I have to admit, I hadn’t expected the enthusiastic response I go to that comment. I hadn’t gotten anything like that since the time I suggested that Willis put “Dina Summaries” of each in-universe day.
The “Holy than thou” attitude drives me nuts, even when they’re my own religion/political party. But I notice it more with people who are atheist than people who aren’t, though not by a large margin.
I think every group has an equally large percentage of “holier than thou” members, but only by other groups’ standards. Every religion, party, or other group has something its members believe is true but practically nobody else does, so any time people talk about that “truth” they’ll annoy outsiders long before other group members. However, a lot of really “holier than thou” people will cross that line pretty quickly, hence why more rational people like you and I don’t notice a large gap.
You mean you find lots of atheists who think they’re holier than thou? Odd. I’d think it would be significantly easier to find atheists who’re ‘smartier than thou’ – ones who find theistic beliefs to be too problematic at some intellectual or moral level to put up with (or at a less abrasive level, to ‘respect’). I can see that having roughly the same end result though.
icepyrox
Whether they are holy or “smart”, it’s still looking down on others. Also, I’ve found many atheists would be better described as believing there is no God as opposed to lacking a belief in any god, which makes them just as fervent as any Christian about their beliefs.
begbert2
Fervency is relative; I believe that there’s no Christian god with absolute certainty because of the internal contradictions. This is the same sort of fervent belief I have in 1+1 equaling 2 and in gravity existing. On the subject of many non-christian gods I believe there is no god the same way I believe there are no unicorns. It’s real disbelief, but let me get a good look at one (I have a lab table ready, complete with straps!), and I’ll readily change my tune.
As for looking down on others, yes, some of us do that; I certainly wasn’t saying otherwise. I personally have a tendency to look down on people who cling to silly beliefs, theistic or not. I was merely getting picky about using the term ‘holier than thou’ to describe my particular brand of snobbery.
Cronomatt
So in other words your trying to fulfill the stereotype you mentioned.
That makes you the most unreliable source possible. By calling them ‘silly beliefs’, you have proven yourself to be more then a little bit closed minded. Closed minded usually means stupid. Not in all situations, but its a slippery slope. Even if I was an atheist, which in another life I could have been, to assume one is always right is egotistical.
So, as a smarter then thou, do you believe yourself to be smarter then any believers. Its better to admit your egotistical, then to beat around the bush like most smarter then thou’s would.
begbert2
I don’t have to try to fulfill a stereotype. I am a human. I have human flaws. I am burdened by a hubris that comes easily to one that (believe it or not) actually has found that for periods of my life many things came more easily to my understanding than they did to others.
(That period is over – I’m getting older and my memory has gotten incredibly spotty. But the hubris learned in my youth is a hard-to-shed habit.)
My ego doesn’t make me an unreliable source, though. It doesn’t help my arguments, but it doesn’t weaken them either. My arguments stand alone.
Not that I’m actually *making* any arguments against religion at the moment. I’m just baldly stating that after a great deal of analysis, most of which I did before my brain went, I have come to certain conclusions about the likelihood of various types of deity existing. Some of these conclusions were summarized above.
Having reached these conclusions, I see others to whom these issues seemingly haven’t even crossed their mind. I forget how much deliberation it took me to reach my conclusions and wonder at these people’s abilities to overlook the obvious.
Not that all of these conclusions require a lot of deliberation. Some beliefs are just silly.
And thinking that doesn’t make me stupid. Regardless of how convenient it would be to some people to dismiss my conclusions so handily.
Khrene Cleaver
To summarize Begbert, you made an ad hominem attack, and this ain’t a debate on morals.
Khrene Cleaver
None the less really a debate.
Zababcd
Cronomatt, please improve punctuation and wording before suggesting that another poster with correct writing practices is stupid. It is very difficult to resist posting a long list of errors that need to be corrected, which would make both of us look bad.
Luxlucis
If cronomatt has writing errors I would hardly think that makes her arguments less valid. She could very well be a non native english speaker.
lightsabermario
Ease off my brother. He’s intelligent, but he’s not the grammar and spelling guru of the family.
Somebody
That’s called hypocrisy, man!
DarkVeghetta
To be fair, using ad hominem to discredit someone using ad hominem is a bit backwards. Still, it does prove he’s sloppy at least. Also, non-native isn’t an excuse when you’re trying to have a debate, since there are standards that must be upheld for a debate to exist in the first place. To be fair, using ‘your’ instead of ‘you’re’ is hardly under that
standard.
However, do note that ‘silly beliefs’ isn’t nearly as close minded as you might think it is. Most believers think that those not of their faith are either idiots/ignorant/evil/misguided/close minded/etc – all of which strike me as extremely condescending. Point is we all consider our beliefs to be superior to the other ones, otherwise we’d use those instead. Hence, ‘silly beliefs’ merely uses less sugar to coat the innate condescension mostly everyone has when tackling this sort of debate. This does not take away from his argument, it just makes him less amiable (still a mistake if you’re trying to be convincing though).
Somebody
I think most people believe contradictory and/or unproven things.
DarkVeghetta
@icepyrox largely depends on their environment. I can guarantee that atheists that had/have religion pushed in their faces all day long will be MUCH more acerbic then those that are lucky enough not to have to deal with such. Therefor it is a case of ‘annoyed/angry to the point of rage’ rather then belief. In other words, no – lacking belief still is lacking belief, but some are more angry/annoyed about the fact that it’s considered abnormal to lack a faith in most societies (not to mention consequences thereof, see comic above for just one of the many many situations one can encounter as a atheist).
Anger can create passion, it’s that passion you mistake for
belief.
Yeah, George is right here: every political or religious (or atheist) group has “holier than thou” people in about the same concentration, except of course in a cult scenario where you’re kind of required to be like that. We just tend to notice the ones in groups we disagree with more, because they’re the ones we run into more.
I imagine by and large it’s also more a case of the attitude being more apparent to those outside the clutch of a belief, I will not deny that I’ve come across many internet atheists who lacked any sort of tact of humility for their personal beliefs, but in my experience it has always ‘seemed’ like those professing a belief in the Christian god touted this attitude more, that said, again it’s all a matter of perspective, the amount total with this actual attitude may vary greatly from what is perceived by the individual and what is actual H.T.T tude versus the grey areas of followers to a belief.
DarkVeghetta
Funny thing – ‘tact’ won’t make an argument more or less valid, but humans tend to ignore anything that comes from an aggravating source. Meaning that if you want PEOPLE to care about the sounds you make with your mouth-flaps, you’d better try to be likeable while you do it. Many fall short of this basic hurdle.
“Some people want to live their lives
Within the sound of a church bell
I wan to open a rescue shop
Within a yard of hell.”
Staying away from non-Christians and shunning then is the opposite of what Jesus wanted his followers to do. You’ll never lighten dark places if you don’t go in yourself with a light.
The sad thing is that she’s ignoring the fact that Jesus hung out with tax collectors (the equivalent of extortionists, in the day), whores, thieves, and many other kinds of sinners. These, he said when challenged by the Pharisees for his practice, were those who needed to be saved. Hanging out with the righteous and pure accomplished nothing, they were already saved.
That’s not to say that Christians should hang out with people who are in the commission of sinful acts. Just that associating with a sinner isn’t an evil or sinful act. And avoiding a sinner isn’t in itself a righteous behavior, and is actually contrary to the teachings of Christ.
Mary should worry about her own soul and stay out of Joyce’s business. But then, how often do fundies do that?
Phlebas
Alternatively: Mary should be concerned about Dorothy’s and Sierra’s souls, and welcome the opportunity for them to be exposed to the Gospel. Jesus didn’t shy away from associating with ‘bad’ people, after all.
kagato23
Not to mention that as bad people go, the athesit who doesn’t speak up a lot about it and the girl with no shoes are pretty low risk associations.
Seriously. How the hell is no shoes but religious girl even that off putting? She’s a sanitary concern at best, not a spiritual one.
Joyce is also crazier than most of the religious people I meet in real life.
PedanticJerkass
Yeah, it’s like Mary exists here to make Joyce not look so bad by comparison, but Joyce is still way out there herself.
DarkVeghetta
Least’ she’s brave and a genuinely nice person. No matter the brand of crazy she believes in, I’d still hang out with her. Heck, my oldest best friend believes in dozens of conspiracy theories and quasi-magical bullshit ala ‘free energy’ and I shudder to think what other physics-defying nonsense – he’s still a great friend, even if terribly annoying at times due to sed brand of crazy.
He didn’t masturbate, he just didn’t spill his cum into the woman he had promised to make babies with. We have no idea whether he masturbated or not, we just know that in a society that mistreated women, he was cursed by God for lying to a woman he promised to make a baby with. Women were valued for having babies–she wanted a baby, and keeping that from her would be the equivalent of a modern man keeping a woman from going to work. The society was twisted, but God punished the man for shaming that woman in her society–treating her like a whore, instead of giving her what he promised. Onan promised her commitment, but he was just bein a playa. God was concerned about the treatment of the woman. So he smited the man who treated her like a whore. God could have smited the entire society, but he was merciful. THAT’s the story of Onan. It has nothing whatsoever to do with masturbation. Genesis 38.
I get the feeling you were being sarcastic, but it works… Roz is probably out so much that Mary can get her “evil time” easily, so she doesn’t want to complain about it or start anything with Roz because that would mess things up.
Or she isn’t a hypocrite but figures that as long as she has to room with evil it’s better to be with someone even she won’t bother trying to change. I’m betting on the first one, but you never know…
Discussion (387) - “Avoid”
Uniqueantique
To many Marys in this world.
Aizat
Like I said, it’s people like her that give religion a bad name.
David Herbert
“Shot through the heart, and you’re to blame.”
mechaqua
YOU GIVE GOD A BAD NAME!
some one did this joke yesterday i think it was kernator.
Kernanator
Yup!
I have to admit, I hadn’t expected the enthusiastic response I go to that comment. I hadn’t gotten anything like that since the time I suggested that Willis put “Dina Summaries” of each in-universe day.
Fluffy776
The “Holy than thou” attitude drives me nuts, even when they’re my own religion/political party. But I notice it more with people who are atheist than people who aren’t, though not by a large margin.
George
I think every group has an equally large percentage of “holier than thou” members, but only by other groups’ standards. Every religion, party, or other group has something its members believe is true but practically nobody else does, so any time people talk about that “truth” they’ll annoy outsiders long before other group members. However, a lot of really “holier than thou” people will cross that line pretty quickly, hence why more rational people like you and I don’t notice a large gap.
begbert2
You mean you find lots of atheists who think they’re holier than thou? Odd. I’d think it would be significantly easier to find atheists who’re ‘smartier than thou’ – ones who find theistic beliefs to be too problematic at some intellectual or moral level to put up with (or at a less abrasive level, to ‘respect’). I can see that having roughly the same end result though.
icepyrox
Whether they are holy or “smart”, it’s still looking down on others. Also, I’ve found many atheists would be better described as believing there is no God as opposed to lacking a belief in any god, which makes them just as fervent as any Christian about their beliefs.
begbert2
Fervency is relative; I believe that there’s no Christian god with absolute certainty because of the internal contradictions. This is the same sort of fervent belief I have in 1+1 equaling 2 and in gravity existing. On the subject of many non-christian gods I believe there is no god the same way I believe there are no unicorns. It’s real disbelief, but let me get a good look at one (I have a lab table ready, complete with straps!), and I’ll readily change my tune.
As for looking down on others, yes, some of us do that; I certainly wasn’t saying otherwise. I personally have a tendency to look down on people who cling to silly beliefs, theistic or not. I was merely getting picky about using the term ‘holier than thou’ to describe my particular brand of snobbery.
Cronomatt
So in other words your trying to fulfill the stereotype you mentioned.
That makes you the most unreliable source possible. By calling them ‘silly beliefs’, you have proven yourself to be more then a little bit closed minded. Closed minded usually means stupid. Not in all situations, but its a slippery slope. Even if I was an atheist, which in another life I could have been, to assume one is always right is egotistical.
So, as a smarter then thou, do you believe yourself to be smarter then any believers. Its better to admit your egotistical, then to beat around the bush like most smarter then thou’s would.
begbert2
I don’t have to try to fulfill a stereotype. I am a human. I have human flaws. I am burdened by a hubris that comes easily to one that (believe it or not) actually has found that for periods of my life many things came more easily to my understanding than they did to others.
(That period is over – I’m getting older and my memory has gotten incredibly spotty. But the hubris learned in my youth is a hard-to-shed habit.)
My ego doesn’t make me an unreliable source, though. It doesn’t help my arguments, but it doesn’t weaken them either. My arguments stand alone.
Not that I’m actually *making* any arguments against religion at the moment. I’m just baldly stating that after a great deal of analysis, most of which I did before my brain went, I have come to certain conclusions about the likelihood of various types of deity existing. Some of these conclusions were summarized above.
Having reached these conclusions, I see others to whom these issues seemingly haven’t even crossed their mind. I forget how much deliberation it took me to reach my conclusions and wonder at these people’s abilities to overlook the obvious.
Not that all of these conclusions require a lot of deliberation. Some beliefs are just silly.
And thinking that doesn’t make me stupid. Regardless of how convenient it would be to some people to dismiss my conclusions so handily.
Khrene Cleaver
To summarize Begbert, you made an ad hominem attack, and this ain’t a debate on morals.
Khrene Cleaver
None the less really a debate.
Zababcd
Cronomatt, please improve punctuation and wording before suggesting that another poster with correct writing practices is stupid. It is very difficult to resist posting a long list of errors that need to be corrected, which would make both of us look bad.
Luxlucis
If cronomatt has writing errors I would hardly think that makes her arguments less valid. She could very well be a non native english speaker.
lightsabermario
Ease off my brother. He’s intelligent, but he’s not the grammar and spelling guru of the family.
Somebody
That’s called hypocrisy, man!
DarkVeghetta
To be fair, using ad hominem to discredit someone using ad hominem is a bit backwards. Still, it does prove he’s sloppy at least. Also, non-native isn’t an excuse when you’re trying to have a debate, since there are standards that must be upheld for a debate to exist in the first place. To be fair, using ‘your’ instead of ‘you’re’ is hardly under that
standard.
However, do note that ‘silly beliefs’ isn’t nearly as close minded as you might think it is. Most believers think that those not of their faith are either idiots/ignorant/evil/misguided/close minded/etc – all of which strike me as extremely condescending. Point is we all consider our beliefs to be superior to the other ones, otherwise we’d use those instead. Hence, ‘silly beliefs’ merely uses less sugar to coat the innate condescension mostly everyone has when tackling this sort of debate. This does not take away from his argument, it just makes him less amiable (still a mistake if you’re trying to be convincing though).
Somebody
I think most people believe contradictory and/or unproven things.
DarkVeghetta
@icepyrox largely depends on their environment. I can guarantee that atheists that had/have religion pushed in their faces all day long will be MUCH more acerbic then those that are lucky enough not to have to deal with such. Therefor it is a case of ‘annoyed/angry to the point of rage’ rather then belief. In other words, no – lacking belief still is lacking belief, but some are more angry/annoyed about the fact that it’s considered abnormal to lack a faith in most societies (not to mention consequences thereof, see comic above for just one of the many many situations one can encounter as a atheist).
Anger can create passion, it’s that passion you mistake for
belief.
Dr. Worm
Yeah, George is right here: every political or religious (or atheist) group has “holier than thou” people in about the same concentration, except of course in a cult scenario where you’re kind of required to be like that. We just tend to notice the ones in groups we disagree with more, because they’re the ones we run into more.
ConnorElzaim
I imagine by and large it’s also more a case of the attitude being more apparent to those outside the clutch of a belief, I will not deny that I’ve come across many internet atheists who lacked any sort of tact of humility for their personal beliefs, but in my experience it has always ‘seemed’ like those professing a belief in the Christian god touted this attitude more, that said, again it’s all a matter of perspective, the amount total with this actual attitude may vary greatly from what is perceived by the individual and what is actual H.T.T tude versus the grey areas of followers to a belief.
DarkVeghetta
Funny thing – ‘tact’ won’t make an argument more or less valid, but humans tend to ignore anything that comes from an aggravating source. Meaning that if you want PEOPLE to care about the sounds you make with your mouth-flaps, you’d better try to be likeable while you do it. Many fall short of this basic hurdle.
AManWithAPlanDoingThingsInAPlace
“Some people want to live their lives
Within the sound of a church bell
I wan to open a rescue shop
Within a yard of hell.”
Staying away from non-Christians and shunning then is the opposite of what Jesus wanted his followers to do. You’ll never lighten dark places if you don’t go in yourself with a light.
Oberon
The sad thing is that she’s ignoring the fact that Jesus hung out with tax collectors (the equivalent of extortionists, in the day), whores, thieves, and many other kinds of sinners. These, he said when challenged by the Pharisees for his practice, were those who needed to be saved. Hanging out with the righteous and pure accomplished nothing, they were already saved.
That’s not to say that Christians should hang out with people who are in the commission of sinful acts. Just that associating with a sinner isn’t an evil or sinful act. And avoiding a sinner isn’t in itself a righteous behavior, and is actually contrary to the teachings of Christ.
DarkVeghetta
She doesn’t strikes me as the sort of person to have Joyce’s courage. Or a nice person.
Jen Aside
So many Marys ruining it for Joyce =(
Gordon Blvd
SO many “Marys” in this world that ruin it for all us “Joyces” 🙁
Tualha
Mary should worry about her own soul and stay out of Joyce’s business. But then, how often do fundies do that?
Phlebas
Alternatively: Mary should be concerned about Dorothy’s and Sierra’s souls, and welcome the opportunity for them to be exposed to the Gospel. Jesus didn’t shy away from associating with ‘bad’ people, after all.
kagato23
Not to mention that as bad people go, the athesit who doesn’t speak up a lot about it and the girl with no shoes are pretty low risk associations.
Seriously. How the hell is no shoes but religious girl even that off putting? She’s a sanitary concern at best, not a spiritual one.
Khrene Cleaver
I guess Mary is that anal?
Kintrex
Joyce is also crazier than most of the religious people I meet in real life.
PedanticJerkass
Yeah, it’s like Mary exists here to make Joyce not look so bad by comparison, but Joyce is still way out there herself.
DarkVeghetta
Least’ she’s brave and a genuinely nice person. No matter the brand of crazy she believes in, I’d still hang out with her. Heck, my oldest best friend believes in dozens of conspiracy theories and quasi-magical bullshit ala ‘free energy’ and I shudder to think what other physics-defying nonsense – he’s still a great friend, even if terribly annoying at times due to sed brand of crazy.
Ambitious
As of today, your gravatar is Mary making a disgusted face complaining about the number of Marys in the world.
Uniqueantique
First? First for me.
Pat
Well done.
Reboot
Shoeless = Evil?
mechaqua
all those pictures of satan do you see him wearing shoes? no cause he’s rockin hoofs. Blessed be to Adidas, Nike and Reebok.
Stephen Bierce
Don’t forget Converse! 😉
mechaqua
Converse in league with Satan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
iSaidCandleja-
Well, not Nike. That whole goddess of child labor thing…
mechaqua
BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!! 🙂
L
MADNESS!!!
Rex Hondo
ONANISM!!!
Hannover Fist
TRIBADISM!!!
MichaelHaneline
ONAN! My god that man was great!
ONAN! He loved to masturbate!
His name was Onan! That man he was a jewel!
ONAN! He tended to his tool!
(Lyrics to my favorite song about a Judeo-Christian hero figure.)
Petre Pan
He didn’t masturbate, he just didn’t spill his cum into the woman he had promised to make babies with. We have no idea whether he masturbated or not, we just know that in a society that mistreated women, he was cursed by God for lying to a woman he promised to make a baby with. Women were valued for having babies–she wanted a baby, and keeping that from her would be the equivalent of a modern man keeping a woman from going to work. The society was twisted, but God punished the man for shaming that woman in her society–treating her like a whore, instead of giving her what he promised. Onan promised her commitment, but he was just bein a playa. God was concerned about the treatment of the woman. So he smited the man who treated her like a whore. God could have smited the entire society, but he was merciful. THAT’s the story of Onan. It has nothing whatsoever to do with masturbation. Genesis 38.
Makkabee
Our house… in the middle of our street!
Arkadi
Sierra wears her Sunday best!
Daeva
This conversation thread gives me an idea…
Create a pair of shoes that shout out “HAIL SATAN” with every sixth step!
Rimaslxbya
Or every 666th step, and don’t even advertise it! That way it scares the crap out of whoever gets them!
KresyAntics
All you have to do is venture over to the Order of the Stick… Belkar the resident evil halfing… self proclaimed “A Sexy Shoeless God of War”
http://www.giantitp.com
mechaqua
Joyce’s all like bongoes be crazy! and Dorothy’s like word.
Rikushadow5
Word.
Buckybone
B-Word.
lightsabermario
If you’re havin’ girl problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a b-word ain’t one.
fellixe
To your mother
Fred
For a nickel
Khrene Cleaver
With her penis
DarkVeghetta
On her FAAACE
Wonder Wig
How do you live with Roz as your roomate with that attitude?
Reboot
Rampant nudity?
Tristan J
It solved all my problems so far.
George
I get the feeling you were being sarcastic, but it works… Roz is probably out so much that Mary can get her “evil time” easily, so she doesn’t want to complain about it or start anything with Roz because that would mess things up.
Or she isn’t a hypocrite but figures that as long as she has to room with evil it’s better to be with someone even she won’t bother trying to change. I’m betting on the first one, but you never know…
Valdrax
In a simmering cloud of passive-aggressive mutually intolerant scorn?
DarkVeghetta
That just reeks of hatesex to me.
Gundi
Joyce just gave an awesome Buuuuuuurn!
Charles RB
She gave the OTHER b-word!
Jehosaphat