174

Smoochy
Posted on October 2, 2018 by David M Willis
The first of September's Patreon bonus strips is up, and y'all voted for Jocelyne!  (it was up a few days ago actually, but this space was busy promoting my CXC2018 table)  Any Patron can go log on to the Dumbing of Age Patreon and go check out her strip.  There's also a cat! also i have a drip now, which is like a patreon but run by kickstarter, and it's still in beta so it's not quite up to patreon functionality at the mo', but if you want a way to support me that isn't patreon now i have one thank you

174 thoughts on “Smoochy”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    who hasn’t wanted an iguana to grant hitherto unknown powers tho

    1. Knuf Wons

      The poor iguana just wants a salad!

    2. Remmington Steele

      Wait until Night. That’s when the Iguana is most powerful.

  2. Doctor_Who

    Turns out Fuckface is actually a Cursed Item that causes delusions in whoever wears him.

    Although about 50% of that is just Joyce.

    1. Knuf Wons

      Half of book 9 will be Fuckface’s salad arc, where he grants mysterious powers to those he deems likely to bring him to the salad he desires.

    2. Cattleprod

      Joyce is actually the cursed item Fuckface is wearing.

  3. AnvilPro

    Fuckface is the true main character of this comic. Everything before he got here was the prologue

    1. King Daniel

      Didn’t Willis swear in the hovertext of one of Fuckface’s early appearances that he’d get him more appearances than Joyce someday? You may be onto something here.

      1. Sporks5000

        he’ll never pull it off so long as he’s on her head.

        1. showler

          camera angle

        2. Sunny

          But if this were all happening without Fuckface on Joyce’s head she would have even more of a lead.

  4. BBCC

    Joyce, stop that!

    And yeah, I’m guessing Dorothy is on the money here. poor Joyce.

    1. Regalli

      Oh yeah. Subtle judgement of the iguana theft AND pointing out Joyce’s sexual hang ups. Dorothy’s on fire here.

      And if I’m recalling right neither Becky nor Dina’s really ready to make a Slipshine together yet anyway. I get the sense it’s something both of them would want to discuss before doing for the first time, given how much they value communication about such things. Which means Joyce’s fears are misplaced anyway. (I’m torn between happy she’s not talking about the cragged shame-pits of the lust wolves again, and really really sad.)

  5. Nono

    Wonder how Joyce.exe would have ran when gay marriage was still illegal.

    1. Yumi

      Based on people I’ve known who reached a level of cool about gay things but not sex-out-of-marriage things before marriage equality, I’d say she’d want them to be married “in the eyes of God” if not legally before hanky-panky. Maybe a ceremony with some vows to get it to “okay” territory.

      1. Regalli

        Civil union in a state that recognizes it, maybe? Commitment ceremony somewhere officiated by a friend dressed as a dinosaur in a fancy hat and bow tie?

        … Fuck, that’s what I want my marriage to look like now, and the legally binding stuff is legal. Does Vegas have dinosaur officiants? Because I feel like if they aren’t, they’re missing out on a market.

        1. sultryglebe

          Those T-Rex costumes are showing up everywhere now.

        2. Regalli

          I actually saw one of them at the big Keep Families Together protest. Also an Elsa. (I think the Elsa was a local, because she had something on her sign indicating this wasn’t the first time she’d done Disney Princess Protest Cosplay. They’re pretty much every night in DC now.)

        3. Fart Captor

          Given how far her stance has come, I’d say Joyce would want full legalization, none of that “civil union” business (though someone might have to explain why the difference matters)

          But I think Yumi is right, with regards to whether hanky panky is allowed, a marriage being recognized by God is more important than it being recognized by the law

        4. thejeff

          I think she would have cared more about a church ceremony than a civil union. Well before same sex marriage was legal nationwide (or even in any states) there were churches that would perform same sex wedding ceremonies, under one name or another.

          She’d probably still be unhappy with just a civil marriage – performed by a JP with no religious aspect.

        5. Sunny

          But what KIND of dinosaur?

      2. not someone else

        Based on hardcore Christians I’ve known at that time who either are gay or were very close to gay people, “the Church has been enforcing blasphemy for centuries” followed by a much quicker cracking of faith is also not out of the question.

    2. Felian

      bigots don’t really care whether it’s legal or not (because they keep their own private view of what’s right and should be legal).
      Now that Joyce is slowly getting out of being too much of a bigot, she might have actually wanted to fight for gay marriage just to keep the premarital hanky-panky at bay…. ^^ weird reasoning but less discriminating on a gender point of view…

    3. Classic Appa

      Well I can’t speak for Joyce’s “sect” or whatever you want to call it, but as a catholic marriage before the state is one thing, and before God is another. My great grandmother couldn’t receive communion for decades because she married a Mormon, and more importantly, didn’t have a catholic service.

      That’s all to say, in many Christians eyes it doesn’t matter if you can be married by a judge, you’re not really married unless your married by a priest, so legalization doesn’t really factor in here. In fact gay couples still can’t get married in the Catholic Church. My priest has been blessing gay couples love in a ceremony for over a decade, and he has been reprimanded several times even for that.

      TLDR: The legal status of a marriage doesn’t really factor in on many peoples attitude about the sacrament of marriage. What matters is that the couple has pledged themselves to each other and feel as though their union has been bound by God.

  6. Passchendaele

    joyce, magical head iguana isn’t going to work if he doesn’t want to, and he’s looking a tad grumpy in that last panel

    1. Kris

      Fuckface always looks grumpy. Because he is! Too many humans invading his comic and pretending to be important.

    2. tim gueguen

      “No, Joyce Brown. I shall not use my mystical powers to grant such a request.”

      1. Dean

        Fuckface 100% agrees with Dorothy in that last panel.

    3. Deanatay

      Panel 5 Fuckface: SILENCE, jabbering smoothskin! Do not presume to command your scaly superior!

      Now, increase your scalp temperature by 5 degrees! My butt requires warmth.

  7. shadowcell

    Dumbing of Age Book 9: Fuckface Racks Up the Paneltime

    1. shadowcell

      Book 10: Fuckface Begins
      Book 11: Fuckface and the Tome of the Ages
      Book 12: Fuckface is Totally Gay
      Book 13: Fuckface Brings Back the 80s

      1. shadowcell

        classic titles include:
        Fuckface Meets His Match
        Fuckface Has a Chat With a Mormon Child
        Fuckface Visits Satan
        Fuckface Doles Out the Harshness
        “Q” is for Fuckface
        and Fuckface 3-D

        1. Keulen

          Fuckface 2: Fuckface Harder
          Fuckface 3: Fuckface With a Vengeance
          Fuckface #whatever: Electric Boogaloo

        2. Roborat

          Fuckface 32, Fuckface the iguana goes quantity surveying.

        3. Khyrin

          Now you’re just listing Tugger Nuts titles…

  8. Kernanator

    The power of Fudgeface compels you.

  9. Durandal_1707

    As someone who’s been on the receiving end of a lot of this kind of stuff in real life, I wish the rest of the characters would stop giving Joyce a hard time about this. I realize they mean well, but really, Joyce’s sexual inclinations are really none of their business.

    1. Regalli

      I think it’s a bit different here when she’s projecting it onto her best friend (who has previously established she also has some ‘yeah I want to wait for sex’ stuff and is with someone who’s likewise going to take some time before sex,)* since Joyce’s hangups are Joyce but her not wanting friends to do it is not under her control and in fact, Not Okay.

      * And like. Joyce knows Becky is still religious and was raised with similar views of premarital hanky lanky. Pretty sure the ‘Becky wants to wait for the right person too’ stuff was in Joyce’s presence. Gotta ask, Joyce is supportive here but would she still assume a straight childhood friend with that background and a relatively new SO might be having sex? Internalized shit is hard to shake. I don’t think it’s a major factor, but Becky hearing that might not go over well.

      1. begbert2

        Joyce knows Becky – but then again the Becky she ‘knows’ wasn’t breaking their sect’s rules against homosexuality, so who can be sure whether she’s breaking their rules about chastity too?

        1. Regalli

          It’s the ‘still religious, and more comfortable in her faith than Joyce herself right now’ and ‘Becky literally had hangups about staying in Dina’s room a night or two and said she guesses Jesus wouldn’t mind so long as nothing happened while Joyce was present’ that give me some side-eye about Joyce doubting her.

        2. Alanari

          She got caught making out with her previous roommate at the first school. That’s how all this started. So I’m pretty sure the chastity thing stopped being a thing for becky a few weeks ago.

        3. Regalli

          There’s a difference between smooching (which appears to be okay with Joyce – remember how she interrupted Mary mid-Peter makeout?) and sex.

        4. Rabid Rabbit

          Is Joyce even capable of defining what counts as sex between two people with lady parts?

        5. Alanari

          http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/definitely/

          The glasses are on the bed and they are lying on the bed. Whether they had sex or not is unknown AFAIK, but they probably did more than just kiss a bit. I expect at least some petting.

        6. Bagge

          Di..did they smooch?

          On the mouth?

    2. Alanari

      That goes both ways. She’s trying to change (or “save”) pretty much everyone around her since day one. It only was a question of time until they lost their patience and start to do the same.

    3. the final pam

      Okay but that stops when Joyce starts enforcing her standards on her friends or subtly judges them for their choices. “I don’t want my best friend to have sex until a time I feel is appropriate” is not an opinion you really have a right to have and that’s not a choice you get to make for anyone else. Joyce can feel uncomfortable with it, sure, but explicitly saying, “I don’t want her to be too happy. At least, not yet.” waaaaay oversteps her bounds. If we’re talking about something not being any of their business, what sexual activity Becky gets up to is none of Joyce’s business.

      1. Durandal_1707

        Joyce has an industrial-strength level of brainwashing to work through. It’s literally impossible for her not to feel uncomfortable at the thought of her friend having sex. She’s handling it quite well, though. She’s not bothering Becky, she’s not interrupting or saying judgey things or being a pain in the ass. She’s just going somewhere else and trying not to think about it.

        TBH, I’m pretty sure that at that age and level of indoctrination, there’s no way I would have dealt with that as well as she is doing.

        1. the final pam

          I’m not saying she has to feel comfortable with it, though. Joyce is likely not going to be comfortable with sex for a while, and that’s fine. She’s not even through her first semester at college, she has plenty of time to get through her hangups.

          But you’re talking about Joyce’s beliefs and there’s a difference between “I believe in marriage before sex” and “My friends should be married before having sex” and it’s when it crosses into the latter that it stops just being Joyce’s sexual inclination and starts being a standard she’s enforcing on other people. That’s when it starts being other people’s business.

        2. MatthewTheLucky

          But she’s not enforcing it. That’s wjy she’s here.

        3. Durandal_1707

          Exactly.

    4. Emily

      Repression is not an inclination, it’s the result of exactly the kind of behaviour you’re talking about. Joyce’s natural inclination is very clearly be interested in sex it’s just been crushed under years of indoctrination and trying to help her examine that and maybe actually be comfortable with her sexual identity instead of burying her head in the sand every time the subject comes up is not a bad thing.

  10. DailyBrad

    protip: psychoanalyzing your friends without solicitation is maybe rude as hell.

    that said, Joyce does value Dorothy’s honesty, so, go off, I guess.

    1. CoMa

      Probably depends on the kind of friendship you have and how well you know your friends and their characters. Some comments seem to be more rude when coming from people that aren’t normally saying things like that. In-comic though they just know each other for like…two months? Three? So I pretty much agree with you (though they already analysed each other from day one, so maybe that’s just their operation mode).
      That said, I’ve recently had a friend that sometimes can be pretty blunt (which I like about her) questioned a change in my body appearance right in front of her bf, her sisters and their bfs during a games night (I don’t know the bfs THAT well) – and I was just thinking “WTF gal, mind asking me in a more private setting??” – so even if you’re prepared by general blunt personality – rude can still surprise you.

      1. CoMa

        Okay, this turned out longer than I wanted it to. And NO, definitely need another avatar (even IF I use a British accent)

    2. Tom T.

      Yes, Dorothy’s being unlikably superior and intrusive here. Joyce rightly gets a lot of criticism for breaking boundaries, but that often seems to be a one-way street.

      1. Tom T.

        That may be changing lately, I should say.

      2. Fart Captor

        This MIGHT have been intrusive if Dorothy and Joyce weren’t close friends, and it hadn’t already been well established that Joyce is comfortable discussing these topics with her. Both her religious beliefs and her attitudes towards sex are things they’ve discussed before, and Joyce hasn’t shown any sign that she’s uncomfortable with talking about them here. There is absolutely no boundary being violated here. It’s also not acting “superior”, she’s offering an outside perspective. One which happens to be correct, given Joyce’s response

  11. Kathleen

    What the hell, Dorothy. Why are you speaking like a mean robot?

    1. Inahc

      I’m guessing sleep deprivation.
      still, it is annoying.

      1. Emily

        She’s probably also still annoyed at Joyce and Joyce finding new and exciting ways to be gross isn’t really improving matters.

  12. Cass

    Aww, lookit that expression in the last panel. It might not actually work, but Fuckface is trying his best to be magic for Joyce!

    1. cbwroses

      Yes he is. Good Iguana.

      1. Needfuldoer

        All glory to Hypno-guana.

  13. Inahc

    oh right, that patreon strip. I was wishing I could send it to Captain Awkward, it seemed appropriate.

    also urrrgh viruses suck 😛 my immune system is acting like a car that won’t quite start; it starts with the icky feelings and then they fade away but the war has definitely not been won.

  14. Kris

    Dorothy’s been psychoanalyzing Joyce a lot lately. It’s almost as annoying as Joyce’s disregard for boundaries.

    1. newllend(henryvolt)

      Hey then I guess they compliment each other well.

      1. Kris

        Hah! Truly the best of friends!

    2. Inahc

      this. I like them, but I am not liking all this dumbing they’re going through right now.

      1. Inahc

        aww man, I’m too exhausted to put together a proper joke. it was supposed to be something about dorothy “dumbing it up”…

        1. Deanatay

          ‘sokay, we got it. ‘Dumbing’ is an established verb here, after all.

  15. Wraithy2773

    Oh, ffs…

    Look, I’m usually coming down on the anti-Joyce side of things. I love her as a character, but I want to smack her upside the head (………in a friendly way) now and then too.

    But FFS, Dorothy, get off her ass about this. Gasp, super-devoted-Christian-woman isn’t comfortable with sexytimes involving her best friend. Stop bloody psychoanalyzing her, it’s just going to get her to raise her defenses more instead of helping her calm down and get over it!

    Because that’s what she’s doing! Joyce isn’t barging in there saying “MAKE ROOM FOR JESUS!”, she’s quietly stepping aside and letting them do, you know, whatever. She’s trusting Becky to do what’s right.

    This is a good thing. This is growth. Ease the hell up and let her relax.

    1. not someone else

      At this poin, and given how bluntly she said this, I wonder of the exhaustion isn’t eroding Dorothy’s social skills.

      1. Regalli

        Yeah, all the major social contact she’s seemed to have since the breakup has involved Joyce (and included ‘Joyce really wants to break up Jacob and Raidah, rationalizes it as her being Jacob’s True Love, and then adamantly denies she has any sexual attraction to Jacob or at all,’ which is a worrisome situation) and has been maybe a couple hours total. Before that there was occasional Walky and Sierra worrying about her (and I wonder how much time Sierra’s spending in the dorm while it’s Dorothy’s study cave,) but it’s still very little. She might be maintaining a minimum healthy amount of sleep at night now, but certainly no catching up. And we have no reason to believe she’s exercising, which definitely impacts mood and thinking once you’re in the habit. Her body’s probably not feeling that great even if she is getting the essentials now.

        1. CoMa

          Oh yeah – if she’s been working on her stuff she can definitely be pretty moody if she didn’t get at least a bit of exercise in a couple of days.
          I know I get pretty moody once I have a deadline creeping up or I’m sick as in “too sick to exercise” but “not sick enough to actually lie in bed and just sleep” (like with a slight cold or a hurting throat) and I can’t do any kind of physical activity (so sport) to loosen up sitting in front of my desk for nearly 2 weeks straight. It grinds on your nerves.

          That said, I hope Dorothy realises after Joyce’s semi-outburst that she criticises Joyce in a similar way Walky did right after one class (can’t remember which one but it’s not too long ago) – and there she herself told Walky to back off…

    2. Emily

      If Joyce thought it would actually work and not alienate Becky I’m not really sure she wouldn’t be doing exactly that.

    3. Lauralot

      Agreed. It’s like Dorothy’s directed all her micromanaging efforts at Joyce since the breakup.

  16. Kyrik Michalowski

    Wow Joyce, “I want her to be happy but not too happy”? Even if you are only referring to her not having sex before marriage(which is her choice not yours) that is still rather gross to say about your best friend. I wish you had the self reflection necessary to think about that statement, but I suspect we’ll need several more books before that happens.
    Dorothy has really nailed it I think, though again Dotty you should take some time to help yourself as well. Your grades are not the only thing that matters, other parts of your life are important as well you know.

    Also, inb4 irrational Dorothy hate in the comments again.

    1. Nate

      Hahaha too late there’s already a bunch of ridiculous Dorothy hate above your post. I feel you tho.

  17. Bagge

    Dorothy knows nothing about wanting control but feeling an rising tide of powerlessness, of course.

    1. Dana

      Powerlessness is for people who don’t have enough three ring binders.

      1. Bagge

        …Dorothy has a creeping sense of maybe, just maybe not having enough three ring binders.

  18. Derek

    I can’t agree with the comments saying “Dorothy is robotically psychoanalyzing Joyce here”, I think Dorothy is partly analyzing HERSELF.
    Think: she also has issues of feeling powerless and trying to be in control

    1. Kyrik Michalowski

      Well it is very easy to recognize problems someone else is having if you also have the same issues. So she definitely is pointing out issues that Joyce has but that she also shares with her. So some of the comments are not looking at that, but some people also have been loving to hate Dorothy lately, so today was a good excuse for it.

      1. Kris

        Not trying to jump on a Dorothy hate train, but even if she’s partly coming to some personal realizations through observing Joyce, taken at face value what she said to Joyce is just a bit rude. Very much in the same vein as Ethan suggesting Amber is wants to fuck away her trauma by banging Sal’s genderbent clone.

        1. MatthewTheLucky

          I’d say a bit more so, since this is just supposed to be hanging out, and Joyce didn’t bring it up in a panic.

        2. Diner Kinetic

          I think it’s a combination of factors,really; Dorothy is stressed AF and that seems to be taking a toll on her patience with joyce; between this strip and the last she’s clearly starting to have some agitation regarding Joyce that in some ways is founded, but in others seems to based on something a little more pent-up. And of course Joyve, bless her heart, doesn’t notice

  19. Cholma

    If next year’s Kickstarter does not have an option for “iguana magnet”, I may have to riot and disavow Willis as my Lord & Master.

    1. Dana

      “The Iguana” magnet.

    2. JessWitt

      We definitely need that magnet.

      Head iguana can go on all the heads.

      1. Cholma

        Yes! It needs to be smaller than the other magnets, so we can place it on the heads of the other magnets!

    3. Deanatay

      But, you would be disavowing Willis as your lord and master, and avowing Fuckface as your lord and master, right?

      RIGHT???

  20. tim gueguen

    Given some of Joyce’s oddities it’s surprising she’s managed to have a lizard on her head this long.

  21. GenJen

    Oof Dottie, you’re at an 8.5 right now, gonna need ya to take it down to at least a 6.

  22. cbwroses

    Joyce wanted more Dorothy, she got more Dorothy.
    But if she wanted relaxed-cartoon-watching-Dorothy vs how-can-I-make-you-better-Dorothy, then she should have realized that the one getting Dorothy to relax more as well as the one getting most of the let-me-fix-you stuff was Walky.
    Long story long, be careful what you wish for, Joyce.

    1. JBento

      Monkey paws keep having to put in extra hours.

  23. Tacos

    … Joyce is never gonna call the iguana, Fuckface is she?

    1. Clif

      I assume that was a rhetorical question.

  24. Reltzik

    Joyce, if you have to appeal to an outside, higher power to fight the perception of powerless, then you do in fact powerless.

    1. MatthewTheLucky

      That truth is seriously beyond her right now.

    2. BigDogLittleCat

      On the other hand, I read that as an admission by Joyce that Dorothy is correct. Joyce often responds to revelations about her character with a goofy comment that highlights the issue in question.
      Off the top of my head I can only think of her protesting that she likes donut sprinkles. Except the blue ones- they have to go.

      She knows she’s ridiculous and uses humor to process her own neuroses.

  25. not someone else

    …My subconscious has put together themes in this comic and decided that I now headcanon Joyce as a very un-cognizant trans boy. It… makes sense in my head, but something tells me it really, really wouldn’t outside of it. Still, I hope it’s not too weird.

    As a more lucid take: haha, it looks like Fuckface is thinking “stop yelling at me, warm dirt-colored rock”.

    1. Barium

      Could I ask which themes? I promise to be nice even if I wind up disagreeing.

  26. cbwroses

    So does anyone think Joyce’s smoochy sense was tingling because of the SS Garbage Skowl?
    Or do we think it was Becky and Dina smooching off panel?

    1. newllend(henryvolt)

      Lol

    2. CoMa

      If it detected the Garbage-thing, it should probably go off much more often, with covering such a range

    3. Deanatay

      Her smoochy-sense may be becoming more sensitive because there’s more smooching going on around her. Has anyone checked on the Rachels lately?

  27. Gojira

    My world’s on fire, how about your’s? That’s the way I like it and I never get bored.

  28. Gojira

    Joyce is going to lose her V-card to fuckface, isn’t she.

  29. JessWitt

    We’ve waited this long for Fuckface, let him have all the paneltime he wants.

  30. G127

    Can’t Dorothy lighten up a little? You have a friend that comes over with a iguana on her head and all you want to do is talk about serious stuff…

    Besides: “Joyce, are you still a homophobe”.
    J: no, I’m over that.
    D: so what else can ii say today to make you doubt your own values?

  31. Arianod

    Magical head iguana is starting to judge you, Joyce. And they usually don’t give a fuck.

  32. BarerMender

    I’m kinda with Dorothy, here. Joyce’s need to control people is incredibly arrogant, and probably gets on Dorothy’s last nerve. Maybe Dorothy shouldn’t have spoken, but I would have, and I’d’ve said something a sight stronger, such as, “You don’t get to limit Becky’s happiness, and fuck you for trying.”

    1. G127

      She didn’t try anything: in fact she deliberately stayed away from them to give Becky and gf privacy to smooch in peace.

      1. BarerMender

        She certainly did try, more than once. She named Dina an “evilutionist” to her face and called Becky down for being with a non-Christian. And she’s still explicitly wishing limits on Becky’s happiness.

        1. the final pam

          Yeah, “I don’t want her to be too happy” is kind of a really fucking awful sentiment to want for your supposed best friend. “At least, not yet” until it becomes a time Joyce ordains to be appropriate. Regardless if she’s just referring to sex or Becky’s happiness in general, that’s none of Joyce’s business and she doesn’t have the right to stipulate any limits on Becky.

        2. Fart Captor

          Yes, and?

          Feelings and desires do not have moral value. You can’t just choose NOT feel things. As a result, sometimes people have negative feelings and really shitty desires. It’s fine if you don’t like Joyce / think she’s a bad person for other reasons, but “you’re a bad person simply for wanting a bad thing” is an extremely unhelpful attitude

          The important thing IS in fact how one acts on those things. If you suddenly feel an irrational rage towards someone, there’s nothing wrong with that. What would be doing is lashing at them

          The same applies here. Joyce is uncomfortable with the idea of Becky having premarital sex and wants her to wait for marriage. That is not itself immoral. Right now all she’s doing is discussing that discomfort with Dorothy. She’s not imposing any limits on Becky or even suggesting she has any right to judge or control Becky’s decision

          It’d be good for her in the long run to address that discomfort that makes her wish she could control Becky, but being able to admit what she’s feeling and talk to someone about it is really helpful step towards that

        3. Durandal_1707

          ^ :thumbsup:

        4. the final pam

          Okay

          I literally just said that it’s none of Joyce’s business what Becky does though. I said nothing about morality or immorality. Nothing you’ve said changes anything of what I wrote. In another comment above, I even said that Joyce is free to feel uncomfortable with it.

          But the thing is- phrasing counts. Joyce specifically choosing to phrase it as “I don’t want her to be too happy. At least, not yet.” might just be her way to tiptoe around explicitly talking about sex, but it has a kind of gross connotation to it. If she had been upfront, “I’m uncomfortable about Becky having sex” or “I still want Becky to wait for marriage like me”, it’d be different, but she decided to go for a phrasing that I happen to find gross. And I’m allowed to find it gross and say it’s gross without you talking about an unhelpful attitude. So, sorry for being terse, but go ahead and miss me with that.

        5. Fart Captor

          She’s extremely uncomfortable with sex in general, and has been taught all her life not to even talk about it. She still lacks the tools to talk about it the way you’re describing, even if her discomfort with the subject didn’t make that very difficult

          But yes, her phrasing is gross. I wasn’t denying that. It is in fact why I’m glad she’s talking to Dorothy about it, because her reasons for phrasing it like that are something she needs to unpack and examine

        6. the final pam

          She lacks the tools to say “I think Becky should wait until marriage” even though she’s said the same to Dorothy in the past?

          No, you didn’t deny it, but you also didn’t acknowledge it when you decided to lecture me about the moral value (or lack there of) of feelings. I said nothing about Joyce’s feelings. I said nothing about them being wrong, I said nothing about them being immoral, I said nothing about Joyce being a bad person. All I said was “I don’t want her to be too happy” is a an awful statement to say about your friend. Out of the immediate context where Joyce is talking about sex, it sounds really bad. When it’s outside of the context of the comic, where straight Christian people have shown their tolerance for LGBT people as long as it’s not “too gay” or they’re not explicit in their sexuality? That’s even worse.

          And maybe think about why I, a queer afab nonbinary person, would be made uncomfortable about a straight Christian woman saying of her lesbian friend “I don’t want her to be too happy”.

        7. thejeff

          Lots of things sound really bad outside of context. That’s why taking them out of context is usually a bad idea.

        8. Emily

          It doesn’t sound good in context either though. Like, it’s a pretty shitty thing to say about your friend in the context of her sex life too.

        9. the final pam

          This entire thread was about the context in the comic and guess what, it’s still bad. I only brought up outside context to try to consider the larger picture and make it more understandable why it’s gross phrasing.

          When there is an outer context of Christianity trying to police and control the sexuality of LGBT people, the inner context of a Christian girl explicitly expressing desire to control the sexuality of her lesbian friend doesn’t read sympathetically. Do you understand now?

        10. Fart Captor

          I’m not even convinced Joyce actually would want to control Becky’s decision, so much as she might wish that she could control “what is” in a far more general sense. She doesn’t want to override her friend’s will. She wishes that Becky would choose to wait until marriage, the way she still plans to and always assumed Becky would

          The sense of powerlessness stems specifically from her recognizing that she does not have control over what Becky decides or who she is

        11. Bagge

          “Wanted — my best friend, but not changing so much so quickly” http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/discreet/

        12. Fart Captor

          She grown a lot since calling Dina that. She’s long come to accept that Dina believes different things than she does and it’s fine

          She’s also not referring LITERALLY to happiness. She’s referring to them doing premarital hanky panky.

          She’s gotten over that kind of thing regarding Dorothy and basically anyone else, but with Becky, it would mean she’d be taking another major step away from the set of religious beliefs they once shared. Joyce would be shitty to actually judge Becky for doing that, but it’d be entirely understandable for her to be afraid of losing that connection to her best friend

          The desire to control things like that is not the same thing as thinking she has any right to do so. Dorothy is right to bring it up though, because it’s a lot easier to resist the urge to TRY when you’re consciously aware of it

    2. Kris

      Just wanted to say I think a significant factor people are missing is that Joyce is still a devout Christian. This doesn’t completely invalidate the argument. Joyce is still controlling, but it does add context. This isn’t as simple as Joyce doesn’t agree with Becky’s potential sexual activity and wants to limit her happiness. She is legitimately worried for Becky here. A large aspect of her upbringing has taught her that sex is sacred and meant for marriage. There’s legitimate fear that Becky engaging in premarital sex could warp her mind, especially compounded with Joyce’s extreme sexual baggage. So it’s not entirely selfish. It still is, but it’s also concern so it might be a little unfair to completely villify Joyce for voicing thoughts she’s been actively suppressing despite contradicting her own beliefs, for her friends happiness.

      1. Emily

        Yes, and devout parents who send their queer children off to be tortured at conversion camps are just worried for them too so you can see why I’m just going to completely reject this mindset out of hand. Most of the time people who do/believe shitty stuff have justified it to themselves, I don’t see why I should give this particular justification special consideration.

      2. Knayt

        So she’s connected to a hardline, broadly hostile belief system that’s causing her to alienate people, and the proper course of action is to cut her slack for it? Fuck that. That belief system absolutely should alienate, and the social pressure there can be an incentive to leave.

        1. BarerMender

          Damned well said, Knayt.

      3. BarerMender

        I’m not so sure Joyce is worried about Becky, other than at a surface level. Fundagelicals learn from the cradle to scrabble for power over others so that others have less power over them, and sex is a huge source of power, if you can make the other party feel bad enough about it, which is exactly what Joyce has attempted. “Hanky-panky is for after marriage!” I think Dorothy put her finger on it. Joyce is scared of losing whatever power she had over Becky.

      4. the final pam

        Yeah, as a queer afab person, I’m well aware of how straight Christian people are ‘worried’ about the sexual purity of afab people, especially so if they’re LGBT. It’s still garbage.

  33. Darkoneko

    Dotty really got enough of every one else’s svit

  34. Keulen

    At some point Joyce is gonna have to realize that Fuckface doesn’t have mind-control powers.

    1. Gojira

      All glory to Fuckface.

  35. Pacce

    Be more passive aggressive, Dotty.

  36. kilgaen

    Ah, pot -> kettle. Kettle -> pot.

  37. FacelessDeviant

    “You want to control your friends sexuality. That’s because you feel powerless over your own.”

    The girl who was brought up in a restrictive, fundamentally christian environment and whos initial attempts at liberation was her being roofied and sexually assaulted.

    Dorothy, c’mon :/

    1. Zaxares

      Dorothy could be more understanding, but what she says is true. It’s obvious that Joyce is dealing with some VERY unhealthy issues regarding her own sexuality, and although she has the good sense not to actively badger other people about it, the idea of pre-marital sex by other people still clearly bothers her a lot. It wouldn’t be out of the question for Joyce to feel at least some subconscious envy that other people are openly enjoying what she’s trying to so desperately to suppress.

      1. BarerMender

        She badgers the hell out of people about it. “PRE-MARITAL HANKY-PANKY!!!” “As long is it doesn’t lead to anything but smooching and maybe some side hugs.” “Hanky-panky is for after marriage.” Etc., etc. (Quotes from memory.)

        1. Zaxares

          I do remember that stuff too, but I honestly cannot remember if that was actually from DoA, or from waaaay older IW strips. XD They’re all starting to blur together in my memory.

    2. Fawndolyn

      This is exactly how I feel about that. Dorothy’s being far too clinical with her FRIEND who’s already experienced a traumatic sexual assault on her first time out meeting boys. While Joyce just wants to hang out with her friend, her friend just wants to ‘fix’ Joyce. I’m surprised at this point, she hasn’t already told her to fuck off til she’s on the same psychological level.
      There’s nothing wrong with fucking on the first date, but there’s also nothing wrong with waiting til marriage, or being solidified in a committed relationship, or waiting til you find someone you feel really bonded with who’s not gonna just pump and dump. Because, even if it’s based on religious beliefs, it’s relatively harmless. Joyce’s variety of that belief is, anyway.

      1. Emily

        It’s pretty clearly not harmless in Joyce’s case considering how much grief it’s giving her. There’s an entire scene dedicated to her freaking out in a bathroom stall over her sexuality and how jealous she is of Dorothy for not having the same hangups she has and how guilty she feels for being jealous. Like, Joyce does not have a healthy relationship with her sexuality and people keep trying to pretend this is just how she is and not the result of a lot of repression and trauma and something to be worked on and overcome for the sake of her emotional well being.

    3. Lauralot

      Well said. Dorothy may be trying to help, but she’s not a psychiatrist and clearly has no experience with Joyce’s type of cultish upbringing and doesn’t appear to be taking Joyce’s assault into consideration in her attempts to change her.

  38. The Mary's Advocate

    The patreon panel is such a big mood.

  39. Pl0x

    Want to go hug Jocelyne badly

  40. BenRG

    I don’t know… Is Joyce still uncomfortable about PDHAs (Public Displays of Homosexual Affection) or is she jealous of Dina? One thing I’ve learned of late is one can never hope to guess where Willis is going to take stuff like this!

    1. Emily

      Why not both?

      1. thejeff

        Neither, I think.

        I think she’s honest about being happy for them, but not wanting them to go all the way to sex yet. She likely both didn’t want to interrupt them smooching and didn’t want to know if it was more than that.

  41. Zathras10

    Okay, I’m calling “Magical Head Iguana” as a band name.

  42. karmax

    In the next poll I demand Fudgeface be included on the list of most popular characters. He will has all the votes.

  43. Skeptible

    I thought powerlessness was part of Christian belief. (Aside from those that are okay with supporting a horrible person in exchange for the political power to enforce some of their beliefs on others)

    1. BarerMender

      Powerlessness may be part of Christian belief, but power lust is a huge part of Christian culture.

  44. abysswatcher1993

    Joyce, stop trying to force puritan ideas into your friends! Consent is a thing, and magic isn’t real. Well, magic isn’t real yet, but consent is always important.

    1. 3-I

      B-but she is not. She is here instead of there. She has not said anything about this to Becky.

      Also, of course magic is real. Fuckface is magic.

  45. ShinyNeen

    Some assorted thoughts after reading through today’s comments:

    Dorothy is being a tiny bit more brisk with Joyce. A lot moreso in panel 4, but I think it’s still pretty fair given that Joyce trusts Dorothy a lot and is a lot more willing to take criticism from her than anyone else. Personally, I love it when Dorothy tells Joyce what she’s doing wrong, because Dorothy usually finds an appropriate way to do so. And, given how they left off at the end of last storyline, this interaction is still going way better than I would have expected. Yay friends!

    Joyce is struggling with her own self-repression right now. She wants to see Becky stick to the no-premarital-sex thing because it reinforces her belief that she’s doing the right thing by avoiding the hanky-panky stuff herself. On some level, she might even be jealous that Becky is moving past those same barriers that she is stuck at. It’s bad that she wants to reinforce her values by pressuring Becky away from premarital sex but, since she’s venting to Dorothy instead of actually trying to interfere with Becky’s choices, I want to believe that she has at least an inkling that she should just let Becky do her own thing.

    And it’s understandable why she feels and acts the way she does in this and other situations, especially given that a lot of the blame lies on her upbringing (thanks, Carol), but none of that gives her a right to be a jerk and actually push her values on others. Or take someone’s secret iguana out of their room w/o permission.

    Basically I think Joyce is in this awkward middle stage where she’s learned a lot and made some important breakthroughs, but she still has a long ways to go and that can be frustrating. But man, the payoff(s) will be good when we get there.

    1. BBCC

      Basically this.

    2. Regalli

      Yep, everything here. Dorothy’s maybe a touch harsher than need be, but then Joyce stole someone’s iguana and is clearly still having the serious sexual hangup thing and applying it to other people regardless of their thoughts on the matter.

      Joyce clearly needs some serious unpacking of how her upbringing messed her up regarding sex, especially since the way she’s blocked out everything probably hasn’t helped her process the PTSD lurking with it. But she doesn’t want to go to therapy, so until she does these frank discussions with Dorothy are the only thing that’ll accomplish anything there.

  46. jmsr7

    Dorothy said “Another thing you want to feel control over, but you feel a rising tide of powerlessness against.”

    This perfectly illustrates the view of the religious right and why they started to pursue political power and have been trying to regulate citizens’ lives with governmental regulation.

    Willis has said that Joyce is a proxy for him and his upbringing and he has been using it to show what life was like when he was changing his mind about being a fundamentalist evangelical conservative christian. I believe this little arc is showing another of those steps. Specifically that instead of trying to change people’s minds they’ve gone the route of forcing compliance.

    As an aside, i think that the character of Dorothy is less of a person and more of “a representation of the people in Willis’ life who asked him these tough questions that made him think” which is why she’s a bit TOO perfect to be realistic, IMHO.

    jmsr

    1. Emily

      Dorothy is super clearly not perfect in a number of ways.

    2. Sam

      Dorothy is not perfect and as someone who can relate to some of Dorothy’s mindsets, it bothers me that you would say she isn’t ‘realistic’ because I can relate to Dorothy. Just because she is often logical/a voice of reason doesn’t mean that she is flawless, perfect, or less than human.

      Not everyone has screeds of baggage and flaws that are so deep you could drown in them. Sometimes like Dorothy, it’s more that your flaws come rooted in your virtues and that can blur the lines between being a good friend and overstepping; between trying not to hurt someone and messing them around; between doing what helps you keep on top of problems and only seeing people as checkboxes.

      The person who comes closest to perfection right now honestly though is Jacob because people tend to do bad things *around* him, while he is just being a down-to-earth sweet guy, with maybe slight insecurities about his brother and his biggest flaw is really that he can be oblivious to what people are doing right in front of him i.e. Raidah and Joyce’s competing for him flew under his radar entirely. But no one is going around calling him unrealistic because again, not everyone has to have major deep seated flaws that hurt everyone around them all the time, sometimes they have smaller ones that are just natural. Some people… are just really good at peopling.

  47. Batman

    It’s all fun and games til it shits down her neck

    1. Roborat

      Then it’s hilarious?

  48. ValdVin

    Just wondering if webcomic time will see Dorothy get a haircut. I like her this way–it’s becoming.

  49. stoodmuffin

    It’d be super awkward that Joyce felt nothing for Becky got weird feelings about Becky only AFTER something happened.

    Just, I’m realizing the hard time I’ve had a hard time understanding if I’m Pan or Demi comes with a lot of shit that I’ve repressed? Like, I thought I wasn’t but was FAIRLY repressed in terms of queer stuff when I was her age. Joyce is an ONION of repression. I just wonder if Becky and Dina DID something, if Joyce would be uncomfortable on MULTIPLE levels. Like, sometimes seeing friends in a new light had HUGE implications on what I felt for them.

    Like, either way it’s not going to be easy for Joyce to process. I just wonder HOW much.

  50. tirachokko

    aaaaa

    1. tirachokko

      ugh new laptops – gotta find a grav i like again

      1. tirachokko

        hey that’s fitting

  51. tirachokko

    c’mon c’mon c’mon

    1. tirachokko

      nuts.

      1. Inahc

        slow down a little – the spambot sometimes eats people playing grav roulette. (if you do get eaten, you’ll have to change both name and email address to escape, iirc)

        1. tirachokko

          Hi! Don’t know if you will see this, but I got spat out again! No idea why. Just wanted to let you know(?)

  52. Griffin Raynor

    As someone who used to have the same beliefs as Joyce, and react to the idea of ‘my friends/peers having pre-marital sex’ in a similar way, I just want to say that yeah, that attitude is inappropriate and wrong, but it’s also a product of her upbringing and takes a while to shake. Religion of this kind is FULL of toxic mindsets that you have to outgrow if you’re raised in them. Joyce avoiding Becky and giving space for her discomfort is better than actively judging Becky or trying to tell her what to do.

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