It’s right after the section where they explain that God wears a blood red fursuit and flies around on a sleigh dispensing presents in return for propitiating behaviors like not stealing cookies from the cookie jar. That’s how he holds Mass for his son.
You should see the Brave Beats christmas episode… two words for ya: Pole. Dancing.
Rycan
To be fair, we do have some pretty weird mixed messages about Christmas. Is it about a fat guy in a red suit cleaning your chimney with presents, or an ancient Jewish guy getting crucified because he pissed off too many powerful people?
Captain Oblivious
Be fair. Christmas is about the /birth/ of the guy who gets nailed.
Easter is about nailing J to the cross to kill him. Then the rabbit hides his cholate eggs for the kiddies to find.
Good Friday’s about the crucifixion, itself. (Jesus: ‘WTF, guys? “Good”? Really?’)
Cc
As a child, I got black Friday and good Friday mixed up. I will never apologize for that. Most logical naming for a child
Daniel M Ball
it was work for the Judean carpenter’s union and a family-friendly show for the public, all on the Imperial denarius, you know, economic stimulus plus public entertainment at taxpayer expense. IOW it was ‘good’ for someone.
Birion
That’s because Christianity is and always has been a death cult. They don’t really care about the birth, but any good little Christian gets just a little bit hard* thinking about people dying. (Yes, I am aware that “good” in this context has the connotations of “holy” or “divine” – think “the good book” = the Bible. But my explanation is more fun.)
* Yes, hard. Christianity may not be as rabidly misogynistic as Judaism, but that’s like saying cutting your hand off with an axe is not as painful as sawing it off with a saw. The end result is still the same.
khn0
I thought it was about an ancient colonial warrior named ‘Claus defeating 3 eastern muslim knights (alternatively, saving three eastern roman officers), them being representated very small, misread as saving three kids, then being promoted protector of the children therefore giver of gifts.
Needfuldoer
In his account of his encounter with Claus, Clement Moore describes him as a tiny but fat elf. This makes the whole chimney and “eight tiny reindeer” deal make more sense.
I think Santa became human-sized after Coca-Cola bought the rights to his likeness and retconned him.
Fetch85
He was fairly human sized in the Oz books by Baum (and the life and adventures of santa claus by him as well) before Coca Cola started those ads though.
I always though that the date was chosen to be close to an already existing pagan feast, to make it easier to convert heathens.
As solstice is between December 21st and 23rd, this sounded like a thing people thinking about power would do.
Jehovas Wittnesses do not do Christmas because of this.
Agemegos
When the Julian calendar was adopted in 46 BC, the southern solstice was set to 25 December. But the Christian festivals etc. (especially Easter) weren’t fixed until the First Council of Nicaea, in 325, by which time three-ish days of drift had occurred. Then when the Gregorian calendar was introduced in 1582 it was contrived to restore the solstices and equinoxes to the dates they had been on at the time of the First Council of Nicaea. And that’s why the midwinter and spring equinox festivals (Christmas and Lady Day / the Annunciation) are off by three days.
So, early Christians figured that Jesus was conceived on the same day that he died (thus linking his conception and death), and then calculated since he was conceived in late March, he must have been born in late December? Wacky.
Agemegos
This was all linked to a presumption that the year (and day) were divinely ordained fundamental periods and that God’s acts would naturally span whole years rather than weird fractional periods. The idea that a year might be basically an arbitrary duration whose length wasn’t universally important was alien to the ancient and mediaeval minds.
Agemegos
Of course the Incarnation lasted a number of whole years. How could it not: God’s plan is perfect.
Agemegos
And of course it commenced (and therefore also ended) at the Spring solstice: 25 March.
thejeff
Given that the year isn’t arbitrary – but a natural and thus created feature of the world and that the concept of other worlds around other stars wasn’t even a fantasy yet, that’s not too surprising.
Numerology was also a thing. Numbers had significance.
Reasonably, it’s probably the Feast of Sol Invictus thing. That was a Roman holiday, and it was a Roman emperor that swapped the State religion over to Christianity. It’d make sense to just say “Okay now this big festival we’re already having? It’s Iesus’ thing now.”
funny enough, I always assumed it was moved as the various calendars were corrected, then re-corrected, and wound up being slotted with Saturnalia as a matter of convenience, since most taxation (the reason Joe and Mary were going to Bethlehem) happened in the fall after harvest, and before winter’s sledgehammer hits. (recall your nativity-they were there to pay taxes, which is also why every inn was full and they needed to rent the stable.)
Why after harvest and before winter? because that’s when there’s money, and agricultural goods and such to TAX. Mid-winter is when everyone is broke and there’s no extra food, taxing in mid-winter reduces your available live workforce for working the fields and such come spring time. (Enough people wil already starve to death or freeze without adding to the public health burden of more unburied bodies thanks to insufficient food in the remainder population). Mind the SE Mediterranean is pretty nice and Judea is in a more temperate zone for not-freezing-to-death, but starving to death is a real concern even with the long growing season.
but the doctor in the link gives a pretty solid THEOLOGICAL reason for the date being original, even if it kind of ignores the practical realities involved in when and how to levy taxation for your continental empire.
thejeff
The whole birth narrative is likely not historical anyway. It doesn’t appear in the earliest Gospel. There are discrepancies between the two Gospel narratives – to the point the motivations are completely different. The census and taxation appear in Luke, but Matthew has them fleeing Bethlehem for fear of Herod.
Roborat
Not to mention the fact that there is no roman records of a census happening at that time period, and even more important, when they did do a census, they didn’t make people return to their place of birth anyway.
Incorrect: Irish Roman Catholic here. When the eldest child of the youngest generation is less than 14 years old, you attend Christmas Eve Mass, then you return home with your grandparents in tow and have a Christmas dinner together. after the meal, everyone, elders included opens ONE present. Then you go to bed.
The next morning, the youngest generation gets up at six, goes downstairs, prepares themselves breakfast and watch whatever’s on their preferred channel at that timeslot(In my and my sister’s case, we watched the morning news as we valued routine.) When the rest of the family has awoken of their own accord, the rest of the presents are opened.
Once the eldest child of the youngest generation is over 13, the tradition is altered, as you have moved to a different state. Presents from the Grandparents are opened immediately and, in the case of video games, the box is placed under the Christmas tree with a bow taped to it, but the game disk/cartridge is allowed to exit the box for use.
Meals remain the same, although the youngest generation no longer go downstairs to eat breakfast and watch TV, instead cooking in the upstairs kitchen and watching the news in their bedrooms on their computers equipped with TV-tuner Video Cards.
Dalrint
I feel like you’re maybe confusing irish catholic with some kind of 1970s british television show about about a cult.
Khyrin
Nope. Pretty sure I was trying to insinuate that my very personal experience in life is in fact universal as a form of humor.
lungora
You have both upstairs and downstairs kitchens??
Khyrin
We moved when I turned 13. Old House was two floors above ground, all bedrooms on the upstairs floor. New house was ground floor+basement, all finished bedrooms on the ground floor.
Arquinsiel
This is “Irish Catholics in America” right? Because… uh… this is news to me.
Of course you are! On Christmas Eve, you decorate the tree, then you wait till sunset. You leave the living room for a few minutes, then a bell tinkles, and the presents are there.
The German Christkind is a lot faster than Santa Claus.
What my family has always done is that we do family presents on Christmas Eve, then first thing on Christmas Day you do Santa gifts for any sufficiently young family members, and make an obscenely big meal for everyone. And if you’re still observing, you go to mass some time in there.
I was raised Catholic, but I am given to understand that’s less a Catholic thing and more of a German/Scandanavian thing.
I’m just impressed that Joe name-dropped Y’shua as a relative. That brazen awesomeness increases Joe’s coolness in my eyes by a not-insignificant percent.
OH! Can we have a cartoon in which a Rosenthal ancestor is hanging with Historical Jesus back in early 1st century Galilee? Please!! (Btw, we have a friend who resembles Historical Jesus to a remarkable degree, so why couldn’t the Rosenthal men resemble someone from that time?)
Meh. Do Christmas how you like it.
No matter HOW you do it, SOMEbody will say you’re doing it wrong.
At least there were no red or green coffee cups involved.
I say, as long as there’s presents, it’s a successful holiday.
That, and eggnog. GOTTA have eggnog.
I’m not I’ve just accepted we probably won’t resolve this in an enjoyable or timely manner. See you next year when we *finally* have a serious conversation about mikes death
Knowing Willis? The confirmation/resolution for it will come out of nowhere right as it seems like we’re diving into another lighthearted plot arc.
You know, like how Toedad showed up at College. Or everyone getting kidnapped during a fake fire alarm. He has a thing for the whole “Reality doesn’t care if you’re ready for drama” thing.
I would expect the resolution for Mike’s death will come slowly, in a lot of small conversations which acknowledge the fact that the characters have probably already dealt with most of the immediate feelings.
193 thoughts on “Christmas”
Ana Chronistic
I thought He was the one most AGAINST it
or was that Puritans
anyway, where is Christmas in the Bible, citation needed *handslaps*
Jamie
It’s right after the section where they explain that God wears a blood red fursuit and flies around on a sleigh dispensing presents in return for propitiating behaviors like not stealing cookies from the cookie jar. That’s how he holds Mass for his son.
Agemegos
https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/11028346-3×2-xlarge.jpg
Khyrin
Oh, Japan.
Undrave
You should see the Brave Beats christmas episode… two words for ya: Pole. Dancing.
Rycan
To be fair, we do have some pretty weird mixed messages about Christmas. Is it about a fat guy in a red suit cleaning your chimney with presents, or an ancient Jewish guy getting crucified because he pissed off too many powerful people?
Captain Oblivious
Be fair. Christmas is about the /birth/ of the guy who gets nailed.
Easter is about nailing J to the cross to kill him. Then the rabbit hides his cholate eggs for the kiddies to find.
Kamino Neko
Easter is about his resurrection.
Good Friday’s about the crucifixion, itself. (Jesus: ‘WTF, guys? “Good”? Really?’)
Cc
As a child, I got black Friday and good Friday mixed up. I will never apologize for that. Most logical naming for a child
Daniel M Ball
it was work for the Judean carpenter’s union and a family-friendly show for the public, all on the Imperial denarius, you know, economic stimulus plus public entertainment at taxpayer expense. IOW it was ‘good’ for someone.
Birion
That’s because Christianity is and always has been a death cult. They don’t really care about the birth, but any good little Christian gets just a little bit hard* thinking about people dying. (Yes, I am aware that “good” in this context has the connotations of “holy” or “divine” – think “the good book” = the Bible. But my explanation is more fun.)
* Yes, hard. Christianity may not be as rabidly misogynistic as Judaism, but that’s like saying cutting your hand off with an axe is not as painful as sawing it off with a saw. The end result is still the same.
khn0
I thought it was about an ancient colonial warrior named ‘Claus defeating 3 eastern muslim knights (alternatively, saving three eastern roman officers), them being representated very small, misread as saving three kids, then being promoted protector of the children therefore giver of gifts.
Needfuldoer
In his account of his encounter with Claus, Clement Moore describes him as a tiny but fat elf. This makes the whole chimney and “eight tiny reindeer” deal make more sense.
I think Santa became human-sized after Coca-Cola bought the rights to his likeness and retconned him.
Fetch85
He was fairly human sized in the Oz books by Baum (and the life and adventures of santa claus by him as well) before Coca Cola started those ads though.
Willoughby chase
That slayed me
Ana Chronistic
blood red fursuit?
Stanistani
Ow! My eyes!
DinaJoyce
I don’t know how to do links on here so idk if anybody will be able to make this function, but here’s the general historical consensus about Christmas. Scholars never agree on anything so I’m sure somebody out there somewhere says this is nonsense but I think my profs always pointed curious students to this article. https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/how-december-25-became-christmas/
CJ
I always though that the date was chosen to be close to an already existing pagan feast, to make it easier to convert heathens.
As solstice is between December 21st and 23rd, this sounded like a thing people thinking about power would do.
Jehovas Wittnesses do not do Christmas because of this.
Agemegos
When the Julian calendar was adopted in 46 BC, the southern solstice was set to 25 December. But the Christian festivals etc. (especially Easter) weren’t fixed until the First Council of Nicaea, in 325, by which time three-ish days of drift had occurred. Then when the Gregorian calendar was introduced in 1582 it was contrived to restore the solstices and equinoxes to the dates they had been on at the time of the First Council of Nicaea. And that’s why the midwinter and spring equinox festivals (Christmas and Lady Day / the Annunciation) are off by three days.
Deanatay
So, early Christians figured that Jesus was conceived on the same day that he died (thus linking his conception and death), and then calculated since he was conceived in late March, he must have been born in late December? Wacky.
Agemegos
This was all linked to a presumption that the year (and day) were divinely ordained fundamental periods and that God’s acts would naturally span whole years rather than weird fractional periods. The idea that a year might be basically an arbitrary duration whose length wasn’t universally important was alien to the ancient and mediaeval minds.
Agemegos
Of course the Incarnation lasted a number of whole years. How could it not: God’s plan is perfect.
Agemegos
And of course it commenced (and therefore also ended) at the Spring solstice: 25 March.
thejeff
Given that the year isn’t arbitrary – but a natural and thus created feature of the world and that the concept of other worlds around other stars wasn’t even a fantasy yet, that’s not too surprising.
Numerology was also a thing. Numbers had significance.
JetstreamGW
Reasonably, it’s probably the Feast of Sol Invictus thing. That was a Roman holiday, and it was a Roman emperor that swapped the State religion over to Christianity. It’d make sense to just say “Okay now this big festival we’re already having? It’s Iesus’ thing now.”
Daniel M Ball
funny enough, I always assumed it was moved as the various calendars were corrected, then re-corrected, and wound up being slotted with Saturnalia as a matter of convenience, since most taxation (the reason Joe and Mary were going to Bethlehem) happened in the fall after harvest, and before winter’s sledgehammer hits. (recall your nativity-they were there to pay taxes, which is also why every inn was full and they needed to rent the stable.)
Why after harvest and before winter? because that’s when there’s money, and agricultural goods and such to TAX. Mid-winter is when everyone is broke and there’s no extra food, taxing in mid-winter reduces your available live workforce for working the fields and such come spring time. (Enough people wil already starve to death or freeze without adding to the public health burden of more unburied bodies thanks to insufficient food in the remainder population). Mind the SE Mediterranean is pretty nice and Judea is in a more temperate zone for not-freezing-to-death, but starving to death is a real concern even with the long growing season.
but the doctor in the link gives a pretty solid THEOLOGICAL reason for the date being original, even if it kind of ignores the practical realities involved in when and how to levy taxation for your continental empire.
thejeff
The whole birth narrative is likely not historical anyway. It doesn’t appear in the earliest Gospel. There are discrepancies between the two Gospel narratives – to the point the motivations are completely different. The census and taxation appear in Luke, but Matthew has them fleeing Bethlehem for fear of Herod.
Roborat
Not to mention the fact that there is no roman records of a census happening at that time period, and even more important, when they did do a census, they didn’t make people return to their place of birth anyway.
Joanna
Ooh, fascinating!
TemplarKnight
Oh you need to watch Kirk Cameron’s Saving Christmas. It answers EVERYTHING!
Roborat
Watching that clown trying to explain things is hilarious, my favorite is still him trying to explain how the banana was made for us.
chris2315
Wait, you’re not supposed to do the Christmas stuff on Christmas eve?
clif
Damn right. Only the heathen savages would open their presents on Christmas Eve. Show some respect.
Khyrin
Incorrect: Irish Roman Catholic here. When the eldest child of the youngest generation is less than 14 years old, you attend Christmas Eve Mass, then you return home with your grandparents in tow and have a Christmas dinner together. after the meal, everyone, elders included opens ONE present. Then you go to bed.
The next morning, the youngest generation gets up at six, goes downstairs, prepares themselves breakfast and watch whatever’s on their preferred channel at that timeslot(In my and my sister’s case, we watched the morning news as we valued routine.) When the rest of the family has awoken of their own accord, the rest of the presents are opened.
Once the eldest child of the youngest generation is over 13, the tradition is altered, as you have moved to a different state. Presents from the Grandparents are opened immediately and, in the case of video games, the box is placed under the Christmas tree with a bow taped to it, but the game disk/cartridge is allowed to exit the box for use.
Meals remain the same, although the youngest generation no longer go downstairs to eat breakfast and watch TV, instead cooking in the upstairs kitchen and watching the news in their bedrooms on their computers equipped with TV-tuner Video Cards.
Dalrint
I feel like you’re maybe confusing irish catholic with some kind of 1970s british television show about about a cult.
Khyrin
Nope. Pretty sure I was trying to insinuate that my very personal experience in life is in fact universal as a form of humor.
lungora
You have both upstairs and downstairs kitchens??
Khyrin
We moved when I turned 13. Old House was two floors above ground, all bedrooms on the upstairs floor. New house was ground floor+basement, all finished bedrooms on the ground floor.
Arquinsiel
This is “Irish Catholics in America” right? Because… uh… this is news to me.
nobilis
Of course you are! On Christmas Eve, you decorate the tree, then you wait till sunset. You leave the living room for a few minutes, then a bell tinkles, and the presents are there.
The German Christkind is a lot faster than Santa Claus.
RedCat
German efficiency.
K. Ivan Ruppert
What my family has always done is that we do family presents on Christmas Eve, then first thing on Christmas Day you do Santa gifts for any sufficiently young family members, and make an obscenely big meal for everyone. And if you’re still observing, you go to mass some time in there.
I was raised Catholic, but I am given to understand that’s less a Catholic thing and more of a German/Scandanavian thing.
Makkabee
“My birthday’s in the spring! This is Saturn’s b-day, you schmucks!”
— Y’shua F. Christ
Doctor_Who
“And don’t get me started on all the angry texts I’ve gotten from Ēostre!”
clif
Was she dressed in her nighty?
Rose by Any Other Name
I’m just impressed that Joe name-dropped Y’shua as a relative. That brazen awesomeness increases Joe’s coolness in my eyes by a not-insignificant percent.
Undrave
When’s Historical Jesus showing up then?
Khyrin
Don’t forget Mithras.
Makkabee
That’s a lot of bull.
Chris
Let’s see… ten generations back… that puts Y’shua Christ somewhere in the 18th century.
Doctor_Who
In fairness, judging by Joe and his father, Rosenthal men may just repeat generations sometimes.
clif
Time travel can get confusing.
Needfuldoer
I’ve always just assumed his paternal lineage is “Joe clones through the ages”.
Fogel
OH! Can we have a cartoon in which a Rosenthal ancestor is hanging with Historical Jesus back in early 1st century Galilee? Please!! (Btw, we have a friend who resembles Historical Jesus to a remarkable degree, so why couldn’t the Rosenthal men resemble someone from that time?)
Octopus Ink
Meh. Do Christmas how you like it.
No matter HOW you do it, SOMEbody will say you’re doing it wrong.
At least there were no red or green coffee cups involved.
I say, as long as there’s presents, it’s a successful holiday.
That, and eggnog. GOTTA have eggnog.
RedCat
No to the eggnog. Absolutely not.
Needfuldoer
It’s gotta be Hood eggnog, too. In the half-gallon carton printed in that dark tan color.
Fogel
BALTIMORE Nog!!! Even people who think that they don’t like big LOVE Baltimore Nog.
Kravis
Your WHAT now?
0kami
I was wondering when Jesus was going to show up in the DOA timeline…
katosen27
Ah, this is how he brings historically accurate Jesus into Dumbing of Age.
brute
i was thinking it too
never lose hope
Suzi
Anyone else still not over Mike? I’m just sitting here with emotional whiplash.
Jamie
I’m holding back my shock until I see a body, tbh. Or at least a gravestone.
Doctor_Who
In accordance with Mike’s wishes…
clif
Wow! It’s the deer that sells it.
Shell
I’m firmly attached to the witness protection theory, myself.
Jay
I’m not I’ve just accepted we probably won’t resolve this in an enjoyable or timely manner. See you next year when we *finally* have a serious conversation about mikes death
Wraithy2773
Knowing Willis? The confirmation/resolution for it will come out of nowhere right as it seems like we’re diving into another lighthearted plot arc.
You know, like how Toedad showed up at College. Or everyone getting kidnapped during a fake fire alarm. He has a thing for the whole “Reality doesn’t care if you’re ready for drama” thing.
showler
I would expect the resolution for Mike’s death will come slowly, in a lot of small conversations which acknowledge the fact that the characters have probably already dealt with most of the immediate feelings.
BBCC