324

Unwilling
Posted on November 4, 2021 by David M Willis

324 thoughts on “Unwilling”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    I feel like this is the wrong lesson but ok

    1. Ana Chronistic

      is a song forever?

      1. Decidedly Orthogonal

        Potentially, except if there is no distinguishable energy left in the universe to play it, or an organism to enjoy it, is it really a song any more?

    2. Decidedly Orthogonal

      Very much so. Good luck with that ear worm turning into a dragon Joe.

    3. thejeff

      Joe already knows the correct lesson: Wait until Danny’s asleep and use him as a camera mount.

  2. Doctor_Who

    Joe: Liz, I’d like to take you up on your offer, but I was hoping you’d wear something special for me.

    Liz: Ooh, something kinky? Sounds fun.

    Joe: Here.

    Liz: …This is a big triangle made out of white paper.

    Joe: Tape it to your mouth, please.

    1. King Daniel

      “A big triangle made out of white paper” didn’t know Joe had a fetish for his partner wearing a mask, but whatever floats his boat

    2. Disastromatic

      Triangle Joe, Triangle Joe, Triangle Joe hates Particle Man

      1. Kaidah

        They have a fight, Triangle wins. Triangle Joe. Hmm…doesn’t quite rhyme anymore. lol

    3. RacingTurtle

      Don’t forget the sweater vest

    4. bogeywoman

      I was thinking sweater vest

    5. Arianod

      But she already has the big triangle mouth?

  3. Jon

    Joe, no

    1. woobie

      I’m awaiting Sarah’s Joe-blocking move in 3… 2…

    2. Rose by Any Other Name

      **Bursts through the wall**
      Joe YEAH!

  4. Sirksome

    I’m actually not into this anymore.

    1. justin8448

      It was always going to be icky if they went through with it. On all sides.

      1. Knuf Wons

        I’m sure that the only certain thing this activity will bring is the opposite of “no consequences”

  5. alongcameaspider

    I suspect this idea is going to backfire spectacularly on Joe

    As it should tbh

    1. Clif

      What’s the worse that could happen.

      Oh, yeah. Sarah knows how to use a baseball bat.

      1. Name Name III

        Meh. If we let that kind of thing bother us then no one would get laid.

  6. Yotomoe

    https://imgur.com/a/xMJqdox
    I had a lotta stuff to do so no comic today.
    But here’s a little teaser for what I’m working on. Hopefully I can do it tomorrow.

    1. A Red Balloon

      It might not be licking (yet?) but I’ll take it!

      1. Yotomoe

        We’ll see. Maybe I can squeeze some in.

    2. Yotomoe

      Fun fact I redrew Liz’s hand like 5 times and I eventually hated all of them. Whoever came up with hands was a bastard.

      1. Decidedly Orthogonal

        > Whoever came up with hands was a bastard

        Sounds like something a monkey would do.

      2. Opus the Poet

        Just put her hands down his pants so you don’t have to draw fingers. Fingers are the worst parts about hands to draw.

      3. Rabid Rabbit

        On the other hand (hur hur hur), without hands you wouldn’t be able to draw.

        But yeah, evolution’s a bongo.

        1. Just_IDD

          On the other hand, you have different fingers.

      4. milu

        as someone who spent 50% of my high school classes drawing, i think hands are a lot easier than faces. which is to say i really admire your faces, very expressive and consistent

    3. Nono

      I’m surprised you haven’t done much Liz+Malaya yet.

      1. Yotomoe

        They definitely fulfill very similar apeals to me. But i think my focus is gonna be on this trist for a while before I branch out to Liz and other characters. Also I don’t think I’ve drawn timeskip Malaya at all yet.

    4. Rose by Any Other Name

      **grins and claps hands enthusiastically**

    5. acher4

      wow… That’s niiiice 😀

    6. Sunny

      Remember that his chest hair has to go all the way down to his feet.

    7. Rabid Rabbit

      Not enough chest hair.

    8. Deanatay

      It looks like Joyce walked in at the wrong time.

      Or the right time

      1. milu

        you’ll need to catch up on yesterday’s 1st installment for context!
        there’s not much context. but Joyce didn’t just walk in =)

    9. Rose by Any Other Name

      … I just clicked on your name and started reading everything.
      I had to pause because… is that Mayala drawn as Bunnie Rabbot?

      Also… holy shit, I have only seen like a small portion of these.

      This deep dive must continue!

  7. Mano308gts

    Ya’all over here posting from the future of 12:05, when the time itself is still 12:02… Also, Joe, No!

    1. Decidedly Orthogonal

      The backend comment server is well-documented at being 5 minutes ahead. It’s a thing.

  8. Dave Van Domelen

    Come back when you grow up, girl. You’re still livin’ in a paper doll world….

  9. Cmasta1992

    As someone who has hooked up with someone to “get it out of my system” there is always another temptation. It never ends.

  10. A Red Balloon

    Oooooooooooh here we GO!!!!!!

  11. Jon

    The, uh, the final panel of “Goddammit, Malaya” really turns up like a bad penny, huh

  12. AntJ

    Liz is just here to expose everyone, isn’t she

    1. Yotomoe

      I mean, it’d be hard to have sex with Joe without exposing him.

      1. King Daniel

        Oh, it’d definitely be hard alright

      2. Decidedly Orthogonal

        They could use a tent and keep the lights out. They could go all mormon and ‘soak’. ?
        Or, I suppose if they were in missionary before exposing their genitals, they could then unzip Joe and he could enter Lucy without visibly exposing himself. Skirts & dresses can also facilitate this.

        1. Yotomoe

          I definitely do enjoy sex under skirts. Like aesthetically I’ve never experienced it.

          Also I know you meant Liz, because Joe is a nice guy and he wouldn’t try to get with a girl who is clearly in a committed relationship. Also I can’t picture Lucy or Liz wearing a skirt. But I feel like Lucy would look cute in one. and then she could sit on Walky’s dong

        2. Rose by Any Other Name

          It really depends on the skirt. Material and length both matter.

        3. BarerMender

          I especially like oral sex under a skirt. And I have experienced it.

        4. A Red Balloon

          Just imagining that really puts a smile on my brain!

          I wonder what a DOA fanart of it would do….

        5. Yotomoe

          I was thinking the other day about how men often take off the garterbelt from their wife at weddings. And just how hot ducking down under this big billowing dress looks to me. Just imagining a bride sitting there with a big dress as her husband gives her a treat from under it.

        6. Rose by Any Other Name

          I, um, think that might take a bit longer than would be available to one in that moment.

          Also, even if it didn’t, I don’t think I would want to be having any orgasms in front of my elderly family members.

          Wedding logistics kinda suck for actual sexytimes, sadly.

        7. Kazuma Taichi

          Ex of mine was a cosplayer. We made her a cosplay one year with a big bell skirt. During a convention day she needed her stockings adjusted and asked me to pop under and fix it.

          When I came back out, we both immediately discussed how we could get away with keeping me down there in public, but alas our plans for the day either had us in chairs that wouldn’t allow for it, or needed to be on the move. But 20 seconds underneath fixing a sock was enough for us to know that it was something really hot that we’d like to explore deeper.

        8. Yotomoe

          THIS. This is definitely the vibe I had haha.

        9. Rose by Any Other Name

          Yeah, sorry, I’m not really into sex in public spaces.

          That said, I do love long, dress-like lingerie. And there’s a certain spicy appeal in having sex while partly (or almost fully) clothed.

          Plus I just love wearing skirts and dresses in general.

    2. mrnoidea

      She’s chaotic neutral!

  13. Yotomoe

    I have this strong feeling Joe will either fail to go through with it, or he’ll lose his game and be very frank with her halfway through.

    1. Jon

      That’s my current top theory too. I think this is going to turn into drama before they’re finished…maybe even before they start.

    2. Decidedly Orthogonal

      He’s putting an awful lot of work into talking himself into this. Watch lil’joe refuse to come out and play.

      1. Yotomoe

        The spirit is willing but Little Joe is a little traitor.

    3. Plain Marie

      My thoughts exactly. We know who he really wants. Liz is weak sauce in comparison.

  14. Nono

    Okay, I’m going with 40% change it doesn’t happen because Liz starts crying halfway, and 30% Liz cries after it’s done because the gravity of it sinks in.

    1. RacingTurtle

      Which of the remaining 30% represents the chance of Joe crying

      1. Yotomoe

        Of course there is also the chance that everyone cries. Even you.

        1. Jon

          Joke’s on you, I’m already crying

        2. RacingTurtle

          This is so correct that I think I’ll cry about it. You know, get a good head start

        3. Geneseepaws

          Waaaalllll, where I’m from, Autumn, when the leaves come down, is the season of Mold & allergies. So I’m not crying yet, … But my eyes are already leaking like the Missouri…

    2. Agemegos

      I’m still betting that Liz comes through totally okay, but that Joe ends up a mess of regrets.

      1. Yotomoe

        Joe just looks like Shinji in the chair and Liz is just patting his back, ready for round 2.

      2. BarerMender

        Yeah, Joe is the one in love with another party.

      3. Spencer

        This is what I think I’ll happen.

        It’s like Ken in Shortpacked!, it’s something that made him feel more confident in himself that he stopped pining over Malaya and went on with his life.

        Joe is gonna get fucked up real hard because he’s starting at “what does sex mean to me anymore, how do I connect with a woman?” and diving straight for a psychosexual guilt complex where he’s probably going to start asking his future partners to wear sweater vests.

  15. Jamie

    Ha! Good enough for me to say I called that.

    So this is why Danny never took off his coat.

    1. Geneseepaws

      You can leave your hat on.

  16. Yotomoe

    Danny looks annoyed that he’s gonna have to vacate despite there being a girl at the door who wants to have sex with Joe. Like I get that it’s inconvenient but the alternative is just staying and watching. Which I mean if everyone’s cool with that you totally could but like…I dunno seems like something you shoulda been prepared for the second liz came to the door.

    1. Kavonde

      You can be aware of an inevitability and still be frustrated by it.

      Insert observation about American politics here.

    2. thejeff

      I mean, it’s his room too. He doesn’t actually have to let them have sex there right here and now. Not quite clear to me what time it is either – is he being kicked out for the night or just a little while? Liz is probably looking to spend the night.

      Of course the funny part will be when Sal comes in the window looking for him.

      1. milu

        it’s not that late, a few strips ago Danny commented that he hated it when it got dark at 5:30

    3. kendermage

      I had a couple of high school classmates who became dorm mates in college. Curt started dating a text book nymphomaniac. Jay learned to sleep through anything, and was thankful when he saw the nympho drag a strange guy into his room while Curt was in class. He was thankful because it was the third time she was *caught* cheating, and she got dumped. Curt and nympho’s relationship lasted from November to just past spring break. Jay might have tips for Danny to survive with his sanity and back intact.

  17. RassilonTDavros

    Well, I can think of several ways this could go wrong.

    Like, I’ll admit I have no actual experience here, but I get the strange feeling that sleeping with someone who reminds you of the person you’re really in love with is… not likely to help you work out those feelings.

    1. Jon

      No, but it IS peak sitcom/romcom logic, and therefore optimized for drama!

    2. Agemegos

      No. No, it is not. This is not the way for Joe to stop nursing his crush on Joyce.

    3. Nono

      You know, I just realised that Joe’s known partners have been Roz, Malaya, possibly Liz, and he’s lusted after Sarah and Sal before. None of them white like Joyce.

      Probably means nothing really, but Joyce is certainly outside his usual target. Though I guess he did rate Rachel an 11.

      1. Jon

        I believe we’re meant to think Joe has had at least dozens of partners in college thus far, and he hasn’t really made any comments on skin tone. I’m quite certain any perceived “type” in terms of skin color is entirely coincidence based on who we’ve happened to canonically see him with.

        1. thejeff

          Joe certainly meant everyone to think that. It’s not entirely clear how true it is. Some of it, like the threesomes, was definitely not real.

          I do agree that the skin color thing is likely not significant.

      2. Agemegos

        There was also Penny, who is more demelanised than Joyce.

        https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/twelvethirty/

        1. Agemegos

          And he rated Rachel an eleven.

      3. zee

        Brown girls are just hot

        I should clarify IM a brown girl, not a fetishist

  18. Blibdoolpoolp

    Brilliant plan, don’t address the ex-christian elephant in the room, whoseJoyceneverheardofhernosir

  19. ReFlex76

    He’s totally yelling Joyce’s name mid-climax.

    1. Yotomoe

      And mid-thrust. And while they’re kissing. When she takes off her bra. As she walks into the room. And as she goes home. And maybe even when texting her tomorrow.

    2. Nono

      10% chance Liz is the one yelling Joyce’s name.

      1. Yotomoe

        Would it be awkward if they both yelled Joyce’s name? Or would it be hotter?

        1. Rose by Any Other Name

          On one hand, I’ve always found that two partners both finding a third party attractive usually ends well for the partners so long as both are open and willing to communicate about it.

          That said, I’ve never really gotten yelling a partner’s name during. Like, I’ve tried to do so intentionally, and it’s really difficult to manage nouns at all in that moment. Dirty talk works better as foreplay and during afterglow when one’s brain is functional again.

        2. The Wellerman

          I love every single word in this paragraph!!!!!!!

          I’m upvoting this for sure!

        3. milu

          @Yoto oh, that’d be hot. and hilarious.
          @Rose wow, you get really lost into the action huh. you don’t even, like, randomly mumble the person’s name, or whatever sexy word they want to be called? someone once asked me to call her mommy during the action.
          listen, was it weird? eh, a bit. but it got them off something crazy. and it wasn’t in my native tongue so that helped. ^^

        4. eh, whatever

          You randomly mumble names?

        5. milu

          to be fair i’m a mumbler of random things at the best of times.

        6. milu

          also i should say i super didn’t mean to kinkshame, mommy kink is not a thing for me so it was weird *for me*, but it was really really sweet to be trusted to do this thing for the person, and them being turned on was so hot in and of itself. ok that’s enough TMI from me for now :blush:

        7. Rose by Any Other Name

          In the heat, I’m usually not very articulate. I can’t manage more than the occasional string of encouraging swear words.

          I’m better with kinky name-calling when I’m the one giving rather than receiving.

        8. Spencer

          That’s had to have happened by now in something.

    3. Deanatay

      Joe yells Joyce’s name during sex.

      Turns out Liz is okay with role-play.

      1. Yotomoe

        “Oh my god, this is what we’re doing? Ok, I’ve got a sweater and I think I can get some fake glasses from party city. Should I wear a blonde wig? Would that make it hotter? And can I call you Keanu?

  20. anonymsly

    Oh Joe. I’m pretty sure Feelings don’t work like that.

    1. Needfuldoer

      Wait, bottling them up and then throwing that bottle off a cliff doesn’t work?

      1. AGV

        There’s a point in which that bottle becomes a pressurized tank

      2. thumb

        I mean, technically it does. Good luck getting that bottle out of your chest before you chuck it.

        1. milu

          oof that’s dark =C

  21. misanthropope

    maybe he’ll get lucky and the bat is the worst that’ll happen to him.

    1. Yotomoe

      I know what you ment but I’m just imagining batman busting in to stop Joe from going down on a woman.

      1. milu

        ok so i know pretty much nothing about batman, i may only have seen a like the Tim Burton movie forever ago, but i know what Batman looks like right? and, this can’t be just me, but he looks like he should be helllla kinky. like, this form-hugging black getup? (is it latex?) this mask? come on, how is that not fetishwear.

        1. milu

          may have been thinking too hard about batman’s pecs to remember to close my italics tag there

        2. Yotomoe

          Haha it’s based on a joke where someone working on harley quinn said DC was against them making a scene where batman goes down on Catwoman. To be honest I am also of the opinion that batman could and should be a master at eating pussy, but I don’t work for DC.

  22. butts

    joe

    joe no

  23. newlland(Henryvolt)

    He had the ball and he dropped it right before the goal. Oh well it is Joe after all maybe we just set the bar to high and besides opportunity like this is becoming more and more rare for him.

  24. Josh Spicer

    Come the fuck on Joe.

    Could we just please stop with this back and forth?

    1. Yotomoe

      Back and forth, up and down, in and out. That’s all Joe knows how to do.

  25. BBCC

    Sorry, Joe, you jinxed it. You just practically mandated Liz either stick around or return.

    Welp, have fun scratching that Joyce shaped itch, Joe.

    1. Yotomoe

      It’s like feeding a stray cat. I’m sure there’s a pussy double entendre there that I’m not quite raunchy enough to make.

      1. Agemegos

        “Do not feed the stray pussy”?

        1. Rose by Any Other Name

          **makes a face**
          I’m one of the few American women I know who hates the p-word and far prefers the c-word when referring to female genitalia.

        2. Yotomoe

          I’m not a huge fan of either to be fair but my default is the former rather than the latter cuz it at least sounds cuter? [C-word] sounds so damn sharp. I just hate the arrangement of letters in [P-word]. P at the begging, two S’s in the middle. Feels weird.

        3. Yotomoe

          On that topic “Dick” is a super satisfying word to say. God just rolls off the tongue. Hard D at the begining, hard K at the end. Primo genital based cuss word.

        4. Rose by Any Other Name

          Hm. Interesting that you dislike hard consonants for female genitalia but prefer it for male. You also used terms like “cute” for the female organ and “hard” for the male.

          That’s not a criticism; I am finding this conversation more fascinating than I initially expected.

          My preferred term for male genitalia is “phallus” because it’s fancy.

        5. Rose by Any Other Name

          See, I like the c-word because it’s technically historically and scientifically accurate. From the latin “cunnus” meaning vulva.

        6. Yotomoe

          I think my favorite slang for it is “snatch”. It’s rude and sharp sounding but not quite as sharp as c-word.

        7. thejeff

          The origin is disputed. There are also potential Norse/Germanic roots.

          Apparently the first recorded use in English is the Oxford street name “Gropecongalane”.

        8. thejeff

          The filter here does suffer from the Scongahorpe problem.

    2. Kyrik Michalowski

      I wonder how long it will keep him from admitting his feelings for Joyce. Also, if Liz has sleeps with Joe, and Joyce finds out, what are the odds of Joyce being upset with Joe/Liz versus Joyce wanting to have sex too?

      Considering how much Joyce is seemingly trying to be like Liz, I have my concerns.

  26. Kyrik Michalowski

    This is going to be a field day of mistakes and bad choices.

    By the way, since Joe offered to be a way for Sarah to vent, how much worse can this get?

  27. Rani

    Could someone please explain to me why Joe sleeping with her would be wrong or immoral?

    1. Jon

      Generally speaking, trying to bang someone BECAUSE they remind you of your friend is not a great look.

      Also because Liz is throwing out several red flags that she’s seemingly pushing herself into this and may not actually be totally comfortable with it

    2. Nono

      There’s nothing legally wrong with it, it’s two consenting adults.

      But there’s a lot of potential for regrets to be had. Joe is gonna sleep with Liz to get Joyce out of his head. Liz is sleeping with someone to shake off being Christian.

    3. Madock345

      I don’t think it’s unethical, (She’s sober, actively consenting, and of-age) but it’s *socially* a bad move, complicating his relationships. It’s also bad for Joe himself since he’s engaging in sex as a coping mechanism instead of just for fun.

    4. carcinoGeneticist

      I’m sure the last few days’ worth of comments have plenty of opinions on the subject.

      Mostly though it boils down to “Liz maybe doesn’t actually want to do this and Joe maybe should be picking up on that possibility.” Whether you agree with that angle is up for grabs.

      1. bogeywoman

        and also “Joe maybe doesn’t actually want to do this either”

        1. Heatth

          Yeah, to me that is the main thing now. Joe don’t want to do this. That was the punchline last page. The only reason he is going through it is because of his hang ups with Joyce which can’t be good for anyone, least of all for Joe.

      2. thejeff

        The weird thing to me is that very few of those comments have outright anything about it being immoral or even wrong, but there’s a section of the commentariat that reads any indication that it might not be a good idea as saying that. Or at least the idea that Joe might give the slightest consideration to whether Liz is really as ready for this as she says she is.

        1. Rose by Any Other Name

          Yeah. Yesterday got weird. I feel like a lot of people brought their own personal strawmen with them to shout at. I honestly had no idea what was going on half the time. I even had a post when I was like “wait, is this what you’re saying?” and got a reply that was like “no, the opposite” so clearly I had no fucking clue what was happening.

        2. Spencer

          Or at least the idea that Joe might give the slightest consideration to whether Liz is really as ready for this as she says she is.

          This is a weird comment to make about a strip where Joe decides why Liz herself is incapable of being ready for sex and Danny goes “bruh you told me how stupid that was when I did it.”

    5. Yotomoe

      Both of them would be doing it for the wrong reason. Liz wants to do it as a form of rebellion, Joe wants to do it to get over someone he’s crushing on. They both kinda have ulterior motives. I guess in a weird way it is kind of an equivalent exchange of fucking.

      ie. They’re fucking the idea of each other. Not the actual people in the room.

      1. Regalli

        It’s gonna be an absolute trainwreck on both sides. I’ll get the popcorn.

        1. Geneseepaws

          I left the butter and salt on the counter for us. Parmesan is in the deli drawer in the ‘fridge.

      2. StClair

        Well put. :/

      3. BarerMender

        “They’re fucking the idea of each other. Not the actual people in the room.” I had a relationship like that. Lasted for months, ended with no pain. But we were middle-aged. It wasn’t a first mistake for either of us.

        1. SillyGoose

          Fucking the idea of each other is the core concept of a one-night stand with a total stranger. As long as everyone’s on the same page, go for it.

      4. The Wellerman

        They are Transmuting their current problems for problems they’d rather deal with.

        It’s a rather fair and Equivalent Exchange.

        And that’s The Truth.

    6. bleepbloop

      Joe is aware that Liz is a naive girl only doing this because she’s going through an identity crisis, and will probaby regret it immediately after. It’s the same reason he would reject Joyce if she threw herself at him at this point in her journey. He’s basically deciding that because he doesn’t really know Liz that her inevitable feelings of regret wouldn’t matter to him as much as Joyce’s. Also because he’s just using her as a proxy for Joyce which is all kinds of ick.

    7. DiDi

      Eh… I don’t know if it’s either of these things precisely.

      But it’s very clear now that Joe is planning to use Liz as a flat out substitution for Joyce and is basically going to use her so he doesn’t have to face the feelings he has.

      Granted, since Liz wants to use him in turn just to prove a point to herself and everyone she knows back home, it doesn’t come off as awful.

      Ultimately, the fact that Sarah would not approve and Joe knows this is probably the only true reason this is wrong. He’s been trying to make nice with her and change his ways.

      Doing this will piss all his progress away that he made with her and probably other people on campus.

      Mostly, everyone is just expecting there to be massive drama when this gets out. Because if Joe manages to go through with it, it’s going to get out. Sarah will know. Joyce will know.

      It won’t be pretty.

    8. carms

      idk about morally wrong, just inadvisable and a bad idea. lets go ahead and maximise the potential for regrets.

      Just cos they both have bad-for-them reasons to bone doesn’t make it WRONG

    9. Rose by Any Other Name

      Yeah, as carms said, nothing wrong or immoral at all. They’re two consenting adults, they are free to have-at.

      The issue, rather, is that it is a very bad idea from an emotional standpoint for both of them. Train wreck incoming.

      But, as everyone is fond of saying, the name of the comic is Dumbing of Age not Smarting of Age. Stupid teenaged mistakes incoming – grab some popcorn and enjoy the ride.

    10. not someone else

      I mean she is throwing up a lot of red flags that imply this might not be a consent that’s informed and truly felt, but also maybe it is. A mature partner would sit her down and talk through it, but Joe’s lack of maturity ironically makes it less ethically squiggly because he doesn’t know enough to know he could manipulate the fuck out of her with the confession she gave.

    11. Sombrero

      Immoral – No
      Wrong – Just two words: The.Bat.

    12. Spencer

      In terms of “two adults boning?” Nothing at all.

      For Liz, well, I’ve been pretty insistent that if someone says they want it, then they can go for it. Having sex to assert yourself or rebel against a stifling status quo is a pretty good reason, at least to me, and I think it ending poorly is a responsibility to face as an adult who can choose for themselves.

      For Joe it’s because he’s trying to fuck his way out of having feelings for Joyce with someone who’s exactly like Joyce. He’s still allowed to do that but holy shit is this going to snap him in half.

      1. ischemgeek

        Yeah, same.

        It’s not wrong or immoral in a good vs evil or morality and ethics sense to me.

        It’s probably a bad idea for Joe in particular because I don’t think he actually wants to. But he’s a grown adult who gets to make the decision himself.

        IDK if Liz actually wants to or no, but again, she’s a grown adult who gets to make the decision for herself. She’s the instigator and proposed it entirely of her own free will and initiative. It’d be pretty damned paternalistic for someone to think they’re better equipped than she is to make her decisions for her.

        Like something Joe needs to learn is just because something isn’t morally wrong doesn’t mean it’s the right decision for you in that moment. It’s not morally wrong for me to take a sewing class, but I am a person with such atrocious fine motor coordination I almost flunked home ec after sewing myself to my project on a sewing machine no less than 3 times and finally getting banned from using them. Also I hate sewing and most handicrafts because I am so incredibly god awfully inept at them. So it’s not morally wrong, but probably not a good decision for me in particular.

        Likewise, given Joe’s crush on Joyce and the fact he’s obviously trying to use Liz as a surrogate Joyce, and given Joyce’s increasing awareness of and attraction to Joe, plus her own hangups, I don’t see this ending well for him.

    13. Thag Simmons

      It’s not inmoral, it’s just probably a mistake given where his head’s at right now

    14. Amós Batista

      nothing, two hot people doing the sex

  28. Raen

    All you had to say not to Dan this up was nothing.

  29. bleepbloop

    Oh he’s nasty for this that’s all I can say

  30. Deadjolras

    I winced so hard I think I sprained something.

  31. bleepbloop

    So Liz is either going to fall in love with him off this one hookup or something much worse and permanent but also more soap opera-y could happen. We shall see. Either way Joyce is finding out eventually.

    1. justin8448

      I’m pretty sure they’ll both just regret it / realize it didn’t actually give them what they each wanted. Assuming they even get that far.

  32. Rocketboy1313

    “Try not to be offended if… when… I call you someone else’s name.”

    1. Yotomoe

      The irony is that either could do that and I wouldn’t be shocked.

    2. thejeff

      Oh, she could do much worse than get offended.

      She could tell Joyce about it.

      1. Rocketboy1313

        That is not worse.
        I would be comfortable with my friends letting people I am attracted to know that I am attracted.

        1. thejeff

          In general sure, though this is an awkward way to find out. In this particular case though, I don’t think Joe would be happy.

  33. UrsulaDavina

    Did Joe forget the whole Sarah factor here?

    Like i am fairly certain Liz will tell Sarah to brag maybe not use Joe’s name but Sarah is pretty clever and will likely find out. But I guess the power of bones overrides fear.

    Tbh though Sarah shouldn’t judge her sisters choices in this manner they are consenting adults and neither seemed to be impared. So her sisters hornniness is really none of her business.

    1. Yotomoe

      Maybe he’s accepted an ass whooping by Sarah as a punishment he probably has coming.

      1. UrsulaDavina

        Yeah that’s sounds about right. It’s troubling though that Joe would accept violence as a means of punishment and Sarah would default to violence as means of expressing displeasure.

        They need some group consoling.

        1. Yotomoe

          They do have group counseling. Joe, Sarah and the bat have had intimate discussions.

    2. MrSmith

      I mean is it better explained than this:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZHkkLBOrvE

    3. Wizard

      IIRC, Sarah made a point of telling Joe that Liz was 18, implying that she was fair game. Not giving him permission, exactly, but at least suggesting she was resigned to the idea.

      1. Agemegos

        And in the next strip she strongly urged Joe “Don’t try to bang my little sister!”

        https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/edible/

        1. justin8448

          Definitely some mixed messages coming out of Sarah there.

        2. Yotomoe

          “She’s legal, she’s dtf, she’s hot and I hear she’s fantastic in bed, but also don’t do it. She’s just incredibly thirsty and a very generous lover and I don’t want you to go near her. I’m giving her the keys to your room and telling her what lingerie you like but I don’t want you to do anything!”

        3. Opus the Poet

          “Which one?”

        4. thejeff

          Technically he’s not trying to bang her. She’s trying to bang him and apparently going to succeed.

    4. thejeff

      Pretty sure Sarah won’t actually resort to the bat, especially if Liz brags about it to her.
      If Liz is messed up by this in some fashion though, Sarah might be how it comes back to haunt Joe – though still not likely in as direct form as the bat.

  34. Muttski

    Aaaannd…Joe isn’t going to do the right thing.

    Damnit. ?‍♂️

    Of course, Joyce or Sarah will find out eventually. Damnit Joe.

    1. Deanatay

      Joe almost talked himself out of it.

      Then he talked himself back into it.

      1. thejeff

        And he did so for reasons that are even worse.

  35. Amós Batista

    Ugh, finally the saga of hot people looking (not so much) for sex is over… Let’s go back to broken and normal people of this webcomic.

    1. Yotomoe

      I wish hot people looked for sex with me…

      1. Amós Batista

        Me too, that’s why I’m bitter.

        1. Kim

          Relatable corner over hear, hear

  36. TemporalShrew

    Pffffffffffft. Now that’s what I call desperation, Joe.

  37. Kitschensyngk

    I beg you, Joe, don’t drag your body into the cragged shame pit of the lustwolves!

    1. Dana

      Saying I laughed out loud to this feels like underselling it.

    2. Keulen

      I’m pretty sure Joe already did that a very long time ago.

      1. thejeff

        He’d climbed about 10′ up a crag and is now throwing himself back in.

  38. Cheshrin

    Joe, no, that’s not how Feelings work, that’s not how anything works.

    1. milu

      that’s how vaccines work…?

      1. milu

        wait no. i guess in this analogy he’s already sick so, vaccine not good.

        i guess it is how getting a song out of your head works, though

  39. Johan

    ?

  40. Robert

    This is weird for me, because if I’d bumped up against a Liz back in college, she would have definitely opened my nostrils.

    Which is something my husband might have a good laugh about.

    1. milu

      Storytime!

  41. Uly

    Joe, you’re not going to be free. You’re going to be filled with guilt and self-loathing, and you STILL won’t be over Joyce. (But maybe you’ll finally admit you’re into her?)

  42. Dr. T

    Uh, Joe….That’s not how it actually works. That won’t get it out of your system. If it’s anywhere near enjoyable then it will only establish itself as your new kink. BELIEVE ME. Doing it once to get it out of your system is not a great idea.

  43. DailyBrad

    I kinda get the feeling Joe’s NOT going to do this. Like, this doesn’t sound like a guy who is THAT convinced.

  44. Bagge

    Well, he thought about it before acting.

    1. milu

      which arguably makes it worse?

  45. Reltzik

    Nothing could possibly go wrong with this plan, and I unreservedly endorse it.

  46. PB

    So the song stuck in his head is “Awesome God” by Rich Mullins?

  47. Francoinblanco

    I feel a song comin now.
    Clap, snap, the black crack
    Grip, grab, pinch, and nab
    Batter and beat
    Make ‘em stammer and squeak!
    Pound pound, far underground
    Down, down, down in Goblin Town

  48. Endplanets

    Kicking people out for a chat is funny.

    1. milu

      i mean, even if they were only planning on having a chat, it does sometimes make sense to want to be alone for it?

  49. Mr. Random

    My common area had tiny green spiders!

    They were adorable in their ubiquity.

    1. AGV

      Actually enviable

    2. milu

      that does sound rad but surely you can see that to your average arachnophobe, “ubiquity” does not increase adorableness.

      1. Thag Simmons

        I assume they’re talking about Jumping Spiders, which are very small and very cute

        1. thejeff

          Which still doesn’t help most arachnophobes.

        2. Imogen

          Their eyes scare the crap out of me. Plus, their movement is unpredictable. No thanks.

  50. Ray Radlein

    This is a flawless plan which certainly cannot possibly fail

    1. Seregiel

      Excellent Smithers!

  51. StClair

    Let’s hear it for Joe, providing today’s demonstration of why this comic is called what it is!

    1. Thag Simmons

      Because he’s being very smart and making good choices?

      1. milu

        oh i assume you’re looking for this other comic, https://www.collegekidsbeingsmartandmakinggoodchoicesallthetime.com

        its comment section is all about how badly things might have gone if the characters had been even slightly immature and insecure, but thankfully that’s not the case, phew

        1. Jamie

          I was genuinely hoping that link would work.

  52. V

    Hm, I wonder when/if Danny is going to figure who the other innocent, ex-Christian Joe’s talking about is. Then again, Danny is the guy who couldn’t figure out Amber was Amazi-Girl and maybe knows Joyce the least well out of the main cast. Regardless, I can’t wait for this whole drama bomb to go off!

    1. Nono

      I mean, Sal had Catholic school uniforms.

    2. thejeff

      At least at this point, Danny’s got no reason to think Joyce is ex-Christian. That’ll probably get more widely known pretty quickly though.

      And obligatory: Everyone else (other than Dina) also didn’t figure out Amber was Amazi-Girl without pretty specific clues, so it’s not really fair to use that against Danny.

  53. Needfuldoer

    Goddammit, Malaya Joe…

  54. Spencer

    I haven’t seen a character make a decision this emotionally devastating to themself since the Sexy Lesbian Suicide Pact.

    1. Clif

      But that actually worked out pretty well, until it didn’t.

      1. Spencer

        Yeah thanks to Carla.

        And Rachel.

        … Mary helped more than Billie tbh. I know she made it worse but she sucked at blackmailing so hard her intended victim got to keep her job and girlfriend while getting medicated.

  55. RacingTurtle

    I really hope Joe opens the door to find Liz gone, for his sake. I’m not too worried about Liz; there are worse guys to pick for your youthful Bad Idea Fling, and I doubt she becomes too attached. Joe, however, is about to totally self-destruct if Fate doesn’t step in

    1. justin8448

      I think Joe will survive. But it’s not looking like a great night for either of them.

    2. Holly

      I’m wondering how long it will take Joyce to storm away from her argument with Sarah and show up at Joe’s door.

      1. mrnoidea

        THIS

  56. Florence

    Joes inability to just say no to sex is so sad, grasping for any opportunity to prove he hasn’t changed. Still 50/50 if he actually goes through with it, cause he’s barely justifying what is a simple “I want to have sex” or “I don’t want to have sex” situation

  57. y3k

    At long last fed up with everyone else’s bad choices ruining his day, Joe decides to reciprocate.

  58. Opus the Poet

    Incoming Slipshine with Liz and Joe.

  59. acher4

    Palpatine : dew it

  60. Rabisch

    I hope Danny goes to visit Sal and not in the common area. Interesting how Joe is describing Liz and how similar that description is to Joyce. He wants to be free… free of what, Joe? Joe will fail miserably to be free and end up even more sad and with a chance that Sarah and Joyce will find out.

  61. milu

    wait, but what’s the song then?

    1. Council

      It’s a metaphor for Joyce. Joyce is stuck in his head.

      1. Delicious Taffy

        It’s like his iPod’s stuck on replay.

        1. milu

          oh ok wait that makes sense i guess ^^

          for a minute i thought there was a song out there about an attractive willful ex-christian weirdo looking for a brush with sin

          which sounds like a banger

        2. Yotomoe

          Yeah, that Shorty’s like a melody in his head.

    2. Spencer

      The Sound of Music.

      1. JBento

        No whiskers on kittens here, but probably hair on a pussy?

  62. Sombrero

    Good talking partners are those who listen. Dan is even better: he just listens.

  63. Mr.Morningstar

    Is…. is Joe okay?

    1. Eldritchy

      I guess he is going through an existential crisis… would be funny to see him go to Joyce with it.

      1. Zaxares

        I actually think this is Joe mentally going “Why the hell am I so attracted to Joyce?” and unfortunately, he’s now latched on to the idea that Liz is an archetype stand-in for the “sweet innocent Christian girl” who’s looking for a brush with sin, and that by sleeping with Liz, he’ll satisfy the “craving” and thus be free of his attraction.

        It’s obviously not going to work, of course. If his feelings are genuine, a simple dalliance won’t remove them. If they aren’t, and it’s some new fetish, then indulging it is only going to make it stronger. You can trust me on that, Joe. 😉

        I suppose the one positive from all of this is that Liz is clearly consenting, and Joe is “willing”, as he puts it, so as far as I’m concerned, the two of them can go ahead and have a good time.

        1. Plain Marie

          It’s also possible he will get into it and realize he can’t continue with Liz because of his feelings for Joyce. Not that I have any personal experience of such a scenario. *ahem*

  64. Chris (the other one)

    I’m betting (hoping?) she’s not at the door anymore. However, Fuck you Willis says she will be, they’ll bop, bounce, or whatever else you want to call it, and then: DRAMA! will ensue

    1. Jamie

      They will boing.

  65. DarkoNeko

    “what, no hanging a webcam on my foot this time ?”

  66. Bobcat

    No Joe, you won’t take Joyce out of your system so easily.

  67. Keulen

    For a moment there I thought Joe might turn Liz down.

  68. milu

    Dumbing Of Age Book 12: An Attractive Willful Ex-Christian Innocent With Like 30 Hangups Looking Stupidly To Me For Her First Freshman Year Brush With Sin

    1. Spencer

      … you know, the part about “looking stupidly to me for her first freshman year brush with sin” got me thinking. If Joyce went up to Joe and said “hey, let’s have sex”, would Joe view it as Joyce using to him to get what she wants?

      I think that’s how Joe’s processed sex, just a mechanical transaction between two piles of meat, but he knows Joyce thinks the polar opposite: Sex is this innately impure thing that she can only have in one specific circumstance. Sex is important to the both of them in a way that the other would view it as meaningless.

      Is Joe thinking like this, where if Joyce deprogrammed her fundie upbringing enough that she’d eventually be comfortable having sex, and she chose to do it with him (which, if Joyce ever got in the headspace where she could have sex with a friend without a whole committed romantic relationship, does actually strike me as a pretty sensible choice on her part. She trusts him, she knows he’s good at sex things, she has observed his dump track ass), that she’d immediately grow tired of him now that she got what she wanted?

      Does Joe think that’s the only value he has to anyone, even Joyce? Does he think Joyce wanting sex from him is the moment that she just bails from his life forever?

      1. Kim

        Interesting!

        1. Spencer

          It reminds me of this romcom I saw a million years ago. I think it was called Good Luck Chuck or something? I think it was supposed to be a bad movie, but I thought the premise was interesting.

          Male lead’s the romcom horndog protagonist, except when he was in high school playing spin the bottle the goth girl placed a magical curse on him that every woman he’d ever be with would find someone else (the movie’s kind of coy about it being fake or real), so he becomes Hot Shot McSex Guy who has a reputation where every woman he sleeps with goes off and finds The One. It’s been forever since I saw it (I swear this movie came out in like 2005) but he’s not a total dick about it, like his secretary propositions him because she feels unattractive and unwanted being a larger woman and his Magic Date Powers will find her a husband, and he goes through with it but tries to reaffirm that it’s not some business transaction for him and he’s completely comfortable having sex with her.

          Shortly thereafter he comes across The One, and suddenly he’s terrified because he’s actually into her, but the moment he makes a move she’ll be gone, so he engages in all the romcom hijinks that are supposed to be charming and prove the guy loves the girl, except she’s visibly weirded out and treats him like a creepy fucker and bails, so he goes to see the goth girl from high school and begs her to remove the magical curse and she just kinda laughs like “are you serious?” and he leaves, before she finds the voodoo doll and kinda jokingly “removes the curse.”

          I saw this movie one time over a decade ago, this is the first time I’ve thought about it since and it was probably bad, but kinda struck me a funny read on how genuinely damaging it is for guys where we pursue sex as mindless indulgence since we’re constantly reinforced we should want it all the time, and once we get hit with some emotional weight how desperate we are to hold onto it.

      2. milu

        i have a hard time imagining Joyce being up for casual sex in the near future, honestly. i’m sure she’ll get there but it feels pretty far off as yet.

        i say it’s more likely Joe’s attitude to sex and feelings evolves first, and he decides that he really just wants to be with Joyce and gets to work seducing her.

        or, you know, they both stay in denial about the sexual tension between them and let the pressure build up until they just fall into each other’s laps at some extremely dramatic and ill-timed moment, confusion rules, words are uttered, feelings are hurt, way more problems are created than resolved, damnation is wished upon willis, etc.

        1. Spencer

          Nah that was a hypothetical. Basically, if Joyce was where Liz is right now, I think Joe would process it as “Joyce will fuck me, and then she won’t have any use for me anymore.” I think he’s saying that if Joyce proposed the idea, and had changed her mind about sex enough that she would, Joe would view himself as just something Joyce is using to get what she actually wants, because “getting what we each want” is how he’s always processed sex.

          As for Joe actively seducing Joyce, well, I can’t see that happening. Joe is nowhere near healthy enough to try and seduce someone he has an emotional connection with, certainly not when that emotional connection is something he desperately wants and is viscerally terrified of, so hes keeping her at arm’s length while he remains Shallow Friend, let alone however Joe’s opinion of himself as someone who reinforced Joyce’s trauma without even realizing.

  69. Ranadiel

    Joe saying “never happened” in panel three made my brain go to the consequences to this being a pregnancy, a pregnancy scare, or Liz pretending to be pregnant to get Joe to stay with her because she changes her mind on the whole “free love” thing and goes back to the idea of mating for life.

    I don’t know if that is somewhere Willis would want to go, but Joe will probably be better off if this ends in tears before completion than if he reaches the climax.

    1. milu

      i think Joe canonically does not fuck around when it comes to protection, so that hardly seems likely

      1. Ranadiel

        I believe that has been established, but no birth control method is 100% effective.

        And considering her lack of sexual knowledge and propensity for causing drama, I could see Liz showing up in a few months time freaking out over being pregnant even in a scenario where it is 100% impossible because Joe nopes out before the main event starts.

        1. JBento

          In three months, Liz will ride a rollercoaster, vomit from the motion sickness, and go “Oh no, I’m pregnant!”

    2. Yotomoe

      Man that would be terrible for Joe and Liz to deal with at such a young age but like…also I feel like they’d make really cute babies so…I’m conflicted.

  70. Thag Simmons

    I see we’re making good choices today

    1. JBento

      Every day ends in “y” exactly because all these people make us go “WHYYYYY?” every day.

  71. C.T. Phipps

    Ah, Danny, the judgement. Oh the judgement.

  72. Deanatay

    “I can use it to get this out of my system.”

    By ‘this’, he means ‘Joyce’.

    1. Yotomoe

      And here I thought he meant semen.

  73. Alex

    I reeeeeeeeally thought he was smarter than this.

  74. Fnord

    Joe? I wouldn’t be so sure this is her FIRST freshman year brush with sin.
    Also, I’m expecting Liz to say something like “No, Danny, come back here and tape this to your foot.”

    1. Yotomoe

      Danny come back and join us. Threesomes are even MORE tabboo!

  75. Vulcanodon

    “Greetings passengers: the Joe-Joyce ship departure will be delayed indefinitely due to rough waters on the intended course…”

  76. Kravis

    Or, if both parts are up for it, you can tape “the act” again, this time willingly!

  77. Juanoku

    GODDAMMIT WE WERE SO CLOSE

  78. Caninse

    Now, my question is will he be able to get it up. Considering he’s having so many questions, it’s possible his penis will be like “this is a mistake” and refuse despite his brain seeing a sexy girl and thinking this will get it out of his system.

  79. TheMirai

    I love that he’s saying “getting it out of my system” and “I’ll be free” and there’s just this thing he isn’t saying and it’s like, get *what* out of your system Joe, be free of *what* exactly

  80. Buli-Buli

    This is why my freshman roommate agreement specified a 24 hour warning.

  81. nicoleandmaggie

    Not the worst thing Joe could do, but I would like to point out that she already SAID she was going home but then turned up again unexpectedly. Plus she seems to be an agent of chaos. But hey, college is about learning. #drama Now it’s just a question of if this all explodes before or after a slipshine or if nothing explodes but it adds to the long-term Joe/Joyce simmering because it turns out that Liz is not the Yellow Submarine to Joyce’s Song that Doesn’t End.

    1. Spencer

      Well, we don’t know the exact passage of time from Liz trying to leave before getting trapped in the Sarah Hug to popping up here. She said she missed her bus, at least.

  82. Adept

    Solid reasoning Joe 😀

    There’s no way this could blow up in his face, right?

  83. nothri

    Joe, no offense, but I feel like this plan has a greater than zero chance of Sarah pulling a Lorena Bobbitt on your junk for boinking her sister…on top of all the other reasons this probably is not a good idea!

  84. Imogen

    So, um, this is unrelated to today’s strip, but it’s something that just hit me.

    Does Dorothy actually *like* Joyce?

    Like, we know Joyce likes Dorothy. Joyce loves Dorothy. Joyce is in love with Dorothy. Joyce thinks Dorothy is super cool, let her count the ways.

    But I was just thinking about Dorothy withholding her acceptance into Harvard from Joyce, seemingly not ready to tell anyone about her amazing success. And it hit me: I am assuming, 100%, that this is simply because she is afraid of upsetting Joyce. Maybe there’s a tiny chance that she’s sad to leave Walky? Or that she’s afraid of success? There are a few options, honestly.

    But it never even occurred to me that the reason would be that Dorothy doesn’t want to leave Joyce behind. Because honestly, I just don’t buy that.

    Dorothy and Joyce have a weird relationship. Dorothy clearly enjoys Joyce’s company, but because Dorothy is so distant from her relationships in many regards, and because she is almost always portrayed as the Moral Backbone of the comic, her dynamic with Joyce often feels more like “character development coach” than actual friend. Dorothy wants Joyce to be a better person, sure. I buy that. But I’m not sure I buy that Dorothy would really consider Joyce her best friend, or even a close friend. It’s almost paternalistic.

    Dorothy doesn’t seek Joyce out to talk about interests. Dorothy doesn’t learn to be a better person from Joyce. Dorothy doesn’t learn lessons from Joyce. I’m not even sure Dorothy confides in Joyce that often. Dorothy doesn’t seem to need anyone, really, except maybe Walky. Her friendships are just… there. It’s not just that she takes them for granted or whatever. It’s that aside from mildly enjoying Joyce’s company, and feeling obligated to help Joyce grow as a person, I can’t really see Dorothy pining after Joyce. Even if Dorothy was bisexual, I don’t see her wanting to date Joyce at all at this time.

    I like Joyce and Dorothy being friends. Joyce’s side of it is really sweet. I just feel like we’ve really missed a lot of Dorothy’s side that isn’t just being Joyce’s court-appointed Guardian Shoulder Angel. I’d love to see more of their relationship from Dorothy’s side, just like I’d love to see Dorothy explored with a bit more nuance than “amazing always-right lecturer whose only weaknesses are Being a Nerd and Sometimes Allowing Herself to Have Fun”. She’s been a bit bland lately.

    1. Alex

      Does Dorothy care about Joyce as a friend? Yes. Does she view Joyce as an equal? Hell no.

    2. Spencer

      I actually do think of Dorothy and Joyce’s relationship like this, but more that Dorothy does actually like Joyce, she just doesn’t realize how much of a total nanny she is to her and most of her friends. She always approaches them with trying to fix them, trying to make them be better so they can be “the person I know you are, who’s better than this.”

      And that was pretty easy, because Joyce is Joyce. She did need someone to gently guide her, but Joyce isn’t that same person anymore, and in a way Dorothy has only had two panels in the immediate moment to disapprove of.

      Dorothy likes Joyce, but I don’t think she actually respect her.

      1. Spencer

        Oh as for why Dorothy hasn’t revealed her acceptance letter to Yale: it’s tough! The second she says it, all of her friends know that she’s on a timer, and it changes things from knowing that countdown existed to feeling it every day for the rest of the semester.

        But yeah I agree with your criticisms, she’s a pretty bland character, and this whole thing with Becky and Joyce falling out and Sarah getting real crotchety about it makes me think Joyce’s immediate friend group is gonna start going through some character dynamic shifts.

        1. Imogen

          Thank you both for engaging so constructively! I don’t want to even come off as anti-Dorothy here. I’ve enjoyed her in sections, particularly when Roz was allowed to serve as a plausible foil to Dorothy or when she started failing classes. I thought her grade slump would be a chance for her to finally be forced to confront (or deny) the limits of her workaholism. Instead, she dumped Walky and locked herself in a room for a few weeks to “double down”, which is a really harmful mindset that people with ADHD struggle with a lot (“if I just stop taking care of myself and work EXTRA hard for a bit, I’ll catch up and be fine!”),

          And yeah, Joyce isn’t really allowed to be an equal to Dorothy, and that’s a shame, because especially now that Joyce is a lot less of a conservative wingnut, it’s… a little depressing to see them remain in such an unbalanced friendship.

          Dorothy has plenty of flaws, just like Joyce. The narrative just refuses to acknowledge them.

        2. Spencer

          Well, not yet, anyways. She’s always been around screwballs who needed a patient straight man to throw exasperated eye rolls.

          But now her comedy foil is growing up.

        3. Imogen

          I hope so! It kind of seems like Dorothy’s still in the same roll–except now she’s not even comedy foil, she’s just here to lecture Amazing Atheist Joyce about doing atheism wrong. I don’t hate that idea at all, but I do dislike that it’s all we ever see of these two: Joyce is dumb about something and Dorothy patiently tries to educate her.

        4. Spencer

          Well, here’s how I see it in relation to other Momothy moments: this whole thing is effed up, but Dorothy’s using the same protocols for Silly Fundie Joyce.

          Joyce misses a class for the first time ever, which motivates Dorothy to join Becky in cyberstalking Joyce (also the other reason of getting away from Walky and Lucy), and then upon finding Joyce, Dorothy goes full on “I know you’re better than this” in a scenario where Dorothy doesn’t have all the information. Joyce said something and Becky’s sad about it, so Joyce has disappointed Dorothy far beyond being a School Misser, and she has to go fix it because Dorothy knows she’s better than this. No empathy, no understanding, not even the slightest questioning as to what could motivate Joyce into saying Fuck Jesus, it’s right into the lecture.

          And that strikes me as really important where Becky and Sarah, Joyce’s two other closest friends, have, respectively, shown themselves completely incapable of understanding Joyce’s relationship with her religion and browbeating her for acting out because she’s supposed to be nice all the time.

          I found this strip archive diving a couple days ago, and I think it’s deeply relevant to what Joyce is going through.

          https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-9-comic/02-but-the-sun-still-shines/stings/

        5. MrSmith

          All which also goes to show just how important Joe is to Joyce in that she can confide in him more than the others

          Also how important Joyce is to Joe

        6. Imogen

          Also, I think Sarah and Joyce are gonna last–a sisterly bond is generally more resilient to falling-outs than friendship can be. I would not mind seeing Becky and Joyce “break up”, though. Becky has gotten a lot of screentime lately, and it’s kind of been at other formerly major characters’ expense. I don’t really enjoy Becky’s interactions with Joyce at this point, and her affection for Joyce seems to be getting really conditional. Also I don’t really like her anymore sorry Becky.

          Becky’s become kind of like a combination of Carla’s and Roz’s most compelling traits, but expressed in such a way that we’re clearly always supposed to see Becky as being in the right. She’s brash and attention-seeking, but isn’t cartoony or self-aware about it like Carla is. She’s opinionated and sometimes outright rude, but the narrative doesn’t critique her for it like it does Roz. Her humor-deflection and relationship insecurities sort of remind me of Walky, but less subtle, with an uncomfortable dollop of “allosexual problems” dropped on top.

          Becky feels like she just sort of gums stories up with her presence. Joyce is struggling with her new atheism, and she’s switching to being very anti-religion. This could be fun to explore! She could be forced to realize that this negativity just doesn’t make her happy, or that her “anti-religion” stance is pretty Christian-centric and forgets that tons of other religions exist with totally different ideologies. Maybe she’d get a chance to talk faith with Joe, or Jacob, or Ethan, or Jocelyn, even Roz. But instead we are forced to stage a blow-up and center the hurt feelings of some Christian girl, and there’s this whole other issue about Joyce lying to her, and… look, it’s all gummed up. Becky getting offended at Joyce lying about being an atheist is not a strong thread for this arc to follow.

        7. Spencer

          An important thing about Becky and Joyce that really only got understood this chapter is that they’re deeply loving and affectionate, but it’s been massively codependent and we never really saw it until now.

          Becky going “Joyce can’t have a Cool Christian Friend, that’s my job!” and then cyberstalking her, that’s not only exactly along the lines of how Becky has acted in the past, it’s behaviour Joyce has constantly praised and vindicated in Becky because Joyce can’t imagine a scenario where Becky wouldn’t be invited. She finally had one, and the script played out exactly the same to terrible consequence for the first time.

          Plus, Joyce’s dissolution of her faith was going kinda smoothly, just at a glacial pace. She was a monkey, she had that part jotted down, and she could probably get the other relevant stuff filled in with time, but it’s a character series about painful conversations that kinda needed some honking big drama.

          I don’t think this chapter is at all indicative that we’re in for “the story of how Joyce learns to be a good atheist and not shitty”, I don’t think Becky getting mad at Joyce is the actual meat of the story; it’s everything else that’s important beyond the immediate moment.

        8. MrSmith

          Thank you for verbalising this

        9. Jamie

          Huh. That makes me wonder when Becky will go through Dorothy’s stuff and find the acceptance letter.

    3. Luna

      I’ve been working my way through a reread, and it’s definitely easier to see in earlier arcs that there are things about Joyce that Dorothy sincerely admires and thinks highly of. Joyce standing up to her parents on Dorothy’s behalf during Family Weekend was very meaningful to her, especially since it’s implied that Dorothy faced a lot of blow-back for her atheism in high school. And she’s mentioned a few times that she values Joyce’s bravery and the lengths she’s willing to go to for those she loves.

      So I do think Dorothy considers Joyce someone important to her – probably more so than she ever expected from a couple months of friendship – and the imbalance between them is more an unfortunate matter of circumstance. Like you said, Dorothy keeps all her relationships at arm’s length because she’s planning to leave as soon as possible, and Joyce isn’t an exception. When Dorothy does have problems, she can’t go to Joyce for help, because they’re either in an area Joyce has no experience in (like dating) or Joyce has her own bigger crisis going on that takes priority. And because Joyce has been going through constant crises for months and Dorothy is naturally responsible, she usually winds up ‘mothering/coaching’ her rather than having more lighthearted interactions.

      That said, I do hope we get to see them develop a more equal friendship before Dorothy leaves now that things have calmed down some. But I don’t think the fact that they aren’t at that point right now is necessarily because Dorothy doesn’t like her enough, basically.

      1. Imogen

        I kind of agree, but I feel like the fact that Dorothy is basically depicted as smarter and wiser than Joyce in every way is part of the problem. The closest Dorothy gets to being vulnerable with Joyce is when she’s overworking herself and Joyce tries to get her to slow down and take more breaks (but the narrative frames Dorothy as being in the right on that) and when Dorothy is interested in Walky and trying to repress it (but Joyce opposes their coupling out of jealousy/distaste for Walky/mainly jealousy, so she’s not actually able to point out to Dorothy that Sweetie You’re Not A Productivity Machine Just Do Something That Makes You Happy For Its Own Sake For Once).

        Basically, I think their friendship suffers because the comic feels… really weirdly reluctant to let Dorothy be actively wrong about something these days.

    4. V

      I think that part of it is that Walky was always shown as the person with whom Dorothy lets her hair down and have fun, so it doesn’t narratively make a ton of sense for Joyce to also fill that role. But also like… what DO they do together?

      1. Imogen

        It’s kind of ironic that the narrative gives big “the author is afraid to be un-feminist by suggesting that the Career Girl should give up her dreams for a guy” vibes but the focus on her rejecting the Temptation of Walky kind of comes at the expense of her main female friendship.

        They hang out, they enjoy each other okay, but what does Joyce do for Dorothy? Does Joyce have any qualities Dorothy herself is deficit in? Dorothy never backs down from standing up for others, she’s not overly acerbic or cynical… We know why Joyce loves Dorothy, but why does Dorothy love Joyce? Joyce and Sarah are sweet together because yes, Joyce benefits from Sarah’s realism, but Sarah also benefits from Joyce’s idealism. They make each other better people. I don’t see that in Joyce and Dorothy, because Dorothy is never challenged by Joyce in any way.

        I really would love to ship them, but honestly, I’d buy Roz/Dorothy or Roz/Joyce first. At least those pairings have each member actually bringing something to the table.

    5. nicoleandmaggie

      I super identify as Dorothy. When I was in high school and college and graduate school, people who *wanted* to be fixed kind of glommed onto me. I grew up taught to be helpful and I had all sorts of unequal relationships in college and graduate school. (My high school relationships were much more equal because we were all messed up!) Generally these friends would take and take and I would help and help and then at some point they’d feel like they didn’t need me anymore and I would seem suffocating and they’d drop me and I would feel terrible. (I also had normal friends and healthy relationships! But a particular kind of person became very close.)

      Were they my friends? I thought so! I thought I was helping my friends. I thought I liked them. Was I pushing myself on them? Not at first–they were always asking (people came to me to get things fixed, not for sympathy) but at some point they would think I was, usually when I thought they had everything together and they didn’t need me anymore. (And then like years/decades later I’d get a bizarre apology email for dropping me so precipitiously!)

      It wasn’t until I had kids of my own that I learned to have an arms-length polite relationship with the Joyce’s of the world. I just do not have the emotional energy for them anymore and I’ve learned to be politely disinterested. Here’s me realizing what happened back in 2014: https://nicoleandmaggie.wordpress.com/2014/10/29/i-used-to-like-people-more/

      1. Sam

        That actually explains a lot about some of my friendships and how the attachment got strong really fast but then would also die off when their circumstances changed or improved.

    6. MrSmith

      Good points

  85. C.T. Phipps

    Getting Joyce out of his system by boinking Sarah’s sister is actually the grossest thing Joe has ever done.

    That’s impressive.

    1. Spencer

      Not the part where he handed out a list of numeric ranking of the women around him that had their names, locations, and commentary on how best to fuck them?

      That was so deeply triggering to Joyce in realizing how even her friends can engage in the same thought processes that lead to shitheads like Ryan, which horrified Joe so much that he immediately slammed the brakes on every part of his persona he crafted thinking it was the best possible thing he could be?

      1. JBento

        Yeah, but here he’ll be having *gasp* consensual sex, and isn’t that so much worse than considering women’s primary value to be sexual, and then officially ranking that value?

        1. C.T. Phipps

          Using a teenage girl as a substitute for your sexual urges for another teenage girl that you supposedly like? Yes, kind of.

          It’s gross and misogynist on a deeply personal level.

        2. alongcameaspider

          Using an adult who is also consenting to the sex for her own reasons

          Don’t make it sound worse then it is by implying Liz is a child

        3. Lexi

          They’re the same age! Within a year and a half of each other, that was established from the get go. If she’s a teenage girl, he’s a teenage boy, or close enough that it’s all semantics.

        4. Yotomoe

          I really don’t like the use of teenage here. Like it’s actually a very manipulative way to form your argument. Joe is the same age as both of these women, but when you say “teenage” it sorta implies he’s not? And I’m struggling to give you the benefit of the doubt for that because there doesn’t seem to be any other reason for you to use the phrase “teenage” other than to affect our opinion from a moral standpoint.

        5. JBento

          Dude, just admit you think people having casual sex is badwrongfun. You’d still suck, but at least you’d be honest.

        6. C.T. Phipps

          Why would I think sex is badwrongfun? Everyone should have it when they feel comfortable and care for their partner. At least on a basic human level. Joe is clearly uncomfortable and using it as a way to try to get over his feelings for Joyce, which is…gross and nasty. Its also demeaning to both his partner and Joyce.

        7. zee

          Don’t say “teenage girl” like Joe isn’t also a teenager .-.

      2. C.T. Phipps

        Yes, it is grosser than the Do List and that was very gross.

        1. Spencer

          Having sex in a desperate and wrongheaded attempt to process confused feelings

          or

          Objectifying every single woman around you constantly, viewing them all as potential lays, jotting down notes for how to get into their pants, handing this out to anyone who asks, and all in the name of being an incredibly socially conscious and honest person up until the point where a friend of yours tells you in no uncertain terms that you solidified how utterly nightmarish the casual and entrenched objectification of women is and how even nominally good people willfully and happily engage with it.

          theyrethesamepicture.jpg

        2. zee

          Was waiting for Phipps to go back to his usual MO of wack ass takes

        3. C.T. Phipps

          I still support Walky and Jason!

  86. ADLegend21

    And now for something to get in the way and it not to happen anyway

    1. J. Gawain

      I’ll put 3 monopoly moneys down on Joe walking out to find Mary confronting Liz about what she overheard.

      1. Roborat

        I think Liz will chicken out, and Joe will open the door to Joyce standing there.

  87. Twig the Troll

    Nooooooo. Dude no.
    Here’s hoping he backs out at the last minute.

    1. Endplanets

      I will find this funny if all he wants to do is talk. And he backs out of talking.

  88. mrnoidea

    Alright, I’m back from a road trip, what I miss—

    Oh.

    *sigh* Joe, I know there’s a lot to learn, but don’t ask yourself “Can I get away with this?”

    Something tells me it always comes back to bite you.

  89. Diana Nock

    Okay, I’m gonna make a series of predictions about the situation Joe’s putting himself in that will probably get blown out of the water in a day or two:

    1. Joe will sleep with Liz. Despite his own conflicted feelings, he’ll show her a good time. She’ll go back to BSU very pleased.

    2. Joe will feel bad the next day, uncomfortable in a way he can’t put his finger on. When he meets up with Joyce for their next class or whatever, he’ll be just as in love with her as he was before, despite all his rationalizations. Once he recognizes his feelings for her as genuine romantic interest, he’ll also recognize the funk he’s in as guilt and shame.

    3. Joe will feel assaulted by his own emotions. First off, he’ll be angry at himself for feeling bad. Technically he hasn’t done anything wrong! Liz seemed happy, and he’s not dating Joyce. She’s not even interested in him that way, as far as he can tell. But irrational as it is, he’ll still feel like he’s done something wrong. On top of the anger, he’ll panic. Fear and confusion will curdle into a deep dread once he admits to himself it’s Joyce in particular he’s attracted to, instead of just her “type”. Finally, his feelings for her will absolutely knock him on his ass. The floodgates of Twue Wuv will open, and he will drown. And the worst part is, he won’t feel like he can talk to anyone about it, making him absolutely miserable.

    4. Joe will act weird around Joyce, almost reflexively. Since they’re Biology Lab partners, he can’t totally avoid her, but their banter and casual comfort in each others’ company will be gone. I give this about a week, as he renegotiates with himself. By the end of the week, Joyce will be convinced that he’s also judging her for her Baby Atheist attitude problems. She’ll confront him, and they’ll reconcile as true friends once he assures her he doesn’t think badly of her at all. He’s just been having a bad week, like her. They’ll feel free to hang out, watch cartoons, play games, and commiserate. While he won’t give his feelings for her away, just talking to her and feeling that emotional connection will be a TREMENDOUS relief. He’ll start to believe that maybe he can figure this out.

    5. Then when the next weekend rolls around, Liz will show up again for round two. When he seems less willing this time, she’ll use Sarah as leverage, either implicitly or explicitly threatening to run crying to her big sister if he rejects her. While his heart belongs to Joyce, he actually does like Liz. She’s cute and fun. He doesn’t want to hurt her feelings, and he definitely doesn’t want Sarah to know what they’ve done. So he goes along with it, rationalizing his actions every step of the way.

    6. Joe’s life will take on a new pattern. Sexy fun-times with Liz on the weekends, kept separate from his “real life”, when he goes to class and spends more and more time with Joyce. It might take a while for her and Becky to fully make up, and Joe will feel like the only friend she can be herself around without being judged. On Joe’s end, he’ll get a bit lonely with Danny being so preoccupied with Sal. His other guy friend, Jacob, is more of a gym buddy, so Joyce will naturally pick up Danny’s slack. Before they know it, Joe and Joyce will be practically attached at the hip.

    7. Partitioned off from everything else, Joe’s time with Liz will be simultaneously very physically pleasurable and emotionally devastating. His heartache will only deepen as he tries to keep body and mind separate. He’ll also get more fond of Liz, despite himself, and start to see himself as being bad for her, but whenever he hints that she should move on, she’ll cling to him even harder. While Liz won’t fall in love with Joe or anything, she’ll get very attached to him. She’ll be too nervous about putting herself out there to try finding sex and/or romance at BSU. Joe’s just the right combination of naughty and familiar to keep her satisfied. (She also finds the sneaking around to be pretty hot.) Consciously or not, she’ll start thinking of him as her secret boyfriend.

    8. As they get closer, Joyce will fall for Joe. He’ll deny all the clues at first, until it’s so blatant that he can’t anymore. Instead of being happy that his love for her is reciprocated, he’ll have a private meltdown like this is the worst thing that’s ever happened to him.

    9. Not insignificantly, Joe will also get closer to Sarah. Some of it’s because she’ll finally recognize he’s turned over a new leaf, and some will be Joyce’s own affection picked up through osmosis. They may never be friends, but she’ll warm up to him enough that she’s no longer hostile, at least.

    10. As he continues to see Liz, Joe will feel more and more like a piece of crap in the guise of a man. By now, it’ll be clear that the situation is unsustainable. Sooner or later, he’ll hurt all three women. With no idea how to avert this disaster, he’ll resign himself to it. He’ll try to check out mentally to save himself some pain, but Joyce won’t let him. In her concern for him, she’ll demonstrate her feelings, and Joe will turn her down. He’ll try to be gentle about it, but it might go badly.

    11. Just when Joe’s sure he’s under so much stress he’s heading for a stroke, Joyce will catch him and Liz together. Depending on how much she likes/loves him at this point, one of two things will happen. She’ll either insist she’s also ready for a casual fling with him, or she’ll be totally heartbroken.

    12. Everything will explode spectacularly, like fireworks. Maybe the Korean Mafia is involved somehow. I dunno.

    13. Yadda, yadda, yadda, Joe and Joyce will get married and bone happily ever after.

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