Of course not! Batman TAS was an unoriginal adaptation of a franchise that was old BEFORE ITS TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC’S PARENTS WERE BORN. You can’t be visionary when you’re hobbled to the pa-
*this user has been banned by the site admin*
Skizz
People said that? Like not sarcasticly?
Rutee
Batman TAS is one of the sacred cows of nerd dom, but there might have been an iconoclast.
I wonder how it /does/ rate at originality. I don’t really know enough about batman, nor remember the series, well enough to say.
Orion Fury
Gave us Harley Quinn, a not one-dimensional Mr Freeze, and probably a bunch of other touches.
Joe
It gave us Harley Quinn, who gave us the immortal line “Doncha wanna ride your Harley?”, which is the greatest thing to ever somehow make it past network censors.
EvilMidnightLurker
“Ride” was the one that didn’t make it. “Rev up” was what they substituted. 😀
Roborat
Did she then look at the camera and say: “Goodnight everybody.”?
Michael
No, sorry, the greatest thing to ever somehow make it past network censors was Animaniac’s “finger Prince” joke.
Renee Montoya was also created for TAS, though the comics writers liked her so much they added her in an issue which came out before her first appearance in the show.
AndroidDreams
*pssst* hey, if you’re looking for an original batman series to wrap your head around, try this *opens coat* “The Batman” cartoon network series in the early 2000s. It kept characters relevant while evolving plotline with introductions to beloved villains. The only series for the discerning masked vigilante
.
Rutee
I’m really not. Batman is usually horrible, regardless of the quality of the entertainment he’s in. Quite possibly one of my least favorite fictional entities. But the thought did occur to me that it’s possible that one of nerd-dom’s sacred cows might not actually be /good/. That certainly does happen.
Kris
Batman horrible?!…….I’d say that’s mostly up to whoever writes him. Although he has had some pretty ass backwards interpretations.
Sunny
For what it’s worth, I recently rewatched the entire series, and it did hold up. I didn’t have a single moment of “I liked THIS as a child? What the hell drugs was I on?”. Some episodes were better, some were a bit worse, the afterschool special episode stuck out like a sore thumb, but none of them were plain bad.
Every character is given some depth, though being a cartoon there’s no genuinely cartoonish villain I can recall, even the Joker and Croc have their moments of humanity.
Not every episode is a masterpiece, and I’m sure there are things to be found that can be criticised, but overall, Batman TAS is good.
trlkly
Seems to me that calling a character others like “horrible” would be the type of thing Dorothy would warn against. But I guess we have a pretty good comments section that didn’t blow that out of proportion.
Like all nerd fights, it takes two.
Rutee
Uh, okay. Meanwhile I’m going to sit here, an American terrified of vigilante justice because people see Batman and Rorschach and think COOL!, and one of those is actually a thing the narrative is usually saying.
I really couldn’t care less what Dorothy would have to say (not the least of which because she is enamored with a vigilante right now). And I REALLY don’t care about what you have to say because nerd fights are the worst thing ever. The automatic assumption that nerds should like batman irritates me, because it is almost always uncritical.
DarkVeghetta
And here ^ is where the reason why you hate it becomes clear: it’s not the execution, nor the depth, nor anything to do with the series as a experience – your problem with it stems from a apparent loathing of the concept of vigilante justice. Fair enough, though I would be remiss to not point out that Batman:TAS was nothing if not accepting of other’s differences and was quite adamant in preaching understanding of even your perceived foes. I also think it’s the first cartoon I remember that had bisexual characters. I (am pretty sure I) understand your concern, but it is misplaced.
Rutee
Yes. I said as much. I indicated *BATMAN* is horrible, “Regardless of the quality of his entertainment”. I take no position on whether a given Batman thing I don’t remember is GOOD. *Batman*, the idea, and what he consistently stands for, is horrible.
I have no opinion on Batman:TAS. I don’t dislike it, and I don’t like it. I academically asked whether it was actually TEH SUPAR ORIGINAL (which it clearly wasn’t; that’s fine and all, but my point was less ‘it’s bad for this’ and more ‘and that’s fine, because originality isn’t important’), and whether it might be good. I offer no values on that goodness, because I don’t know. But whether or not Batman:TAS is good, Batman is basically horrible. It’s nigh-on unicorn rare for Batman to be presented as a broken individual who is causing harm. Because he’s the hero of the franchise.
And whether Batman:TAS ‘accepts other people’s differences’, has nothing to do with the simple core of “Broken man afflicting his brokenness on everything around him”. Batman is the person with the least excuse to become the superhero he did – his origin story is “Something traumatic happened to me, so I will ultimately inflict similar trauma on other children elsewhere in order to prevent the exact same trauma from happening again.”
He could have entered politics and done more good than his standard street sweeping, until we get to “Gotham is sick and broken because of an ancient magic curse”, which postdates TAS by at least 15 years or more. His ARCHVILLAIN is someone who, in TAS, is someone who would have done FAR less harm if Bats had never gotten involved. The Joker was just a smart crook until batman knocked him into an acid vat (But technically didn’t kill him!) Now he’s The God Damned Joker, who I’m pretty sure isn’t quite an omnicidal maniac in TAS, but is still fucking evil in ways well beyond “I kill money and kill when it’s more convenient to do so”. And The Joker is not the only Rogue he made worse than has to be, assuming the Standard Mr. Freeze Origin Plot.
But yeah no, tell yourself that Batman is Fine and I, Rutee, Should Be Okay With Him because you called him Politically Correct. My problem with Batman is that he’s a vigilante who primarily concerns himself with, on a time-basis, low-level villains. I have the same problem with Spiderman. They’re doing the least useful plausible vigilante thing, that they don’t even have an excuse to invest heavily in, and in Batman’s case, Batman has the power to do far more good within the law.
You don’t understand my concern. And don’t you dare try to claim Harley (and maybe Ivy?) being bi as the show being fine in every respect. Given that it took them 20 fucking years to actually say that was canon (Which, whether I like it or not, is EXTREMELY important to not getting harrassed by nerds), they score no fucking points for it. Especially not when I’m reasonably confident it wasn’t intended – this isn’t relevant to its value to gay or bi people, but it’s DAMNED sure relevant to whether we give people kudos for it.
Michael
I’m not going to say you should be okay with him. However, I am one person who loved Batman TAS while strongly disliking most other Batman media because 1. other media doesn’t usually hammer home that Bruce has a problem and being Batman is not healthy, and 2. TAS’s batman is not this forever gritty grimdark douchebag punching all the criminals, he also funds rehabilitation programs (as Bruce) and actively tries to help criminals getting back onto the right path if they want to.
This Tumblr post better describes why I love TAS while not caring much for the Bat’s other interpretations: http://kryallaorchid.tumblr.com/post/85762466740/fabula-unica-underwater-carpentry
DarkVeghetta
Such anger. Suppose I’ll leave it at that since you’re clearly upset and there’s no point in escalating this by further debate. Good day.
Sunny
At a glance, you kinda contradict yourself. At first you say that Batman is the hero and as such cannot be shown to be a broken individual who inflicts harm by his actions. A few paragraphs later you go out and and say that Batman makes some situations worse and causes some of the villains to do more harm than if he hadn’t intervened.
And yeah, you may well be right about the joker in B:TAS (though not about Mr. Freeze, and I’m not sure B:TAS follows the “acid vat” origin story, the Joker has had so many backstories that it’s essentially impossible to say which is the true canonical one, but I digress…), but the series doesn’t gloss over it imo, and in one episode even makes it a major plot point that ultimately remains unanswered, leaving it up to the viewer to make up their own mind. Yes, Batman is the protagonist, and usually ends up being a net benefit if you consider harm done versus harm prevented, but he has his critics even among the good guys. Bullock is the main one there, and while it’s tempting to dismiss him as a fat, cliched, donut-devouring sourpuss, he’s also shown to be courageous, unbribeable, and a very efficient investigator.
When you say that Batman’s motivation amounts to “Something traumatic happened to me, so I will ultimately inflict similar trauma on other children elsewhere in order to prevent the exact same trauma from happening again” you’re just being silly. I don’t recall Batman killing anyone’s parents in front of them, so… yeah. You’re exaggerating there to the point where you make no sense any more. Dial back a bit and maybe we can have a fruitful discussion about that.
As for the lesbian relationship between Harly and Ivy not havin been intended… My pet theory is that it was pushed past the execs and regulatory bodies by making it so overt and ham-fisted that it went right through people’s legs (as opposed to over their heads). It may not have been a planned effort by the studio or DC Comics, but someone on the creative team definitely wanted to put it out there.
Touchfuzzy
The appeal of vigilante superhero comics is that a desire for things to be that simple. At least in my opinion. I’m not fond of Batman (mostly because the whole, better than everyone at everything thing is just tiresome), but Spider-Man for instance is a character I really do enjoy.
Life isn’t that simple, but it would be nice if it was.
And what do you think about the X-Men. A team that is hated and hunted for what they are, who do practice vigilante justice, but specifically because the government is unable or unwilling to deal with the problems surrounding a minority.
Yes, in reality, that would be somewhat horrifying. But in fiction. It’s a nice bit of power fantasy. It’s a complex problem simplified into a bit of wish fulfilment.
(Also, technically, the 60s TV show Batman was not a vigilante at all, he worked with the police and government, so maybe all incarnations don’t fit under your original hatred (this is meant mostly as a joke))
Touchfuzzy
Basically, sometimes I wish we could just punch evil in the face.
Rutee
Whether someone is ‘a’ hero and ‘the’ hero narratively are totally dissimilar things, so no, I didn’t contradict myself. He is generally a bastard. The narrative generally treats what he does as right. These are two things that don’t have to relate to each other, but in his case, generally do. Batman can, and does, suggest morally reprehensible bullshit and the universe will say “yeah that’s about right, good call Bats.”
If TAS is an exception, great. It might hold up for /me/ if I rewatched it (which I’m not going to. I spend most of my free time playing video games, not watching TV. Nothing agin’ it, it’s just not what I do.) But Batman, as a whole, generally has this as an enormous problem.
And no, Batman doesn’t kill people’s kids in front of them. That’s why I said he avoids doing the EXACT SAME THING. What he does, is he throws them off in prison, for what is by the numbers, more likely a crime of necessity than anything else. He’s denying kids their parents – he’s just not doing it by murder. Hence, ‘similar’. What happened to him is worse, sure. I don’t see why that justifies his bullshit street sweeping, especially given that he seems to know it doesn’t do anything in most iterations (hence the damn speeches on how the city is dying etc etc). I’m not ‘exaggerating’. I’m just uncomfortably aware of what it is prison actually IS in the USA, and where crime generally comes from. Arkham Asylum actually doesn’t stand in much better, given that it seems to be where Joker’s gangmates come from, even if prior to going crazy trying to understand the joker, Harley was genuinely trying to help people.
As far as the X-Men, they’re more interesting for how they play into respectability politics than they are for using their superpowers. Given that the ones who seem to get slots on the team are usually capable of rather absurd bullshit, them fighting back against civilians strikes me as the definition of excessive force, but I’m pretty sure Sentinels are actually a thing that cartoon didn’t make up, so there’s at least that. As far as I’m aware, the X-Men usually just fight supervillains, which when they’re not The Black Panthers but Mutant-flavored, is fine. Batman and Spider Man don’t have problems where they’re fighting supervillains either, /by and large/ (The Acid-vat story, regardless of it’s SUPER TRUE CANONICITy, bc I give a fuck about canon, and Mr. Freeze, are the exceptions here). Supervillains represent a threat you actually need something superhuman /for/. It’s what makes them /super/villains (and yeah this probably makes some bat rogues questionable, since I don’t remember all their schticks. I guess Nigma might have stolen the crown jewels or something important in an episode at least?) There’s nothing disproportionate about that, and since supervillain motivations are often not remotely grounded in anything realistic (Chairface Chippendale wanted to get his name on the moon!), there’s little else to be said. Where they start to mirror real world groups, you can have problems (Everything I’ve seen of the X-Men indicates a very tumultuous relationship with groups like the Black Panthers, sometimes recognizing that respectability politics is bullshit, sometimes buying into establishment groups), but even where supervillains /have/ human motives, they’re still generally doing something wrong that ‘has’ to be solved with violence.
So, bringing /that/ back to Batman, in theory, if he spent his time politicking and basically didn’t bother with small thugs (Whom fall under the province of the police, and which he’s not really doing much about with crime fighting measures anyway), I’d actually be fine with him. Then he dons the suit because let’s say, Ivy’s robbing the zoo. And that can /work/ as a cartoon.
Batman is a superhero I’m pretty against, but Batman in a Giant Robot (Roger Smith, of Big O) works fine, because he’s not, you know, broken and inflicting his broken on Paradigm. Heck, while his giant robot often punches out other giant robots, a lot of the problem solving is ultimately about other matters entirely, and the only person who ends up in prison is the well-to-do thief with a giant robot who’s doing it just because he can. And while itd oesn’t have to work out THAT nicely for the non-super villains, it… definitely ought to be closer than the whole ‘grab them all, throw them in prison, THAT will prevent a child from going through the trauma I did (while neatly ignoring the similar trauma I’m causing because I didn’t kill anyone to do it)’
fwtrump
Actually, with the more well written Batman stories, he isn’t dealing with the petty theft people and the joe shmoe criminals. On more than one occasion he tries to give people a second chance, sometimes as Batman and sometimes as Bruce Wayne. The “normal” people Batman targets are usually Mafia types, only going for the lesser dregs of the group usually to get intel on what is going on.
He doesn’t deal with crime of necessity types unless their necessity is something a bit more dangerous or again mob related. The best written Batman iterations are not the vigilante thug Batman, but the one who listens and tries to help as both identities.
I will admit there are often depictions of Batman in terms of only his more action oriented BASH ALL CRIMINALS EFFORTLESSLY BRAA… Usually the movies and videogames… and part of the 90’s dark and gritty stages… But the Batman I know (and I do not claim to be the outright expert so I know things will be picked apart) knows when to try to talk as well as when to kick butt. He knows the system is broken and corrupt, but he is trying to fix it as best as he can while keeping the broken parts form getting more and more out of control. It ends up being cylindrical (with both the prisons and Arkham creating and bolstering the ranks of the villains), but he does try to fix those issues on the outside (Bruce Wayne) and the inside (Batman).
I liked The Batman a lot…but I tend to keep that quiet, because this was Not A Popular Opinion back when the show was on the air, and thus people were discussing it more than occasionally.
Daibhid C
I liked The Batman, once I accepted it wasn’t “More B:TAS but we’re calling it something else now”. I got the impression a lot of people never did.
I also liked B:TBATB. Still on the fence about Beware the Batman, though.
ganymedeanoutlaw
I’m surprised that somebody’s acknowledging it at all. It’s the only Batman cartoon I ever saw, and I don’t really see people talking about it.
Jacques Cornelius Parrot III
Seriously though, The Batman was actually way better than I thought it would be when I first saw commercials. The Clayface origin/evolution was actually really emotionally impactful.
Maxy
I watched a few episodes of ‘The Batman’. The first three, to be precise. I’m fine with changing the characters, but those three were just so… Predictable. Also, it felt kinda dumb to have The Penguin acting as an intimidating physical opponent to friggin’ Batman. (The Joker was a little iffy, but at least it kinda-sorta fit.)
I got into The Batman a few years ago. One thing I really liked is how they had Batgirl start as the sidekick BEFORE Robin. She was an excellent character, put to very good use on the Maxie Zeus episode.
Yeah, the series didn’t have the psychological depth of B:TAS, but it was pretty fun at times.
Yatsude Hatte
I also would point out the cool tie of Poison Ivy to Batgirl to give her a better personal nemesis than Kiler Moth.
Agreed, though I’m sad they didn’t do quite as much with that connection as B:TAS did with Bruce/Harvey.
NaYa
Should I be concerned that you’re carrying those around under your coat…?
Kris
It’s partly (some would say solely) responsible for how we see the character Batman portrayed today. It was dark Batman in a time where the most recognizable version of him was the Adam West tv show and Superfriends.
Rutee
…does it not postdate The Dark Knight Returns?
*Checks*
It does. So no, this isn’t really an indicator towards ‘originality’ (I should clarify, ‘originality’ is kind of pointless and not actually a concern of mine, but I did wonder if it was true.
Ah, and yes, it probably is partially responsible for Dark Batman in public perception, in that it helped keep it alive in the public in the middle of… very silly Batman movies (I’m pretty sure he was better remembered for… wozzit, Batman and Robin? Where Ivy kills people by making out with them? Either way, recent movies, not Adam West), so they were less shocked with the Nolan movies. Definitely not solely, but almost definitely partially.
StClair
the first Keaton Batman movie was an earnest attempt to make Batman serious, following the trend in the comics at the time (just as 60s Batman, for all that we mock it now, was a mirror of the comics of ITS time, and for that we can pretty much thank Wertham and the Comics Code for forbidding anything more serious *spit*). It’s a bit silly in spots nevertheless, but unintentionally so. The really silly stuff didn’t start to creep in until, oh, the third movie.
Really, the 1989 Batman influences are pretty clear, including the reuse of Danny Elfman’s fantastic new theme for the character, the design of the Batmobile, etc etc.
Rutee
Yeah, I was pretty sure we were in full on SERIOUS GRIM Batman mode at this point, comic-wise. And yeah, even as a kid I could tell it wasn’t supposed to be silly it just… was. Well, BnR, anyway, I don’t really remember anything about the others, though I’d be impressed if the Riddler one was serious, which you seem to be indicating it wasn’t, and the Penguin one was not something I was allowed to see, but looked serious.
StClair
Batman (1989): Michael Keaton and Joker (Jack Nicholson). Batman Returns (1992): Keaton, Penguin (Danny DeVito) and Catwoman (Michelle Pfieffer). Batman Forever (1995): Val Kilmer, Riddler (Jim Carrey) and Two-Face (Tommy Lee Jones). Batman and Robin (1997): George Clooney, Mr. Freeze (Arnold Schwarzenegger) and Poison Ivy (Uma Thurman).
that last one killed the franchise until Nolan revived it in 2005, 8 years later.
SgtWadeyWilson
@StClair actually, if I remember correctly, the original plan for the 60’s Batman was a serious take with the actor from the then recent Tarzan as Bats, but then Hugh Hefner(I may have misspelled his name, but I don’t care enough to look it up) showed the really old campy Batman movie at a party. This caused a bunch of people to set up showings at colleges and stuff (like some sort of proto-hipsters). Seeing the popularity of this campy Batman, the series was retooled before the Tarzan actor even had two pictures taken in the Batsuit. So actually, despite Adam West’s Batman bringing the character and comics more attention, the comics regressed back out of a newly refound seriousness to mirror the show.
I learned that ‘fun’ fact from a comics history class, so I figured I’d share.
i think the thing i liked about it is that it really…played with the short story format in interesting ways? like i guess what i’m comparing it to internally is Twilight Zone, although TZ was probably much better. but it ended up doing a lot of character studies that were just. really good for cartoons, i think. there are a lot of people who end up liking the villains much better than batman because they were allowed to…screw up, essentially. and there’s something very cathartic about that. i feel like it really codified Batman as He Should Be – ethical traumatized isolated dude with too much money, hahaha.
but, yeah, a lot of the love probably holds to nostalgia. which, i don’t think is necessarily a bad reason to love something, but you gotta know what you’re doing, as with most things. sometimes you love something for how terrible it is.
and then sometimes you love something because, screw the system, nobody can stop you. exhibit a: my stephanie brown avatar
…honestly i would Not Be Surprised if a lot of the love for batman tas comes from how terrible most comic books are
Sanchez
The best thing about Batman:The Animated Series (at least in my opinion) is the art direction and story telling. It was much more dark than many animated shows of its time, even up until now, and was very “film noir” in its direction. I am a fan of Batman, but it was the animated series that made me curious. Of course if you don’t care for Bruce Wayne period you’re SOL haha. It’s worth it for the art at least.
that scene with Two-Face and the lightning strike sent chills down my spine, hahahaa. and Joker’s Favor is absolutely a classic. also i really love Mask of the Phantasm and can never get over Bruce believing he doesn’t deserve to be happy like NO, DON’T, BRUCE, NO, IT’S OKAY, YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE MISERABLE, GDI GET A THERAPIST. and batman beyond is such a good continuation
there are a lot of things to love about it! the art deco stylization is so distinctive and i’m never going to get over the title sequence in MotP being just the credits sung backwards or like. just the title sequence from btas. that’s such beautiful storytelling, so short and succinct and perfect. but yes
StClair
zoelogical: All of this.
There was a bit in the comic that ran alongside the (animated) Justice League where the Phantom Stranger shows Flash (who got in an argument with Batman earlier) what Bruce’s first Christmas after Crime Alley was like. He opens all his expensive presents from Alfred without enthusiasm, until he gets to the Grey Ghost playset. And for a moment, he’s a little boy again, jumping around the living room with the toy plane…
And then little Bruce catches sight of that big portrait of his parents over the mantel. And says, “I’m sorry.” For forgetting his vow. For being happy. Just for a moment.
He thanks Alfred (not noticing the tear the latter sheds) and asks him to please take care of the presents, while he goes downstairs to train some more. And a much chastened Flash quietly tells the Stranger he’s seen enough.
that’s almost as sad as The Brave and the Bold Bruce origin story
Rutee
Hm, I guess that’s possible, but I would think it’d be a hard thing to notice for a kid (at least, in the same way; like, I think most of my objections wouldn’t occur to a kid, but it still might be deeply unentertaining for them). TAS did air for a long time in syndication, right? Folks coulda easily gone back to it later, if it did, after trying out batman comics.
Definitely possible. I mean, no idea if it’s true, but possible.
i did kind of come to it as a college student, hahaha. i was probably a newborn when BTAS started airing, and I never had cable or Cartoon Network growing up.
i think kids – especially young kids – would probably process it more on an aesthetic level. like a lot of toddlers don’t necessarily understand everything that’s going on in a Disney movie, but they can see the pretty princess and the prince and the villain and understand what’s going on. Or understand that there are good robots and bad robots and how cool they are as they fight each other in SPACE or on EARTH. so you’d see the Dark Avenger and how smart he is as he figures out who the bad guy is and then also feel weirdly sad for the bad guy but end up putting him in jail. and then you’d be cool because of the batmobile and the great music.
you’d just have to be the kind of person into superheroes or supervillains, probably. and be interested by the noir elements. or maybe you saw the batman movies and were like “this is cool” and then you got to have a steady stream of merchandisable batman.
but mostly what i meant about the cartoon being better than the comics is that comics!Batman in the 90s was just. such an asshole. like you know how BBC Sherlock is – he was worse. he did much more manipulative shady shit, and literally everyone was at his beck and call. he was the Maryest of Mary Sue male power fantasies and i’m…not sure how much that’s changed but, like, at least they include other people in those power fantasies now. (for how long?? who KNOWS. god. i cry. comics are a disaster. comics were a mistake.)
but where comics tend to be up and down in quality, btas was a steady stream of reliable good content. the animated verse, anyways. (talk to me about the comics no don’t don’t talk to me i can’t. i cannot.)
(okay on a level i love how absolutely absurd comics are but that’s also. so frustrating.)
Imp
Personally I preferred Batman Beyond, but I’m a cyberpunk geek.
Spencer
Oh yeah, Beyond is fantastic, but it also has a lot of weak episodes and suffers greatly from the not entirely interesting Rogues Gallery, the way that B:TAS was defined by its fantastic, memorable cast of villains who carried the show more than Batman himself.
I think my favourite episode was the one where all the kids of Gotham get sent to a reform school that basically abuses them into compliance, and I think the show would have been stronger had it ran with more of those.
For basically being Spider-Bat Akira, Terry ended up being so goddamned fantastic that he eclipses a lot of DC’s output since. Not bad for a character born from an executive mandated “Batman in High School” show.
showler
Batman:TAS was so good it redefined a lot of characters for the comics. It made Clock King into a good villain.
figureaddict
Batman TAS premiered my freshman year of college, most of the guys in my wing of the dorm would gather in the residence hall meeting room to watch it on the big tv before we headed to the cafeteria for supper.
Greatest thing ever when it was new!
All this talk of B:TAS and nobody recognizes the greatness that was DCAU Superman.
IT WAS BETTER THAN BATMAN, DANGIT. THIS IS A HILL I WILL DIE ON.
David M Willis
I might also agree with you. Like, Superman was, at least, pretty consistent. At its worst it was boring. But, like, BTAS had some reeeeally stinker episodes. And sometimes its quality was all over the place. You never know if the next episode is going to be amazing or, y’know, The Cape And Cowl Conspiracy.
It just depends on if one is personally more enamored with having singularly great episodes like Heart of Ice, despite the terrible valleys of I Am The Night, or if instead they’d rather have something that’s more regular and more polished.
Spencer
Oh yeah, when B:TAS had its highlights, “Almost Got ‘Im”, “Heart of Ice”, “Perchance to Dream”, “Joker’s Favor”, “The Man Who Killed Batman”, some of this is in the All Time Greats for western animation. Also then you get the mutated farm animals episode or where Catwoman gets turned into a furry.
I tend to prefer arc based shows, so Superman spending the entire series building up to the Fourth World, with Michael Ironside as DARKSEID, while also having long arcs devoted to Lex Luthor and Brainiac in their most perfect incarnations across any medium, on top of having a lot of really good standalones, like the Mr. Mxyzptlk episodes and the Late Mr. Kent where Superman has to solve his own murder, dang it was just great. It had the unfortunate fate of being sandwiched between B:TAS and Justice League, the two peaks of the DCAU, but more people need to give S:TAS a shot.
‘Cause any show that can turn Toyman into a horrifying badass deserves some cred.
DarkVeghetta
S:TAS was right up there with B:TAS for me, though I saw it much later, as I’m pretty sure it was produced quite a few years after B:TAS.
As for ‘better’… well, as you both pointed out, it had more focus on arcs and it was more consistent, yet on the other hand B:TAS had some gems one can never forget. Thankfully we don’t have to choose and can actually watch BOTH during one lifetime, as they both rank high on the must-see western animation list.
Boojum
B:TAS started the climb to quality, Superman took it and flew with it.
JL/JLU damn near perfected it.
Ultra Car was just a cheap knock-off of Go-Bots, which was itself an even cheaper knock-off of Transformers, which was a cheesy ripoff of the greatest show ever: ULTRAMAN!
If it is Western influenced, you can follow it to Ouranos and Gaea eventually. If it’s Eastern, you’ll eventually find bits of Journey to the West.
So it is written.
Anothis
And in every story, looking hard enough, you’ll find the Epic of Gilgamesh as well.
Cholma
“Gilgamesh and Enkidu… at Uruk.”
“Picard and Dathon… at El-Adrel.”
“Carla and Walky… at Reed Hall.”
Epic battles, all.
DarkVeghetta
Ah, divine satyromania – the origin of everything entertaining ever.
DinaWho
Technically those references don’t go together, though. Picard and Dathon were fighting alongside each other (as probably were Gilgamesh and Enkidu unless that was their first meeting – been a while since I read any EoG), whereas Carla and Walky are on opposite sides.
(Technically you could argue that they’re both fighting ‘with’ each other in some creative wordplay à la the Hamilton opening number, but I feel like that conflicts with how the reference-as-communication was handled in Darmok…)
644 thoughts on “Shits”
Ana Chronistic
Has Ultra Car been snatched up by Netflix yet? I gotta see it now! =[
ULTRA CAR SPEAKS TO ME
Kris
Ultra Car was okay, but it’s no Batman TAS.
Skizz
Yep, Ultracar is Beware the Batman. Called it yesterday 🙂
magicallady
no, ultracar is zeta project
Reltzik
Of course not! Batman TAS was an unoriginal adaptation of a franchise that was old BEFORE ITS TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC’S PARENTS WERE BORN. You can’t be visionary when you’re hobbled to the pa-
*this user has been banned by the site admin*
Skizz
People said that? Like not sarcasticly?
Rutee
Batman TAS is one of the sacred cows of nerd dom, but there might have been an iconoclast.
I wonder how it /does/ rate at originality. I don’t really know enough about batman, nor remember the series, well enough to say.
Orion Fury
Gave us Harley Quinn, a not one-dimensional Mr Freeze, and probably a bunch of other touches.
Joe
It gave us Harley Quinn, who gave us the immortal line “Doncha wanna ride your Harley?”, which is the greatest thing to ever somehow make it past network censors.
EvilMidnightLurker
“Ride” was the one that didn’t make it. “Rev up” was what they substituted. 😀
Roborat
Did she then look at the camera and say: “Goodnight everybody.”?
Michael
No, sorry, the greatest thing to ever somehow make it past network censors was Animaniac’s “finger Prince” joke.
Kamino Neko
Renee Montoya was also created for TAS, though the comics writers liked her so much they added her in an issue which came out before her first appearance in the show.
AndroidDreams
*pssst* hey, if you’re looking for an original batman series to wrap your head around, try this *opens coat* “The Batman” cartoon network series in the early 2000s. It kept characters relevant while evolving plotline with introductions to beloved villains. The only series for the discerning masked vigilante
.
Rutee
I’m really not. Batman is usually horrible, regardless of the quality of the entertainment he’s in. Quite possibly one of my least favorite fictional entities. But the thought did occur to me that it’s possible that one of nerd-dom’s sacred cows might not actually be /good/. That certainly does happen.
Kris
Batman horrible?!…….I’d say that’s mostly up to whoever writes him. Although he has had some pretty ass backwards interpretations.
Sunny
For what it’s worth, I recently rewatched the entire series, and it did hold up. I didn’t have a single moment of “I liked THIS as a child? What the hell drugs was I on?”. Some episodes were better, some were a bit worse, the afterschool special episode stuck out like a sore thumb, but none of them were plain bad.
Every character is given some depth, though being a cartoon there’s no genuinely cartoonish villain I can recall, even the Joker and Croc have their moments of humanity.
Not every episode is a masterpiece, and I’m sure there are things to be found that can be criticised, but overall, Batman TAS is good.
trlkly
Seems to me that calling a character others like “horrible” would be the type of thing Dorothy would warn against. But I guess we have a pretty good comments section that didn’t blow that out of proportion.
Like all nerd fights, it takes two.
Rutee
Uh, okay. Meanwhile I’m going to sit here, an American terrified of vigilante justice because people see Batman and Rorschach and think COOL!, and one of those is actually a thing the narrative is usually saying.
I really couldn’t care less what Dorothy would have to say (not the least of which because she is enamored with a vigilante right now). And I REALLY don’t care about what you have to say because nerd fights are the worst thing ever. The automatic assumption that nerds should like batman irritates me, because it is almost always uncritical.
DarkVeghetta
And here ^ is where the reason why you hate it becomes clear: it’s not the execution, nor the depth, nor anything to do with the series as a experience – your problem with it stems from a apparent loathing of the concept of vigilante justice. Fair enough, though I would be remiss to not point out that Batman:TAS was nothing if not accepting of other’s differences and was quite adamant in preaching understanding of even your perceived foes. I also think it’s the first cartoon I remember that had bisexual characters. I (am pretty sure I) understand your concern, but it is misplaced.
Rutee
Yes. I said as much. I indicated *BATMAN* is horrible, “Regardless of the quality of his entertainment”. I take no position on whether a given Batman thing I don’t remember is GOOD. *Batman*, the idea, and what he consistently stands for, is horrible.
I have no opinion on Batman:TAS. I don’t dislike it, and I don’t like it. I academically asked whether it was actually TEH SUPAR ORIGINAL (which it clearly wasn’t; that’s fine and all, but my point was less ‘it’s bad for this’ and more ‘and that’s fine, because originality isn’t important’), and whether it might be good. I offer no values on that goodness, because I don’t know. But whether or not Batman:TAS is good, Batman is basically horrible. It’s nigh-on unicorn rare for Batman to be presented as a broken individual who is causing harm. Because he’s the hero of the franchise.
And whether Batman:TAS ‘accepts other people’s differences’, has nothing to do with the simple core of “Broken man afflicting his brokenness on everything around him”. Batman is the person with the least excuse to become the superhero he did – his origin story is “Something traumatic happened to me, so I will ultimately inflict similar trauma on other children elsewhere in order to prevent the exact same trauma from happening again.”
He could have entered politics and done more good than his standard street sweeping, until we get to “Gotham is sick and broken because of an ancient magic curse”, which postdates TAS by at least 15 years or more. His ARCHVILLAIN is someone who, in TAS, is someone who would have done FAR less harm if Bats had never gotten involved. The Joker was just a smart crook until batman knocked him into an acid vat (But technically didn’t kill him!) Now he’s The God Damned Joker, who I’m pretty sure isn’t quite an omnicidal maniac in TAS, but is still fucking evil in ways well beyond “I kill money and kill when it’s more convenient to do so”. And The Joker is not the only Rogue he made worse than has to be, assuming the Standard Mr. Freeze Origin Plot.
But yeah no, tell yourself that Batman is Fine and I, Rutee, Should Be Okay With Him because you called him Politically Correct. My problem with Batman is that he’s a vigilante who primarily concerns himself with, on a time-basis, low-level villains. I have the same problem with Spiderman. They’re doing the least useful plausible vigilante thing, that they don’t even have an excuse to invest heavily in, and in Batman’s case, Batman has the power to do far more good within the law.
You don’t understand my concern. And don’t you dare try to claim Harley (and maybe Ivy?) being bi as the show being fine in every respect. Given that it took them 20 fucking years to actually say that was canon (Which, whether I like it or not, is EXTREMELY important to not getting harrassed by nerds), they score no fucking points for it. Especially not when I’m reasonably confident it wasn’t intended – this isn’t relevant to its value to gay or bi people, but it’s DAMNED sure relevant to whether we give people kudos for it.
Michael
I’m not going to say you should be okay with him. However, I am one person who loved Batman TAS while strongly disliking most other Batman media because 1. other media doesn’t usually hammer home that Bruce has a problem and being Batman is not healthy, and 2. TAS’s batman is not this forever gritty grimdark douchebag punching all the criminals, he also funds rehabilitation programs (as Bruce) and actively tries to help criminals getting back onto the right path if they want to.
This Tumblr post better describes why I love TAS while not caring much for the Bat’s other interpretations: http://kryallaorchid.tumblr.com/post/85762466740/fabula-unica-underwater-carpentry
DarkVeghetta
Such anger. Suppose I’ll leave it at that since you’re clearly upset and there’s no point in escalating this by further debate. Good day.
Sunny
At a glance, you kinda contradict yourself. At first you say that Batman is the hero and as such cannot be shown to be a broken individual who inflicts harm by his actions. A few paragraphs later you go out and and say that Batman makes some situations worse and causes some of the villains to do more harm than if he hadn’t intervened.
And yeah, you may well be right about the joker in B:TAS (though not about Mr. Freeze, and I’m not sure B:TAS follows the “acid vat” origin story, the Joker has had so many backstories that it’s essentially impossible to say which is the true canonical one, but I digress…), but the series doesn’t gloss over it imo, and in one episode even makes it a major plot point that ultimately remains unanswered, leaving it up to the viewer to make up their own mind. Yes, Batman is the protagonist, and usually ends up being a net benefit if you consider harm done versus harm prevented, but he has his critics even among the good guys. Bullock is the main one there, and while it’s tempting to dismiss him as a fat, cliched, donut-devouring sourpuss, he’s also shown to be courageous, unbribeable, and a very efficient investigator.
When you say that Batman’s motivation amounts to “Something traumatic happened to me, so I will ultimately inflict similar trauma on other children elsewhere in order to prevent the exact same trauma from happening again” you’re just being silly. I don’t recall Batman killing anyone’s parents in front of them, so… yeah. You’re exaggerating there to the point where you make no sense any more. Dial back a bit and maybe we can have a fruitful discussion about that.
As for the lesbian relationship between Harly and Ivy not havin been intended… My pet theory is that it was pushed past the execs and regulatory bodies by making it so overt and ham-fisted that it went right through people’s legs (as opposed to over their heads). It may not have been a planned effort by the studio or DC Comics, but someone on the creative team definitely wanted to put it out there.
Touchfuzzy
The appeal of vigilante superhero comics is that a desire for things to be that simple. At least in my opinion. I’m not fond of Batman (mostly because the whole, better than everyone at everything thing is just tiresome), but Spider-Man for instance is a character I really do enjoy.
Life isn’t that simple, but it would be nice if it was.
And what do you think about the X-Men. A team that is hated and hunted for what they are, who do practice vigilante justice, but specifically because the government is unable or unwilling to deal with the problems surrounding a minority.
Yes, in reality, that would be somewhat horrifying. But in fiction. It’s a nice bit of power fantasy. It’s a complex problem simplified into a bit of wish fulfilment.
(Also, technically, the 60s TV show Batman was not a vigilante at all, he worked with the police and government, so maybe all incarnations don’t fit under your original hatred (this is meant mostly as a joke))
Touchfuzzy
Basically, sometimes I wish we could just punch evil in the face.
Rutee
Whether someone is ‘a’ hero and ‘the’ hero narratively are totally dissimilar things, so no, I didn’t contradict myself. He is generally a bastard. The narrative generally treats what he does as right. These are two things that don’t have to relate to each other, but in his case, generally do. Batman can, and does, suggest morally reprehensible bullshit and the universe will say “yeah that’s about right, good call Bats.”
If TAS is an exception, great. It might hold up for /me/ if I rewatched it (which I’m not going to. I spend most of my free time playing video games, not watching TV. Nothing agin’ it, it’s just not what I do.) But Batman, as a whole, generally has this as an enormous problem.
And no, Batman doesn’t kill people’s kids in front of them. That’s why I said he avoids doing the EXACT SAME THING. What he does, is he throws them off in prison, for what is by the numbers, more likely a crime of necessity than anything else. He’s denying kids their parents – he’s just not doing it by murder. Hence, ‘similar’. What happened to him is worse, sure. I don’t see why that justifies his bullshit street sweeping, especially given that he seems to know it doesn’t do anything in most iterations (hence the damn speeches on how the city is dying etc etc). I’m not ‘exaggerating’. I’m just uncomfortably aware of what it is prison actually IS in the USA, and where crime generally comes from. Arkham Asylum actually doesn’t stand in much better, given that it seems to be where Joker’s gangmates come from, even if prior to going crazy trying to understand the joker, Harley was genuinely trying to help people.
As far as the X-Men, they’re more interesting for how they play into respectability politics than they are for using their superpowers. Given that the ones who seem to get slots on the team are usually capable of rather absurd bullshit, them fighting back against civilians strikes me as the definition of excessive force, but I’m pretty sure Sentinels are actually a thing that cartoon didn’t make up, so there’s at least that. As far as I’m aware, the X-Men usually just fight supervillains, which when they’re not The Black Panthers but Mutant-flavored, is fine. Batman and Spider Man don’t have problems where they’re fighting supervillains either, /by and large/ (The Acid-vat story, regardless of it’s SUPER TRUE CANONICITy, bc I give a fuck about canon, and Mr. Freeze, are the exceptions here). Supervillains represent a threat you actually need something superhuman /for/. It’s what makes them /super/villains (and yeah this probably makes some bat rogues questionable, since I don’t remember all their schticks. I guess Nigma might have stolen the crown jewels or something important in an episode at least?) There’s nothing disproportionate about that, and since supervillain motivations are often not remotely grounded in anything realistic (Chairface Chippendale wanted to get his name on the moon!), there’s little else to be said. Where they start to mirror real world groups, you can have problems (Everything I’ve seen of the X-Men indicates a very tumultuous relationship with groups like the Black Panthers, sometimes recognizing that respectability politics is bullshit, sometimes buying into establishment groups), but even where supervillains /have/ human motives, they’re still generally doing something wrong that ‘has’ to be solved with violence.
So, bringing /that/ back to Batman, in theory, if he spent his time politicking and basically didn’t bother with small thugs (Whom fall under the province of the police, and which he’s not really doing much about with crime fighting measures anyway), I’d actually be fine with him. Then he dons the suit because let’s say, Ivy’s robbing the zoo. And that can /work/ as a cartoon.
Batman is a superhero I’m pretty against, but Batman in a Giant Robot (Roger Smith, of Big O) works fine, because he’s not, you know, broken and inflicting his broken on Paradigm. Heck, while his giant robot often punches out other giant robots, a lot of the problem solving is ultimately about other matters entirely, and the only person who ends up in prison is the well-to-do thief with a giant robot who’s doing it just because he can. And while itd oesn’t have to work out THAT nicely for the non-super villains, it… definitely ought to be closer than the whole ‘grab them all, throw them in prison, THAT will prevent a child from going through the trauma I did (while neatly ignoring the similar trauma I’m causing because I didn’t kill anyone to do it)’
fwtrump
Actually, with the more well written Batman stories, he isn’t dealing with the petty theft people and the joe shmoe criminals. On more than one occasion he tries to give people a second chance, sometimes as Batman and sometimes as Bruce Wayne. The “normal” people Batman targets are usually Mafia types, only going for the lesser dregs of the group usually to get intel on what is going on.
He doesn’t deal with crime of necessity types unless their necessity is something a bit more dangerous or again mob related. The best written Batman iterations are not the vigilante thug Batman, but the one who listens and tries to help as both identities.
I will admit there are often depictions of Batman in terms of only his more action oriented BASH ALL CRIMINALS EFFORTLESSLY BRAA… Usually the movies and videogames… and part of the 90’s dark and gritty stages… But the Batman I know (and I do not claim to be the outright expert so I know things will be picked apart) knows when to try to talk as well as when to kick butt. He knows the system is broken and corrupt, but he is trying to fix it as best as he can while keeping the broken parts form getting more and more out of control. It ends up being cylindrical (with both the prisons and Arkham creating and bolstering the ranks of the villains), but he does try to fix those issues on the outside (Bruce Wayne) and the inside (Batman).
Kamino Neko
… Someone not claiming The Batman is an affront to all things Batty? Wow.
Anothis
“The Batman” was pretty good. It kinda turned into “The Justice League” in the final season but that’s usually how Batman do anyway.
Kamino Neko
I liked The Batman a lot…but I tend to keep that quiet, because this was Not A Popular Opinion back when the show was on the air, and thus people were discussing it more than occasionally.
Daibhid C
I liked The Batman, once I accepted it wasn’t “More B:TAS but we’re calling it something else now”. I got the impression a lot of people never did.
I also liked B:TBATB. Still on the fence about Beware the Batman, though.
ganymedeanoutlaw
I’m surprised that somebody’s acknowledging it at all. It’s the only Batman cartoon I ever saw, and I don’t really see people talking about it.
Jacques Cornelius Parrot III
Seriously though, The Batman was actually way better than I thought it would be when I first saw commercials. The Clayface origin/evolution was actually really emotionally impactful.
Maxy
I watched a few episodes of ‘The Batman’. The first three, to be precise. I’m fine with changing the characters, but those three were just so… Predictable. Also, it felt kinda dumb to have The Penguin acting as an intimidating physical opponent to friggin’ Batman. (The Joker was a little iffy, but at least it kinda-sorta fit.)
Historyman68
I got into The Batman a few years ago. One thing I really liked is how they had Batgirl start as the sidekick BEFORE Robin. She was an excellent character, put to very good use on the Maxie Zeus episode.
Yeah, the series didn’t have the psychological depth of B:TAS, but it was pretty fun at times.
Yatsude Hatte
I also would point out the cool tie of Poison Ivy to Batgirl to give her a better personal nemesis than Kiler Moth.
Historyman68
Agreed, though I’m sad they didn’t do quite as much with that connection as B:TAS did with Bruce/Harvey.
NaYa
Should I be concerned that you’re carrying those around under your coat…?
Kris
It’s partly (some would say solely) responsible for how we see the character Batman portrayed today. It was dark Batman in a time where the most recognizable version of him was the Adam West tv show and Superfriends.
Rutee
…does it not postdate The Dark Knight Returns?
*Checks*
It does. So no, this isn’t really an indicator towards ‘originality’ (I should clarify, ‘originality’ is kind of pointless and not actually a concern of mine, but I did wonder if it was true.
Ah, and yes, it probably is partially responsible for Dark Batman in public perception, in that it helped keep it alive in the public in the middle of… very silly Batman movies (I’m pretty sure he was better remembered for… wozzit, Batman and Robin? Where Ivy kills people by making out with them? Either way, recent movies, not Adam West), so they were less shocked with the Nolan movies. Definitely not solely, but almost definitely partially.
StClair
the first Keaton Batman movie was an earnest attempt to make Batman serious, following the trend in the comics at the time (just as 60s Batman, for all that we mock it now, was a mirror of the comics of ITS time, and for that we can pretty much thank Wertham and the Comics Code for forbidding anything more serious *spit*). It’s a bit silly in spots nevertheless, but unintentionally so. The really silly stuff didn’t start to creep in until, oh, the third movie.
Really, the 1989 Batman influences are pretty clear, including the reuse of Danny Elfman’s fantastic new theme for the character, the design of the Batmobile, etc etc.
Rutee
Yeah, I was pretty sure we were in full on SERIOUS GRIM Batman mode at this point, comic-wise. And yeah, even as a kid I could tell it wasn’t supposed to be silly it just… was. Well, BnR, anyway, I don’t really remember anything about the others, though I’d be impressed if the Riddler one was serious, which you seem to be indicating it wasn’t, and the Penguin one was not something I was allowed to see, but looked serious.
StClair
Batman (1989): Michael Keaton and Joker (Jack Nicholson).
Batman Returns (1992): Keaton, Penguin (Danny DeVito) and Catwoman (Michelle Pfieffer).
Batman Forever (1995): Val Kilmer, Riddler (Jim Carrey) and Two-Face (Tommy Lee Jones).
Batman and Robin (1997): George Clooney, Mr. Freeze (Arnold Schwarzenegger) and Poison Ivy (Uma Thurman).
that last one killed the franchise until Nolan revived it in 2005, 8 years later.
SgtWadeyWilson
@StClair actually, if I remember correctly, the original plan for the 60’s Batman was a serious take with the actor from the then recent Tarzan as Bats, but then Hugh Hefner(I may have misspelled his name, but I don’t care enough to look it up) showed the really old campy Batman movie at a party. This caused a bunch of people to set up showings at colleges and stuff (like some sort of proto-hipsters). Seeing the popularity of this campy Batman, the series was retooled before the Tarzan actor even had two pictures taken in the Batsuit. So actually, despite Adam West’s Batman bringing the character and comics more attention, the comics regressed back out of a newly refound seriousness to mirror the show.
I learned that ‘fun’ fact from a comics history class, so I figured I’d share.
DSL
I wonder how the rest of the world is doing?
Abel Undercity
(Golf clap)
zoelogical
i think the thing i liked about it is that it really…played with the short story format in interesting ways? like i guess what i’m comparing it to internally is Twilight Zone, although TZ was probably much better. but it ended up doing a lot of character studies that were just. really good for cartoons, i think. there are a lot of people who end up liking the villains much better than batman because they were allowed to…screw up, essentially. and there’s something very cathartic about that. i feel like it really codified Batman as He Should Be – ethical traumatized isolated dude with too much money, hahaha.
but, yeah, a lot of the love probably holds to nostalgia. which, i don’t think is necessarily a bad reason to love something, but you gotta know what you’re doing, as with most things. sometimes you love something for how terrible it is.
and then sometimes you love something because, screw the system, nobody can stop you. exhibit a: my stephanie brown avatar
…honestly i would Not Be Surprised if a lot of the love for batman tas comes from how terrible most comic books are
Sanchez
The best thing about Batman:The Animated Series (at least in my opinion) is the art direction and story telling. It was much more dark than many animated shows of its time, even up until now, and was very “film noir” in its direction. I am a fan of Batman, but it was the animated series that made me curious. Of course if you don’t care for Bruce Wayne period you’re SOL haha. It’s worth it for the art at least.
zoelogical
that scene with Two-Face and the lightning strike sent chills down my spine, hahahaa. and Joker’s Favor is absolutely a classic. also i really love Mask of the Phantasm and can never get over Bruce believing he doesn’t deserve to be happy like NO, DON’T, BRUCE, NO, IT’S OKAY, YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE MISERABLE, GDI GET A THERAPIST. and batman beyond is such a good continuation
there are a lot of things to love about it! the art deco stylization is so distinctive and i’m never going to get over the title sequence in MotP being just the credits sung backwards or like. just the title sequence from btas. that’s such beautiful storytelling, so short and succinct and perfect. but yes
StClair
zoelogical: All of this.
There was a bit in the comic that ran alongside the (animated) Justice League where the Phantom Stranger shows Flash (who got in an argument with Batman earlier) what Bruce’s first Christmas after Crime Alley was like. He opens all his expensive presents from Alfred without enthusiasm, until he gets to the Grey Ghost playset. And for a moment, he’s a little boy again, jumping around the living room with the toy plane…
And then little Bruce catches sight of that big portrait of his parents over the mantel. And says, “I’m sorry.” For forgetting his vow. For being happy. Just for a moment.
He thanks Alfred (not noticing the tear the latter sheds) and asks him to please take care of the presents, while he goes downstairs to train some more. And a much chastened Flash quietly tells the Stranger he’s seen enough.
zoelogical
StClair: :(((((((((((
that’s almost as sad as The Brave and the Bold Bruce origin story
Rutee
Hm, I guess that’s possible, but I would think it’d be a hard thing to notice for a kid (at least, in the same way; like, I think most of my objections wouldn’t occur to a kid, but it still might be deeply unentertaining for them). TAS did air for a long time in syndication, right? Folks coulda easily gone back to it later, if it did, after trying out batman comics.
Definitely possible. I mean, no idea if it’s true, but possible.
zoelogical
i did kind of come to it as a college student, hahaha. i was probably a newborn when BTAS started airing, and I never had cable or Cartoon Network growing up.
i think kids – especially young kids – would probably process it more on an aesthetic level. like a lot of toddlers don’t necessarily understand everything that’s going on in a Disney movie, but they can see the pretty princess and the prince and the villain and understand what’s going on. Or understand that there are good robots and bad robots and how cool they are as they fight each other in SPACE or on EARTH. so you’d see the Dark Avenger and how smart he is as he figures out who the bad guy is and then also feel weirdly sad for the bad guy but end up putting him in jail. and then you’d be cool because of the batmobile and the great music.
you’d just have to be the kind of person into superheroes or supervillains, probably. and be interested by the noir elements. or maybe you saw the batman movies and were like “this is cool” and then you got to have a steady stream of merchandisable batman.
but mostly what i meant about the cartoon being better than the comics is that comics!Batman in the 90s was just. such an asshole. like you know how BBC Sherlock is – he was worse. he did much more manipulative shady shit, and literally everyone was at his beck and call. he was the Maryest of Mary Sue male power fantasies and i’m…not sure how much that’s changed but, like, at least they include other people in those power fantasies now. (for how long?? who KNOWS. god. i cry. comics are a disaster.
comics were a mistake.)but where comics tend to be up and down in quality, btas was a steady stream of reliable good content. the animated verse, anyways. (talk to me about the comics no don’t don’t talk to me i can’t. i cannot.)
(okay on a level i love how absolutely absurd comics are but that’s also. so frustrating.)
Imp
Personally I preferred Batman Beyond, but I’m a cyberpunk geek.
Spencer
Oh yeah, Beyond is fantastic, but it also has a lot of weak episodes and suffers greatly from the not entirely interesting Rogues Gallery, the way that B:TAS was defined by its fantastic, memorable cast of villains who carried the show more than Batman himself.
I think my favourite episode was the one where all the kids of Gotham get sent to a reform school that basically abuses them into compliance, and I think the show would have been stronger had it ran with more of those.
For basically being Spider-Bat Akira, Terry ended up being so goddamned fantastic that he eclipses a lot of DC’s output since. Not bad for a character born from an executive mandated “Batman in High School” show.
showler
Batman:TAS was so good it redefined a lot of characters for the comics. It made Clock King into a good villain.
figureaddict
Batman TAS premiered my freshman year of college, most of the guys in my wing of the dorm would gather in the residence hall meeting room to watch it on the big tv before we headed to the cafeteria for supper.
Greatest thing ever when it was new!
Spencer
All this talk of B:TAS and nobody recognizes the greatness that was DCAU Superman.
IT WAS BETTER THAN BATMAN, DANGIT. THIS IS A HILL I WILL DIE ON.
David M Willis
I might also agree with you. Like, Superman was, at least, pretty consistent. At its worst it was boring. But, like, BTAS had some reeeeally stinker episodes. And sometimes its quality was all over the place. You never know if the next episode is going to be amazing or, y’know, The Cape And Cowl Conspiracy.
It just depends on if one is personally more enamored with having singularly great episodes like Heart of Ice, despite the terrible valleys of I Am The Night, or if instead they’d rather have something that’s more regular and more polished.
Spencer
Oh yeah, when B:TAS had its highlights, “Almost Got ‘Im”, “Heart of Ice”, “Perchance to Dream”, “Joker’s Favor”, “The Man Who Killed Batman”, some of this is in the All Time Greats for western animation. Also then you get the mutated farm animals episode or where Catwoman gets turned into a furry.
I tend to prefer arc based shows, so Superman spending the entire series building up to the Fourth World, with Michael Ironside as DARKSEID, while also having long arcs devoted to Lex Luthor and Brainiac in their most perfect incarnations across any medium, on top of having a lot of really good standalones, like the Mr. Mxyzptlk episodes and the Late Mr. Kent where Superman has to solve his own murder, dang it was just great. It had the unfortunate fate of being sandwiched between B:TAS and Justice League, the two peaks of the DCAU, but more people need to give S:TAS a shot.
‘Cause any show that can turn Toyman into a horrifying badass deserves some cred.
DarkVeghetta
S:TAS was right up there with B:TAS for me, though I saw it much later, as I’m pretty sure it was produced quite a few years after B:TAS.
As for ‘better’… well, as you both pointed out, it had more focus on arcs and it was more consistent, yet on the other hand B:TAS had some gems one can never forget. Thankfully we don’t have to choose and can actually watch BOTH during one lifetime, as they both rank high on the must-see western animation list.
Boojum
B:TAS started the climb to quality, Superman took it and flew with it.
JL/JLU damn near perfected it.
weedleplop
No, Ultra Car was no BTAS. SPIDER-CAR on the other hand…
Cholma
Let me see if I know how this works. *ahem*
Ultra Car was just a cheap knock-off of Go-Bots, which was itself an even cheaper knock-off of Transformers, which was a cheesy ripoff of the greatest show ever: ULTRAMAN!
Orion Fury
But Ultraman was just a ripoff of a Twilight Zone episode.
Slartibeast Button, BIA
Which was based on a far superior Golden Age science fiction pulp magazine story.
Cholma
If you dig deep enough, it all goes back to an ancient Greek Myth! Where do you think “God from the machine” refers to? ROBOT AI!
Slartibeast Button, BIA
So it all goes back to Zeus not keeping it under his tunic?
Opus the Poet
Zack Tilly!!
Kingmonster
Sheesh…it always goes back to Zeus, doesn’t it.
Mr. Bulbmin
If it is Western influenced, you can follow it to Ouranos and Gaea eventually. If it’s Eastern, you’ll eventually find bits of Journey to the West.
So it is written.
Anothis
And in every story, looking hard enough, you’ll find the Epic of Gilgamesh as well.
Cholma
“Gilgamesh and Enkidu… at Uruk.”
“Picard and Dathon… at El-Adrel.”
“Carla and Walky… at Reed Hall.”
Epic battles, all.
DarkVeghetta
Ah, divine satyromania – the origin of everything entertaining ever.
DinaWho
Technically those references don’t go together, though. Picard and Dathon were fighting alongside each other (as probably were Gilgamesh and Enkidu unless that was their first meeting – been a while since I read any EoG), whereas Carla and Walky are on opposite sides.
(Technically you could argue that they’re both fighting ‘with’ each other in some creative wordplay à la the Hamilton opening number, but I feel like that conflicts with how the reference-as-communication was handled in Darmok…)
/pedantry
Cholma
Good observation. I’ll take that hit.
Doctor_Who