to be THAT person?
The fact that casual, no-strings-attached sex is both totally possible and not at all harmful does not guarantee that’s how things would go. People warning how this could blowing back on Ethan if he goes through with it Especially since it has been shown that Mike’s motivation for pursuing Ethan is hurting people.
If we were talking about some random character we knew nothing about, it would be jumping the gun to assume sleeping with him could go badly. But it isn’t. This is Mike. Not only does that make it harder to keep it casual, since they already have a history, but since it’s Mike, we have good reason to assume malice on his part.
Hellespont
Yes, it does. Especially as mine actually applies to the topic at hand.
Just to repeat that terribly condescending statement. Ethan and Amber are having an adult conversation. I doubt things are going to go anywhere near as badly as everyone seems to think. It is possible for characaters to Be something other than victims, no matter how often you declare their martyrdom.
Mike has given no signs of being an actual evil genius, or of possessing a mind control machine. Ethan and Amber are the ones making the choices and they are both completely aware of what they are getting into.
In this, Ethan stands up to someone for like the first time in his life, stating that he really cares about Danny as a person and warning Mike off of hurting him and begging on behalf of their friendship for that.
Mike’s response is to state to the 4th wall that he’s still going to go through with his plan to hurt the two of them, that he’s planning to pursue Ethan for the sole express purpose of hurting him and Danny, and doing so after lying to Ethan’s face about leaving Danny alone.
And he’s doing this because Danny dared appear. In other strips, he’s noted that if he knew that either Amber or Ethan got a partner, that he would intentionally sleep with them just to cause Amber or Ethan pain, leaving them needing to hide their partners in most public spaces lest Mike find out they exist (after all, this plan started off because Danny had a minute or two flirty conversation with Ethan in Mike’s presence.)
In addition to this, because we know this is his chosen action and intention, that colors his clear attempts to seduce Ethan and play to his insecurities, showing sudden interest in his “dumb nerd shit” to get Ethan to lower his guard, timing leaving another guy’s room so that he’ll “reveal” his queerness to Ethan and make him think that he’s an easier individual to start to date than an unknown person he’d have to warm up to, gaslighting Ethan about it when Ethan notices that there’s an ulterior motive going on, and so on.
You state that you feel Ethan and Amber are more than victims.
No shit. They are always more than victims. All people victimized, who have survived shitty situations are more than victims.
But they are being targeted by a person who means to harm them, who is openly toxic to their healing process and mental health, and who has created real measurable harm to both of them. Who will abuse them and has abused them in the past.
That’s toxic. That’s dangerous. Recognizing that doesn’t make Ethan and Amber victims.
They may choose to overlook that. A lot of young folks do. The weary cynicism of age frequently is won out of a lot of shitty situations and trauma. And there’s a lot of cultural messages that say that there’s nothing that could possibly go wrong or it will be worth the risk.
And if/when Mike hurts them, that’s not on either of them for being naive or for ignoring the red flags. That’s on Mike for being a miserable troll who lives for hurting others who have no institutional power to hurt him back.
Saying that sleeping with an abusive asshole would be a bad idea isn’t “declaring their martyrdom” (in part because that doesn’t make sense on any level). Nor is it some kind of victim mentality. Because you know what’s a great way to create more victims? Insisting that shit like this is worth the risk.
There’s other dudes out there they could have a good time banging, and who wouldn’t make their skin crawl afterward.
373 thoughts on “Labels”
Ana Chronistic
THREESOME
…which will never happen, because Mike
factorsofx
Damnit you beat me to it. This needs to happen!
Nono
In all honesty, rooming with a crush is a terrible, terrible idea, unless you’re already in a committed relationship (and even then it’s maybe 50/50).
Reltzik
That said, it’s a teenage relationship. Most of those are terrible ideas that we end up calling “learning experiences”.
Cerberus
The problem is that these kinds of learning experiences frequently are the ones that leave years-long scars.
Dave
Hell no, why settle when we could have Danny as the meat in an Ethan and Amber sandwich?
Pablo360
Foursome!
Smiling Cat
Only a few steps closer to the sexularity.
Pablo360
That was the name of my last band.
Which was weird, because we specialized in lighthearted lyrical covers to famous film scores.
Also because I’ve never been in a band.
Pablo360
Except — wait a minute, I WAS in a band!
Granted, I played the cello, and the other instruments were clarinet and baritone, and we had precisely 1 performance (and we weren’t all playing at the same time). But it was technically a band!
We were called the Heirs of Air, and I’m not quite sure why.
Pablo360
Wait no, we DID all play together on one song, but we never got around to playing my arrangement of Habanera (from Carmen).
Charles
…. “Wait, no! We DID play my arrangement of Habanera, but it only lasted for a minute and a half until our clarinetist broke out into a coughing fit.”
Pablo360
No, that was the clarinet duet I wrote back when our baritonist played the clarinet.
a snow ʍousɐ
@Charles Nice one :p
Knuf Wons
Wasn’t it Heirs of Heirs, because of your father’s contemporary band?
Toad
AKA that fabled however-many-characters-are-in-this-cast-some?
Smiling Cat
Everybody but Daisy.
She doesn’t get to join the Sexularity.
Needfuldoer
Joyce takes one shoe off then goes catatonic on the floor in the corner, with the bug-eyed shocked expression frozen on her face.
N0083rP00F
and Zee Captain sits down beside her sipping from his steaming mug as his scarf gently pats her head.
Nono
Wasn’t Danny the wonderbread?
RacingTurtle
This little threadlet makes me smile. Dave, Pablo360, & Nono, I just want you to know you made someone smile today.
John
Ethan/Danny/Amber: the only sandwich where the Wonderbread is in the middle.
DarkoNeko
*snerk*
badmartialarts
Girl there’s only one kind of sandwich that’ll really satisfy
Love sandwich
Love sandwich uh-huh
timemonkey
Because Mike would actually do it while Danny almost certainly would not?
Dana
Mike is well aware that threesomes have plenty of opportunity for horrible emotional fallout. He’d make sure it happened.
Meep
Happened off panel in an alt demension of the Walkyverse and then there was when he tried a less drawn of the same thing except instead of Danny it was Amber. Also everyone but Mike was on the whole less emotionally scared- well Amber was really just better at moving, but still. Short Packed was pretty exclusively a comedy.
SCAR MAN!!!
I’m still not sure that wasn’t just Mike fucking with them
TheAnonymousGuy
it already did in shortpacked
Vi
Well he DID fuck both of them in shortpacked canon. and then super marry Amber.
Nono
“Threesome.” they said in unison.
Emperor Daniel
But threesomes never solve anything!
Mr. Random
It solves the desire for a threesome.
Shade
Hmm could just make someone want more threesomes though.
BBCC
That is a terrible reason to fuck a pisstake like Mike, Amber. Don’t encourage this.
Doctor_Who
Like the entire comments section doesn’t routinely encourage things like this.
Shiro
Yeah, but not *sincerely*
Passchendaele
The comments on threesoms and abs are, as Shiro points out, jokes and silly commentary. I think we can all agree that Mike is an asshole, and that any time with him would not do Amber or Ethan any good.
Time Sage
You do remember Amber married in in the other verse right?
Clif
Only after she had blackmail material.
Cerberus
Yeah, but that was in a different universe where the rules of reality shaped around him to blunt the lasting consequences of his actions. In this world, he’s not just a jerk, he’s openly dangerous, because the world is our reality, and every hateful action he does has lasting impact on the person he does it to.
And we frequently get to see it, whether it be Amber/AG worsening her DID in fear of Mike’s comment about becoming an abuser like her dad or Ethan’s recloseting of himself in response to Mike’s “teasing”.
Adam
I hate to Defend Mike, but Ethan recloseting himself and pursuing Joyce is on Ethan.
Mike was trying to get Ethan to disagree with him.
He was clearly scandalized when it had opposite effect.
Ethan recloseting himself had more to do with Amber ignoring him and wanting to feel a sense of normalcy.
I think Ethan needs to get laid to accept his sexuality.
( And getting laid with someone he has genuine feelings for will go 1000x toward that. )
Danny and Ethan self sacrificing tendencies aren’t helping.
We see here that Ethan isn’t being tricked by Mike and knows what he’s doing. He’s just missing Mike s endgame of Dannyx Ethan.
Fart Captor
While I can admit there’s room to interpret that as Mike trying to push Ethan the other direction, the fact that the result was still the opposite of what he theoretically intended is one reason why “helping” people using methods like his is a shit thing to do.
You know what was much, much more effective at getting Ethan out of the closet? Joyce’s (and Amber’s before that) gentle support, nudging him towards the door.
And seriously, whatever Mike’s endgame involving Danny is, I will be shocked if that goes according to plan. Even if his goal is getting Danny and Ethan together, this is a godawful fucking way to do it. People aren’t toys to be played with, even if you treat your toys far better than Mike does.
Shiro
Having fucked a dude in high school for that EXACT reason, I concur. The abs are a goddamn angler’s bulb.
BBCC
Seriously, Amber, it’s not worth it knowing he’s doing it to upset you (or someone else) down the line. You’ll either get kicked in the self esteem or in the empathy.
Fart Captor
It’s a perfectly good reason for a one-night stand with no emotional attachment.
This being Ethan, still a really bad idea.
BBCC
Mike always has a motive – he wants to upset someone. Not a good idea.
If we were talking about a random asshole who doesn’t make a habit of harassing all and sundry? Sure, go for it, screw the jackass with hot abs and never ever speak to him again.
Mike? This is only a road that can lead to regret.
Pablo360
IIRC the person he’s trying to hurt here is Danny.
And IIGC it’s totally going to work.
Fart Captor
Oh, but he can multitask. Hurting Danny will end up hurting Ethan and/or lead to cascading bad decisions.
Angelbadman
On the contrary, considering someone’s pros and cons when you are attracted them and grouping them as “no way” “friend zone” “casual sex” and “relationship” material, then going into any situation with your eyes wide open is a very good idea indeed. Also adult, and indicative of an interest in sex.
BBCC
Sure, but any system that puts ‘abs’ over ‘will use this to treat you or someone else like utter shit’ is a system that needs serious serious revamping because it is broken.
Cerberus
Yeah. It really is.
Like I get that libido is really good at making abs seem like something that should override “will treat you like shit”, but I’ve seen the broken pieces from those encounters enough to feel that they really are never worth it.
Gwen
Problem is there is no easy way to learn it. Best case scenario is watching a close friend go through it. Everyone always thinks it will be different for them.
Hellespont
Welcome to adult life and it’s many glorious shades of gray. Glad you want to revamp it, good luck with that.
First step, knowing the difference between casual sex and an ongoing one sided relationship. Both Ethan and Amber have experience with those and, once again, are not the helpless, innocent victims people try to paint tham as.
nightsbridge
Mike is EXPLICITLY trying to do it to destroy Ethan and/or Ethan’s friends. And they KNOW it.
This isn’t shades of gray. This is ‘that’s a stupid decision.’
foamy
Amber notwithstanding, banging Mike would be one of the worst decisions shown in this comic, ranking just beyond “spending any time with Mike at all” and somewhat under “fired a gun on a university campus”.
Cerberus
I feel like that would, sadly, capture a realistic part of the college experience. I’ve known so many people who had their first abusive relationships in college or truly disastrous/harmful sexual encounters and kind of hard-learned how to trust their instincts with regards to red flags from that.
Cerberus
Well, I don’t think they are helpless, but they are definitely naive and coming into this without a wealth of sexual experience (AG/Amber divided it very neatly, so the Amber alter was neatly cut out of a lot of the experience of having Danny and so is basing a lot of her sexual experience on the disastrous failed night with Ethan and thus from a similar point of sexual dynamics being largely theoretical).
And that’s reflected in this. Yeah, there’s a difference between casual sex and a relationship, but I think one of the roughest lessons a lot of youth learn the hard way is that casual sex with someone who is attractive or “temporarily nice” but is a massive asshole otherwise or full of red flags tends to be as bad an idea as getting into a relationship with them.
Like, it’s less long-term damaging, but in my observation, most folks who get with abusers, narcissists, or jerks for casual sex either end up having crap sex (because people who can’t see outside themselves or are awful tend to be the kind of empathyless people who are truly epically bad at knowing how to pleasure others and can get stuck on their own method of doing stuff no matter whether or not it works for you) or it is more long-term damaging.
Like, when the sex isn’t terrible, there’s often a future cost, because that usually means the asshole is a manipulator too so will use the fact that you had sex to justify some terrible action or make you feel bad about having sex* or try and angle you into something more long-term and destructive or just turn on you afterwards in a way that is harmful and ruins the momentary afterglow of a decent night’s sex.
*Like the most benign version I’ve seen and the closest to being worth it I saw is one that went relatively okay (they were still crap at sex) until they heard the person speak at any mutual event they went to and then got filled with shame for who they had slept with each time. And that’s the best case I’ve personally witnessed. And I’ve witnessed way too many worst case scenarios. The most heart-breaking are the ones who settle or change in bad ways to try and rationalize the encounter (like giving up their feminism or their political beliefs because “it’s easier and we fight less that way”).
And I’ve seen it happen enough to be really wary of getting 100 miles of folks who leak out red flags and warn folks of the same, because most of the times, there’s a big downside that’s coming from it and sometimes there’s a really bad downside that leaves long-term damage.
Like I get the draw, I guess, abstractly, but dudes like Mike no matter how small the encounter are frequently never worth it and rarely leave the person happy and satisfied that they got together with them and frequently end up some bitter story of cynicism hard-won later on**.
** Which is a reason the worst human beings seem so fixated on dating partners as young as humanly possible. Because older partners have often been burned enough times to see through their shit, whereas younger partners are more likely to still hold on to the toxic narratives that makes them think someone like this might be worth a quick tumble.
BBCC
Whether it’s casual sex or an ongoing relationship, they KNOW Mike wants it to hurt someone – whether it’s them or someone else.
It being casual sex doesn’t make it a good idea, and yes, I’ll stand by that. If you prioritize abs over emotional health or empathy, you are making a bad decision
Hellespont
All of that assumes trauma. Just because Mike wants something, doesn’t mean Mike gets it. There are a lot of emotive words being thrown around, none of which are inevitable consequences, or even likely.
Two adults are discussing a third person both are attracted to, and the pros and cons of casual sex with them. Nothing could be healthier, or smarter.
Trauma. The destruction of emotional health and all the other overly dramatic sweeping and inaccurate generalisations may make you feel like you have a handle on the situation, but it’s just sex. The worst consequence Mike has envisaged is making Danny jealous, not exactly damning his soul to hell.
What is the worst Mike can do to Ethan after one night stand? Out him at college? Already done. Out him to his parents? He doesn’t even need to sleep with him to do that.
A little too much overwrought hyperbole in this discussion. Earth is back this way…
BBCC
Because screwing someone you KNOW wants to hurt you or someone else is still a REALLY TERRIBLE idea. If it doesn’t end up working, that’s just luck. Mike planning to turn Danny into ‘a whimpering, jealous mess’ is still a fucking awful thing to do.
I don’t think you’ve been paying attention because people have been talking about the worst thing Mike can do to Ethan – wreck his friendship with Danny, or hold this over his head to be a douche.
Talking about pros and cons of sex is healthy and smart. Deciding ‘is certainly planning sex so he can upset someone in some way’ is outranked by ‘hot abs’ is a terrible idea.
Hellespont
I have already dealt with most of that. You really should pay more attention. Also, your shift key appears to be broken, getting that fixed will prevent you from looking ridiculous in future.
As for Danny and Ethan’s friendship, both Danny and Ethan already have friends that have had sex with other people. Danny has had sex with one of the two people in this strip. Somehow their friendship has survived this trauma. I am not as convinced as you that the only grounds for friendship they have is Ethan’s celibacy.
Also, could I please have a diagram detailing how one would hold sex over someone’s head? It sounds like it would require a lot of flexibility.
Me, I like playing with fire, I even have a couple of cool party tricks. Haven’t been burned yet. Looks great, is dangerous can be a lot of fun and definitely worth it.
BBCC
Really badly, but sure. And my shift key is fine.
Because Mike’s entire plan is to use this to hurt Danny by reducing him to a jealous wreck. Even if Ethan doesn’t do anything to Danny, Mike will make sure Danny doesn’t hear the end of it until he’s miserable. Having sex with someone, sure, having sex with someone who is knowingly and willingly aiming to make Danny jealous can very easily wreck a friendship. Even if Mike doesn’t succeed, it’s still a terrible thing for him to try to do.
Rubbing it in, bringing it up at inopportune times, using that to try to angle for a larger commitment, using that as evidence you enjoy their shit, etc. are all ways people can hold sex over someone’s head.
Cool. Good for you. That doesn’t make it okay to talk down to people telling folks to be careful around fire – or that hanging out with the guy who does his damnedest to burn people on purpose is a terrible idea.
Hellespont
Refer to my previous responses. Everything is already covered there.
As for the nonsense about my being condescending, thanks, irony is always hilarious. I needed a good laugh.
BBCC
Yeah, really badly.
I didn’t say anything about you being condescending, but nice try.
Cerberus
BBCC-
Oh, then let me do it. Hellespont, you’re condescending as fuck.
Sex is not just sex. Sex is not an action separate from the body, disconnected from the rest of one’s life, like a free-floating ball. Sex involves vulnerability. Sex involves intimacy. Sex involves risk.
And sex is rarely neutral.
Like, I would argue good sex is frequently a good thing and good casual sex or play I have seen directly can be uplifting, joyous, and put folks in a great mood and make them feel right in the world even if they have no plans to ever see them and even if one of them is aromantic and has no interest in forming any romantic relationships with everyone.
CONTENT WARNING: All the depressing things (sexual assault, abuse, suicidal ideation)
But bad sex? Bad sex can get traumatic as fuck. Here, let me point out some of the ways:
There’s good ol’ fashioned rape and there’s about a billion and a half ways that consent can get violated or a person can end up sexually assaulted. Someone refusing to listen to the revoking of consent of an action, being filmed without their permission and the video sold to porn distributors or put online, someone being pressured into a form of sex they don’t want because they are made to feel they “owe” it by going on a casual sex date, having someone “forget” to use condoms or otherwise remove them in the course of having sex [Julian Assange was a big fan of this bit of fuckery], and many many others.
Hell, I had an encounter in a scene where I had an action I specifically said couldn’t happen in the scene, they did it, I yellowed, told them that action could never happen again, they did it again, I reded, they ignored it and did it again until I used the house safe word. That put me off pick-up-play for about 3 years after that. Casual thing, was never expecting to see that person after that scene, still fucked me up.
There’s abuse. Sex is vulnerable so abusive assholes love using those vulnerable moments to chisel away at the self-esteem of the people they are sleeping with. One of my ex’s abusive exes was a piece of shit who assumed that women should be mind-readers and know the exact very specific way he needed to get off in a way that was “porntastic” enough to feel like “proper” sex and so he would constantly belittle her no matter what she did about how shit she was as a lay and use that to extract favors out of the bedroom to “make up for it”. That led to a complex about performative sex that lasted 5 years and made it impossible for her to go down on a person without hearing his belittling and emotional abuse.
There’s STIs. Like, they’re not the life-enders most people assume they are, but they are annoying. Once had a scene where an idiot top used a tool that pierced skin that they had used on other people without sterilizing on me and I had to red and then stew for a couple of months to wait until everything could show if I had anything, get tested, and wait for results.
There’s internal judgment. Most assholes are bad at sex, so having a shitty encounter where your partner is shit and the whole time is shit but you overlooked a bunch of things like bigotry about groups you care about, shitty actions they have done, or ways they mistreat you just feels awful. Cause it’s like you betrayed your sense of morals for sex that wasn’t even remotely worth it.
There’s good old fashioned pregnancy scares which are going to become more and more terrifying if US’s current government continues down its current path.
There’s lovely stalking. Had to help evacuate a friend from their house and give them a place to crash for a couple of nights because a one-night stand followed them home and angrily demanded a second date because of the “strength” of their “connection”. Put them off dating anyone for a good year after that.
There’s body dysphoria. Happens a lot to us trans folks. Partner insists on using our genitals in their “proper” ways or “accidentally touches those areas”. That can fuck you up for a good while after.
With kink there can be dangerous marks, things you can’t hide at work and the fallout that comes with that.
There’s injuries such as some asshole thinking that “jackhammer” “technique” they saw in a porno is exactly what your vagina needs to get off. My ex basically ended up being unable to have penetrative sex with anyone for 6 years because one of their first partners did this to her the first time she tried penetrative sex (and without lube or foreplay either).
There’s blackmail and exposure. Tyler Clementi kissed a guy he had met in his room and his shitty roommate turned that into an underground harassment campaign that threatened to out him to his conservative parents, leading to Tyler taking his own life.
And many trans women have learned that a one-night stand or the wrong person becoming sexually attracted to you regardless of your intentions can be the difference between going home safe and having your name read on Transgender Day of Remembrance.
Now again, sex can be great. Casual sex can be amazing and as a DM I’ve seen that a lot, way more than I’ve seen it go wrong in fact, but I’ve picked up a lot of sharp shattered pieces from folks who ignored the red flags and decided to go for a tumble because “it’s just sex, what’s the worst that could happen”.
Assholes are never worth the price they make you pay in return for the shit sex they give.
And they ruin the good times for everyone, because it makes the people who take that risk for the high potential of a really enjoyable evening a lot more hesitant to ever do so again.
Fart Captor
While it’s totally fine that you see things differently, being condescending and dismissive about it is not.
Many of those predicting this to end up hurting Ethan are explicitly basing that on real life experiences. Even if the story doesn’t go that direction, or as far in that direction as some people think, those predictions aren’t “overly dramatic hyperbole”. That is a seriously shitty way to describe someone talking about emotional trauma.
Saying “it’s just sex” is hand-waving away the fact that not everyone can have casual sex without SOME level of emotional investment. And emotional investment opens him up to all kinds of avenues for emotional abuse, which Cerberus already commented on in detail.
Hellespont
I think you will find the other people in this thread are not the only ones with real life experience. Some of us obviously have a great deal more than others.
The overly dramatic hyperbole would be overly dramatic hyperbole with or without this strip.
It is just sex. That is exactly what this strip is saying. Eyes, arms and legs wide open.
Fart Captor
Hellespont, I’m well aware that you may have experiences that you based your opinion on. That’s why I didn’t dismiss it or you. But your experience doesn’t cancel out theirs.
It also doesn’t justify your continued condescension. “Some of IS obviously have more of it than others”? Do you really want to be THAT person?
The fact that casual, no-strings-attached sex is both totally possible and not at all harmful does not guarantee that’s how things would go. People warning how this could blowing back on Ethan if he goes through with it Especially since it has been shown that Mike’s motivation for pursuing Ethan is hurting people.
If we were talking about some random character we knew nothing about, it would be jumping the gun to assume sleeping with him could go badly. But it isn’t. This is Mike. Not only does that make it harder to keep it casual, since they already have a history, but since it’s Mike, we have good reason to assume malice on his part.
Hellespont
Yes, it does. Especially as mine actually applies to the topic at hand.
Just to repeat that terribly condescending statement. Ethan and Amber are having an adult conversation. I doubt things are going to go anywhere near as badly as everyone seems to think. It is possible for characaters to Be something other than victims, no matter how often you declare their martyrdom.
Mike has given no signs of being an actual evil genius, or of possessing a mind control machine. Ethan and Amber are the ones making the choices and they are both completely aware of what they are getting into.
Cerberus
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/percent/
This is the strip in question.
In this, Ethan stands up to someone for like the first time in his life, stating that he really cares about Danny as a person and warning Mike off of hurting him and begging on behalf of their friendship for that.
Mike’s response is to state to the 4th wall that he’s still going to go through with his plan to hurt the two of them, that he’s planning to pursue Ethan for the sole express purpose of hurting him and Danny, and doing so after lying to Ethan’s face about leaving Danny alone.
And he’s doing this because Danny dared appear. In other strips, he’s noted that if he knew that either Amber or Ethan got a partner, that he would intentionally sleep with them just to cause Amber or Ethan pain, leaving them needing to hide their partners in most public spaces lest Mike find out they exist (after all, this plan started off because Danny had a minute or two flirty conversation with Ethan in Mike’s presence.)
In addition to this, because we know this is his chosen action and intention, that colors his clear attempts to seduce Ethan and play to his insecurities, showing sudden interest in his “dumb nerd shit” to get Ethan to lower his guard, timing leaving another guy’s room so that he’ll “reveal” his queerness to Ethan and make him think that he’s an easier individual to start to date than an unknown person he’d have to warm up to, gaslighting Ethan about it when Ethan notices that there’s an ulterior motive going on, and so on.
You state that you feel Ethan and Amber are more than victims.
No shit. They are always more than victims. All people victimized, who have survived shitty situations are more than victims.
But they are being targeted by a person who means to harm them, who is openly toxic to their healing process and mental health, and who has created real measurable harm to both of them. Who will abuse them and has abused them in the past.
That’s toxic. That’s dangerous. Recognizing that doesn’t make Ethan and Amber victims.
They may choose to overlook that. A lot of young folks do. The weary cynicism of age frequently is won out of a lot of shitty situations and trauma. And there’s a lot of cultural messages that say that there’s nothing that could possibly go wrong or it will be worth the risk.
And if/when Mike hurts them, that’s not on either of them for being naive or for ignoring the red flags. That’s on Mike for being a miserable troll who lives for hurting others who have no institutional power to hurt him back.
Fart Captor
What Cerberus said.
Saying that sleeping with an abusive asshole would be a bad idea isn’t “declaring their martyrdom” (in part because that doesn’t make sense on any level). Nor is it some kind of victim mentality. Because you know what’s a great way to create more victims? Insisting that shit like this is worth the risk.
There’s other dudes out there they could have a good time banging, and who wouldn’t make their skin crawl afterward.
AnvilPro
Mike’s good at his job.
wheelpath