Someone really has to have a sit down with Dororhy and remind her that she doesn’t in fact have all the answers and that’s okey.
Steelbright
Yea I feel like that’s kinda the heart of it
Throwatron
If you think not having the objectively best answer to literally every conceivable question, can ever be something that is okay, you’ve never been sick in quite the way Dorothy is.
Yeah. I mean it is her choice, but its seems to me like she is trying to convince herself she takes certain actions out of pure altruism rather than fear of what could happen if she is a less than perfect friend (read: servant).
The behind-the-scenes caretaker. “Cherchez la femme” — behind every successful person is a supportive person, or a supportive crew.
Laura
…OK, upon a quick search I see I’ve been misled as to the meaning of “cherchez la femme”. I always thought it meant, “When you see a successful person, ‘look for the woman’ behind them — look for the support person or people in that person’s life, who made that person’s success possible.”
Jeff K!
Yeah, it means “chase the women” as in “womanizer”.
I learned that as a kid from reading the introduction to a Pogo collection. (Pogo Possum’s turtle friend is named Churchy Lafemme.)
Thag Simmons
Wikipedia says it’s about femme fatales in pulp fiction. Like it’s from an Alexandre Dumas book
someone
The original use of the saying is in a Dumas book where it’s in the context of finding the motive for the actions of a man. The sentence is uttered by someone who is convinced said actions are part of a scheme to impress a woman, so finding her would allow to unravel the whole plot. “Seek the woman!”
It’s not about chasing. This would be courez la femme instead, cf. “coureur de jupon” (skirt chaser).
The “seek the supportive person who made this man’s success possible” sounds like a feminist reclaiming of the expression, and I think I like this re-interpretation. It’s clever and very often accurate.
Thag Simmons
Yeah there’s a reason New Vegas used it as an alternative to “Black Widow”
Yeah, i associate that with 50’s noir private eye types, being all like “sex is the ultimate motive to every crime”.
I’d say that’s a saying that’s ripe for reclaiming. @Laura Your interpretation is a lot better and I support it =)
Also, here’s a thought. I see and appreciate the effort you make towards gender-neutral language, like “support person”.. But isn’t this one of those situations where it *is* still overwhelmingly women who support successful men, without being credited for their critical role in that success? I feel like this may be one of those cases where gender-neutral language just… kind of misses the point?? I mean, it was your point to make but hm. Yeah. It’s just a thought, i’m not especially confident about my opinion on this
Laura
Thanks, milu.
Yes, that’s what I meant — behind successful men are supportive women. “Cherchez la femme”. Look for the women waiting in the wings, the backstage crew. Look for the ones who area actually getting s*** done, not just taking the credit.
But that IS changing, bit by bit. There are supportive folks of all genders, and “successful” (public-facing) folks of all genders. So I figured I’d make a step toward the future and broaden the idiom.
Strangely, I also learned the phrase from reading “Pogo” as a child. (“The Kluck Klams” still brings me to tears. I’ve performed it a couple of times as a storyteller, but I don’t know how to do it respectfully enough when the subject matter is so sensitive and fraught with opportunities to cause inadvertent offense.)
It was my Dad who said that, “cherchez la femme”, meant, “Behind every successful man is a strong woman. Look for the women behind the scenes.”
Perhaps he just wanted to give me hope, when I was a child. That phrase (what I thought it meant) has been one of the guiding principles of my life. I’ve always thought my greatest achievement in life was supporting other people to achieve their own goals.
Leorale
Supporting people to achieve their own goals is indeed a great accomplishment. Just, there are a ton of highly supportive women who realize (usually around menopause) that they’ve supported others like bosses, but have never identified or chased their own goals, and it makes them feel really sad and angry.
I want to check in and remind you to identify your goals, too.
Your own desires are also completely worthy of attention, support, and getting achieved. <3
Leorale
(And ofc that also goes for any gender of person, that your goals are worthy. I made it gendered because this pattern has been observed very frequently in women, historically, so that it’s a Thing, where people raised as women should be especially cognizant of a cultural designation as Support Person. There! Gender has been solved.)
phew thanks Leorale, that was an annoying problem =D
yeah, it’s very much a Thing. so i guess my point was, isn’t it… a bit soon?? to be including all genders when talking about the invisible burden still mostly shouldered by women, mostly for the benefit of men, mostly with very little recognition, unlike the rare stay-at-home dad?
Lately i’ve been noticing a trend, and i have zero data or independent confirmation so far other than my own hunch, being that single dads seem super common in fiction? i feel like they are overrepresented on screen compared to the numbers in society, where obviously stay-at-home/single moms are way more common.
and many of these depictions are sympathetic; they tend to be devoted, though somewhat exhausted and clueless at times. (and yet the dad is so often the one to deliver the wise monologue of reconciliation with their kid at the end of coming-of-age stories.) A man changing nappies or playing with kids seems to attract a surplus of sympathy, and will often be portrayed as an unsung hero in other characters’ lives; whereas a woman being there for her kids and/or partner is more often framed as just doing unremarkable routine stuff, and her domestic work is rarely emphasized as praiseworthy.
To put it succinctly it feels like a stay-at-home dad is comedy, a stay-at-home mom social drama. you know?
i’m still very much unsure of what i’m trying to get at here, and also i’m a cis-ish straight-ish guy, so… grain of salt.
also, this may be a very white perspective, i feel like hip hop at least tends to acknowledge and praise the labour of motherhood. there may be other issues there to discuss, but i’m not equipped for that.
Laura
Thank you, Leorale. That means a lot to me, and I appreciate it very much. I really do.
I appreciate YOU.
…Having now reached the end of my childbearing years, you captured exactly how I feel.
And yet I’m still proud of the people I’ve managed to help, and still haunted by the ones I haven’t. :~)
Laura
Thanks, too, milu. That makes a LOT of sense.
Right now I’m watching “Attorney Woo,” and the single dad there definitely fulfills that trope!
Regardless of Gender, there needs to be a Frontline Pointperson and a Rear Guard Support Person. This makes me remember the dynamic from the Outlaw Star Anime. Jean Starwind was the Pointman, and Jim Hawking was the Backup.
One could also see the Outlaw Star Crew as a Raid Party. Melfina is the Healer. Jean Starwind is the Tank. Jim Hawking is the Operator. Twilight Suzuka and Aisha Clan-Clan are the DPS.
She’s SO gay, but she doesn’t want to face a part of herself that isn’t “presidential”, so she shuffled words around to make this look like grist for her mill. ?
I’m not sure if its the greatest episode of all time but is defiantly one of, if not, the best episodes of ds9 (which in my opinion is the best Trek Series).
Also, do you know why it is called “In the Pale Moonlight?” I assume its a reference to another work, for I don’t recall a single moon appearing in the episode.
Sajuuk-Khar
It’s a reference to, of all things, a line from Jack Nicholson portraying the Joker in the 1989 Batman movie, where he’d ask his victims “Hey, you ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?”
Sirksome
It’s cause Sisko chose to dance with the devil. That devil being Garak.
Sajuuk-Khar
“And all it cost was the life of one criminal…the life of one Romulan senator…and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. Now I don’t know about YOU…but I’d call that a bargain.”
Throwatron
It only just sunk in, how deliberately they must have chosen the job of “tailor” for him. He sells people whatever it is that they want to see.
Needfuldoer
Garak is easily in the top 5 best characters list.
Mark
Figuring out Garak eventually became the only reason I kept watching.
BarerMender
It’s a line in the song “Copper Kettle.” I’m not familiar with the Star Trek episode, so I can’t say if it’s apropos. https://youtu.be/CUpm0Bw9xWQ
Laura
That is such a beautiful song. Joan Baez is a national treasure.
And yes, the lyrics fit that episode perfectly.
Make your choices: choose sin. Choose lawlessness. Roll the dice. Pay your money, take your choice. Accept your actions.
BarerMender
Love it.
Thag Simmons
I think you could argue that while it’s one of the best episodes Star Trek ever made, it’s not one of the best Star Trek episodes.
It’s not really an episode that fits the spirit or tone of Trek, but it’s still an extremely good episode.
True Survivor
Yes. That sums it up perfectly. Though, ironically what I kind of liked about ds9 was that it took characters from the very white hat Federation and forced them into a region of space were events and issues were often very grey and what was right and what was perhaps necessary did not always align and could not always be made to – and yet the crew never stops trying to do the right thing. I think some of the best episodes of Star Trek are those that explore complex moral issues and don’t always come away with a clear answer.
Thag Simmons
Deep Space Nine is applying pressure to the utopian conceit of the Federation and asking what breaks, and that makes for a pretty compelling show but it does undercut a lot of the hopeful optimism.
Needfuldoer
I think that’s why they wrote Voyager, to carry on the “stop at a planet and have an adventure” formula. Equinox shows what could have happened to the crew if they abandoned the Federation’s principles with the singular goal of getting home ASAP.
Sajuuk-Khar
This is actually really key to the magic of DS9, I think: the Federation is still good, it’s very white-hat, as you said, but things don’t always work out for the best, even with everyone trying their best. Yet they don’t *stop* trying.
This is also what I’ve ended up feeling is missing from some newer outings, and why I get irritated at what I feel are repeated stabs at “what if the Federation was BAD ACTUALLY?”
GholaHalleck
DS9 reminds us that the utopia created in Trek is not a “one-and-done” system, that it needs to be maintained, and it’s still incredibly easy for humans to go back into dark places if they don’t hold themselves accountable.
*Googles “but it’s just the price I pag destiny is calling me” alt-text*
*Googles “Turning Saints into the sea” chapter title*
*Discovers both are from Mr Brightside by The Killers*
Is…. this where it comes together? I’, not sure I get it, and Daniel the Human is too tired to help out…
Mr. Brightside is a song about a man who believes he is being cheated on by his lover. It’s a song about jealousy of a perceived intruder on your relationship.
I guess Dorothy is Mr. Brightside in this story, which is an interesting parallel to draw.
Rabbit
Though interestingly from the music video:
The woman is not his lover, she’s a sexworker iirc? (it’s subtle but thats always how I saw the music video) So in reality he’s getting jealous over a projected/assumed relationship.
Don’t think that’s the angle Willis was aiming for here though.
Thag Simmons
I definitely think they’re meant to be a couple in the video, she’s a burlesque performer and he’s in the band, and he’s paranoid about his girlfriend working in a business where she has to perform sexuality with other men, and it ultimately destroys the relationship.
I’ll admit my understanding of Mr. Brightside is heavily influenced by it’s follow up / companion piece Miss Atomic Bomb which was them revisiting the same story and characters, and at least in that video, it really is all in his head.
It feels a little different to me. Dorothy kind of invented the problem that she solved. Joyce’s sexual development isn’t really Dotty’s business, as well meaning as this whole thing was.
Dorothy’s going to need to come to terms with the fact that even if she wants to she can’t be Joyce’s life manager. it’s setting herself up for stress and underlining resentment when her efforts don’t get thanked and setting Joyce up for learned helplessness because she’s continuing to let somebody else make the hard decisions for her.
308 thoughts on “Unglamorous”
Ana Chronistic
so was that YOUR laundry in that dryer, Dotty?
anon
pretty sure they both had baskets
ValdVin
Is this some sort of plan-ahead thing? Does drying something “lopsideable” like sneakers yield a better experience?
Asking for a friend.
TheScreenJockey
Even if entirely empty, clothes dryers still tend to produce a steady, consistent vibration (from the drum motor) that some might find pleasurable.
Pergola
Some modern machines will refuse to let you spin an unbalanced load. I have looked for this trope. TvTropes has failed me.
Opus the Poet
And any large imbalance would not be as satisfying as the gentle vibrations of the system functioning nominally.
S.R.
Yeah, I think most people prefer their sex toys to not be actively attempting to dislodge them.
Librain
With some notable exceptions, naturally.
DarkoNeko
Maybe it should be the relevant other people’s choice’s too.
CMasta1992
But that would require Dorothy not thinking she knows what’s best for everyone all the time
Archieve
Someone really has to have a sit down with Dororhy and remind her that she doesn’t in fact have all the answers and that’s okey.
Steelbright
Yea I feel like that’s kinda the heart of it
Throwatron
If you think not having the objectively best answer to literally every conceivable question, can ever be something that is okay, you’ve never been sick in quite the way Dorothy is.
Bryy
Yeah. As much as I think this is Dotty having an epiphany, I know it’s her doubling down.
Throwatron
They’re all 20 year olds. Their natural response to every epiphany they have, is immediately doubling down.
DanMan9820
They’re ~18-19, except Sarah, who is 20. (And of course Ruth and Jason are grad students, so ~23ish?)
MacareuxMoine
Ruth is 20 and not a grad student
GeekyWarrior
21 I believe as Daisy was her Birthday date and Jason was able to legally server her.
Caro
you certainly did make some choices today dorothy
Sirksome
It’s not very convincing if you have to repeat it.
True Survivor
Yeah. I mean it is her choice, but its seems to me like she is trying to convince herself she takes certain actions out of pure altruism rather than fear of what could happen if she is a less than perfect friend (read: servant).
Laura
Yeah. I know that feeling.
The behind-the-scenes caretaker. “Cherchez la femme” — behind every successful person is a supportive person, or a supportive crew.
Laura
…OK, upon a quick search I see I’ve been misled as to the meaning of “cherchez la femme”. I always thought it meant, “When you see a successful person, ‘look for the woman’ behind them — look for the support person or people in that person’s life, who made that person’s success possible.”
Jeff K!
Yeah, it means “chase the women” as in “womanizer”.
I learned that as a kid from reading the introduction to a Pogo collection. (Pogo Possum’s turtle friend is named Churchy Lafemme.)
Thag Simmons
Wikipedia says it’s about femme fatales in pulp fiction. Like it’s from an Alexandre Dumas book
someone
The original use of the saying is in a Dumas book where it’s in the context of finding the motive for the actions of a man. The sentence is uttered by someone who is convinced said actions are part of a scheme to impress a woman, so finding her would allow to unravel the whole plot. “Seek the woman!”
It’s not about chasing. This would be courez la femme instead, cf. “coureur de jupon” (skirt chaser).
The “seek the supportive person who made this man’s success possible” sounds like a feminist reclaiming of the expression, and I think I like this re-interpretation. It’s clever and very often accurate.
Thag Simmons
Yeah there’s a reason New Vegas used it as an alternative to “Black Widow”
Koms
I found another meaning: if there’s a problem, the cause of it must be a woman. How rude
milu
Yeah, i associate that with 50’s noir private eye types, being all like “sex is the ultimate motive to every crime”.
I’d say that’s a saying that’s ripe for reclaiming. @Laura Your interpretation is a lot better and I support it =)
Also, here’s a thought. I see and appreciate the effort you make towards gender-neutral language, like “support person”.. But isn’t this one of those situations where it *is* still overwhelmingly women who support successful men, without being credited for their critical role in that success? I feel like this may be one of those cases where gender-neutral language just… kind of misses the point?? I mean, it was your point to make but hm. Yeah. It’s just a thought, i’m not especially confident about my opinion on this
Laura
Thanks, milu.
Yes, that’s what I meant — behind successful men are supportive women. “Cherchez la femme”. Look for the women waiting in the wings, the backstage crew. Look for the ones who area actually getting s*** done, not just taking the credit.
But that IS changing, bit by bit. There are supportive folks of all genders, and “successful” (public-facing) folks of all genders. So I figured I’d make a step toward the future and broaden the idiom.
Strangely, I also learned the phrase from reading “Pogo” as a child. (“The Kluck Klams” still brings me to tears. I’ve performed it a couple of times as a storyteller, but I don’t know how to do it respectfully enough when the subject matter is so sensitive and fraught with opportunities to cause inadvertent offense.)
It was my Dad who said that, “cherchez la femme”, meant, “Behind every successful man is a strong woman. Look for the women behind the scenes.”
Perhaps he just wanted to give me hope, when I was a child. That phrase (what I thought it meant) has been one of the guiding principles of my life. I’ve always thought my greatest achievement in life was supporting other people to achieve their own goals.
Leorale
Supporting people to achieve their own goals is indeed a great accomplishment. Just, there are a ton of highly supportive women who realize (usually around menopause) that they’ve supported others like bosses, but have never identified or chased their own goals, and it makes them feel really sad and angry.
I want to check in and remind you to identify your goals, too.
Your own desires are also completely worthy of attention, support, and getting achieved. <3
Leorale
(And ofc that also goes for any gender of person, that your goals are worthy. I made it gendered because this pattern has been observed very frequently in women, historically, so that it’s a Thing, where people raised as women should be especially cognizant of a cultural designation as Support Person. There! Gender has been solved.)
milu
phew thanks Leorale, that was an annoying problem =D
yeah, it’s very much a Thing. so i guess my point was, isn’t it… a bit soon?? to be including all genders when talking about the invisible burden still mostly shouldered by women, mostly for the benefit of men, mostly with very little recognition, unlike the rare stay-at-home dad?
Lately i’ve been noticing a trend, and i have zero data or independent confirmation so far other than my own hunch, being that single dads seem super common in fiction? i feel like they are overrepresented on screen compared to the numbers in society, where obviously stay-at-home/single moms are way more common.
and many of these depictions are sympathetic; they tend to be devoted, though somewhat exhausted and clueless at times. (and yet the dad is so often the one to deliver the wise monologue of reconciliation with their kid at the end of coming-of-age stories.) A man changing nappies or playing with kids seems to attract a surplus of sympathy, and will often be portrayed as an unsung hero in other characters’ lives; whereas a woman being there for her kids and/or partner is more often framed as just doing unremarkable routine stuff, and her domestic work is rarely emphasized as praiseworthy.
To put it succinctly it feels like a stay-at-home dad is comedy, a stay-at-home mom social drama. you know?
i’m still very much unsure of what i’m trying to get at here, and also i’m a cis-ish straight-ish guy, so… grain of salt.
also, this may be a very white perspective, i feel like hip hop at least tends to acknowledge and praise the labour of motherhood. there may be other issues there to discuss, but i’m not equipped for that.
Laura
Thank you, Leorale. That means a lot to me, and I appreciate it very much. I really do.
I appreciate YOU.
…Having now reached the end of my childbearing years, you captured exactly how I feel.
And yet I’m still proud of the people I’ve managed to help, and still haunted by the ones I haven’t. :~)
Laura
Thanks, too, milu. That makes a LOT of sense.
Right now I’m watching “Attorney Woo,” and the single dad there definitely fulfills that trope!
ButWhyASpoon
Regardless of Gender, there needs to be a Frontline Pointperson and a Rear Guard Support Person. This makes me remember the dynamic from the Outlaw Star Anime. Jean Starwind was the Pointman, and Jim Hawking was the Backup.
ButWhyASpoon
One could also see the Outlaw Star Crew as a Raid Party. Melfina is the Healer. Jean Starwind is the Tank. Jim Hawking is the Operator. Twilight Suzuka and Aisha Clan-Clan are the DPS.
Laura
True that!
The Wellerman
She’s SO gay, but she doesn’t want to face a part of herself that isn’t “presidential”, so she shuffled words around to make this look like grist for her mill. ?
StClair
“So I will learn to live with it… because I can live with it. I can live with it. Computer, erase that entire personal log.”
Lumino
“In The Pale Moonlight” was the best Star Trek episode.
Sajuuk-Khar
Objectively correct Star Trek opinions today, I see. <3
Needfuldoer
Yes… Ha ha ha… YES!
True Survivor
I’m not sure if its the greatest episode of all time but is defiantly one of, if not, the best episodes of ds9 (which in my opinion is the best Trek Series).
Also, do you know why it is called “In the Pale Moonlight?” I assume its a reference to another work, for I don’t recall a single moon appearing in the episode.
Sajuuk-Khar
It’s a reference to, of all things, a line from Jack Nicholson portraying the Joker in the 1989 Batman movie, where he’d ask his victims “Hey, you ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?”
Sirksome
It’s cause Sisko chose to dance with the devil. That devil being Garak.
Sajuuk-Khar
“And all it cost was the life of one criminal…the life of one Romulan senator…and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. Now I don’t know about YOU…but I’d call that a bargain.”
Throwatron
It only just sunk in, how deliberately they must have chosen the job of “tailor” for him. He sells people whatever it is that they want to see.
Needfuldoer
Garak is easily in the top 5 best characters list.
Mark
Figuring out Garak eventually became the only reason I kept watching.
BarerMender
It’s a line in the song “Copper Kettle.” I’m not familiar with the Star Trek episode, so I can’t say if it’s apropos.
https://youtu.be/CUpm0Bw9xWQ
Laura
That is such a beautiful song. Joan Baez is a national treasure.
And yes, the lyrics fit that episode perfectly.
Make your choices: choose sin. Choose lawlessness. Roll the dice. Pay your money, take your choice. Accept your actions.
BarerMender
Love it.
Thag Simmons
I think you could argue that while it’s one of the best episodes Star Trek ever made, it’s not one of the best Star Trek episodes.
It’s not really an episode that fits the spirit or tone of Trek, but it’s still an extremely good episode.
True Survivor
Yes. That sums it up perfectly. Though, ironically what I kind of liked about ds9 was that it took characters from the very white hat Federation and forced them into a region of space were events and issues were often very grey and what was right and what was perhaps necessary did not always align and could not always be made to – and yet the crew never stops trying to do the right thing. I think some of the best episodes of Star Trek are those that explore complex moral issues and don’t always come away with a clear answer.
Thag Simmons
Deep Space Nine is applying pressure to the utopian conceit of the Federation and asking what breaks, and that makes for a pretty compelling show but it does undercut a lot of the hopeful optimism.
Needfuldoer
I think that’s why they wrote Voyager, to carry on the “stop at a planet and have an adventure” formula. Equinox shows what could have happened to the crew if they abandoned the Federation’s principles with the singular goal of getting home ASAP.
Sajuuk-Khar
This is actually really key to the magic of DS9, I think: the Federation is still good, it’s very white-hat, as you said, but things don’t always work out for the best, even with everyone trying their best. Yet they don’t *stop* trying.
This is also what I’ve ended up feeling is missing from some newer outings, and why I get irritated at what I feel are repeated stabs at “what if the Federation was BAD ACTUALLY?”
GholaHalleck
DS9 reminds us that the utopia created in Trek is not a “one-and-done” system, that it needs to be maintained, and it’s still incredibly easy for humans to go back into dark places if they don’t hold themselves accountable.
Meanwhile, on Picard…
eh, whatever
That’s the very annoying mirror universe.
Benjamin Geiger
IT’S A FAAAAAKE!
TheScreenJockey
Saying things more than once CAN make them more convincing . . . but yeah, doing so to yourself likely means you’re not already convinced.
Diane
Cause she’s Ms. Brightside?
Sajuuk-Khar
I keep saying this but I am beginning to think I was, like a Lovecraft or Chambers protagonist, mad from the very start
Screwball
*Googles “but it’s just the price I pag destiny is calling me” alt-text*
*Googles “Turning Saints into the sea” chapter title*
*Discovers both are from Mr Brightside by The Killers*
Is…. this where it comes together? I’, not sure I get it, and Daniel the Human is too tired to help out…
Thag Simmons
Mr. Brightside is a song about a man who believes he is being cheated on by his lover. It’s a song about jealousy of a perceived intruder on your relationship.
I guess Dorothy is Mr. Brightside in this story, which is an interesting parallel to draw.
Rabbit
Though interestingly from the music video:
The woman is not his lover, she’s a sexworker iirc? (it’s subtle but thats always how I saw the music video) So in reality he’s getting jealous over a projected/assumed relationship.
Don’t think that’s the angle Willis was aiming for here though.
Thag Simmons
I definitely think they’re meant to be a couple in the video, she’s a burlesque performer and he’s in the band, and he’s paranoid about his girlfriend working in a business where she has to perform sexuality with other men, and it ultimately destroys the relationship.
I’ll admit my understanding of Mr. Brightside is heavily influenced by it’s follow up / companion piece Miss Atomic Bomb which was them revisiting the same story and characters, and at least in that video, it really is all in his head.
Bobcat
Are we human, or are we dancer?
Puppeteer Nessus
Choose somethin else why doncha
Stephen Bierce
I think Phil just saw his shadow. Six more weeks of Winter.
DarkoNeko
Also, this is quite the big “head cheerleader, problem solver” mindset similarity right there, somehow
Sirksome
It feels a little different to me. Dorothy kind of invented the problem that she solved. Joyce’s sexual development isn’t really Dotty’s business, as well meaning as this whole thing was.
Archieve
Dorothy’s going to need to come to terms with the fact that even if she wants to she can’t be Joyce’s life manager. it’s setting herself up for stress and underlining resentment when her efforts don’t get thanked and setting Joyce up for learned helplessness because she’s continuing to let somebody else make the hard decisions for her.