It’s not a particularly biting satire of fascism, though. I don’t get why people in this comic still treat Mary as kind of cringe/annoying now that she’s *literally a nazi*. We are well past “You look weird lmao owned” and it kind of undercuts everyone’s commitment to fighting fascism that they don’t do anything about the fascist next door.
You don’t need to, like, kill Mary, but I do think you’re morally obligated to rough her up a little at this point.
Like, you can either treat the encroaching specter of fascism and genocide as a serious issue deserving serious emotional speeches as characters make dramatic choices to sacrifice for the right thing as the police stand literally shoulder-to-shoulder with nazis, or you can do the Blazing Saddles route and have Carla set up a fake TSA booth and trick Mary into missing the counter-protests entirely through wacky cartoonish gags where she ends up an extra in a Tony-winning production of Rent or whatever, but I don’t know if you can really be doing both of those things in the same panel.
It’s like the opposite of the drama tag from the Walkyverse.
That’s the awful irony of the situation, though, isn’t it.
Fighting fascism inherently means that you need to defend your neighbor’s right to be a fascist. At least in theory.
Kyulen
Nah, you really don’t need to defend anyone’s “right” to be a fascist. At all.
they think politics is all about “”opinions”” regardless of what the devastating consequences of those “”opinions”” put into practice, as though the democratic process just somehow automatically evens it all out eventually even with overly influential, powerful people constantly pouring in bad ideas
as a result, they’re gonna be nothing more than right-wing cannon fodder 9-9
Ed Callahan
As a retired journalist, I still accept the right of people to say pretty much what they believe. It’s what they try to do. I can draw a line on that, up to and including flat-out war.
ESM
Y’know, I get that the government shouldn’t be locking people up for speech even if I don’t like that speech etc etc etc. but you don’t actually need to defend Mary Elizabeth Hitler’s right to call for genocide.
Groove
To defend tolerance you have to be intolerant of facism, because the goals of facism include removing tolerance. The idea that you have to defend someone’s right to be intolerant is inherently flawed.
Regret
That’s the paradox of tolerance, and it can only be resolved by being intolerant of intolerance. I don’t remember who, but someone had a good perspective on the paradox of tolerance. Let me paraphrase: Tolerance is a social contract, those that do not abide by the terms of the contract are not protected by it.
ESM
Mary’s not even expressing a political opinion here. She’s endorsing genocide out of pure shitposting spite. Which I suppose does make this the first time she’s actually acted like the college Republican she’s supposed to be, but…say what you want about the tenets of national socialism, but at least it’s an ethos. Mary’s just a cancerous void on society.
PedanticJerkass
Quite a few people voted for Trump in 2016, 2020, and 2024 out of pure shitposting spite, not because they actually liked Trump or thought he would be a good President. In fact, a lot of them knew he was a terrible pissbaby and that he was almost assuredly going to fuck up everything, which is precisely why they voted for him. To watch the world burn. For teh lulz.
I don’t see Mary as a regular 4chan denizen, though, so I don’t know what her excuse is.
Amara
“Sure, everyone’s life is going to get worse. But this one specific person I hate’s life will get more worse and faster, so I can live with it.”
That’s philosopher Karl Popper, who codified it in his book The Open Society and Its Enemies in 1945. In there, he wrote:
“The so-called paradox of freedom is the argument that freedom in the sense of absence of any constraining control must lead to very great restraint, since it makes the bully free to enslave the meek. The idea is, in a slightly different form, and with very different tendency, clearly expressed in Plato.
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.”
No, in fact we can see it works the other way around. In my country you’d go to prison for hate speech if you said like half of things Donald Trump has said in public, until 2001. It wasn’t any laws that changed, the cops just stopped arresting fascists. Then in 21 years the fascist party went from nobody who anyone wanted to touch, to getting anti-Muslim propaganda published in respected newspapers, to gaining parliament seats, to running the government.
Cunobaros
I read this comment thinking “That’s exactly what happened in Sweden”, before noticing the very Swedish-looking name of the poster.
Proxiehunter
Of course the cops aren’t arresting fascists. Cops hate arresting other cops.
SillyGoose
I’ll join the choir of “no, paradox of tolerance applies” 🙂
PedanticJerkass
I know it’s already been mentioned a few times in other replies, but since it was also my first thought on seeing your comment, here, have a Wikipedia link. Or, if you prefer, a RationalWiki link.
I reckon next to bread-tube, RationalWiki is about one of the closest things we can get in the English-speaking internet landscape to an alt-left pipeline :3
Steamweed
Not at all. The social contract says you support free speech because you support the society. Fascists want to destroy the society. They declaim they are enemies of it, and want no part of it.
thejeff
I basically agree, but it’s hard to construct a good argument. Communists also often declaim they want to destroy society, often more openly than fascists who lie about wanting to return it to former glory.
The Tolerance Paradox is calling,
and wants to know your location.
But seriously, giving people the right
to say that certain people (skin color, religion, sexuality, etc.)
don’t deserve rights or deserve to live then
infringes on those people’s rights to live safely.
We absolutely do limit people’s freedom and speech
when it interferes with the safety of others
(can’t yell fire in a theatre, your right to swing
your fists stops at my nose).
The only reason we allow Nazis free speech
is because it ultimately supports the system
in power that is based on white supremacy/capitalism.
You ever notice when the Occupy Wallstreet and BLM
and of course the current Palestine protests started,
suddenly we don’t have free speech and every protester
is a rioter or looter or a paid actor?
But the Nazis/KKK events are protected by police? ?
Dan
Says nobody who reads the last article of the Universal Declaration.
I am curious if the comic is going to address Carla’s situation in all this. IIRC her family business has defence contracts for the very weapons people are protesting. I feel like there would be people making noise about that. But I don’t know exactly how “evil” the company is considered in-universe.
Charles Phipps
It’s kind of an odd situation where we absolutely need to condemn the Military Industrial Complex for sending bombs to Gaza/Bulmeria because they’re used for genocide.
And we absolutely need to be sending more to Ukraine to protect people from genocide and invasion.
It makes me wonder if Carla’s parents have an opinion there.
Nymph
The comic has already begun to address this. We saw a strip like a week or two ago where Mary pointed this exact thing out. Hopefully we’ll see some fruit from that planted seed.
I think there was a bit early on where Carla said that she refused to make her revenge on Mary anything other than childish pranks, because she wanted Mary to know that she was not being taken seriously.
Fascists can handle being told “You’re evil and need to be stopped” much better than being told “You’re ridiculous and everyone’s laughing at you”. (Although if you have the power to actually stop them you should do that.) Consider that time the left started calling the Trump coterie “weird”, a tactic that proved so unexpectedly effective that the Democrats decided it wasn’t fair and they should stop doing it in case they actually won the election or something.
Could someone help me out? Which strip(a) showed us that Mary is literally a Nazi? I do miss some strips now and then (life gets hectic), so I’d just like to get caught up.
Yup, touch averse autistic here as well who dreaded being hugged and often still do, because my whole family is a bunch of emotional huggers who can really sustain those things. What I figured out was I am less uncomfortable if I initiate the hug, it makes them feel better, and if I make it more like a bro hug with a lot of back thumping it’s funnier and lasts less time.
270 thoughts on “Really sucks”
NGPZ
“MY FACE IS A BUTT”
LMAO I’M DEAD XD
Carla's Revenge -- Mission Status: COMPLETED!*plays “Cologne” by Trans Am on hacked muzak*
Yumi
Startling a laugh put of me in the middle of all this
ZombieKyrik
I didn’t notice that until I read your comment. Brilliantly played Carla/Willis; you’ve done justice for the world.
SillyGoose
I’ll admit I was getting tired of looking at a miserable Dotty, but ‘my face is a butt’ saves the whole storyline. It is high-grade humor.
DJTsurugi
once again, Carla saves the day! and the storyline. ~<3
Cass
I’m assuming Charlie’s the one who managed the swap without Mary noticing, letting her steal the position of Best Girlfriend Ever
Steamweed
A quality team. May their reign of mischief last long!
Dara
YEAH
FUCK YEAH CHARLIE AND/OR CARLA
_truly_ quality work.
Quinn
Glad she got the last laugh. I wonder how she pulled it off. Did she recruit Dina?
ESM
It’s not a particularly biting satire of fascism, though. I don’t get why people in this comic still treat Mary as kind of cringe/annoying now that she’s *literally a nazi*. We are well past “You look weird lmao owned” and it kind of undercuts everyone’s commitment to fighting fascism that they don’t do anything about the fascist next door.
You don’t need to, like, kill Mary, but I do think you’re morally obligated to rough her up a little at this point.
NGPZ
if it’s any consolation, at the very least Dina later on is gonna RIP HER TO SHREDS
Opus the Poet
Remember the flowchart for punching NAZIs.
NGPZ
but yeah, you’re right
ESM
Like, you can either treat the encroaching specter of fascism and genocide as a serious issue deserving serious emotional speeches as characters make dramatic choices to sacrifice for the right thing as the police stand literally shoulder-to-shoulder with nazis, or you can do the Blazing Saddles route and have Carla set up a fake TSA booth and trick Mary into missing the counter-protests entirely through wacky cartoonish gags where she ends up an extra in a Tony-winning production of Rent or whatever, but I don’t know if you can really be doing both of those things in the same panel.
It’s like the opposite of the drama tag from the Walkyverse.
NGPZ
we haven’t even seen the next strip yet,
mark my words, at the very least Mary is gonna get fucking TRAMPLED D:<
Bryy
I’m happy Mary is getting arrested.
PedanticJerkass
Mary, to the cops: “But but… I’m on your side here!”
Cops, to Mary: “Tell it to the judge, buttface.”
Aquila
That’s the awful irony of the situation, though, isn’t it.
Fighting fascism inherently means that you need to defend your neighbor’s right to be a fascist. At least in theory.
Kyulen
Nah, you really don’t need to defend anyone’s “right” to be a fascist. At all.
NGPZ
yeah that whole notion is white moderate bullcrap
they think politics is all about “”opinions”” regardless of what the devastating consequences of those “”opinions”” put into practice, as though the democratic process just somehow automatically evens it all out eventually even with overly influential, powerful people constantly pouring in bad ideas
as a result, they’re gonna be nothing more than right-wing cannon fodder 9-9
Ed Callahan
As a retired journalist, I still accept the right of people to say pretty much what they believe. It’s what they try to do. I can draw a line on that, up to and including flat-out war.
ESM
Y’know, I get that the government shouldn’t be locking people up for speech even if I don’t like that speech etc etc etc. but you don’t actually need to defend Mary Elizabeth Hitler’s right to call for genocide.
Groove
To defend tolerance you have to be intolerant of facism, because the goals of facism include removing tolerance. The idea that you have to defend someone’s right to be intolerant is inherently flawed.
Regret
That’s the paradox of tolerance, and it can only be resolved by being intolerant of intolerance. I don’t remember who, but someone had a good perspective on the paradox of tolerance. Let me paraphrase: Tolerance is a social contract, those that do not abide by the terms of the contract are not protected by it.
ESM
Mary’s not even expressing a political opinion here. She’s endorsing genocide out of pure shitposting spite. Which I suppose does make this the first time she’s actually acted like the college Republican she’s supposed to be, but…say what you want about the tenets of national socialism, but at least it’s an ethos. Mary’s just a cancerous void on society.
PedanticJerkass
Quite a few people voted for Trump in 2016, 2020, and 2024 out of pure shitposting spite, not because they actually liked Trump or thought he would be a good President. In fact, a lot of them knew he was a terrible pissbaby and that he was almost assuredly going to fuck up everything, which is precisely why they voted for him. To watch the world burn. For teh lulz.
I don’t see Mary as a regular 4chan denizen, though, so I don’t know what her excuse is.
Amara
“Sure, everyone’s life is going to get worse. But this one specific person I hate’s life will get more worse and faster, so I can live with it.”
Jen D
That’s philosopher Karl Popper, who codified it in his book The Open Society and Its Enemies in 1945. In there, he wrote:
rando
Karl Popper (now in comic version!) https://skepchick.org/2017/08/popper-and-the-paradox-of-tolerance/
Bryy
No.
That is a load of bullshit that the America education system tells you.
Taffy
The only right a fascist has is to die. Everything else is stolen privilege taken by force.
Charles Phipps
It turns out that if you outlaw hate speech, as other countries show, it doesn’t magically make you hateful.
Amelie Wikström
No, in fact we can see it works the other way around. In my country you’d go to prison for hate speech if you said like half of things Donald Trump has said in public, until 2001. It wasn’t any laws that changed, the cops just stopped arresting fascists. Then in 21 years the fascist party went from nobody who anyone wanted to touch, to getting anti-Muslim propaganda published in respected newspapers, to gaining parliament seats, to running the government.
Cunobaros
I read this comment thinking “That’s exactly what happened in Sweden”, before noticing the very Swedish-looking name of the poster.
Proxiehunter
Of course the cops aren’t arresting fascists. Cops hate arresting other cops.
SillyGoose
I’ll join the choir of “no, paradox of tolerance applies” 🙂
PedanticJerkass
I know it’s already been mentioned a few times in other replies, but since it was also my first thought on seeing your comment, here, have a Wikipedia link. Or, if you prefer, a RationalWiki link.
Charles Phipps
So many jokes about tolerance and RationalWiki.
NGPZ
I reckon next to bread-tube, RationalWiki is about one of the closest things we can get in the English-speaking internet landscape to an alt-left pipeline :3
Steamweed
Not at all. The social contract says you support free speech because you support the society. Fascists want to destroy the society. They declaim they are enemies of it, and want no part of it.
thejeff
I basically agree, but it’s hard to construct a good argument. Communists also often declaim they want to destroy society, often more openly than fascists who lie about wanting to return it to former glory.
Jade
The Tolerance Paradox is calling,
and wants to know your location.
But seriously, giving people the right
to say that certain people (skin color, religion, sexuality, etc.)
don’t deserve rights or deserve to live then
infringes on those people’s rights to live safely.
We absolutely do limit people’s freedom and speech
when it interferes with the safety of others
(can’t yell fire in a theatre, your right to swing
your fists stops at my nose).
The only reason we allow Nazis free speech
is because it ultimately supports the system
in power that is based on white supremacy/capitalism.
You ever notice when the Occupy Wallstreet and BLM
and of course the current Palestine protests started,
suddenly we don’t have free speech and every protester
is a rioter or looter or a paid actor?
But the Nazis/KKK events are protected by police? ?
Dan
Says nobody who reads the last article of the Universal Declaration.
LiamKav
I am curious if the comic is going to address Carla’s situation in all this. IIRC her family business has defence contracts for the very weapons people are protesting. I feel like there would be people making noise about that. But I don’t know exactly how “evil” the company is considered in-universe.
Charles Phipps
It’s kind of an odd situation where we absolutely need to condemn the Military Industrial Complex for sending bombs to Gaza/Bulmeria because they’re used for genocide.
And we absolutely need to be sending more to Ukraine to protect people from genocide and invasion.
It makes me wonder if Carla’s parents have an opinion there.
Nymph
The comic has already begun to address this. We saw a strip like a week or two ago where Mary pointed this exact thing out. Hopefully we’ll see some fruit from that planted seed.
Daibhid C
I think there was a bit early on where Carla said that she refused to make her revenge on Mary anything other than childish pranks, because she wanted Mary to know that she was not being taken seriously.
Fascists can handle being told “You’re evil and need to be stopped” much better than being told “You’re ridiculous and everyone’s laughing at you”. (Although if you have the power to actually stop them you should do that.) Consider that time the left started calling the Trump coterie “weird”, a tactic that proved so unexpectedly effective that the Democrats decided it wasn’t fair and they should stop doing it in case they actually won the election or something.
Sarah Lea
Could someone help me out? Which strip(a) showed us that Mary is literally a Nazi? I do miss some strips now and then (life gets hectic), so I’d just like to get caught up.
Animedingo
As littlekuriboh would say
JUST FUCK ALREADY
ZombieKyrik
When reading it I even heard it in Tristan’s voice.
shadowcell
a butt that hovers above you, constantly pooping at all times
CandidCanid
Everything You’ve Ever Wanted Poops Above
Purple Floof
The Asshole of Damocles
Reaver
“My face is a butt”
Lmao Prank’d
Clif
The best.
CandidCanid
Those hands are superglued together btw.
cain
Another classic from Carla.
Nono
Hello Mary.
I do not trust your appearance.
Vaishino
I mean she has a face like a butt, that’s only natural
Bryy
Her being frame with the cops is surely not a coincidence.
Sirksome
So close to becoming a true menace.
Pocky
embrace the menace inside you
StClair
what if there are two menaces inside you?
Ray Radlein
One of them is real but the other one is a phantom
StClair
brilliant. someone get Filoni and/or Favreau on the phone.
Shadowsnail
Embrace the first one now, and let the other one lead you in the summer.
ESM
I mean, at this point she’s a full-on Nazi.
Kyulen
I’m pretty sure Sirksome was talking about Dorothy, not Mary.
ZombieKyrik
Dorothy needs a hug; although with how things are going lately, most of them need a hug.
Question: Are you a hugging type of person, or not?
Yumi
Touch-averse autistic here who was like ten years old by the time I realized that someone hugging me when I was upset was meant to comfort *me.*
Nadamás
I am only comfortable with hugging people i am close with are basically just my immediate family.
zepangolynn
Yup, touch averse autistic here as well who dreaded being hugged and often still do, because my whole family is a bunch of emotional huggers who can really sustain those things. What I figured out was I am less uncomfortable if I initiate the hug, it makes them feel better, and if I make it more like a bro hug with a lot of back thumping it’s funnier and lasts less time.
NGPZ
sometimes? but of course consent comes first, always