Yeah. I kinda question the use of the word ‘good’ here at all.
What does Dorothy even mean by ‘good’? Moral? Well executed? Flawless?
What does Walky even mean? Perfect? Better than Walky?
I feel like this conversation can only end badly with them both speaking in platitudes.
High schoolers are basically taught that studying hard, getting good grades, and staying away from drugs and alcohol are all morally good.
VicMortimer
Yeah, but we didn’t buy it. I was a slacker, first time I had straight As in my life was in college, and that’s because college is easier for a slacker than high school. I definitely didn’t avoid alcohol, it was part of every party, I even made and sold the fake IDs. Drugs mostly waited until college and after, only had a little weed in high school. Way more weed now in my 50s, now that high quality edibles are sold in stores, I never liked smoking it.
My morals have no problem with any of that.
Indeed, it’s very common. Right the hand I use to draw with, and right the correct feel different. Right the accurate and right the moral feel the same. Humans have a big sloppy halo effect and want to put all the good things in one box. We are wired for tribal logic, rather than cool logic.
There are no good presidents. All of them are war criminals. She is internally debating whether or not her life goals will still make her “happy” even though they are objectively bad.
spriteless aunty
That… puts this in a different light than I had considered
thejeff
More like she’s considering whether she could live with the choices she’d have to make and whether she could do enough good in the position to make up for the bad, rather than “will being a monster make me happy”.
It’s a good thing she’s realized what she’s dealing with before the U.S government makes her the next Oppenheimer. But I don’t think doubling down and becoming the next President Truman instead is the answer to that.
(I’m referencing the fact that Truman off the record called Oppenheimer a cry baby bongo for feeling bad that he brought nukes into the world)
I was expecting Oppenheimer to be less of a full-tilt biopic (my fault for accepting a ticket without doing the research) but that was one of the most darkly comedic moments I’ve seen in a movie in a long time.
No, no, no. Even at her worst, Dorothy wouldn’t do that.
VicMortimer
I should be subversive the next time I go to Chicago.
Ok, maybe one bite, because ketchup on hot dogs is gross. But I can handle one bite.
someone
I don’t even understand how anyone can use a device connected to the Internet without putting an adblocker or twelve on it.
Steamweed
When internetting, always use protection.
eh, whatever
That one is not like the others. Seriously. Don’t do that.
Psychie
I’m not entirely sure because the way this site handles comment nesting makes it hard to tell where this lines up, but I presume you’re referring to the recyclables bit.
Recycling, specifically as it is currently handled, is not actually significantly better for the environment than how trash disposal is currently handled, and if both were actually handled the way the are SUPPOSED to be handled, recycling anything other than aluminum *would* be generally worse for the environment overall than trash disposal.
The process of recycling plastic and paper actually releases more greenhouse gases than just making new plastic and paper. But that’s just when recycling is done the way it’s supposed to be done.
Most of the recycling produced here in the US gets shipped overseas because capitalism, the barges that ship it overseas aren’t properly secured so a huge chunk of it gets accidentally dumped into the ocean, contributing to the plastic pollution as much if not more than improper garbage dumping does. Then, what actually DOES make it overseas, usually winds up in places like China and the Philippines where they don’t have much in the way of environmental protection laws so instead of actually recycling the recyclables, they just burn most of it, which is extremely bad for the atmosphere.
Garbage, on the other hand, is *supposed* to be buried in landfills located a certain distance away from the water tables so it doesn’t poison them, and deep enough that when it gets filled over with soil you can plant plants and the roots won’t reach the bad stuff so they can grow healthily. There are currently parks built over old landfills that have been filled in and all the trees and plants are healthy and beautiful, quality nature literally over top of the plastics, metal, and papers throw away over the decades. The paper biodegrades just fine over time, the metal doesn’t cause any significant issues, and the plastic *does* break down into something toxic (eventually), but it’s too far from the water tables to cause a problem and too deep to affect the plantlife up above.
If all garbage was disposed of properly, we only recycled aluminum and other metals, paper companies would stop deforesting and exclusively use trees farmed specifically for the purpose of paper production, we’d stop using much in the way of disposable plastics and instead focused on reuseable plastic, metal, and glass products, design products to be repaired and maintained instead of thrown away and replaced, and if we switched to clean energy sources as much as possible, then the environment would be fine long enough for us to figure out a way to undo the damage done.
Is all that feasible, probably not, unfortunately, but recycling isn’t anywhere close to better, especially not when it’s handled as poorly as it is, so getting all holier than thou about people who don’t do it consistently is just a waste of energy you could instead spend on either advocating for things that might actually work or enjoying the time we’ve got left with a livable planet.
Psychie
Wow, that was a LOT longer than I thought it was when I was typing it up, lol
Loved it <3
One thing i might correct though, in my understanding paper companies are not the main drivers of deforestation. That would be agriculture, particularly livestock.
HueSatLight
I was going to say I didn’t deforest, but we do cut volunteer saplings out of pastures. De-reforesting. And we buy some gluten feed too.
If it were cost free, I’d replace all the grass with deep-rooted species, that’s better at sequestering carbon that forest. Especially with what grows in our timber.
For anyone with lawn in North America, consider Buffalo Grass (Bouteloua dactyloides). Deep roots, drought resistant, infrequent to no mowing.
Psychie
That is correct that paper companies are not the main factor in deforestation, I just know that deforestation is *usually* pointed at as the reason we should recycle paper instead of making more, hence why I was suggesting paper companies should use sustainable methodology for harvesting their wood pulp, which as far as I am aware, most already do.
HueSatLight
now that Cannabis is being decriminalized in more places, maybe we can start growing industrial hemp for paper. doesn’t require as much chemical treatment, and better at taking CO2 out of the air.
Adept
This seems defensive as hell, and you trying to justify not recycling. It’s not working.
kind of audacious to paint “we need reusable items, and repairable, not disposable, tech” as “you’re trying to justify not recycling”
Nymph
You can easily google most of that information if you don’t think it’s true.
Psychie
It’s defensive because I’m actively trying to combat people talking down to others about their recycling habits in a pretentious and condescending manner, but it’s worth noting that I’m doing so by pointing out actual *facts* about the recycling industry. There is literally nothing I can do on an individual level to meaningfully affect the environment in a positive manner. There are things I can do that lower the impact I personally have, but recycling is factually not one of them.
Also, I don’t know about where you live, but where I live it costs MONEY to be able to recycle as it isn’t a service provided by my municipality, I literally cannot AFFORD to recycle, even if I DID think it would help the situation. So good job being condescending over poor people for not solving the problem caused by billionaires, you priviledged prick.
Li
Then there’s also the fact that a loooot of the push to recycle the way we currently do has absolutely come from giant companies successfully shifting the blame for pollution away from their massive manufacturing operations and onto individual consumers. “We all have to be responsible!” they say, “Sort your plastics properly to save the Earth!”
But as long as these huge corporations don’t do the work necessary to reduce their emissions or cut back on THEIR industrial usage of single-use unrecyclable plastic, all the rest of us being forced to switch to biodegradable cups and straws won’t make a meaningful impact (apart from on immunocompromised folks and those with allergies — making them sick or even killing them is a *kind* of impact).
Li
o hay someone else brought a citation for this while I was typing, heh.
Needfuldoer
There’s a reason “reduce” and “reuse” come before “recycle”.
But yeah, “plastic recycling” has always been smoke and mirrors. Glass and metal actually are recyclable, so are most types of paper.
oh man maybe she’s about to do something moderately subversive, which might, at worst, serve as a warning sign and maybe even a mild threat to the power structures at hand
One time I was having thoughts along the line of, “I am being so Good. I am going to handle this situation in a way that makes it so easy for the other person. I’m going to be Good and practical and have feelings that convey their value to me but not in a way that imposes on them” and anyway, some of these thoughts were happening while I was in the process of getting denied coverage for a medication, and that was unrelated, but I started crying because of my thoughts, and the poor pharmacist felt so bad.
It’s interesting to me that she says it’s a theory she keeps wanting to test, like she hasn’t been testing it. She’s just not good at being bad, and that’s okay.
The detail is that since she is overthinking things, she has not realized that, something tells me that singing will not be enough to lighten all this.
These two know one another very well. Of course, Dorothy’s evolving, as is Walky, so I imagine some of their knowledge of each other, and themselves, is going to have to evolve, too.
It’s good to see this kind of empathy towards Dorothy.
I’m serious, I know there are many characters and everyone has their favorite, but I think that if there were a ranking of who has been judged too harshly, it seems that the girl would take first place.
Perhaps you have noticed it in many comments, it seems that she is the only character who is most severely reproached for her mistakes.
Isn’t the evolution of a character supposed to take time and these steps, even if they are slow, should they be taken into account?
And regarding the future of these two, I only hope that this interaction continues.
154 thoughts on “Push me”
Ana Chronistic
“look, I’m workshopping What Dotty Wants, trying all the options, digging for sidequests, idk”
Sirksome
Being happy doesn’t mean always being good either. Even if you want it to.
Rose by Any Other Name
Yeah. I kinda question the use of the word ‘good’ here at all.
What does Dorothy even mean by ‘good’? Moral? Well executed? Flawless?
What does Walky even mean? Perfect? Better than Walky?
I feel like this conversation can only end badly with them both speaking in platitudes.
Slartibeast Button, BIA
[See old joke about the difference between a nice girl and a good girl.]
Rose by Any Other Name
**google fu**
… the joke that amounts to the nice girl has sex while the girl girl doesn’t?
Proxiehunter
I expected a pet play thing.
Bash
High schoolers are basically taught that studying hard, getting good grades, and staying away from drugs and alcohol are all morally good.
VicMortimer
Yeah, but we didn’t buy it. I was a slacker, first time I had straight As in my life was in college, and that’s because college is easier for a slacker than high school. I definitely didn’t avoid alcohol, it was part of every party, I even made and sold the fake IDs. Drugs mostly waited until college and after, only had a little weed in high school. Way more weed now in my 50s, now that high quality edibles are sold in stores, I never liked smoking it.
My morals have no problem with any of that.
spriteless aunty
Indeed, it’s very common. Right the hand I use to draw with, and right the correct feel different. Right the accurate and right the moral feel the same. Humans have a big sloppy halo effect and want to put all the good things in one box. We are wired for tribal logic, rather than cool logic.
Allen Alberti
There are no good presidents. All of them are war criminals. She is internally debating whether or not her life goals will still make her “happy” even though they are objectively bad.
spriteless aunty
That… puts this in a different light than I had considered
thejeff
More like she’s considering whether she could live with the choices she’d have to make and whether she could do enough good in the position to make up for the bad, rather than “will being a monster make me happy”.
Newlland(Henryvolt)
Dangerous road there Dorothy.
It’s a good thing she’s realized what she’s dealing with before the U.S government makes her the next Oppenheimer. But I don’t think doubling down and becoming the next President Truman instead is the answer to that.
(I’m referencing the fact that Truman off the record called Oppenheimer a cry baby bongo for feeling bad that he brought nukes into the world)
Schpoonman
I was expecting Oppenheimer to be less of a full-tilt biopic (my fault for accepting a ticket without doing the research) but that was one of the most darkly comedic moments I’ve seen in a movie in a long time.
Not that I watch many movies.
NGPZ
she gonna pirate a movie
RassilonTDavros
she gonna keep using winrar after the 40 day free trial period has ended
NGPZ
She gonna play a game with CHEAT CODES
NGPZ
She gonna put recyclables into the TRASH BiN
NGPZ
She gonna jailbreak her phone.
NGPZ
She gonna use an adblocker.
NGPZ
She gonna go to Chicago and put ketchup on a hotdog.
NGPZ
She gonna graffiti on a public restroom!
(69th comment BTW, count them if you also bored)
Ed Callahan
No, no, no. Even at her worst, Dorothy wouldn’t do that.
VicMortimer
I should be subversive the next time I go to Chicago.
Ok, maybe one bite, because ketchup on hot dogs is gross. But I can handle one bite.
someone
I don’t even understand how anyone can use a device connected to the Internet without putting an adblocker or twelve on it.
Steamweed
When internetting, always use protection.
eh, whatever
That one is not like the others. Seriously. Don’t do that.
Psychie
I’m not entirely sure because the way this site handles comment nesting makes it hard to tell where this lines up, but I presume you’re referring to the recyclables bit.
Recycling, specifically as it is currently handled, is not actually significantly better for the environment than how trash disposal is currently handled, and if both were actually handled the way the are SUPPOSED to be handled, recycling anything other than aluminum *would* be generally worse for the environment overall than trash disposal.
The process of recycling plastic and paper actually releases more greenhouse gases than just making new plastic and paper. But that’s just when recycling is done the way it’s supposed to be done.
Most of the recycling produced here in the US gets shipped overseas because capitalism, the barges that ship it overseas aren’t properly secured so a huge chunk of it gets accidentally dumped into the ocean, contributing to the plastic pollution as much if not more than improper garbage dumping does. Then, what actually DOES make it overseas, usually winds up in places like China and the Philippines where they don’t have much in the way of environmental protection laws so instead of actually recycling the recyclables, they just burn most of it, which is extremely bad for the atmosphere.
Garbage, on the other hand, is *supposed* to be buried in landfills located a certain distance away from the water tables so it doesn’t poison them, and deep enough that when it gets filled over with soil you can plant plants and the roots won’t reach the bad stuff so they can grow healthily. There are currently parks built over old landfills that have been filled in and all the trees and plants are healthy and beautiful, quality nature literally over top of the plastics, metal, and papers throw away over the decades. The paper biodegrades just fine over time, the metal doesn’t cause any significant issues, and the plastic *does* break down into something toxic (eventually), but it’s too far from the water tables to cause a problem and too deep to affect the plantlife up above.
If all garbage was disposed of properly, we only recycled aluminum and other metals, paper companies would stop deforesting and exclusively use trees farmed specifically for the purpose of paper production, we’d stop using much in the way of disposable plastics and instead focused on reuseable plastic, metal, and glass products, design products to be repaired and maintained instead of thrown away and replaced, and if we switched to clean energy sources as much as possible, then the environment would be fine long enough for us to figure out a way to undo the damage done.
Is all that feasible, probably not, unfortunately, but recycling isn’t anywhere close to better, especially not when it’s handled as poorly as it is, so getting all holier than thou about people who don’t do it consistently is just a waste of energy you could instead spend on either advocating for things that might actually work or enjoying the time we’ve got left with a livable planet.
Psychie
Wow, that was a LOT longer than I thought it was when I was typing it up, lol
milu
Loved it <3
One thing i might correct though, in my understanding paper companies are not the main drivers of deforestation. That would be agriculture, particularly livestock.
HueSatLight
I was going to say I didn’t deforest, but we do cut volunteer saplings out of pastures. De-reforesting. And we buy some gluten feed too.
If it were cost free, I’d replace all the grass with deep-rooted species, that’s better at sequestering carbon that forest. Especially with what grows in our timber.
For anyone with
lawnin North America, consider Buffalo Grass (Bouteloua dactyloides). Deep roots, drought resistant, infrequent to no mowing.Psychie
That is correct that paper companies are not the main factor in deforestation, I just know that deforestation is *usually* pointed at as the reason we should recycle paper instead of making more, hence why I was suggesting paper companies should use sustainable methodology for harvesting their wood pulp, which as far as I am aware, most already do.
HueSatLight
now that Cannabis is being decriminalized in more places, maybe we can start growing industrial hemp for paper. doesn’t require as much chemical treatment, and better at taking CO2 out of the air.
Adept
This seems defensive as hell, and you trying to justify not recycling. It’s not working.
Taffy
This is hilarious.
HueSatLight
recycling plastic is PR, to trick people into not caring about plastic waste. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/15/1231690415/plastic-recycling-waste-oil-fossil-fuels-climate-change.
kind of audacious to paint “we need reusable items, and repairable, not disposable, tech” as “you’re trying to justify not recycling”
Nymph
You can easily google most of that information if you don’t think it’s true.
Psychie
It’s defensive because I’m actively trying to combat people talking down to others about their recycling habits in a pretentious and condescending manner, but it’s worth noting that I’m doing so by pointing out actual *facts* about the recycling industry. There is literally nothing I can do on an individual level to meaningfully affect the environment in a positive manner. There are things I can do that lower the impact I personally have, but recycling is factually not one of them.
Also, I don’t know about where you live, but where I live it costs MONEY to be able to recycle as it isn’t a service provided by my municipality, I literally cannot AFFORD to recycle, even if I DID think it would help the situation. So good job being condescending over poor people for not solving the problem caused by billionaires, you priviledged prick.
Li
Then there’s also the fact that a loooot of the push to recycle the way we currently do has absolutely come from giant companies successfully shifting the blame for pollution away from their massive manufacturing operations and onto individual consumers. “We all have to be responsible!” they say, “Sort your plastics properly to save the Earth!”
But as long as these huge corporations don’t do the work necessary to reduce their emissions or cut back on THEIR industrial usage of single-use unrecyclable plastic, all the rest of us being forced to switch to biodegradable cups and straws won’t make a meaningful impact (apart from on immunocompromised folks and those with allergies — making them sick or even killing them is a *kind* of impact).
Li
o hay someone else brought a citation for this while I was typing, heh.
Needfuldoer
There’s a reason “reduce” and “reuse” come before “recycle”.
But yeah, “plastic recycling” has always been smoke and mirrors. Glass and metal actually are recyclable, so are most types of paper.
Decidedly Orthogonal
.. But will she use the cheat codes?
Yotomoe
Baby steps. She’s gonna watch a movie about pirates first.
Slartibeast Button, BIA
But is Dorothy a Slave Of Duty?
Agemegos
No. And what’s more, she never was one!
Nicoleandmaggie
❤️
zee
Legal in the Netherlands!
Taffy
She’s gonna drink a can of soda without facing the logo toward the camera.
Just_IDD
In a thread on right to repair, it was pointed out that with subscriptions you don’t own anything you buy, is piracy even theft?
shadowcell
oh man maybe she’s about to do something moderately subversive, which might, at worst, serve as a warning sign and maybe even a mild threat to the power structures at hand
Rose by Any Other Name
“Having sex would make me happy. So then… if you give me a good fucking, then I’ll be happy and good?”
– Dorothy, probably
Yotomoe
But what if the sex is bad?
Sirksome
She’s been satisfied with it before. 8
Rose by Any Other Name
Can’t be.
By definition, a ‘good fucking’ is good sex. It’s right there in the name.
HueSatLight
Doesn’t matter, had sex.
ValdVin
We haven’t heard anything about bad sex re Dotty*, so I imagine her breakups are for other reasons.
*Well, we know that Amana is her last resort.
JA
Ooh, ooh, villain arc!
Jo_cubstar
Oh, Dotty
Theluxland
Not just Dotty, I felt this in my CORE
Yumi
One time I was having thoughts along the line of, “I am being so Good. I am going to handle this situation in a way that makes it so easy for the other person. I’m going to be Good and practical and have feelings that convey their value to me but not in a way that imposes on them” and anyway, some of these thoughts were happening while I was in the process of getting denied coverage for a medication, and that was unrelated, but I started crying because of my thoughts, and the poor pharmacist felt so bad.
Jeremiah
Geez, sorry to hear that, hope you are doing better now.
Schpoonman
It’s interesting to me that she says it’s a theory she keeps wanting to test, like she hasn’t been testing it. She’s just not good at being bad, and that’s okay.
Schpoonman
Okay, what the hell is Walky eating? Based on the color I can only think mac’n’cheese but I cannot decipher it.
(Willis I swear I’m not taking aim at your art, I’m just deeply curious)
Needfuldoer
Scrambled eggs, maybe?
It’s a little early for tossed salad.
cbwroses
Not if Dorothy decides she’d rather be happy than good, it’s not. ?
Schpoonman
He’s a little Walky to be eating a salad, though.
Jamie
I was thinking pasta, tbh, but that seems semi-implausible.
Coatl
The detail is that since she is overthinking things, she has not realized that, something tells me that singing will not be enough to lighten all this.
Anon A Mouse
She needs to find the place where “Not Good” doesn’t mean “Bad”. Be happy with a C+ because you understand the effort, not the result.
DailyBrad
These two know one another very well. Of course, Dorothy’s evolving, as is Walky, so I imagine some of their knowledge of each other, and themselves, is going to have to evolve, too.
Coatl
It’s good to see this kind of empathy towards Dorothy.
I’m serious, I know there are many characters and everyone has their favorite, but I think that if there were a ranking of who has been judged too harshly, it seems that the girl would take first place.
Perhaps you have noticed it in many comments, it seems that she is the only character who is most severely reproached for her mistakes.
Isn’t the evolution of a character supposed to take time and these steps, even if they are slow, should they be taken into account?
And regarding the future of these two, I only hope that this interaction continues.
Dreaming is free
Vanessa
Great conversation, so good for both of them.
Rose by Any Other Name
… is it though?