Mostly at Catholic services… Joyce isn’t Catholic. Isn’t she some evangelical offshoot or Baptist or something? I guess I don’t know much about Baptists…
Joyce’s parents might be hardcore Baptists, though I think her dad might be a little more than her mom is. The Baptist denomination has gotten pretty legalistic in most churches which really doesn’t bide well with some members in the congregation. If I’m reading Joyce right, I’d say her mother and her brothers may be a little on the Independent Baptist/Non-Denominational side which is how my family is. In fact most of our original church became like that before/during the split of that church. The new guy made everything so legalistic and weird when he came in and weeded out those who didn’t agree with him. It was either follow him or you’re not a Christian which is completely UN-BIBLICAL where it clearly says follow Christ and not man.
Anyways, back to the point, Joyce is being a concerned Christian trying to reach out to the unsaved.
Also for those wondering about the whole wine-thing, wine is primarily only served at Catholic churches, yes, though I think even they go mostly grape juice nowadays. Most other denominations serve only grape juice for communion which is held quarterly or monthly depending on the church and is reserved as a special event and not every Sunday. And then of course the crackers for the bread.
lord of dance
… new guy?
also catholic churches still mostly use wine. i cant speak for all, but every church i’ve been to either does wine or nothing
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Nah, I’ve been on here almost a year now
Anyways, I’ve never been to a church that serves wine, haha! Makes me wonder how I’d do visiting a Catholic church. Never been to one. But guess that answers that
lord of dance
ah… i meant that as in “whos the ‘new guy’ that rocked the baptist church”
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Now I get what you’re saying haha! Yeah, he practically lied on multiple issues to get in the church, one was the music and the other was on what kind of material he taught and who he got it from (which was Bill Gothard who is very legalistic. Not to be confused with the hymn writer Bill Gaither) the church held two votes which shouldn’t have happened and later on that caused a split just after the 20th anniversary of the church too.
Kalan
“serves wine” isn’t exactly the right phrase for how it’s used. It’s more of an extremely minimal perfunctory sip, not really much more than wetting your lip. If anyone stumbles out of church, you can count on it being for some other reason (or at least from some other source).
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
But yeah, I’ve been on here almost a year now. I’ve even got an idea to combine one of my Ranger fanfics with this story arc.
Khrene Cleaver
I think he was meant moreso the the new guy in your church story. You said a new guy came in and didn’t introduce what position he had in the church or anyhting about him. I got the gist of what you meant though.
On another note, yeah churches are getting a lot more political.
When I went back home to Los Angeles a while back, my mother’s relatively new pasture got himself a section on the radio and he spread his negative viewpoints about teaching kids gay history. I was kinda shocked, I don’t like how a good chunk of the Black Community and our churches fight against the Gay Agenda, it ain’t quite the damn same as being Black but hell I think we’re missing the point is that people and events can be omitted from history simply because they revolve around homo-sexuality, like the fact that anal sex (sodomy) was illegal in the US till 1961, I never learned in high school. It’s not so much about the act of anal sex, it about the value behind making a consensual sex act illegal due to residual puritan values.
The irony of it all is that we strive as a people to be Black and different from our once oppressors, but we cling on to Christianity, but the reason why my parents and any other Black person with ancestry in the American slavery of Africans believe in Jesus Christ is because White people abducted our ancestors, separated them from their children, beat and raped the religion into the off spring of our forefathers.
There some good stuff in Christianity, really there is, but we just get so caught up in the Idol instead of the ideal. Its also like this in the bible I really want to read more, but the few passages I read, there was a pretty clear divergence between just being a good and loving person and in the next paragraph the tone would change any goos is redefined as being dressed in the robe of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Khrene Cleaver
Man I wish I was back on my friends computer cause I had this cute Roz avatar that would went so well with that comment.
Look above that reply, thats also me. My comps been out of commission, and I’ve been borrowing my roommates old laptop. I finally got my comp fixed.
Khrene Cleaver
Yah know its weird that my two avatars had sex… and on camera none the less…
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
I’m just going to say that most churches are still against gay marriage including mine. But we are only against the action and not the people. We believe that the action is a sin and should not be allowed within the church. It’s spoken against in the Bible and even described as a disgusting, perverse change that people start to lust after each other. That’s all I’m going to say right now since I’m not well equipped to make an argument about it right now.
begbert2
I’ve heard that most or all of the bits against it in the bible are either mistranslations or not very clear in what they’re talking about, to the point that the notion that they’re about gay sex at all (as opposed to, say, BDSM or something like that) is simply wild speculation. (Albeit wild speculation thought up generations ago and since codified through repetition.) If one does plain reads of the text and does further research, the ‘evidence’ either evaporates or at least becomes considerably more slippery.
(I’m not really the best guy to argue this either, so I’ll stop here.)
R
I was going to go on a rant, but I decided just to address this one point: If I were to say that I accept you, but I don’t accept your close relationship with your parents/sibling(s), how would that make you feel? (I can trot out bible verses too if you’d like)
I’m a lesbian and I’m married. Being married is a significant fact about myself, it’s not just some inane quirk like preference for drinking one cup of earl grey once a fortnight. It’s condescending and ignorant of Christians to say that they love me but they don’t approve of my relationship. Be honest- say that you hate me so much that you don’t think I deserve any sort of chance at familial happiness outside of my family of origin.
I’m not going to address your biblical points that you aren’t prepared to defend, you clearly aren’t very interested in them, and I find those parts of the bible dull at this point in my life.
Khrene Cleaver
@ R No way I would be able said it better myself.
But it sucks cause this kinda a bit of an anti-Christian circle jerk. And thats never right.
Even though there a lot of things that don’t sit well with me like the Bible’s limitless possibility of mistranslations and out right changes from the original text, Christianity’s cult like teachings, and the few but very loud ignorant followers, there still are some good values in it.
It may not be obvious through all the mess, but I think many followers of Christ, are like Joyce and at their core, they just want the same thing we and that most others want, to love and respect one another.
Now Imma end here.before this critique sandwhich becomes an open-faced double decker with chili and cheese on top.
David
Can we disagree on something without treating each other like dirt? R, you’re the only one who showed any prejudice there. Tim’s statement was respectful, and honestly, perfectly respectable. You came completely out of nowhere accusing him of hatred. It is not condescending for someone to disagree with you without disrespecting you.
Which is not to say I agree with him. I support LGBT very strongly, but that doesn’t mean I have to bite someone’s head off if they happen to think gay sex is wrong. (It simply isn’t the same thing as claiming superiority over or disrespecting someone for their sexual preferences.) So long as you treat people with respect, it doesn’t bother me that someone might believe homosexuality is wrong- even if I think the belief itself is more than a little silly.
I’m a Christian (non-denominational), and I usually consider myself a Conservative. I just happen to think there’s nothing wrong with homosexual relationships. To throw decent people who happen to disagree with you into a lump with bigots is nothing less than prejudice in its own right. You can debate the matter, and say you think their opinions are foolish and unfair, but that does not make them stupid and bigoted people.
I’m tired of LGBT advocates, as well as libertarians in general, who claim to fight for equality and rationality, and then go out of their way to perpetuate hatred. My opinions on religion and LGBT matters have been all over the place at different points in my life, but I’ve found that, no matter what you your position, there is someone there who agrees with you, and manages to unconsciously devote their every act of support to showing the worst of whatever it is you’re fighting for. Christians who cherry pick the teachings that are most convenient to them, to excuse their own actions, and people who bring the fight for equality full-circle back to prejudice.
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Thanks David for backing me here. I am in no way a right wing propagandist and definitely not a left wing by any stretch of course. I never said I hated anyone for what they do, to hate someone is wrong and ungodly. I do happen to have a few friends that say they are ‘gay’ and one of them actually got married not too long ago in the summer. I also worked with a guy at KFC a couple years ago whom is also ‘gay’, though that relationship was completely strange and really embarrassing to witness, lol! And he was one of my managers at the time!!!! I actually respected the guy and was somewhat friends with him for a while until he left and dropped off the map.
All in all I don’t think it’s right how people say to ‘tolerate’ other religions and practices, but at the same time if I or any other Christian speaks anything Christian based or disagrees with an issue, then we’re automatically bashed for intolerance. If there was a such thing as a hypocritical sinner, that would be an example. But Jesus did say that those who spoke in his name would be persecuted, whether minimally or being killed like what is going on in the middle east.
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Oh, and an answer to your post there begbert, it is true that there are some mistakes in the English translation, because so many English words have so many different meanings unlike the original texts from Latin, Greek and Hebrew. Unfortunately, it’s only been recently that’s been realized, but it’s not too late to correct them.
Hebrew was considered to be the perfect language from the time of Moses (Who wrote Genesis through Leviticus) and beyond and every letter had to be written correctly to a tee to make sure everything was followed and correct. Then when Greek came into the picture the texts were then translated into Greek since it was becoming one of the main languages back then and just in case multiple copies were made for it. It was also just as Latin was coming into play.
Also, Luke (who was a doctor in Jesus’ day and one of his disciples) did most of the writing for Paul’s journeys and his book. And remember, doctors HAVE to be precise. So by what is known as 100 A.D., all the original texts and most of the New Testament was translated into all of these three languages. It’s when the languages started splitting, things became confusing and the church knew they had to get texts translated into those different languages. So my multiple x7 (maybe) great grandfather, John Reynolds, translated the King James Version, the most known version and William Tindall Study Bible (Not very widely known and is one that my grandpa studies most often. He also studies the original texts, mostly Hebrew and Latin)
Well that’s all I got for now.
David
It’s only guessed that Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts. The two books were definitely written by the same author, but the identity of that author remains unknown. It’s only decided to be Luke by Church tradition. It’s most likely both of those books were written by somebody who never met Paul, long after his death, since details of Acts don’t line up with what Paul says about himself in the letters he wrote.
R
@Khrene Cleaver – I’m not anti-Christian. Christianity and homophobia are not synonyms, despite what anti-gay groups would have you believe. There are many Christian churches that are very supportive of gay rights, including marriage equality. I can generate a list if you’d like.
R
@David – I did not call him a bigot. His belief (which is not unique to him, I’ve heard it a lot before) is what is hateful, not him as a person. I don’t think he was aware of why it a hateful belief, so I thought it would be helpful to illustrate why. I was a conservative Catholic as a teenager, and a lot of the more intolerant beliefs I held were because I hadn’t been exposed to anything but straw-man arguments of other points of views and I had no idea how they affected actual people. From what he’s said, it sounds like he has very limited experience with gay people, so I think at least I’ve exposed him to the point of view of a married somewhat-older (~30) gay person who is addressing his actual argument. I had assumed he wanted to talk about it, as he brought up gay rights apropos of nothing in the comments of a gay-friendly comic.
For the sake of clarification: What level of support from others is required for my gratitude and silence about matters important to me? I’d like you to clarify what you require to not be offended, if that’s okay with you.
The fact that I’m married has allowed my wife to have access to quality life-saving medicine and treatment for conditions that would otherwise have put her in life-long debt at best and would have killed her at worst. Also marriage isn’t something we’re doing for show, we’re finally buying a house together this year and are planning on adopting a non-infant out of foster care as we want to give a happy home to a child in need. I can’t understand why you or anyone would be bothered that it offends me when people disrespect my family and see my marriage as some minor thing, especially when they don’t seem very interested in why they are doing so.
R
@ Tim – I don’t like it when anyone’s publicly inappropriately demonstrative with affection too. I don’t think about other people (gay or straight) having sex either. I think that’s very normal. 🙂
Also, I’m a history nut- medicine was much different back in the day than currently, I wouldn’t rely on the fact that Luke was a doctor, training requirements varied from medical school to virtually nothing depending on where he worked. That said, he was a wonderful historian, and he did a lot of great research when he authored his texts (Luke and Acts). The Gospel of Luke is my favorite actually.
David
I apologize if I misunderstood your intentions. “Be honest- say that you hate me so much that you don’t think I deserve any sort of chance at familial happiness outside of my family of origin,” was the phrase that made me twitchy.
ble.d_out.colo.r
While I don’t see Tim as being bigoted per se, it does make me cringe that he (I will assume that Tim is male) wrapped gay in quotations as if to say that we choose our sexuality. It is rather offensive to me, as I have never consciously made the choice to like other men, nor would i have if I had the choice to. That being said I am proud of who I am as part of the LGBT community. Also, one other thing that is cringeworthy is the use of “Gay Agenda” in Khrene’s post. Our only agenda is equality and respect. Anyone claiming otherwise is an extremist. The phrase “Gay Agenda” in itself is demonizing, and makes a statement sound bigoted even if, as in this case, it is not. So be careful when using this phrase because it can make people assume that you think gay people are terrorists pedophiles who are out to recruit your children….and the gay community generally doesn’t take well to that haha.
I respect the right to religion…but I have to say that I believe that the right to marry should be guaranteed as a human right in America, because America has seperation of church and state and because anything other than that would be a theocracy. Which we clearly are not. Anyone who uses their voting power to deny rights to LGBT people are allowing their beliefs to direct their power in a bigoted way. Which is why I don’t think people should vote with their religious views, and instead should vote in a strictly secular way, while still practicing their religious views during personal worship. Even if i personally disagree with something, I try to seperate my values from what is best for the country as a whole, and what gives equal, human rights to the country as a whole. Just my two cents.
David
I agree that, in any political or emotionally charged issue, one should be very cautious about any unintentional connotations in their wording. Especially when your actual intentions are causing enough tension already.
And, to be fair, there is a significant portion of the LGBT movement whose agenda also includes “demonize anyone who disagrees with us”. Every group has its crazies, you just have to remember that they almost never make up the foundation of the group.
The problem with your ideal of voting is that most people who hold moral values believe that if their values were held in law, it would be best for society. It isn’t theocracy for religion to have a certain amount of influence on the government- and, as the USA is a republican democracy with a very large percentage of Christians in its population, Christianity will continue to have influence.
Someone who believes homosexuality is immoral usually believes there’s more to it than just “the bible says so”- they also believe there’s some sort of detriment inherent in it, even if they only believe that as rationalization for the former belief. Try to see it from their perspective: they honestly believe that it would be for the good of everyone if homosexuality were restricted.
I don’t think that makes much sense. I also don’t think it makes much sense for abortion to be used a birth control, but I have to respect the “pro-choice” position, just as I have to respect “anti-gay” movements, so long as they also show respect.
Valdrax
Depends on the denomination and the part of the country. Churches that use actual wine are relatively rare in the South, for example.
maarvarq
It has been a long time since I took communion (happy agnostic now, thanks very much) but I don’t remember getting wine or grape juice at all. OTOH, I have reason to believe our priest was a little weird.
R
Catholic churches are supposed to only use wine (Jesus didn’t say “take this grape juice/koolaid … it is my blood”). The Catholic Church is what kept the US vineyards in tact during Prohibition.
David
My father’s answer to this was “Grape Juice is basically wine- the alcohol isn’t the important part.” I know very little of the chemical differences between wine and grape juice, so I don’t have an opinion to throw into the ring. It’s mostly just symbolic in the Baptist churches I go to, though, and I don’t think anyone would care if you just dropped purple food coloring into a bit of sugar water. (Well, they would, but only because that would be really weird…)
R
Catholics believe in transubstantiation, which leads them to be purists about the materials used in the Eucharist. For example, I can’t take communion because it has to have gluten in it, even if it makes me sick. It’s one of the big dividing points between Catholics and Protestants. It’s interesting, but more as an academic point of view to me.
Er, I haven’t been since Easter, but my parents’ Lutheran church definitely serves wine and always has. Every week. And they’re not the only one in the area.
But then, Lutheran is basically Catholic Light. So, maybe it’s just those two that tend to do wine, and a lot of other Protestants don’t?
R
Lutheranism is the first Reformation-based offshoot of Catholicism. It’s ironically one of the closest to Catholicism these days (it probably helped that the Catholic response to some of the grievances was to address them, through the formation orders like the Jesuits, etc). The Church of England is also pretty close to Catholicism. Sadly I know about 10x more about Reformation era denominations than current ones.
Marisynos
😀 Cool, i learn something new every day. I wasn’t sure about whether Lutherans held communion (with wine) every week 🙂 Thanks for sharing 🙂
Marisynos
Catholic and Episcopal… and maybe Lutheran? I’m not sure about that one. Liturgical churches 🙂 But as far as I know, no grape juice for either of the first two.
I was raised baptist, then everyone but me in my family (I was already away from home) converted to Catholicism. I ended up happily in the Episcopal church 🙂
Presbyterians – at least the Presbyterian churches I’ve been to – have both wine and grape juice, and let you choose.
Mormons don’t even have grape juice, they only have water.
This concludes my expansive knowledge of non-Catholic communion practices.
vlademir1
The exact nature of the Eucharist varies between denominations and sects withing denominations for quite a wide variety of reasons theological, historical and practical. Wikipedia has an article on the topic that matches what I know of the practices within most denominations.
One thing that seems unknown, or at least uncommented upon, in the comments here is that some Christian groups practice closed communion. That said, considering what we know of Joyce, I’d expect her to be of a denomination that, if the Eucharist is offered, it will be grape juice and an open communion.
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Very well said, thanks for the info.
Anyways, I’m glad this conversation didn’t start a huge argument, haha! It was kept civil by all sides, certainly a refreshing change in this topic.
Marisynos
I didn’t even know that Mormons had any type of communion service. Unless I’m reading that wrong, lol. 🙂
She has probably attended before. Even if she grew up in an atheist family, which isn’t likely in Indiana, it’s easy for individual members to get roped into going with a friend or a date, as happened here.
They gave us grape juice instead of wine. That’s actually how I learned what grape juice tastes like.
The most interesting thing for me when I was little was trying to figure out where God was in the church. I mean, they said it was God’s HOUSE so I figured that He HAD to be in there somewhere. I was convinced He was playing hide-and-go-seek with everyone.
I think that’s a natural response for a child. 🙂
Asuka L.S.
Maybe. But I think the funniest thing was when I asked what the holy water was used for. I asked because I was thirsty and wanted to drink it (I was going to grab one of the decorative chalices and take a swig). But when they told me it was God’s water, I thought “Well, I’d better leave it alone then. That water belongs to God.”
It didn’t really answer my question, but it satisfied my intent behind the question and thus ended my interest. I still wonder if holy water tastes any different from regular water. Maybe I should drink some.
R
Holy water tastes like salt and people’s fingers. At least that’s what my dad told me. I did not ask him how he knew that.
Asuka L.S.
Not right out of the pedestal, though. I’d just buy a small flask or something.
You only get wine after you’ve received the first sacrament of Baptism and the second sacrament of First Communion through the Catholic chuch. If you drink the wine or imbibe the host without having the proper sacraments, it is a heresy.
If Willis used a semicolon; as forcefully demonstrated here, it would have worked better. On the other hand, Dorothy seems like she’d have awkward pauses while speaking.
deepblueink
Doh, don’t listen to me, the first part of the sentence is a dependent clause. Without the second part (at the end of the sentence) it doesn’t complete itself logically. Dorothy’s awkward interjection just so happens to be in a awkward sentence with correct structure. No fix is require.
lord of dance
woah… i wish i knew things about english. unfortunately i used to nap in that class to get well rested for physics
If you refer to commas as commata, you are going to get strange looks even from professional, published writers.
Commata were the original commas, indicating the end of a phrase. It is a bit of an archaic word.
Okay, yes, this suggestion of Joyce’s will probably bring some hate, but considering how naive she is, she approached this… fairly maturely. It’s only if she likes what she hears, after all…
Please don’t hate her. Look at the adorable derpface!
It’s not an insult, it’s an assessment of the situation 😛
johannhowitzer
One further, it was postscript. “Hey, we’d love to have you at this party!” “Oh cool, I’ll be there.” “Awesome. Plus, y’know, this means I can say I was out with you last night, so the RA won’t be suspicious.”
Nothing to swallow here – unless you are allergic to all things religious.
I dunno. It’s not like Joyce is saying “I can’t associate with you because you’re atheist.” She’d just like to put her parents’ minds at ease. And I actually bet they don’t mind nearly as much as Becky does.
Xi
Considering in It’s Walky her mom prayed to God to subtley let Joyce and Walky know to stop “pulling it out, or doing it in the ass or whatever” at a dinner prayer so that she could get grandkids, I doubt she cares at all… but this is DOAverse, and not Walky!verse, so yeah….
begbert2
I seriously doubt that DOA!JoyceMom wants Joyce pregnant right now.
I think the Joyce in WV was in her mid-late 20s when her mother prayed for that, DoA Joyce is like 17-18, so I doubt the mother would be expecting grandkids from her until her education is complete at least.
364 thoughts on “Walked”
David Herbert
Don’t knock it until you try it Dorothy. You get wine.
R
Mostly at Catholic services… Joyce isn’t Catholic. Isn’t she some evangelical offshoot or Baptist or something? I guess I don’t know much about Baptists…
NakedDumblydore
If that’s the case, they probably have grape juice or red kool-aid.
…Prrrobablly not kool-aid, now that I think about it.
Blarge
It lemonade and sweet tea
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Joyce’s parents might be hardcore Baptists, though I think her dad might be a little more than her mom is. The Baptist denomination has gotten pretty legalistic in most churches which really doesn’t bide well with some members in the congregation. If I’m reading Joyce right, I’d say her mother and her brothers may be a little on the Independent Baptist/Non-Denominational side which is how my family is. In fact most of our original church became like that before/during the split of that church. The new guy made everything so legalistic and weird when he came in and weeded out those who didn’t agree with him. It was either follow him or you’re not a Christian which is completely UN-BIBLICAL where it clearly says follow Christ and not man.
Anyways, back to the point, Joyce is being a concerned Christian trying to reach out to the unsaved.
Also for those wondering about the whole wine-thing, wine is primarily only served at Catholic churches, yes, though I think even they go mostly grape juice nowadays. Most other denominations serve only grape juice for communion which is held quarterly or monthly depending on the church and is reserved as a special event and not every Sunday. And then of course the crackers for the bread.
lord of dance
… new guy?
also catholic churches still mostly use wine. i cant speak for all, but every church i’ve been to either does wine or nothing
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Nah, I’ve been on here almost a year now
Anyways, I’ve never been to a church that serves wine, haha! Makes me wonder how I’d do visiting a Catholic church. Never been to one. But guess that answers that
lord of dance
ah… i meant that as in “whos the ‘new guy’ that rocked the baptist church”
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Now I get what you’re saying haha! Yeah, he practically lied on multiple issues to get in the church, one was the music and the other was on what kind of material he taught and who he got it from (which was Bill Gothard who is very legalistic. Not to be confused with the hymn writer Bill Gaither) the church held two votes which shouldn’t have happened and later on that caused a split just after the 20th anniversary of the church too.
Kalan
“serves wine” isn’t exactly the right phrase for how it’s used. It’s more of an extremely minimal perfunctory sip, not really much more than wetting your lip. If anyone stumbles out of church, you can count on it being for some other reason (or at least from some other source).
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
But yeah, I’ve been on here almost a year now. I’ve even got an idea to combine one of my Ranger fanfics with this story arc.
Khrene Cleaver
I think he was meant moreso the the new guy in your church story. You said a new guy came in and didn’t introduce what position he had in the church or anyhting about him. I got the gist of what you meant though.
On another note, yeah churches are getting a lot more political.
When I went back home to Los Angeles a while back, my mother’s relatively new pasture got himself a section on the radio and he spread his negative viewpoints about teaching kids gay history. I was kinda shocked, I don’t like how a good chunk of the Black Community and our churches fight against the Gay Agenda, it ain’t quite the damn same as being Black but hell I think we’re missing the point is that people and events can be omitted from history simply because they revolve around homo-sexuality, like the fact that anal sex (sodomy) was illegal in the US till 1961, I never learned in high school. It’s not so much about the act of anal sex, it about the value behind making a consensual sex act illegal due to residual puritan values.
The irony of it all is that we strive as a people to be Black and different from our once oppressors, but we cling on to Christianity, but the reason why my parents and any other Black person with ancestry in the American slavery of Africans believe in Jesus Christ is because White people abducted our ancestors, separated them from their children, beat and raped the religion into the off spring of our forefathers.
There some good stuff in Christianity, really there is, but we just get so caught up in the Idol instead of the ideal. Its also like this in the bible I really want to read more, but the few passages I read, there was a pretty clear divergence between just being a good and loving person and in the next paragraph the tone would change any goos is redefined as being dressed in the robe of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Khrene Cleaver
Man I wish I was back on my friends computer cause I had this cute Roz avatar that would went so well with that comment.
Khrene Cleaver
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-2/01-pajama-jeans/bus/#comment-48089
Look above that reply, thats also me. My comps been out of commission, and I’ve been borrowing my roommates old laptop. I finally got my comp fixed.
Khrene Cleaver
Yah know its weird that my two avatars had sex… and on camera none the less…
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
I’m just going to say that most churches are still against gay marriage including mine. But we are only against the action and not the people. We believe that the action is a sin and should not be allowed within the church. It’s spoken against in the Bible and even described as a disgusting, perverse change that people start to lust after each other. That’s all I’m going to say right now since I’m not well equipped to make an argument about it right now.
begbert2
I’ve heard that most or all of the bits against it in the bible are either mistranslations or not very clear in what they’re talking about, to the point that the notion that they’re about gay sex at all (as opposed to, say, BDSM or something like that) is simply wild speculation. (Albeit wild speculation thought up generations ago and since codified through repetition.) If one does plain reads of the text and does further research, the ‘evidence’ either evaporates or at least becomes considerably more slippery.
(I’m not really the best guy to argue this either, so I’ll stop here.)
R
I was going to go on a rant, but I decided just to address this one point: If I were to say that I accept you, but I don’t accept your close relationship with your parents/sibling(s), how would that make you feel? (I can trot out bible verses too if you’d like)
I’m a lesbian and I’m married. Being married is a significant fact about myself, it’s not just some inane quirk like preference for drinking one cup of earl grey once a fortnight. It’s condescending and ignorant of Christians to say that they love me but they don’t approve of my relationship. Be honest- say that you hate me so much that you don’t think I deserve any sort of chance at familial happiness outside of my family of origin.
I’m not going to address your biblical points that you aren’t prepared to defend, you clearly aren’t very interested in them, and I find those parts of the bible dull at this point in my life.
Khrene Cleaver
@ R No way I would be able said it better myself.
But it sucks cause this kinda a bit of an anti-Christian circle jerk. And thats never right.
Even though there a lot of things that don’t sit well with me like the Bible’s limitless possibility of mistranslations and out right changes from the original text, Christianity’s cult like teachings, and the few but very loud ignorant followers, there still are some good values in it.
It may not be obvious through all the mess, but I think many followers of Christ, are like Joyce and at their core, they just want the same thing we and that most others want, to love and respect one another.
Now Imma end here.before this critique sandwhich becomes an open-faced double decker with chili and cheese on top.
David
Can we disagree on something without treating each other like dirt? R, you’re the only one who showed any prejudice there. Tim’s statement was respectful, and honestly, perfectly respectable. You came completely out of nowhere accusing him of hatred. It is not condescending for someone to disagree with you without disrespecting you.
Which is not to say I agree with him. I support LGBT very strongly, but that doesn’t mean I have to bite someone’s head off if they happen to think gay sex is wrong. (It simply isn’t the same thing as claiming superiority over or disrespecting someone for their sexual preferences.) So long as you treat people with respect, it doesn’t bother me that someone might believe homosexuality is wrong- even if I think the belief itself is more than a little silly.
I’m a Christian (non-denominational), and I usually consider myself a Conservative. I just happen to think there’s nothing wrong with homosexual relationships. To throw decent people who happen to disagree with you into a lump with bigots is nothing less than prejudice in its own right. You can debate the matter, and say you think their opinions are foolish and unfair, but that does not make them stupid and bigoted people.
I’m tired of LGBT advocates, as well as libertarians in general, who claim to fight for equality and rationality, and then go out of their way to perpetuate hatred. My opinions on religion and LGBT matters have been all over the place at different points in my life, but I’ve found that, no matter what you your position, there is someone there who agrees with you, and manages to unconsciously devote their every act of support to showing the worst of whatever it is you’re fighting for. Christians who cherry pick the teachings that are most convenient to them, to excuse their own actions, and people who bring the fight for equality full-circle back to prejudice.
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Thanks David for backing me here. I am in no way a right wing propagandist and definitely not a left wing by any stretch of course. I never said I hated anyone for what they do, to hate someone is wrong and ungodly. I do happen to have a few friends that say they are ‘gay’ and one of them actually got married not too long ago in the summer. I also worked with a guy at KFC a couple years ago whom is also ‘gay’, though that relationship was completely strange and really embarrassing to witness, lol! And he was one of my managers at the time!!!! I actually respected the guy and was somewhat friends with him for a while until he left and dropped off the map.
All in all I don’t think it’s right how people say to ‘tolerate’ other religions and practices, but at the same time if I or any other Christian speaks anything Christian based or disagrees with an issue, then we’re automatically bashed for intolerance. If there was a such thing as a hypocritical sinner, that would be an example. But Jesus did say that those who spoke in his name would be persecuted, whether minimally or being killed like what is going on in the middle east.
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Oh, and an answer to your post there begbert, it is true that there are some mistakes in the English translation, because so many English words have so many different meanings unlike the original texts from Latin, Greek and Hebrew. Unfortunately, it’s only been recently that’s been realized, but it’s not too late to correct them.
Hebrew was considered to be the perfect language from the time of Moses (Who wrote Genesis through Leviticus) and beyond and every letter had to be written correctly to a tee to make sure everything was followed and correct. Then when Greek came into the picture the texts were then translated into Greek since it was becoming one of the main languages back then and just in case multiple copies were made for it. It was also just as Latin was coming into play.
Also, Luke (who was a doctor in Jesus’ day and one of his disciples) did most of the writing for Paul’s journeys and his book. And remember, doctors HAVE to be precise. So by what is known as 100 A.D., all the original texts and most of the New Testament was translated into all of these three languages. It’s when the languages started splitting, things became confusing and the church knew they had to get texts translated into those different languages. So my multiple x7 (maybe) great grandfather, John Reynolds, translated the King James Version, the most known version and William Tindall Study Bible (Not very widely known and is one that my grandpa studies most often. He also studies the original texts, mostly Hebrew and Latin)
Well that’s all I got for now.
David
It’s only guessed that Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts. The two books were definitely written by the same author, but the identity of that author remains unknown. It’s only decided to be Luke by Church tradition. It’s most likely both of those books were written by somebody who never met Paul, long after his death, since details of Acts don’t line up with what Paul says about himself in the letters he wrote.
R
@Khrene Cleaver – I’m not anti-Christian. Christianity and homophobia are not synonyms, despite what anti-gay groups would have you believe. There are many Christian churches that are very supportive of gay rights, including marriage equality. I can generate a list if you’d like.
R
@David – I did not call him a bigot. His belief (which is not unique to him, I’ve heard it a lot before) is what is hateful, not him as a person. I don’t think he was aware of why it a hateful belief, so I thought it would be helpful to illustrate why. I was a conservative Catholic as a teenager, and a lot of the more intolerant beliefs I held were because I hadn’t been exposed to anything but straw-man arguments of other points of views and I had no idea how they affected actual people. From what he’s said, it sounds like he has very limited experience with gay people, so I think at least I’ve exposed him to the point of view of a married somewhat-older (~30) gay person who is addressing his actual argument. I had assumed he wanted to talk about it, as he brought up gay rights apropos of nothing in the comments of a gay-friendly comic.
For the sake of clarification: What level of support from others is required for my gratitude and silence about matters important to me? I’d like you to clarify what you require to not be offended, if that’s okay with you.
The fact that I’m married has allowed my wife to have access to quality life-saving medicine and treatment for conditions that would otherwise have put her in life-long debt at best and would have killed her at worst. Also marriage isn’t something we’re doing for show, we’re finally buying a house together this year and are planning on adopting a non-infant out of foster care as we want to give a happy home to a child in need. I can’t understand why you or anyone would be bothered that it offends me when people disrespect my family and see my marriage as some minor thing, especially when they don’t seem very interested in why they are doing so.
R
@ Tim – I don’t like it when anyone’s publicly inappropriately demonstrative with affection too. I don’t think about other people (gay or straight) having sex either. I think that’s very normal. 🙂
Also, I’m a history nut- medicine was much different back in the day than currently, I wouldn’t rely on the fact that Luke was a doctor, training requirements varied from medical school to virtually nothing depending on where he worked. That said, he was a wonderful historian, and he did a lot of great research when he authored his texts (Luke and Acts). The Gospel of Luke is my favorite actually.
David
I apologize if I misunderstood your intentions. “Be honest- say that you hate me so much that you don’t think I deserve any sort of chance at familial happiness outside of my family of origin,” was the phrase that made me twitchy.
ble.d_out.colo.r
While I don’t see Tim as being bigoted per se, it does make me cringe that he (I will assume that Tim is male) wrapped gay in quotations as if to say that we choose our sexuality. It is rather offensive to me, as I have never consciously made the choice to like other men, nor would i have if I had the choice to. That being said I am proud of who I am as part of the LGBT community. Also, one other thing that is cringeworthy is the use of “Gay Agenda” in Khrene’s post. Our only agenda is equality and respect. Anyone claiming otherwise is an extremist. The phrase “Gay Agenda” in itself is demonizing, and makes a statement sound bigoted even if, as in this case, it is not. So be careful when using this phrase because it can make people assume that you think gay people are terrorists pedophiles who are out to recruit your children….and the gay community generally doesn’t take well to that haha.
I respect the right to religion…but I have to say that I believe that the right to marry should be guaranteed as a human right in America, because America has seperation of church and state and because anything other than that would be a theocracy. Which we clearly are not. Anyone who uses their voting power to deny rights to LGBT people are allowing their beliefs to direct their power in a bigoted way. Which is why I don’t think people should vote with their religious views, and instead should vote in a strictly secular way, while still practicing their religious views during personal worship. Even if i personally disagree with something, I try to seperate my values from what is best for the country as a whole, and what gives equal, human rights to the country as a whole. Just my two cents.
David
I agree that, in any political or emotionally charged issue, one should be very cautious about any unintentional connotations in their wording. Especially when your actual intentions are causing enough tension already.
And, to be fair, there is a significant portion of the LGBT movement whose agenda also includes “demonize anyone who disagrees with us”. Every group has its crazies, you just have to remember that they almost never make up the foundation of the group.
The problem with your ideal of voting is that most people who hold moral values believe that if their values were held in law, it would be best for society. It isn’t theocracy for religion to have a certain amount of influence on the government- and, as the USA is a republican democracy with a very large percentage of Christians in its population, Christianity will continue to have influence.
Someone who believes homosexuality is immoral usually believes there’s more to it than just “the bible says so”- they also believe there’s some sort of detriment inherent in it, even if they only believe that as rationalization for the former belief. Try to see it from their perspective: they honestly believe that it would be for the good of everyone if homosexuality were restricted.
I don’t think that makes much sense. I also don’t think it makes much sense for abortion to be used a birth control, but I have to respect the “pro-choice” position, just as I have to respect “anti-gay” movements, so long as they also show respect.
Valdrax
Depends on the denomination and the part of the country. Churches that use actual wine are relatively rare in the South, for example.
maarvarq
It has been a long time since I took communion (happy agnostic now, thanks very much) but I don’t remember getting wine or grape juice at all. OTOH, I have reason to believe our priest was a little weird.
R
Catholic churches are supposed to only use wine (Jesus didn’t say “take this grape juice/koolaid … it is my blood”). The Catholic Church is what kept the US vineyards in tact during Prohibition.
David
My father’s answer to this was “Grape Juice is basically wine- the alcohol isn’t the important part.” I know very little of the chemical differences between wine and grape juice, so I don’t have an opinion to throw into the ring. It’s mostly just symbolic in the Baptist churches I go to, though, and I don’t think anyone would care if you just dropped purple food coloring into a bit of sugar water. (Well, they would, but only because that would be really weird…)
R
Catholics believe in transubstantiation, which leads them to be purists about the materials used in the Eucharist. For example, I can’t take communion because it has to have gluten in it, even if it makes me sick. It’s one of the big dividing points between Catholics and Protestants. It’s interesting, but more as an academic point of view to me.
Shen
Er, I haven’t been since Easter, but my parents’ Lutheran church definitely serves wine and always has. Every week. And they’re not the only one in the area.
But then, Lutheran is basically Catholic Light. So, maybe it’s just those two that tend to do wine, and a lot of other Protestants don’t?
R
Lutheranism is the first Reformation-based offshoot of Catholicism. It’s ironically one of the closest to Catholicism these days (it probably helped that the Catholic response to some of the grievances was to address them, through the formation orders like the Jesuits, etc). The Church of England is also pretty close to Catholicism. Sadly I know about 10x more about Reformation era denominations than current ones.
Marisynos
😀 Cool, i learn something new every day. I wasn’t sure about whether Lutherans held communion (with wine) every week 🙂 Thanks for sharing 🙂
Marisynos
Catholic and Episcopal… and maybe Lutheran? I’m not sure about that one. Liturgical churches 🙂 But as far as I know, no grape juice for either of the first two.
I was raised baptist, then everyone but me in my family (I was already away from home) converted to Catholicism. I ended up happily in the Episcopal church 🙂
Lis
The Episcopalian church that my parents attend and that I went to before coming out of the broom closet (pagan) has real wine at communion.
Rachelkachel
Presbyterians – at least the Presbyterian churches I’ve been to – have both wine and grape juice, and let you choose.
Mormons don’t even have grape juice, they only have water.
This concludes my expansive knowledge of non-Catholic communion practices.
vlademir1
The exact nature of the Eucharist varies between denominations and sects withing denominations for quite a wide variety of reasons theological, historical and practical. Wikipedia has an article on the topic that matches what I know of the practices within most denominations.
One thing that seems unknown, or at least uncommented upon, in the comments here is that some Christian groups practice closed communion. That said, considering what we know of Joyce, I’d expect her to be of a denomination that, if the Eucharist is offered, it will be grape juice and an open communion.
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Very well said, thanks for the info.
Anyways, I’m glad this conversation didn’t start a huge argument, haha! It was kept civil by all sides, certainly a refreshing change in this topic.
Marisynos
I didn’t even know that Mormons had any type of communion service. Unless I’m reading that wrong, lol. 🙂
Janos
She probably has, hence why she’s an atheist .
Viktoria
She has probably attended before. Even if she grew up in an atheist family, which isn’t likely in Indiana, it’s easy for individual members to get roped into going with a friend or a date, as happened here.
Asuka L.S.
They gave us grape juice instead of wine. That’s actually how I learned what grape juice tastes like.
The most interesting thing for me when I was little was trying to figure out where God was in the church. I mean, they said it was God’s HOUSE so I figured that He HAD to be in there somewhere. I was convinced He was playing hide-and-go-seek with everyone.
…I was an imaginative child. O_O
R
I think that’s a natural response for a child. 🙂
Asuka L.S.
Maybe. But I think the funniest thing was when I asked what the holy water was used for. I asked because I was thirsty and wanted to drink it (I was going to grab one of the decorative chalices and take a swig). But when they told me it was God’s water, I thought “Well, I’d better leave it alone then. That water belongs to God.”
It didn’t really answer my question, but it satisfied my intent behind the question and thus ended my interest. I still wonder if holy water tastes any different from regular water. Maybe I should drink some.
R
Holy water tastes like salt and people’s fingers. At least that’s what my dad told me. I did not ask him how he knew that.
Asuka L.S.
Not right out of the pedestal, though. I’d just buy a small flask or something.
MichaelHaneline
You only get wine after you’ve received the first sacrament of Baptism and the second sacrament of First Communion through the Catholic chuch. If you drink the wine or imbibe the host without having the proper sacraments, it is a heresy.
Marisynos
Not only First Communion, but each Sunday at every communion, as I understand it.
tbf
So their church date will be around 2013?
Digidestined of Trust (Tim)
Wow, you might be right! Took a year just to get through almost 3 days I think
ryan
it’s been about a week.
Phillip Wilde
This story arc is Saturday. Sunday morning will come in a few weeks.
MichaelHaneline
2016
TaZZerath
Dorothy feels so bad she needs TWO commas! 😀
Plasma Mongoose
I wonder if Willis will fix it.
deepblueink
If Willis used a semicolon; as forcefully demonstrated here, it would have worked better. On the other hand, Dorothy seems like she’d have awkward pauses while speaking.
deepblueink
Doh, don’t listen to me, the first part of the sentence is a dependent clause. Without the second part (at the end of the sentence) it doesn’t complete itself logically. Dorothy’s awkward interjection just so happens to be in a awkward sentence with correct structure. No fix is require.
lord of dance
woah… i wish i knew things about english. unfortunately i used to nap in that class to get well rested for physics
Xi
I wish I could like/+1 this comment…
Plasma Mongoose
Yes he fixed it.
Lex
Random fact of the day- the plural of comma is commata 🙂
MichaelHaneline
If you refer to commas as commata, you are going to get strange looks even from professional, published writers.
Commata were the original commas, indicating the end of a phrase. It is a bit of an archaic word.
Joraiem
Okay, yes, this suggestion of Joyce’s will probably bring some hate, but considering how naive she is, she approached this… fairly maturely. It’s only if she likes what she hears, after all…
Please don’t hate her. Look at the adorable derpface!
Janos
“I’d love it if you came to church with me so I don’t have to tell my parents I’m associating with the godless”
Sorry not enough cutederp face in the world to make that easy to swallow =/
iSaidCandleja-
It’s not an insult, it’s an assessment of the situation 😛
johannhowitzer
One further, it was postscript. “Hey, we’d love to have you at this party!” “Oh cool, I’ll be there.” “Awesome. Plus, y’know, this means I can say I was out with you last night, so the RA won’t be suspicious.”
Nothing to swallow here – unless you are allergic to all things religious.
NakedDumblydore
I dunno. It’s not like Joyce is saying “I can’t associate with you because you’re atheist.” She’d just like to put her parents’ minds at ease. And I actually bet they don’t mind nearly as much as Becky does.
Xi
Considering in It’s Walky her mom prayed to God to subtley let Joyce and Walky know to stop “pulling it out, or doing it in the ass or whatever” at a dinner prayer so that she could get grandkids, I doubt she cares at all… but this is DOAverse, and not Walky!verse, so yeah….
begbert2
I seriously doubt that DOA!JoyceMom wants Joyce pregnant right now.
Plasma Mongoose
I think the Joyce in WV was in her mid-late 20s when her mother prayed for that, DoA Joyce is like 17-18, so I doubt the mother would be expecting grandkids from her until her education is complete at least.