A few years ago I found myself headbanging along to some NIN and thinking “Man, Trent was really on the mark with these lyrics,” and then I realized I had become a pizza cutter.
Needfuldoer
All edge, no point?
Don’t we all go through a pizza cutter phase at some point in our lives? No judgement here; sometimes a little teen angst music just hits the spot.
As a lifelong Atheist, I believe that a church is the people, not the building. Just like how your home should be your family, not the bricks and mortar (or whatever) house. 🙂
Allison Branford
The real religion is the friends and family we made along the way.
Anyone who thinks the building is The Church as much as or more than the people? They have ‘lost the plot’, as it were.
Buildings are replaceable. Nice to have, but not necessary. You can conduct service in a parishioner’s home, in a public building with reservable rooms/times, or outdoors.
Yeah even if I was religious I can’t imagine going to church. Just seems like a pain in the ass and if I wanna pray I dunno why I’d have to go to a place to do it. I know how to read.
Same reason people go to concerts instead of sitting at home listening to CDs; sometimes you want it to be an experience you share with others.
JBento
Oh man, let me tell you what Jesus said about going around sharing your prayers with others.
tbf
“Where two or three are gathered, I am there”?
There’s a difference between praying in public just so other people can see you, gathering somewhere private to pray in the company of a few fellow believers, and gathering with many nominal believers to lose yourself in a group experience. Personally, I’m in the camp of “God gave me this day off, I’m not getting up early to put on pants and deal with other people” but I understand why some people are.
JBento
“go into your room and close the door”, prayer isn’t a group activity.
Never really understood concerts, either. You just get a worse performance with worse audio and a worse atmosphere, and you pay a premium for the privilege.
Never again.
Liara
“worse atmosphere” Well here’s the reason you don’t understand it. People that enjoy concerts will tell you the atmosphere is so much better than sitting at home
Caf
Depends on the hardware you have at home.
Not dunking on people who like the concert experience, but we can get tooth-busting decibels at home now, and you don’t need to deal with sweaty, filthy, fart monsters like me jumping around in front of you.
Wizard
That, and some bands only seem to put on their best performance when they have an audience to react to. For instance, I was never more than a casual fan of Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, but those guys absolutely killed it live. Webb Wilder is also great live, and half the fun is listening to Webb going off on one of his cheerfully deranged rants. Some bands aren’t all that great live, but some bring an energy and intensity to live shows that even their best studio work just can’t match.
RoyanRannedos
Some people like to feel the music in their bones as opposed to hearing full fidelity through their headphones. I do the same sometimes with my speaker setup at home, usually when my wife isn’t around to get annoyed with my video game metal playlist.
Mark
Wow, never knew I had a twin.
LR
Some outdoor concerts can have very good sound. I saw (and heard) the Allman brothers at some venue in western Massachusetts. I don’t know if this is typical.
Here are my personal reasons as an agnostic congregationalist. Who comes from a fairly liberal and queer accepting church.
1. Potluck
2. Coffee Hour after church
3. Getting to meet up with my old friends and talk.
4. It’s fun singing familiar songs with people.
5. Helping out with a soup kitchen makes me feel good, but is a lot easier with a group of friends to help tone done the social anxiety.
6. It gets me out of the house on a Sunday.
Miri
As a fellow agnostic those all seem like great reasons for attending a warm accepting place where friends also attend and that doesn’t shame, condemn, belittle, deny or otherwise reduce people based on who they fundamentally happen to be.
I think Joyce thought her church offered her and Becky all of those things (because true Christians of the exact right flavour) until they went back after the first kidnapping attempt. Realising that was not the case really hurt her and her mother never saw or acknowledged that. Hank did…
And that was the first time I think Joyce questioned out loud to somebody who she trusted to maybe know the answer whether or not her mother could be considered a monster.
Mark
That sounds right.
But I think she also saw clearly for the first time the hypocrisy — that the God preached from the pulpit and in Sunday school, and the one the members claimed as the authority for their actions, were two very different people.
I wonder whether she might someday discover that she still believes in the former. She was a truer Christian than those around her, and still is.
thejeff
I don’t think so. She saw that what they were preaching drove what Ross did and what Carol said. Hypocrisy wasn’t the problem.
David
Well, apart from systemic hypocrisy. Today’s church is quite not what St Paul’s church was, and St Paul’s church never has been anywhere close to what Christ’s synagogue had been.
But yes, other than that hypocrisy had not been the problem and Joyce had little choice other than throwing out the muck water along with the swamp eels.
Praying can be done anywhere, and this is encouraged at several points in the Bible. Believers meet regularly to keep their belief aligned, so somebody doesn’t get funny ideas and run off the rails. Obviously it doesn’t always work, and now and then an entire congregation runs off the rails together. (See an example right here in DoA.) But it seems to work almost all the time.
thejeff
Entire denominations and organizations run off the rails regularly. We’ve had wars between different Christian sects over doctrine.
Joyce’s church is part of a large Christian movement, not a single congregation that’s gone astray.
It doesn’t work anywhere near all the time.
Proxiehunter
Considering the rails a lot of churches are on a lot of people would be in a lot better place if the individuals did go off the rails.
This is, oddly, an extremely Christian perspective. The idea that the whole of the religion is in this one book? Hell, it’s specifically a Protestant bit of bullshit.
No other religion, pre-Martin Luther, does that. Religion is social identity, first and foremost, not a textbook you read.
My wife’s church used to have a carved wooden sign that said “Meetingplace of the Mennonite Church” and I thought that was a rather elegant bit of ecclesiology in such a compact form.
Some years ago they got rid of that sign because a bunch of marketing students told them to get an electronic sign at great expense. Which is now broken. The company says replacement parts are not available so they asked me if I could repair it. (Answer = ‘yes, probably’)
Even though I am an atheist I miss the old wooden sign. I don’t believe in god but I do believe in communities.
Much like the building, the value of the sign is not in itself but in what it represents. I haven’t seen it, but you’ve given us the important part, and I like that sign already.
They’re a good congregation. Nary a bible thumper in the bunch, and they put a lot of resources into disaster relief; building houses, clearing roads, etc. Long history of sponsoring refugees. Modified their building to host a Head Start location. Recently they went through a difficult transformation to become GLBTQ+ friendly. Lost a few members, gained more. And they’ve never given me any grief over being an atheist.
Getting Linda levels of “I’m your mother and can will my reality over your actual literal life at a moment’s notice” from Carol here. Just need a weaponized “I love you,” and it’ll be complete.
She’s also clearly decided “I would kill you and your friends for the church” so her professing “I would die for you” seems like something she just says because it makes her feel righteous.
Regalli
I believe she does love Joyce. It’s a conditional love, that cares more deeply about the state of Joyce’s soul (to Carol’s specific beliefs about what’s best for said soul) than her wellbeing on this earth, and it’s the kind of love that would therefore allow her to justify kidnapping Joyce at gunpoint in the name of saving her from herself, but it is a form of (incredibly fucked-up and unhealthy for Joyce) love. That’s the realization Joyce had when she heard that.
It does also make her feel righteous, though.
ischemgeek
I believe Carol believes she loves Joyce – but to me, love is an action verb, not a feeling. Carol doesn’t act with love.
Conditional love isn’t love, it’s manipulation and emotional abuse.
Furie
*points*
Ding ding!
ischemgeek
Having a parent who weaponizes “I would die for you” myself, the thing you need to understand is that it’s not sincere. All it is, is a guilt trip.
Think like how macho bluster works: the one who most dramatically declares their machismo is usually the most insecure about it and phony. Same thing here. People who actually love someone enough to die for them don’t feel the need to go on about it like that. Or use it as a weapon in an argument.
Furie
I would did for you is such a Bon Jovi level of 80s bullshittery. Great, now you’re dead and what exactly did that achieve? How about you drop the dramatics and live well for the people you profess to love? Bring in the mail, wrap them in a blanket when they’re cold, make a drink just because, take care of some of the little niggles in their life that make living harder for them and, if you’re a parent, raise your child to be prepared to live and thrive in this world. This is what I want from the world, even if it does make for less catchy songs.
Furie
Die not did…
Booster97
“I would die for you” and “I would kill you for the church” aren’t mutually exclusive though.
She may be a fanatic but if Joyce’s life was in danger for something not church related, she actually could put her life on the line to save her daughter.
Having fucked up religious beliefs doesn’t preclude people from also having a *few* not-horrible qualities.
Eh, she’s in this arc too, give her time to remind us she can compete. At some point she’s going to start pressuring Walky to start prepping for med school and we already know she’s a financial abuser. There’s PLENTY of room for that to get coercive and awful.
(That said, I do agree in that I don’t see Linda as likely to threaten Walky’s life ACTIVELY in quite the same way I worry about Carol “talked about how they should get a gun the WEEKEND AFTER Kidnapping 1” Brown with Joyce and Jocelyne. But I still give it a fairly low odds overall.)
GholaHalleck
She’s still got to try and talk Walky out of being in a relationship with a browner person then he is. Linda’s go nowhere to go but deeper!
Regalli
Yeah, that’s probably going to be the first disaster of this visit on the Walky arc’s side.
I’d like to think maybe she won’t go there, maybe she won’t be the worst, but I know in my heart she will.
Linda was left speechless the last time she saw Carol. Ironically, it was when she saw Carol use optics (of all things) as a cudgel in an argument with Hank.
By going “the church is more important than anyone” as a response to “our church’s action directly led to the death of my friend”?
True Survivor
Ohhhh. I thought you meant that Carol doesn’t care about Joyce. Thanks for clarifying.
Alongcameaspider
I mean its not far off, she said the church is more important then anyone, anyone includes Joyce
jmsr7
Exactly. When it comes right down to it, fundamentalists of all stripes are entirely self-centered. It’s all about self-preservation. They believe in an all-powerful being that is threatening them, and they’ll do anything to save themselves, up to and including disposing of everyone they ever cared about and every principle they ever held. And this being is ok with that attitude because He is evil.
And because this being is capable of mind-reading, they’re desperate to not let themselves even consider that this being isn’t good, since He might take offense to that and start abusing them too. It’s an extraordinarily desperate and fucked up situation they’re in, and one of the reasons it’s so hard to rescue them. They have to give themselves permission to actually evaluate their deity, and that is the one thing above all they’re not allowed to do – heck they even made faith into a virtue, which it is not. God hates critics.
eh, whatever
Very, very well said.
Mark
One thing I will disagree with: redeeming your promises is a virtue. That’s what “faith” actually means. Overloading it to mean “mindless acceptance” is one of the great social crimes of all time and is a gateway to other crimes. This latter meaning is actually deprecated in the Bible: “test the spirits that come to you.”
deliverything
1 John 4:1: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” I like that one better than Matthew 4:7: “Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'” (also backed up by Deuteronomy 6:16).
So… we’re to test every spirit but God, but we’ve got to test the spirit to know if they’re God. Well, fortunately, 1 John 4:2 gives an easy way to check: “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God”… except that there are many religion abusers who preach the “mindless acceptance” definition of “faith” yet would easily pass that test.
The world would be a better place if your version of Christianity were the only one, Mark, but unfortunately it isn’t.
Nono
Joyce also agreed that everyone in the church was an asshole. So that includes Carol.
Which is true, but boy, that’s just gonna heat things up.
297 thoughts on “Raised”
Ana Chronistic
Joyce: *hands Carol this card*
Ana Chronistic
also Joyce: *shouts*
Schpoonman
A few years ago I found myself headbanging along to some NIN and thinking “Man, Trent was really on the mark with these lyrics,” and then I realized I had become a pizza cutter.
Needfuldoer
All edge, no point?
Don’t we all go through a pizza cutter phase at some point in our lives? No judgement here; sometimes a little teen angst music just hits the spot.
DailyBrad
Agnostic here, but yeah, church should be the people, not the building.
Rose by Any Other Name
Or even personal faith and not a building full of terrible people.
Yet_One_More_Idiot
As a lifelong Atheist, I believe that a church is the people, not the building. Just like how your home should be your family, not the bricks and mortar (or whatever) house. 🙂
Allison Branford
The real religion is the friends and family we made along the way.
Kaiyalai
Anyone who thinks the building is The Church as much as or more than the people? They have ‘lost the plot’, as it were.
Buildings are replaceable. Nice to have, but not necessary. You can conduct service in a parishioner’s home, in a public building with reservable rooms/times, or outdoors.
Ana Chronistic
If your church was only established in [year the building was built], then maybe consider something more personal
Taffy
Asgard’s not a place, it’s a people.
Yotomoe
Yeah even if I was religious I can’t imagine going to church. Just seems like a pain in the ass and if I wanna pray I dunno why I’d have to go to a place to do it. I know how to read.
tbf
Same reason people go to concerts instead of sitting at home listening to CDs; sometimes you want it to be an experience you share with others.
JBento
Oh man, let me tell you what Jesus said about going around sharing your prayers with others.
tbf
“Where two or three are gathered, I am there”?
There’s a difference between praying in public just so other people can see you, gathering somewhere private to pray in the company of a few fellow believers, and gathering with many nominal believers to lose yourself in a group experience. Personally, I’m in the camp of “God gave me this day off, I’m not getting up early to put on pants and deal with other people” but I understand why some people are.
JBento
“go into your room and close the door”, prayer isn’t a group activity.
tbf
The context makes it clear that being seen praying is itself not a bad thing, but praying in order to be seen praying (i.e. seeking community recognition for having done so) is a bad thing.
Azhrei Vep
Never really understood concerts, either. You just get a worse performance with worse audio and a worse atmosphere, and you pay a premium for the privilege.
Never again.
Liara
“worse atmosphere” Well here’s the reason you don’t understand it. People that enjoy concerts will tell you the atmosphere is so much better than sitting at home
Caf
Depends on the hardware you have at home.
Not dunking on people who like the concert experience, but we can get tooth-busting decibels at home now, and you don’t need to deal with sweaty, filthy, fart monsters like me jumping around in front of you.
Wizard
That, and some bands only seem to put on their best performance when they have an audience to react to. For instance, I was never more than a casual fan of Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, but those guys absolutely killed it live. Webb Wilder is also great live, and half the fun is listening to Webb going off on one of his cheerfully deranged rants. Some bands aren’t all that great live, but some bring an energy and intensity to live shows that even their best studio work just can’t match.
RoyanRannedos
Some people like to feel the music in their bones as opposed to hearing full fidelity through their headphones. I do the same sometimes with my speaker setup at home, usually when my wife isn’t around to get annoyed with my video game metal playlist.
Mark
Wow, never knew I had a twin.
LR
Some outdoor concerts can have very good sound. I saw (and heard) the Allman brothers at some venue in western Massachusetts. I don’t know if this is typical.
Elle L
Here are my personal reasons as an agnostic congregationalist. Who comes from a fairly liberal and queer accepting church.
1. Potluck
2. Coffee Hour after church
3. Getting to meet up with my old friends and talk.
4. It’s fun singing familiar songs with people.
5. Helping out with a soup kitchen makes me feel good, but is a lot easier with a group of friends to help tone done the social anxiety.
6. It gets me out of the house on a Sunday.
Miri
As a fellow agnostic those all seem like great reasons for attending a warm accepting place where friends also attend and that doesn’t shame, condemn, belittle, deny or otherwise reduce people based on who they fundamentally happen to be.
I think Joyce thought her church offered her and Becky all of those things (because true Christians of the exact right flavour) until they went back after the first kidnapping attempt. Realising that was not the case really hurt her and her mother never saw or acknowledged that. Hank did…
And that was the first time I think Joyce questioned out loud to somebody who she trusted to maybe know the answer whether or not her mother could be considered a monster.
Mark
That sounds right.
But I think she also saw clearly for the first time the hypocrisy — that the God preached from the pulpit and in Sunday school, and the one the members claimed as the authority for their actions, were two very different people.
I wonder whether she might someday discover that she still believes in the former. She was a truer Christian than those around her, and still is.
thejeff
I don’t think so. She saw that what they were preaching drove what Ross did and what Carol said. Hypocrisy wasn’t the problem.
David
Well, apart from systemic hypocrisy. Today’s church is quite not what St Paul’s church was, and St Paul’s church never has been anywhere close to what Christ’s synagogue had been.
But yes, other than that hypocrisy had not been the problem and Joyce had little choice other than throwing out the muck water along with the swamp eels.
Twitcher
I always saw Joyce as the quintessential Christian. Maybe she can be the quintessential Humanist?
Mark
Praying can be done anywhere, and this is encouraged at several points in the Bible. Believers meet regularly to keep their belief aligned, so somebody doesn’t get funny ideas and run off the rails. Obviously it doesn’t always work, and now and then an entire congregation runs off the rails together. (See an example right here in DoA.) But it seems to work almost all the time.
thejeff
Entire denominations and organizations run off the rails regularly. We’ve had wars between different Christian sects over doctrine.
Joyce’s church is part of a large Christian movement, not a single congregation that’s gone astray.
It doesn’t work anywhere near all the time.
Proxiehunter
Considering the rails a lot of churches are on a lot of people would be in a lot better place if the individuals did go off the rails.
Jamie
This is, oddly, an extremely Christian perspective. The idea that the whole of the religion is in this one book? Hell, it’s specifically a Protestant bit of bullshit.
No other religion, pre-Martin Luther, does that. Religion is social identity, first and foremost, not a textbook you read.
Tan
I dunno Carol, sounds like idolatry to me, but what do I know.
Amós Batista
It is. At least, she’s putting church above God.
vulcanodon
My wife’s church used to have a carved wooden sign that said “Meetingplace of the Mennonite Church” and I thought that was a rather elegant bit of ecclesiology in such a compact form.
Some years ago they got rid of that sign because a bunch of marketing students told them to get an electronic sign at great expense. Which is now broken. The company says replacement parts are not available so they asked me if I could repair it. (Answer = ‘yes, probably’)
Even though I am an atheist I miss the old wooden sign. I don’t believe in god but I do believe in communities.
Mark
Much like the building, the value of the sign is not in itself but in what it represents. I haven’t seen it, but you’ve given us the important part, and I like that sign already.
vulcanodon
They’re a good congregation. Nary a bible thumper in the bunch, and they put a lot of resources into disaster relief; building houses, clearing roads, etc. Long history of sponsoring refugees. Modified their building to host a Head Start location. Recently they went through a difficult transformation to become GLBTQ+ friendly. Lost a few members, gained more. And they’ve never given me any grief over being an atheist.
vulcanodon
Hey, I found a picture!
Schpoonman
Getting Linda levels of “I’m your mother and can will my reality over your actual literal life at a moment’s notice” from Carol here. Just need a weaponized “I love you,” and it’ll be complete.
Regalli
Remember “I would die for you, Joyce”?
I do not give her long for that last one.
JR
She’s also clearly decided “I would kill you and your friends for the church” so her professing “I would die for you” seems like something she just says because it makes her feel righteous.
Regalli
I believe she does love Joyce. It’s a conditional love, that cares more deeply about the state of Joyce’s soul (to Carol’s specific beliefs about what’s best for said soul) than her wellbeing on this earth, and it’s the kind of love that would therefore allow her to justify kidnapping Joyce at gunpoint in the name of saving her from herself, but it is a form of (incredibly fucked-up and unhealthy for Joyce) love. That’s the realization Joyce had when she heard that.
It does also make her feel righteous, though.
ischemgeek
I believe Carol believes she loves Joyce – but to me, love is an action verb, not a feeling. Carol doesn’t act with love.
Conditional love isn’t love, it’s manipulation and emotional abuse.
Furie
*points*
Ding ding!
ischemgeek
Having a parent who weaponizes “I would die for you” myself, the thing you need to understand is that it’s not sincere. All it is, is a guilt trip.
Think like how macho bluster works: the one who most dramatically declares their machismo is usually the most insecure about it and phony. Same thing here. People who actually love someone enough to die for them don’t feel the need to go on about it like that. Or use it as a weapon in an argument.
Furie
I would did for you is such a Bon Jovi level of 80s bullshittery. Great, now you’re dead and what exactly did that achieve? How about you drop the dramatics and live well for the people you profess to love? Bring in the mail, wrap them in a blanket when they’re cold, make a drink just because, take care of some of the little niggles in their life that make living harder for them and, if you’re a parent, raise your child to be prepared to live and thrive in this world. This is what I want from the world, even if it does make for less catchy songs.
Furie
Die not did…
Booster97
“I would die for you” and “I would kill you for the church” aren’t mutually exclusive though.
She may be a fanatic but if Joyce’s life was in danger for something not church related, she actually could put her life on the line to save her daughter.
Having fucked up religious beliefs doesn’t preclude people from also having a *few* not-horrible qualities.
newlland(Henryvolt)
As bad as she is Linda is still not on Carol’s level.
Regalli
Eh, she’s in this arc too, give her time to remind us she can compete. At some point she’s going to start pressuring Walky to start prepping for med school and we already know she’s a financial abuser. There’s PLENTY of room for that to get coercive and awful.
(That said, I do agree in that I don’t see Linda as likely to threaten Walky’s life ACTIVELY in quite the same way I worry about Carol “talked about how they should get a gun the WEEKEND AFTER Kidnapping 1” Brown with Joyce and Jocelyne. But I still give it a fairly low odds overall.)
GholaHalleck
She’s still got to try and talk Walky out of being in a relationship with a browner person then he is. Linda’s go nowhere to go but deeper!
Regalli
Yeah, that’s probably going to be the first disaster of this visit on the Walky arc’s side.
I’d like to think maybe she won’t go there, maybe she won’t be the worst, but I know in my heart she will.
NGPZ
Not to mention a non-zero chance of this universe’s Shinigami buying in wholesale. ?
Schpoonman
Linda’s racism (and the system into which it plays) is just as deadly as Carol funding Ross’s bail.
Needfuldoer
Linda was left speechless the last time she saw Carol. Ironically, it was when she saw Carol use optics (of all things) as a cudgel in an argument with Hank.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/public/
V
Oh, Joyce, you’re really in it now.
Needfuldoer
She’s spent the entire run of the comic getting out of it.
David
The way this is going, we are heading towards the next kidnapping and an exorcism.
Bryy
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand there we go.
Finally, Carol admits that she doesn’t care.
True Survivor
How so?
Bryy
By going “the church is more important than anyone” as a response to “our church’s action directly led to the death of my friend”?
True Survivor
Ohhhh. I thought you meant that Carol doesn’t care about Joyce. Thanks for clarifying.
Alongcameaspider
I mean its not far off, she said the church is more important then anyone, anyone includes Joyce
jmsr7
Exactly. When it comes right down to it, fundamentalists of all stripes are entirely self-centered. It’s all about self-preservation. They believe in an all-powerful being that is threatening them, and they’ll do anything to save themselves, up to and including disposing of everyone they ever cared about and every principle they ever held. And this being is ok with that attitude because He is evil.
And because this being is capable of mind-reading, they’re desperate to not let themselves even consider that this being isn’t good, since He might take offense to that and start abusing them too. It’s an extraordinarily desperate and fucked up situation they’re in, and one of the reasons it’s so hard to rescue them. They have to give themselves permission to actually evaluate their deity, and that is the one thing above all they’re not allowed to do – heck they even made faith into a virtue, which it is not. God hates critics.
eh, whatever
Very, very well said.
Mark
One thing I will disagree with: redeeming your promises is a virtue. That’s what “faith” actually means. Overloading it to mean “mindless acceptance” is one of the great social crimes of all time and is a gateway to other crimes. This latter meaning is actually deprecated in the Bible: “test the spirits that come to you.”
deliverything
1 John 4:1: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” I like that one better than Matthew 4:7: “Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'” (also backed up by Deuteronomy 6:16).
So… we’re to test every spirit but God, but we’ve got to test the spirit to know if they’re God. Well, fortunately, 1 John 4:2 gives an easy way to check: “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God”… except that there are many religion abusers who preach the “mindless acceptance” definition of “faith” yet would easily pass that test.
The world would be a better place if your version of Christianity were the only one, Mark, but unfortunately it isn’t.
Nono
Joyce also agreed that everyone in the church was an asshole. So that includes Carol.
Which is true, but boy, that’s just gonna heat things up.
Zero
That’s what she said.
Laura
Break my heart…
DarkoNeko