Cue montage of Billifer cheering people up through being bad at stuff. With obligatory 80s-esque montage music.
(You’re the worst! Around! No one ever leaves you down!
You’re the worst! Around! No one ever leaves you down!
You’re the worst! Around! No one ever leaves you dooooooowwwwwwwn owwwww-owwwwnnnn….)
Nah Billie, that’s just evidence of your ignorance. ?
On the plus side, at least more of Jennifer’s inner-Billie is starting to surface, so for what it’s worth it’s a step in the right direction? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But this is completely consistent with her attitude from the beginning.
powerpowerpow
Agreed. To me, she’s always been a “you hate to hate her” character because whenever she makes decisions, whether good or bad, it’s so often for the wrong reasons. I don’t want to dislike her, because deep down inside, she’s a good person who’s driven by a need to help others. Problem is, her primary driver is a need to be better than everyone around her.
Neurodivergence is any mental illness or deisoder, not just autism and/or ADHD, so yeah, those definitely count.
UrsulaDavina
Neurodivergnce is :” differing in mental or neurological function from what is considered typical or normal (frequently used with reference to autistic spectrum disorders)” it is something that effects cognitive ability not a mental illness classifying conditions such as anxiety and depression as neurodivergent causes problems beacuse those are mental illness that needs to be treated while neurodivergency is a condition that you can live with and even thrive.
The person who actually coined the term disagrees with you. Direct link to the post as my Website URL. I’ve bolded the part where they specifically say that mental illnesses count.
“PSA from the actual coiner of “neurodivergent”
Yo. Many of you need to take an entire stadium of seats. Like a football arena in Texas number.
I coined neurodivergent before tumblr was even a thing, like a decade or more ago, because people were using ‘neurodiverse’ and ‘neurodiversity’ to just mean autistic, & possibly LDs. But there’s more, like way more, ways a person can have a different yet fucking perfect dammit brain.
Neurodivergent refers to neurologically divergent from typical. That’s ALL.
I am multiply neurodivergent: I’m Autistic, epileptic, have PTSD, have cluster headaches, have a chiari malformation.
Neurodivergent just means a brain that diverges.
Autistic people. ADHD people. People with learning disabilities. Epileptic people. People with mental illnesses. People with MS or Parkinsons or apraxia or cerebral palsy or dyspraxia or no specific diagnosis but wonky lateralization or something.
That is all it means. It is not another damn tool of exclusion. It is specifically a tool of inclusion. If you don’t want to be associated with Those People, then YOU are the one who needs another word. Neurodivergent is for all of us.
Annoyedly yours,
Neurodivergent K of Radical Neurodivergence Speaking”
UrsulaDavina
Meant to hit reply you have a point I am sorry if I caused you distress on this.
StClair
“But then how am I going to form my cozy little in-group so I can feel superior to everyone outside of it??”
(don’t worry, you’ll find a way. humans always have.)
Those stars weren’t so big. They were really so small
You might think such a thing wouldn’t matter at all…
Sean
I mean, there are very valid reasons for wanting to have a label for people outside their marginalized group, but if people want a word for “not-autistic” the term allistic already exists.
Fuzzy
If they coined it after neurodiverse and neurodiversity were already things, I dunno how watertight their claim is on coining it. They’re similar enough that I can see lots of people coming to it independently. But I dunno, maybe they’ve got a solid claim.
(I appreciate their definition and use it myself, personally.)
Felian
Thank you, that is amazing.
Being mindful of how we use labels matters.
I think the worry of gatekeeping a label comes from the fear that someone will go „well i am neurodivergent and my experience is universal, so yours isn’t valid“ and will try to speak for all ND people. And will be listened to by the public because they are loud and more convenient in their opinion than the rest of us.
As long as we are humbly communicating that our experience is personal, not universal, and keep listening and validating other people’s experience within the label, we can share the labels someone made for people who might be similar to our experience. Empowerment for all of us without taking it away from each other! <3
Joy
I really don’t like the implication that neurodivergency could be conflated with mental illness.
For some of them, that might just be the college talking.
I am, as far as I know, neurotypical. But a combination of stress, poor sleep due to needing to both work and handle classes, lousy dietary habits, and general angsty/hormonal teenagerness definitely took a toll during my college years.
Yeah, I get we need to normalize neurodivergence so it isn’t taboo, but saying every-single-mental-thing might end up not being a good thing? Or a bit of a slippery slope?
Like for example, I had PTSD. I say “had” because I went and got treatment for it to stop the PTSD. But you don’t go and get treatment for autism. Autism is just another way of having a brain in the meat mechasuit we call a body. You can get as much “treatment” as you want, autism doesn’t stop or go away. PTSD, things like anxiety and depression can be treated and in some cases ultimately go away. Autism doesn’t go away, even if “treated” (please note the use of quotes).
It also opens up the pathway to go back the other direction, and I still remember when autism WAS considered a mental illness and attempted to “treat” away. I don’t like heading back in that direction, it was a bad time.
Joyfulldreams
It’s really not. You’re making mountains out of molehills, here. Neurodivergent is not a medical term, it is a social term that is MEANT to be inclusive of all different kinds of folks with experiences in common when it comes to mental health.
Are you also going to say the same of the word “disabled”? There are some disabilities which can be treated, and others which can’t and that most people probably don’t WANT to be treated because they resent the idea that their difference in how they live their life is considered a defect in them which must be fixed–and all that can be done is to provide accommodations so that the disabled person can more easily exist and function within an abled society.
Nonetheless. Both types of disability are still disabilities, because you are disabled in your ability to function as ‘expected’ within society. And the same thing goes for neurodivergence. Whatever the cause or whether it’s ‘treatable’, the fact remains that your experience of how your mind works deviates from the norm in a way which impacts how you are treated and perceived by others and how you are able to function in society, because society is not built to meaningfully accommodate your experience.
And that impact and experience of being and feeling othered is what the term ‘neurodivergent’ is meant to describe. The reason it needs to be normalized is not because ‘oh these weirdos can’t help it or change themselves so we should be more accepting’, it’s to simply create a society which more broadly accommodates the many different ways brains can work. Even if that state is potentially temporary, it still needs to be accommodated. Part of those accommodations might even be treatment.
Joy
We already have a term for people who are mentally disabled. It is “mentally disabled.”
So that would include neurodivergency, mental illness, and trauma.
Fuzzy
Even then, those things don’t always go away. Some people’s brains just are like that. (And genetic predisposition to it — even to PTSD iirc — points that direction.)
ADHD is closer to autism than it is to PTSD in this comparison, but that can also be treated, and in a lot of cases it’s super beneficial to treat even though it’s just how your brain naturally works.
BTW Suzi many places autism still is considered an “illness” that needs to be “cured”, no thanks to the very goal vicious practices of the hate group Autism Speaks. ?
The fact that you think that this is an issue is very telling of what you think ‘neurodivergence’ even is.
It’s not supposed to be some in-group out-group thing where there’s a clear defined line between the two. It is a term which describes a certain kind of experience within society, of which some people deal with quite a lot more than others. To the degree that having a word to describe that experience and axis of system oppression is useful. That’s it.
Hopefully someday, the word neurodivergent IS useless, and describes nothing of note. That’s SORT OF THE GOAL.
Yeah, but as long as the norms are out there, a lot of people are perceived as normal.
For example, if normal weight of an apple is 170g to 210g (kinda fictional, idk), then of course you can go ahead and say „all apples have different weight“, but both the apple at 171g and the apple at 209g will be perceived as within the „acceptable“ weight, while the apple at 120g will probably be thrown away rather than sold in the supermarket, and the apple at 340g will be sold as a special deal. Yes, all apples are different, but that doesn’t mean some of them aren’t considered typical apples.
(sorry?? She’s clearly not neurotypical. Think about how she sits in chairs. Oral fixation. The way she’s always fidgeting. She’s calmest when she’s stunting. Needs to multitask. Struggles to follow directions in spite of being highly intelligent.)
Joy
Raidah is almost certainly neurotypical though. Or that one bowtie guy, the british one. Oh, and Ruth’s grandfather. Gash-face. Those people.
I would really be careful in stating anxiety and depression as neurodivergent behavoir beacuse its onset isn’t always driven by genetics it can be driven by outside forces and can go into remission unlike other neurodivergent behavoir.
Why is that such a terrible thing to include? Why would it have to be exclusively genetic conditions? It’s not like there’s A Single Treatment For Neurodivergent People that we’d be compromising. What exactly are we being careful of? What’s the fear here that we should be careful to avoid??
UrsulaDavina
I really don’t like generalizing all conditions under an umbrella term beacuse i fear it will lead to misconceptions about said conditions. It may not in alot of people’s but I have had live with depression anxiety autism adhd and dyslexia all needing different approaches in handling it and misconceptions has led to negative outcomes and i aware that my experince does not reflect everyones experience but i hasnt been for me and like me not everyone is an expert in neurological behavoir or brain chemistry and I don’t want people to spread misinformation yeah I know I might have done so in one my previous comments which makes me feel god awful beacuse but I try to err on the side of caution when talking about subjects that I really don’t have an expertise on alm on this subject I have is my own experience and my experience has sucked.
Yeah I also ramble to be honest I feel shitter now then i did before and regret commenting
Devin
It’s true, they do all take different approaches. But that’s also true for almost any combination of things that can fall under the neurodivergent umbrella, even excepting non-genetic conditions.
The thing that I feel is that if we don’t create an umbrella term, people like Jennifer are just going to continue to call us weirdos. I see an umbrella term as a way for us to find common ground with each other, even when we respond differently to the myriad ways in which the world was not built for us. I don’t think this will compound existing misconceptions, and I think since there are so many ways to be neurodivergent it could have the impact of gaining solidarity with folks who may not have thought of themselves as one of us.
As you can see, brevity is not a defining character trait for me. If it makes you feel any better, I harbor no grudge against you, I appreciate your ability and willingness to hear and listen.
UrsulaDavina
I don’t harbor any ill will I have not been having a great week so I amm more sensitive then usual
Suzi
Because most mental illnesses aren’t the same as something like autism. I said in a comment above, but my PTSD was treatable. My anxiety was treatable. Autism is not “treatable”. There are coping mechanisms and things you can learn, sure, but it isn’t “take this pill and your autism goes away” – I can definitely see some maybe fitting the neurodivergent umbrella but I also worry about it swinging back the other way, back when autism was thought to be a mental illness that could be “treated” away, often resulting in abuse to a lot of autistic folks. These things matter.
Devin
ADHD is (to a degree) treatable, but is just as genetic and persistent as a bunch of other things. Too many divisions just creates separation, and we all have needs for society to take us into account when designing…everything really. This is no less true for people with depression, anxiety, or PTSD.
I’m absolutely thrilled for you that your PTSD and anxiety were treatable. But wouldn’t it have been even better if you could reliably count on accommodations or being given grace before treatment takes hold? And for folks whose similar conditions are only semi-treatable or even not treatable? I like an umbrella term because these are things we all need, even if they don’t look the same for everyone under the umbrella. The need that we all share is a general shift in societal thinking.
RedCat
My depression definitely altered my brain (depression can make you worse at focusing, for one), and it’s never going to go away. It’s always going to affect my life and make me different from a lot of people.
I feel like it counts.
Masumi
I know that feeling – but from my experience, depression can absolutely go away. It took years of learning and healing and figuring out how to pilot this meat vehicle I’m in, and sure, when I let my habits slip it creeps up sometimes. But right now, my brain is atypical as hell, but not depressed.
? Totes on that one Masumi, piloting this human meat vehicle. I swear working with my host brain and body is a bongo and a half, like trying to get a picture on a TV that never came with an instruction manual — when you just barely get it working after a day of exhausting effort trying to get it that way, you be like “you know what, this is good enough, I’ll stop here”.
Masumi
You know, on that topic, you might wanna check out huberman lab podcast on YouTube. It’s basically 1-2 hour lectures by a neuroscientist on how to cooperate with you brain. They’re awesome.
Hrodvitnir
There is a big difference between juvenile-onset mood disorders and what I think of as “situational” depression. The latter can be just as or more dangerous and can last years, but they are not the same.
I can tell you right now that my brain, fucked since childhood, probably with contributing genetics but an obvious trauma basis, is NEVER going to be neurotypical. And I very much appreciated the psychistrist who corroborated that: you can improve, but there is no such thing as becoming psychologically within normal when your pathways were fucked while they were still developing.
/constantly bitter at people thinking “get therapy” means you can just erase mental illness. No, you can mitigate it and learn strategies to function in the world. Obviously you can in some cases! But it’s not a given! I spend too much time on AITA.
RedCat
I mean, sure, you can work to be stable, but I’ve been living with depression for over 10 years, even after I felt really stable and healthy for almost a whole year. But even then I had depressive episodes. I don’t think it will ever completely go away.
RedCat
And like, I will never know how it feels not to be depressed, and I’ve had… SO many experiences with people just not being able to understand why I’m sad or empty or exhausted for apparently no reason, or I can’t get shit done if it’s – to them – quite easy.
So I def think depression counts as neurodivergent. It’s just a term for “you probably CAN’T get me because my brain works differently from yours”.
It definitely counts as mental illness, but I would say, having had it, no I don’t think it counts as neurodivergence.
Joyfulldreams
You personally do not identify as neurodivergent. Great for you. Don’t speak for others, thanks. Your experiences are not universal and your consistently ableist and exclusionary language in this comment section whenever this topic comes up is honestly getting a little tiresome.
perchance
@Joyfulldreams +others also being jerks
nO, YOu.
Look, Suzi has only been talking about their personal experience and how they personally understand their experience within the spectrum of human experience, neuropathy, and psychology. They aren’t speaking for others. They are speaking for themselves. That’s a good approach for having good faith discussion.
You (and others) shutting down people from talking honestly about their personal experiences because it doesn’t align with an absolutist ‘inclusivity’ narrative is not helpful, it’s pretty dismissive and rude. Personally, I believe the entire point of having these conversations is to better understand the diversity of human experience. To understand and be more understanding of differences, and that is how you foster real inclusivity, by understanding, accepting, and tolerating differences. By better understanding each other, we can overcome stigma, oppression, othering, etc etc.
At this point in time, we (humans) absolutely do not understand human neuropathy and psychology completely. This isn’t an opinion, that’s just where we’re at with human knowledge. We’re honestly just barely starting to approach it from a perspective of trying to understand it, rather than just classifying it as demonic possession or more generally using it as a tool for oppression. To say that any ideology of human neuropathy and psychology is Absolutely The One Answer is honestly a refusal to engage in real understanding and learning. You do not know everything. I do not know everything. We do not know everything. When we accept that, we can begin to learn, and to better understand. We know our own experiences. We can listen to the experiences of others. We can learn from those along with evidence-based studies and better our understanding. It’s a process.
With neurodiversity, neurodivergency, the spectrum of human psychology, and mental health, and how to label things, the point is to be able to communicating experience, which can help with understanding differences and overlap. So that we can better understand, help, and make reasonable accommodations. That is more important than semantics of language, or at least I personally think it ought to be. Refusing to accept someone’s personal, lived experience, is not inclusive. It’s excluding a personal experience (and excluding people) because it doesn’t match an abstract dogma you’re granting absolutist status to. I don’t think that’s helpful.
Yumi
Swing and a miss. Suzi said that they don’t think PTSD “counts” as neurodivergence. That’s not “speaking for themselves,” and the people objecting to that have fair points. I don’t disagree with the concept of a lot of your other points, but I do think you come off as a jerk about it when you’re acting like other people made claims that they didn’t.
Joyfulldreams
I genuinely have no idea what you’re responding to, because never at any point have I made any of the claims you seem to think I am. Everyone is absolutely free to talk about their own individual experiences, but they…don’t give you the right to decide what does or does not ‘count’ as neurodivergence, and every other time this topic has come up in the past Suzi has said things like ‘Autism is a worthless word because it’s too broad’ and ‘if Joyce is autistic, nobody is’, which are extremely judgemental and dismissive things to say and are by no means “talking about their personal experiences”. Slinging around judgements based on their own biases, more like.
I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that I ever claimed to know everything about…anything? All I’ve done is explained the sociopolitical role that terms like ‘neurodivergent’ and ‘disabled’ or even ‘autistic’ play in giving people the vocabulary to speak about broad sociological phenomenon.
I’m not even the one talking about semantics! It’s the people who are sitting around trying to argue that x or y thing doesn’t “count” as neurodivergent because “technically mental illnesses can be cured, so they shouldn’t be lumped together with things like autism using the same word” that are getting so bogged down in semantics!
Why am I the one being called a jerk, when the person I responded to is literally one of the people doing the thing you are accusing me of?!
Yumi
Are you sure it was Suzi who said those things? I mean, I’ve gone looking, and while I find comments from other people making similar claims, I don’t see any attributed to Suzi. I do see some posts like that from “Lucky Winner,” who also has a Malaya Gravatar, but as far as I can tell, they’re not the same person.
Nova
And I would say, having C-PTSD, that it does count as neurodivergence. Not everyone experiences things or views things in the way that you do, and you are not the sole voice of authority on the topic. Please kindly stop “correcting” people using that term as an umbrella.
Feel free to say “I do not identify as ND, and would like to not be referred to that way” and we’ll respect the hell out of it. Feel free to STOP saying “That’s not a neurodivergence because I said so.”
Proxiehunter
Especially when the term is meant to be used as an umbrella.
Now THAT I would like to see. ‘s got the same energy as Carla yelling in the hallway about fixing people’s problems, ripping the band-aids off left and right.
Eh, even if they do, I just hope it’s made clear that it’s not because of some “autism buddies” thing.
Something tells me that Joyce, being no stranger to black and white thinking, will alternate from loathing and freaking out about her neurodivergence to a position of toxic positivity, all the while frustrating Dina, who very likely has a VERY nuanced view of the topic. Considering that the bigoted systems that stopped Dina from getting a diagnosis pretend to be professional science, her passion and way of life, misconceptions of neurodivergence must be something that REALLY piss her off ?
It’s probably not that big a deal if Jennifer likes/respects you. Walky’s really the only one who blew the name thing out of proportion.
cbwroses
Hasn’t Walky respected the name change, for the most part?
It’s more her ditching everyone for the “cool kids” that he seems to focus on if anything.
And even then, he doesn’t object to her having new friends, just the being ditched part.
When they do interact, he tries to keep the same dynamic, and while she doesn’t seem to want that, that’s not really about the name in and of itself for either of them.
Sirksome
Has he? I don’t think Walky has once called her Jennifer since the name change. That and he purposefully mentioned “Billie” when they last talked. It’s pretty clear he doesn’t like the new name.
329 thoughts on “Pretty solid evidence”
Ana Chronistic
“You’re great at raising my self-esteem by comparison!”
“…”
The Wellerman
she’s the best wing-woman without even trying! ?
ThunderNight
She’s the best at being the worst
the illerman
“I feel like I’m the worst, so I always act like I’m the best.”
– Billie/Jennifer, probably
From “Oh No!” by MARINA
Roborat
And in Germany, she could be the wurst.
Reltzik
Cue montage of Billifer cheering people up through being bad at stuff. With obligatory 80s-esque montage music.
(You’re the worst! Around! No one ever leaves you down!
You’re the worst! Around! No one ever leaves you down!
You’re the worst! Around! No one ever leaves you dooooooowwwwwwwn owwwww-owwwwnnnn….)
Sirksome
Is this technically failing your way up?
Deathjavu
Another thing Billie and Walky have in common.
The fact that she would hate that comparison is a delicious bonus.
Reltzik
No, failing your way up looks more like floating fishies.
The Wellerman
4th panel:
Nah Billie, that’s just evidence of your ignorance. ?
On the plus side, at least more of Jennifer’s inner-Billie is starting to surface, so for what it’s worth it’s a step in the right direction? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Bryy
Ignorance *and* abelism.
Billie has quickly become, over three panels, my most hated character.
Seriously. Fucking anti-science bullshittery.
The Wellerman
Don’t worry, at the Big Bourgeois Breakfast, Walky will most likely have what it takes to make the seemingly solid “Jennifer” melt into air.
Then she can go back to doing what she’s best at — partying hard and crashing and making an ass of herself for the entertainment of others! ?
Even if “Jennifer” still remains intact afterwards, I’m sure the Empress of Evolution would be more than eager to kick her anti-science ass! ?
Needfuldoer
But this is completely consistent with her attitude from the beginning.
powerpowerpow
Agreed. To me, she’s always been a “you hate to hate her” character because whenever she makes decisions, whether good or bad, it’s so often for the wrong reasons. I don’t want to dislike her, because deep down inside, she’s a good person who’s driven by a need to help others. Problem is, her primary driver is a need to be better than everyone around her.
zee
I think it’s less anti science more she’s a. Dumbass, uneducated Midwestern kid. This is on the same level as her views on bisexuality
Liliet
This.
Nep
Oh you sweet summer child, I don’t think a single member of this cast is neurotypical. (Especially if you count depression and anxiety, which I do.)
The Wellerman
Hey I count depression and anxiety as neurodivergence too! Nice to know I’m not the only one!
Sean
Neurodivergence is any mental illness or deisoder, not just autism and/or ADHD, so yeah, those definitely count.
UrsulaDavina
Neurodivergnce is :” differing in mental or neurological function from what is considered typical or normal (frequently used with reference to autistic spectrum disorders)” it is something that effects cognitive ability not a mental illness classifying conditions such as anxiety and depression as neurodivergent causes problems beacuse those are mental illness that needs to be treated while neurodivergency is a condition that you can live with and even thrive.
Proxiehunter
The person who actually coined the term disagrees with you. Direct link to the post as my Website URL. I’ve bolded the part where they specifically say that mental illnesses count.
“PSA from the actual coiner of “neurodivergent”
Yo. Many of you need to take an entire stadium of seats. Like a football arena in Texas number.
I coined neurodivergent before tumblr was even a thing, like a decade or more ago, because people were using ‘neurodiverse’ and ‘neurodiversity’ to just mean autistic, & possibly LDs. But there’s more, like way more, ways a person can have a different yet fucking perfect dammit brain.
Neurodivergent refers to neurologically divergent from typical. That’s ALL.
I am multiply neurodivergent: I’m Autistic, epileptic, have PTSD, have cluster headaches, have a chiari malformation.
Neurodivergent just means a brain that diverges.
Autistic people. ADHD people. People with learning disabilities. Epileptic people. People with mental illnesses. People with MS or Parkinsons or apraxia or cerebral palsy or dyspraxia or no specific diagnosis but wonky lateralization or something.
That is all it means. It is not another damn tool of exclusion. It is specifically a tool of inclusion. If you don’t want to be associated with Those People, then YOU are the one who needs another word. Neurodivergent is for all of us.
Annoyedly yours,
Neurodivergent K of Radical Neurodivergence Speaking”
UrsulaDavina
Meant to hit reply you have a point I am sorry if I caused you distress on this.
StClair
“But then how am I going to form my cozy little in-group so I can feel superior to everyone outside of it??”
(don’t worry, you’ll find a way. humans always have.)
Needfuldoer
Now, the Star-Belly Sneetches had bellies with stars.
The Plain-Belly Sneetches had none upon thars.
Those stars weren’t so big. They were really so small
You might think such a thing wouldn’t matter at all…
Sean
I mean, there are very valid reasons for wanting to have a label for people outside their marginalized group, but if people want a word for “not-autistic” the term allistic already exists.
Fuzzy
If they coined it after neurodiverse and neurodiversity were already things, I dunno how watertight their claim is on coining it. They’re similar enough that I can see lots of people coming to it independently. But I dunno, maybe they’ve got a solid claim.
(I appreciate their definition and use it myself, personally.)
Felian
Thank you, that is amazing.
Being mindful of how we use labels matters.
I think the worry of gatekeeping a label comes from the fear that someone will go „well i am neurodivergent and my experience is universal, so yours isn’t valid“ and will try to speak for all ND people. And will be listened to by the public because they are loud and more convenient in their opinion than the rest of us.
As long as we are humbly communicating that our experience is personal, not universal, and keep listening and validating other people’s experience within the label, we can share the labels someone made for people who might be similar to our experience. Empowerment for all of us without taking it away from each other! <3
Joy
I really don’t like the implication that neurodivergency could be conflated with mental illness.
Doctor_Who
For some of them, that might just be the college talking.
I am, as far as I know, neurotypical. But a combination of stress, poor sleep due to needing to both work and handle classes, lousy dietary habits, and general angsty/hormonal teenagerness definitely took a toll during my college years.
Rainhat
Same, but with a small side of “just because you CAN now stay up until you physically flop over doesn’t mean you SHOULD”.
Nono
I mean if everyone is neurodivergent… nobody is, since nobody’s diverging from the norm.
But I’d say quite a few of them are culturally neurotypical. Joe, Sarah, Sal, Danny, etc.
Suzi
Yeah, I get we need to normalize neurodivergence so it isn’t taboo, but saying every-single-mental-thing might end up not being a good thing? Or a bit of a slippery slope?
Like for example, I had PTSD. I say “had” because I went and got treatment for it to stop the PTSD. But you don’t go and get treatment for autism. Autism is just another way of having a brain in the meat mechasuit we call a body. You can get as much “treatment” as you want, autism doesn’t stop or go away. PTSD, things like anxiety and depression can be treated and in some cases ultimately go away. Autism doesn’t go away, even if “treated” (please note the use of quotes).
It also opens up the pathway to go back the other direction, and I still remember when autism WAS considered a mental illness and attempted to “treat” away. I don’t like heading back in that direction, it was a bad time.
Joyfulldreams
It’s really not. You’re making mountains out of molehills, here. Neurodivergent is not a medical term, it is a social term that is MEANT to be inclusive of all different kinds of folks with experiences in common when it comes to mental health.
Are you also going to say the same of the word “disabled”? There are some disabilities which can be treated, and others which can’t and that most people probably don’t WANT to be treated because they resent the idea that their difference in how they live their life is considered a defect in them which must be fixed–and all that can be done is to provide accommodations so that the disabled person can more easily exist and function within an abled society.
Nonetheless. Both types of disability are still disabilities, because you are disabled in your ability to function as ‘expected’ within society. And the same thing goes for neurodivergence. Whatever the cause or whether it’s ‘treatable’, the fact remains that your experience of how your mind works deviates from the norm in a way which impacts how you are treated and perceived by others and how you are able to function in society, because society is not built to meaningfully accommodate your experience.
And that impact and experience of being and feeling othered is what the term ‘neurodivergent’ is meant to describe. The reason it needs to be normalized is not because ‘oh these weirdos can’t help it or change themselves so we should be more accepting’, it’s to simply create a society which more broadly accommodates the many different ways brains can work. Even if that state is potentially temporary, it still needs to be accommodated. Part of those accommodations might even be treatment.
Joy
We already have a term for people who are mentally disabled. It is “mentally disabled.”
So that would include neurodivergency, mental illness, and trauma.
Fuzzy
Even then, those things don’t always go away. Some people’s brains just are like that. (And genetic predisposition to it — even to PTSD iirc — points that direction.)
ADHD is closer to autism than it is to PTSD in this comparison, but that can also be treated, and in a lot of cases it’s super beneficial to treat even though it’s just how your brain naturally works.
The Wellerman
BTW Suzi many places autism still is considered an “illness” that needs to be “cured”, no thanks to the very goal vicious practices of the hate group Autism Speaks. ?
Joyfulldreams
The fact that you think that this is an issue is very telling of what you think ‘neurodivergence’ even is.
It’s not supposed to be some in-group out-group thing where there’s a clear defined line between the two. It is a term which describes a certain kind of experience within society, of which some people deal with quite a lot more than others. To the degree that having a word to describe that experience and axis of system oppression is useful. That’s it.
Hopefully someday, the word neurodivergent IS useless, and describes nothing of note. That’s SORT OF THE GOAL.
Felian
Yeah, but as long as the norms are out there, a lot of people are perceived as normal.
For example, if normal weight of an apple is 170g to 210g (kinda fictional, idk), then of course you can go ahead and say „all apples have different weight“, but both the apple at 171g and the apple at 209g will be perceived as within the „acceptable“ weight, while the apple at 120g will probably be thrown away rather than sold in the supermarket, and the apple at 340g will be sold as a special deal. Yes, all apples are different, but that doesn’t mean some of them aren’t considered typical apples.
Joy
Sal??????????????????
(sorry?? She’s clearly not neurotypical. Think about how she sits in chairs. Oral fixation. The way she’s always fidgeting. She’s calmest when she’s stunting. Needs to multitask. Struggles to follow directions in spite of being highly intelligent.)
Joy
Raidah is almost certainly neurotypical though. Or that one bowtie guy, the british one. Oh, and Ruth’s grandfather. Gash-face. Those people.
Joy
Rachel is also neurotypical.
UrsulaDavina
I would really be careful in stating anxiety and depression as neurodivergent behavoir beacuse its onset isn’t always driven by genetics it can be driven by outside forces and can go into remission unlike other neurodivergent behavoir.
Devin
…so what?
Why is that such a terrible thing to include? Why would it have to be exclusively genetic conditions? It’s not like there’s A Single Treatment For Neurodivergent People that we’d be compromising. What exactly are we being careful of? What’s the fear here that we should be careful to avoid??
UrsulaDavina
I really don’t like generalizing all conditions under an umbrella term beacuse i fear it will lead to misconceptions about said conditions. It may not in alot of people’s but I have had live with depression anxiety autism adhd and dyslexia all needing different approaches in handling it and misconceptions has led to negative outcomes and i aware that my experince does not reflect everyones experience but i hasnt been for me and like me not everyone is an expert in neurological behavoir or brain chemistry and I don’t want people to spread misinformation yeah I know I might have done so in one my previous comments which makes me feel god awful beacuse but I try to err on the side of caution when talking about subjects that I really don’t have an expertise on alm on this subject I have is my own experience and my experience has sucked.
Yeah I also ramble to be honest I feel shitter now then i did before and regret commenting
Devin
It’s true, they do all take different approaches. But that’s also true for almost any combination of things that can fall under the neurodivergent umbrella, even excepting non-genetic conditions.
The thing that I feel is that if we don’t create an umbrella term, people like Jennifer are just going to continue to call us weirdos. I see an umbrella term as a way for us to find common ground with each other, even when we respond differently to the myriad ways in which the world was not built for us. I don’t think this will compound existing misconceptions, and I think since there are so many ways to be neurodivergent it could have the impact of gaining solidarity with folks who may not have thought of themselves as one of us.
As you can see, brevity is not a defining character trait for me. If it makes you feel any better, I harbor no grudge against you, I appreciate your ability and willingness to hear and listen.
UrsulaDavina
I don’t harbor any ill will I have not been having a great week so I amm more sensitive then usual
Suzi
Because most mental illnesses aren’t the same as something like autism. I said in a comment above, but my PTSD was treatable. My anxiety was treatable. Autism is not “treatable”. There are coping mechanisms and things you can learn, sure, but it isn’t “take this pill and your autism goes away” – I can definitely see some maybe fitting the neurodivergent umbrella but I also worry about it swinging back the other way, back when autism was thought to be a mental illness that could be “treated” away, often resulting in abuse to a lot of autistic folks. These things matter.
Devin
ADHD is (to a degree) treatable, but is just as genetic and persistent as a bunch of other things. Too many divisions just creates separation, and we all have needs for society to take us into account when designing…everything really. This is no less true for people with depression, anxiety, or PTSD.
I’m absolutely thrilled for you that your PTSD and anxiety were treatable. But wouldn’t it have been even better if you could reliably count on accommodations or being given grace before treatment takes hold? And for folks whose similar conditions are only semi-treatable or even not treatable? I like an umbrella term because these are things we all need, even if they don’t look the same for everyone under the umbrella. The need that we all share is a general shift in societal thinking.
RedCat
My depression definitely altered my brain (depression can make you worse at focusing, for one), and it’s never going to go away. It’s always going to affect my life and make me different from a lot of people.
I feel like it counts.
Masumi
I know that feeling – but from my experience, depression can absolutely go away. It took years of learning and healing and figuring out how to pilot this meat vehicle I’m in, and sure, when I let my habits slip it creeps up sometimes. But right now, my brain is atypical as hell, but not depressed.
The Wellerman
? Totes on that one Masumi, piloting this human meat vehicle. I swear working with my host brain and body is a bongo and a half, like trying to get a picture on a TV that never came with an instruction manual — when you just barely get it working after a day of exhausting effort trying to get it that way, you be like “you know what, this is good enough, I’ll stop here”.
Masumi
You know, on that topic, you might wanna check out huberman lab podcast on YouTube. It’s basically 1-2 hour lectures by a neuroscientist on how to cooperate with you brain. They’re awesome.
Hrodvitnir
There is a big difference between juvenile-onset mood disorders and what I think of as “situational” depression. The latter can be just as or more dangerous and can last years, but they are not the same.
I can tell you right now that my brain, fucked since childhood, probably with contributing genetics but an obvious trauma basis, is NEVER going to be neurotypical. And I very much appreciated the psychistrist who corroborated that: you can improve, but there is no such thing as becoming psychologically within normal when your pathways were fucked while they were still developing.
/constantly bitter at people thinking “get therapy” means you can just erase mental illness. No, you can mitigate it and learn strategies to function in the world. Obviously you can in some cases! But it’s not a given! I spend too much time on AITA.
RedCat
I mean, sure, you can work to be stable, but I’ve been living with depression for over 10 years, even after I felt really stable and healthy for almost a whole year. But even then I had depressive episodes. I don’t think it will ever completely go away.
RedCat
And like, I will never know how it feels not to be depressed, and I’ve had… SO many experiences with people just not being able to understand why I’m sad or empty or exhausted for apparently no reason, or I can’t get shit done if it’s – to them – quite easy.
So I def think depression counts as neurodivergent. It’s just a term for “you probably CAN’T get me because my brain works differently from yours”.
not someone else
Dunno about everybody, but if nothing else, a substantial portion of the cast probably has PTSD, and that definitely counts.
Suzi
It definitely counts as mental illness, but I would say, having had it, no I don’t think it counts as neurodivergence.
Joyfulldreams
You personally do not identify as neurodivergent. Great for you. Don’t speak for others, thanks. Your experiences are not universal and your consistently ableist and exclusionary language in this comment section whenever this topic comes up is honestly getting a little tiresome.
perchance
@Joyfulldreams +others also being jerks
nO, YOu.
Look, Suzi has only been talking about their personal experience and how they personally understand their experience within the spectrum of human experience, neuropathy, and psychology. They aren’t speaking for others. They are speaking for themselves. That’s a good approach for having good faith discussion.
You (and others) shutting down people from talking honestly about their personal experiences because it doesn’t align with an absolutist ‘inclusivity’ narrative is not helpful, it’s pretty dismissive and rude. Personally, I believe the entire point of having these conversations is to better understand the diversity of human experience. To understand and be more understanding of differences, and that is how you foster real inclusivity, by understanding, accepting, and tolerating differences. By better understanding each other, we can overcome stigma, oppression, othering, etc etc.
At this point in time, we (humans) absolutely do not understand human neuropathy and psychology completely. This isn’t an opinion, that’s just where we’re at with human knowledge. We’re honestly just barely starting to approach it from a perspective of trying to understand it, rather than just classifying it as demonic possession or more generally using it as a tool for oppression. To say that any ideology of human neuropathy and psychology is Absolutely The One Answer is honestly a refusal to engage in real understanding and learning. You do not know everything. I do not know everything. We do not know everything. When we accept that, we can begin to learn, and to better understand. We know our own experiences. We can listen to the experiences of others. We can learn from those along with evidence-based studies and better our understanding. It’s a process.
With neurodiversity, neurodivergency, the spectrum of human psychology, and mental health, and how to label things, the point is to be able to communicating experience, which can help with understanding differences and overlap. So that we can better understand, help, and make reasonable accommodations. That is more important than semantics of language, or at least I personally think it ought to be. Refusing to accept someone’s personal, lived experience, is not inclusive. It’s excluding a personal experience (and excluding people) because it doesn’t match an abstract dogma you’re granting absolutist status to. I don’t think that’s helpful.
Yumi
Swing and a miss. Suzi said that they don’t think PTSD “counts” as neurodivergence. That’s not “speaking for themselves,” and the people objecting to that have fair points. I don’t disagree with the concept of a lot of your other points, but I do think you come off as a jerk about it when you’re acting like other people made claims that they didn’t.
Joyfulldreams
I genuinely have no idea what you’re responding to, because never at any point have I made any of the claims you seem to think I am. Everyone is absolutely free to talk about their own individual experiences, but they…don’t give you the right to decide what does or does not ‘count’ as neurodivergence, and every other time this topic has come up in the past Suzi has said things like ‘Autism is a worthless word because it’s too broad’ and ‘if Joyce is autistic, nobody is’, which are extremely judgemental and dismissive things to say and are by no means “talking about their personal experiences”. Slinging around judgements based on their own biases, more like.
I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that I ever claimed to know everything about…anything? All I’ve done is explained the sociopolitical role that terms like ‘neurodivergent’ and ‘disabled’ or even ‘autistic’ play in giving people the vocabulary to speak about broad sociological phenomenon.
I’m not even the one talking about semantics! It’s the people who are sitting around trying to argue that x or y thing doesn’t “count” as neurodivergent because “technically mental illnesses can be cured, so they shouldn’t be lumped together with things like autism using the same word” that are getting so bogged down in semantics!
Why am I the one being called a jerk, when the person I responded to is literally one of the people doing the thing you are accusing me of?!
Yumi
Are you sure it was Suzi who said those things? I mean, I’ve gone looking, and while I find comments from other people making similar claims, I don’t see any attributed to Suzi. I do see some posts like that from “Lucky Winner,” who also has a Malaya Gravatar, but as far as I can tell, they’re not the same person.
Nova
And I would say, having C-PTSD, that it does count as neurodivergence. Not everyone experiences things or views things in the way that you do, and you are not the sole voice of authority on the topic. Please kindly stop “correcting” people using that term as an umbrella.
Feel free to say “I do not identify as ND, and would like to not be referred to that way” and we’ll respect the hell out of it. Feel free to STOP saying “That’s not a neurodivergence because I said so.”
Proxiehunter
Especially when the term is meant to be used as an umbrella.
Nono
Yessss… let this lead to Joyce and Dina bonding….
Reltzik
Followed shortly by Becky bursting into Dina’s room and shouting “Hey Dina want to have more sex???” before seeing who’s there.
the illerman
Now THAT I would like to see. ‘s got the same energy as Carla yelling in the hallway about fixing people’s problems, ripping the band-aids off left and right.
The Wellerman
Eh, even if they do, I just hope it’s made clear that it’s not because of some “autism buddies” thing.
Something tells me that Joyce, being no stranger to black and white thinking, will alternate from loathing and freaking out about her neurodivergence to a position of toxic positivity, all the while frustrating Dina, who very likely has a VERY nuanced view of the topic. Considering that the bigoted systems that stopped Dina from getting a diagnosis pretend to be professional science, her passion and way of life, misconceptions of neurodivergence must be something that REALLY piss her off ?
jpnr
wonder if Joyce will be the only one allowed to use “Billie”
Nono
Sal calls her Billie, but that’s because Sal doesn’t buy the name change.
Sirksome
It’s probably not that big a deal if Jennifer likes/respects you. Walky’s really the only one who blew the name thing out of proportion.
cbwroses
Hasn’t Walky respected the name change, for the most part?
It’s more her ditching everyone for the “cool kids” that he seems to focus on if anything.
And even then, he doesn’t object to her having new friends, just the being ditched part.
When they do interact, he tries to keep the same dynamic, and while she doesn’t seem to want that, that’s not really about the name in and of itself for either of them.
Sirksome
Has he? I don’t think Walky has once called her Jennifer since the name change. That and he purposefully mentioned “Billie” when they last talked. It’s pretty clear he doesn’t like the new name.