That would be pretty awesome… or we see a few short strips of the original timeline beginning to collapse in on itself once events in the flashback have altered and cut that timeline off…
thejeff
It would be cool, except I’d miss a lot of the developments post-timeskip.
My take on the subject is that Ruth is almost literally a different person with her medication. She no longer ENJOYS the anime hate-kiss-hate that Jennifer thrives on. There’s also the fact they almost nothing in common without the lesbian suicide pact. Particularly since Ruth isn’t interested in the suicide thing before.
Ironically, Billie DOES seem to stop drinking after she gets out of Ruth’s sphere.
They really were terrible for one another but the worst part is the fact that Billie was attracted to the BAD parts of Ruth and isn’t interested in the good ones.
So when she was goading Ruth into hitting her it was an “I know the woman I love is still in there somewhere” thing. I’d rather it was just Jennifer hating Ruth and demanding the worst from her, but that first take sounds depressingly believable.
No, it was pretty much Billie demanding the worst of her. Billie needs other people to fit into the boxes that she gives them.
AlexanderHammil
also it kind of feels like there are large parts of herself that billie actively hates—the drinking, the same-sex attraction, the nerdishness—and ruth being actively antagonistic and cruel gave her license to do/be all of those things in a way a healthier relationship wouldn’t have.
Taellosse
Billie/Jennifer has 2 versions of herself that are in constant tension – the presentable, ‘popular’, helps-other-people, apparently-empathetic version she generally presents to the world; and the wildly emotional, spiteful, impulsive, often violent, and self-destructive version that she always hides, but who is also always just beneath the surface, metaphorically whispering in her ear all the nasty words, cruel actions, and dangerous behaviors she’d do if the outer face slipped.
Before she met Ruth, Billie only felt safe expressing that hidden self while alone, indulging in solo self-destruction like excessive drinking. Ruth’s apparent bullying when they met gave her public persona permission to loosen the mask a little at first, and respond in kind. Which led to a relationship dynamic that allowed her to feel safe being the “inner Billie” with someone for the first time. Which was undoubtedly incredibly cathartic for her (especially since presenting as “okay” to the world is much more important to her than admitting she has problems of her own and seeking healthy treatment for them. After all, she says psychological treatment isn’t shameful because that’s what one is supposed to say, but inner-Billie relentlessly disparages such “weakness” and taunts herself with the implication that she herself is similarly weak, so “giving in” on that front is unacceptable), but also not terribly healthy. But the co-dependency was self-reinforcing in both directions as long as Ruth wasn’t getting treatment. They each fed on the other’s dysfunction, which produced a bond, of a sort.
But now that Ruth is getting effective treatment, she’s feeling obliged to keep the dynamic going because she knows it’s what Billie wants from her. But she also knows it A) isn’t helping Ruth’s own mental stability to force herself to act that way, B) come to realize how harmful it is for Billie to have a “safe” outlet for these impulses, as it makes it easier for her to hide from the need for real help, and C) Ruth’s actual feelings towards Billie have changed – she isn’t hate-loving Billie anymore, and pretending she still feels that way is becoming too painful to maintain.
I don’t know that that makes her a different person. I feel like it’s more that her head is above the water enough to see that it’s not healthy for either of them, and not in a salvageable way.
If the person is attracted to a person who is angry all the time, violent, and verbally nasty and then you’re…not?
Well, it will cause a problem.
Especially if you also bonded with her over recreational drinking to excess.
Max
There’s the show on TV “My 600 Pound Life.” A lot of the people on that show have low self esteem and very bad partners. One woman lost hundreds of pounds and her husband left her because “I liked you when you were fat.” People suck a lot of the time.
See, the problem is Ruth’s Canadian, and breaking up with someone up there requires them to do a lot of paperwork so they can join your League of Evil Exes.
You ever dump someone and then make their day WORSE by handing them a stack of forms to fill out?
Why does an ex have to be evil? I refuse to fit the mold your contrived and ridiculous world wants me to fit into.
My ex and I treated each other well throughout our marriage and didn’t lie to each other except when she asked me to. Eventually, she realized that I’d been right all along that she’d find someone better for her, so we got divorced, but you know, we’re still friends because there wasn’t any betrayal.
” she realized that I’d been right all along that she’d find someone better for her”
oof. I don’t know that you want to unpack that, but say you do: why did you think you weren’t good enough for her? and if so, how was this relationship ok for you? did it actually feel fair?? and… how did it make her feel to hear that you, the person she chose to marry, believe yourself to not be worthy of her?
don’t get me wrong, i fully get low self-esteem (if this is what it is, which it strongly sounds like). but i think you need to be aware of it in order to address it, both for yourself, and for the impact it has on the people around you. what do you think?
Taellosse
I don’t want to step on Ed’s toes – you may well be interpreting those words correctly – but it’s possible something else was intended than you assumed, also.
Note the key modifier at the end of the line you quoted: “…she realized that I’d been right all along that she’d find someone better for her…” Could be Ed only meant they were an imperfect fit for each other – not that she should expect to find someone “better” than Ed in a hypothetical objective sense, but merely someone that served as a better complement to her own strengths and weaknesses than Ed did. In that context, the statement isn’t self-deprecating, merely self-aware (and possibly unusually insightful).
I’m sure that’s going to be part of the salvo of vitriol Billie’s going to throw at Ruth once she breaks the news. Even if she doesn’t mean it, that just sounds like something she’d pepper in to be more hurtful.
On a side note, I accidentally flagged you while trying to hit reply on mobile with my fat fingers and I don’t know how to undo it. I am really sorry about that and hope that whoever checks that sees this. I really didn’t mean to. Having a double confirmation for flagging would help with accidental hits, but the program might not allow that. Apologies in any case.
True. Temporary medication envy, then. Definitely lessened by knowing this one doesn’t workout long-term.
Taellosse
Sometimes, “measurably better” is such a dramatic shift from baseline that it takes a while to realize how far from real, long-term stability one still is.
nooooo that’s what the mom says in every zombie movie ever and she either 1/ never comes back, 2/ comes back as a zombie and tries to eat her kids, 3/ kills a billion zombies before she finally gets back to her kids, dishevelled and soaked in blood, and saves them, the end
Yes, I do. We’re in one now. It’s actually a flashback within a flashback within a flashback within a… you get the picture.
When I wrote this comment originally, it was supposed to be a funny joke, but then when it was first a flashback, it seemed like an erie foreboding of things to come. That’s only gotten worse each time we get to the next reference to the prior reference.
Dorothy doesn’t seem like the type to get drunk when she’s got a favor to fulfill.
Maybe Billie’s the one who gets drunk (“C’mon, it’s a Halloween party! How can we *not* drink?!”) and gets angry with Ruth’s breakup, Dorothy notwithstanding.
134 thoughts on “Jack”
Ana Chronistic
“…well she isn’t NOW, so you’re good to go!”
D=
C.T. Phipps
Alternative: Ruth is asking Dorothy because they hook up after the party.
Dorothy’s Kinsey scale moves to 1 and 1 step closer to the Joyce/Dorothy ship that we’re all wanting.
Yet_One_More_Idiot
But then Ruth does not break up with Billie in this flashback…pime taradox!
thejeff
Through the course of the storyline the color gradually fades back in, the flashback continues and we never seen the post-timeskip world again.
milu
*0* that would be so cool
Yet_One_More_Idiot
That would be pretty awesome… or we see a few short strips of the original timeline beginning to collapse in on itself once events in the flashback have altered and cut that timeline off…
thejeff
It would be cool, except I’d miss a lot of the developments post-timeskip.
C.T. Phipps
My take on the subject is that Ruth is almost literally a different person with her medication. She no longer ENJOYS the anime hate-kiss-hate that Jennifer thrives on. There’s also the fact they almost nothing in common without the lesbian suicide pact. Particularly since Ruth isn’t interested in the suicide thing before.
Ironically, Billie DOES seem to stop drinking after she gets out of Ruth’s sphere.
They really were terrible for one another but the worst part is the fact that Billie was attracted to the BAD parts of Ruth and isn’t interested in the good ones.
wwwhhattt
So when she was goading Ruth into hitting her it was an “I know the woman I love is still in there somewhere” thing. I’d rather it was just Jennifer hating Ruth and demanding the worst from her, but that first take sounds depressingly believable.
audkitten
Yikes. I forgot about that
C.T. Phipps
“I know you’re still in there! You don’t have to become boring stupidheads like the rest of the world!”
“I like…reality shows and dates telling me I’m pretty.”
“Then my girlfriend is truly dead.”
Bryy
No, it was pretty much Billie demanding the worst of her. Billie needs other people to fit into the boxes that she gives them.
AlexanderHammil
also it kind of feels like there are large parts of herself that billie actively hates—the drinking, the same-sex attraction, the nerdishness—and ruth being actively antagonistic and cruel gave her license to do/be all of those things in a way a healthier relationship wouldn’t have.
Taellosse
Billie/Jennifer has 2 versions of herself that are in constant tension – the presentable, ‘popular’, helps-other-people, apparently-empathetic version she generally presents to the world; and the wildly emotional, spiteful, impulsive, often violent, and self-destructive version that she always hides, but who is also always just beneath the surface, metaphorically whispering in her ear all the nasty words, cruel actions, and dangerous behaviors she’d do if the outer face slipped.
Before she met Ruth, Billie only felt safe expressing that hidden self while alone, indulging in solo self-destruction like excessive drinking. Ruth’s apparent bullying when they met gave her public persona permission to loosen the mask a little at first, and respond in kind. Which led to a relationship dynamic that allowed her to feel safe being the “inner Billie” with someone for the first time. Which was undoubtedly incredibly cathartic for her (especially since presenting as “okay” to the world is much more important to her than admitting she has problems of her own and seeking healthy treatment for them. After all, she says psychological treatment isn’t shameful because that’s what one is supposed to say, but inner-Billie relentlessly disparages such “weakness” and taunts herself with the implication that she herself is similarly weak, so “giving in” on that front is unacceptable), but also not terribly healthy. But the co-dependency was self-reinforcing in both directions as long as Ruth wasn’t getting treatment. They each fed on the other’s dysfunction, which produced a bond, of a sort.
But now that Ruth is getting effective treatment, she’s feeling obliged to keep the dynamic going because she knows it’s what Billie wants from her. But she also knows it A) isn’t helping Ruth’s own mental stability to force herself to act that way, B) come to realize how harmful it is for Billie to have a “safe” outlet for these impulses, as it makes it easier for her to hide from the need for real help, and C) Ruth’s actual feelings towards Billie have changed – she isn’t hate-loving Billie anymore, and pretending she still feels that way is becoming too painful to maintain.
Axel
I don’t know that that makes her a different person. I feel like it’s more that her head is above the water enough to see that it’s not healthy for either of them, and not in a salvageable way.
C.T. Phipps
If the person is attracted to a person who is angry all the time, violent, and verbally nasty and then you’re…not?
Well, it will cause a problem.
Especially if you also bonded with her over recreational drinking to excess.
Max
There’s the show on TV “My 600 Pound Life.” A lot of the people on that show have low self esteem and very bad partners. One woman lost hundreds of pounds and her husband left her because “I liked you when you were fat.” People suck a lot of the time.
The Wellerman
Humans…. go fucking figure. ?
“All that is solid melts into air” indeed.
thejeff
Jennifer had already stopped drinking before this. We saw it. It was a big plot arc.
Doctor_Who
See, the problem is Ruth’s Canadian, and breaking up with someone up there requires them to do a lot of paperwork so they can join your League of Evil Exes.
You ever dump someone and then make their day WORSE by handing them a stack of forms to fill out?
Thag Simmons
“Dude, do you know how awful some of your exes were? I don’t want to be in a league with those jackasses”
Tan
Most Leagues of Evil Exes aren’t a big deal. You join the group chat, glance in when there’s a ping. Sometimes there’s a Secret Santa.
Some Ed
Why does an ex have to be evil? I refuse to fit the mold your contrived and ridiculous world wants me to fit into.
My ex and I treated each other well throughout our marriage and didn’t lie to each other except when she asked me to. Eventually, she realized that I’d been right all along that she’d find someone better for her, so we got divorced, but you know, we’re still friends because there wasn’t any betrayal.
Schpoonman
Reference to Scott Pilgrim.
milu
” she realized that I’d been right all along that she’d find someone better for her”
oof. I don’t know that you want to unpack that, but say you do: why did you think you weren’t good enough for her? and if so, how was this relationship ok for you? did it actually feel fair?? and… how did it make her feel to hear that you, the person she chose to marry, believe yourself to not be worthy of her?
don’t get me wrong, i fully get low self-esteem (if this is what it is, which it strongly sounds like). but i think you need to be aware of it in order to address it, both for yourself, and for the impact it has on the people around you. what do you think?
Taellosse
I don’t want to step on Ed’s toes – you may well be interpreting those words correctly – but it’s possible something else was intended than you assumed, also.
Note the key modifier at the end of the line you quoted: “…she realized that I’d been right all along that she’d find someone better for her…” Could be Ed only meant they were an imperfect fit for each other – not that she should expect to find someone “better” than Ed in a hypothetical objective sense, but merely someone that served as a better complement to her own strengths and weaknesses than Ed did. In that context, the statement isn’t self-deprecating, merely self-aware (and possibly unusually insightful).
Sirksome
Turns out Billie isn’t a Leafs fan. It was slowly tearing apart the relationship.
King Daniel
She did suggest once that Ruth should start wearing some Ottowa Sens stuff…
Decidedly Orthogonal
Per ByLaw 2021-24 “Procedure” Section 2 Paragraph 3, the name of the City of Ottawa, is spelled “Ottawa”.
(Kidding, this isn’t the correct legal document defining the city’s name.)
Kimi
At least she didn’t say that she completely hated hockey.
Needfuldoer
I’m sure that’s going to be part of the salvo of vitriol Billie’s going to throw at Ruth once she breaks the news. Even if she doesn’t mean it, that just sounds like something she’d pepper in to be more hurtful.
Kimi
On a side note, I accidentally flagged you while trying to hit reply on mobile with my fat fingers and I don’t know how to undo it. I am really sorry about that and hope that whoever checks that sees this. I really didn’t mean to. Having a double confirmation for flagging would help with accidental hits, but the program might not allow that. Apologies in any case.
Yumi
It takes numerous flaggings for anything to really happen to a comment. It’s not a big deal.
Kimi
Thanks. That is very reassuring.
ANeM
“You’re tearing me apart Leafas!”
The Wellerman
Ah, it’s not the Halloween disaster that leads to the breakup. It’s the breakup that leads to the Halloween disaster.
Stephen Bierce
*plays “Hellacious Acres” from the 1975 A STAR IS BORN soundtrack on the hacked Muzak*
Stephen Bierce
“–and Jack The Ripper slashing your tires!”
Yumi
Hm, I need the number to Ruth’s psych. Got medication envy.
Arian
Word.
hazel
Ruth is still changing meds, according to the convo Becky had with her post-skip, so I don’t think it lasted.
Yumi
True. Temporary medication envy, then. Definitely lessened by knowing this one doesn’t workout long-term.
Taellosse
Sometimes, “measurably better” is such a dramatic shift from baseline that it takes a while to realize how far from real, long-term stability one still is.
Taffy
Alright, I’m gonna go buy some milk. You kids behave yourselves.
Yumi
*eats all the cookies you were buying milk to go with*
The Wellerman
What kind of milk? Cow milk? Oat milk? Almond milk?
Opus the Poet
Yes? as in All of The Above.
Dean
Emergency backup supply. We’re on the dog’s milk.
DaveM
Full of vitamins. And marrowbone jelly. Plus Dog’s milk lasts longer than any other milk.
Needfuldoer
How the hell do you milk an almond, anyway?
Devin
Very carefully
King Daniel
You could grip it by the husk!
Taellosse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of1Cc64_TV8
(Yes, I know it was intended as a joke)
milu
nooooo that’s what the mom says in every zombie movie ever and she either 1/ never comes back, 2/ comes back as a zombie and tries to eat her kids, 3/ kills a billion zombies before she finally gets back to her kids, dishevelled and soaked in blood, and saves them, the end
audkitten
I’m so sorry Ruth, but yes, you are right </3
RassilonTDavros
…Ooh. This may be more interesting than the explosive blowup I was imagining.
BBCC
And here! We! Go!
This is what I wanna see! 😀 Drama train! Drama train!
justin8448
Choo CHOOOOOOO!
jeffepp
“Do you suffer from Flashback Awareness Syndrome? 41 out of 42 Doctors recommended using Retconol, when you…”
hazel
Really good naming here
Some Ed
Yes, I do. We’re in one now. It’s actually a flashback within a flashback within a flashback within a… you get the picture.
When I wrote this comment originally, it was supposed to be a funny joke, but then when it was first a flashback, it seemed like an erie foreboding of things to come. That’s only gotten worse each time we get to the next reference to the prior reference.
milu
? I got you babe ?
Nathan
I set that as my alarm for a while during the first year of the pandemic
Taellosse
“We must go deeper.
*Inception-horn*
Axel
not exactly a prediction, but an idea: dorothy gets drunk again and tells billie herself. or worse, is not drunk first
mrnoidea
Dorothy doesn’t seem like the type to get drunk when she’s got a favor to fulfill.
Maybe Billie’s the one who gets drunk (“C’mon, it’s a Halloween party! How can we *not* drink?!”) and gets angry with Ruth’s breakup, Dorothy notwithstanding.
Robbie
Aw, I feel so bad for her.
DailyBrad
Good point, alt-text.
JessWitt
Crap I forgot Lessingsworth will be no more in this storyline.
Scolopendra