Yes you should, Animaniacs and Tiny Toon Adventures are some of the best cartoons ever made, and they managed to get the best voice actors as well. I grabbed the box sets for both of them as soon as they were available, and I have come as close to wearing out DVDs as it is possible to get.
I’m pretty sure that the gonads aren’t located in the brain, actually. They may not be in quite the same place for men and women, but thinking with them instead of the gray matter is usually a problem for anyone.
MatsuoTanuki
What about the metaphorical “lizard brain”, i.e. the parts that deal with base desires like sex and food sometimes overriding a person’s rational, logical reasoning.
Also hoping for Marydemption, any other characters who could conceivably be redeemed?
Reltzik
Probably not Ryan. I mean, sure, it’s possible that he sees the error of his ways, reforms, and becomes nothing but a boon to all, but redemption kinda means that the audience feels okay about him too, or at least kinda-conflicted-but-leaning-his-way, and I don’t think that’s happening.
Probably not Blaine either.
Toedad could have a redemption, I think. Carol. Those are the two big ones in my head.
Ethan’s parents. Danny’s parents. Maybe Joe?
Unusually Angry Hippie
I’m still wondering why people seem to think Joe needs redemption. He hasn’t actually done anything wrong. At all. He might have some decidedly un-feminist reasons for doing what he does, but you don’t see the all the girls happily lining up to bang him complaining about it, either. And I’m sure you would all consider those women’s decision to seek out those sexual encounters for purely lust-related reasons empowered for doing so.
So why the double standard? In fact, I’m pretty sure Joe pointed out one of the biggest double-standards of all when he was talking to Danny about why he didn’t sleep with Billy. Why is it your place, or anyone elses, to tell a woman who she should or shouldn’t have sex with, and Joe’s made it clear that he expressly doesn’t pursue women who aren’t interested.
Also, if it wasn’t a gimmick played for laughs because he’s a ‘dudebro’, Joe would have a very real and very serious legal case against both Joyce and Mike for felony assault and battery. You can’t treat the comic as ‘serious business’ when feminist issues are involved but all in good fun when your ‘acceptable targets’ are on the receiving end.
This double-standard that the alt-left has is…okay, not nearly as horrible as the alt-right’s craziness, but still pretty damn toxic. I’m prepared to recive flak for saying this, but I’m cool with it. Crucify away. I’ll load you a little more ammunition. Yes, I’m a white, suburban, middle-class privileged piece of shit.
Sure, I’m also bisexual, but it’s been made clear to me by now that I’m not a ‘real’ LGBT because of my passing privilege, as if it’s wrong to out anyone else, but bisexuals are expected out themselves to all and sundry if we want to be part of the conversation.
DISCLAIMER:Commenting Drunk, spellcheck is awesome.
The short of it is, while Joe may *technically* think consent is important, his standards for both what constitutes consent and what requires consent suck.
In my mind, the plainest example is when Joe hit on Sarah, and she to literally told him to fuck off. Not long afterwards, he was trying it again. He accepts “no”, but he forces women to repeat it, over and over, and when he hears it, he acts like they were being unreasonable for getting upset about his persistent badgering.
morg
By that logic if I ask you for beer money again and again and you keep saying no but finally you give in just to shut me up I am guilty of theft. That’s stupid. Should you be able to send the police after me?
A person who keeps asking again may be annoying, they may even be creepy and it is ok for you to feel that way about them. It may even be so bad that you decide to cut them out of your life and that is cool too because who you spend time with is your business. Lonliness is the natural price to pay for beeing an annoying creep.
That’s all it is though, an annoying person you are better off not hanging out with. A person who violates consent is a rapist. A mere annoying person does not deserve that label likewise an actual rapist does not deserve to have the meaning of their label reduced by throwing in mere annoying people who are NOT guilty of rape.
It’s kind of like finding out your neighbor is on the sex offender list. And then you find out that people can get on that list by relatively harmless things like peeing in an alley outside a bar or something like that. Maybe your neighbor is only guilty of something like that which they did one drunk night that they regret and will never repeat. Or maybe they rape children for kicks. See, widening your definitions of offenses to include everyone who does something you don’t like kind of destroys the meaning and purpose of words doesn’t it?
thejeff
You’re right. If Joe did that he would not be a rapist. He’d be a creep and an asshole and I’d avoid him. If that was the behavior I observed in public (or heard of from other women), it would also raise sufficient warning flags that I’d would be wary as hell of being alone with him if I was a woman and would warn others of my suspicions.
Which is all about what people are saying about Joe here. What we’ve seen of his behavior is creepy and concerning. I don’t recall accusations that he’s actually raped anyone.
morg
@theJeff – “I was commenting on the statement that “his standards for both what constitutes consent and what requires consent suck.”
That implies that what he considers consent isn’t really consent and logically that would make it rape.
So, what would you be warning others about? That he will nag them for sex? That’s pretty fair. That you think he might go beyond that? it’s all up to Willis of course but i don’t get the impression at all that he would.
At what point does a warning about what somebody ‘might’ do change from a ‘public service anouncement’ to the spreading of hurtful rumors? That’s a pretty vicious thing to have people thinking about you. There is a fine line there one should be careful of crossing. This is why in the legal system we have the concept of innocent until proven guilty. We do not have this in our everyday social interactions though. You should be careful what you say about people because you can really cause a lot of damage.
What he considers consent is consent, but just barely. Badgering someone until they give in isn’t as bad as forcing yourself on them, but it’s still shitty behavior.
In general, he just pursues sex without regard for what the woman wants. From the minute he met Joyce, it was painfully obvious that she was looking for a long-term relationship, not casual sex. Joe feigned interest in a relationship, and decided she needed to be “broken in”. He actually thought manipulating her into having sex with him, going against deeply held beliefs, would have been good for her.
Joe may not be a rapist, but the margin by which he is not is uncomfortably narrow.
thejeff
About what he might do. About where he might stop.
Yeah, warning people “I don’t trust this creepy guy, be careful about being along with him” might “cause a lot of damage”, though I’m not sure exactly what.
I’d feel an awful lot worse if someone I could have warned did get raped by the guy I thought was creepy.
Should we never caution anyone or even be careful ourselves until and unless someone’s been proven guilty in a court of law? (And of course once they’ve served their time, there’s no reason to not trust them again and having committed one crime doesn’t mean they’d commit others.)
Honestly, from the meta point of view, knowing Willis, Joe isn’t going to rape anyone. He’s not even going to actually get laid in any situation where he did push the line and got uncomfortably close to rapey. But that’s meta stuff that I wouldn’t be able to rely on dealing with a real world Joe. And the behavior we’ve seen from Joe would be raising huge red flags in the real world. Not proof of anything, but all the signs.
Which is why, as I’ve said before, I’d really like to see more of Joe’s “game”. I’d like to see him trying to seduce someone and see how he handles the resistance. See when and if he backs off with the screaming at him or punches and threats of baseball bats. I’d like to see more of what Joe’s idea of consent looks like in practice, rather than just in theory.
Yotomoe
Except when Joe found out how earnestly Joyce wanted to be in a relationship he stopped trying to have sex with her and actually tried to have a real date. His desire to “break her in” is only coming with the assumption that she’s the “represses christian girl who’s looking for an excuse to let loose”. He doesn’t continue trying to coax her into sex beyond the point she shows up to the date. In fact he feels inadequate in his attire and tries to change.
Joe is very pushy sure, but not more pushy than say…Billie or Ruth. Billie who literally kissed Danny suddenly and started disrobing on top of him without a seconds warning, or Ruth the girl who started making out with the girl she was physically abusing. Had Joe done EITHER of these things (regardless of stopping when consent was pushed away) everyone here would have a much lower opinion of him. But he doesn’t. He’s pushy and persistent but he does back off when he feels he can’t get further with someone.
Any supposed rape vibes to Joe is due to the natural fear of men by women because men are imposing and strong and they feel they couldn’t do anything if he DID start raping them.But as far as flirting goes, Joe tries to get with girls and insists on it, because he loves having sex, and it takes two to tango. It might seem disrespectful to keep pushing after one attempt, but I’ll be honest, a LOT of relationships or hookups don’t just…immediately click.
“Sex?”
“Yes”
“And then they had sex together forever”
And even in that above situation, one or maybe both of them could theoretically see it as a mistake in hindsight or regret it. I think a lot of people who don’t take the first “no” as a hard stop probably don’t view as a very traumatic or life affirming event like a lot of people seem to.
Then again I’m not a woman so anything I say is somewhat irrelevant.
Yomatoe, those “supposed rape vibes” never seem to emanate from other male characters, like Walky, Danny, Ethan, or Jacob.
Joe’s behavior is absolutely the reason why. Ethan and Jacob are just as tall, just as masculine, and just as physically intimidating as Joe would be, but we’ve never seen a single instance where either of them made a woman feel unsafe or even uncomfortable.
There’s also a huge difference between not immediately giving up completely at the first “no”, and soldiering on even after being told “fuck off”.
And Ruth really isn’t a strengthening your point. I like her and Billie, but she was incredibly lucky that Billie didn’t file charges against her, because that forced kiss was fucked up. She assaulted Billie there, physically, then sexually. She was just fortunate in that Billie ended up forgiving her for it. That does not by any means make it okay.
BBCC
“By that logic if I ask you for beer money again and again and you keep saying no but finally you give in just to shut me up I am guilty of theft. That’s stupid. Should you be able to send the police after me?”
No, but you would have pressured someone into giving you money which is not illegal. Only with sex, pressuring someone into giving it up IS rape via coercion. Pressuring someone via repeated insistence counts. Sex requires active (or enthusiastic) consent. Just ‘the absence of a no’ isn’t good enough. It requires a freely given (aka un-coerced, sober, non manipulated and informed) yes.
Joe continuously trying to pressure people into bed is skeevy as fuck and if he succeeded, yes, he’d be a rapist. He probably wouldn’t go to jail, no, but that’s hardly the authority on what does or does not make someone a rapist since most rapists don’t ever get convicted (either due to lack of report, lack of evidence, etc). Sex crime and abuse in general have abysmal conviction rates because they’re difficult to prove – which is also why legal definitions don’t tend to cover everything sociological definitions of rape and abuse do, because those are much trickier to prove to court standards.
Yotomoe
Fair enough. As a counterpoint though, Ethan is gay and the closest to “flirting” he’s ever gotten is just being shy around Danny.
Jacob hasn’t really been seen being flirty with anyone. Even with his own girlfriend he’s been nothing but doting. Danny’s also taken a very submissive route to most of his relationship, considering he’s dating a super hero. He rarely “takes the lead”. Walky is probably the only guy who you could say does and he’s also really scrawny and tiny. If Joe acted more like Walky it’d also be kinda suspect. (Like throwing a toy at a girl) But that’s because he’s a big guy.
I feel like Joe’s Bravado can make people uncomfortable for sure, but I think it kinda underlies how scary a rape really is. If someone carries a gun around all the time I might be nervous around them, but I wouldn’t call them a murderer, until they murder someone.
thejeff
Yotomoe: It’s not just or even mostly Joe’s actual flirting. He said he was going to fix Joyce with his penis. He posts a public “todo list” rating girls he knows. He talks about alcohol helping with threesomes.
He’s creepy as hell and it’s not just his bravado or that he flirts or him being a big guy. He says the right things about consent, but he seems to actually just view it as an obstacle to overcome.
And to jump back a post or two: He very definitely does not stop trying with Joyce and just have a normal date. He’s still on his game, it’s just a slightly longer game. He tries to bribe Mike to get out of the way. He keeps circling the conversation back to sex. He keeps working it until the punching gets too much.
Mind you, Joyce & Mike were far worse during that date. There’s no excuse for it. I likely would have begged off when she announced the chaperone and certainly when the punching was mentioned. OTOH, had I gone on the date I would have been trying to get to know her, not just focusing on sex.
Alexsam
Fart Captor’s statement that Joe tries to hit on Sarah again after she tells him no is wrong. I looked throughout the tags for the comic and it doesn’t happen.
Greenygal
No, you’re right, after she explicitly tells him she’s not interested in him he doesn’t hit on her again.
On the other hand, by that point she had already told him that she hated him and he should fuck off. His reaction, albeit not to her face, was that she would be great in the sack, and the next time they met he followed up by flirting with her even though she looked disgusted. So Joe will accept a direct “no”, but he will ignore any other signals, no matter how vehement.
Joe totally accepts “no”. If you repeat it several times, and get angry about it.
At that point, he declares that you’re either crazy or a lesbian, and finally gives up.
Reltzik
I kinda view Joe as…. borderline in all the cases you mention. He’s not really crossing serious boundaries, but he’s edging near them in ways that make people uncomfortable and pressured. Not someone you revile as despicable, but also not someone you want near you.
I don’t think that’s why Joe might need redeeming, though. My problem with him is mostly how terrible of a friend he’s been to Danny.
(And yeah, what Mike did was definitely A&B. Questionable how liable Joyce is, but there would be a case there. I think it got a pass less because of Joe being a designated bad-guy and more because Mike never faces consequences for his actions. Different conversation entirely.)
Reltzik
(Wait, Joyce joined in at one point. Yup, definitely liable then.)
ischemgeek
“Not really crossing serious boundaries”? Come the hell on. You realize sexual harassment is a thing, right?
Joe views consent as a legal technicality, not as aomething he, personally, needs to be concerned with on a moral level. He is the kind of guy who wouldn’t pull a Ryan because he might get caught… but he will badger women to see if he can coerce consent though harassment, he is not above using alcohol to get women to agree to stuff they wouldn’t while sober (alcohol is the most common date rape drug btw), and he has shown repeatedly that he views any boundaries not enforced with violence or the threat thereof as a challenge.
The difference between Joe and Ryan is one of degree not of kind.
ischemgeek
Joe is the kind of creepy-ass sexual harasser who pretends to be European to coerce strange North American women into kissing him. He’s the business man who uses his position to coerce junior women into accepting his wandering hands. He’s the jock bro who won’t take no for an answer until his target blows up at him, and then she is “crazy” and unfuckable anyway.
The Joes of the world are a lot of why women don’t stay in male dominated fields or often go anywhere alone. Because where you see a macho doofus trying his best moves, I see Schroedinger’s rapist showing a heavy rapey vibe and I don’t want to take the risk of finding out the hard way.
morg
@ischemgeek “The Joes of the world are a lot of why women don’t stay in male dominated fields or often go anywhere alone.”
Which male dominated fields are you talking about? I’m a computer programmer. Every other day I read a story about how somebody is doing this or that to try to encourage more women into the field. Ok.. are they not here because they are worried about “a macho doofus trying his best moves”? Really? Have you ever actually walked into a computer science classroom? What did you see that was macho? What school were you at? Are you for real?
Maybe if the male dominated field you want to enter is “football jock”, then you might have a point. Otherwise I think you have drank too much of the kool aide and no longer see the world as it really is.
So.. I see your name implies you are in chemistry. Tell me.. do you get a lot of “Joes” there?
I’m also a computer programmer. One of my friends was one of the 2 female computer science majors at my school. On group projects, she had to constantly deal with dudes who never listened to her because she was just a girl, and obviously girls don’t know computers.
On one project, I was in the same group, and literally repeated a suggestion she’d made that had been ignored, and suddenly it was a good idea!
Computer nerds have a very different flavor of macho than jocks, but it’s fucking there, I assure you.
Inspector Hound
@morg:
I’m also a computer programmer, with decades of experience, and… I’m sorry, but you seem to be in denial.
“Have you ever actually walked into a computer science classroom? What did you see that was macho?” Yes, and I can tell you the classroom is not the workplace (although with the rise of social forums, I know damn well the classroom is no longer the haven of academia that we gave lip service to).
Since I am using a handle myself, I can hardly point to my own unsupported observations (although I’ll offer them if asked), but surely the lawsuits and the news reports didn’t just go by you without registering? The one that sticks in my memory involved Github, an otherwise well-regarded business (which to their credit did take action, although their foot-dragging remains a blot).
Lailah
Oh this is adorable. Nerds are frankly way the hell more obsessed with macho culture than jocks. It’s like figure skaters – the general population gives them short shriff on the subject, so they go all in on replicating it in their culture, just to make themselves feel better (They’ve sure as hell successfully sold that they don’t listen to women better than figure skaters do, at least).
The classroom is only barely the beginning of brogrammer culture (And from my limited experience, contains plenty of dismissal, darlin’s, and lack of concern with the concept of consent to start with) – startups, in particular, but still just business in general, enforces it as well. It’s hilariously awful – and the programmers I’ve known were mostly women who hate it (But already learned the job, so.)
Also, I really hope you’re not still concerned with ‘jocks’ at the age of 20. But at any rate, handegg jocks perform less macho-ness. They already have culture telling them they’re macho af. They don’t need to go the extra mile of hurling women out of their hobbies and work. A lot of what they do perform is still toxic af, but like…. movies lied. Jocks care more about women. Mildly. Of course, they have for more leeway for the awful among them, but…
Willoughby Chase
@morg
Long time programmer here.
Computer programmers are mostly male and mostly stone age when it comes to sexual relations.
All because they’re not jocks doesn’t mean they aren’t just as big arseholes when it comes to women.
I’m with Inspector Hound here: too many IRL instances mount up to a real problem for the computer programming industry.
In addition to what everyone else has said…you realize those girls lining up to bang Joe aren’t fuckin’ real, right? Fictional characters’ opinions don’t count. And the VERY VERY REAL women here have repeatedly fallen on the side of “would not feel safe around him.”
Unusually Angry Hippie
Yes, I’m not that stupid. But Joe is a microcosm(I think I’m using that word right) of a real type of person and those fictional women are a microcosm of the type of real women who sleep with that type of person. I know because my best friend is one of those dudes, totally politically-incorrect asshole who acts like he’s god’s gift to women, and it works like a charm because he’s unreasonably attractive.
That’s probably why I got so heated about this. I’m the Danny to his Joe, grade-school insanely close friendship and all, so I know the in’s and outs of what creates that attitude, and there’s no actual malice in it, just a massive ego fed by the praises of every woman he’s ever slept with. He can’t wrap his head around the concept of one that doesn’t want him. And, like Joe, he’s been rankled by the rare rejection and had to get beaten over the head with it a time or three, and it’s cringe-worthy and a little pathetic, but by no means deserving of physical harm.
Just so we can head off that rabbit hole, I’m not one of those people who believes consent can be negated by the consumption of alcohol prior to the sexual encounter. Because I’ve known plenty of people of both genders who enjoy drinking and fucking with equal zeal and often combine the two, and none of them are monsters. Does date-rape via alcohol occur? Yes, and it’s despicable, and I’ll at least try to step in if I see something that looks like that going down(which usually results in getting told off by the GIRL, not the guy), but it’s seems to be such a small minority of all cases that painting with such a wide brush is unwise.
Zaidyer
If you don’t mind my saying so Unusually Angry Hippie, it’s a delightful bit of synchronicity to see someone come forward declaring “I’m basically this character” and have a matching randomly generated avatar. I think I can count all of them on one hand, and right now only Sal comes to mind.
For the record, I think your interpretation of Joe is the intended one. It wouldn’t be the first time a narrow consensus formed around a character in this comic that missed the forest for the trees. Though I do think Joe is due for a wake-up call.
Zaidyer
To elaborate on my previous comment further: I’d say Joe has a very real problem of being easily confused with serious dudebro predators, and sooner or later he’s going to be informed of that fact. Much like how Joyce had to come to terms with how her innocent performances of her programming were indistinguishable from genuine bigotry.
ischemgeek
Zaidyer: I think in his current form, Joe is a dudebro predator. Maybe not as extreme of one as Ryan, but he views women as targets not as people, he actively sets out to “defeat” womens’ “defenses” and he refuses to respect any boundary which is not defended with violence. That’s pretty friggin’ predatory.
Fact is, that 6% of male college students and 13% of military recruits will admit to at least one attempted or completed rape (if you avoid using the word rape, and the source is here which links to a blog post which reviews current-at-the-time-of-the-writing research on the subject). Of those who admit to at least one, a supermajority (somewhere between 63% and 75% depending on the study) have done more than one.
In other words: Better than one in 10 male military recruits is a rapist or attempted rapist. Better than 1 in 20 male college students is one, too.
And if you read that article? Joe shows a fuckload of the same thinking as the men in those studies.
He triggers peoples “predator” warning bells because in his current form, he is one. That he (by his report) hasn’t completed a rape doesn’t mean he doesn’t behave in a predatory way. And I should note – if you use the word “rape” in those surveys, the admission drops off – because the men who do these things convince themselves it’s not rape if she doesn’t say no, scream, and beat the shit out of them (sound familiar?).
Can he be redeemed? Yes. Does he show the same sort of thinking as actual rapists? Also yes.
I think Joe’s turning point is going to be realizing that Ryan thinks of women the same way he does. And then it’ll be him trying to figure out whether that’s an association he wants to keep.
thejeff
It’s also worth noting that “those women lining up to bang Joe” haven’t actually appeared in comic either. We’ve heard his reports and we’ve seen him with Roz and Penny. That’s it.
Not that I doubt his stories, but we haven’t seen his “game” in action – other than against Joyce and Sarah who were both loudly and violently opposed. We don’t know how he reacts to weaker forms of resistance or how those he does succeed with react afterwards. Are they all happy and content with the purely casual nature of it all (once they sober up?) Were they misled about the casual nature of it all? How did he talk them into it? We don’t know.
Or do they all just jump at him immediately, like Roz & Penny apparently did?
anonymsly
Just a personal note: I read this statement as ‘We don’t know he’s not a rapist, so he definitely is’. And elsewhere in this conversation someone else said the difference between Ryan and Joe is the degree to which they are both rapists.
You said earlier that no one accuses Joe of actually being a rapist. Two separate people have done so in this single conversation.
Another note: I don’t deny Joe is periodically a creep and needs to grow the F up. He very decidedly is and does. But I would call that ‘character development’ rather than ‘redemption arc’.
Third note: I am a woman, but I am an ace one so my sexual opinions never count. Please feel free to ignore me.
thejeff
I’m not sure which statement. If it’s mine, I don’t think he’s a rapist. Mostly because I think Willis likes him and wouldn’t go anywhere near there.
I think his behavior is such that in real life I wouldn’t trust that he isn’t.
I read ischemgeek’s line about “degree” differently, so I can’t really speak that.
ischemgeek
For clarity: I am not accusing Joe of being a rapist. I AM saying women he encounters have 0 way of knowing whether he is or not, and he gives off rapey as fuck vibes, so many women he meets probably wouldn’t be comfortable being alone with him.
Joe is a creep. A relatively non-malicious creep – but still a creep
morg
Ok but you do realize that your own feelings about who someone is and what they might do are a totally separate thing from who they actually are and what they might actually do right?
morg
Have you never know someone who acted like Joe and DID have girls lining up? I had a college roomate like that and yes, they lined up, often multiple in the same night. These were real girls not comic book characters. I suspect that Willis knew some very similar people in college and his characters are based on reality.
You have never seen girls lining up for Joe, either.
He gets laid, sure, but we have not once seen how that is accomplished. Instead, all the women we see Joe try his moves on in-comic have been creeped out or told him to fuck off.
thejeff
Well, if Joe is based on reality from Willis’s college days, we might look back at Joe’s origins in Roomies. Where his behavior is even creepier and less acceptable.
thejeff
As for the “alt left”, fuck it. It barely exists, mostly as a bogeyman for the alt-right to whine about. Certainly doesn’t exist under that name.
Meanwhile the alt right just won an election based at least partly on “Muslims are terrorists”, “Mexicans are rapists and drug smugglers”, “blacks are criminals and welfare cheats stealing your hard earned money” and “trans people are invading your daughters bathrooms”.
Meanwhile, the most toxic thing about the “alt left” is that they sometimes go a little too far in calling this shit out. It’s bullshit. The whole political correctness run amok argument is a stalking horse designed to make bigots feel better and be more open about their bigotry. And you’re playing right into it.
Side note: I do absolutely agree that Joyce and Mike were far worse on that date than Joe was. Played for laughs or not. That doesn’t mean we should ignore the creepy moves he made during the date, since they weren’t in response to the punching and are the only real look we’ve had at his “game”.
Sam
I don’t want Mary to be redeemed just like I don’t want Mike to be redeemed. Sometimes bad people exist and don’t change for the better because like Mary, they believe they are right no matter what or like Mike, they enjoy stabbing you right in your insecurities until you are forced to either face them or cry in a corner. But maybe in 20 years when we’ve reached January in comic I’ll have changed my mind.
Antonio
I don’t think that mike believes he’s right no matter what – I think that he just doesn’t care about being right.
Disloyal Subject
Right. That’s how Sam described Mary, while Mike was described as just enjoying “stabbing people right in the insecurities.”
Yotomoe
The most out of a “Marydemption” would be her begrudgingly saying she won’t antagonize anyone anymore. Maybe even a peace offering to Billie or Carla (In the form of an animu doodle) and keeping to herself. I doubt she’d completely change, but I also know nobody likes feeling like everyone hates them, even if they think they’re right.
*Willisverse I should say, since this is Dumbing of Age.
Disloyal Subject
I guess Blaine could make decent fertilizer.
Geneseepaws
Probably too toxic, but if he isn’t, then probably need tempering with lime, … NO, Wait, tempering with sulphur, because he’s caustic. Caustic is a form of toxicity? Isn’t it?
I mean, we know that Robin has the potential to be a good person from her other life. She’s not like Mary or Ryan; it’d just be weird for her to never get better in this verse…
I believe there’s a chance to redeem near anyone. Whether or not someone forgives them is up to each person individually but anyone can redeem themselves.
I personally have a large capacity for forgiving people.
209 thoughts on “Rohypnol”
Reltzik
If Leslie’s so stupid, why is she smarting?
Doctor_Who
One of my favorite Animaniacs exchanges:
Ralph: Ow, that smarted me!
Yakko: I doubt it.
Jay Eff
Hey, I was thinking the same thing!
Reltzik
I probably should have watched Animaniacs.
I’m so culturally illiterate!
vlademir1
It’s never too late.
Skorpeyon
Last I saw it was on Netflix.
Roborat
Yes you should, Animaniacs and Tiny Toon Adventures are some of the best cartoons ever made, and they managed to get the best voice actors as well. I grabbed the box sets for both of them as soon as they were available, and I have come as close to wearing out DVDs as it is possible to get.
miados
everyone has a part of their brain that makes them stupid.
some people only go there from time to time and some people dont stay in that part to often
other people visit all the time and stay for days on end.
she is just visiting that part of her brain for a little. she can still be smart. just…… later
Joe Archer
I think she was talking about a different part of the neuronal network linked with hormone regulation.
AGV
Specially the left half of the brain
https://youtu.be/oNuQZPTHALI?t=6m35s
Schol-R-LEA
I’m pretty sure that the gonads aren’t located in the brain, actually. They may not be in quite the same place for men and women, but thinking with them instead of the gray matter is usually a problem for anyone.
MatsuoTanuki
What about the metaphorical “lizard brain”, i.e. the parts that deal with base desires like sex and food sometimes overriding a person’s rational, logical reasoning.
Bagge
+1
Some1
Well here’s hoping for Robindemption.
Wheelpath
Your avatar reveals exactly what you are for hoping for that, yes you are multiple.
Some1
Also hoping for Marydemption, any other characters who could conceivably be redeemed?
Reltzik
Probably not Ryan. I mean, sure, it’s possible that he sees the error of his ways, reforms, and becomes nothing but a boon to all, but redemption kinda means that the audience feels okay about him too, or at least kinda-conflicted-but-leaning-his-way, and I don’t think that’s happening.
Probably not Blaine either.
Toedad could have a redemption, I think. Carol. Those are the two big ones in my head.
Ethan’s parents. Danny’s parents. Maybe Joe?
Unusually Angry Hippie
I’m still wondering why people seem to think Joe needs redemption. He hasn’t actually done anything wrong. At all. He might have some decidedly un-feminist reasons for doing what he does, but you don’t see the all the girls happily lining up to bang him complaining about it, either. And I’m sure you would all consider those women’s decision to seek out those sexual encounters for purely lust-related reasons empowered for doing so.
So why the double standard? In fact, I’m pretty sure Joe pointed out one of the biggest double-standards of all when he was talking to Danny about why he didn’t sleep with Billy. Why is it your place, or anyone elses, to tell a woman who she should or shouldn’t have sex with, and Joe’s made it clear that he expressly doesn’t pursue women who aren’t interested.
Also, if it wasn’t a gimmick played for laughs because he’s a ‘dudebro’, Joe would have a very real and very serious legal case against both Joyce and Mike for felony assault and battery. You can’t treat the comic as ‘serious business’ when feminist issues are involved but all in good fun when your ‘acceptable targets’ are on the receiving end.
This double-standard that the alt-left has is…okay, not nearly as horrible as the alt-right’s craziness, but still pretty damn toxic. I’m prepared to recive flak for saying this, but I’m cool with it. Crucify away. I’ll load you a little more ammunition. Yes, I’m a white, suburban, middle-class privileged piece of shit.
Sure, I’m also bisexual, but it’s been made clear to me by now that I’m not a ‘real’ LGBT because of my passing privilege, as if it’s wrong to out anyone else, but bisexuals are expected out themselves to all and sundry if we want to be part of the conversation.
DISCLAIMER:Commenting Drunk, spellcheck is awesome.
Fart Captor
We’ve been over this many times now. Cerberus and Emperor Norton even did a whole podcast on the subject.
The short of it is, while Joe may *technically* think consent is important, his standards for both what constitutes consent and what requires consent suck.
In my mind, the plainest example is when Joe hit on Sarah, and she to literally told him to fuck off. Not long afterwards, he was trying it again. He accepts “no”, but he forces women to repeat it, over and over, and when he hears it, he acts like they were being unreasonable for getting upset about his persistent badgering.
morg
By that logic if I ask you for beer money again and again and you keep saying no but finally you give in just to shut me up I am guilty of theft. That’s stupid. Should you be able to send the police after me?
A person who keeps asking again may be annoying, they may even be creepy and it is ok for you to feel that way about them. It may even be so bad that you decide to cut them out of your life and that is cool too because who you spend time with is your business. Lonliness is the natural price to pay for beeing an annoying creep.
That’s all it is though, an annoying person you are better off not hanging out with. A person who violates consent is a rapist. A mere annoying person does not deserve that label likewise an actual rapist does not deserve to have the meaning of their label reduced by throwing in mere annoying people who are NOT guilty of rape.
It’s kind of like finding out your neighbor is on the sex offender list. And then you find out that people can get on that list by relatively harmless things like peeing in an alley outside a bar or something like that. Maybe your neighbor is only guilty of something like that which they did one drunk night that they regret and will never repeat. Or maybe they rape children for kicks. See, widening your definitions of offenses to include everyone who does something you don’t like kind of destroys the meaning and purpose of words doesn’t it?
thejeff
You’re right. If Joe did that he would not be a rapist. He’d be a creep and an asshole and I’d avoid him. If that was the behavior I observed in public (or heard of from other women), it would also raise sufficient warning flags that I’d would be wary as hell of being alone with him if I was a woman and would warn others of my suspicions.
Which is all about what people are saying about Joe here. What we’ve seen of his behavior is creepy and concerning. I don’t recall accusations that he’s actually raped anyone.
morg
@theJeff – “I was commenting on the statement that “his standards for both what constitutes consent and what requires consent suck.”
That implies that what he considers consent isn’t really consent and logically that would make it rape.
So, what would you be warning others about? That he will nag them for sex? That’s pretty fair. That you think he might go beyond that? it’s all up to Willis of course but i don’t get the impression at all that he would.
At what point does a warning about what somebody ‘might’ do change from a ‘public service anouncement’ to the spreading of hurtful rumors? That’s a pretty vicious thing to have people thinking about you. There is a fine line there one should be careful of crossing. This is why in the legal system we have the concept of innocent until proven guilty. We do not have this in our everyday social interactions though. You should be careful what you say about people because you can really cause a lot of damage.
Fart Captor
@morg:
What he considers consent is consent, but just barely. Badgering someone until they give in isn’t as bad as forcing yourself on them, but it’s still shitty behavior.
In general, he just pursues sex without regard for what the woman wants. From the minute he met Joyce, it was painfully obvious that she was looking for a long-term relationship, not casual sex. Joe feigned interest in a relationship, and decided she needed to be “broken in”. He actually thought manipulating her into having sex with him, going against deeply held beliefs, would have been good for her.
Joe may not be a rapist, but the margin by which he is not is uncomfortably narrow.
thejeff
About what he might do. About where he might stop.
Yeah, warning people “I don’t trust this creepy guy, be careful about being along with him” might “cause a lot of damage”, though I’m not sure exactly what.
I’d feel an awful lot worse if someone I could have warned did get raped by the guy I thought was creepy.
Should we never caution anyone or even be careful ourselves until and unless someone’s been proven guilty in a court of law? (And of course once they’ve served their time, there’s no reason to not trust them again and having committed one crime doesn’t mean they’d commit others.)
Honestly, from the meta point of view, knowing Willis, Joe isn’t going to rape anyone. He’s not even going to actually get laid in any situation where he did push the line and got uncomfortably close to rapey. But that’s meta stuff that I wouldn’t be able to rely on dealing with a real world Joe. And the behavior we’ve seen from Joe would be raising huge red flags in the real world. Not proof of anything, but all the signs.
Which is why, as I’ve said before, I’d really like to see more of Joe’s “game”. I’d like to see him trying to seduce someone and see how he handles the resistance. See when and if he backs off with the screaming at him or punches and threats of baseball bats. I’d like to see more of what Joe’s idea of consent looks like in practice, rather than just in theory.
Yotomoe
Except when Joe found out how earnestly Joyce wanted to be in a relationship he stopped trying to have sex with her and actually tried to have a real date. His desire to “break her in” is only coming with the assumption that she’s the “represses christian girl who’s looking for an excuse to let loose”. He doesn’t continue trying to coax her into sex beyond the point she shows up to the date. In fact he feels inadequate in his attire and tries to change.
Joe is very pushy sure, but not more pushy than say…Billie or Ruth. Billie who literally kissed Danny suddenly and started disrobing on top of him without a seconds warning, or Ruth the girl who started making out with the girl she was physically abusing. Had Joe done EITHER of these things (regardless of stopping when consent was pushed away) everyone here would have a much lower opinion of him. But he doesn’t. He’s pushy and persistent but he does back off when he feels he can’t get further with someone.
Any supposed rape vibes to Joe is due to the natural fear of men by women because men are imposing and strong and they feel they couldn’t do anything if he DID start raping them.But as far as flirting goes, Joe tries to get with girls and insists on it, because he loves having sex, and it takes two to tango. It might seem disrespectful to keep pushing after one attempt, but I’ll be honest, a LOT of relationships or hookups don’t just…immediately click.
“Sex?”
“Yes”
“And then they had sex together forever”
And even in that above situation, one or maybe both of them could theoretically see it as a mistake in hindsight or regret it. I think a lot of people who don’t take the first “no” as a hard stop probably don’t view as a very traumatic or life affirming event like a lot of people seem to.
Then again I’m not a woman so anything I say is somewhat irrelevant.
Also a virgin.
Fart Captor
Yomatoe, those “supposed rape vibes” never seem to emanate from other male characters, like Walky, Danny, Ethan, or Jacob.
Joe’s behavior is absolutely the reason why. Ethan and Jacob are just as tall, just as masculine, and just as physically intimidating as Joe would be, but we’ve never seen a single instance where either of them made a woman feel unsafe or even uncomfortable.
There’s also a huge difference between not immediately giving up completely at the first “no”, and soldiering on even after being told “fuck off”.
And Ruth really isn’t a strengthening your point. I like her and Billie, but she was incredibly lucky that Billie didn’t file charges against her, because that forced kiss was fucked up. She assaulted Billie there, physically, then sexually. She was just fortunate in that Billie ended up forgiving her for it. That does not by any means make it okay.
BBCC
“By that logic if I ask you for beer money again and again and you keep saying no but finally you give in just to shut me up I am guilty of theft. That’s stupid. Should you be able to send the police after me?”
No, but you would have pressured someone into giving you money which is not illegal. Only with sex, pressuring someone into giving it up IS rape via coercion. Pressuring someone via repeated insistence counts. Sex requires active (or enthusiastic) consent. Just ‘the absence of a no’ isn’t good enough. It requires a freely given (aka un-coerced, sober, non manipulated and informed) yes.
Joe continuously trying to pressure people into bed is skeevy as fuck and if he succeeded, yes, he’d be a rapist. He probably wouldn’t go to jail, no, but that’s hardly the authority on what does or does not make someone a rapist since most rapists don’t ever get convicted (either due to lack of report, lack of evidence, etc). Sex crime and abuse in general have abysmal conviction rates because they’re difficult to prove – which is also why legal definitions don’t tend to cover everything sociological definitions of rape and abuse do, because those are much trickier to prove to court standards.
Yotomoe
Fair enough. As a counterpoint though, Ethan is gay and the closest to “flirting” he’s ever gotten is just being shy around Danny.
Jacob hasn’t really been seen being flirty with anyone. Even with his own girlfriend he’s been nothing but doting. Danny’s also taken a very submissive route to most of his relationship, considering he’s dating a super hero. He rarely “takes the lead”. Walky is probably the only guy who you could say does and he’s also really scrawny and tiny. If Joe acted more like Walky it’d also be kinda suspect. (Like throwing a toy at a girl) But that’s because he’s a big guy.
I feel like Joe’s Bravado can make people uncomfortable for sure, but I think it kinda underlies how scary a rape really is. If someone carries a gun around all the time I might be nervous around them, but I wouldn’t call them a murderer, until they murder someone.
thejeff
Yotomoe: It’s not just or even mostly Joe’s actual flirting. He said he was going to fix Joyce with his penis. He posts a public “todo list” rating girls he knows. He talks about alcohol helping with threesomes.
He’s creepy as hell and it’s not just his bravado or that he flirts or him being a big guy. He says the right things about consent, but he seems to actually just view it as an obstacle to overcome.
And to jump back a post or two: He very definitely does not stop trying with Joyce and just have a normal date. He’s still on his game, it’s just a slightly longer game. He tries to bribe Mike to get out of the way. He keeps circling the conversation back to sex. He keeps working it until the punching gets too much.
Mind you, Joyce & Mike were far worse during that date. There’s no excuse for it. I likely would have begged off when she announced the chaperone and certainly when the punching was mentioned. OTOH, had I gone on the date I would have been trying to get to know her, not just focusing on sex.
Alexsam
Fart Captor’s statement that Joe tries to hit on Sarah again after she tells him no is wrong. I looked throughout the tags for the comic and it doesn’t happen.
Greenygal
No, you’re right, after she explicitly tells him she’s not interested in him he doesn’t hit on her again.
On the other hand, by that point she had already told him that she hated him and he should fuck off. His reaction, albeit not to her face, was that she would be great in the sack, and the next time they met he followed up by flirting with her even though she looked disgusted. So Joe will accept a direct “no”, but he will ignore any other signals, no matter how vehement.
Fart Captor
It happened right here:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/chaps/
Fart Captor
Joe totally accepts “no”. If you repeat it several times, and get angry about it.
At that point, he declares that you’re either crazy or a lesbian, and finally gives up.
Reltzik
I kinda view Joe as…. borderline in all the cases you mention. He’s not really crossing serious boundaries, but he’s edging near them in ways that make people uncomfortable and pressured. Not someone you revile as despicable, but also not someone you want near you.
I don’t think that’s why Joe might need redeeming, though. My problem with him is mostly how terrible of a friend he’s been to Danny.
(And yeah, what Mike did was definitely A&B. Questionable how liable Joyce is, but there would be a case there. I think it got a pass less because of Joe being a designated bad-guy and more because Mike never faces consequences for his actions. Different conversation entirely.)
Reltzik
(Wait, Joyce joined in at one point. Yup, definitely liable then.)
ischemgeek
“Not really crossing serious boundaries”? Come the hell on. You realize sexual harassment is a thing, right?
Joe views consent as a legal technicality, not as aomething he, personally, needs to be concerned with on a moral level. He is the kind of guy who wouldn’t pull a Ryan because he might get caught… but he will badger women to see if he can coerce consent though harassment, he is not above using alcohol to get women to agree to stuff they wouldn’t while sober (alcohol is the most common date rape drug btw), and he has shown repeatedly that he views any boundaries not enforced with violence or the threat thereof as a challenge.
The difference between Joe and Ryan is one of degree not of kind.
ischemgeek
Joe is the kind of creepy-ass sexual harasser who pretends to be European to coerce strange North American women into kissing him. He’s the business man who uses his position to coerce junior women into accepting his wandering hands. He’s the jock bro who won’t take no for an answer until his target blows up at him, and then she is “crazy” and unfuckable anyway.
The Joes of the world are a lot of why women don’t stay in male dominated fields or often go anywhere alone. Because where you see a macho doofus trying his best moves, I see Schroedinger’s rapist showing a heavy rapey vibe and I don’t want to take the risk of finding out the hard way.
morg
@ischemgeek “The Joes of the world are a lot of why women don’t stay in male dominated fields or often go anywhere alone.”
Which male dominated fields are you talking about? I’m a computer programmer. Every other day I read a story about how somebody is doing this or that to try to encourage more women into the field. Ok.. are they not here because they are worried about “a macho doofus trying his best moves”? Really? Have you ever actually walked into a computer science classroom? What did you see that was macho? What school were you at? Are you for real?
Maybe if the male dominated field you want to enter is “football jock”, then you might have a point. Otherwise I think you have drank too much of the kool aide and no longer see the world as it really is.
So.. I see your name implies you are in chemistry. Tell me.. do you get a lot of “Joes” there?
Fart Captor
@morg:
I’m also a computer programmer. One of my friends was one of the 2 female computer science majors at my school. On group projects, she had to constantly deal with dudes who never listened to her because she was just a girl, and obviously girls don’t know computers.
On one project, I was in the same group, and literally repeated a suggestion she’d made that had been ignored, and suddenly it was a good idea!
Computer nerds have a very different flavor of macho than jocks, but it’s fucking there, I assure you.
Inspector Hound
@morg:
I’m also a computer programmer, with decades of experience, and… I’m sorry, but you seem to be in denial.
“Have you ever actually walked into a computer science classroom? What did you see that was macho?” Yes, and I can tell you the classroom is not the workplace (although with the rise of social forums, I know damn well the classroom is no longer the haven of academia that we gave lip service to).
Since I am using a handle myself, I can hardly point to my own unsupported observations (although I’ll offer them if asked), but surely the lawsuits and the news reports didn’t just go by you without registering? The one that sticks in my memory involved Github, an otherwise well-regarded business (which to their credit did take action, although their foot-dragging remains a blot).
Lailah
Oh this is adorable. Nerds are frankly way the hell more obsessed with macho culture than jocks. It’s like figure skaters – the general population gives them short shriff on the subject, so they go all in on replicating it in their culture, just to make themselves feel better (They’ve sure as hell successfully sold that they don’t listen to women better than figure skaters do, at least).
The classroom is only barely the beginning of brogrammer culture (And from my limited experience, contains plenty of dismissal, darlin’s, and lack of concern with the concept of consent to start with) – startups, in particular, but still just business in general, enforces it as well. It’s hilariously awful – and the programmers I’ve known were mostly women who hate it (But already learned the job, so.)
Also, I really hope you’re not still concerned with ‘jocks’ at the age of 20. But at any rate, handegg jocks perform less macho-ness. They already have culture telling them they’re macho af. They don’t need to go the extra mile of hurling women out of their hobbies and work. A lot of what they do perform is still toxic af, but like…. movies lied. Jocks care more about women. Mildly. Of course, they have for more leeway for the awful among them, but…
Willoughby Chase
@morg
Long time programmer here.
Computer programmers are mostly male and mostly stone age when it comes to sexual relations.
All because they’re not jocks doesn’t mean they aren’t just as big arseholes when it comes to women.
I’m with Inspector Hound here: too many IRL instances mount up to a real problem for the computer programming industry.
Shiro
In addition to what everyone else has said…you realize those girls lining up to bang Joe aren’t fuckin’ real, right? Fictional characters’ opinions don’t count. And the VERY VERY REAL women here have repeatedly fallen on the side of “would not feel safe around him.”
Unusually Angry Hippie
Yes, I’m not that stupid. But Joe is a microcosm(I think I’m using that word right) of a real type of person and those fictional women are a microcosm of the type of real women who sleep with that type of person. I know because my best friend is one of those dudes, totally politically-incorrect asshole who acts like he’s god’s gift to women, and it works like a charm because he’s unreasonably attractive.
That’s probably why I got so heated about this. I’m the Danny to his Joe, grade-school insanely close friendship and all, so I know the in’s and outs of what creates that attitude, and there’s no actual malice in it, just a massive ego fed by the praises of every woman he’s ever slept with. He can’t wrap his head around the concept of one that doesn’t want him. And, like Joe, he’s been rankled by the rare rejection and had to get beaten over the head with it a time or three, and it’s cringe-worthy and a little pathetic, but by no means deserving of physical harm.
Just so we can head off that rabbit hole, I’m not one of those people who believes consent can be negated by the consumption of alcohol prior to the sexual encounter. Because I’ve known plenty of people of both genders who enjoy drinking and fucking with equal zeal and often combine the two, and none of them are monsters. Does date-rape via alcohol occur? Yes, and it’s despicable, and I’ll at least try to step in if I see something that looks like that going down(which usually results in getting told off by the GIRL, not the guy), but it’s seems to be such a small minority of all cases that painting with such a wide brush is unwise.
Zaidyer
If you don’t mind my saying so Unusually Angry Hippie, it’s a delightful bit of synchronicity to see someone come forward declaring “I’m basically this character” and have a matching randomly generated avatar. I think I can count all of them on one hand, and right now only Sal comes to mind.
For the record, I think your interpretation of Joe is the intended one. It wouldn’t be the first time a narrow consensus formed around a character in this comic that missed the forest for the trees. Though I do think Joe is due for a wake-up call.
Zaidyer
To elaborate on my previous comment further: I’d say Joe has a very real problem of being easily confused with serious dudebro predators, and sooner or later he’s going to be informed of that fact. Much like how Joyce had to come to terms with how her innocent performances of her programming were indistinguishable from genuine bigotry.
ischemgeek
Zaidyer: I think in his current form, Joe is a dudebro predator. Maybe not as extreme of one as Ryan, but he views women as targets not as people, he actively sets out to “defeat” womens’ “defenses” and he refuses to respect any boundary which is not defended with violence. That’s pretty friggin’ predatory.
Fact is, that 6% of male college students and 13% of military recruits will admit to at least one attempted or completed rape (if you avoid using the word rape, and the source is here which links to a blog post which reviews current-at-the-time-of-the-writing research on the subject). Of those who admit to at least one, a supermajority (somewhere between 63% and 75% depending on the study) have done more than one.
In other words: Better than one in 10 male military recruits is a rapist or attempted rapist. Better than 1 in 20 male college students is one, too.
And if you read that article? Joe shows a fuckload of the same thinking as the men in those studies.
He triggers peoples “predator” warning bells because in his current form, he is one. That he (by his report) hasn’t completed a rape doesn’t mean he doesn’t behave in a predatory way. And I should note – if you use the word “rape” in those surveys, the admission drops off – because the men who do these things convince themselves it’s not rape if she doesn’t say no, scream, and beat the shit out of them (sound familiar?).
Can he be redeemed? Yes. Does he show the same sort of thinking as actual rapists? Also yes.
I think Joe’s turning point is going to be realizing that Ryan thinks of women the same way he does. And then it’ll be him trying to figure out whether that’s an association he wants to keep.
thejeff
It’s also worth noting that “those women lining up to bang Joe” haven’t actually appeared in comic either. We’ve heard his reports and we’ve seen him with Roz and Penny. That’s it.
Not that I doubt his stories, but we haven’t seen his “game” in action – other than against Joyce and Sarah who were both loudly and violently opposed. We don’t know how he reacts to weaker forms of resistance or how those he does succeed with react afterwards. Are they all happy and content with the purely casual nature of it all (once they sober up?) Were they misled about the casual nature of it all? How did he talk them into it? We don’t know.
Or do they all just jump at him immediately, like Roz & Penny apparently did?
anonymsly
Just a personal note: I read this statement as ‘We don’t know he’s not a rapist, so he definitely is’. And elsewhere in this conversation someone else said the difference between Ryan and Joe is the degree to which they are both rapists.
You said earlier that no one accuses Joe of actually being a rapist. Two separate people have done so in this single conversation.
Another note: I don’t deny Joe is periodically a creep and needs to grow the F up. He very decidedly is and does. But I would call that ‘character development’ rather than ‘redemption arc’.
Third note: I am a woman, but I am an ace one so my sexual opinions never count. Please feel free to ignore me.
thejeff
I’m not sure which statement. If it’s mine, I don’t think he’s a rapist. Mostly because I think Willis likes him and wouldn’t go anywhere near there.
I think his behavior is such that in real life I wouldn’t trust that he isn’t.
I read ischemgeek’s line about “degree” differently, so I can’t really speak that.
ischemgeek
For clarity: I am not accusing Joe of being a rapist. I AM saying women he encounters have 0 way of knowing whether he is or not, and he gives off rapey as fuck vibes, so many women he meets probably wouldn’t be comfortable being alone with him.
Joe is a creep. A relatively non-malicious creep – but still a creep
morg
Ok but you do realize that your own feelings about who someone is and what they might do are a totally separate thing from who they actually are and what they might actually do right?
morg
Have you never know someone who acted like Joe and DID have girls lining up? I had a college roomate like that and yes, they lined up, often multiple in the same night. These were real girls not comic book characters. I suspect that Willis knew some very similar people in college and his characters are based on reality.
Fart Captor
You have never seen girls lining up for Joe, either.
He gets laid, sure, but we have not once seen how that is accomplished. Instead, all the women we see Joe try his moves on in-comic have been creeped out or told him to fuck off.
thejeff
Well, if Joe is based on reality from Willis’s college days, we might look back at Joe’s origins in Roomies. Where his behavior is even creepier and less acceptable.
thejeff
As for the “alt left”, fuck it. It barely exists, mostly as a bogeyman for the alt-right to whine about. Certainly doesn’t exist under that name.
Meanwhile the alt right just won an election based at least partly on “Muslims are terrorists”, “Mexicans are rapists and drug smugglers”, “blacks are criminals and welfare cheats stealing your hard earned money” and “trans people are invading your daughters bathrooms”.
Meanwhile, the most toxic thing about the “alt left” is that they sometimes go a little too far in calling this shit out. It’s bullshit. The whole political correctness run amok argument is a stalking horse designed to make bigots feel better and be more open about their bigotry. And you’re playing right into it.
Side note: I do absolutely agree that Joyce and Mike were far worse on that date than Joe was. Played for laughs or not. That doesn’t mean we should ignore the creepy moves he made during the date, since they weren’t in response to the punching and are the only real look we’ve had at his “game”.
Sam
I don’t want Mary to be redeemed just like I don’t want Mike to be redeemed. Sometimes bad people exist and don’t change for the better because like Mary, they believe they are right no matter what or like Mike, they enjoy stabbing you right in your insecurities until you are forced to either face them or cry in a corner. But maybe in 20 years when we’ve reached January in comic I’ll have changed my mind.
Antonio
I don’t think that mike believes he’s right no matter what – I think that he just doesn’t care about being right.
Disloyal Subject
Right. That’s how Sam described Mary, while Mike was described as just enjoying “stabbing people right in the insecurities.”
Yotomoe
The most out of a “Marydemption” would be her begrudgingly saying she won’t antagonize anyone anymore. Maybe even a peace offering to Billie or Carla (In the form of an animu doodle) and keeping to herself. I doubt she’d completely change, but I also know nobody likes feeling like everyone hates them, even if they think they’re right.
Jackson
Marydemption? Don’t hold your breath, kid.
BBCC
Eh, weirder things have happened in Walkyverse.
BBCC
*Willisverse I should say, since this is Dumbing of Age.
Disloyal Subject
I guess Blaine could make decent fertilizer.
Geneseepaws
Probably too toxic, but if he isn’t, then probably need tempering with lime, … NO, Wait, tempering with sulphur, because he’s caustic. Caustic is a form of toxicity? Isn’t it?
Adept Arcanist
I mean, we know that Robin has the potential to be a good person from her other life. She’s not like Mary or Ryan; it’d just be weird for her to never get better in this verse…
Yotomoe
I believe there’s a chance to redeem near anyone. Whether or not someone forgives them is up to each person individually but anyone can redeem themselves.
I personally have a large capacity for forgiving people.
thejeff
Anyone can. Redemption is always possible. Not everyone will however.
AnvilPro
It’s not your fault Leslie, it’s… um… Aide’s fault?
spriteless
But now Leslie might be able to help…
Smiling Cat
I blame the increasingly divisive tone of political debate that has created a “with us or against us” and “enemy of my enemy is my friend” atmosphere.
Dana
I blame Willis. Damn you, Willis!
shadowcell
i’m still a little offended that his name isn’t Aiden
Reltzik
You forget his name’s not Aide any more.
It’s not your fault, Leslie, it’s all You’s fault! …. no, not your fault, you’s fau-… I’M NOT A MAFIOSO OKAY???
foamy
You’s on first.
MeHael
Naturally