Also known as « not funny enough to be replacement Mike »
keithcurtis
I think the difference between Mike and Booster is that although both are amazingly perceptive and able to see through other’s BS, Booster announces their findings just to show off this ability. Mike always had a motive, often long-term. Though manipulative, this was usually a growth experience for his “victims”.
Ferret
I think the other key difference is that Booster is less cruel about it. They mostly make catty remarks, while what Mike did occasionally crossed the line into psychological torture.
Daibhid C
But psychological torture that was good for people, probably!
thejeff
Yeah, abuse can be a “growth experience”.
“This is part of why I’ve been poking Amber’s bear for five friggin’ years. She’s multiple timebombs. Just wind her up and point her dadwards.”
Mike was abusive and destructive and he realized that in his last moments. He did have motives and plans, but they were not good for his targets.
Walky only had to deal with him for a couple months and he’s still traumatized about Mike faking his death just to mess with him.
Plaaaaaa
Gay Mike. As in happy, not sexuality.
Jay
Yeah, Mike wasn’t happy but wasn’t straight either.
Mike would probably say his sexuality was “your mom” but “your dad” was very much on the table too. (IIRC literally, in Shortpacked?)
I wouldn’t say Booster is correct here. Walky isn’t trash. He is a good boyfriend and in general a good person. He has done a lot of work on his main issue of conflict avoidance. At this point he really doesn’t deserve the flack he gets.
Psychie
Yeah, a LOT of people put a weird amount of stock in whether someone is “good enough” for somebody else based on whatever arbitrary metric they personally value, whether that’s earning potential, social clout, ambition, physical attractiveness, arbitrarily defined morality, belief system, whatever.
In reality the only one who can decide if someone is “good enough” for you is YOU. Your own opinion and that of your partner are literally the ONLY ones that matter. My GF is more attractive than me (given normal societal standards), more ambitious than me, and has a higher earning potential than me (although I currently make more as she’s taking time off work to care for her sick mother), but I am happier, I have more social clout, and depending on your opinions on morality I would generally be rated as “better” on most of the common/popular metrics, so depending on what you personally value, either one of us could be considered “not good enough” for the other. But SHE finds me attractive, so society’s definitions of attractiveness don’t matter, SHE cares more about how happy I make her and how well I treat her than my desire to rise in the world (or lack thereof) or my earning potential, meanwhile *I* never cared about social perceptions (amusingly this is how I got clout, somehow), and my own moral system rates her as just as “good” as I am regardless of what anybody else thinks. She decided I’m good enough for her, and I’ve decided she’s good enough for me, we make each other happy, and that is literally all that matters.
Decidedly Orthogonal
There is one relationship metric which is valid and important for others to evaluate and share their obvservations with someone about: is their partner an asshoke / abusive. Letting someone know they’re too good to be deserving of abuse is very important, because by its nature it makes people believe they deserve it.
They. do. not.
thejeff
That’s very true, but it has almost nothing to do with the usual “not good enough for them” or “out of their league” kind of talk.
Psychie
Everyone is too good for abuse, nobody deserves it. If anybody sees the signs that someone is in an abusive relationship, I agree there is an obligation to help them get out of it, especially if it is someone you care about. Having said that, if you encounter someone in such a situation and you at any point use the phrase “you are too good for them” in your attempts to convince them to leave their abuser, you are an idiot, because that isn’t a particularly accurate way to describe the situation, nor would it ever be a particularly effective way to convince them to leave their abuser.
I considered including something to that effect in my ramblings, but I ultimately left it out because I didn’t consider it relevant enough to the topic at hand and I already had enough digressions. Abuse and how to deal with loved ones in abusive relationships is a very complex and difficult topic, but any similarities to the language and dynamics currently being discussed are extremely superficial and even the slightest amount of scrutiny with critical thinking would make it clear they are completely unrelated issues, and frankly I find the suggestion that one should conflate the two problematic because it runs the risk of somebody coming to the conclusion that their own subjective assessment of whether or not someone is “good enough” for someone else is a reliable way of identifying abuse. Someone dating a “loser” is not in an abusive relationship. Someone dating someone of lesser attractiveness is not in an abusive relationship. Someone dating someone of lower social status is not in an abusive relationship. Someone is only in an abusive relationship if they are dating an abuser, and bringing up abuse as a potential counter argument to my position that other people’s OPINIONS about relationships they are not part of don’t matter runs the risk of some people coming to the conclusion that they can call someone they don’t like an abuser to get their friend to stop dating them, or whatever. Yes, there 100% are idiots like that, and they are a massive pain in the butt to deal with whenever they get a bug up their butt about something and feel they can justify their own BS by wrapping it up in hot button buzzwords, which not only makes them annoying when you’re the subject of their BS, but it’s also harmful for the very serious topics they try to weaponize for the sake of their own BS.
Myth
I really like that you acknowledged the very, very important difference between “You don’t deserve to be abused” and “You are too good for them”/“They are not good enough for you”. On the surface, both might seem to be making the same point about self-worth, but the thing is… even the nastiest, worst person in the world *still* doesn’t deserve to be abused.
One of my mom’s coworkers lived with us for a while. She called her boyfriend every day and all their conversations turned into shouting matches. One time, she thought her boyfriend had cheated on her with a black woman, and she was standing on my porch screaming racial slurs at the top of her lungs into the phone, and I hated her so, so much right then. I was furious and humiliated, worrying that the neighbors would think we were bad people because of her.
Even then, I tried to convince her that the relationship was unhealthy. They were both terrible people, and I think the two of them were both abusing each other, from what I observed. There were a few moments of weakness when I thought they deserved each other. But those were moments of weakness. Nobody deserves to be treated that way, and a cycle of mutual toxicity like that… No one is going to become a better person by being abused. And I can’t bear to imagine the example she was setting for her 14-year-old daughter.
It’s interesting because, I went looking and they have like three 1-on-1 interactions……. on screen. All of them point to Dorothy having Actually TOLD Booster about her current predicaments. I wonder what kind of conversations they’ve had? Like. She’s clearly asked for advice at least once.
yeah i don’t think so. all of her previous behavior (political aspirations) was actually the self-destructive part. Learning what she actually wants is healthy. and i don’t think her and walky are a bad match at all.
other than walky being a complete “Mary” i don’t think there would be a thing as “too good” for another person XD; if anything someone “too good” for another might make one try harder if they don’t get an inferiority complex/want to imrpove eeach other
If you’re early you need to use the opportunity for something. I dunno. Something like DOA14: I’ll go put on pants. Or maybe, “Wow, Jocelyn returns in book 15!” Or even “Man, I wish Mike would return with no explanation except a vague reference to witness protection. “
as far as spiraling goes, hooking up with walky isn’t the worst thing, assuming that lucy did a complete breakup as oppose to “I need some space for now before making a lastin decision”
At this point if Lucy didn’t want a complete breakup that is entirely on her. Just not communicating is a dickish thing to do
Freemage
This. I’m fine with Lucy deciding that she needs someone more definitively in ‘her corner’ than Walky was able to be. I’d be fine with it if she decided to fall back from that position after further consideration, and re-open negotiations.
But if she meant that “Fuck you” exit to be anything other than a breakup, I’m just going to go back and read Shortpacked any time it comes up, because I much prefer that incarnation of her.
She’s fairly not self destructive for a person clearly struggling with PTSD and Depression.
IMO Booster’s analysis is totally off base here… once again… Dorothy pursuing Walky costs her very little and lets her seek closure if she needs it. Indeed the thing that Booster warns against is Walky accepting her, which given how things are going, could be very good for Dorothy.
Like I want to see Walky’s belief in Dorothy confront her disillusionment. I would kind of like to see that belief win. But given how much he supports her I think her going to him is like crazy constructive and screw Booster in this situation.
The problem with Walky’s support here is that he supports her being what’s she’s coming to see as toxic – that she’s perfect, can do everything she wants as long as she just powers through any doubts or difficulties.
I don’t think that’s what she needs right now. She needs a kind of support that will accept she’s got actual issues to deal with.
it feels to me that he didn’t want her, but he didn’t want to fuck up and disappoint her, and…. he did that.
Sajuuk-Khar
It’s this. It’s completely this. He’s not down bad for Lucy now, he just would like to not have the immense burden of guilt for fucking up and hurting her.
Like, say what you want about him and Dorothy here (and people are saying a whole lot, none of which is substantiated anywhere, and which involves concepts like “using him as a dildo”, which suggests to me that you also use the term “cock carousel” with a straight face) but at least when they broke up it was mutual and while it hurt it hurt them both equally. In the case of Lucy, he bungled it, he knows it, he doesn’t like the feeling.
I really don’t think Walky fucked up. Lucy fucked up by projecting a whole ton onto a pretty new relationship. Then when she realized, instead of handling it she blamed Walky in any way she could.
Lucy isn’t horrible but I still think Walky basically dodged a bullet. Her infatuation with him wasn’t balanced and her religious neurosis were a barrier to authentic connection.
thejeff
I think that if Walky had corrected that initial misunderstanding about loving her right away, they might have been able to salvage the relationship. And he might well have grown to love her eventually. She was just much farther along.
But, that kind of discussion would have been really hard to have without it blowing up.
IDK if walky wondering if lucy visiting is necessarily ‘down bad’ b/c i can imagine other than ‘needing space’ she might still be willing to reach out and invite him to hang out platonically as friends/what they were doing before (minus the ‘handholding’ or so)
252 thoughts on “Undertaking”
YordleJay
Man booster. You’re a butthole sometimes
Animedingo
Absolute bongo
Shakes
Perhaps, but also a correct one.
YordleJay
A clean butthole is still a butthole
NGPZ
have an upvote earthling
Decidedly Orthogonal
A clean butt hole can also be an invitation to play.
Railgun
Also known as « replacement Mike »
MordWa
Also known as « not funny enough to be replacement Mike »
keithcurtis
I think the difference between Mike and Booster is that although both are amazingly perceptive and able to see through other’s BS, Booster announces their findings just to show off this ability. Mike always had a motive, often long-term. Though manipulative, this was usually a growth experience for his “victims”.
Ferret
I think the other key difference is that Booster is less cruel about it. They mostly make catty remarks, while what Mike did occasionally crossed the line into psychological torture.
Daibhid C
But psychological torture that was good for people, probably!
thejeff
Yeah, abuse can be a “growth experience”.
“This is part of why I’ve been poking Amber’s bear for five friggin’ years. She’s multiple timebombs. Just wind her up and point her dadwards.”
Mike was abusive and destructive and he realized that in his last moments. He did have motives and plans, but they were not good for his targets.
Walky only had to deal with him for a couple months and he’s still traumatized about Mike faking his death just to mess with him.
Plaaaaaa
Gay Mike. As in happy, not sexuality.
Jay
Yeah, Mike wasn’t happy but wasn’t straight either.
Mike would probably say his sexuality was “your mom” but “your dad” was very much on the table too. (IIRC literally, in Shortpacked?)
Kaiyalai
Is it bad that I tend to think of them as ‘more realistic Mike’?
Odo
I wouldn’t say Booster is correct here. Walky isn’t trash. He is a good boyfriend and in general a good person. He has done a lot of work on his main issue of conflict avoidance. At this point he really doesn’t deserve the flack he gets.
Psychie
Yeah, a LOT of people put a weird amount of stock in whether someone is “good enough” for somebody else based on whatever arbitrary metric they personally value, whether that’s earning potential, social clout, ambition, physical attractiveness, arbitrarily defined morality, belief system, whatever.
In reality the only one who can decide if someone is “good enough” for you is YOU. Your own opinion and that of your partner are literally the ONLY ones that matter. My GF is more attractive than me (given normal societal standards), more ambitious than me, and has a higher earning potential than me (although I currently make more as she’s taking time off work to care for her sick mother), but I am happier, I have more social clout, and depending on your opinions on morality I would generally be rated as “better” on most of the common/popular metrics, so depending on what you personally value, either one of us could be considered “not good enough” for the other. But SHE finds me attractive, so society’s definitions of attractiveness don’t matter, SHE cares more about how happy I make her and how well I treat her than my desire to rise in the world (or lack thereof) or my earning potential, meanwhile *I* never cared about social perceptions (amusingly this is how I got clout, somehow), and my own moral system rates her as just as “good” as I am regardless of what anybody else thinks. She decided I’m good enough for her, and I’ve decided she’s good enough for me, we make each other happy, and that is literally all that matters.
Decidedly Orthogonal
There is one relationship metric which is valid and important for others to evaluate and share their obvservations with someone about: is their partner an asshoke / abusive. Letting someone know they’re too good to be deserving of abuse is very important, because by its nature it makes people believe they deserve it.
They. do. not.
thejeff
That’s very true, but it has almost nothing to do with the usual “not good enough for them” or “out of their league” kind of talk.
Psychie
Everyone is too good for abuse, nobody deserves it. If anybody sees the signs that someone is in an abusive relationship, I agree there is an obligation to help them get out of it, especially if it is someone you care about. Having said that, if you encounter someone in such a situation and you at any point use the phrase “you are too good for them” in your attempts to convince them to leave their abuser, you are an idiot, because that isn’t a particularly accurate way to describe the situation, nor would it ever be a particularly effective way to convince them to leave their abuser.
I considered including something to that effect in my ramblings, but I ultimately left it out because I didn’t consider it relevant enough to the topic at hand and I already had enough digressions. Abuse and how to deal with loved ones in abusive relationships is a very complex and difficult topic, but any similarities to the language and dynamics currently being discussed are extremely superficial and even the slightest amount of scrutiny with critical thinking would make it clear they are completely unrelated issues, and frankly I find the suggestion that one should conflate the two problematic because it runs the risk of somebody coming to the conclusion that their own subjective assessment of whether or not someone is “good enough” for someone else is a reliable way of identifying abuse. Someone dating a “loser” is not in an abusive relationship. Someone dating someone of lesser attractiveness is not in an abusive relationship. Someone dating someone of lower social status is not in an abusive relationship. Someone is only in an abusive relationship if they are dating an abuser, and bringing up abuse as a potential counter argument to my position that other people’s OPINIONS about relationships they are not part of don’t matter runs the risk of some people coming to the conclusion that they can call someone they don’t like an abuser to get their friend to stop dating them, or whatever. Yes, there 100% are idiots like that, and they are a massive pain in the butt to deal with whenever they get a bug up their butt about something and feel they can justify their own BS by wrapping it up in hot button buzzwords, which not only makes them annoying when you’re the subject of their BS, but it’s also harmful for the very serious topics they try to weaponize for the sake of their own BS.
Myth
I really like that you acknowledged the very, very important difference between “You don’t deserve to be abused” and “You are too good for them”/“They are not good enough for you”. On the surface, both might seem to be making the same point about self-worth, but the thing is… even the nastiest, worst person in the world *still* doesn’t deserve to be abused.
One of my mom’s coworkers lived with us for a while. She called her boyfriend every day and all their conversations turned into shouting matches. One time, she thought her boyfriend had cheated on her with a black woman, and she was standing on my porch screaming racial slurs at the top of her lungs into the phone, and I hated her so, so much right then. I was furious and humiliated, worrying that the neighbors would think we were bad people because of her.
Even then, I tried to convince her that the relationship was unhealthy. They were both terrible people, and I think the two of them were both abusing each other, from what I observed. There were a few moments of weakness when I thought they deserved each other. But those were moments of weakness. Nobody deserves to be treated that way, and a cycle of mutual toxicity like that… No one is going to become a better person by being abused. And I can’t bear to imagine the example she was setting for her 14-year-old daughter.
Thag Simmons
I feel like they’re pretty consistent about it honestly.
YordleJay
I’d say they have at least a 2 to 1 butthole ratio. Slightly lower than Mike’s 4 to 1
Thag Simmons
In terms of intensity, sure, but they’re both pretty constant about it
Dante
It’s interesting because, I went looking and they have like three 1-on-1 interactions……. on screen. All of them point to Dorothy having Actually TOLD Booster about her current predicaments. I wonder what kind of conversations they’ve had? Like. She’s clearly asked for advice at least once.
cbwroses
You and I read their interactions significantly differently, because I don’t get that she’s asked him for advice at all.
Pergola
If you don’t want advice, avoid Booster.
Slartibeast Button, BIA
Sometimes?
Chaucer59
Nah. They’re just perceptive.
lyzyrdwyzyrd
Perceptive but doesn’t keep their mouth shut makes them a butthole.
Allen Alberti
yeah i don’t think so. all of her previous behavior (political aspirations) was actually the self-destructive part. Learning what she actually wants is healthy. and i don’t think her and walky are a bad match at all.
PedanticJerkass
sometimesanon
other than walky being a complete “Mary” i don’t think there would be a thing as “too good” for another person XD; if anything someone “too good” for another might make one try harder if they don’t get an inferiority complex/want to imrpove eeach other
thejeff
Agreed. I really hate the “too good for him” type of rhetoric.
Some one can definitely be bad for a partner, but that’s a very different thing.
ValdVin
He”ll fudge you up.
ValdVin
Fudge myself: I meant they.
Hof1991
They’re not good they’re not nice, they’re just right.
Matt
wow i’ve never been here this early!
clif
If you’re early you need to use the opportunity for something. I dunno. Something like DOA14: I’ll go put on pants. Or maybe, “Wow, Jocelyn returns in book 15!” Or even “Man, I wish Mike would return with no explanation except a vague reference to witness protection. “
Opus the Poet
Except that Ethan was there when Mike died.
Meagan
He was in on it. And a really good actor.
IntangibleMatter
While I hate to see Dorothy’s self-destructive depressive spiral I also want to state that it’s also the fucking best.
justin8448
Dorothy gets an A+ in depression.
Needfuldoer
If you’re going to do something, do it right.
anon
as far as spiraling goes, hooking up with walky isn’t the worst thing, assuming that lucy did a complete breakup as oppose to “I need some space for now before making a lastin decision”
Odo
At this point if Lucy didn’t want a complete breakup that is entirely on her. Just not communicating is a dickish thing to do
Freemage
This. I’m fine with Lucy deciding that she needs someone more definitively in ‘her corner’ than Walky was able to be. I’d be fine with it if she decided to fall back from that position after further consideration, and re-open negotiations.
But if she meant that “Fuck you” exit to be anything other than a breakup, I’m just going to go back and read Shortpacked any time it comes up, because I much prefer that incarnation of her.
fridge_logic
She’s fairly not self destructive for a person clearly struggling with PTSD and Depression.
IMO Booster’s analysis is totally off base here… once again… Dorothy pursuing Walky costs her very little and lets her seek closure if she needs it. Indeed the thing that Booster warns against is Walky accepting her, which given how things are going, could be very good for Dorothy.
Like I want to see Walky’s belief in Dorothy confront her disillusionment. I would kind of like to see that belief win. But given how much he supports her I think her going to him is like crazy constructive and screw Booster in this situation.
Adam Black
Jes. Walky introduced booster to joyce and said cringe things about girl makeup. Then she asked cringe questions and took booster to meet Malaya/sal.
thejeff
The problem with Walky’s support here is that he supports her being what’s she’s coming to see as toxic – that she’s perfect, can do everything she wants as long as she just powers through any doubts or difficulties.
I don’t think that’s what she needs right now. She needs a kind of support that will accept she’s got actual issues to deal with.
Nicoleandmaggie
Exactly
Sirksome
Walky is real down bad for Lucy now. Where was this energy when they were together?
YordleJay
She still wanted to be president
PedanticJerkass
Lucy wanted to be president?
Nono
Grass is always greener.
clif
I thought it was Dorothy is always Keener.
Thag Simmons
I think he feels bad about it on account of the why more than anything, but he was clearly trying to make that relationship work
StClair
it feels to me that he didn’t want her, but he didn’t want to fuck up and disappoint her, and…. he did that.
Sajuuk-Khar
It’s this. It’s completely this. He’s not down bad for Lucy now, he just would like to not have the immense burden of guilt for fucking up and hurting her.
Like, say what you want about him and Dorothy here (and people are saying a whole lot, none of which is substantiated anywhere, and which involves concepts like “using him as a dildo”, which suggests to me that you also use the term “cock carousel” with a straight face) but at least when they broke up it was mutual and while it hurt it hurt them both equally. In the case of Lucy, he bungled it, he knows it, he doesn’t like the feeling.
Proxiehunter
Walky not feeling as intensely as Lucy did isn’t the same as him not feeling. He realizes he fucked up.
Odo
I really don’t think Walky fucked up. Lucy fucked up by projecting a whole ton onto a pretty new relationship. Then when she realized, instead of handling it she blamed Walky in any way she could.
Lucy isn’t horrible but I still think Walky basically dodged a bullet. Her infatuation with him wasn’t balanced and her religious neurosis were a barrier to authentic connection.
thejeff
I think that if Walky had corrected that initial misunderstanding about loving her right away, they might have been able to salvage the relationship. And he might well have grown to love her eventually. She was just much farther along.
But, that kind of discussion would have been really hard to have without it blowing up.
JR
Maybe the Lucy breakup is just something Walky can blame for making him feel bad when he’s really feeling bad about other stuff.
Coatl
I think the breakup with Lucy was the final bitter pill of reality for Walky.
Orange Lantern
There is no such thing as a final bitter pill in life until you literally run out of time to swallow more of those.
The funny thing about life is, it never gets that bad that it couldn’t get at least a tiny bit worse.
anon
IDK if walky wondering if lucy visiting is necessarily ‘down bad’ b/c i can imagine other than ‘needing space’ she might still be willing to reach out and invite him to hang out platonically as friends/what they were doing before (minus the ‘handholding’ or so)
Adam Black
She’s been his best friend for 3 months and now shunning him.
Walkys been almost as self destructive as Dorothy . His mother might take his rebellion on his sister or Amber
Mark
He wants something between “get lost” and “it’s a shame we can’t just get married this afternoon.”
Vanessa
Good one. He was happy just being buddies with Lucy.
Mturtle7