349

Shallow
Posted on August 15, 2017 by David M Willis

349 thoughts on “Shallow”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    ouch

    1. Sambo

      Yeah, the hovertext pun hurt me too

      1. King Daniel

        What’s the joke, I don’t get i–DAMN YOU WILLIS

        1. ditrysia

          (1) Everything you do = matters
          (2) E= mc^2
          Replace (1) in (2)

        2. Iforgetwhatiputhere

          E=((Everything you do)/atters)c^2 doesn’t make much sense, please define your equations better.

        3. ditrysia

          Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough.
          E stands for energy there. It’s a well-known physics equation.

          From Brittanica:
          E = mc2, equation in German-born physicist Albert Einstein’s theory of special relativity that expresses the fact that mass and energy are the same physical entity and can be changed into each other. In the equation, the increased relativistic mass (m) of a body times the speed of light squared (c2) is equal to the kinetic energy (E) of that body.

          So energy equals mass (is matter) times speed of light squared but matter equals everything you do, so everything you do times speed of light squared equals energy.

          I hope this is clearer, I’m not a physicist.

        4. ditrysia

          I don’t think the end equation is meant to have sense btw, it’s just a pun intended the word “matter”

        5. peep

          Just solve for c, and it will all make sense.

          c = sqrt(atters/(vrything you do))

      2. Orion Fury

        That was a great pun, why’d it hurt?

  2. Matthew Traver

    This doesn’t look like it’s going well.

    1. Matthew Traver

      Also it seems I wasn’t the only one refreshing while waiting for the new strip.

      1. DeWitt

        Oh, no, you definitely weren’t the only one. I’ve been refreshing like a ticket buyer since 9 on the dot.

      2. GreatContagion

        I was confused because the clock was showing 10:02 here, and the page wasn’t doing anything on refresh. Should have known that when I closed it, opened it anew, and there it would be with a comment from 10:01.

    2. jeffepp

      If resulting in hugs is not going well, then yes. We are about to have the feels.

      1. DeWitt

        That’s where I’m tentatively placing my bet.

        Joe doesn’t seem to know about Ryan, yet. Maybe he will in a strip or two . . . ?

  3. miados

    im torn between wanting a ranting joyce and a joyce slap to joe.

    1. RandomDude

      WhyNotBoth.gif

      1. miados

        yeah but a good rant will need a full comic not one thats half full with a cool slap. maybe if its a half hearted smack.

        1. Weyland

          I mean, if willis is feeling particularly generous, we could get Two, count em TWO full strips, one of a good rant, and the next of an epic slap! Imagine, an entire strip of Joyce slapping Joe.

        2. tyersome

          I think, especially based on the previous few strips, that Joyce is going to destroy him, but it won’t be by attacking him …

          With any luck the rebuilt Joe will be less … cringe inducing …

        3. Puckish Rogue

          Well no that’s not good, as satisfying as it would be violence isn’t always the answer (especially not in this case)

        4. miados

          plus with the difference in builds unless joyce hits a vulnerable area I don’t think it would do more than sting.

        5. Kamino Neko

          Joe is nothing compared to Ross…and while he messed up Joyce’s wrist with his chin, he still got the worst of it.

        6. miados

          yes but she was enraged then now i think she is just mad. plus saving a friends life adds an attack multiplier of seven

        7. thejeff

          But…but guys can’t actually get hurt by a girl.

        8. merbrat

          (insert gif of Tyrion slapping Jeoffrey, repeatedly)

      2. Needfuldoer

        First one, then the other.

        1. RandomDude

          Then the other again to drive the point home.

        2. FacelessDeviant

          Show them you care by physically assaulting them sounds pretty bad.

    2. ugh

      You want Joyce to be abusive because of a theological difference? Joe hasn’t said anything worth being physically struck for, and just because Joyce is tiny and female and Joe is large and male doesn’t make that funny.

      If the gender roles were swapped and Joe slapped Joyce for rolling her eyes at him you’d be outraged.

      1. Liliet

        Abusive implies a repeating pattern of behavior with several telling characteristics that, IMPORTANTLY, are not here. “Violent” is the word here. “You want Joyce to be violent because of a theological difference?”

        Also, the difference in treatment here is not just because of a double standard based on gender, but also because of the actual objective difference in, like, size. Joe hitting Joyce could send her flying across the room without trying hard. Joyce hitting Joe can only do anything worse than bloody his nose with A LOT of luck, good aim or rage.

        If this were a Sal/Danny situation, I assure you, the attitudes would be a lot more equitable.

        1. Sunny

          I dunno… I still don’t think it’s ok to hit people just because you’re smaller than them.

        2. Liliet

          I didn’t say Joyce being violent would have been okay. I said violent is not the same as abusive. I know, my own fault of phrasing things badly >_>

        3. FacelessDeviant

          Even a smaller person could seriously injure someone. The face/head is a pretty sensitive area.

          And violence, except self-defence, is never okay, regardless of size or gender or any other factor.

        4. Delicious Taffy

          I can think of at least 3 situations in which violence is perfectly acceptable, other than self-defense. Let’s not perpetuate that sort of nonsense.

        5. FacelessDeviant

          First of all. Rude.

          Second, what would those three situations be then?

        6. DeWitt

          Speaking as someone who watched my much smaller mother (under 5 feet) terrorize other people well over half a foot taller than her, I’d say it can be unnerving to watch someone hit another person, no matter how “little damage” they do.

          The amount of people wanting Joyce to slap him unnerves me slightly, perhaps in part to my own experiences… but I’d like to know what those reasons besides self-defense are.

        7. Liliet

          Defense of someone else?
          That’s it from me…

          (And no, I don’t think Joyce hitting Joe would have been right. But it irks me much less than the idea of violent = abusive)

        8. thejeff

          Well, there is a pattern. She has hit him before – on their date.

    3. Jeremy

      Yeah, because self-righteous physical assault is exactly what Joyce’s character arc needs? I get this is a comic, but it’s kind of about learning to mature in an adult world.

  4. GreatContagion

    “Yes, but that’s not what I was going to say!”

  5. King Daniel

    She’s grabbing her wrist. Her injured wrist.

    I do not forsee this ending with hugs and puppies.

    1. LeslieBean4Shizzle

      Is she? I thought she was grabbing HIS wrist with her uninjured wrist? Cause of the difference in hand-sizes.

      1. LeslieBean4Shizzle

        Yeah, in panel 1, Joyce has the donut in her right hand. She does not finish eating it, so either she dropped it on the floor, or she’s grabbing Joe’s hand in the last panel. So yeah, I am 90% sure that’s Joe’s hand she’s grabbing.

        1. Dean

          No, it’s her own hand. If it was Joe’s hand, the skin tone would be darker.

        2. Kamino Neko

          Also, there’d be a scream of pain as Joyce snapped Joe’s forearm, which would be needed to get his hand in that position, relative to her.

        3. King Daniel

          The palm is facing inward, toward herself, so unless she’s twisting Joe’s arm in a really painful fashion, it’s her own wrist she’s grabbing. The donut looks mostly eaten in panel one, so presumably she finished it off-panel.

        4. Ophidiophile

          If that’s Joe’s hand, he’s got really tiny hands for someone his size.

        5. Kamino Neko

          Also, in addition to the technical aspects that Dean, Daniel, and I pointed out – this grasping her wrist thing is a common habit of Joyce’s, of late.

          Randomly grabbing other people isn’t.

        6. thejeff

          Yeah, that’s very definitely her “I’m thinking of my trauma” wrist holding pose.

        7. Jason

          Yyyup. It’s a tell that she’s in a bad place, basically.

        8. StClair

          let’s hope we don’t get all the way to red panels.

  6. Doctor_Who

    I think Joe’s about to get a harsh lesson.

    1. IllogicalBobcat

      A harsh lesson in Joyce still frickin’ crazy? That was the lesson last time she punched him.

  7. Enya

    Oh. Ow.

  8. Tekkactus

    I still can’t tell if it’s supposed to be fucked up that I ship this.

    1. Enya

      I think it will be in the next 1-2 comics.

    2. Claire

      Still wish there was an up vote button!
      Cuz yeah…..last strip I was like “hm!” But not I am like “eh…maybe not”

    3. GreatContagion

      I feel like if Joe and Joyce ever did hook up, long-term, it would be a typical showing of Joe in the role of the tamed beast, calmed from his days on the metaphorical “hunt,” and Joyce as the antiquated angel in the house. Unless they both had a lot of change before that happened, I don’t /get/ the impression that’s how the comic is playing out? Like, there is so much drama at every turn that such a cliché pair would be out of place.

      But who knows? Maybe they will have so much change, or even if not, they could be characters who end up having shown a lot of persistance through idealogy shaking events and settle into some comfortable dynamic against the grain of everyone else’s chaos.

    4. Chris

      I’d prefer to ship this pairing, as well. As shallow as Joe is, he reminds me a lot of Riker from Star Trek. He only acts on complete consent from whoever he’s with, and the fact he’s embarrassed about the list shows he has a sense of shame, at least. Guilt, maybe, in time.

      Also, as repressed and secretly boy crazy as Joyce is, she knows Joe will never manipulate her. He’s too obvious for that to happen. That goes back to his overtly consenting nature.

      1. ugh

        I mean, he “only acts on complete consent” except where it pertains to sexually harassing any woman he feels needs to be ‘fixed’ with his penis.

        How many times does a girl have to say “I am not interested. Stop talking to me in this manner.” and have Joe continue to press the issue before this nonsense about his total respect for consent disappears?

        If all you mean is “at least he doesn’t rape people” then I don’t think that’s a point in his favour since that is the bare flicking minimum for being a person in our society, not something he gets a cookie for.

        1. thejeff

          Pretty much this. We’ve also got some instances of him putting his hands on girls without their “complete consent”.
          The revelation that he was lying about the threesomes and probably getting a lot less sex than he was pretending makes it far less likely he’s actually crossed a line – with alcohol or manipulation, but that’s still not much above that bare minimum.

          BTW, your user name goes so well with this comment. 🙂

      2. thejeff

        If he’s too obvious about his attempts, it’s not because of “his overtly consenting nature” or some aversion to manipulation, but because his whole shtick is performance. He can’t be subtle about manipulation, even to get what he wants, because playing the role of the great stud is more important.

    5. LeslieBean4Shizzle

      Well, my current feeling on this is “now kiss!”

      I don’t necessarily ship them long-term, but I think they could both help one another work some shit out short-term.

      1. DeWitt

        … Same, to some extent.

        If it ends up like it did in Walkyverse (but different, because iirc the writing is treading different ground in DoA), they could be good friends.

    6. Jason

      I can see them really, truly being good for each other- romantically or platonically. But I can definitely see the foundations for a healthy relationship forming, albeit one that needs to take a LONG time to develop.

  9. Proudly Closeted Trans Girl

    Joe. Why. You did so good thirty seconds ago.

    1. Chris Phoenix

      He’s being more deeply honest now. I don’t think he’s doing bad. Joyce is sad at seeing what he carries around under the facade. That doesn’t mean Joe is being mean – it means he’s opening up.

      1. Betty Anne

        ^This. All these comments condemning Joe about this are irritating me. He’s finally opening his shell a little bit to someone. He needs a goddamn sit-down talk that’s not in public, not a slap or a condemnation.

      2. Unusually Angry Hippie

        While my outlets are different than his, I do understand the actual point Joe is trying to make here. Treating everyone, including yourself, as actors or illusions or figments of your imagination, not becoming too attached or too concerned, can be a great way to cope with the general shittiness of the world. I’m guessing Joe is still suffering a lot from the aftershocks of his parents divorce, which convinced him that love is a lie and that caring too much is just a good way to get hurt.

  10. Miguel

    They would be great together

    1. Sporky

      No

    2. Fart Captor

      Not unless Joe gets some VERY important things into his fat head

      1. thejeff

        Even then.

        I could see Joe, with a bit more character growth, in a decent relationship with someone, but not a non-sexual one. And I can’t see Joyce in a healthy sexual relationship any time soon.

    3. 3oranges

      great, adj.
      3. unusual or considerable in degree, power, intensity, etc.:
      great pain

    4. Ophidiophile

      Until Mike beats him to death.

  11. Stephen Bierce

    *cues up some Sammy-era Van Halen*

  12. Cheshrin

    “Do you realize how much worse it would be if anyone actually cared about me?”

    Uh, Joe? You, uh, you doing okay? You got some problems you wanna share with the class?

    1. Socks

      Yeah I know the comic left us with Joyce and so that’s the main takeaway, but, like, dang. Like, oh, Joe, buddy, no, that’s a messed-up thing to drop casually mid-strip, like that wasn’t even a dramatic moment, that was just a part of the larger thing he was saying. Jeeeez, Joe. That’s some next-level “having issues”, there.

      1. DeWitt

        Yeah, that’s… oof. That’s a lot to be coming from a college freshman. It’s a lot to be coming from anybody, really.

        “If anyone actually cared about me” — does that include his family and Danny? Because if so, yikes. Yikes, yikes, yikes.

        1. Betty Anne

          We know what he thinks of his parents, and I suspect he views Danny as constantly trying to change him, which is NOT what most young people – especially young men – who are struggling want. They want stability, not more change. Joe made his stability by being known as a flake.

        2. Rectilinear Propagation

          YIKES

          Also hating his dad again because why does your child feel like this?!

    2. ValdVin

      I zeroed in on that as well.

      Does his dad even come in a close second to Danny in the “caring about Joe” event?

      1. StClair

        ha ha, of course not!

    3. amanda

      Yeah, I felt a deep “oof” in my heart when I read that. This kid has no sense of worthiness, as Brene Brown describes it.

      1. StClair

        same.

  13. Mr. Random

    I wonder if she cares about him?
    … NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

    1. WarDragon

      I feel like Joyce cares about everyone.

      1. Leorale

        Definitely. Joyce and I have that one in common, probably lots of other commenters here, too.

      2. ditrysia

        Yeah agreed, she does.

  14. Sporky

    This honestly applies to most DoA strips, but still: This won’t end well.

    1. Needfuldoer

      Too bad that’s not long enough to be a DoA book title.

  15. Synnerman

    Joe is going to get a hug. That people caring about him line…

  16. Sambo

    That is quite the pun in the hover text… *facepalm*

  17. Magdalana

    so he looks a little bit like ToeDad in that next-to-last panel for a…reason. right?

  18. TemporalShrew

    One one hand, it’s good to see Joe vocally addressing deeper issues he’s evidently conscious that he has.

    On the other hand, his preferred “solution” to those issues is second only to his handling of this situation in godawfulness. Always good to hurt one of the few people who gives enough of a shit *not* to dismiss you immediately for your superficial misogyny, whether you inexplicably think it’s a good thing to be known for or not.

  19. Deathjavu

    See? Joe felt the burn from last strip so badly he immediately had to fire a retort, which has now landed back in front of him as a grenade.

    He explained himself to Joyce here to an extent I doubt he did to anyone else all day – because he did humanize Joyce, and now he’s listening to what she has to say.

  20. Luzahn

    Wait, why are people angry with Joe now? Isn’t this sad/nihilistic poor Joe territory?

    1. miados

      i think the previous comic to most people seems contrary to this one so soon.

    2. WarDragon

      Frankly, I don’t get a lot of the Joe-hate. He’s always seemed pretty harmless to me. Yeah, he’s a shallow horn-dog, but he never pretends to be anything else. He’s never intentionally mislead anybody about what’s he’s after, and is a stickler about getting consent. He seemed genuinely offended whenever anyone’s implied otherwise, and the only people who have thought so are Joyce (with unrealistically romantic expectations) and Sarah (who’s predisposed to assume the worst of everyone).

      If I had to pick a trope for him, I’d probably go with http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EthicalSlut

      1. Halpful

        ugggghhhhh there’s always another That Guy.

        I’m starting to wish there was a wiki to copy&paste from when the standard “I don’t get this” points come up.

        1. Jago

          “That Guy”, aka people who just have a different opinion? I disagree rather often when the comment section vilifies people.
          That’s just me being me, I just don’t think people are JUST evil, if they aren’t even WRITTEN that way. People like Mary, the Evil Dads (TM), they are pretty obvious villains. But people like Joe, or Ruth, or Ruth’s boss are just people. People who makes mistakes or do shitty things. But that doesn’t make them evil, that makes them flawed, and while it’s obviously right to point out those flaws, some people will still like a character despite them, or just disagree.

          And going like “Hey another That Guy LOL” kind of undermines people’s opinions, as in, not even aknowledging them, which just sucks. Same thing as “Women amiright?”.
          I can’t make you respect differing opinions, this is the internet, but I’m kind of done with this phrase.
          It came first up when Willis said it about someone defending TOEDAD, which is kind of different to characters LIKE Joe, characters with flaws AND reasons for his flaws AND positive characteristics.
          Toedad is a villain written to be a villain, and roping everyone who disagrees on “this character is the worst” in with people defending (and reasoning for his actions) a father-character who brought a gun to a campus to kidnap his daughter?

        2. Mordecai

          There’s always the dismissive and exclusive attitude towards different opinions here, too.

      2. Socks

        He definitely doesn’t see women as real people the way he sees men (though, to be honest, I’m not sure he sees anyone as a 100% real person in general). And dehumanizing women, to any degree, is an inherently negative trait. We haven’t SEEN Joe display any of these behaviors, and, in fact, he has often been shown to be clearly opposed to them, but in general the idea that women are primarily there for dudes’ boners does lead to things like rape (because the “no” of a not-real-person counts less than the “yes” of the rapist), or all sorts of harassment (calling women by numbers as if this is somehow a compliment because the thing women are primarily concerned about is how they relate to dudes’ boners in general). Joe doesn’t do the worst of those things, but that’s like saying racists aren’t that bad as long as they’re not lynching people. It’s still bad.

        The reason I don’t get a lot of the Joe-hate is because our favorite characters almost ALL have a similar flaw. Joyce was homophobic as shit, and, in fact, dated a gay man to try to turn him straight. Amber… WAS abusive to Danny. People get really angry if you say that, but she called him a piece of shit, and then later broke up with him for talking to the “wrong” person, a person she also never once told him he was not “allowed” to see (which obviously wouldn’t have been okay either, she shouldn’t be able to punish him either way, but to punish him for breaking a rule he was unaware of might actually be worse?). Yes, that person was someone who triggered PTSD flashbacks for her, and yes, Danny DID kiss Amber in public when he wasn’t supposed to, and yes, Amber does have hella issues about becoming an abuser like her dad and also a ton of issues in general, but none of those things make her behavior okay. It’s kind of uncomfortable that people treat them like they do.

        But somehow the tangible serious harm of Amber flipping a table in public because her FRIEND was dating someone she disapproved of (regardless of how valid her reason was) gets more of a pass than Joe’s potential to cause serious harm through reducing women to sex objects. And like… I don’t think that’s fair. All these characters are 18 years old, fresh out of high school, fresh out of their parents’ houses for the very first time in their lives (except Sal, I guess). We’ve let Joyce learn for 7 years, but Joe is an irredeemable monster because he hasn’t learned his lesson by the middle of a single story, the first time he has ever seriously been made aware that there is a problem? A story which will likely span, literally, less than one single day in-universe from start to finish? I doubt I’ll ever convince anyone, but MAN does that bug me. These aren’t real people, they’re characters in a very well-written story. Watching them learn and evolve is the only way the story can remain compelling. If every character were immediately perfect or permanently villainous, this would not be a good story. It would be a garbage melodrama.

        1. ditrysia

          Bravo

        2. Rian

          Seconding!

        3. Chris Phoenix

          “(though, to be honest, I’m not sure he sees anyone as a 100% real person in general)”

          That apparently includes himself. Because, you know, real people would have at least one person who cared about them.

          As messed up as he thinks he is, what he’s saying here is that he has a strategy to minimize the damage he does to other people. He’s shallow so that no one will care about him and get “really” hurt. Kind of like Amber lets Amazi-Girl beat people up on very flimsy pretext so that Amber doesn’t get angry and “really” hurt someone.

          It does shed a new light on Joe’s expressions of dehumanizing attitudes toward women. It’s not that he’s horrible inside and this is what leaks out (which is what you might expect from a guy who’s gone full PUA). It’s that he is trying on purpose to convince women he doesn’t care about them, so they won’t care back.

          At least, that’s one facet of Joe’s story about himself.

        4. ValdVin

          Yep. We saw what happens when men try to talk to Joe like he’s real.

          “It’s true. All I see right now is a floating hat.”

          http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/fertile/

        5. shammers

          Wow I never would have put it that eloquently. Thank you

        6. WarDragon

          Yeah, I was expecting to get flamed when I posted that. Thanks, Jago, Mordecai, and Socks, for being reasonable.

      3. Leorale

        I’m afraid this one would’ve been a comments-FAQ by now, if such a FAQ existed.

        The short answer is that many commenters here have written at length about many direct experience with dudes who act just like Joe, and that, in real life, Joe’s behaviour is a smokescreen to make people think he’s harmless and consentual, when in fact it’s super duper is harmful… not to mention dehumanizing, upsetting to everyone around him, and FAR too pushy to be ethical. Joe also thinks he’s an Ethical Slut, but he’s deluding himself, his behaviour is scary and hurtful. Danny may have realized this. Hopefully Joyce is about to dissect some of it, too.

        1. Jago

          But he is harmless and consensual, and not really pushy at all.
          He sleeps around, but doesn’t commit, and his partners know that. Consent is important to him, he even said that at one point on the comic.
          And he isn’t really pushy either, when did that ever happen? When was he ever SCARY? I mean, your opinion and all, but I really don’t see it.

          I’ll agree on the “dehumanizing” part though, because turning people into numbers definitely is.

        2. Fart Captor

          No, he is not harmless, and the only good thing that can be said of Joe’s attitude on consent is that he draws the line just before sexual assault.

          He never listens the first time he’s told no. It took several tries with Sarah, and he didn’t react right away with Rachel either, despite both basically telling him to fuck off.

          He makes sexual comments even when he’s been asked not to. He doesn’t apologize when he causes distress. He doesn’t ever, ever, ever consider the possibility that sexual propositions are not that not appropriate in the majority of situations, especially when used in lieu of a god damn introduction.

          He never respects women enough to think there’s a situation where he shouldn’t just interrupt whatever they’re doing to hit on them. He never even respects them enough to try to start a normal damn conversation first to try and gauge if they might be at all interested. His concern about “missing an opportunity” just always outweighs any inconvenience, discomfort, or stress he might cause them.

          As to when Joe has been scary?
          Right here, for example

          Joyce may (now) know Joe well enough to be confident he’s not dangerous, but the vast majority of women Joe approaches do not. He’s a big guy. Trust is already not going to be something women are going to grant him by default when they first meet him, and when the first thing out of his mouth is how much he wants to fuck them, that’s absolutely going to raise alarm bells. When he won’t back off or leave them alone when they ask the first time, that’s only raising more.

  21. horrorshow88

    I feel a bit for Joe here. He doesn’t feel like anyone cares or that he matters; that he’s just the “shallow guy.” That can’t be a great feeling.

    1. Jago

      Honestly, I think it’s… safe? For the lack of a better word. Because if it doesn’t matter, nobody gets hurt, right? And he can probably just not care about stuff, because he built up walls. I’ve seen people do that, and it can be way more unhealthy.
      But yeah, I feel for him, too.

  22. Raen

    Rape culture?

  23. Pigeon Pollyx

    You know if this goes the way I think it will, I think this’ll have been a pretty good character arc for everyone

    1. SUGauthor

      It’s about time too, Joe’s been needing this arc for years.

  24. León Real

    Everyone here is on Joe’s case. But it wasn’t long ago when Joyce kept herself willingly ignorant of how the real world works.
    The only advantage she has is having been able to experience more events, while Joe has succeeded in keeping himself isolated, which has enabled him to keep his original world view intact.

    1. Fart Captor

      …And everyone was on Joyce’s case back when she was being homophobic, slut-shaming, and generally being a bigot. Because of how she was being those things.

      Like, I feel for him. This world view harms him, a lot more than he realizes. But it also shields him from ever having to feel bad about the harm he does to others. This is how he brushes off complaints about his behavior, and accusations that he’s done anything harmful.

      1. Socks

        People were on her case when she was doing something actively harmful, like, in that strip. But there were months-long stretches where people collectively forgot that Joyce was dating a gay man to turn him straight, or once compared Roz to a flower with the petals picked off, because, you know, we love Joyce. And she’s the main character so we see more of her thought processes and development.

        But people have absolutely not treated these two characters remotely the same for similar magnitudes of issues.

        1. Fart Captor

          Because the way Joe’s behavior causes harm is subtle compared to other characters. This leads to people denying there’s any harm at all, or accusing the people pointing it out of being melodramatic.

          This leads to arguments about Joe’s bad behavior cropping up more frequently, lasting longer, and getting more heated than if Joe were simply going around calling women “sugar tits” and slapping their asses.

        2. Rian

          That’s kind of the problem though? Because as the arguments get more heated more and more people go from ‘Joe is Problematic’ to ‘Joe is Literally Satan-and-also-a-psychopath-and-secret-rapist.’

          It’s not that he isn’t doing bad things and making mistakes, it’s that Joe’s mistakes are treated way worse than other characters who have done the same (or worse) things.

        3. Joe Covenant

          ^^^ this.

        4. thejeff

          OTOH, it’s also that this storyline is the first time we’ve seen any signs of Joe changing, while we’ve seen Joyce growing from the very start. Up until today (comic time) Joe’s behavior has been pretty much a constant.
          There was no reason to applaud his growth and forgive his past mistakes, when he wasn’t growing and was still making the same mistakes.

        5. Fart Captor

          It IS, except the problem is people refusing to believe that this shit is harmful. Especially because that is exactly what happens in real life. It’s the denials that are pissing people off

        6. shammers

          The difference is that not everyone is excusing his behavior. Many people just call out the disproportionate responses that seem to view him as some irredeemable character.

          And then those people get painted with the broad stroke of “that guy”. It’s like there are two conversations going on and neither participant can distinguish between the two.

        7. Fart Captor

          He’s demonstrating right here how stubborn he has resisted any criticism or serious examination of how his behavior impacts other people.

          You don’t get to decide for others how upset it is “appropriate” for them to feel about Joe’s behavior. It’s fine if you’re less upset, but this idea that people are being especially hard on Joe, when for example, Roz has frequently gotten such a nasty reaction it necessitated a word filter, is completely absurd. Becky was getting called out for getting a damn haircut instead of somehow starting a whole new life on $20, and for not hiding when Hank showed up. Joe’s being called out for shit that he actually did, which was actually his fault, and was actually bad.

        8. thejeff

          And which, until now, he showed no sign of stopping or of admitting it was at all problematic

          Unlike Joyce or Amber or Ruth or the other characters frequently cited as worse and not so hated.

        9. Socks

          Hasn’t Amber just been digging herself perpetually deeper into justifying her own actions? Amazi-girl was a positive outlet for negative emotions when the comic started, and we saw her do some really positive things with it! But since then, she’s stalked and instigated fights with Sal, and escalated almost every situation she’s been in, while also digging her heels in deeper and deeper that Amazi-girl can do no wrong (so everything she does is good) and that Amber can do only wrong (so everything she does is bad). She broke up with Danny for implying, in the mildest possible way and out of concern for her literally staying alive, that her behavior had room to change.

          I mean mental illness muddies how much of this counts as something we can hold against her, but still. We’ve only seen her feel guilty, we’ve never seen her try to change or admit that anything done as Amazi-girl is problematic (and it’s not like she ever thought that her fits of violent rage as Amber were okay).

          None of this is me saying Amber is a bad person, but the reasons we give her more of a pass is because we’ve seen more of her backstory and feelings and the developments that lead her to GETTING to this worse place, not because her behavior has been improving.

        10. Leorale

          Perhaps also people here have less experience with people romantically dating them to turn them heteroromantic, vs. experience with physically strong horndog dudes who dehumanize women and disrespect our boundaries (especially regarding sex). Trying to closet a person is definitely not okay either, but that second one might be even more of a relatable and/or visceral reaction?

          Also, we got to see Joyce’s thought process throughout. We knew their relationship was super dumb, but also we knew from the start that it was a reaction to her fundamentalist upbringing, which she was slowly but strongly throwing off.

          Also-also, Ethan was participating in that relationship. Joe’s numbered women didn’t want any part of Joe’s list.

          Also-also-also, Joyce is smaller than Ethan, and is a cute girl. We might be falling into the false trap that she’s a victim, while Ethan is a big strong dude so he’s not seen as vulnerable.

          Amazi-Girl/Amber forgave Joyce when she got explanations from both of them affirming what they were getting out of their choices. The comment section forgave Joyce when Joyce realized how their relationship was super harmful to him, and immediately stopped the relationship.

        11. thejeff

          For me, the part of it that lets her slide is that Ethan was fully on board with it – or at least pretended to himself that he was.
          And of course, that she eventually figured it out and ended it.

    2. Liliet

      Here’s the thing about consent: it doesn’t only apply to specifically the act of sticking your pee-pee in someone else’s vay-jay-jay or poo-hole. It applies to anything and everything of sexual nature you do to another person. That definitely, definitely includes asking before putting any kind of rating online about the person, backing off when you’re told to back off, and NOT bringing up sex on a first date when you’ve been told explicitly and repeatedly to not do that.

      Joe is horrifyingly terrible at consent, no matter how offended he gets at the suggestion.

  25. Kris

    In a billion years when the sun explodes and the earth is destroyed the remaining sentient life in the galaxy will know Joe ranked women!….and they won’t care for it and judge him negatively.

    1. Zach

      As I’m reading my spacefuture sci-fi with its lonely guitar imbedded in the page, what you say seams so very obvious; a fundamental truth.

  26. Chromacandi

    Hug him Joyce. Hug the shit out of him

    1. LeslieBean4Shizzle

      Kiss him, Joyce!

  27. Optimal Optimus

    I really really want to hear what Joyce has to say to him!

    1. Halpful

      yeah. it took me a while to figure out what joe was trying to say; I haven’t figured out what joyce is thinking.

      1. ditrysia

        My theory is that maybe punching him gave her the courage to stand up to toedad.

      2. James Rye

        I think she doesn’t want him to think about himself like that, aka that he is just a shallow guy and that it isn’t bad if somebody cares about him because she does so. I mean, Joe talked to her on Line about her dad, mother, family issues; would a shallow guy who’s only after p*ssy really do that without anything to gain for it but to make her feel better a bit?

  28. Passchendaele

    Every time I influence somebody’s opinion or mood, or anybody focuses on me for any length of time, I freak out and worry I’m damaging somebody/something, and I always feel like I’d be better off in the background, so Joe’s arguments hit waaaay too close to home for me. ‹.‹

    1. TemperaryObsessor

      You are the chosen one.
      Sorry couldn’t resist.

  29. Tacos

    Hrm? Is that alt-text a reference to something. I don’t get it.

    1. TheOthin

      It’s a reference to E=mc^2: energy equals mass (matter) times the speed of light squared.

  30. William Leonard Reese Jr.

    Alright so Joe is finally cracking here and this can either be a really GOOD thing or a really BAD thing.

    I’m hoping for a good thing, that Joe will LET himself mean things and that he will realize that he has people that DO care about him; Joyce and Danny, both who are his friends and he has to realize means something to him.

    However if this cracks the other way he will double down on his behavior in an attempt to prove to himself that nothing matters and that he can not LET anything matter.

    Here’s hoping for the best.

  31. miados

    i can sort of relate to joes logic here. not quite but kind of. decently bad stuff ahead so um yeah.

    I hated myself so much. enough to try to end my life a few times. I stopped caring about humanity in general. If they liked me or hated me i didnt care. in fact i saw anyone liking me as a paradox i couldnt understand and anyone who hated me as being an underachiever because i felt nobody could hate me as much as i did.

    after all trying to end someones life says a lot about what you think of them.

    1. Murgatroyd

      *hugs* I hope you’re in a better headspace these days. If not, please know that getting help can make things better.

      1. miados

        mostly. I’m getting a bit of stability and working on getting my first full time job and then moving away from family. They didn’t seem to like the idea of me being on my own after either of my game over attempts.

        that said i still have dark thoughts but now i start to write about stupid trope filled stories to distract myself. those ones, unlike the ones i care about, i dont even bother to save beyond my notebook and are often just starting bits.

        1. Murgatroyd

          Sounds like a good strategy 🙂

        2. miados

          i also gift people lots of stuff on a stupid forum website where you dress up your avitars.

        3. Murgatroyd

          I’m sure it’s not stupid to the people you’re gifting.

          Hopefully you’re also getting professional help, exercise if you’re physically able, etc., or will be soon. The internet can be helpful but also maybe not sufficient , you know?

        4. miados

          until i get the job and such i cant afford any real help beyond a few occasional 800 numbers. i passed my first test but now i got to pass the second to be qualified for the job i want.

        5. NotPiffany

          In that case, I wish you well on your second test.

        6. Jhon

          Seconded!

        7. Murgatroyd

          Thirded! (Although even if things don’t go your way this time, it’s not the end of the world.)

  32. Mike King

    KISS!

    1. LeslieBean4Shizzle

      Finally. I was wondering how far I’d have to go down before I got to someone else whose reaction was this.

  33. Keulan

    Well, that kinda explains a lot of why Joe acts the way he does.

  34. NF

    I want to see Joyce lose it and try to maliciously cause Joe emotional pain. Followed by Joyce later telling Sarah that she thinks she needs to apologize to Joe, and Sarah replying, “you have the weirdest problems.”

    1. Socks

      Oh dang. I didn’t know I wanted that, but… oh god, I do. My need for delicious drama just blew my desire for things to work out right out of the water.

      Being invested in fiction makes me question whether or not I’m a monster sometimes.

  35. The Aussie Bloke

    Is she grabbing her wrist to remind herself that punching him will only break it again?

    1. Murgatroyd

      No, I don’t think so — she grabs her wrist when she’s having a (PTSD?) flashback. She’s connecting Joe’s mild-ish dehumanization of women to Ryan’s more extreme dehumanization of her.

      1. bryy

        oh my god i didn’t even realize that.

        sadly, joe does not, as well.

        1. Murgatroyd

          I think he does in the last panel. He interrupts himself (second-to-last panel, a dash takes over his “whatever”), pauses (ellipsis in last panel), and then says her name in a questioning way (last panel). I mean, he doesn’t know exactly what she’s doing (and definitely doesn’t know he contributed to it), but the way I read the strip, he’s at least noticed that something weird/bad is happening to her and is at least baseline concerned.

      2. miados

        i see it more as him dehumanizing himself first and doing it to others to make it easier to do to himself.

        1. Murgatroyd

          I mean I wrote more about my opinion below, but I think it’s kind of a chicken-and-egg scenario. He avoids emotional involvement both because he’s afraid of getting hurt himself and because (probably largely because he saw how his dad’s philandering ways hurt his mom) he’s afraid of hurting his potential partners.

          However, while I am hugely sympathetic to Joe (and anyone caught up in toxic masculinity (although as a cis woman obviously I’ve never been one of them)), regardless of the psychological roots of his actions, they have actual hurtful consequences for the women he targets. Joyce can’t go “Hey, sounds like this message is coming from a place of pain, so I’ll just ignore the connection between Joe’s mindset and that of the guy who tried to rape me — yeah, let me just save this panic attack for later.”

      3. Ophidiophile

        Joyce hurt her wrist when she punched Becky’s dad, AFTER she froze and failed to prevent Becky from getting into his car with him. Becky could have died because of that, something Joyce could never have conceived of beforehand. Nobody can say what they do doesn’t matter, because nobody knows what the results will be with 100% certainty.

    2. LeslieBean4Shizzle

      Um, as noted above, I’m pretty sure Joyce is grabbing JOE’s wrist. Mostly because Joyce is still carrying her donut in the other hand as of pannel 1 and is not shown eating it.

      1. spoopyfox

        oh no is this gonna be the new gun/knife

        1. spoopyfox

          wait i meant knife/phone

        2. King Daniel

          Toedad’s gun was actually a knife???

        3. Delicious Taffy

          Joe’s hand is a phone?

        4. Kamino Neko

          Joeward Knifehands?

        5. ValdVin

          There are five XKCD phones, none of which have a knife, pistol, or even a garrot.

          I wonder how they overlooked all that.

      2. King Daniel

        The donut looks mostly-eaten in panel one, so she presumably finished it off-panel. The arm’s at the wrong angle and has the wrong skin tone to be Joe’s.

      3. the final pam

        No. I’m pretty sure she’s *not* grabbing Joe’s hand.

        1. She could easily drop the donut off-screen and it wouldn’t need to be shown bc its just a donut and its not that significant.
        2. There’s no difference in hand size, the angle of the arm matches with Joyce, and that’s clearly Joyce’s skin tone, not Joe’s.

        1. Severing

          “it’s just a donut and its not that significant”

          Bite your tongue =O

        2. ValdVin

          “Dropped the unfinished donut” is a sentence fragment I cannot comprehend.

          But I’m with you on the “physiologistics” of body parts etc that it’s Joyce and her own wrist in Panel 7.

          I’m curious to know if Joe remembers this strip http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/01-pajama-jeans/full/
          and is now more respectful of Joyce’s space.

          (Heck, do we even know that Joe has learned about Ryan drugging/attempted rape of Joyce? How much does Joe know about that whole thing?)

    3. Jago

      I don’t think she wants to punch him, I think she’s remembering something bad.

      1. Fart Captor

        It can be both.

  36. Swoop

    This feels too real. And sad. For both of them.

  37. Puckish Rogue

    Panel four, damn that’s…I’m not even sure what that is but I know its not good

  38. DeWitt

    Now’s probably a bad time to want friendship from these two (though I do so ardently crave it, and have for literal years, now) — the next strip/few strips will really determine where that thought goes, imo.

    Both of their emotional dams look like they’re preparing to leak. Or burst. This strip feels like it’s made hairline fractures in both.

    Joe’s surprised me, the past few times we’ve seen him. Notably, he’s opened up in increments… which is something I was beginning to write off as a thing that would happen. Silly me, honestly; I forgot everything save for character death is an inevitable possibility. Finally openly addressing that surface-deep persona he’s adopted, and all.

    The last panel denotes concern, maybe (?). I suppose we’ll see where that goes. And then there’s Joyce clutching her Toedad Punch ™ wrist, which… doesn’t spell out great things for Joe, honestly, but I doubt that she’d go as far as to punch him again. (Watch me eat my words 24 hours from now).

    Worst case scenario, they yell at each other and learn nothing. Which is, like all the other paths that could be taken, a distinct possibility. Guess we’ll see.

  39. Romanticide

    Damn Joe… what you just said is kinda sad…

    1. WarDragon

      Extremely sad.

      1. Romanticide

        yes… :S

  40. DailyBrad

    In case anyone still isn’t sure how Joe feels about what his dad did stepping out on his mom, and why casual sex is not the same thing as cheating, there ya go.

    1. Delicious Taffy

      But… Casual sex isn’t the same thing as cheating. Are you saying it is, or am I reading that wrong?

      1. DailyBrad

        It isn’t the same, you’re right. I could have been clearer. I mostly brought it up since people have asked in the past why he would look at his dad with disapproval, but also bone around, with the difference being that Joe is single and doesn’t seem to make moves at anyone’s girlfriends, etc.

        1. Arian

          Inadvertent, I’m sure, but “doesn’t seem to make moves at anyone’s girlfriends” might be more respectfully phrased as “… any woman who has a boyfriend” or “… who is in a relationship”.

          Okay, Joe himself might conceive of those women as “somebody’s girlfriend”, i.e. Some Other Dude’s Property, but it’s good to notice when what you’re saying can bear an unintended interpretation.

        2. IllogicalBobcat

          My sister isn’t my property but she’s still my sister.

        3. Delicious Taffy

          For all you know, anyway…

        4. DailyBrad

          Yeah, like Bobcat said, my phrasing was not to imply ownership. I was just going for brevity.

        5. TemperaryObsessor

          I’m not sure he actually takes time to make sure his latest fling is actually single or would even care if she had a boyfriend so long as the boyfriend was not one of his friends.

  41. Murgatroyd

    Ooh. Joyce is probably especially sensitive to the idea of men not thinking of women as human beings, given what’s recently happened with Ryan — the guy who zero percent thought of her as a human being.

    But Joe doesn’t get that connection. He’s too focused on justifying his behavior to Joyce, because a) no one else apparently ever calls him on it (except kind of Danny, recently), and b) he does actually kind of care what she thinks. And to me, the sad thing is that his justification seems to reveal that he’s afraid of himself. Maybe he’s scare of ending up like his dad. He saw that his mom got emotionally attached to his dad, and that she was hurt (presumably badly) by his dad’s cheating. He built this whole persona of emotionless stud so he could embody what he sees as his dad’s positive quality (sleeping with lots of women) while avoiding what he sees as his dad’s negative quality (hurting Joe’s mom). He’s scared that if he formed an emotional relationship with someone, he’d hurt her. This does give me a lot of sympathy for Joe, caught up in a spiral of toxic masculinity and self-loathing.

    But, by insisting on treating women like they’re not human, and by insisting that doing so avoids real harm, Joe is basically defending Ryan’s M.O. By the looks of that last panel, he’s triggering Joyce into a panic attack. Poor kids, both of them. Maybe this will be a turning point for Joe, maybe it’ll help him see how effed up his mindset is…but it’s awful that Joyce has to go through trauma and then suffer some of its worst after effects in front of him in order for that to happen

    1. Indy

      While I agree that’s the most salient connection, Joyce is also slowly shaking off a lifetime of being taught that she an object by her family. Not just in the sense of “being a vessel for the Lord,” but in being sent to school to find a husband, and having her mother and brother police whether or not she’s allowed to express anger. She hurt her wrist punching Becky’s dad, who was spouting the same rhetoric about his daughter being his to control. She’s had to confront a LOT of harsh realizations about her upbringing, and seeing him condescend to her while clearly refusing to face his own misconceptions and familial troubles has to be both frustrating and sad.

      1. Vivid Grim

        good note! this is something that’s easy to forget for a lot of us who weren’t raised christian, or even this particular brand of christian, i think

      2. Murgatroyd

        Interesting point! I wonder whether Joyce has consciously made this connection yet.

  42. BBCC

    Oh, honey, you have a motherfucking STORM coming.

  43. SomeUnregPunk

    This is going to end in hate sex ain’t it?

  44. OnyxIdol

    Damn, Joe, how much hurt have you bottled up? But I guess he wouldn’t be a DoA character if he didn’t need therapy.

  45. Gojira

    If Joe hadn’t raised his voice and got all emotional, he wouldn’t be hurting Joyce right now.

    1. Jago

      People have emotions, Joe, too, even if he tries not to, it happens, what’s the point?

  46. Bagge

    Uh oh

  47. Indiana Bones

    She’s either gonna punch him or make out with him and I honestly don’t know which of the two I’d prefer

  48. Irredentist

    Well, I suppose Joe has a point. If you’re gonna be a dick, at least be open about being a dick. That way no one is surprised when you act like a dick.

  49. nlips

    Was Joe hurt by attachment in the past? And now chooses to reject real human connections — becoming deliberately shallow — just so he won’t be hurt again?

    Or was it the other way around? Did he hurt somebody who cared about him, so he pushes everybody away so he won’t be the cause of so much pain ever again?

    1. Murgatroyd

      I guess either (or both) is possible, but based on what we know so far, I’d venture that he’s disturbed by what he witnessed when his dad cheated on his mom. He’s scared of being hurt the way his mom was and also of hurting others the way his dad did.

    2. TemperaryObsessor

      He was hurt by an attachment in the past. His mom’s attachment to his dad. The lesson he took away from all that is men like him are incapable or real relationships, and pretending that he is capable of a real relationship will eventually hurt anyone who he started to build a relationship with, and himself by extension.

  50. Cmd1095

    Damn, Joe’s words hit close to home. I don’t handle it the same way, but the perception that I don’t matter to anyone beyond superficial and shallow attachments is an emotion I know really well. And yeah it affects how I act. I laugh and joke a lot and rarely let that facade drop. It’s easier if my actions and words are always just jokes, that way I’m fun to be around and people don’t get rid of me.

    Connecting on a deeper level, saying and doing things that matter, those are things for people who are wanted for more than just some easy laughs or some manual labor. Nobody wants to stick around when I’m serious, so it’s better to stay shallow and jovial and not take anything too seriously if I can help it.

    My outlet is far less harmful to others than Joe’s objectifying women, but I can see the fears and insecurities and pain behind his facade very clearly right now.

    Now as for what this means in the next few strips. Joe has dropped his guards and let his true feelings out here with Joyce, and that puts Joyce in a situation where she can either solidify the progress he’s made, or undo it all in an instant. Depending on how she reacts, Joe’s walls might have permanent cracks in them that can widen until they collapse. If she reacts poorly and hurts him though, any progress we’ve seen so far will vanish and it’ll be a LONG time before he opens up to someone again.

    There’s a lot riding on Joyce’s reaction right now, I just hope she realizes this and can help Joe, because it’s likely now or never.

    1. Murgatroyd

      I think she’s having a panic attack, though — she’s holding her wrist the way she does when she flashes back to Ryan attempting to rape her. Joe doesn’t realize she’s thinking along these lines, but the stuff he said echoes what Joyce associates with Ryan (Ryan also thinks of women as non-human and doesn’t think about the people he hurts).

      So I don’t know. I think Joyce might hurt him — totally unintentionally, because a) she’s panicking and b) she was so focused on the harmful-attitudes-toward-women thing that she probably wasn’t able to focus on where it was coming from. That would be tragic, but not Joyce’s fault.

      Or maybe seeing how much pain mindsets like his have caused his friend, he’ll start to see that his approach to relationships is bad.

      Or maybe he’ll go into denial because he won’t want to admit, maybe even to himself, that the persona he’s built is part of a deeply toxic culture.

      I really hope the outcome is positive for both of them, but they’re both dealing with some really heavy stuff, so while I would feel horrible for Joe if Joyce shut him down in this moment of vulnerability, I also wouldn’t blame her for a second.

    2. Murgatroyd

      Cmd1095, I meant to tell you I’m sorry you feel like you don’t matter to anyone beyond superficial and shallow attachments — I’m sure you matter to people more than you know, and also, if not, that isn’t because of YOU, it’s because you happen to have people in your life who aren’t good at appreciating others. Like, if it’s even true that you don’t matter to anyone deeply, that is not because of a flaw on your part. It’s entirely on theirs.

      Tone is hard on the internet, so to clarify, I mean all of that sincerely. It sounds like you’ve got a lot of good qualities. I mean, just from this post, I see:
      -emotional intelligence (drawing a connection between yourself and Joe despite different external behaviors; saying “perception” implying you know that what you perceive is not necessarily reality (which is actually a really big deal because that’s what allows you to come to new understandings of the world))
      -compassion (feeling for Joe and wanting the best for him)
      -reasoned hopefulness (you’re letting yourself be vulnerable in hoping for Joe, even though you know things might go poorly and it might be easier to just go “this won’t end well” and tune out)
      -self-awareness (explaining your M.O. clearly (that takes articulateness, too, btw))
      -strength (without any major external thing pushing you to do so, you value yourself — maybe on a conscious level you think you don’t, or something, but your behavior shows that at least part of you does. You know that an emotional need you have at this point in time is to be around people, so, given that you don’t have anyone you feel like you can be totally open with, you put the effort into learning the behaviors that will keep people around and thus fulfill your emotional need, at least a little bit. I’m not saying this is the best coping method (I don’t know your life well enough to do that, obvs), but the fact that you can put that much effort into what seems like the best way to fulfill your emotional need shows that you do value yourself, and that is really really hard to do without support.)
      -kindness (you’re not taking out your feelings on anyone, either by being an aggressive jerk or in a less direct way like Joe does)
      -courage (even anonymously, committing to sharing such vulnerable information in a public forum is scary, so I commend you for that)

      So I reeeeeally hope my previous comment didn’t come off too harsh. It’s just that I’ve been the Joyce in a semi-sort-of analogous scenario, and while I did choose to support the Joe, I had to put my emotional needs aside in order to do it. I’ve only been molested, not nearly raped, so I’m guessing Joyce is even deeper in the feels than I was at the time, and that makes me feel protective of her in this strip. If she’s overwhelmed by her feelings or just doesn’t want to shelve them to help someone who’s behaving offensively, I think that’s fine.

      1. Cmd1095

        That… means a lot to hear (well, read, but i digress). Particularly how you went about it. I’ve had people tell me I’m a nice guy or a good person and not to be so hard on myself and stuff like that before, but it’s always been generic stuff to try and get the fun me back when I slip… or at least it feels that way. But having the positive traits listed out with evidence of how I demonstrated them resonates more with me, it feels less like an empty feel good compliment and more like a genuine reassurance that my anxiety and depression are wrong about me.

        All I ever get to see is evidence that I’m worthless and my failures, so really, seeing some contradictory tangible points that I can look at and say “no, I do have these qualities and here’s proof” for once means a lot, thank you.

        Oh and your previous comment was fine, no worries.

        1. Murgatroyd

          For what it’s worth, I think you’re right to note that seemingly empty compliments might actually be meaningful (“at least it feels that way”), partly because it’s just good practice to question thoughts that may be clouded by anxiety/depression.

          Also, though, it’s likely that people you interact with actually do have evidence that you’re a good person etc. but just don’t express it well. Like, they may assume you can already identify your positive traits so that there’s no point discussing them explicitly. They may have their own issues that make them uncomfortable having emotional conversations in general. Especially if they see you as a jokester, they may think that by going too deep or getting too real, they could make you uncomfortable (if I’m correct in assuming you’re male, I think this is partially a gender thing, too, in that society expects men to want to avoid super personal conversation). Obviously fake compliments do exist, but still, other things could account for why some people don’t spell out the reasons for the positive stuff they say about you (slash anyone).

          And if people actually are just giving you empty compliments (which again, I don’t think is necessarily the case)? I hope you at least sort of realize, on a cognitive level if not yet an emotional one, that their inability to recognize your positive qualities has nothing to do with whether the positive qualities are there. I realize that that doesn’t actually address the problem of not having deep relationships. But maybe it could help you see that you have worth independent of other people’s recognition of it.

          On that note. I’m genuinely glad my analysis gave you some arguments with which to fight back against your anxiety and depression. At the same time, I just want to point out that literally all I did was name and label some stuff that *you* did. You are the root of why you felt good when you read my comment. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with needing someone else’s reassurance to spur that kind of feeling, but you would have been totally justified in feeling equally good about yourself had I not written anything, you know?

          Anyway. This comment is probably annoyingly long as it is, but looking back at your first comment, you said your outlet is less harmful to others than Joe’s is. I’m always relieved when a guy finds a way to deal with his own pain that doesn’t involve hurting women, buuut I’m also hoping that this outlet is not too harmful to you, either, because that matters too.

          Either way, *appropriate gesture of support.*

    3. adjudicus

      A lot of what you said resonates with me, especially since the feeling that you dont really matter to people is one I deal with every day. Each day I doubt whether my friends truly care about me and whether I matter to them or whether they just see me as “That smart guy who’s good to work with on projects and fun to be around”. I’m scared that if I suddenly stop being this to them they’ll get rid of me.

      1. Murgatroyd

        *appropriate gesture of support*

    4. amanda

      Joe’s words also sounded like my anxiety and depression – that no one wants to know more than the surface me, they just want me to “keep smiling.” So I really appreciate what you’ve said here, Cmd1095 and adjudicus.

      1. Murgatroyd

        *appropriate gesture of support*

  51. ravenstromdans

    I can’t tell if Joyce is about to break down or if that’s her “Urge to kill: Rising” face.

    The way she’s rubbing her previously broken hand, it could go either way.

  52. Grethelwveir

    I’m seeing comments wanting Joyce to hug him, and slap him, respectively. And I really can’t make up my mind about which would be better. I think I want her to punch him half-heartedly in the chest: forceful enough to convey her upset in full, but very clearly pulled. Joe knows how much strength Joyce can put into an actual hit, and the pectoral region (& thoracic region in general) requires significant trauma to actually injure. It’s not a place you aim for unless you intend to hurt very little, or a hell of a lot. (Exception to people with breasts, unfortunately. That shit hurts.) And I want her to stare him down, and I want him see the affection, and frustration, and hurt, and expectation, and determination in her face, trying to get her point across. We have confirmation now that Joe hears Joyce even when she’s said nothing. I think those two things would be louder to him than anything she could say. Would be the breaking of the wall so an honest conversation can be had. I think… that’s what I want.

  53. WWWdotGun

    Oh, this is so sad… It’s terrible to hear Joe say that he doesn’t want anything about himself to matter. But, it’s also kind of horrible having to hear him try and purport that the actions he was performing had very little impact, when it isn’t necessarily about severity, but that the fact that he was doing it was indicative of having a really harmful mindset of viewing women as purely objects…

    And pretty horrible having to see that the whole doughnut thing was entirely based in having people dislike him less, and not out of having an inkling of understanding of why what he was did was wrong. I might be wrong about that

    On the one hand, it would be nice seeing Joyce give a breakdown of why Joe is wrong for creating his list. But Joyce looks so afraid at the moment, and this topic of conversation is already delving so uncomfortably close to her experiences with Ryan and reminding her of the societal factors which enabled such situations to happen, that it seems like it would be worse to see Joyce have to break down to an unrelated party of why her personal trauma shouldn’t be taken with as light of an approach as Joe is taking with things similar to it. I really can’t imagine Joyce walking away from this situation from a narrative perspective as that would accomplish and change nothing in the story, but it’s hard watching Joyce having to actively confront stuff like this particularly when she isn’t expecting it.

  54. vlademir1

    So I was going to respond to Sporky above about how it’s not the end of this that’ll be bad, but the very long road these two have in front of them considering where they seem headed. In working out what I was going to say, however, it hit me that this DoA year, presuming the existing ratio of RL time to DoA time persists and Willis doesn’t get tired of doing DoA, won’t end prior to late 2050 and even if the story continues to be told at the same rate beyond that point by others these kids won’t graduate before August 2212.

  55. newllend(henryvolt)

    No it matters because people DO care about you.

  56. Cerberus

    Comic Reactions:

    Last comic: So before we dive into this one, I wanted to take a moment to appreciate Joe in the last comic. Quiet, reflective, apologetic. Still a sign of the desperate need to front, to hide that he has empathy, but a very real moment and possibly the first real apology.

    And Joyce’s line is a necessary hard truth, because well, yeah, she was the only one he reacted to as a person rather than a collection of sex organs and an initial boner assessment. Heck, she’s even the only one whose number has been altered and altered specific to her direct behavior to Joe.

    Everyone else? Who they’ve been, whether they rejected him, who they actually are? Nope. Nada. Just an initial boner summary and then dropped into the same memory hole of target to acquire.

    And that objectification is shitty. Being treated not as a person but as an object whose humanity is optional.

    As Granny Weatherwax said, all the evil in the world starts with treating people like things.

    Panel 1: So for this comic, let’s start first and foremost with what must be Joe’s biggest flaw and most frightening feature. And that’s whenever he’s shown up by a girl or made to think about the effect of his actions on others, he lashes out, getting angry and making shitty excuses to justify tuning out and continuing as normal.

    And that’s something a lot of women have dealt with time and time again. That relatively okay guy, but then you ask him to stop creeping on you or to stop demeaning you or sending weird emails and all of a sudden, the guy is a rage ball and you’re the feminazi who personally destroyed all fun in his life.

    And the dynamic is made even more powerful here because this is Joyce, a woman he’s sexually harassed again and again because she turned his attempted “corrective seduction” into a disastrous assault of a date. And because of this imagery here.

    Two people alone, Joyce walking away and Joe angrily marching after her demanding her time and clarification and the right to argue his case when he knows he doesn’t fucking have one. The optics of it alone communicate a lot of scary moments women have had to navigate, where we have to really examine closely whether or not you think this person blowing up at you is all bluster or not.

  57. Cerberus

    Panel 1 continued: And then there’s the substance of what Joe is saying and it resonates a lot because it’s like that idea that the “internet isn’t real life”. That all the harassment and death and rape threats and attempts to drive a person to suicide can be seen as a victimless game because “it’s not like it’s at real people”.

    But it is. And same with this. He’s arguing that his objectification makes it okay because it diminishes everyone to a state where they don’t have feelings to be hurt. But a) that’s not how it works. Just because you assume that humankind is as immune to input as a toaster does not make it so and b) his targets that he dehumanized were women and were not himself.

    He can pretend he “dehumanized” himself by believing a lie that it was possible to avoid emotions and dating and having to actually win people’s affection and all the vulnerability of actually seeking lust. love, and/or company, but he didn’t. Instead he made himself into the only conscious actor in a field of statues, erasing the harm his actions caused by erasing the humanity of those he targeted. And that erasure just made his actions worse.

    Think of every aspect of his character I’ve criticized, the open sexual harassment, the shitty regard for boundaries, the open contempt he shows his classmates and teacher in the Gender Studies class. Many of them stem from this origin point, that he’s tried desperately to cling to the idea that the women in his life are decorative objects for his dick rather than people with internal lives.

    And when he’s been forcibly reminded of that, he’s lashed out, hoping bluster and denial will erase the reality he is only too aware of.

    But no, objectifying and treating people like sexual objects doesn’t mean “no one” gets hurt. It just trains guys like Joe and Ryan not to view the women they are targeting as people.

    This is not to say that Ryan and Joe are the same. But it’s a path that if Joe doesn’t get off it, can very easily lead to Ryan. Which is why it’s important that this is all crumbling on him now.

    Panel 2: And Joyce’s response here is perfect. Reminding him that this fairy-tale fantasy he’s constructed for himself is paper-thin, that it’s already crumbling. That this delusion that he can avoid “the feels” is just that. That he’s in the midst right now of desperately damage controlling his immense fuck up.

  58. Cerberus

    Number 3: … This is a common attitude, unfortunately. Related in many ways to the “I’m a troll” or “I was only kidding” defense for intense bigotry. The idea that if you don’t care enough about the people you are hurting or the contexts in which you are playing and the collateral damage that it does, then it somehow erases the harm.

    And well, that’s an old and tried tactic. Plenty of horrible people throughout history have tried to argue that the casual nature in which they enacted their horrible actions should somehow serve as excuse for it. As if malice done casually out of a lack of regard for the humanity of its target is somehow significantly different than malice done intentionally out of a desire to wound.

    And with something like sexual harassment, well, yeah, those of us frequently targeted no well that our pursuers think the casual gamey mechanics they put to it all somehow reduces us in life to NPCs who happily go away and bleep bloop into the aether rather than carry the scars for months or years.

    And this last line really underscores a nasty aspect of the donuts.

    Those donuts fixed jack all. Sure they earned him some cred, but as we see here, he’s still looking to spend it, to make the “issue” go away and return to his same tired shit. Because he’s terrified of doing the hard work and facing the vulnerability of cutting it loose once and for all.

    And it’s disingenuity like this that makes a lot of marginalized groups wary of publicly performative apologies. Because for too many perpetrators, that’s seen as a magic get out of jail free card that lets them fuck up in the exact same way the second the cameras are off of them.

    Panel 4: And this bit… this bit just makes me feel sorry for him, because we’re seeing some of the why of his massive investment in this shitty situation and it’s fucking tragic. He watched his dad’s shitty lecherous behavior rip apart his family and did not internalize that his dad’s behavior was awful, but that his dad’s mistake was letting his mom fall in love with him and have a kid with him who could be hurt by their fights.

    That somehow that same pain couldn’t be transmitted without the relationship and it’s such a dire example of completely misreading the situation to its massive worsening. Because no, Joe’s dad’s actions are fucked up and shitty. And so are Joe’s.

    And relationships aren’t the real enemy here.*

    *Though it should be noted they are not for everyone. It is absolutely okay to be aromantic or even to just not be looking for a romantic relationship at the moment. It is okay to enjoy no-strings-attached sex and low emotional investment. There are ways to make that work and be consensual and make one a very popular member of specific sexual communities.

    But that requires dropping this idea that erasing the humanity of people and treating everything like a game fixes anything. It requires acknowledging that the person engaging on that purely sexual level is a person who deserves respect and acknowledgment of who they are and what they are looking for.

    And for guys like Joe, it’s hard to see that. The whole damn culture around them does everything it can to communicate the idea that women are objects for their consumption, that only their boner and the pleasing of it matters.

    But that’s what makes that culture toxic and why it is so important to escape it. I think Joe will be soon forced to escape it.

  59. Cerberus

    Panel 5: This.

    Just this. Because this is the most important piece of mentoring information anyone can give anyone else. That what we do matters. That no matter what narratives we spin, what we say and what we do always matters. Our words can heal or harm. Our actions can save a life or end a life, brighten or darken a day.

    What we do and say matters.

    Yes, even online. Yes, even to strangers. Yes, even to those without power. Yes, even in response to how we fight misapplied power. Every drop is part of this raging flood we are trapped in. And there’s no way to exclude yourself out from that equation.

    And for someone like Joe, this has very specific meaning. His harassment has real effects. Triggers bad memories, makes people more miserable or feel less safe going out, ruins days or makes folks feel unwelcome and like meat, diminishes accomplishments and consent, sends horrible messages about specific folks, reinforces toxic messages and gives comfort to rapists to do what they do.

    And we’ve seen those effects. We’ve seen Joyce, in a PTSD panic trying to reach Becky when Joe’s harassment triggered her into a full breakdown, we’ve seen him stumble blindly into shitting on queer folks during the “queer people get heavily discriminated against” unit lesson, we’ve seen him making Danny feel he couldn’t come to his best friend about a really important aspect of himself.

    We’ve even seen his butterfly effect in the form of his harassment of Rachel making Rachel even less in a mood to tolerate people she saw as harmful thus hurting Joyce, Ruth, BIllie, and Amber in the process and giving comfort to Mary.

    Hell, I’ve been on the bandwagon for a long while that his commentary about Joyce when he was targeting her directly echoes the corrective rape arguments made frequently about asexual folks and how that attitude leads to incredible amounts of violence against them.

    What he does matters.

    Panel 6: And of course he knows that, so he instantly goes on the deflection. Makes her an untrustworthy source, erases it to the stereotype, goes on the attack. Anything to avoid the reality of what his actions do. It’s his worst quality.

    Panel 7: But the way she’s holding that hand? She’s thinking of Ryan. And I think she’s about to dump that on him. About how being targeted as an object to be used made her feel. The scars she’s had to carry from that moment and the way that’s fucked with her life.

    And I pray to Bob that Joe lets go of his fragile masculinity for a second and truly listens to what she’s about to say.

    1. Rukduk

      Something that gives me a little hope is that last panel. Because like you said, when this happened before he ended up triggering a PTSD episode for Joyce because he kept up the anger and didn’t pay attention to what his words where doing. This time is different. Because he actually is paying attention to Joyce and realizing that something is wrong. And as soon as he sees that Joyce might not be ok at the moment he stops lashing out. He pulls a 180. Which speaks miles to his character growth from the last time we saw him interacting with Dorothy, or hell even earlier today (in comic time). Because this is quite possibly the first time that he is aware of what he’s doing and actually stopping himself. And the fact that he stops his rant is something he definitely wouldn’t have done before.

    2. OnyxIdol

      I feel I need to break a lance for Joe. The way I read his exposition and anger here is that his shallowness is a coping mechanism for the emotional distress he has experienced through his parents’ falling out. He flees into claims of shallowness to pretend to be unaffected by emotions and interpersonal stuff. But his anger in this moment shows that his “shield of shallowness” is nothing more than a thin veneer covering a lot of hurt.

      Yes, the way he treats women is bad, but imo it’s a result of his own emotional issues. That doesn’t make it any better, but it adds a dimension and explanation to his character beyond bro dude. He, like the women he has mistreated, deserves pity and compassion.

      1. Cerberus

        I would agree. He’s hurting. That doesn’t make his actions okay, but it definitely explains fully where he’s coming from and dealing with and what led him down this path and what’s keeping him still here.

        I have sympathy for that but only to a point as I’ve seen too closely first-hand the damage that “hurting guys” can do to women in the name of easing that psychological distress, especially regarding finding a shortcut through actually having to process emotions.

        1. OnyxIdol

          Yes, it’s a fucking tragedy, and certainly a result of the oft-mentioned toxic masculinity that he (so far) has been unable to process his emotions in a healthy way.

    3. Rian

      I gotta contest one thing in this, Joe has dehumanized himself too. He’s made himself ‘the man-slut’ with every word he says and every interaction he’s had with others. He very deliberately presents the image that his only thoughts are on sex in the first sentences of every conversation he’s in (even with men.)

      You might say you can’t dehumanize yourself but he’s desperately trying to, so he makes sure that any woman who looks at him only sees a horn-dog, that any woman who flirts with him only expects a ride on the town bicycle.

      It doesn’t hurt his reputation the way it would for a girl, and he is doing it to himself, but he’s doing everything he can to make sure no one thinks of him as a person or could ever imagine he has real feelings on things other than sex. And from the way a lot women react to him he’s succeeding.

      1. Vivid Grim

        i agree. obviously the women he hurts with his actions should be centered, their pain should be centered, but it’s like cerb has been saying the past week or so, and like nelson mandela said: to be a prison guard is to be a prisoner yourself.

    4. Liliet

      Actually, I disagree with the idea that Joe is deliberately deflecting Joyce while knowing she is right. You’ve said that before about him telling Danny that he changed Dorothy’s name in the list, that he’s deliberately deflecting so he doesn’t have to face things. Except the very next strip about these two after that featured Joe trying to figure out how he can make things better. Sure, he made a deflecting movement, but he didn’t actually dismiss the issue and carry on as if nothing happened.

      I think here, he genuinely thinks that Joyce is talking about ‘everything you do matters’ in the ‘God is watching and cares about your moral development’ way. Given Joyce’s usual repertoire, it’s not a weird assumption to make. And the effect of microaggressions is something a lot of people don’t understand. In Joe’s point of view, the only harm done by most of his bullshit is that it makes other people think worse of him, he doesn’t understand the bigger system he’s contributing to, and he’s entirely ignorant of the concept of “PTSD trigger”.

      He does not do the deliberate ‘deflect and ignore’ thing you are saying he does, IMHO.

      1. Socks

        ^ yes, I agree with this assessment.

        Plus, iirc Joe would have no reason to know that Ryan and Joyce had interacted at all. That’s not context he had, going into this conversation, so really, they were having a completely different conversation than the one he thought they were having. He thought this was “your list was mean, and I am overly-concerned about other peoples’ souls, like that time I punched you in the face for having lustful thoughts”, and not, like, “your actions have caused me severe psychological distress both directly and indirectly”. Their interactions have given Joe every reason to think the former, and not really any reason to think of the latter. I mean, yes, we (the omnipotent audience) can see clearly times in which her reaction to Joe was out of panic, but she’d already given him a frame of reference for out-of-proportion reactions when they went on their date. It’s notoriously hard to pick up on minor behavioral differences, when you already know of a reason to explain them away, and you’ve been given no clear reason to question that explanation.

        Basically, I can’t really see an interpretation where deep-down, Joe knows what Joyce is saying, because I’m honestly not sure where he would have gotten the context necessary to do so.

  60. Rukduk

    So essentially Joe’s idea of his own self-worth is “I neither deserve nor want people to care about or treat me as a human being, because all I can do as human being is deeply hurt others and I don’t want that.” So, his logic is that so long as he treats women as objects and they in turn treat him as an object, then he doesn’t end up hurting anybody. This kinda explains a lot. I…I sorta want to give the big guy a hug and tell him that people do care about him while giving him a number for a good therapist. Because his current worldview is so easily twisted into something dangerous. The main difference between Joe and someone like Slashface Ryan Pastorson is that Joe thinks that viewing other people as objects is a way to avoid hurting them, and that Joe views himself as someone no one cares about or even should care about. Joe needs to realize that his objectification of others is having the exact opposite effect of what he claims it does.

  61. Cerberus

    Semi OT conclusion: This comic hits home. Very recently, someone very close to me did a lot of not okay things to me because they are going through a very hard time. And that hard time is causing them for the moment to view me as more of an object than as a person. As someone they can view as a puzzle piece in a larger web whose feelings in the matter don’t matter as much as the hurt they are going through.

    And it really sucks and triggers a lot of bad feelings. Reminders of being denied my right to feel angry or hurt. Of having to scramble to be seen as “worthy” of someone who supposedly has cared for me before. Fears that this once again will be a situation where that mental health situation will tear things apart before it can be repaired.

    What we do and say matters, no matter the state or the reason. Hits just as hard even though I strongly suspect it is more from their mental illness than their heart. Makes me feel like no less of a broken mess.

    People are people and they always matter and their feelings matter.

    And to relate it to Joe again, it is worth noting that he’s having to learn something a lot of other guys growing up have had to learn. That feelings matter. No matter how much they hide or try and deny it, their impact on others’ feelings has worth and impact, sometimes fatally so.

    1. Irredentist

      I think there may be some merit to Joe’s idea of not wanting to get too close to people. If he’s going to be shallow like he says, better to be open about it, so that no one expects anything better when he ultimately lets them down. If you’re prepared for someone to be a dick, you can be more on your guard, and potentially avoid the hurt. Of course, Joyce seems to care about him anyway, so it won’t work at this point.

      1. thejeff

        Except that’s why he’s being shallow, so it’s a loop. And the being shallow still hurts people, even if it might not be as much. It’s more often and more casually.

        The problem is that the lesson that he learned from his dad seems to be that he’s doomed to be shallow and hurt people rather than to avoid that.

    2. Murgatroyd

      Hope you’re getting the support you need, Cerberus.

    3. Rukduk

      *hugs offered*
      I had a very difficult time growing up. Because I realized very early on that others’ feelings mattered, but it took me forever to realize that my feelings mattered. It’s still challenging for me a lot of the time to actually express how I feel, because I don’t want my “silly feelings” to contribute to someone else’s “important feelings.” I’m very sorry about what you’re going through. If it helps at all, I would like to thank you for something. I remember about a half a year or a year ago in the comments that I admitted that I was for the first time actually actively questioning my orientation. And you told me that it was perfectly fine and valid to identify as “questioning” when it came to my romantic and sexual attractions. And I want to say thank you again for that. That helped give me the courage and determination to actually figure out my feelings. And that meant a lot to me. Well, I still haven’t figured things out definitively with how I feel or who I’m attracted to, and I honestly don’t think I ever will entirely understand it. But I do have a much more accurate and honest definition that I can apply to myself than I did before. And I want to thank you for second handedly giving me the strength to examine some feelings that were very confusing for me at the time and actually be honest with myself. Like I said, this new definition doesn’t feel entirely accurate, but it’s miles closer to the truth than when I was still identifying as straight; it’s biromantic with a slight preference for women and I think a form of grey ace. I’m not entirely sure on the ace front, but it just feels like it explains a lot for me. I don’t really want to have sex, but I’d say I’m more “sex ambivalent” than “sex averse”. So, yeah. Feelings do matter, even to random people over the Internet. Reading about your feelings and experiences helped this random near-wreck realize some of his. So, thank you Cerberus.

      1. OnyxIdol

        I feel ya, regarding the “putting others’ feelings before your own” part.

      2. Cerberus

        🙂 I’m really glad I was able to help.

    4. OnyxIdol

      *Hugs offered*

    5. JBento

      “circumstances explain, but do not excuse”.

      Hugs offered.

    6. Bagge

      *All the hugs*

  62. vlademir1

    On a serious note, and not to be stepping Cerberus’ gig of analysis and all ;D, The last three panels here are painful to see, not least because Joe hasn’t really noticed just how much the last just over a month and it’s spiral of events (from the party on through the stabbing) has affected Joyce’s outlook and that what she’s saying here isn’t coming from a religious place but instead as something she’s come to realize about human interactions over that period which he as yet clearly hasn’t and his smug shutting down of it using her religious views is now doubly painful.

    1. DailyBrad

      To be fair, he can pretty rightfully smugly shut down any religious justification on her part, considering he’s, you know, Jewish. It’s patronizing as hell to apply your religious standards to someone of another faith from a place of righteousness.

      1. EvolutionistX

        Um, Jews also believe that your actions matter. Kind of a lot. Tikkun olam and all that.
        Religious Jews, anyway. Joe’s an atheist.

        1. BBCC

          When has Joe ever expressed he’s an atheist? The only one I recall doing so is Dorothy.

        2. EvolutionistX

          I might be mis-remembering. I recall the “I send them home agnostic” line. (might be slight mis-quote) before his date with Joyce. Joe has never that I recall expressed any pro-religious sentiments.

        3. BBCC

          Yeah, he definitely said that, I just thought it was more of his usual ‘Haha, I’m so hot I make girls forego their faith for sex’ bluster. He could be.

        4. Socks

          He may not identify as such, but he behaves identically to every Jew I know (including myself) who doesn’t believe in God, even if it’s more in a casual, never really thought too hard about it way. I’d been reading him that way, anyway. The complete apathy towards religious ceremonies, the view of your Bar Mitzvah as that time your rich relatives gave you huge gobs of cash vs. its intended purpose as a coming of age ritual, that sort of thing.

          So at least that’s how I’d been sort of unthinkingly reading it. I guess we generally tend to assume characters are like ourselves until stated otherwise.

        5. BBCC

          Fair enough! He might very well be. I just wanted to be sure I wasn’t forgetting something because I only remembered Dorothy doing that and Willis once said that the number of self-professed atheists was rather small because this is Indiana and the majority of people believe in God (even if that belief isn’t important to them, like with Billie) back when people were saying Roz was an atheist.

        6. Pablo360

          At the very least he’s certainly not practicing. Although he may still eat kosher, if only out of habit (and because a lot of that is legitimately healthier).

        7. Rectilinear Propagation

          But Jewish people don’t believe their actions matter because of Jesus.

      2. Eldritch Gentleman

        To be fair Christianity has it’s roots in Judaism and share quite a few attitudes and rules (like the Ten Commandments). Many might argue with it but at the root Christianity and Judaism worship the same God.

        1. Liliet

          Based on what I heard from Jewish people, that’s not entirely accurate. It’s part of Christian faith (and Christian-based cultural norm) to think that the Jewish god is the same one as theirs and that Jews just follow ‘an outdated version of Bible’ that they are familiar with as Old Testament. But the actual Jewish faith approaches the core concepts of God, holy books, etc, in an entirely different way that makes the very idea that the Christian “Old Testament God” is the same as the Jewish G-d ridiculous. Like, yeah, Christians think they know what Jewish people believe in, but it’s not accurate according to actual Jewish people, and I’d listen to them over smug self-righteous Christians tbh.

        2. Eldritch Gentleman

          True there are considerable differences. Same God is maybe a bit of a stretch but when it all comes down to it the faith of Jews, Christians and Muslims is aimed at the same identity though vastly differently interpreted.
          For the sake of talking about Joe though I’m pretty sure that Jews have their own version of “Do unto others…”.

        3. Rectilinear Propagation

          But Joe was expecting Joyce’s argument to be Jesus-based, which has nothing to do with him.

        4. Eldritch Gentleman

          True but her advice is fairly “general” when it comes to ethics. Various religions argue about the culture, mythology and all that other stuff but ethics are pretty similar among various religions. I mean, sure, there are differences but most religions seem to agree on “Be nice to other people”, it’s when we get to the interpretation of who those other people are that things get complicated.

        5. thejeff

          Well, other than the stuff about your souls petals being tarnished by sex or whatever the Bambi thumper flapjack nachos she was saying back then.

          Joyce’s Christianity isn’t really that general. Her ethics – particularly in regard to sex – are screwed up in very specific ways.

        6. Socks

          ha ha ha you think we have a consensus on this and haven’t been arguing vociferously for thousands of years

          But seriously, the thing I find coolest about Judaism is its origin as an OLD-ass religion. The torah makes such a huge deal about the god in it being the god OF THE ISREALITES. The first commandment isn’t just “I am the lord your god”, it’s also “thou shalt have no other gods ABOVE ME”. In an era when polytheism was the absolute norm, a religion claiming that its god, who only gives a single shit about ITS people, is better than everyone else’s gods, would have been super totally normal. It’s why the whole “murderizing the crap out of the Egyptians for dubious reasons” thing makes sense. He didn’t care about the Egyptians, I mean, why would he? They’ve got their own, crappy gods. Sucks to be them. From the perspective of a god that’s the supposedly-benevolent god of everyone, that’s a very weird and dissonant thing to do, but from the perspective of one god out of several (who specifically has a favorite group of people dedicated specifically to his worship), it makes much more sense.

          Like, of course there’s the parts in Genesis about this god creating everything, and being the only god and all that, and obviously now jews have the sorts of beliefs you’re probably familiar with, but judaism existed for ages before anyone managed to write anything down. It’s been evolving that whole time, but it undeniably has its roots in a much less universally-applicable, god-of-everything sort of religion. And that’s just cool to me, I don’t know. It’s one of those old animal-sacrificing tribal small-scale religions tied intrinsically with a certain ethnic group, that somehow made it, in part, to modern day. We don’t have a ton of things like that, but Jews are still not eating pork because (ultimately) it was a luxury meat in the middle east three thousand years ago. It’s like how dinosaurs have sort of persisted into modern day via birds, that’s just neat to me. I’m probably offending someone now.

          Oh and Jews only have a “do unto others” insomuch as everyone has that nowadays, because it’s a popular culture thing. We’ve got, like, “love thy neighbor as thyself” from leviticus somewhere in there, and then AROUND the same time as Jesus, a rabbi also said the “do unto others” thing based on that, according to wikipedia, and I think we’re generally supposed to listen to that guy? But I’m gonna be honest, I went to a jewish school for 7 years and I’m not even 100% on the exact canonicity (?) of all the various interpretations of the torah by famous rabbis who wrote stuff down over the years. Like, they do COUNT, they’re what gave us the prohibition on mixing meat and milk in general and that’s a thing people sometimes take very seriously, but also like they change sometimes (the rules about what grains are kosher for passover JUST changed like two years ago) so ?

        7. Eldritch Gentleman

          And yeah… this might be the reason why I kinda gave up on all organized religions. I just try to stick to the “Do unto others” and threw away the rest because it just makes a mess of things…

        8. Socks

          Yeah I bailed when I started questioning the value of prayers and rituals I CLEARLY didn’t really “mean”, just because we were supposed to do them at a certain time of day. Like, sorry, do you really think any of us are genuinely thankful to god for granting us food when we say the whatchamacallit prayer after lunch and before we’re allowed to play on the playground? We’re 10, we’re blatantly rushing through this so we can play handball. All of us are going through the motions and we all know it. A hypothetical omnipotent god CERTAINLY would.

          Which maybe says more about my being a horrible little shit, but, like, yeah.

        9. Eldritch Gentleman

          Teaching religion to kids is really more brainwashing than teaching… You need some maturity and probably some trauma and problems to Need faith…

    2. OnyxIdol

      I wouldn’t call it smug. This ties into what I wrote above. He is attacking Joyce because she forces him to deal with his own emotional distress. This is not about religion, but in this moment Joyce’s faith is a welcome weak point for him to attack.

  63. 3oranges

    Is “everything we do matters more than you know” a callback to anything Joyce said earlier? It doesn’t have to be to work here, of course; it just sounds very familiar in her voice for some reason.

  64. Architex

    Something in Joe’s manner here strikes me as saying that at one point in his past he embraced shallowness because no one in his life expressed meaningful actions towards him.

    1. BenRG

      It isn’t “no-one gets hurt” it’s “I don’t get hurt”. I think that he was hurt too often when he cared (probably specifically about his parents) and soon he decided that it wasn’t worth the pain to keep trying to care about anyone else.

      1. thejeff

        I think it’s both – it’s watching his mother hurt by his dad’s cheating. (And himself by the fighting and the fallout.)
        But he’s internalized his dad’s thinking enough to believe that’s how he’ll have to be, so at least he won’t get into a real relationship where he could hurt someone like that.

        Instead he’ll hurt others all the time in ways he doesn’t even notice. He won’t ever consider the possibility that he doesn’t have to be like his dad.

      2. NotPiffany

        Do we know if Joe ever sees his mom? We know his folks are divorced, and his dad was the one to show up to Freshman Family Weekend, so I wonder if his mom didn’t get custody (or maybe didn’t want it, seeing as how Joe looks so much like his cheating dad).

        1. BBCC

          He definitely sees his mom, at least sometimes. She’s the one who took him to orientation, as he mentioned to Joyce.

        2. Swissaboo

          Sounds like it might very much be a “Every other event is a Dad Thing/Mom Thing” situation, ergo: dad got Freshman Family weekend BECAUSE mom got orientation

  65. Halpful

    darnit. I think I had a bunch of things I wanted to say but I used up all my words earlier today with my therapist (yay we’re back on the same page).
    mostly I think I wanted to talk about DID things though so kinda offtopic for today’s comic anyways. (r/DID is sooo tiny and quiet)

    looks like lots of other people have words though, very nice comments 🙂 yay 🙂

    1. JBento

      Glad you and your therapist have coordinated. 8)

  66. Jordan

    Everyone in this comic (just like real life) has their own issues. Joyce is struggling with PTSD and is having the very foundations of her faith shaken as time goes on. Ethan is struggling with his sexuality in an unhealthy way. Sarah and Joe both struggle with emotional intimacy, though Sarah has had more luck in terms of addressing her issues (to an extent). Amber’s unhealthy attempts at trying to cope with her issues just makes everything worse for herself. Hell, there’s plenty more, but I’m tired and you get the point.

    1. EvolutionistX

      If there were a like button, I’d like your comment.

  67. BenRG

    Before this moment, I don’t think that Joyce realised just how intensely messed up Joe really is.

    1. Danni

      did any of us?

      1. miados

        i suspected.

        1. BenRG

          Yeah, me too.

      2. Joe Covenant

        Yeah, but daren’t even consider mentioning it in case of being turned on and labelled “That Guy” etc… Dontcha know? Joe is a potential rapist…

        1. thejeff

          Less so than I thought, now that we know most of his sexual conquests are bullshit – especially the alcohol fueled threesomes.
          Worrying about Joe as a potential rapist was completely reasonable. He showed a lot of signs of being dangerous.

        2. thejeff

          None of which conflicts with him being messed up, by the way.

        3. Vivid Grim

          yikes.

        4. Delicious Taffy

          I feel like this is coming from a personal place. Is it because your username is also Joe? Don’t worry, nobody’s calling you a potential rapist, just the fictional character.

      3. foamy

        I’m on record as saying so, I believe.

  68. Severing

    Oh, Joe.

    =(

  69. Eldritch Gentleman

    Her asshole puncher is acting out again XD

  70. Tarmaniel

    So Joe’s dad is basically my dad. Can confirm that experiencing that does not do good things for your brain. The constant two-step internal dialogue is not fun to deal with. Brain goes from, “How can dad treat people this way?” to “How dare you shit on your father like that for one mistake, he brought you up and paid for your college and has supported you your whole life, you selfish prick” to “How did Mom utterly fail to notice this was going on? I don’t even live there and I noticed it was going on.” to “Oh so now you’re blaming Mom for getting cheated on. You really are a terrible person, this is why your last girlfriend left you.”

    Suffice it to say I’m really starting to understand how people develop drinking problems.

  71. Sylphiod

    I hope Joyce doesn’t hit joe, in the next strip.
    I have a strong dislike of those who hit others not self-defence or are overly harmful. It’s why I really dislike Amber for example, (my last comment on an Amber was a misjudgement of her expression and I already took it back.)
    I do hope it is her realizing what she said to Amber was wrong. Anyways I’m already prepared to hear why I’m wrong and it’s okay to hit people you dislike. And just to reply to that. No.
    Do you think it’s okay to for someone to hit you, if not then why is it okay for someone else to get hit.

    1. BenRG

      Amber has never hit anyone that she dislikes. She’s hit someone that she’s perceived, in one way or another, to be a threat to others or to society in general. Her motives for doing so are eccentric to say the least but she’s not hitting them necessarily because of any feelings she has on the matter.

      1. Regina Phalange

        Eh, there’s kinda a fine line between perceiving someone to be a threat and disliking them, especially with Amber/AG. When she specifically sought out Sal’s gang because of her vendetta against Sal, then provoked them until they made a move so she would have that “they threw the first punch” excuse, was it because they were a threat or because she just really wanted to fight Sal? There are definitely other, non-Blaine/Toedad/Ryan examples when she lets her personal hangups influence when she is violent, but I’m not sure this is the best thread to discuss AG at length.

  72. Carms

    you don’t get to ‘let’ things you do matter. 🙁

  73. Carms

    also, I’m not sure- she’s been in gender studies class, but does she explicitly understand the connection between Joe’s overt attitudes and her assault by Ryan? Does she get rape culture? cos I feel like that’s what she’s actually referencing, rather than her faith.
    Which might be a tough thing for her to realise, when Joe mocks her faith, that she’s not actually being a god-botherer right now- the realm in which this stuff matters is this one, not the higher plane she’s accustomed to living for.

    1. Arioch

      I think that might be exactly it. That’s the thing, Joyce isn’t stupid. She’s never been stupid. Naive, yes, but not stupid. I think there are a lot of things that she has realized, that she thought all the other people already knew. I don’t think she’s gonna hit Joe, but I think she’s about word vomit the crap out of him.

  74. darkoneko

    “don’t make me sprain my other wrist.”

  75. Arianod

    Uh-oh…

  76. Vulcanodon

    “Mistakes are as big as the results they cause” – Gregory House, MD

    You don’t make a mistake smaller by having comedic intentions. And anyway there’s enough information out there to make it harder to call it a “mistake”.

    She might be about to go off about Jesus, but I don’t think so. This looks more like “Have you now noticed anything that’s happened this semester?” Donuts don’t “fix” anything. They’re just a way to say “I’m sorry.”

    I used to have a boss who was something of a moral idiot; he’d do shitty things and then say “Let me make it up to you, I’ll buy you lunch.” Like, dude, I really need this job because I got kids and all, and I’m not in a position to say I’d rather go hungry than have lunch with you right now.”

  77. Josh Spicer

    I think him pausing and grabbing her wrist is him realizing something.

    I think he’s gonna walk away (or Joyce is) and he’s gonna have his “well fuck” moment.

    Or nothing will change and go back to the way it was making these entire panels pointless which would be a very VERY stupid waste of time and I feel like I know David better than that as a writer to do something that stupid.

    1. BenRG

      I think that Joyce is about to let it all out in a way she’s never been able to her parents, to Dorothy or even to Becky. The word ‘triggered’ is too easily used these days but I think it has really happened with Joyce: Joe’s moral apathy and attempt to shrug off that it’s even a character flaw is just the final straw that broke the camel’s back.

      I’m wondering if Joyce’s rant will be angry, sad or just god-damned tired, oh god I am so done with this shit.

    2. Delicious Taffy

      He’s not grabbing her wrist. She is. His hands are like the size of her head, and his skin is a completely different shade. She does this reflexively, and it’s not even the first time. The art is not that ambiguous.

  78. UniqueSnowflake2

    Joe, you better let somebody love you before it’s too late.

    1. 3oranges

      Deeeeeesperajoe

  79. Jago

    Slow realization, but he’s there now.

    Also, jeez, Joe. He’s really guarded, isn’t he? He doesn’t want people to care about him, so he can’t hurt them in any way, because if you start to care, you can get hurt. If it doesn’t matter, it can’t hurt anyone. But sadly, it’s not that simple.

  80. C.T Phipps

    So, Joe goes to mock her religion while talking to the sexual assault survivor and person who has also been involved in a kidnapping attempt? Joyce is a person who has seen epic amounts of good vs. evil in a very short time. Is Joe ACTUALLY that dense?

    1. thejeff

      It’s not clear Joe knows about the sexual assault – even after Ryan’s stabbing.

      And she has preached at him often enough that mocking her religion is something of a defensive reflex at this point.

      And most importantly, he catches himself this time, when he sees from Joyce’s face that this is different.

      1. NotPiffany

        I’d be surprised if Joe knew about the sexual assault. Walky was the one told about it after the fact, not Joe. He might have heard that Ryan was looking for someone specific at the dorm, but it’s unlikely that anyone other than Amber, the group involved in the “do we go to the police?” discussion, and maybe Ethan would know exactly who that was.

        The only way I could see Joe knowing about Joyce’s run-in with Ryan would be if Ethan told Jacob, and then Jacob told Joe, but either of those steps strikes me as unlikely.

    2. Liliet

      Joyce does not wear a badge saying ‘sexual assault survivor’, nor ‘has been involved in a kidnapping attempt’. Sure, her closest friends and floormates (aka Sal) know about those, but Joe is not in that circle, and he doesn’t know SHIT about what Joyce has gone through and where she’s coming from here. Sure, she’s texted him about the tension with her parents, but he didn’t even know enough to understand that church was not going to be a safe haven. Joe is ignorant of all the ways in which his bullshit touches Joyce’s nerve, and he might just be about to find out. Exciting!

      1. Kamino Neko

        Unless Joe’s completely shut off from the world (not, granted, unlikely), he knows about the Toedad incident. Everybody knows about it. It was a very public incident. It’s not like the rape attempt, where Joyce could (or had reason to want to) keep it quiet.

        1. Socks

          It’s not immediately apparent that everyone knows the exact people involved? I know Robin’s sort of out of the loop overall, but she didn’t put together that Joyce was involved in the kidnapping gun thing until pointed out to her. And Becky’s been low profile enough that she managed to live in the dorms for much longer than maybe would have made sense if her face were plastered on the news.

          I mean maybe everyone knows Joyce was involved, I’m just not sure there’s evidence to support that.

        2. Fart Captor

          I think it doesn’t really matter either way.

          Joe shouldn’t NEED to know about either event to realize his behavior is harmful. He’s been told, repeatedly, that it is. Not just to people who have been traumatized. That’s why everyone keeps telling him it’s gross and he should stop. It’s never enough to convince him though, until someone gets upset or angry

        3. thejeff

          But that’s kind of the point here, and it may be part of Joyce’s response – his actions matter because they affect other people, even if he’s shallow and no one has emotional connections to him. He can still hurt people.

          But, returning to counter C.T Phipps, he doesn’t have to be exceptionally dense because he doesn’t know Joyce is especially vulnerable – he just has to be normally dense.

    3. Rectilinear Propagation

      Is hand-waving the religious argument you thought was coming the same thing as mocking it?

      Because not to long ago Joyce was bringing up religion to explain her position on just about everything. He’s rolling his eyes because he’s heard it before, and frequently, not because he thinks there’s something particularly wrong with Christianity.

      1. thejeff

        Well, I’m pretty sure he thinks there’s something particularly wrong with Joyce’s version of Christianity.
        As does nearly everybody in the comic.
        As do I.

        1. Rectilinear Propagation

          Well, OK, but I mean that Joe’s reaction here is more like everyone’s reaction in this strip:

          http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/ruthandbillie/

  81. Guest42

    I think she’s upset because she wasn’t being religious. She wants Joe to matter because she considers him a friend and wants all of her friends to matter.

    And then Joe just reminded her she wasn’t thinking in terms of religion, which will just make her more sad.

    But I could be way off.

    1. OBBWG

      I think this is on target. She is furious (my take) or sad (another valid take) that he is claiming her logic is based on religion. In the past six weeks (comic time) almost her entire experience has been individuals doing things that matter. Joe is demonstrably wrong and not because her religion says so. I hope she will make that clear in tomorrow’s strip.

  82. Jdorr

    I am going to predict that Joyce is going to start yelling at Joe about he does have people who care about him, getting all worked up and having joe have to console her (platonicly) while he begins to realize “oh I do have people who care about me”

  83. Vulcanodon

    It’s a funny thing how emotional pain exacerbates physical pain. Her wrist isn’t completely healed. Joe has said some hurtful things to her; she’s feeling it in her gut, and in her wrist.

    1. thejeff

      IIRC, the holding her wrist thing goes back before she sprained it punching Toedad to her trauma from Ryan.

      1. thejeff

        Here, for example.

        1. McBogue

          You’re right, it’s not the wrist – it’s the hand she cut smashing the glass into Ryan’s face.

          http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/allergies/

        2. Vulcanodon

          I have had both hand lacerations and wrist injuries, and that looks like wrist pain to me. The cut was very minor and on the palm, has almost certainly healed completely by now, and she is cradling her wrist. In any case, whatever the cause of the physical pain, it is increased in the emotional context of the moment.

        3. thejeff

          The point is, it has little to nothing to do with the physical pain, it’s been a standard reaction of hers to reminders of trauma since Scarface. It predates her wrist injury.
          Look at the page I linked earlier – that’s before the happy fun gun times and she’s holding her hand in almost exactly the same way.
          I suppose it could be phantom physical pain flaring up again in stressful moments, but it could just as easily be a purely psychological response.

        4. BBCC

          Joyce tends to cradle her wrist when she looks at where her cut was though. It’s become a sort of visual shorthand for her thinking about that party.

  84. Vivid Grim

    characterizing peoples’ reactions to joe, which are based in real life experiences with rape culture and misogyny and victimhood, as saying ‘joe is literally satan and a rapist’ isn’t the best look

    1. IllogicalBobcat

      People really hate Joe. That’s okay though, I hate Joyce.

  85. Vivid Grim

    also same, joe, same

  86. Remmington Steele

    Joyce is in love.

  87. C.T Phipps

    Joyce looks like she’s about to recite a parable from the Paladin Warrior, Optimus Prime.

    “GIVE ME YOUR FACE!”

    🙂

    Mind you, some find the Book of Bay apocryphal.

  88. Smooti

    no, joe, because your actions have consequences here and now not just in any sort of afterlife

    people are affected by your actions even if you try to excuse them as you being shallow or think that because no one was surprised it was you that said it, that what you said didn’t hurt.

    1. C.T Phipps

      The problem with Nihilism in college is a lot of people miss the other half. It’s the same with Nietzsche.

      As Terry Pratchett said, “If nothing you do matters, all that matters is what you do.”

      In Fred’s version, “If all morality is ultimately man made, you should make the best morality you can.”

  89. Emperor Norton II

    NOT Joe’s situation, just a real-life example of how toxic masculinity is created:

    https://twitter.com/boguspress/status/896501273989480448

  90. CoMa

    I personally feel Joyce seems incredibly sad in the last panel – a bit angry, but mostly sad (because of Joe, and for him)…

  91. Furie

    Why does everyone think she’s going to punch Joe? Looks to me like she’s upset for him. And I think she’s cradling the hand she injured when she glassed Ryan at the party. Could well be that she’s about to school him on how easily viewing people as less than human can make him that way himself.

    1. Puckish Rogue

      I suspect because some (not all) are seeing Joe as representing all that is wrong with being a male in America today and Joyce is all that is good therefore Joyce punching Joe would feel very satisfying

      However while it might do good and feel good in the short term, long term it won’t help Joe and in fact might make him feel like that’s what he deserves so everythings ok and he doesn’t need to do anything else and Joyce needs to learn that you can’t solve most problems by punching

      I’m wondering if Joyce is going to break down and, seeing that, Joe finally gets the repercussions of his actions as I get the feeling that seeing a girl break down and cry because of something he said is something that would really affect his personal code

      Mind you I don’t think I’ve ever predicted anything correctly in this comic

      1. thejeff

        We’ve already seen Joyce punch Joe. I doubt we’re going to see it again. I don’t think that’s her punchy face anyway. Much more of a distraught one.

        And with holding the hand – damn, did he just trigger her? Is she seeing him as Ryan? Even just for a moment.

        1. Puckish Rogue

          I’ve always liked Joe and its because I can identify with him more than others, I’ve been Joe at times (not quite so over the top though) and, based on that, if Joe learns that his behaviour is reminding Joyce of Ryan I’d say he’d be completely mortified

          My guess is that Joe sees himself as the complete opposite of Ryan so if someone like Joyce, a girl still willing to talk to him, sees him as threatening, well its the type of thing that can make a guy seriously question himself

    2. Rectilinear Propagation

      I honestly don’t know. People seem to think that Joe is being particularly offensive in this strip even though people groaning at Joyce bringing up Jesus is a thing: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/ruthandbillie/

      1. Puckish Rogue

        I think posters on here get frustrated that the characters they like (and don’t like) aren’t doing what they “should” be doing, mainly because the characters aren’t privy to the same information that we have

        I’m guilty of it myself at times

    3. Furie

      Boom, nailed it.

      Fantastic use of body language, Willis.

  92. JA

    Damn Joe, there’s just some lines you don’t cross.

  93. athan1214

    No, because she cares Joe :/

  94. Larkle

    Right, because not thinking of human beings as human beings is a great motto which has never led to anything horrible.

  95. Charles

    I see what you did here. This is just a rewrite of Roomies! Consequences. Well done!

  96. Orion Fury

    “How bad things would be if people cared about me, if what I did mattered?” It’s a bit of a challenge to not read this as Jow suffering from depression, and just accepted a facade to hide behind to minimize the pain he’s feeling and causes others.

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