Dinner music
Posted on January 12, 2022 by David M Willis

341 thoughts on “Dinner music”

  1. Doctor_Who

    Joyce: What kind of music do atheists listen to?

    Dorothy: Norwegian Death Metal.

    Joyce: Then so shall I!

    Dorothy: Wait, I was being sarcas-

    Soon.

    1. The Wellerman

      Joyce is gonna get a lot more transformations this year, I just know it.

      1. RassilonTDavros

        Soon she shall unlock the true power of Super Atheist God Super Atheist.

        1. TrueVCU

          ALL HAIL ATHE

        2. The Wellerman

          SUPER SAIYAN JOYCE!!!

        3. Amós Batista

          nice

        4. Ronnie

          So, the power of crippling self doubt as a god that doesn’t believe in itself?

        5. Sprite less Auntie

          Shall she become the Mam-Emperor of Mankind?

        6. Ferret

          Can we just shorten that to Super Atheist Blue?

    2. Thag Simmons

      Yeah I think that’s more of a Pagan thing.

      1. Doctor_Who

        I know, my original idea was to shop some corpse paint onto her, but alas I had the idea ten minutes before (the server thinks it’s) midnight, so there was no time for schmancy.

        1. khn0

          norwegian death metal with corpse paint?
          Always thought it was more a norwegian black metal thing…
          But black metal and crows, I’m not sure…
          Well whatever crows (crows is an anagramm of works, see I explained the joke now that’s the part where you laugh. Or beat someone with a burning stick).

      2. The Wellerman

        @Rose, IS this a Pagan thing?

        1. wwwhhattt

          (Not Rose but) several Norwegian Black Metal bands were and are explicitly pagan. Probably not connected to any pagans here considering the fascist undercurrents (on the Norwegian side)

        2. wwwhhattt

          Man, I’m sure that comment was coherent when I wrote it…

        3. Psychie

          Seems coherent to me, then again I tend to write in a very rambly way with lots of parentheticals, so I’m probably not the best judge. My record is having a parenthetical inside a parenthetical inside a parenthetical inside a complex sentence with both colons and semicolons and like 5 distinct clauses, and by some miracle it still managed to be grammatically correct.

        4. SeanR

          Hey, only two child branches, and not nested ones either. I found it coherent.

        5. Rose by Any Other Name

          … I think the server ate my comment.

          That or I messed up the html so badly that it got moderated.

        6. Rose by Any Other Name

          Anyway… yeah, kinda?

          My two favorite bands are Amaranthe and Within Temptation – Swedish Symphonic Death Metal and Dutch Symphonic Death Metal respectively.

          I had links before, but obviously I can’t HTML to save my life these days.

    3. Decidedly Orthogonal

      The Doctor used Norwegian Death Metal to be before Ana Chronistic. It’s super effective!

    4. Lars

      That picture is nice but more The Cure or 45Grave than Gorgoroth.

      1. khn0

        The Cure is Norwegian Death Metal at its best.

        What? Bloodflowers was produced by Ross Robinson, they effectively had a double pedal drum then.

    5. Keulen

      Joyce looks pretty badass like that.

    6. AlexaSpuds

      I cannot wait for that
      death metal Joyce is really cute, cute enough to start another “Becky crushing in her best friend” arc

      1. khn0

        Next in othing of Age:
        Becky’s christian BM band is playing for Sarah Wiccan coven, when she discovers Joyce, here former lead guitarist, has now replaced Walky Killmister in Godless Terror, Carla’s new NWOAHM band that sports, but she is at awe before the show Dina the Dominatrix puts on stage during their perfomance. Emothan’s business of Transformer’s scarifications is blooming, what makes Danny so jealous he composed a new song about selling out for his one-man-band grindcore act, a time he sould have devoted to help Sal sew a corset for the Psychobilly dance contest where Dorothy will have to rule between her and Malaya. Ruth found an abandoned mill where she has started move her furniture with the help of xJoex, the straight-edge happy dark-wave gogo dancer of Jennifer’s vampyr wannabe club…

        1. Kaiyalai

          Is this Dumbing Of Age x Metalocalypse?

        2. khn0

          It lacks a G in the title…
          See, we already got emothan, and since there’s apparently many people who have no idea what death metal is (I don’t blame them, got into too many heated discussions about music genres anyway), I told myself that emo=metal=goth=hard rock=EBM=coldwave=post punk=dark ambient=whatever is wearing black clothes.
          But no, I don’t know metalocalypse, it’s not been aired here (I had to look up what it is)

    7. heliska

      Nice! But that’s black metal attire, and Norwegians make black metal. Sweden is where the death metal’s at :3

      1. khn0

        Singapore is where the death metal’s at.
        Honestly, there’s like three metal bands in South America for one in Europe (or a half in the US), and thirteen in Asia.

    8. annarchy

      Some days I listen to Rich Mullins. The man wrote beautiful songs about love that he had for something I do not understand as an atheist. I don’t connect with them in the same rational sense anymore but that doesn’t make them less emotionally moving sounding. I think the last time I listen to Rich Mullins was a month ago actually myself and I’ve been an Atheist for years.

    9. Kirt Dankmyer

      That’s way more hot than it deserves to be.

    10. Makkabee

      This makes me indescribably happy.

    11. Wizard

      Sorry, but I gotta say it: that is insanely hot. (This is strictly my reaction. YMMV.)

    12. Chombie

      I just wanna say that Norwegian Death Metal, if taken at face value, is Christian music since it purports to believe, and support, the literal devil.

    13. JA

      This is amazing and is now my headcanon.

  2. Ana Chronistic

    cue Live as gateway

    1. Concolor44

      Huh. That girl actually looks a bit like Joyce, too.

  3. alongcameaspider

    Given the story title this is gonna somehow segue into her discovering My Chemical Romance and going full emo isn’t it?

    1. Thag Simmons

      Is Ethan’s emofication contagious?

      1. Needfuldoer

        It was among teenagers in the early 2000s.

    2. alongcameaspider

      You know I made this comment as kind of a joke but I think I’d dig a storyline where she tries all kinds of various music and other pop culture stuff she missed out on due to her incredibly sheltered childhood

      1. ThunderNight

        She’ll take it slow.
        Five-Iron Frenzy first.

        1. Dinajoyce

          That brings up a really good question. Which level of Christian bubble was her church as far as “christian” pop culture? Does she know Lincoln Park? Switchfoot? FIF? (I’m dating myself with my selection of Christian crossover bands, but there are probably some newer ones too?). In my experience, if you were a Lincoln Park and Skillet kind of Christian teen, you probably also were aware of at least like MCR and Evanescence (actually, at one point some people counted Evanescence as a Christian band). The transition wouldn’t be that difficult. We know she knows DC Talk, which was a little on the edgier end of things at one point. But Rich Mullins and Chris Tomlin seem to be her primary folks and the transition from those two to secular music is much more difficult.

        2. Rose by Any Other Name

          I’m a fuckin Pagan, and I still love Skillet and Flyleaf. Both of them make good use of metaphor to make their songs about things on multiple levels and thus open to interpretation (well, most of the time ).

          Also, you didn’t mention Flyleaf.

        3. vlademir1

          Based on a quick search and listen to both Mullins and Tomlin, I’d suggest she could find music she enjoys, and plenty she doesn’t, in the last 30 years of folk music. The real problem, at this juncture, is that Joyce has lately been in the performative antitheism phase of moving from a Christian fundie bubble to a different more open worldview of some sort, That’s a really bad headspace to find music you genuinely enjoy listening to in.

        4. Laura

          Indigo Girls, “Galileo” — lesbian tie-in for Becky to share.
          R.E.M. “Losing My Religion”.
          Joemy Wilson, “Beatles on Hammered Dulcimer”.
          I was thinking the Carter Family on mountain dulcimer, but they’re pretty religious… she’d have to get the Anna Kendrick update instead.
          Some of Johnny Cash’s covers are pretty grim & dark takes on faith and the loss thereof… “Hurt,” “Your Own Personal Jesus,” “Ain’t No Grave” (complete with the ominous sound of a chain gang: clanking chains and feet marching slowly in unison).
          That’s all I can think of for now…

        5. Laura

          Minus the het romance, I think of “Livin’ on a Prayer” by Jon Bon Jovi as being kind of a theme song for Becky…

          …I dunno, I don’t mind Becky much. I was that way most of my life. Very in-your-face about everything, enjoying making people uncomfortable, throwing lesbianism & gender nonconformity in the face of conservative Christians while still insisting on participating in Christian life… It’s a way to affirm your own will to fight for yourself in the face of those who could harm you.

        6. SeanR

          Creed. Cruxshadows.
          Well, sorta. They claim their faith, but the music is pretty secular.

  4. Laura

    Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium, Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre et Filio, ante omnia saecula, Deum de Deo, lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patri: per quem omnia facta sunt.

    Memorized it in high school for choral class — we got to sing it with the community chorus. It’s actually kinda pretty if you sing it REAL loud. You can really get into it — like a chant at a football game.

    1. Nono

      Sephiroth?

      1. Laura

        No, just the Nicene Creed in Latin. Sephiroth would be REALLY cool, though!

        1. Jamie

          I mean, Sephiroth would say the same thing.

        2. Laura

          Oh, what’s Sephiroth, then? I was thinking Sephiroth was a collection of sayings from the Kabbalah.

        3. Sol

          Sephiroth is a character from Final Fantasy 7

        4. alongcameaspider

          Specifically his boss music is pretty much what popularized the whole “ominous Latin chanting” trope for final boss music

        5. Laura

          Oh, cool!
          But I think ominous Latin chanting was around much earlier. O Fortuna, from Carmina Burana, by Carl Orff, pretty much wrote the book on ominous Latin chanting for battle music.

        6. Agemegos

          @Laura John Boorman and Trevor Jones made early use of Carmina Burana in the excellent 1981 movie Excalibur. But was it “final boss music”?

        7. Delicious Taffy

          Considering “One Winged Angel” apparently takes at least some of its lyrics directly from “O Fortuna”, it most certainly is final boss music. The words are in Latin, and are generally about how Sephiroth himself is an axe-crazy murderer, with later versions adding in bits about him refusing to stay dead or “just a memory”. The strings are also influenced by the signature sting from Psycho, mixed with heavy metal guitars for that extra punch. The composer basically went buckwild with that particular song.

        8. Yotomoe

          Sephiroth is a Prominent Villain from the acclaimed video game Final Fantasy VII. His theme song, “One Winged Angel”, is infamous for having a chorus of people chanting in (presumably faux) latin culminating in them shouting “SEPHIROTH”. Nono’s joke was poking fun at the idea of a long stream of latin culminating in chanting “Sephiroth”.

        9. thakoru

          I assume they’re referring to this:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4UDSVTNL3M&ab_channel=Pankratous

        10. Leorale

          Hahaha, Sephirot (se-fee-ROAT) are indeed a Kabballah thing — the various aspects of God, mystically connected with each other. You and I are not technically supposed to know about such mystical Jewish subjects, but luckily we’re too ignorant for such information to endanger us, so, we’re fine.

          I’m 100% sure the Final Fantasy baddie, Sephiroth, was named after them.

        11. Delicious Taffy

          Oh, he’s 200% intentionally named for that, which is made even more obvious with his “mother” being named Jenova (a combination of “Jehova” and “Nova”, to more or less mean “New God”) and him acting as her physical incarnation during the game’s events. Those Japanese folks do enjoy a bit of religious imagery and symbolism in their RPGs.

        12. The Wellerman

          Yeah, Japanese RPGs and even anime like Evangelion like using Christian imagery in particular because Christianity is not really popular in Japan and just seems mystical and spooky to them, much akin to how we view allusions to Shinto-Buddhism in shows like Power Rangers.

        13. Rose by Any Other Name

          @Leorale: Ah! Yes, indeed. This entire conversation – from latin chants to Final Fantasy to Jewish mysticism – is why I love Judeo-Christian mythology so much. It’s so neat!

          Although, for me personally, the ultimate JRPG usage wasn’t FF7 but Xenogears, it’s sibling game. Seriously, if you like this sort of thing and also like classic JRPGs, try to find a ROM of it or something because it is my favorite video game ever.

        14. darkgloomie

          @The Wellerman the stuff in Power Rangers is mainly because Saban (and then Disney for a while) bought footage from Japanese Super Sentai shows, alters the scripts, redubbed the fighting and replaced the non-fighty parts (and sometimes adds fighty parts itself; they need the costumes anyway for the scripts to make sense).

          I wouldnt put Japan’s use of pop-culture Christianity and Judaism on the same llevel, since Power Rangers are at least partially Japanese. Though there are plenty of other things full of “cool Orientalism”. Mostly older stuff.

        15. Yotomoe

          While we’re on the topic of badass Boss themes, Porky really means business.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4z82byt5mA

        16. The Wellerman

          Seriously though, I can think of nothing that could compare to Hush’s theme from The Binding of Isaac —

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2UqIiPDtys

        17. alongcameaspider

          I like Dogma’s boss music from Binding of Isaac, nice creepy religious vibes

          https://youtu.be/bQp2ylaedn4

        18. Yotomoe

          Well it feels like cheating but “It has to be this way from Metal Gear Rising” fucking SLAPS.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYAPgPH9hsI

        19. Delicious Taffy

          Oh, are we doin’ sick boss themes? Then I gotta throw in one of the best video game tracks, which somehow comes from one of the worst games out there. Solaris Phase 2 has no business being as good as it is.

          https://youtu.be/qAx3hTZeyBw

        20. Spencer

          You’ve heard of raw af boss themes now get ready for raw af random battle themes

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P3hJZ_FpwM

          (Joyce would love Shin Megami Tensei, as they are exclusively about killing God with swords)

        21. thakoru

          I mean if we’re just on cool final boss fight music now, I’d be remiss not throw in The Sun Rises from Okami, possibly my favorite track from anything ever.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya3yxTbkh5s&ab_channel=VulgusBangaa

        22. Dave

          I prefer the original Binding of Isaac music, myself. https://youtu.be/0RMnjL6X2gg

      2. Spencer

        I’m pretty sure I’m only awake right now to laugh at this.

    2. Laura

      Christian contemporary is actually kinda fun. DC Talk, Jars of Clay, Imagine Dragons, Pentatonix… there’s a lot of different musical styles out there, with a range of messages. It’s not all just a monolith.

      1. 80-watt Hamster

        Imagine Dragons? Ferreal?

        1. Laura

          Mormon.

    3. davidbreslin101

      It’s been a couple of decades since I sang in a choir. But I was always entertained by how so many settings of the Ordinary of the Mass have an extra-dramatic moment on “Sub Pontio Pilate.” Cue bad-guy music!

  5. AbacusWizard

    Lyrics aside, hammer dulcimer *is* an awesome musical instrument.

    1. Reltzik

      I dunno, it just never struck a chord with me.

      1. davidbreslin101

        😀

    2. Bluewind

      Today I learned that two police officers got fired due to ignoring a dispatch call (robbery in progress, thankfully another cop got on it) because they were driving around playing Pokemon GO! They were caught on their dashcam (they forgot was there) ignoring dispatch while hunting a Snorlax for 20 min. Later when they had their chonky boi, they drove after a Togetic. They tried to spin it as not a game, but a “social media event” where you “monitor a tracker” to “capture an image” of a “mythical creature”. Meanwhile I’m laughing my ass off imagining the shade that would be practically RADATING off Amber/Amazi-Girl and had to share it with you guys XD

      1. Bluewind

        Oops! How did that post there!? O_O

      2. temporaryobsessor

        To me its the fact that they either weren’t paying attention or the fact that they ignored a call for a trivial reason thats the real problem. Heck, with the chance of injury, because people are not paying attention, or robbery because people know there will be people not paying attention at those spots it might be a good idea.

    3. StClair

      Agreed.

  6. misanthropope

    omygod, it’s just so adorable how unapologetic she is.

  7. Derek

    does Becky literally not know how to communicate with people in ways other than antagonizing them?

    1. Diane

      No, because she’s a horrible person that has yet to learn to accept that not everything is her way.

      1. Joyfulldreams

        I mean that’s uncharitable as fuck. You’d think that maybe after BECOMING AN ORPHAN and everything that involved, Beck is WELL ACQUAINTED with things not going her way. And perhaps, her acting like this is specifically because she doesn’t like feeling that way, and wants to project or manufacture control?

        I’m normally on Joyce’s side here but this is genuinely so unnecessarily cruel towards Becky I really gotta put my foot down.

        1. -

          Put your foot down if you see fit, but… most of Becky’s interactions show her to be, well, a pretty horrible person, who… tries to make other people do things “her way” or not at all, so, yeah. No-one’s saying she hasn’t suffered, but she’s basically mostly a jerk a lot of the time.

        2. Diane

          Basically as the person above said, just because horrible shit happened to you doesn’t give you a free pass to be horrible right back. Becky is always terrible, and this is just continuing to prove I will never like her. She disregards everyone else’s trauma because hers is more important. And it’s not a new thing, she got mad because “you had parent trouble for 30 minutes Joyce, I had it for years! Get over it!” Like everyone is made of the same stuff she is. Honestly, at this point if I was Joyce, I’d burn the bridge and take my mac and cheese to my room. Since Becky is kindly giving the flamethrower.

        3. Joyfulldreams

          I HARDLY said that it gives Becky an excuse. It doesn’t. But the idea that she somehow has not experienced enough hardship and needs to ‘learn that things dont go her way’ is ridiculous. What she needs is to have the people around her actually set proper boundaries with her and not just let her get away with whatever. To be told “no”.

        4. Diane

          She’s been told no. She don’t care. She literally was just told “I will not change my belief, I am not Christian, you will not change me” and she does this. And where did I say she did not have hardships? I have never said that. Don’t twist my words for your narrative.

        5. SIippy Slidey

          I feel like this is a common excuse to use in situations like this and lately I’ve been more on Becky’s side, but this was just unnecessary. Becky’s series of unfortunate events do not negate or override Joyce’s. Even then, Becky has always been like this. Dorothy has been kind, friendly, and understanding to Becky and Becky always snipped away at her for no real reason. The shit Becky has gone through doesn’t suddenly make her behavior alright.

        6. thejeff

          The same is true for Joyce.

          Neither of them is coming of well in this conflict – even if Becky’s the problem in today’s strip.

    2. Slartibeast Button, BIA

      She was raised to be meek and compliant all the time, so she is snapping to the opposite extreme now.

      1. alongcameaspider

        I suspect the way things will go is Joyce tries to stay civil to not upset Dorothy while Becky continues her passive aggressive shtick until Joyce finally snaps and blows up at Becky

        1. Bryy

          Yeah, it’s Dorothy’s turn to get upset. Which is probably going to lead to Becky blurting out something really stupid about athiesm.

      2. Needfuldoer

        Which one?

      3. thejeff

        And completely unlike Joyce, that is entirely her fault and she must be condemned, while we must sympathize with Joyce’s struggles and not judge anything she says or does.

        That said, yeah this is a pretty obnoxious move. The most positive way to look at it might be that she’s trying to Joyce of things she liked about her Christian upbringing, but even that’s damn pushy at this stage.

    3. RassilonTDavros

      …it took me until reading this comment to realize that the direction of the text bubble in Panel 1 meant Becky was saying that line. Well now I feel super dumb for starting to write a comment in Becky’s defense.

      seriously becky what the hell

      1. Thag Simmons

        Look we aren’t wrapping this drama up in a single chapter. It’s going to take at least the rest of the book

      2. Savail

        Ditto. I thought it was either really sweet or a really REALLY weird power move/flex (look how more mature I am than you nyeah nyeah) on Joyce’s part to put Christian music on, and I couldn’t work out which it was with their expressions and ensuing dialogue.

        Then I read that comment and felt really really dumb upon realizing it was, in fact, neither.

      3. Keulen

        I thought it was Joyce picking that music at first too, and was confused. Now I see it’s just Becky being a jerk to Joyce again, except more passive aggressive this time.

      4. Needfuldoer

        The 180 degree rule must be obeyed.

    4. Reltzik

      We know that she does. Example: Dina.

      … But not not with Dorothy. And now not with Joyce, it appears.

      1. RassilonTDavros

        plot twist, Dina overhears this conversation and gets pissed at Becky for dissing atheists

        1. alongcameaspider

          This is exactly how I’m expecting Becky’s passive aggressiveness to blow up in her face

        2. Needfuldoer

          Same.

        3. Diane

          Oh please let it be so…

        4. Reltzik

          Nah, Dina gets pissed about attacks on evolution, not attacks on atheism. She’d just ask some succinct questions getting to the core of things instead, and the core of it is that Joyce has gone into a fairly anti-theist route in her atheism.

          And/or the core is that, unlike Dina, Joyce is an apostate, which is by far the worst type of atheist. But, hey, she can’t be an apostate if she was never truly a Christian in the first place. (/scathingly mocking sarcasm)

          Okay, Becky is likely not going that route. Possible, but not likely. Probably not likely. Possibly not likely. …. crap.

        5. alongcameaspider

          Looking back both Dina and Becky show… not quite disdain but dismissiveness of the others beliefs behind each other’s back

          Dina has refered to Becky’s God as a “fictional character” at least once and Becky did that whole “lol Dina’s gonna be so pissed when she goes to heaven”

          Honestly thinking about it their relationship seems to be a ticking time bomb and Joyce losing faith may make the ticking get faster (I can’t help but notice Becky hasn’t talked to Dina on screen since the argument, granted it’s only been a day in universe)

        6. Reltzik

          You might be right.

          I’m reminded of a comment I made way back in the first (in-comic) day after the time-skip. Becky had been going on about how awesome her life was now, how she was now really in college and with an awesome girlfriend and her best friend in Christ and etc etc. I basically said: “Uh-oh. This is basically Act I of DoA Season 2. We’ve got a main character going on about how awesome her life is… in the middle of Act I. This isn’t going to be pretty.”

          Well, I think maybe Joyce accidentally outing herself to Becky was the first plot point, and no, it’s not going to be pretty.

        7. Joyfulldreams

          I don’t see how Dina referring to Becky’s god as a fictional character is dismissive? In fact I think that’s one of the healthiest ways Dina could really interpret it. Like, she doesn’t share Becky’s beliefs, so she’s never going to just pretend to act as if god is real. But she still understands that those beliefs are important to Becky, so as far as Dina is concerned Becky’s god is a fictional character her girlfriend adores.

          Becky’s comment is maybe slightly more dismissive but still…not really? Like. It’s literally just them having their own beliefs that are different from their partners. How is that dismissive? Becky genuinely thinks heaven is real, so as far as she’s concerned, Dina WILL probably be surprised when she learns about it. Dina genuinely thinks god is NOT real, so she understands that Becky’s idea of god as essentially a fictional character.

          Like, if not like this, what exactly is the NOT ‘dismissive’ way of regarding their partner’s beliefs while still maintaining their own? Or do you just think that it’s impossible for two people who don’t share belief systems to maintain a relationship?

        8. CayceCayceCayce

          The respectful way to talk about it would be along the lines of “I don’t and probably will never understand, but it’s important to my partner, so I won’t equate their deeply held sincere beliefs with a fictional character.”

          I’ve been atheist basically my whole life and yet I know it’s rude to call someone’s god a fictional character.

    5. David Doty

      After how awful Joyce was earlier in this storyline, I’m happy to see the moral high ground evening out, even if it’s just a little. I’ll be more into the inevitable reconciliation if they both have stuff to work on.

    6. Delicious Taffy

      She played one song, come on now. She’s generally a horrid little goblin child, that’s not in dispute, but this barely even registers as mischief, let alone antagonism.

      1. Spencer

        It’s less antagonism and more that Becky’s trying to hastily return to status quo.

        Which was antagonistic.

      2. alongcameaspider

        I mean her face in panel 2 shows she knows exactly what she’s doing

      3. Bryy

        She’s playing it expressly to piss Joyce off.

  8. Yotomoe

    Unlike Poor Mullins who is actually incredibly atheistic.
    Though actually he mostly makes music about how much he hates Rich Mullins which is why he probably doesn’t sell as much.

    1. powerpowerpow

      Poor Mullins sounds like an incredible band name. Honestly take the name of any musician whose name contains the name Rich and swap it out with Poor.

  9. John Campbell

    Try Frank Turner — “Glory Hallelujah”.

    1. Reltzik

      Great choice.

      Maybe some old-school hippie options too — Lennon’s Imagine, Holy Near’s I Ain’t Afraid…

      … but most of it’s going to be punk and/or metal.

  10. butting

    walks into music shop–

    “I want to learn the hammered dulcimer, can you help?”
    “Sure can! We can sell you one right away, and then we’ll need to go down to the pub and order half a dozen pints each.”
    “How come?”
    “That’s the quickest way to become a hammered dulcimer player.”

    ba-doomp *pish*!

  11. Robbie

    Oh hai PTSD trigger

  12. Slartibeast Button, BIA

    The problem with finding Atheist Church Music is, well, you know…

    1. Laura

      Well, that song, “Take Me to Church” by Hozier is kind of close.

      1. Thag Simmons

        The song that takes the “I want to fuck jesus” vibes of some christian music and just makes that explicit

        1. The Wellerman

          Wonder if Joyce’d be into Ridiculon…

        2. Delicious Taffy

          Haha talk about “God head”, am I right?

          No really, am I? I don’t know enough about the terminology to be sure if that joke scans. I’m aware of a “Godhead” and that “head” refers to oral sex. Is that enough to make the joke funny? Do I get my Reddit Gold now?

        3. The Wellerman

          I don’t get it.

        4. Delicious Taffy

          Jesus swallowed for your sins, is what I was trying to get at.

        5. The Wellerman

          Jesus and YouTube’s censorbots can both suck my octagon!

        6. temporaryobsessor

          Great now I’m thinking of that Southpark episode where Cartman makes a Christian Rock band.

    2. Reltzik

      Atheists don’t have no songs.

      1. Reltzik

        Trying that again:

        Atheists don’t have no songs.

  13. Stephen Bierce

    *looks in after a Hotfix download*
    *sees nothing that needs to be done*
    *goes on to work on other things*

  14. Kravis

    Based ONLY on the name, Joyce should really give Three Days Grace a try, BWA-HAHAHAHA!

  15. Robbie

    I used to have panic attacks when hearing any ccm and my spouse would play ccm in the car because he still believed and driver controls the radio and he wouldn’t let me drive. Not like I had any music to switch it to anyhow. Being trapped in a moving vehicle with music that triggers panic attacks is NOT GOOD.

    1. Laura

      Yeah, wow, that sucks! So sorry you had to go through that! Yuck!

    2. The Wellerman

      I’m so sorry to hear that Robbie! That must have been awful!

      1. Robbie

        Thanks y’all. It did suck.

        I’ve healed a lot but I had a stressful day today and I guess it makes some of the triggers I thought were less triggery now feel pretty bad again.

        1. The Wellerman

          Me too ?

        2. Laura

          Well, we’re here with you. This is a happy friendly comment section, most of the time, and I’m super happy you’re here.

        3. Laura

          Not that you have to be happy. I just mean you are welcome here no matter how you feel.

        4. Robbie

          Random fun fact about myself: I have played on the same piano Rich Mullins sometimes wrote music on. When my pastor lived in TN they were friends with him (he didn’t say much,they said, but he sometimes used their piano), then they and the piano moved to AR, and I doodled around on it a few times when we went to their house.

        5. Laura

          Cool!

    3. JBento

      Did… did your spouse know?

      1. Robbie

        So, you ever know anyone who didn’t recall very important details you told them repeatedly because it would make them look bad to themselves? Like just so much denial?? It was that.

    4. Rose by Any Other Name

      That wasn’t very nice of your spouse. Both the dictatorial music control and the not letting you drive. I hope you and your spouse eventually talked about that and worked out a more fair situation.

      1. JBento

        Holy shit, my train of thought crashed so hard from “my spouse repeatedly played music that triggered my panic attacks” that I completely failed to notice the “wouldn’t let me drive” part, but you’re right! O_o

        1. RassilonTDavros

          …yeah, that part really ought to have been a red flag, oughtn’t it.

          Hell, using the panic attacks as a distraction from the underlying “won’t let me drive” problem might well have been a conscious part of his strategy.

        2. JBento

          They sure as hell distracted ME, and I wasn’t the one having them.

        3. Rose by Any Other Name

          … I mean, I am hoping, for Robbie’s sake, that this was a failure of communication and not outright malice.

          The ‘driver picks the music’ thing tends to stem from College when people of clashing tastes go on a road trip together, so that might just be habit.

          As to the ‘won’t let me drive’ – my Mom won’t let my Dad drive because his driving makes her carsick. Even when she was having chemotherapy, she insisted on driving to and from the hospital. So again, there MIGHT be some reasonable explanation… might. Only Robbie can tell us for sure, assuming that Robbie wishes to do so.

        4. Robbie

          I communicated just fine, it was just more important to him to have things his way, best case scenario. Worst case, he was manipulating me and intentionally triggering me because he hated that I deconverted. Well, he did hate that I deconverted. He deconverted eventually too.
          Actually I really really hate driving and have severe anxiety about it but would offer to sometimes for various reasons – like he was exhausted or planning to eat while driving and I already ate – and partially because if I never drove my anxiety got worse. He just …well, he had to control everything. If he was in a car he was driving the car. If he was in a play, he wrote, produced and started in the play.if he was helping with anything, he’d take over. That’s gotten better, because I developed boundaries, lol. I don’t drive anymore though; we moved to a big city where my anxiety is horrible just riding in a car. Im working on soooo many other things in therapy and there are buses here… Maybe later.
          Um, sorry, it was really rough and he was pretty controlling and overtly abusive in a lot of ways – picture joyces older brother I guess… We’re still married. We’re working on it. Mostly him now. I issued relevant ultimatums. Boys in that culture are explicitly taught to be abusive husbands, neither of us had any inkling that it wasnt ok, at first. I mean, I figured it out before him. Go figure. I wish he hadn’t been ok hurting me. Still not sure if I can get over that.

    5. Andy4Hire

      Wow, I’m sorry to hear about that, Robbie. But I’m glad you’re talking about it in the past tense, and I hope you’re now in a better relationship situation, whatever that might mean for you.

  16. thakoru

    Huh. I was raised Catholic, and I kind of assumed the Creed was a specifically Catholic thing. Maybe because it has the word “catholic” in it, even though I know from Sunday School that it means something else in this context.

    1. Robbie

      Rich Mullins was very interested in catholicism

      1. thakoru

        To be clear, I did do a quick trip to Wikipedia to confirm that, no, the Creed is not a specifically Catholic thing.

    2. RassilonTDavros

      Grew up Presbyterian– can’t speak for everybody, but I was taught that “catholic” with a lowercase “c” meant “universal” or “worldwide,” and that that’s what it meant in that context. No idea if the info I got was on the level or not, naturally.

      1. thakoru

        Useful life tip, if you’re not sure whether something you heard/were taught is actually true, Wikipedia usually has the answers (though do be sure to check the sources; Wikipedia’s great but not perfect). In this case:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Marks_of_the_Church#Catholic

    3. Agemegos

      Well, there are several creeds. The most common one is the Nicene Creed, which was issued in 381 as a revision of the earlier Creed of Nicaea, which was produced by an Ecumenical Council in 325. They predate not only the Reformation but the Great Schism, and they are widely accepted both in Orthodox Christianity and in the Catholic/Protestant family of Christianties. Only radically revisionist Christianities such as the Quakers, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the American Restoration Movement do not use the Nicene Creed.

      1. Laura

        I like that: “radically revisionist”. Yes, that’s how I was raised. Radically revisionist.

      2. Dinajoyce

        The Apostles Creed is also pretty widely accepted (and I think that’s the one in the song).

        To add to your list of groups that don’t accept the creeds, the Mormons (LDS) are a big one. They’re non-trinitarian and the creeds are pretty big on the trinity.

        1. Andy4Hire

          Yup, as best I can tell, that’s correct: the song is based on the Apostles’ Creed. And yeah, pretty much every Protestant church I’ve encountered has used both the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds, albeit at different times and with different frequencies.

    4. Delicious Taffy

      Creed are the ones responsible for that “With Arms Wide Open” song, right?

      1. SeanR

        Yes

    5. dn

      Sometimes Protestant service books will edit the word “catholic” to just “Christian” with the original wording scrupulously retained and explained in a footnote. That’s how it was with the Lutherans I grew up with. Still, basically all mainstream Christians use the Creed, which after all is way older than the Reformation.

      What is sillier is the ridiculous polemics some people have constructed around the words “I believe…” versus “We believe…” In the original 4th century Greek form of the Creed, it says “We”; in the Latin translation it says “I”. But some Protestants insist upon using only “I believe…” because they think that individualism is theologically important and that it is virtual heresy to make a collective confession of belief. Most of these people have no idea that “We” is the original.

  17. Regalli

    Excellent! Conflict is still happening and the Becky Being Unreasonable stage has begun, in front of Dorothy no less who will hopefully start recognizing now WHY the Joyce-Becky issue can’t be resolved that simply and why Joyce losing her faith is maybe such a traumatic thing.

    1. alongcameaspider

      I’m glad she seems to immediately realize this is Becky being passive aggressive here

    2. Wraithy2773

      I don’t think Dorothy was really under any actual belief that the Joyce/Becky situation could be resolved simply. It just couldn’t be resolved at all if the two weren’t able to be in the same room and moderately civil towards each other for 30 seconds before insults started to fly.

      There’s more that needs to be done (and Becky is abso-fucking-lutely acting like an ass here), but it’s still progress.

      1. Regalli

        I don’t think she and Sarah had quite comprehended yet the degree to which Becky would take ANY Joyce Losing Faith as a personal betrayal, and they didn’t witness the fight to see just how ugly it got and how much of it wasn’t about what Becky walked in on but the two of them never understanding they experienced faith differently all along. So far Dorothy’s been focused on the ‘Joyce is behaving really shittily if she wants to keep Becky as a friend’ aspect, and fair enough because Joyce IS, but I suspect if she had witnessed the actual argument she would have started working on Becky’s insecurities and trauma before trying to push a ‘fix this’ conversation. Now BECKY’S behaving really shittily if she wants to keep JOYCE as a friend!

        1. StClair

          Oh, they’re both perfectly willing to be friends. Just as soon as the other admits she was Wrong and comes over to their side. 😛

        2. Shanunu

          This is the part that annoys me. The argument somehow ended up about being trying to convert people’s belief systems. I guess for them it was always gonna be that way, but if I was Becky I think I would be more mad about walking into a room and having my friend mocking me with a stranger. Priorities, I guess? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        3. thejeff

          Sometimes when you hit a situation like, where the first move is aggressive it just serves to harden your own stance. Maybe Becky would have been just as insistent on Joyce returning to the fold under any circumstances, but starting the discussion like that could also have pushed her to a point where she’s not willing to concede anything.

        4. SeanR

          Yeah. What do you know. People’s positions can be “work hardened”.

    3. Keulen

      I’d like to hope that happens, but so far Dorothy has seemed to be more interested in keeping the peace than actually trying to understand why Joyce has been acting the way she has recently.

      1. Spencer

        Dorothy suffers an unfortunate case of tragic whiteness, and so any expression of anger and discord outside her parameters is the true antagonism.

  18. Ty34er

    She can start with LEGO Rock Band. Unironically the best song selection in the franchise IMO

  19. Jude

    Sucks that the lyrics totally take me out of the tune, ’cause I was actually grooving along until then.

    1. The Wellerman

      Same here.

      I just do what I also did with the Meta TV commercial — take out the good stuff and forget there’s something else that goes with it.

  20. Bagge

    Ladies

  21. BBCC

    I misread this last night. I thought it was Joyce putting on the playlist and calling Becky’s attention to the fact she’d put music on that would appeal to her. I was gonna say ‘Who wants to bet that this is the same play list from Joyce’s dorm party?’

    ….I mean, Becky planned that so it still MIGHT be, I guess, but y’know, bigger fish to fry at the moment.

    1. BBCC

      And never mind, that was in fact Christian music that got played on secular radio.

  22. Dr. T

    Alright, in their spat Joyce was being the asshole but Becky’s being a passive aggressive duck about it despite the apparent truce.

  23. Thag Simmons

    Last panel Becky seems a little surprised by the “I don’t know any non-christian music” admission

    1. Needfuldoer

      Becky was the subversive kid, sneaking out of the house and “accidentally” getting glue in her hair. By contrast, Joyce always fell in line and did what she was told.

      Hopefully she’ll take this as another piece of the “why is Joyce so absolute about religion” puzzle.

      1. thejeff

        I don’t believe that any “subversive” music Becky liked she didn’t play for Joyce.

  24. Bluewind

    Today I learned that two police officers got fired due to ignoring a dispatch call (robbery in progress, thankfully another cop got on it) because they were driving around playing Pokemon GO! They were caught on their dashcam (they forgot was there) ignoring dispatch while hunting a Snorlax for 20 min. Later when they had their chonky boi, they drove after a Togetic. They tried to spin it as not a game, but a “social media event” where you “monitor a tracker” to “capture an image” of a “mythical creature”. Meanwhile I’m laughing my ass off imagining the shade that would be practically RADATING off Amber/Amazi-Girl and had to share it with you guys XD

    1. BBCC

      How did they think that sounded any better? ???????

      1. Bluewind

        I DON’T KNOW! They were just like we weren’t TECHNICALLY playing a game so like… no rules broken yeah? Judge was like yeah… no. So now they are threatening to take it to the California Supreme Court and I’m over here like THE HOLE IS DEEP ENOUGH YOU CAN STOP DIGGING NOW! O_O

        Meanwhile, other cops (I think it was even the same department, but both were in California) saved a dude when his plane crash landed on train tracks, dragging him away just before the train hit his plane.

    2. alongcameaspider

      Amazing how we get accountability here easily but when they shoot an unarmed black kid they fight accountability tooth and nail

      1. Bluewind

        Cameras force accountability for everything. Things that used to be swept under the rug. This funny story could have EASILY turned tragic on the wrong day. I’ve heard about plenty of it from both sides and I honestly think that cameras (on top of all the attention and accountability placed on police that wasn’t there even a couple years ago) will force changes in both the people and infrastructure of the police force.

        1. Joyfulldreams

          I mean. Except they kind of barely do, really, even when you have literal footage of the cop doing the murder and dozens of eye witnesses, anyone actually facing any consequences whatsoever is still not even remotely guaranteed. Let alone the consequences actually being proportional to the crime of, yknow, murder. So like….idk man.

        2. Delicious Taffy

          What country are you living in where people see camera footage of shitty behavior and don’t immediately double down on calling the camera person a liar? Can I emigrate there?

        3. Keulen

          Sadly, cops in this country often still get away with doing terrible things even when there is camera footage of them doing it.

      2. thejeff

        Because playing games in their car isn’t what cops are supposed to do. The excuses aren’t built into the system.

    3. Yotomoe

      I just feel bad for the writers of Brooklyn 99 because they’ll never write anything that fucking funny.

      1. alongcameaspider

        At least the show ended before they could try (or is it still on, last I heard it was only getting 1 more season)

        1. Yotomoe

          I think their last season hasn’t aired yet? Or maybe it has. I was never all plugged into it really.

        2. JBento

          I’m pretty sure season 8 was the last one? If not, someone please correct me IMMEDIATELY!

        3. David M Willis

          B99 is over.

        4. JBento

          Yeah, that’s the idea I had.

          Thanks.

        5. alongcameaspider

          I knew season 8 was the last one I just didn’t know if it had aired yet or not

      2. Bluewind

        I have never watched Brooklyn 99 or had the urge to, but this comment has singlehandedly made me curious. I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing! O_O

        1. JBento

          WAAAAAAAAATCHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

        2. Rose Red

          I hope this piques your curiosity further!

          https://youtu.be/58bRNmxUSUg

          I would recommend you at least give it a try. (There’s usually a lot less singing.) It’s a lot of fun. I’m happy it ended before it could become too much of a parody of itself, and the later seasons started to feel weaker to me (haven’t seen the last season). For me it scratches a similar itch as Parks and Rec.

        3. Bluewind

          Omg! I’ve HEARD this before. It was used in an aniatic. Okay. goodjob on the bait.

        4. Roborat

          You should at least give it a try, it has a different type of humour, and if it works for you, it is very funny. And if nothing else, getting to see Terry Crews in action is worth it.

  25. Reltzik

    Okay, more serious topic than the music here… or maybe a more serious aspect of the music…

    Panel 6 Joyce. I don’t think that’s just a throwaway joke about haha how sheltered Joyce was, or even a lone-violin-playing moment to pity her for how insular her cult was. That’s a real NEED there. She needs to reconstruct her identity around the fact that she’s no longer religious, because so much of her identity was tied to religion and now it’s torn to shreds, and she doesn’t know of any of the things she can replace it with.

    If anything, I’m reminded of Becky after she first came out diving head-first into EVERY aspect of declaring herself a lesbian. Not just shouting it out every ten seconds, but the haircut, the clothes, finding a girlfriend within the first week…

    Joyce needs something like that. And Becky’s the person who’s probably in the best position to recognize it and help… except she won’t, because it’s right in a big blind spot of Becky’s awareness, and even if it weren’t Becky’s opposing this change rather than helping it.

    1. The Wellerman

      I couldn’t have said it better myself ?

    2. Imogen

      This just further supports my baseless conviction that Joyce is going to impulsively kiss Dorothy and throw two of her most important friendships into chaos.

    3. Vulcanodon

      Exactly – dealing with the loss of the known self!

  26. anonymsly

    Man, this has got to be sneak-rough on Joyce. This was supposed to be a nice dinner party thing, time with Dorothy, and maybe small fence-mending with Becky.

    Instead, Becky has used this get-together to slap her in the face with Rich Mullins, of all artists, whose dream-form was one of the earlier rustlings of Joyce’s now full-blown and acknowledged atheism. And, on top of that, Joyce has gotten another faceful of exactly how pervasive her former death-cult was in her life and what an extended process detangling herself is likely to be. (I highly doubt she actually thought about music as something to go on her ‘fix this about myself’ list.)

    And Becky’s panel 4 look reads as ‘oooh, bonus content!’ to me – she wanted to annoy Joyce and pick a fight, instead she’s getting… something else. I am uncharitable and really dislike Becky in a lot of ways, so I’m wondering if she’s about to break out some ‘you only know Christian music because you’re still a Christian in your heart!’ pressure to reconvert.

    1. -

      Yeah, when you consider how Joyce dropped basically everything to support Becky all down the line, it’s… disappointing, both how Becky chooses to treat Joyce (even before, when it was like “I like to just wind her up and watch her go”- really? Manipulative much? That’s some good friendship there), and how she never seems to be called out for it, whether for ingratitude/ disloyalty or whatever else. She hasn’t devoted even one second to thinking about WHY Joyce is saying and doing these things; she cannot see past the end of her nose.

      1. alongcameaspider

        The closest we’ve gotten to someone calling out Becky is Dorothy’s toothless “this is wildly overpossesive” line and Becky’s response was “lol and doesn’t that make me super awsome”

      2. Spencer

        This is because Becky trusts that Joyce unconditionally loves her, since Joyce does.

        The Problem with Becky, or more specifically, The Problem with Becky vis-a-vis the relationships she takes for granted, is that her primary friendgroup is full of people who have constant, unending, unconditional love for her.

        Joyce saved Becky’s life because Joyce loves her, therefore Becky is safe and can act as she pleases. Leslie and Dina constantly dote and praise Becky and so she does not have to earn their love, except she knows that if she steps out of line they’ll stop loving her. Dorothy is endlessly capitulating to Becky in much the same way as Joyce has been her whole life, and so Becky can poke and prod at Dorothy in the hopes of proving she is a cool funny badass much the same way Becky did for Joyce.

        Consequently, Becky does not engage with anyone who is willing to tell her off in any meaningful capacity. She needs to surround herself with people that make her feel safe, and “safety” to Becky is “people I don’t have to prove myself to so they like me.” The problem there, though, is that Becky’s standards of “proving myself” are that she acts how she pleases because whoever she’s talking to obviously won’t turn on her ever. Joyce does not, neither does Dorothy. Leslie won’t but Becky sure thought she would when Leslie got a girlfriend, and Becky blamed Dina for not being horny on main for her until Becky came to understand that Dina isn’t wired for that, whereupon Becky started blaming herself.

        In summary: if Becky tried this shit on Ruth and Jennifer some more, which she might, she was dismayed they were in class together after she openly embarrassed them in the hopes of keeping them apart, one of them is probably gonna do a spinning piledriver on her.

        I’ve said this once before and I think it sums the character’s current struggles pretty well: Becky is in the state Joyce was prior to the timeskip; the trauma’s there but it’s buried under goofy dialogue and smiles, so once it comes out in a way that’s not immediately compliant to the people around her, we’re gonna be just as shocked she’s doing it the way we were, apparently, just as shocked that Joyce Brown thinks her entire life has been fucking bullshit.

        1. Spencer

          I should rethink my reputation as a Dorothy Hater(tm) and a Becky Hater(tm). I don’t think I can hate them as much as I say I do if I drop the wordpiles on what motivates them as much as I do, unless taterade is not thinking of them as pure and blameless babbies.

          I don’t even get to be an Ethan Hater(tm) anymore since he came back as Bully Maguire, or a Walky Hater(tm) since that comic thing got recontextualized as an ADHD spiral where he cared about something long enough for it to be taken away, or a Robin Hater(tm) for that matter, since she’s just kind of a funny goofball mom to Becky.

          I just like everyone in the series now. This sucks.

        2. Spencer

          haterade*

          taterade sounds disgusting

        3. Rose Red

          I think taterade is just cheap vodka.

        4. Rabbit

          FWIW, I never took you as a particular hater, you just seem like you want better for both of these characters, narratively.

          I might be projecting tho.

        5. anonymsly

          I think the problem that Becky’s going to start running into is that unconditional love/acceptance does not equal infinite love/acceptance. At a certain point, people, however much they love her and/or accept her, are going to realize that they don’t deserve the cocktail of manipulation, cruelty, controlling behaviors, and possessiveness that’s basically all Becky really serves them. If they’re not willing to push back then, they’ll just disappear from her life.

  27. Rabbit

    Wow, becky REALLY can’t socialize with Joyce without constantly needling her huh.

    And this is after Joyce bent over to try and make peace and invited her along. And called out that she’s suffering showing she KNOWS Becky.

    I know it’s leading somewhere but it’s still frustrating.

  28. ZerglingOne

    Ugh. That song’s instrumental melody and writing belie the shit lyrics and vocal phrasing. It’s like if butt rock sold out to Christian folk.

    1. Delicious Taffy

      I’d play the shit out of a Devil May Cry game based directly on the Bible, with the requisite Christian-sellout butt rock soundtrack. That sounds amazing.

      1. Rose by Any Other Name

        … I… I think you may have just described Bayonetta.

        1. Delicious Taffy

          Bayonetta may incorporate Christian imagery and names, but there’s also a lot of standard witch-y stuff in there, like demonic pacts and mixing potions for special abilities. The angels and Heaven-themed stuff is definitely central, but mostly in an aesthetic sense. Also the sound track is definitely more funky/jazzy than anything else, with of course the requisite chanting and grand orchestral stuff on top.

          I was thinking much more literally and explicitly, something like Jesus breaking himself down off the cross and using the splintered board fragments as weapons and fighting his way across the Holy Lands to take down the people responsible. That sorta thing.

        2. Rose by Any Other Name

          Fair enough.

          I never got past the midpoint of Bayonetta anyway on account of the difficulty curve suddenly switching from ‘walk in the park’ to ‘bending me over a whipping horse and wailing on my ass with one of those wiffle-paddles with the holes in them’.

        3. Rose by Any Other Name

          As to your other point… I would again mention Xenogears, or it’s gameplay inferior prequel, Xenosaga (parts 1-3). While a turnbased JRPG, it does involve literal Jesus as a bare-knuckle fist fighter and martial artist.

      2. Regalli

        There was definitely a Christian Video Games Thing up into the mid-aughts, but I don’t know if anyone got licensing for Christian rock in the soundtrack or the like. I suspect that’d be the best bet for a game like that – the soundtrack choice implies sincerity. Even someone who went secular, actively seeking them out seems sincere.

        Unfortunately, to my knowledge those games had the same issue as a lot of Christian rock music: the emphasis on being Christian first, and making a quality creative thing second, tends to result in a watered-down copy and that kind of fast-paced action is tricky to get right even for skilled developers.

        1. The Wellerman

          Would the Binding of Isaac count as a “Christian Game”, then?

        2. alongcameaspider

          Unironically, maybe

          It certainly isn’t against any form of Christianity other then the televangelist style and strongly implies that style is the work of the devil

        3. Delicious Taffy

          It’s true, a lot of “Christian X” media is basically shovelware. A nice British fellow called Caddicarus recently put out an hour-long video on the ‘Tube, showing off what I can only assume is the majority of explicitly and deliberately Christian video games, and there were about 3 good ideas in the pile. It’s a fuckin’ shame, because if they could manage something that’s even just pretty decent, it’d at least be noteworthy.

  29. Nelly Dreadful

    Aww, that’s unexpectedly sad. How does one start finding out what your music tastes even are, when for so long you didn’t have the chance to explore them? That must seem so overwhelming.

    1. Delicious Taffy

      She should start playing JRPGs, for the music. Replace Jesus with Sora, and all that.

      1. Spencer

        You’re saying this like they are not the same person.

        1. Delicious Taffy

          See, you get it.

  30. Carms

    I have decided the outfits are SYMBOLIC. Joyce in black and white, Becky in blue, contrasted against her orange hair, Dorothy in a lil column a, a lil column b.
    SYMBOLISM. YISS. VERY SYMBOL MUCH MEANINGS

    1. Rose Red

      What do you think the blue symbolizes?

      1. Spencer

        Movie posters.

  31. DailyBrad

    You know, as far as faith music goes, I’d way rather listen to Rich Mullins than a lot of it.

    1. Amós Batista

      Yeah right? He was such a great artist.

      1. Andy4Hire

        Agreed. I wrote him off as music for middle-aged suburban drones for a while in my teens, preferring Audio Adrenaline and Bleach and the Supertones and so on. But somehow or other shortly after college I actually paid attention to a few of Mullins’ recordings and he turned out to be much better at songcraft, and therefore much more listenable, than I’d given him credit for.

        1. The Wellerman

          Holy crap I fucking LOVE the music of Bleach!!! ?

          “Creeping Shadows” has got to be my favorite song ever!!!

  32. TheFlamingonator

    I’m sure nowadays there are Playlists for kids who only know Christian music. Called something like “music my parents never let me listen to but screw them”

  33. Queezle

    Becky really can be a passive aggressive asshole, can’t she?
    She know what she is doing- that expression in panel two says it all.

    1. Sporky

      Listen, I’m not a Becky hater, she’s a fun character with a lot of relatable struggles and depth, but God do I want other characters in the narrative start acknowledging how much of a shithead Becky is.

      1. Imogen

        Counterpoint: I’m not a huge Becky fan, I think she’s been a little much for a while now, but I think this comic kind of makes her more of a jerk than she usually is. This is just a jerk move.

      2. Queezle

        Yes. Because if they did and called her out she could start to change for the better. Because I do think that she is a nice person when all is said and done.

      3. -

        GOD, yes. She needs to be told “you’re (being) an asshole”. Whether or not she’ll CARE/ do anything to remedy that, I rather doubt.

    2. Keulen

      I didn’t realize it was Becky who picked that music to play until now. Yeah she’s definitely still being a jerk, just a passive aggressive one instead of openly insulting and arguing with Joyce for her atheism.

  34. Delicious Taffy

    Giving the linked track a quick listen, the opening reminds me of that song from Oliver & Company, the one where the little girl is using a kitten to fill the gap left by her absentee parents. Something something applicability.

  35. Amós Batista

    Except black metal, is there songs that are explicitly atheist? I just remembered “Never ending day” from Vision Divine.

    1. RowenMorland

      Individual songs rather than specific bands or genres? Yes, stuff like Modest Mouse’s Third Planet is about a loss of faith in both love and god after a miscarriage and Boukowski seems to be about starting to be how Joyce currently is and finding themselves just as obnoxious as they now find the idea of god. If you are Feeling Sinister by Belle and Sebastian and a couple of others by them have the theme of turning to priests for advice in a crisis but only getting a conversion attempt rather than help. You Don’t Need a God by Dido seems to be about having belief in what you want without the need for any labels or gods.

      It is a lot easier to spot/remember the ones which are critical of religion or pushing against it in the lyrics than ones which are more ‘atheist’ by the total lack of religious influence or disinterest in god.

    2. Ellegos

      Chumbawamba’s “Charlie” is about Charles Darwin and the theory of evolution. I remember MC Frontalot having a song called the Origin of Species ironically featuring a minister speaking before a congregation about introducing intelligent to schools, and starting a schism while they’re at it.

  36. DarkoNeko

    …you’ve been watching youtube, surely you didn’t skip any vid whose songs didn’t sing praises of the Lord

  37. JBento

    Can we have Mike back instead of Becky? They’re both pernicious little shits, but at least Mike was an ENTERTAINING pernicious little shit.

  38. Mr. L. Shade

    Ray Conniff perhaps?

    1. Needfuldoer

      Joyce tiptoes into the world of music her mother would disapprove of by looking up Alice Cooper on YouTube.

      [3 minutes and 22 seconds later]
      Joyce: “That’s it?!”

      1. Mr. L. Shade

        Legendary Stardust Cowboy perhaps?

  39. Chronos

    Joyce’s comment in the last panel is the saddest thing to hear.

  40. Sombrero

    Now Joyce will discover that atheism is not just right, it is fun too!!

    In my headcanon, this is a olive branch on Becky’s part, but maybe it’s just an own goal. Willis’ buffer only knows.

    1. JBento

      Wait, how are you construing this as an olive branch? Unless you mean it’s a very thick branch, and Becky’s bashing Joyce with it.

      1. Spencer

        I don’t think Becky’s being deliberately antagonistic so much as she’s trying to restore her status quo, and that status quo was one where saying Joyce’s germophobia is funny or that she’d want to listen to Rich Mullins.

        Becky doesn’t get it. This used to work, but she’s still running with what worked with her old Joyce.

        1. JBento

          No, that second-panel shit-eating grin is a VERY CLEAR sign that she’s being deliberately antagonistic.

        2. Spencer

          Right, but Becky’s entire relationship with Joyce has been Like That, is the thing. Becky is safe to tease and try to make Joyce Faces happen for *long-winded post about why Becky craves unconditional love that I’ll write if someone asks me to*

          For all the love, their friendship has been deeply codependent, and dragging it further into hell is their best opportunity to keep the love and getting rid of the part where Becky has zero self-control over how her actions affect Joyce.

          Which should be pretty easy to grasp once she gets a Shin Shoryuken to the jaw and realizes “oh dang I’ve been taking advantage of Joyce this whole time,” since the one time Joyce was ever able to rely on her for anything in the comic, Becky finding out about being attacked at while at a party, Becky was really good at providing emotional support and swiftly found a way to act on taking Joyce to a party in a way that Joyce would feel safe, and even the part where she connected her own unprompted kissing of Joyce didn’t cause her to collapse into a mess that Joyce had to clean up (which as far as I’m concerned, is how any dramatic moments between them have played out in the past since they typically involve Becky being victimized and in need of protection), she just felt really guilty about it until Joyce acknowledged it wasn’t anywhere in the same universe as what had happened.

          I’ve brought up this moment before as the one time Becky was actually able to meaningfully give back to Joyce, but it’s also the one moment in the series where Joyce not only relied on Becky for something, it’s the only one where she ever held her to any kind of standard. Don’t make out with me, but also hugs are still safe.

      2. Sombrero

        My premises are two:

        1. Becky and Joyce know each other very well.
        2. Becky has made being superficially antagonistic and disrespectful her way of interacting with people (except Dina and sometimes Christian-Joyce).

        So, Becky’s acting her usual self in the belief that Joyce will not take it badly, because she knows her, and she’s sending a subtle message like, “this is a way in which I can assert my Christian identity while being with you, because I know you like Rich Mullins and I also know you don’t know about not-Christian music, so it will be OK for both now, and also I will make you realize that there are many ways about your newfound atheism that you should explore instead of constantly droning about the part where atheism is right and I’m wrong”.

        This is how it plays in my head. There is a 0.00000000000000001% probability that this is how it plays in Willis’ buffer also. But, hey, it’s not zero.

        1. Spencer

          I will make you realize that there are many ways about your newfound atheism that you should explore instead of constantly droning about the part where atheism is right and I’m wrong

          Joyce told Becky that becoming an atheist was like tearing her own organs out and Becky’s immediate response was that it made them both total strangers now.

          Like when she talked about Joyce as her buffer, she explicitly states that she didn’t think she’d already lost Joyce, and that she thinks Joyce “doesn’t have to be” an atheist and overreact.

          It’s pretty clearly not something Becky’s willing to budge on.

        2. Sombrero

          It was clearly something Becky felt and she said it aloud (she’s not the type that stays mum about things), but then she accepted Joyce’s dinner invitation almost immediately. Maybe that’s not budging, but it is clear that she still wants to be close to this particular “total stranger”.

        3. alongcameaspider

          And she promptly started being passive aggressive at said dinner party

          Like I dont think her face in panel 2 leaves any room for interpretation on why she decided to play Christian music

        4. Spencer

          She does, yes. The problem is that she wants to be close to someone she can’t conceptualize she is currently causing any grief.

          It’s Total Stranger Becky who is currently saying it’d be funny to watch Joyce freak out over sharing a bowl and playing Rich Mullins music. She’s not asserting a healthy friendship of shared differences, she’s running with the same script that led her to track Joyce down through Liz’s facebook so she could assert herself as Joyce’s Cool Christian Friend.

        5. Sombrero

          I see your point, but the way all this storyline has been written it seems that Joyce and Becky’s friendship is something to take into account. Joyce seems very sure that Becky will accept her sooner than later, so she’s not doubting even for a moment that she does not need to concede any point to Becky. She seems to know that their friendship will survive the changes and she has been careful to avoid any hint that Becky is causing her any grief, she’s rationalizing that the grief was caused mainly by their former community and their families. On the other hand, she acts like she knows all the harsh words by Becky are tantrums, not very different from her own venting (I know, I know, she did not mean to tell that to Becky’s face, and Becky is saying this to her face, but that’s just how each one of them reacts, she’s not taking Becky’s dicta at face value).

          Sorry for the brick of text. What I mean TL/DR is: they are friends, Joyce is acting more mature, as usual, but Becky knows more than she lets out, as usual.

        6. thejeff

          Is Joyce really acting more mature? (I mean, right now in this strip sure, but in general?)

          Her stance is basically that she’s not going to lose Becky as a friend because Becky’s smart and will come join her in “no-Jesus land”. Neither of them is yet willing to accept the other as they are.

        7. Sombrero

          Not “mature” in absolute terms or “more mature” than previous Joyce, but “more mature” than Becky, clearly yes.

        8. Spencer

          I also think Joyce and Becky’s friendship is being taken into account, in that I think their friendship is something that relied on an unhealthy status quo that, the minute Joyce took a step out of it by seeing a friend without Becky there, it all immediately crumbled and we saw two people whose love for each other relied on never stepping out of lockstep.

          Joyce and Becky stated firmly to the other that they aren’t changing on the matter of faith. No one’s getting converted, Joyce is not overreacting, and Becky does not need to go to premarital sex land, it’s fixed, so now they are Total Strangers.

          And now we’re here, running with the same script of Becky teasing Joyce and Joyce not saying anything back because Becky is someone to be constantly protected and it’s funny to force her to make Joyce Faces, Becky is playing Rich Mullins music because she can’t think of anything else or, legitimately, is trying to enforce it onto Joyce, we’ll see.

          Joyce and Becky are Total Strangers and then Joyce invited Becky over anyway because the legitimately both love each other dearly and want to be as close as possible, on top of Dorothy threatening Joyce that if she kept this up then Becky would stop being her friend forever so Joyce had to go over to Galasso’s and play emotional labourer for Becky yet again, but the Joyce that Becky wants doesn’t exist.

        9. Sombrero

          Yeah, we’re reading this from different perspectives and only Willis’ buffer knows how much we will need to adapt them in the near future.

        10. alongcameaspider

          Yeah that was a perfect chance for Becky to say something like “I’m not asking you to give it up, just stop being an asshole about it”

          Instead she said “well then I guess we’re not friends anymore lmao”

        11. thejeff

          After Joyce said, “You don’t gotta get left behind. You can join me and Dinaand Dorothy in no-Jesus land.”

          Neither of them are budging, not just on their own beliefs, but on the demand that the other join them.

        12. Spencer

          Given that the strip afterwards involved them both saying “I ain’t changing” so now we’re Total Strangers, it’s probably worth questioning if we’re still in “convert to my side” time and not “reevaluate the existing friendship” o’clock.

        13. Needfuldoer

          Never budge! That’s my rule. Never budge in the least!
          Not an inch to the west! Not an inch to the east!

        14. thejeff

          Becky being her usual self worked yesterday with the food teasing, that’s normal between them and not an issue of contention.

          This, especially with that look in panel 2, is not the same. If it’s not deliberately antagonizing the problem between them, it’s an attempt to bring Joyce back into the fold by reminding her of what she liked about her religion.

        15. Sombrero

          You may be right, and in that case I would take this scene as Becky shooting her own foot, because I have little doubt that Joyce will not be attracted back to the fold by Rich Mullins, she will be prompted to look for things that she may like outside of her old religion.

  41. Spencer

    Dorothy: You’re rushing in too fast, maybe settle on a nice deism first.

    *Rich Mullins*

    Dorothy: no not like that

    1. Heather

      I actually like Dorothy but my eyes still bug out when I’m reminded of that line from her. It might be the stupidest thing I’ve heard a supposedly smart person say in reaction to changes in religious beliefs.

      1. Spencer

        Dorothy is the Smart, Knowing, Mature One under two conditions:

        – When she hangs out with Walky and Joyce.

        – When Joyce’s problems are something with a binary answer that’s solved by Joyce’s empathy for other people.

        More seriously, Dorothy’s parents are outrageously kind and went above and beyond to nurture her, which is to say they acted like parents should, and Dorothy is surrounded by peers who have been deeply traumatized and some of them don’t even recognize it, least of all Dorothy herself.

        Bluntly: Dorothy doesn’t get it. She’s trying to gently handhold Joyce into a nice and quiet resolution so she stops being so dang problematic, and Dorothy just does not understand in the slightest the sheer amount of worldshaking trauma Joyce is experiencing, because Dorothy does not process religious belief like Joyce did: Dorothy decided on atheism after getting the chance to think about it, Joyce was told to believe absolute nonsense for years until it all crumbled, and Dorothy can’t process Joyce’s anger as acceptable because, to Dorothy, anger’s only good if it’s used for a righteous cause, and Joyce’s anger is “coming at the expense” of Becky even though that expense is one that happened because Dorothy tracked her to Joe’s room to learn why she was being such a school misser.

        This is a character read on my part, but Dorothy does not respect Joyce. Joyce is being Problematic, she is being Unreasonably Angry, and so Joyce has to fix things at the convenience of everyone else despite being the one suffering with Dorothy’s only contributions being to tell her that her feelings are only valid as long as Dorothy can quantify them.

    2. Amós Batista

      Look, Spencer. After researching Rich Mullins (the funny thing is I discovered him by Doa), I believe he IS a great example of faith. Mullins’s history is so beautiful.

  42. Keulen

    There’s so much better music out there for Joyce to listen to. I hope she finds some good not-explicitly-religious music she likes soon.

  43. Rabisch

    Nice move, Becky. Joyce will slowly beginning to really dislike her. Then she only needs to do the same with Dina and her plan to be alone will finally ba a success.

    1. -

      Alone? No way! Everyone LOVES Becky! The peppy, plucky lesbian, with the haircut thing! You know, Becky! She’s… like, really annoying and inconsiderate all the time… and, uh… yeah, you’re probably right

  44. Shadowsnail

    Playlist for a new atheist:
    Start with “Dear God” by XTC.
    Then the entire album Going to Hell by The Pretty Reckless.

  45. Mr. Random

    I don’t know what I don’t know is a horrifying ordeal in college.

  46. Keith

    Gurl, let me introduce you to some true american music. (cues up charlie patton) this is some real front porch and sheet for a door music.

  47. Florence

    That last panel Joyce is so sad, so much of the arc has been about her relationship with other people but here she is once again faced with what the void of no religion leaves behind. As hard as the antagonistic conversations are, I think they provide a distractions from what’s really getting to Joyce

  48. Vulcanodon

    Cults are cruelly isolating. Recovery will take a long time.

  49. Adept

    I hope the comic will address the fact that Mullins was pretty obviously gay.

    1. -

      Wow, did you know him? He told you that personally?

      1. Adept

        It’s pretty obvious

    2. Amós Batista

      What? Why?

    3. Laura

      Interesting article on the topic:

      Was Rich Mullins gay? An Evangelical star has to keep secrets
      Jonathan Poletti
      Aug 2, 2020
      https://medium.com/belover/the-queer-love-of-rich-mullins-f14170612b63

      Did Rich Mullins have AIDS?
      New evidence in the life of the Evangelical legend
      Jonathan Poletti
      Jul 27, 2021
      https://medium.com/belover/did-rich-mullins-have-aids-c311bb66521

      1. Amós Batista

        Mullins being gay could be awesome, but bothers me how these sensacionalistic journalists turns gay every man that not follows they masculinity roleship.

      2. Laura

        This reported concert monologue of Rich Mullins’s could be another one of those “…asking for a friend…” type of self-reflective anecdotes discussed in the article:

        A Conversation with Rich Mullins
        CCM Magazine June 1997
        http://www.audiori.net/richmullins/articles/aconversation.html

        1. Laura

          By “asking for a friend” I mean, a story about Christian counsel given to a “friend” of his who was gay, when perhaps, in fact, the words were meant for or directed toward Mullins himself.

  50. Daniel M Ball

    I’m actually hoping Joyce starts processing the difference between the moneychangers in the temple and faith in god. I really AM hoping she starts realizing that rejecting the abuse of faith isn’t the same as rejecting faith itself. Becky’s got it figured out, so how long will it take Joyce to catch on that you CAN believe in your god, without swallowing the bullshit from the self-appointed priests.

    1. alongcameaspider

      So long as Becky also processes that Joyce rejecting faith isn’t a personal betrayal that make them “strangers” and that it’s perfectly valid after all the trauma Joyce has suffered that can be tied to religion

      1. khn0

        or without any trauma

        1. Spencer

          I do wonder, on some level, if a lot of the “being an Edgy Atheist to Christians” takes are coming from that space.

          Like that Joyce’s words just exist in a vacuum of “being mean to someone for their faith” and not within the dual contexts of Joyce’s repeat traumas at the hands of everything she was told to unquestionably serve and *gestures broadly at North America.*

  51. Jimmy

    I was raised Baptist and I’m now atheist, but I still listen to the Christian music I grew up with as well as new music both Christian and secular. You don’t have to believe what the artists do to enjoy the music. That’s just my opinion though.

    1. Axel_Grease

      For Joyce it’s probably a little too soon.

      1. Jimmy

        Good point

  52. Acher4

    Do I see a side-smile on Joyce on second panel?
    There is one, isn’t it? 😛

  53. Harmony

    Ooof, I remember being that person.

    The Christian who only listened to Christian music who then stopped being Christian so I had to start developing actual music tastes.

    Years later, I’m now a hardcore fusion fan. Got too tired of living in a world where people limited themselves to one tradition. Any music I listen to has to have at least two genres or cross cultural boundaries.

    Now my two favorite bands are Nathanial Johnstone & Friends who literally made their own genre (Retrofuturistic steampunk folk rock ballads – Prometheus[Steam] is my favorite song of theirs, though their most popular is Snugglefish ) and Lindsey Sterling (Video game music + pop music + violin)

    1. Rose Red

      Thanks for the recommendation! Retrofuturistic steampunk folk rock sounds super fun.

  54. raultsi

    how about some nice Black Sabbath? I prefer the Ozzy stuff.

  55. Leadsynth

    Point of clarification. Who played the music, Joyce or Becky? The art and narrative seem to suggest that it was Becky, but I’m confused because I thought the orange case was Joyce’s phone. Is Becky playing music from Joyce’s phone?

    1. Spencer

      It’s Becky, yeah. The posing of the hand and phone is pretty clear.

  56. Amós Batista

    Joyce, you could start with Power Metal. It’s a all positive and “spiritual” song, but not necessary chrirstian.

    1. Axel_Grease

      I am literally listening to powerwolf right now.

      1. The Wellerman

        JUST started listening… loving every fucking minute of it!!! ?

        Right up there with VOMITRON’s music, which I’m also q huge fan of —

        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hUFOq6FpvYY

        1. Axel_Grease

          Oh wow this is excellent, thank you my friend.

        2. Amós Batista

          nice suggestion, I love game songs cover

    2. Roborat

      I think she should give Steel Panther a listen.

  57. BubbaFett

    I’d never heard any of Rich Mullins before and I thought it sounded quite good, pleasent even…until the lyrics kicked in

  58. Beau Kirin Maysey

    i like how moments of sad penetrate through the smug

  59. Username Taken

    Becky would grow so much if her friends would just tell her when she’s being toxic instead of allowing her to do things like this and just shrugging like “She acts out like she’s playing a slapstick role on Looney Tunes, but wants to have her feelings respected like she’s a real person, I guess we have to respect that.” I think it would be a lot healthier for everyone to respect Becky and ask her to do the same for others.

    Poor Joyce, that’s a pretty crummy musical upbringing. On the other hand, lucky Joyce, there’s more good music in the world than anyone has the time to listen to, so her cup runneth over!

    1. alongcameaspider

      Someone set this young woman up with a Spotify account and tell her to go nuts

    2. Axel_Grease

      I like this take a lot. People tiptoe around her because she’s had a rough time, but it’s not doing her any favors.

  60. Bysmerian

    You know, I’ve been more or less on Becky’s side this whole time. Not that she’s done everything right and Joyce has every right to call out “what the shit why did you skip class just to track me down?” And I thought maybe, just maybe she got it through her head that Joyce acknowledging her own lack of faith was not just a phase from the golden child of their church community running into some of the uglier parts of the real world.

    Hell, I even didn’t particularly take offense to the “I guess we’re strangers” line. Joyce *agreed* with that, and while it was hyperbole I could at least see it as reflecting the distance between the two when Joyce’s lack of faith and Becky’s affirmation of it seemed to make no sense to the other.

    (And I can even understand Becky taking some offense prior. When she said “I am Lesbian. I am Christian.” That means that Joyce suggesting that Becky join her and Dina in no-Jesus-land was roughly as offensive as saying, “have you tried not being gay?”

    So yeah. I’ve generally been leaning team Becky, inasmuch as if I were forced to pick.

    But this is a dick move.

    I’m disappointed in you Becky. I did not ask for a bongo accompaniment for this dulcimer.

    1. thejeff

      Note that Becky didn’t skip class to track her down. She came back with Dorothy from her morning class to find out Joyce was skipping. To me, going to find her then has always seemed like a perfectly college thing to do.

      Barring some context revelation tomorrow, I agree this seems a pretty solidly lousy move.

  61. mrnoidea

    Alt-text: pssh, Rock Band is soooooo 2007. You could widen your music tastes by getting Pandora or Spotify.

  62. GeekRyuu

    Personally, I like showtunes.

  63. Eldritchy

    Maybe get some Christian Metal as a mid-way point?

  64. Pablo360

    Am I missing something? Is there a reason Becky playing Rich Mullins on her phone is, based on the way the comments are talking about it, three steps short of murder?

    1. alongcameaspider

      Her face on Panel 2 indicates to me that she’s playing Christian music as a passive aggressive way of pushing Christianity on Joyce after they both made clear that neither were going to budge on the issue

      1. Eldritchy

        Pretty manipulative, she is pretty much bludgeoning Joyce with nostalgia.

  65. Dierna

    Im surprised they even know who Rich Mullins is considering he died in the mid 90s…but her parents probably had all his records or something.

    But yeah it’s sad Joyce only knows christian artists (some ARE pretty awesome tho like Chris Rice, Michael W. Smith or Petra). Becky probably has “What if Cartoons Got Saved” on her playlist there…

    Quick! Somebody introduce Joyce to The Hu or Reba (who has a couple gospel albums) or Squirrel Nut Zippers or Wig Wam….

    1. King Daniel

      Joyce mentioned in her last phone call with Jocelyne that both of them knew what Rich Mullins looked like from YouTube. Records might be a little too out-of-date. 😛

  66. the jighole man

    this moment gives us a bit of insight into why she acted the way she did, and why she was as mad as she was about religion.

    “i don’t know any other music”

    all she knew was religion.
    all she had was religion.
    she ate religion, slept religion, heard religion, breathed religion.
    her personality was religion.
    her entire being was religion… and then the event happened.

    the kidnapping/attempted murder done by 2 people using religion as an excuse/tool to convince others and themselves that it was right.

    1. The Wellerman

      Very succinct.

      That event took a lot out of everyone, personally, emotionally, physically.

      For Joyce, it took out the only pegs she had to stand on, the religion she always thought was an absolute good.

      It’s just like that scene in Toy Story where Buzz Lightyear realized he wasn’t really a space ranger.

      Except for Joyce this process is coming in pieces, each more painful and agonizing than the last.

  67. ProjectXa3

    I wonder if he’s related to that Shawn Mullins guy?

  68. Perdellian

    One deconverted atheist to another, Joyce…
    Petra’s “Creed” (from their 1990 album, “Beyond Belief”) is better.
    Just sayin’

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