i really, really hope the boundaries thing becomes an issue soon. it’s really starting to bug me more and more. this kind of behavior is one of those tropes that stopped seeming ok to me after i thought about it once. now i find it super worrisome. like tsunderes.
i really miss viewing all characters as 2d ‘tom and jerry’-style throw-aways.
Joyce has been given the ‘boundaries’ talk by Dorothy and Sarah. If neither of those got through to her, it’s gonna take something catastrophic to do so. Like snooping to find out Ethan’s make-out partner, judging him for it, and then getting spurned as a result.
I’m pretty sure she knows it’s Mike. That Ethan told her off panel.
Hence the “Aww” for seeing him off.
Nono
Thought that was more of an ‘Aww’ as in ‘Aww, Ethan’s not coming’.
cbwroses
Possibly. But that would mean Ethan just ignored/ her question the day before (off panel).
Since both options are off panel, I think it’s more likely he told her than he didn’t. Especially since if Ethan refused to say because he was ashamed/uncomfortable to admit it, that would be likely to make Mike tell her just because he’s Mike.
BBCC
I hope you’re wrong but I think you’re right it’s going to take someone getting hurt or angry with her to fix this. She tends to wilfully miss the point about boundaries or go ‘well, I know what’s best!’
Yeah, CAROL, that’s such a mystery, CAROL. Joyce even uses the full name ultimatum.
She is such a mom… and she does not have an unproblematic role-model
HMH
I mean, her entire value structure and life path was 100% set up to make her as much like her mother as possible, as that was the only valid inspiration and role model that a Good Christian GirlTM should respect as the sum of their life’s trajectory. She never had any sisters (which she could possible be aware of, anyway) and was clearly shielded from any problems that other families had within their feminine hierarchies.
She was deliberately taught, with absolute certainty and fervor, in a system that explicitly disallows disobeying authority figures, to become her mother. The only valid way Joyce knows how to be is motherly. She was never presented any other option. And she as never presented any other valid motherly role model than her own mother, and MAYBE the Virgin Mary.
Joyce is an adult now, and it’s her responsibility to make changes to better herself, but holding her accountable for being this way is absurd. There is no other conceivable way she could be; she never had any opportunities. We absolutely should hold her accountable for making those changes, but blaming her for being like this is a bridge to far, at least in my view.
You are complete right that she is the product of her upbringing, and Joyce has shown us again and again that she is a MUCH better person than they tried to make her (her taking Becky in comes to mind).
BBCC
I’m…really not a fan of this kind of idea. Everybody’s been raised to believe things, but that can’t really excuse bad behaviour in adults. Otherwise, we’d have all sorts of terrible things being excused (heck, that’s something people already use to excuse sexism, racism, etc. – ‘It was okay when I was growing up! It was okay back then!’). Joyce isn’t a child anymore. Her behaviour is solely on her now.
thejeff
Except she is still a child in many ways. She’s legally an adult, but still very dependent on her parents. There’s no instant binary switch from child to adult on your birthday, however the law treats it.
Joyce’s been out from under her mother’s control for something like 2 months and she’s made incredible strides – frankly ones that would likely break our suspension of disbelief if it hadn’t been 8 years for us. Joyce is becoming an adult, but she’s really not there yet – if nothing changes in the next few of her years, then it really will be solely on her.
And it’s not so much excuse her behavior as understand it – especially for those of outside the comic who can’t do anything about it – whether that would be push her out of our lives, confront her, or try to help her grow out of it.
If this is bad, how much worse her homophobia at the start of the strip. Was that already solely on her? She was an adult then, right?
BBCC
But she’s not. She’s an adult now. She’s a young adult which means she’s learning how to adult, so yes, she’s dependant on her parents, but she’s no longer a child. She’s responsible for her own behaviour and choices. I’m really not a fan of the whole ’18 is still REALLY a child’ idea either. No it’s not. 18 is recognized as an adult by most nations in the world. A young adult, yes, still a child, no.
She really is making incredible strides, yes, but that doesn’t make her not an adult responsible for her own behaviour.
Yes, her homophobia is on her, because again – she is an adult. And yes, she’s learned since then, but that doesn’t make her less responsible for things she did. That was still on her. Part of being an adult is being responsible for your own choices. Hell, CHILDREN are responsible for their choices too, although being under the guardianship of someone else puts constraints on that (because children have to answer to their guardians and they can be abusive as hell) and gives the guardian a responsibility to intervene sometimes.
I can understand explaining why Joyce is this way, but saying she’s not responsible because its how she was raised is just wrong to me. She’s still learning to adult, but she IS an adult.
thejeff
So, is it an instant switch then? One day you’re a kid and can be excused because you’re just a kid and it’s all the parents’ influence and the next day you have a party and are expected to magically shake their influence, despite nothing having actually changed – you’re still dependent on the same people. Note that for example abusive parents can continue that abuse long past their kids reaching 18. As we’ve seen with other character’s here. Does Ruth need to own her shit and stop blaming Clint?
I dunno. Maybe we’re talking past each other and just mean different things with “responsibility”. In a sense everyone is responsible for their choices. In another it takes time shake those early influences and you can’t really blame anyone for not doing so instantly.
Partly it’s me looking back on myself at that age decades ago and realizing just how immature I still was.
BBCC
One day you’re a kid and while you can’t be excused for your own choices since you’re still the one making them, your parents can be expected to intervene and try to set you on the right track (theoretically – Toedad and Blaine are two glaringly obvious examples of bad parents). At 18, you are expected to be responsible for your own choices. Carol and Clint can be blamed for influencing what their kids do, but Ruth and Joyce still did it. Ruth saying Clint’s abuse may have caused or worsened her depression? Reasonable. Ruth saying it’s Clint’s fault she thought it was okay to harass Billie? Unacceptable. Joyce saying Carol raised her to be a homophobic boundary stomping busybody? Reasonable. Joyce saying it’s Carol’s fault she ignores everyone else’s boundaries because she knows best? Unacceptable. It’s one thing to say where this behaviour comes form and another to say its not their fault because of it. No. Joyce is an adult making her own choices. Full stop.
It reminds me of a story about children on Venus locking their classmate in a closet. Thought I read it in 6th grade, so that might not actually be a name in it.
I had a bad experience with a neurosurgeon resident who nearly took me off my meds way too fast when I was 14, which kind of ruined it for me. Which is too bad because I really like the name.
Such is the force of her disappointment that Joyce has just retroactively middle-named Dorothy. As far as anyone knows, her middle name has always been Margot.
That baby will burn the world down with the power of its hate.
Doctor_Who
Now now, let’s not make assumptions.
I’m sure little Thanos Clinton-Warner will be an upstanding citizen.
BBCC
Sarah’s not letting Mike call the kid that, lbr. It’ll be named something sensible yet somehow the way they carry it will brim with disdain for all humanity.
220 thoughts on “Ugly-crying”
Ana Chronistic
Sarah: “well MY guess would be you flushed his McNuggets”
DarkoNeko
Or broke one of his figures
Bagge
Ceiling Joyce is watching you masturbate.
Ceiling Joyce is not big on boundaries.
Bagge
at least if you are Dorothy.
Plasma Mongoose
Ceiling Joyce can see down your top.
butts
she’s watching you fap
Plasma Mongoose
Or in Dotty’s case, schlick.
Lunarius Haberdash
Thank you for adding the word “Schlick” to my vocabulary.
Stellar
You say like it’s a bad thing…
Seven
Dorothy is Zone-tan? I always suspected; they both wear some kind of sweatered shirt…
butts
Joyce.
Plasma Mongoose
Dotty loves tentacles?
OH MY!
gkheyf
i really, really hope the boundaries thing becomes an issue soon. it’s really starting to bug me more and more. this kind of behavior is one of those tropes that stopped seeming ok to me after i thought about it once. now i find it super worrisome. like tsunderes.
i really miss viewing all characters as 2d ‘tom and jerry’-style throw-aways.
gkheyf
[i specifically meant tsundere violence]
Nono
Joyce has been given the ‘boundaries’ talk by Dorothy and Sarah. If neither of those got through to her, it’s gonna take something catastrophic to do so. Like snooping to find out Ethan’s make-out partner, judging him for it, and then getting spurned as a result.
Bagge
“This is no longer cute”
cbwroses
I’m pretty sure she knows it’s Mike. That Ethan told her off panel.
Hence the “Aww” for seeing him off.
Nono
Thought that was more of an ‘Aww’ as in ‘Aww, Ethan’s not coming’.
cbwroses
Possibly. But that would mean Ethan just ignored/ her question the day before (off panel).
Since both options are off panel, I think it’s more likely he told her than he didn’t. Especially since if Ethan refused to say because he was ashamed/uncomfortable to admit it, that would be likely to make Mike tell her just because he’s Mike.
BBCC
I hope you’re wrong but I think you’re right it’s going to take someone getting hurt or angry with her to fix this. She tends to wilfully miss the point about boundaries or go ‘well, I know what’s best!’
Wonder where she picked that up, CAROL.
Bagge
Yeah, CAROL, that’s such a mystery, CAROL. Joyce even uses the full name ultimatum.
She is such a mom… and she does not have an unproblematic role-model
HMH
I mean, her entire value structure and life path was 100% set up to make her as much like her mother as possible, as that was the only valid inspiration and role model that a Good Christian GirlTM should respect as the sum of their life’s trajectory. She never had any sisters (which she could possible be aware of, anyway) and was clearly shielded from any problems that other families had within their feminine hierarchies.
She was deliberately taught, with absolute certainty and fervor, in a system that explicitly disallows disobeying authority figures, to become her mother. The only valid way Joyce knows how to be is motherly. She was never presented any other option. And she as never presented any other valid motherly role model than her own mother, and MAYBE the Virgin Mary.
Joyce is an adult now, and it’s her responsibility to make changes to better herself, but holding her accountable for being this way is absurd. There is no other conceivable way she could be; she never had any opportunities. We absolutely should hold her accountable for making those changes, but blaming her for being like this is a bridge to far, at least in my view.
Bagge
You are complete right that she is the product of her upbringing, and Joyce has shown us again and again that she is a MUCH better person than they tried to make her (her taking Becky in comes to mind).
BBCC
I’m…really not a fan of this kind of idea. Everybody’s been raised to believe things, but that can’t really excuse bad behaviour in adults. Otherwise, we’d have all sorts of terrible things being excused (heck, that’s something people already use to excuse sexism, racism, etc. – ‘It was okay when I was growing up! It was okay back then!’). Joyce isn’t a child anymore. Her behaviour is solely on her now.
thejeff
Except she is still a child in many ways. She’s legally an adult, but still very dependent on her parents. There’s no instant binary switch from child to adult on your birthday, however the law treats it.
Joyce’s been out from under her mother’s control for something like 2 months and she’s made incredible strides – frankly ones that would likely break our suspension of disbelief if it hadn’t been 8 years for us. Joyce is becoming an adult, but she’s really not there yet – if nothing changes in the next few of her years, then it really will be solely on her.
And it’s not so much excuse her behavior as understand it – especially for those of outside the comic who can’t do anything about it – whether that would be push her out of our lives, confront her, or try to help her grow out of it.
If this is bad, how much worse her homophobia at the start of the strip. Was that already solely on her? She was an adult then, right?
BBCC
But she’s not. She’s an adult now. She’s a young adult which means she’s learning how to adult, so yes, she’s dependant on her parents, but she’s no longer a child. She’s responsible for her own behaviour and choices. I’m really not a fan of the whole ’18 is still REALLY a child’ idea either. No it’s not. 18 is recognized as an adult by most nations in the world. A young adult, yes, still a child, no.
She really is making incredible strides, yes, but that doesn’t make her not an adult responsible for her own behaviour.
Yes, her homophobia is on her, because again – she is an adult. And yes, she’s learned since then, but that doesn’t make her less responsible for things she did. That was still on her. Part of being an adult is being responsible for your own choices. Hell, CHILDREN are responsible for their choices too, although being under the guardianship of someone else puts constraints on that (because children have to answer to their guardians and they can be abusive as hell) and gives the guardian a responsibility to intervene sometimes.
I can understand explaining why Joyce is this way, but saying she’s not responsible because its how she was raised is just wrong to me. She’s still learning to adult, but she IS an adult.
thejeff
So, is it an instant switch then? One day you’re a kid and can be excused because you’re just a kid and it’s all the parents’ influence and the next day you have a party and are expected to magically shake their influence, despite nothing having actually changed – you’re still dependent on the same people. Note that for example abusive parents can continue that abuse long past their kids reaching 18. As we’ve seen with other character’s here. Does Ruth need to own her shit and stop blaming Clint?
I dunno. Maybe we’re talking past each other and just mean different things with “responsibility”. In a sense everyone is responsible for their choices. In another it takes time shake those early influences and you can’t really blame anyone for not doing so instantly.
Partly it’s me looking back on myself at that age decades ago and realizing just how immature I still was.
BBCC
One day you’re a kid and while you can’t be excused for your own choices since you’re still the one making them, your parents can be expected to intervene and try to set you on the right track (theoretically – Toedad and Blaine are two glaringly obvious examples of bad parents). At 18, you are expected to be responsible for your own choices. Carol and Clint can be blamed for influencing what their kids do, but Ruth and Joyce still did it. Ruth saying Clint’s abuse may have caused or worsened her depression? Reasonable. Ruth saying it’s Clint’s fault she thought it was okay to harass Billie? Unacceptable. Joyce saying Carol raised her to be a homophobic boundary stomping busybody? Reasonable. Joyce saying it’s Carol’s fault she ignores everyone else’s boundaries because she knows best? Unacceptable. It’s one thing to say where this behaviour comes form and another to say its not their fault because of it. No. Joyce is an adult making her own choices. Full stop.
Kamino Neko
Neither are Floor Joyce or Wall Joyce.
Tacos
How many other Joyces are there? Attic Joyce? Load-bearing Wall Joyce?
Bagge
Floor Joyce
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/detritus/
GJT
Joyce-t (joist).
CandidCanid
Margot! I always thought that name was pretty 😀
Yumi
It reminds me of a story about children on Venus locking their classmate in a closet. Thought I read it in 6th grade, so that might not actually be a name in it.
StClair
Nope, that’s correct.
Ray Bradbury – All Summer in a Day
Yumi
Hey, look at that. Guess it really imprinted on me,
Also, didn’t know it was by Ray Bradbury. Hm.
Brotato
Holy shit I’d forgotten about this.
Deadjolras
Just the other day I was rereading it and, yeah, I still consider it one of the saddest stories I’ve ever read.
HeySo
There’s also Transistor Zen’s <a href="https://open.spotify.com/album/2aFLHIibWJ4MVdfa52TLLg"song, which is based on blending the concepts of the short with “You are my Sunshine”, to an alt-rock style.
HeySo
There’s also Transistor Zen’s song, which is based on blending the concepts of the short with “You are my Sunshine”, to an alt-rock style.
There really needs to be a short-term post-edit function. 😛
BBCC
I had a bad experience with a neurosurgeon resident who nearly took me off my meds way too fast when I was 14, which kind of ruined it for me. Which is too bad because I really like the name.
BBCC
*neurologist
Plasma Mongoose
Don’t supposed she was middle named after Margot Kidder?
Opus the Poet
My headcanon has it as Margot Adler, Unitarian Pagan and author of Handmaid’s Tale.
C.
That’s Atwood.
C.
Margaret Atwood.
Opus the Poet
Author of Drawing Down the Moon
Opus the Poet
And why don’t underlines work for book titles in this forum?
JessWitt
Keener sounds akin to Kidder so I’d believe it. First thing that came to mind.
Plasma Mongoose
That’s even better.
Needfuldoer
I always thought her surname was based off the defunct toy manufacturer.
UniqueSnowflake2
Kenner? Fairly close. Now, if there were characters named Parker and Hassenfeld, we’d have a theme going.
DailyBrad
Uh oh, middle named!
Doctor_Who
Dorothy never even told Joyce her middle name. Joyce just knew.
She’s developing mom powers.
Dean
Such is the force of her disappointment that Joyce has just retroactively middle-named Dorothy. As far as anyone knows, her middle name has always been Margot.
Crusading Barista
Shit hits the fan when someone called out your full name.
AnvilPro
Forget that boring drama stuff, time for the Mike and Sarah friendship to begin!
Cheesy1
Oh Dear Lord! If those two hook up, their offspring will be the most hate-filled hell spawn ever conceived!
BBCC
That baby will burn the world down with the power of its hate.
Doctor_Who
Now now, let’s not make assumptions.
I’m sure little Thanos Clinton-Warner will be an upstanding citizen.
BBCC
Sarah’s not letting Mike call the kid that, lbr. It’ll be named something sensible yet somehow the way they carry it will brim with disdain for all humanity.
King Daniel
How about Timon?
BBCC
Timothy maybe?
Then when he reveals he’s an evil bitter ball full of hate, we can all say ‘What the fuck, Timmy?’
Marsh Maryrose
“There are some who call me…Tim.”
BBCC
That just reminds me of Tim Curry’s voice.
Zach
He’ll lead our nation!
By which I mean his nation.
All hail!
BBCC
I for one welcome our evil hate baby overlord (lady? Ruler?)
Chris Phoenix
He’s going to act like a hound cut loose
When he comes from the blackjack tree
He’s going to walk in proud shoes
All over Tennessee
Mr. Random
Of course. But they’ll be like a competent Martin Punchable-face.
Where their deeds are all within the confines of the law.
JessWitt
The world? Their baby will burn down hell itself with its hate.
BBCC
They already have a seat in hell.
It’s called the throne.
Emily
I think Sarah murdering Mike with a bat is the more likely outcome.
Clif