189

Respecting
Posted on January 4, 2018 by David M Willis

189 thoughts on “Respecting”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    Never the bridesmaid, never the bride ?

    1. Plasma Mongoose

      I was planning to post that exact quote before I saw you beat me to it.

      1. Mr D

        Trying to beat Ana to posting anything is an exercise in futility. She’s already read your comment in a future timeline and gone back to post it before you.

        1. Ana Chronistic

          You can totes do it through Sunday, tho
          #MAGFest

    2. Rowen Morland

      That could do with being paired with a fitting image and t-shirtified.

  2. Doctor_Who

    She’ll probably just be demoted to Flower Girl.

    1. Yumi

      According to my seven year old self, Flower Girl was basically the highest honor one could have. It’d be a promotion.

    2. Reltzik

      She wants NOTHING to do with weddings. Make her flower girl and she’ll just backpetal out of there.

      1. Leorale

        Flower puns? This’tle be fun.

        1. merbrat

          Rose to the bait!

        2. Fire_daws

          I get the feeling that Joe and Sarah nettles each other.

        3. Reltzik

          It’s from before Joe turned over a new leaf.

        4. adjudicus

          Hopefully New Joe will eventually grow on her. Perhaps this could plant the seed for a friendship

        5. Lunias

          Yeah but first Joe has to nip Sarah’s plans in the bud.

        6. King Daniel

          One hopes that he’ll have the stamena to do so.

        7. JustCheetoDust

          Sure, after they squash that beef.

        8. N0083rp00F

          It is a thorny issue but there not mulch either can do.

        9. Reltzik

          Lots of people are getting involved in these flower puns, despite the stigma they have.

        10. Makkabee

          Sara’s wound too tight. She really needs to learn to just go with the phloem.

        11. leadsynth

          Joe’s just trying to stick up for his bud… but I’m rooting for Joyce and Jakes to date. I’m really pollen’ for them!

        12. Spleenblaster

          It all stems from not being in the correct zone to start with. You’d be better off just staying in bed.

  3. Speedball

    Jesus, when Joe is shaming you for your ethics you got problems.

    1. Rosicrucian

      Joe’s actually got a pretty good grasp of relationship ethics?

      1. Proto

        Yeah just because he chooses to only participate in one night stands doesn’t mean he doesn’t understand relationships.

      2. Kinoko

        Agreed. He’s struggled to learn that not everyone wants to be objectified, but he IS learning. And that itself was pretty clearly him trying to push his own feelings away by keeping things casual, probably because he doesn’t want to be tangled up in a mess of bad like his parents were.

      3. Knayt

        Not making an almost public hotness database of everyone you’ve slept with is pretty basic relationship ethics. He screwed that one up.

        1. 3oranges

          I think Joe’s got a pretty good grasp of ethics in a relationship, and virtually none about ethics outside of one.

        2. leadsynth

          Point of clarification: It was more than just everyone he’d slept with… it was like, every woman on campus he’d met

    2. Mr D

      Speedball! Didn’t think there were other goons reading this.
      How you doing?

      1. Needfuldoer

        Wannabe goon who’s been lurking pretty consistently since 2006 or so here. Next time the forums close to visitors I’ll drop my tenbux, I swear.

        1. Mr D

          Join us! We have a lot of fun! (Heads up, using the lurker censorwords is a faux-pas) Mind you, I mostly stay in the LP and WoW subforums.

        2. Unusually Angry Hippie

          TEST ALLIANCE BEST ALLIANCE!

          Sorry, I saw goons and that just came out.

  4. Danni

    sarah’s a good dodger.

  5. Yumi

    Sorry, what’s that hover text?

    1. Ako

      It doesn’t really seem like it fits, does it.

    2. Danni

      something i never want to read again

    3. Black Drazon

      It’s been changed already! This is what I figured Willis meant but I admit it, I came to the comments to see if anyone else was confused about it too.

    4. Scoops

      Hah yah, first hovertext was more, uh, decadent.

      I suppose the new hovertext is more Joyce, though.

    5. Inahc

      I don’t get it either, but I like that on my tablet it shows over the comic instead of offscreen below it. 🙂
      …no wait, that’s just because it was in landscape mode. Now it’s below, and refusing to dismiss… Until I clicked the white part I think?

    6. Reltzik

      What did it say before the change?

      1. Spencer

        “trying to hate you, too busy orgasming.”

        1. Reltzik

          Well that explains why it was over when I checked in 15 minutes past posting time.

        2. Spencer

          It was pretty gross tbh.

        3. Marisa Mockery

          DAMN YOU WILLIS YOU SHOULD HAVE KEPT THAT

        4. N0083rp00F

          Or put hover text on the hover text – they can do that right?

        5. ValdVin

          Maybe something a little more euphemistic. “Trying to hate you, too busy *rapturing“.

    7. EvilMidnightLurker

      Can someone post it in spoilers for the curious, or was it somehow too much of a mistake to be preserved?

  6. Johan

    Aw he meant Joyce as his friend.

    1. leadsynth

      Ooh, good call! Maybe Joe was about to say “That’s not what I meant” before he cut himself off

  7. Proto

    “What he’s given” is some truly bad phrasing for someone who sees themselves in the right.

  8. QueerCat

    I mean the bridesmaid thing is fair

  9. Stephen Bierce

    *plays Sheena Easton’s “So Far So Good” on the hacked Muzak*

    1. Northamptonian

      Thats’s a good one. I’d go with a warning to Sarah that “Everything You Ever Wanted” can be vert different from what you wished:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of9kHpCv1ts#t=37m08s

  10. SpeckleSnowflake

    Huh. “Friend” in the singular? Sooo is it Joyce or Jacob. Cause she isn’t respecting either.

    1. DailyBrad

      She assumed he meant Jacob, but he seems to have been talking about Sarah. Given her reaction, I think she knows Joe has a valid point, but she doesn’t want to admit that to herself when this close to success.

    2. Rodimiss

      My impression is that the comic wants us to think he’s talking about Jacob, but then the redirect – Sarah assumes he’s talking about Jacob and refers to him, but Joe starts with “That’s not”. ‘That’s not who I was talking about’ could be the full sentence, perhaps? Because then he starts talking about Joyce.

      So I conclude that he means Joyce, but you’re right, from the other context on every end, it could really be either.

    3. Proto

      I think it’s obvious she thought he meant Jacob because of the roommate/bro connection, but he meant Joyce.

      I mean he probably cares about Jacob too, but Joyce is the one being really manipulated here.

    4. Kole

      like everyone has stated, she perceived Jacob but he meant Joyce. Also narratively it’d be about the time for Joe to start caring about Joyce being manipulated as he learns about respect for women, so this is a character growth moment for him.

    5. BenRG

      FWIW, I think that it came as a profound shock to Sarah that Joe meant Joyce and that he clearly cares about Joyce enough to confront her about her plots.

      1. kendermouse

        I don’t know about you, but /I/ was shocked that Joe just openly referred to her as a friend. (Not shocked he thinks of her as one, mind, just shocked that he would admit it.)

        1. Makkabee

          I don’t think he would yet, under ordinary circumstances — but these circumstances are far from ordinary.

  11. adjudicus

    Sure, you’re giving her everything you want, but what about what she wants?

    1. DarkoNeko

      She wants those abs

      1. newllend(henryvolt)

        For Sarah to have those abs ?

        1. adjudicus

          Having abs would complement her truck-build

      2. Reltzik

        I dunno, Sarah’s never been into boozing or drug use or smoking or anything like that. I can’t see her just slurping up a six-pack.

      3. ANeM

        She wants those abs connected to a male version of Dorothy who also goes to church.

        Wait, shit did I just describe Jacob?

    2. BenRG

      That’s the thing; in the end, I don’t think that Sarah believes Joyce is able to identify her own wants and needs, leaving Sarah with the duty to identify it for her and impose it on her.

      1. Badgermole

        Which is a frighteningly condescending attitude to have towards a friend. Yes Joyce does want Jacob, but she also wants to be a genuinely moral human being — Sarah thinks she’s nudging her towards getting the first thing but is almost certainly ensuring a personal crisis about the second thing when Joyce finds out what’s been going on. Which is remarkably short-sighted for big sis.

    3. Freemage

      This is the core issue, here. Sarah is deciding that the life she wants is the one that everyone should want, and is using manipulative tactics to make it happen for Joyce. It’s a very self-centered way of looking at the universe.

      Adding in the fact that her primary goal isn’t so much “Joyce happy forever” but “Raidah in tears”, and you get a very nasty tangle of motivations.

  12. BBCC

    Sarah, no.

    1. Mr. Mendo

      Yeesh, the one person she actually cares about she doesn’t even care about!

      1. BBCC

        I think she does. So now it depends how she handles that now that Joe’s pointed out how screwy this is.

  13. Passchendaele

    “People are too…too *happy* in weddings, so no thanks.”

    (Yes I’m being sarcastic.)

  14. DarkoNeko

    The weird part is that Joe seems as worried for Sarah than for the other two.

    1. DailyBrad

      He does seem to actually like Sarah. Most of their interactions in the past have been surprisingly pleasant, though obviously, the List definitely did not endear him to her in the slightest. In any case, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was disappointed in her behavior, which would make sense given Sarah’s typically appreciated for her blunt honesty, and this has been rather devious.

      1. thejeff

        “surprisingly pleasant”?

        She’s generally been yelling at him to back off. While he talks about how hot he finds her anger.

  15. Mango

    That joyceface in the twitter sidebar is…notable.

  16. AnvilPro

    Joe is the best

    1. Mr. Mendo

      Underrated, for sure! ^_^

    2. King Daniel

      Not the best, but he’s getting better.

      1. Makkabee

        And really isn’t that the standard to which we should all be held?

  17. Proto

    “Everything I’ve ever wanted” seems pretty weak when she’s had very few interactions with Jacob (some orchestrated by Joyce!) and has purposefully sabotaged herself. Like if she actually wanted Jacob might participate in Joyce’s initial plan instead of converting to her current revenge agenda.

    1. DailyBrad

      Joyce has explicitly stated that she wants to meet someone in college and hopefully start a family, so I’m pretty sure that’s probably what Sarah’s referencing, finding her a handsome Christian guy. I don’t agree with her rationalization, but the logic is sound

      1. Kinoko

        That would be “everything she’s ever wanted” (a handsome Christian guy who wants a family), but the line “everything I’ve ever wanted”.

        Sarah doesn’t want what Jacob wants. She admitted, she’d just like to use him for his body once or twice, but he’s not cool with that, so she’s not gonna.

        1. Kinoko

          * the line is

        2. DailyBrad

          Oh, duh, I totally misread. oops.

    2. Proto

      *she might participate, that is to say

    3. Jason

      So I’m wondering… is this a hint at more? Is this Willis having Sarah hint at what’s been going on for her? Because the wording is a little strong for someone with the hots for a guy she wants to bang.
      It’s possible she likes Jacob more as a person than we thought, but I don’t buy that (at this stage). So what is it that she wanted? A happily ever after? A family that supports who she’s grown to be? A future with someone who loves her? If not Jacob, what is it Joyce would get out of this that Sarah wants (but isn’t identifying outright as a want)?

      …Or am I reading too much into this?

    4. Felis Leo

      Welllllll…I’m not so sure. It depends on how you interpret this. The only thing that Sarah has ever seen Jacob as is apparently an object of her sexual gratification. She does not seem to care one whit about his hopes, aspirations or dreams or him as an individual (someone please correct me if I am wrong here and misremembered the storyline). Perhaps she thinks that it is wonderful that Joyce would have the opportunity to hit that; an opportunity that “she would never take,” because she does not believe in premarital sex. Of course, maybe I’m just reaching here, and Sarah is just that shallow-minded when it comes to relationships.

  18. BloodPlum

    It’s a little screwy morally all this, but in the end it is Jacob’s choice. Whether that was encouraged out of spite doesn’t change that.

    1. Keulen

      I agree. I think Sarah’s methods aren’t so great but I still kinda hope Jacob ends up with Joyce instead of Raidah. Mainly because I think Raidah’s a jerk for how she’s treated Sarah and Dina in the past.

      1. Charles RB

        Course, working to break up a couple because you dislike one of the people makes Joyce a jerk as well.

        1. thejeff

          Though that’s not what Joyce is doing. Joyce is working to break up a couple because she want him for herself to help her big sis out.

          Which isn’t exactly great motivation either.

        2. Jason

          That’s Sarah’s motivation, not Joyce’s. Joyce told herself that she was giving a totally-romantic-honest happily ever after for someone that she loves. I don’t think she’s yet cognisant of how much her feelings differ from what she first set out to do.
          Honestly, I don’t feel that what Joyce set out to do is that bad. Basically she wanted to convince the guy her big sis was into that she’s awesome, and hope that he decides she totally is and they end up getting married. She’s not trying to break up Jacob and Raidah directly, she’s just trying to go “hey, this other option is pretty fantastic!” and kinda… hoping he does the rest.
          Of course, that’s not what she ACTUALLY wants, and I’m wondering how she’ll react when she works that out. Because I suspect she’ll suddenly see things VERY differently.

  19. tirachokko

    STILL SHIPPING JOYCE WITH JOE THO
    NO WAIT
    AUGH
    LIKE JOYCE, MY SHIPS ARE QUANTUM I GUESS

    1. Suzi

      Its okay. I shio a threeway Joe-Jacob-Joyce. The SS JJJ.

      1. Proto

        SSJ3? *screams for 5 straight minutes*

        Sorry that took so long. You can call this Super Shipper 3.

        1. Delicious Taffy

          That sick guitar riff, though.

        2. StClair

          “And this… is to go even further beyond!“

      2. Reltzik

        …. Sarah/Sal?

        1. Jason

          …Shippin’ people based solely on alliterative names?

        2. Reltzik

          Just trying to figure out what “SS” stnads for there.

        3. Jason

          Oh! It’s a ship prefix. For example, in Pokemon, there’s a ship called SS Anne. It’s probably the best known ship prefix. (Here there’s HMS, which is Her(his) Majesty’s Ship.)
          It’s used before romantic ship names, because… I guess someone started it as a joke and it stuck?

        4. Indoor Cat

          For irl ships, the prefixs explains what kind of vessel it is. So a “T.S.” is a Turbine Ship– a designated created when the first steam engines were added to boats, and typically associated with military or naval ships.

          RV is “research vessel,” for oceanographers or marine biologists. HMS is specifically for the British Navy, meaning “Her Majesty’s Ship.” USS is for American Navy, meaning “United States Ship.”

          So “SS” is the abbreviation for a “Single-crew Steamliner,” a small ship not for war, not for science, but for long journeys or adventures. Probably how it got associated with romantic shipping.

        5. Reltzik

          Yeah, I know that, I’m just creatively reinterpreting. 🙂

    2. Zach

      Joe would have meaningful sex for the first time, Joyce will grow into a pornlord, and totally trusts Joe and Jacob. Will Jacob go for a 3 way with his only known male friend?

  20. NF

    When Joe is schooling you on the subject of relationship ethics you know you’ve gone astray.

    1. Reltzik

      And yet when Mike does it it’s just business as normal. …. I don’t think that ability to school on relationship ethics correlates with exercise of relationship ethics.

    2. Mr D

      I mean, he is solid on RELATIONSHIP ethics, since his problem is quite literally “Nope, don’t get into relationships, if I don’t get into a relationship, I can’t cheat like my dad did”.

      His issue has always been more of, I dunno, sexuality ethics?

      1. Reltzik

        More of a general respect issue. Even outside of sexual contexts.

        1. Mr D

          yeah. So far he’s always had this issue of repsecting people.

          Hell, Dan is his oldest, best friend, and for most of the strip he has pretty much treated him like garbage.

        2. insomniac

          I mean… Dan tho

        3. Mr D

          None of that, most of the dislike this community had for Dan was inherited from Roomies!Dan, who was kind of a dipshit (As Willis’ Fully Indoctrinated Era Self-Insert would be). DoA!Danny has always been a good egg. If a little naive.

  21. Reltzik

    Huh. Sarah trying to get uninvited from a wedding…. I think that’s called nopetials.

    1. adjudicus

      Nopetials… that does have a nice ring to it

      1. Reltzik

        Nice ring? Maybe.

        Wedding ring? NOPE!

    2. JessWitt

      Encode it in Urban Dictionary, stat. It’s a good word.

  22. StClair

    Panel 6: That may be so, Sarah.
    But it’s also absolutely true that you are using Joyce.

  23. AgentKeen

    “You call me out for objectifying women, but you seem fine with treating Joyce like a pawn.”

  24. Mr D

    First panel Sarah trying to misdirect like hell.

  25. Miguel

    What’s happening?

    1. Danni

      sarah’s majorly rationalizing using joyce to get back at raidah because of dana.

      1. Jason

        Not quite because of Dana. Dana’s why Raidah treated Sarah the way she did, and Sarah wants to get back at Raidah for how she’s been treated.
        Sarah probably would have been content to lose Dana’s social circle, without the harassment. I’m guessing, anyway. Less thrilled with it than she would pretend, but I don’t think she’d hold a grudge over that.

  26. Jordan

    Dammit Sarah, you’re one of my favorite characters, but you just keep trying to sink lower and lower into your misanthropic tendencies. I get that you’re trying to distance yourself from people so you don’t get hurt while also hurting someone who has hurt you in the past, but this is just wrong. You ADORE Joyce, despite how different she is from you and you’ve literally beaten a man like a pinata for hurting her. If you really want to help Joyce and beat Raidah, you’ve got to be successful in a way that isn’t tearing others down. You’ve got to build yourself up, not bring others down. C’mon Sarah…

    1. BBCC

      I’m not tooooo worried yet. Looking at her face in the last panel, I have a feeling guilt is going to catch her before this gets TOO out of hand.

      1. bleepbloop

        Agreed. I think people are overreacting a bit. This conversation with Joe isn’t a sign of sinking further, it’s a wake-up call. Joyce and her will definitely have a falling out but they’ll make up within a week comic time.

  27. dethtolldotmid

    Jesus. I think this is probably the lowest point for Sarah’s character arc we’ve seen yet.

  28. Spencer

    Sarah should give up on the whole occasional grand acts of kindness thing because she’s remarkably effective at being a terrible person.

    1. FLUFFYWOLF

      It’s the Walter White problem. Being good at something no sane person would WANT to be good at.

      1. thejeff

        Thing is, she’s not actually that good at it. She’s not really doing much to push the plan through.

    2. David M Willis

      You said you needed to stop reading this to help your mental health and i’m going to help that along

      1. Valerie

        I don’t know the context for this, but if Spencer really does need to quit reading and is having trouble staying off the site, there’s a browser extension called Impulse Blocker that I use (because I spend an unhealthy amount of time on Facebook without it).

    3. bleepbloop

      Sarah: does one selfish thing

      Literally everyone in the comments: She’s such a terrible person!

      1. Deadjolras

        Expressing disapproval over a character’s actions is not the same as disliking them, hating them or thinking they’re a bad person. I love Sarah but I firmly believe this scheme of hers is based on not-so-noble intentions and it will end up with someone getting hurt one way or another.

  29. Dev

    As someone who does think that Jacob and Joyce have the potential for a great friendship (or maybe something more since they’re just adorable), the fact that Joe is also standing up for her impresses me. I like the fact that Joe’s seeing it too and considers Joyce a friend.

    Not that this diminishes what happened to Joyce with the attack, but the guys are respectful (if they know what’s happening at all) helps a lot. Both have their pitfalls somehow, Joe pushes her buttons in some ways but obviously is trying to better himself and clearly cares about her as a friend, and Jacob could have been snotty about religion with her but respects her viewpoints since she respects his, even though they disagree. To me that makes them seem more real and great characters, because they too have flaws.

    Sarah’s setting herself up for a harsh fall and I wish she wasn’t. 🙁 But a flawed character makes for interesting stories. I hope it doesn’t ruin the clear trust Joyce has in her…

  30. Brute

    Sarah nooo

  31. BenRG

    Sarah, the key criterion here is this: Are you being open with Joyce about what you’re doing for her. If you aren’t, then it’s manipulation and ethically dubious. If you aren’t even seeking her input about what ‘she wants’ but instead imposing upon her what you want, then it begins to verge on the abusive.

  32. mister gray

    I still ship Joe and Joyce and Sarah will probably lose Joyce’s friendship if she realizes that Sarah is using her to destroy Jacob’s relationship with Radiah (Or whatever her name is)

  33. Badgermole

    Sarah is covertly setting up Joyce with Jacob for a reason — because if she openly shipped Joyce and Jacob here (which is a legit thing friends can do), Joyce would at the very least have some doubts and would need it to square it with her personal ethics. You know you’re doing something ethically dodgy when you’re hiding it from the person it would most directly affect. C’mon Sarah, where are the hard truths I love you for?

  34. Chaucer59

    Jacob is “everything [Sarah] ever wanted”? Seriously? She‘s only known him for one school year—right?

    1. Jmacq1

      It may be somewhat in the abstract vs Jacob specifically: A handsome, intelligent, handsome, relatively thoughtful and pleasant handsome guy who has a bit of self awareness and is comfortable in his own skin.

    2. Jason

      Less than that. A few months at best.
      But I posted above that I suspect she’s referring to something else, which we haven’t really seen much of from her before. Such as a happily ever after, or unconditional love perhaps (although few people who crave that can identify that), etc. I could be wrong but the obvious choice doesn’t feel like it fits for me.
      Unless she’s WAY more into Jacob than previously shown and/or sees him as a symbol of something.

    3. ValdVin

      I want to unpack the “Jacob is something Joyce could easily take, but never would”.

      Take, like in Sarah’s (admitted) visions of having a physical fling with Jacob, or take, as in Joyce’s friendship with Jacob could make Jacob+Raidah founder, after which the husband-hunting Joyce would refuse to date Jacob owing to latent guilt?

      Joyce has been on two dates in her life, one with joe, one with Ethan. When that rom-com hijinx in motion now finally pops, she may have remorse that she’s not even aware exists now.

  35. Reltzik

    Oh, since I’m not on Twitter I’ll just post a reply for Willis here. German for a mix of “lol” and “we are so fucked” is der Galgenhumor.

    1. Jason

      “Gallows humour”, according to Google. I like it.

  36. Liam

    I really wish I could convey in words how much I enjoy seeing Joe being able (and very much right) to take the moral high ground.

    1. JessWitt

      You just did. 😀

      But seriously, it is nice to see him be rational for once. While not nice that Sarah is losing sight of what this will do to Joyce.

  37. Eldritch Gentleman

    Ah sweet sweet self-denial.

  38. lightsabermario

    I’m sorry, but what EXACTLY has Sarah actually done to “use” Joyce? I’m serious, I’m looking through the archives, and while there has been a few mentions of schemes, everything that has led to Joyce and Jacob flirting has occurred completely naturally and unforced. Every time Joyce interacts with Jacob, they have chemistry, without any pushing from others, and whether Joyce realized it or not. The only thing you could say she’s done is stand by and willingly not interrupt their attraction for each other, which is itself interfering. If Jacob wants to fall for Joyce and vice versa, that’s their business.

    Furthermore, back in , both Sarah and Joyce both outright stated that they wanted Raidah and Jacob to break up, and replace Raidah with each other (Joyce and Sarah). Joyce pretty much has had the exact same mission that Joe is criticizing Sarah for having, only Joyce did way more actual pushing to try and make it happen. So why all the guff for Sarah?

    1. lightsabermario

      Dangit, how did that hyperlink mess up?

      1. chris73

        The problem is that Joyce is extremely naive and believes rom-com shenanigans don’t have any negative effect on anyone (because obviously Raidah isn’t right for Jacob) therefore its ok to break them up)

        Sarah knows this is wrong but isn’t trying to dissuade Joyce of this notion but instead is collaborating with Joyce and encouraging her

        Both Sarah and Joyce are objectifying Jacob but Sarah is also objectifying Joyce as well as being a major hypocrite (ref Joes objectifying)

        1. lightsabermario

          Don’t get me wrong, if Sarah, knowing full well it was wrong, actually did something to force them together, it would be worthy of Joe’s shaming. Like if she orchestrated the whole toe injury so that Joyce would be whisked away in his arms, that would be something. Or even if she got Joyce super dolled up for church, but no, that was Billie. But if her only crime is not coming in-between their self-driving attraction for each other, I’m failing to see the wrongdoing.

        2. chris73

          Sarah is doing her best to break up a relationship to hurt Raidah and is actively encouraging Joyce and once Joyce learns that actions have consequences (that if Jacob and Raidah break up because of her then she’ll have hurt Raidah) Sarah will have deliberately put “her little sister” in a morally questionable position

          Her crime “is not coming in-between their self-driving attraction for each other” her crime is using Joyces naivity and objectifying Jacob

          I’d add more crimes but its 10:54 pm where I am so I’m off to bed

        3. Charles RB

          And her defence of that, of trying to break up a couple as revenge, is “Jacob can choose” – hey, not _her_ fault, it’s all him! And if Jacob and Joyce care about why she’s done all this, well, Sarah doesn’t care if they care.

          Creep Town, population: Sarah

        4. CJ

          You really can’t put this only a Sarah’s plate: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/relentlessly/

          Also, i really don’t see what the fuss is all about. Sarah wants to hurt Raidah by getting Jacob and Joyce together. This is not a really wise move, but you know what? It’s not earth-shattering whichever way this plays out. Teenage relationships are not the hub of the world and most don’t last more then 3 years at the most (most I saw barely reached the 6 months mark). Why? Because people have to learn what they need in a relationship and that means trying, changing, and moving on.
          No one acts in a really underhand way, no one is lying about someone else (except Raidah who lied about Sarah). It’s not wise, it’s not really cricket, but bad is a totally different kettle of fish.
          Are you only friends with perfect people that always act in a wise and totally unselfish manner?

        5. thejeff

          Because it still hurts. Teenage relationships may tend to be short, but they hurt just as much.

        6. adjudicus

          @thejeff This. So much this. Speaking as a teenager, I’ve seen so many of my friends go through so much pain even if the relationship only lasted about a month

        7. bleepbloop

          Kinda annoyed that Sarah’s being more or less demonized for doing the exact same thing Joyce was trying to do. Intentions do not matter, they BOTH were completely fine with breaking up a (seemingly) healthy relationship for selfish reasons. If we’re going to call Sarah a creep then Joyce should be one too, especially since Joyce was admittedly way too enthusiastic about tearing Jacob and Raidah apart. Joyce is 18. She’s not a child. She knows deep down that this is wrong as well. Let’s stop falling back on her so-called naivete to excuse her actions. There is no way that she doesn’t know that what she’s doing is wrong. Joyce has been just as fake altruistic as Sarah is being. So, sure, should Sarah let Joyce in on the new plot? Of course! But let’s not act like Joyce is so innocent compared to Sarah. I knew people didn’t like her but gosh. A “creep”?!

        8. Ellegos

          I guess where the questionable part with Sarah is that she first instigated Joyce under false pretenses. Joyce began this under the impression that she was trying to break up the relationship in order to hook up Sarah and Jacob. That was her motive in beginning this in the first place. Though there is a growing relationship between her and Jacob, and it seems like Joyce’s motive is probably in the process of shifting, she began this because she thought she was helping Sarah. Sarah knows this, and knows that’s why Joyce was (is?) trying to break up Jacob’s current relationship, and is doing nothing to try and tell Joyce that the original pretenses this whole operation was based on, aren’t true.

          Don’t get me wrong. Joyce still bears any guilt (depending on your views of such things) that comes from trying to sabotage an apparently healthy relationship, but it still seems wrong to me that Sarah isn’t coming clean and telling Joyce that if she is going to do this, it should be based on whether or not JOYCE wants a relationship with Jacob. Not because she’s Sarah wants to be with Jacob.

        9. Ellegos

          P.S.
          And it’s also worth noting that even Sarah recognizes that she’s manipulating Joyce, even if she seems to thing it’s altruistic. “Using her? I’m giving her everything I’ve ever wanted. Something she could easily take, but never would.”

          She knows Joyce wouldn’t be doing (or at least wouldn’t have began) this of her own volition if she wasn’t encouraged to under false pretenses.

    2. thejeff

      Sarah gets more guff partly because Sarah’s motivations are different than Joyce’s. Sarah’s in this to punish Raidah – keep her from winning the guy. Joyce is theoretically in this to help her friend get the guy she wants.

      Both aren’t great ethically because they’re trying to break up an existing relationship, but only Sarah has actually hurting someone as her main goal.

      And she is being dishonest to her “little sister” about the whole thing. Joyce is only being dishonest to herself.

    3. Felis Leo

      Agreed. Both Sarah and Joyce are behaving in a terrible manner trying to breakdown a perfectly healthy relationship. Sarah is doing it with the specific intention of hurting someone. Joyce is doing it for pie-in-the-sky fairy tale reasons. We can argue until the cows come home as to whose motivation is worse (Sarah’s, for my money) but the are engaging in toxic behavior when intermeddling with other people’s relationships.

  39. JessWitt

    Should this farce of a plan succeed, Sarah also positioned Raidah’s ire on Joyce so not exactly a win-win. Wonder if Sarah will come out then to deflect blame for her “little sister”?

  40. Eldritch Gentleman

    There is some serious bitterness in that last line.

    1. BenRG

      Like Amber, Sarah considers herself unfit for human companionship, so she feels able to offer bitter quips on the subject.

  41. Delicious Taffy

    I’m very about to sleep and so maybe not so coherent, but does anyone know a good vegan substitute for pork? If mushroom then please not the God-awful nothing ones they put in everything in Illinois. I like pork but it makes me feel sluggish like a turkey full of xannies, and I figure why not try a vegan option.

    1. Delicious Taffy

      Wait this the wrong tab. Was meant for another site entirely. I guess it stands, if anyone here knows. Y’all tend to be smarter than I do.

      1. Victor

        There is no vegan substitute for pork. I mean, the pig is just such an amazing animal, every single part is tasty. You’re probably just eating too much at once, and not getting enough of the liver and stomach. (Every part is tasty.)

        Mushrooms are good, if you eat decent ones. Just avoid the boring white button ones that taste of nothing and sadness, grab some portabellas, shiitakes, and wood ears, and try some other options. Don’t go mushroom hunting in the wild unless you go with an expert, the deadly ones look a lot like the edible ones.

        And remember, mushrooms are good as mushrooms, they’re not a substitute for pork or anything else. Enjoy them for what they are, not what they aren’t. When you need delicious pig, there is no substitute.

      2. Zeriel

        You need a copy of “The Homemade Vegan Pantry” by Miyoko Schinner, her vegan “unpork” and “unribs” are to die for. (well, they’re acceptable, anyway.)

      3. JustCheetoDust

        I found out about a vegan restaurant that uses jackfruit as a meat-free alternative to BBQ pulled pork when I was in Orlando for WrestleMania last year.

    2. Not Pork

      I think it probably depends on what you’re trying to do with it, but seitan tends to be a pretty good meat substitute in general, and I’ve seen recipes that specifically use it to replace pork. It’s a little more work to deal with than mushrooms would probably be and will cost similar to what actual meat would, but it can do the trick.

    3. Huehuetotl

      Gluten. Also called seitan. You can buy it premade in easily cookable pieces. Check where you might buy international/asian foods. It will probably be chunks or shreds size, not pork chop sized. The texture is close (imo), but it’s not going to taste the same if you’re making it plain.

      If you’re making it yourself, I hear you can flavor it with bac-os or bac’n pieces (Betty Crocker / McCormick), which are actually vegan. If you’re buying the [vital wheat] gluten flour to make on your own, it will probably take some experimenting (for both texture and flavor), and the price can vary wildly. The cheapest I see it is when Mennonites are selling it, maybe half the price of Bob’s Red Mill vital wheat gluten (iirc).

  42. Ardin

    Yeah I don’t get it. Letting a friend hang with a dude doesn’t equal drugging them and using ancient black magic to make them bang. “Find out” what? That she said “hey hang with Jacob, thanks”? This is kinda stupid.

    1. Fart Captor

      She’s also got her to dress differently to get her to catch his eye, enlisted Becky’s help in manipulating them, and has repeatedly mislead Joyce into thinking she’s helping Sarah get together with him because she’s into him, when her primary motive is hurting Raidah.

      Joyce might be willing to accept that Raidah would be hurt since Jacob would have to break up with her to date Sarah, but I doubt she’d be okay with making it happen expressly to hurt someone, especially when she’d benefit from that. Even if she’d be 100% fine with it, Sarah isn’t being honest with her. She’s deliberately manipulating her friend to ensure she can use her against Raidah.

      Joe is right to take issue with that.

  43. ValdVin

    Willis’ “confused pursed-lip” is great on Sarah in the last panel, a la:

    Walky in panel six here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-8/02-this-is-the-way-that-we-love/amberomalley/

    Carla’s last appearance here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/exchange/

  44. Bagge

    Pictured: Sarah not feeling guilty. Not guilty at all.

  45. bleepbloop

    Hate how the comments are treating Sarah. Sure, what she’s doing is morally questionable, but gosh. The way some of you are making it out to be, it sounds like she’s worse than creepy gashface who’s name I forgot. People are calling her a terrible person and a creep and all sorts of horrible things because…she’s very selfishly and secretively trying to set her friend up with a guy in order to make a girl who has been nothing but awful to her upset? That’s petty, immature, somewhat morally reprehensible but…it’s not as evil as you all are saying. I know Sarah isn’t many people’s favorite character but…jeeze.

    1. bleepbloop

      *whose

    2. Doopyboop

      Agreed. I get disagreeing with Sarah’s actions, I disagree with them too. I feel bad for Joyce. But sometimes the comments have issues parsing greyer issues. Sarah’s decisions here: no bueno. Very bad. Won’t end well. But some sort of sign that she is now unforgivable and a total bongo who’s gonna set the town ablaze and kicks puppies? not so much.

      1. Doopyboop

        *and Jacob too, obviously, feel bad for him most of all.

      2. Jason

        I agree that a lot of comments are… harsher than I personally feel. But I think the biggest issue here is how she’s using Joyce. She’s using someone who trusts her implicitly, getting her best friend to join in, to do something that I think Joyce would be STRONGLY opposed to. (I know she was willing to do the exact same thing for Sarah but I feel like she would find it utterly reprehensible to consider for herself.) I can’t blame those who feel like she’s betraying her relationship with Joyce in order to get back at Raidah.

        (Also Raidah’s name causes me brain short circuits because I used to work for a woman called Radiah.)

    3. BBCC

      I think Sarah’s being an asshole here, but I think she’ll end up feeling guilty and spilling her guts to Joyce soonish. And frankly, she beat the shit out of Ryan with a baseball bat. She has a LOT of goodwill to burn through before I stop liking her.

    4. Felis Leo

      Well, when held against the standards of Creepy Gashface, you can certainly excuse a lot of horrible damaging behavior. Speaking only for myself, the reason I feel the need to express a greater level of condemnation against Sarah is because I expect WAY MORE from Sarah than we do from Creepy Gashface, because Creepy Gashface is an irredeemably violent narcissistic rapist who I highly doubt will have any form of moral awakening with regard to the suffering he inflicted (and attempted to inflict) upon others. Sarah is a moral human being with a conscience that she is refusing to listen to because she hates Raidah and wants to cause Raidah to suffer. Sarah lost her friends and support group; she wants Raidah to be equally humiliated and lose someone that she loves.

  46. TemperaryObsessor

    I could see Sarah apparently succeeding but not. Jacob leaves Raidah for Joyce, but Joyce refuses because of a sis code against taking Sarah’s crush. Sarah admits what happened and Joyce is mad at her and tries to get Jacob back with Raidah which fails because if he’s willing to dump her for some pretty Christian girl now he will do it again, thanks for the heads up before I wasted more of my time on him.

  47. Derek

    this is only tangentially related, but what does Joyce think of the biblical story of Tamar and Judah (Genesis 38)

  48. LupLun

    You know you’ve fucked shit up when JOE is the voice of reason…

  49. Yumi

    I’m sitting next to my friend as I have her begin her archive binge of the comic. The NSFW banners have spoiled her a little.
    Also she though Walky was named Billie.

    1. Yumi

      She’s rooting for Joyce (“the Christian girl,” as she calls her) and Danny to get together.

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