I’d like to see Jason leave, and then Billie and Ruth come stumbling in, drunk (mistakenly thinking it is one of their rooms), and end up in a completely drunken 3way with Sal.
Of course, I only want to see that FOR SCIENCE! 😀
I would agree with you but in a number of places, a woman is legally assumed not to have agency to consent to sex when she is drunk enough but a man is in the same position.
Carriethedragon
I don’t really see why that matters. People shouldn’t be assumed to be able to consent while drunk no matter their sex or gender. If men are assumed to be able to consent while drunk, that’s not cool, but it probably has to do with the fact that they’re much less likely to find themselves being taken advantage of due to drunkenness. People shouldn’t be considered to have consented to sexual activity while too drunk to make decisions. I do think there can be an exception in some cases where established sexual relationships exist and there has bed previous communication, but otherwise it’s not cool.
Ideally the law on this subject should apply to either both or neither genders, but in a number of places, it’s not… the world is full of unfairness as you know.
Wizard
I agree that taking advantage of someone who’s clearly impaired is both unethical and criminal, but what if both parties are intoxicated? I think this kind if situation might be what Plas is referring to.
While what I am able to say depend on where this happens, the odds are that even if both parties are intoxicated, the man will be the one held accountable while the women might be able to get off with a lesser charge if not get away with it on some grounds.
Bill
So by that way of thinking, when Ryan tried to drug Joyce and have his way with her it would have been no offense because she was 18 and still had her agency. ***BUZZZZ***Â Â Incorrect, try again.
As a rule, if the subject unknowingly consumed alcohol and/or drugs then they cannot be said to have full agency, on the other hand, if they KNOWINGLY consume alcohol and/or drugs, then they are responsible for their actions eg: DUI offences.
Carriethedragon
Getting raped is something that happens to you, not something you cause. I know there’s a gray area when a drunk person initiates, but I think there is a valuable distinction here.
Rycan
The issue is what can be expected of an impaired person, not how they became impaired.
This raises an important question. If an impaired person is considered to lack the agency to provide consent, why do we assume they have the agency to decide not to drive? The distinction here is that in the former case, the impaired person is unable to take an action (provide consent). Yet in the latter case, we can still assume that the impaired person is perfectly capable of not taking an action (getting behind the wheel).
Oh, and be careful. You’re dangerously close to implying that someone who knowingly becomes impaired is tacitly consenting to having sex with anyone who wants.
begbert2
I suspect the logic behind DUIs is that you generally can’t DUI without malice aforethought – you’re responsible for taking the steps to prevent driving while drunk before you get drunk. That is, if you’re going drinking, don’t drive yourself to the bar, bring a designated driver. If you fail to take these steps and still avoid driving drunk (you notice you can’t walk straight and call a cab, or one is called for you) then good for you, but you dodged the bullet you fired at yourself.
In any case if you could show that you somebody else drugged you without your knowledge or consent, it would probably be a decent (but not perfect) defense against DUI charges.
JWLM
“Taking advantage of someone being drunk” is exploiting their loss of agency. Morally, it’s evil. Legally, it a sex crime.
We already know that Sal’s judgment is totally destroyed — think about the story she was telling at the bar to strips ago. Sex with her wouldn’t be cute; it would be wrong.
Say what? Alcohol absolutely can take away agency, in the sense of capacity to make normal judgments. I don’t know why anyone would think this doesn’t apply to consent, because it does to everything else in life.
Get a drunk person to trade their house for another beer, and even if they chose to sign the contract – even if it was their idea – when it goes to court, you’re going to find yourself out a beer.
Em
It is legally considered rape to have sex with a drunk or high individual. Is drunk sex common? Yes. Is it advisable? Absolutely not.
Havtorn
Is there a grading system, as with DUIs? Is there a certain level at which a person is considered too drunk to give consent?
‘Cause if there isn’t, shouldn’t that make sex after any date/pickup where alcohol was consumed very legally problematic?
JWLM
Sex after alcohol consumption is legally problematic. If your potential partner is not (a) clearly able to make an unimpaired decision and (b) clearly giving consent, then the best course is to just not go there. (There are grey areas, such as a case where both parties expected sex to happen after intoxication, but…well, it really is best not to depend on that.)
Rycan
Yet, it’s in place to protect people who, like Sal here, are too drunk to resist.
LookItsZee
Not having sex with a drunk person when you aren’t sure if they are capable, in their current state, of consenting is not “taking away their agency”.
If Jason was even just 25% confident that Sal is deathly allergic to peanuts, he’s not gonna put peanut butter in her food. Because, as far as he knows, there’s a non-negligible chance that what he’s doing would be *murder*.
Similarly, you can grant that *some* drunk people have enough agency to consent while still saying “in this situation, you should definitely DEFINITELY not have sex with them!” because nobody should perform an action that has a non-negligible chance of being *rape*.
Yeah, I can’t see him playing a racing game voluntarily.
I suspect he’s more into HOG games (“Spot the __!”) or puzzle games like “The Seventh Guest” (he’s a bit behind the times). I can see him playing “Myst”, but I can’t really see him on the computer as a regular thing except for work; he’s more likely to be reading a good book, I think (I was going to say “curled up with a good book” but that doesn’t seem a Jason-esque posture).
begbert2
“sitting stiffly with a good book”
Disloyal Subject
No one for Crash Team Racing? Because I think it would rather suit him. Am I the only PlayStation user here?
Or Billie finding out about Sal/Jason then driving Sal completely nuts thinking she’s found someone she can clear her mind out to about their shared “Sleeping with someone who could be fired if we’re found out” thing.
Y’know, if he wanted to be good at his profession he would’ve actually tried to help Sal on her own terms instead of demonstrably just trying the same shit over and over again.
No, he just wants to be respected. Unfortunately for him that happens to involve being good at his job, or at least better at his job than whatever random student Sal roped into helping her.
What Jason needs to do is learn how to teach someone who’s having difficulty understanding. Perhaps he will learn, if his pride will allow it.
Kryss LaBryn
How to rephrase instructions/information in a way someone else with a poorer grasp of the subject can understand isn’t always that easy. It requires the ability to think like the other person and to then decide what terms/explanation are likely to make sense; that can be surprisingly tricky; and the less someone has a grasp of the subject under discussion the trickier it is because then the metaphors have to be more general. I very occasionally at work (I do tech support) find myself saying, “Er… I’m just trying to figure out how to say this in plain English without lying to you…”
I think he does want to be good at his job, he’s just too proud to accept criticism. Sal just told him exactly what he failed to do and instead of listening he lashed out.
Discussion (164) - “Occupancy”
Jen Aside
I thought this was a booty call
Jen Aside
“white noise” as a double entendre, too
Wire Segal
He came to her room as fast as he could
talantus
maybe too fast :p
Screwball
There is medication for that… 😛
Wire Segal
There’s medication for being so aroused by a room that you come to it too fast? Who MAKES this stuff?
N0083rP00F
… I don’t know sister but it comes in Fuchsia ….
lejwocky
It’s also a great book by Don DeLillo.
Plasma Mongoose
Nope, a boozy call.
Poskie
I reeeeeeally hope this is not leading to a Slipshine….
-Sentinel-
Pretty sure Jason is too much of a gentleman to take advantage of a drunk girl.
I can’t wait for Sal to sober up.
Bill
Jason, your stock has just gone up at least ten points.
Plasma Mongoose
You will have to wait until next morning then.
Seerow
But that’s AT LEAST 2 years away in real time.
Yet_One_More_Idiot
I’d like to see Jason leave, and then Billie and Ruth come stumbling in, drunk (mistakenly thinking it is one of their rooms), and end up in a completely drunken 3way with Sal.
Of course, I only want to see that FOR SCIENCE! 😀
saltchocolate
Billie wouldn’t be mistaken—it is her room!
Jason
I’m pretty sure Willis is too much of a decent human being to use drunk-sex (generally considered rape*) to use as titillation.
(*Unless there’s a mutual and acknowledged understanding prior to inebriation that drunk sex may happen, then it gets fuzzy.)
Screwball
Yeah, I can confirm that myself. Few days ago, I made some predictions, & last few days I’ve noticed #1 is becoming more & more possible. However When I mentioned that & gave a basic run down, Mr Willis misunderstood part of it cause I’d used the wrong wording, my bad. I have reworded it, should be good now…
Mind you, since they went to HER room for her to crash in, #1 is looking a little shakey, I’ll admit that…
Kris
I think Jason’s too proper to take advantage of someone who is drunk. Unless Sal takes charge just to shut him up.
JWLM
I think that Jason is probably not a rapist. At this point, having sex with Sal wouldn’t be “taking advantage of,” it would be “sexually assaulting.”
MindLink
That’s pretty insulting towards drunk people, don’t take away a persons agency just because they are intoxicated.
Spring
You realize that alcohol can take away people’s agency right? Sales is basically passed out here. She can’t even stand.
Plasma Mongoose
I would agree with you but in a number of places, a woman is legally assumed not to have agency to consent to sex when she is drunk enough but a man is in the same position.
Carriethedragon
I don’t really see why that matters. People shouldn’t be assumed to be able to consent while drunk no matter their sex or gender. If men are assumed to be able to consent while drunk, that’s not cool, but it probably has to do with the fact that they’re much less likely to find themselves being taken advantage of due to drunkenness. People shouldn’t be considered to have consented to sexual activity while too drunk to make decisions. I do think there can be an exception in some cases where established sexual relationships exist and there has bed previous communication, but otherwise it’s not cool.
Plasma Mongoose
Ideally the law on this subject should apply to either both or neither genders, but in a number of places, it’s not… the world is full of unfairness as you know.
Wizard
I agree that taking advantage of someone who’s clearly impaired is both unethical and criminal, but what if both parties are intoxicated? I think this kind if situation might be what Plas is referring to.
Plasma Mongoose
While what I am able to say depend on where this happens, the odds are that even if both parties are intoxicated, the man will be the one held accountable while the women might be able to get off with a lesser charge if not get away with it on some grounds.
Bill
So by that way of thinking, when Ryan tried to drug Joyce and have his way with her it would have been no offense because she was 18 and still had her agency.
***BUZZZZ***Â Â Incorrect, try again.
Plasma Mongoose
As a rule, if the subject unknowingly consumed alcohol and/or drugs then they cannot be said to have full agency, on the other hand, if they KNOWINGLY consume alcohol and/or drugs, then they are responsible for their actions eg: DUI offences.
Carriethedragon
Getting raped is something that happens to you, not something you cause. I know there’s a gray area when a drunk person initiates, but I think there is a valuable distinction here.
Rycan
The issue is what can be expected of an impaired person, not how they became impaired.
This raises an important question. If an impaired person is considered to lack the agency to provide consent, why do we assume they have the agency to decide not to drive? The distinction here is that in the former case, the impaired person is unable to take an action (provide consent). Yet in the latter case, we can still assume that the impaired person is perfectly capable of not taking an action (getting behind the wheel).
Oh, and be careful. You’re dangerously close to implying that someone who knowingly becomes impaired is tacitly consenting to having sex with anyone who wants.
begbert2
I suspect the logic behind DUIs is that you generally can’t DUI without malice aforethought – you’re responsible for taking the steps to prevent driving while drunk before you get drunk. That is, if you’re going drinking, don’t drive yourself to the bar, bring a designated driver. If you fail to take these steps and still avoid driving drunk (you notice you can’t walk straight and call a cab, or one is called for you) then good for you, but you dodged the bullet you fired at yourself.
In any case if you could show that you somebody else drugged you without your knowledge or consent, it would probably be a decent (but not perfect) defense against DUI charges.
JWLM
“Taking advantage of someone being drunk” is exploiting their loss of agency. Morally, it’s evil. Legally, it a sex crime.
We already know that Sal’s judgment is totally destroyed — think about the story she was telling at the bar to strips ago. Sex with her wouldn’t be cute; it would be wrong.
Gigafreak
http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/pub_prosecuting_alcohol_facilitated_sexual_assault.pdf
The kinks in the laws are still being ironed out, but it’s preeeeetty clear that the law intends to consider “drunk people” as incapable of giving consent and therefore fucking one is actual rape.
3oranges
Say what? Alcohol absolutely can take away agency, in the sense of capacity to make normal judgments. I don’t know why anyone would think this doesn’t apply to consent, because it does to everything else in life.
Get a drunk person to trade their house for another beer, and even if they chose to sign the contract – even if it was their idea – when it goes to court, you’re going to find yourself out a beer.
Em
It is legally considered rape to have sex with a drunk or high individual. Is drunk sex common? Yes. Is it advisable? Absolutely not.
Havtorn
Is there a grading system, as with DUIs? Is there a certain level at which a person is considered too drunk to give consent?
‘Cause if there isn’t, shouldn’t that make sex after any date/pickup where alcohol was consumed very legally problematic?
JWLM
Sex after alcohol consumption is legally problematic. If your potential partner is not (a) clearly able to make an unimpaired decision and (b) clearly giving consent, then the best course is to just not go there. (There are grey areas, such as a case where both parties expected sex to happen after intoxication, but…well, it really is best not to depend on that.)
Rycan
Yet, it’s in place to protect people who, like Sal here, are too drunk to resist.
LookItsZee
Not having sex with a drunk person when you aren’t sure if they are capable, in their current state, of consenting is not “taking away their agency”.
If Jason was even just 25% confident that Sal is deathly allergic to peanuts, he’s not gonna put peanut butter in her food. Because, as far as he knows, there’s a non-negligible chance that what he’s doing would be *murder*.
Similarly, you can grant that *some* drunk people have enough agency to consent while still saying “in this situation, you should definitely DEFINITELY not have sex with them!” because nobody should perform an action that has a non-negligible chance of being *rape*.
Smiling Cat
I assume it’s a red herring. All this drunken buildup, then… BOOM… suddenly cut to Daisy finally getting relief from her dry spell.
Hugo_ebeds
With Becky?
-Sentinel-
With herself?
Screwball
With Other-Jacob’s brother or cousin at least…
Smiling Cat
Only if we get a flashback of how it happened.
DarkoNeko
Well since they met at the bar, neither really seemed to have that on their mind, to begin with, so…
Emoroffle
Is that last comment a double entendre?
Kris
He’s trying that deserves credit but he’s still kind of a c minus.
tyersome
But a D+ …
creatorx2
This guy right here http://img.pandawhale.com/51928-Troy-and-Abed-gif-aM4I.gif
AnvilPro
Jason plays Sonic Allstar Racing, he wouldn’t understand
Jen Aside
Jason strikes me more as an F1 2014 type
Kris
Naw. He rocks Diddy Kong Racing! Old school or go home!
Gigafreak
Sex is the opposite of racing games in that you probably don’t want to come first
grantimusmaximus
He hasn’t played a racing game since OutRun.
Kryss LaBryn
Yeah, I can’t see him playing a racing game voluntarily.
I suspect he’s more into HOG games (“Spot the __!”) or puzzle games like “The Seventh Guest” (he’s a bit behind the times). I can see him playing “Myst”, but I can’t really see him on the computer as a regular thing except for work; he’s more likely to be reading a good book, I think (I was going to say “curled up with a good book” but that doesn’t seem a Jason-esque posture).
begbert2
“sitting stiffly with a good book”
Disloyal Subject
No one for Crash Team Racing? Because I think it would rather suit him. Am I the only PlayStation user here?
pumacatrun2
For some reason I feel this could be leading to Sal/Jason finding out about Billy/Ruth in some way? I mean, it would make sense.
Plasma Mongoose
Almost too much sense, so not likely to happen…
Cass
Or Billie finding out about Sal/Jason then driving Sal completely nuts thinking she’s found someone she can clear her mind out to about their shared “Sleeping with someone who could be fired if we’re found out” thing.
Hoboturtle
I feel bad for Jason. He wants to be good at a profession which everyone thinks isnt worth giving a damn.
Wack'd
Y’know, if he wanted to be good at his profession he would’ve actually tried to help Sal on her own terms instead of demonstrably just trying the same shit over and over again.
No, he just wants to be respected. Unfortunately for him that happens to involve being good at his job, or at least better at his job than whatever random student Sal roped into helping her.
Norah
Danny. She got Danny to help her, IIRC.
Wack'd
I was thinking from Jason’s perspective here! He doesn’t know who Danny is!
Orbit Junkie
Danny: now demoted to nameless extra. None of us are surprised.
DarkoNeko
He wants to. He just doesn’t know how.
Rycan
What Jason needs to do is learn how to teach someone who’s having difficulty understanding. Perhaps he will learn, if his pride will allow it.
Kryss LaBryn
How to rephrase instructions/information in a way someone else with a poorer grasp of the subject can understand isn’t always that easy. It requires the ability to think like the other person and to then decide what terms/explanation are likely to make sense; that can be surprisingly tricky; and the less someone has a grasp of the subject under discussion the trickier it is because then the metaphors have to be more general. I very occasionally at work (I do tech support) find myself saying, “Er… I’m just trying to figure out how to say this in plain English without lying to you…”
Mrimm
I think he does actually want to good at his profession. He just doesn’t know how to, necessarily.
timemonkey
I think he does want to be good at his job, he’s just too proud to accept criticism. Sal just told him exactly what he failed to do and instead of listening he lashed out.
Mr. Mendo
All the pieces are slowly coming together! If only we could remember how to move the horsey…
Plasma Mongoose