236

Agoraphobia
Posted on October 2, 2015 by David M Willis

236 thoughts on “Agoraphobia”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    “If it’s a friend who’s a therapist, try someone else. Also, why the heck would y’all know anyone like that.”

    1. Detective Boomwolf

      Hey, you never know what kinda perks there are in having a therapist for a friend.

      1. gkheyf

        one such perk is that any time you get on their bad side, they are well-equipped to convince you that you’re in love with your mother

        1. inqntrol

          With that kind of manipulation,they could take control of the governments!

        2. Deathjavu

          Freud really only exists in pop psychology these days, more of a historical figure than anything else. Most of his theories have been discredited.

          But his mental association with psychology persists in the general population despite this fact, like PETA being associated with animal rights.

        3. Rheinman

          People Eating Tasty Animals?

        4. Boomwolf

          Pork Eradicating Treacherous Assassins?

        5. Deathjavu

          More like People Eradicating coevolved species that can no longer survive without humans.

          That broke down somewhere in the middle there.

        6. Disloyal Subject

          TOO SUBTLE.

          (I sincerely hope that someone gets the reference, but rather doubt it. It’s just too subtleobscure.)

        7. gkheyf

          Drew Carey?

        8. Disloyal Subject

          Oinkbane, actually. Not really this crowd’s thing., but I couldn’t resist.

        9. ShadowCougar

          Yeah.. having met at least one psychologist (In a non professional manner) Who was still a firm believer in Freud’s work.. it can happen. (Ok, so this was about 12 years ago, and I know the field changes fairly rapidly) Of course she was the same person who told me (Knowing me only through interactions at school, we were both students) that I desperately needed mental help.

        10. ProfessorChump

          Yes, if you have limited exposure to psychological practice (and this is also true of most therapists who have little idea of the depths of the abyss they spend their time in) you do not easily realize how diverse opinions within the field are. Anti-freudians and pro-freudians are like internet surfers constantly exposing themselves only to the views that they already agree with and dismissing any encounter with the other side as a cringeworthy fringe worthy (heh heh). Simple truth: there are no real standards within psychotherapy. Everybody tends to mistake correlation with causation and assumes they are responding to a particular therapy when they begin to get better. The subject of human minds and behavior is awesomely complicated, but nobody gets to go on TV and become famous by saying “I really have no idea what is happening here” so we get a lot of explanations, platitudes and certainty with little to no actual back up; kind of like medicine in general . . .

        11. Lin

          His theories are still taken pretty seriously AS THEORIES by people in a number of fields, just not as empirical fact. As Tim Dean says, I knew that I hated Freud without ever bothering to read him, just like every other good queer. Then I read him. And actually, some of his theories are interesting/useful. They’re just not observable facts.

        12. Shikome Kido Mi

          His specific theories perhaps. His general theories, such as that subconscious motives can affect the conscious mind, which is something he made popular, remain staples of psychology.

          It’s just all the details that turned out to be off.

        13. Rowen Morland

          Why did you say “pop psychology”?

        14. Furie

          To be fair, that guy had been stealing from me. Plus he didn’t take all that much convincing.

      2. someone

        There’s some nice perks to having Kiley from MA3 as your therabuddy.

        1. DarkVeghetta

          Giggity.

        2. Roborat

          As long as you don’t have enormous breasts.

      3. Jack Faire

        They will tell you that your coffee cups are so big they might as well have nipples on them and that you are needy codependent and always wanting everyone else to define you. Then they might avoid you like the plague.

        1. 1958Fury

          *Captain America voice* I understood that reference.

      4. Lin

        Actually, I have a number of therapists for friends. LITERALLY the last thing that they want to do is therapize their friends. I have a friend who has a hard-core moratorium on ever discussing work or giving advice about emotional or psychological struggles beyond “that sounds hard. You should talk to a professional who is not me.” I love her for it.

    2. Historyman68

      Try having a therapist for a mom

      1. wotsthisollabout

        or a wife

        1. DarkVeghetta

          Sounds kind of hot, actually.

  2. otusasio451

    Aw, they’re bonding. What they’re bonding over is inherently depressing, but aw, they’re bonding!

    1. Bagge

      Huh, I zooned out and started to think about Ruth and Billie for some reason

  3. Plasma Mongoose

    The difference between therapist and the rapist is the amount of space.

    1. JustCheetoDust

      Some people are incapable of making that distinction.

      1. Plasma Mongoose

        I can kinda understand why.

        1. JustCheetoDust

          What I don’t understand is how Darrell Hammond can play a bizarre caricature of Sean Connery but manages to fuck up his Colonel Sanders gig for KFC commercials in the U.S.

        2. suchipi

          God, RIGHT?

      2. WolfLann

        THAT is exactly what came to my mind when I saw PM’s post

    2. bodmans

      I see what you did there ;D

      1. Plasma Mongoose

        Nice to know my statement was understood. 😀

  4. Opus the Poet

    I have had some therapists who helped me, but the ratio of help to non-help or worse is less than half.

    1. Ana Chronistic

      Therapy is pretty hit-or-miss, much like making friends.

      1. davidbreslin101

        EXACTLY like making friends. And I don’t make friends easily. It took eight years to match me with a therapist who knew how to deal with me. He’s amazing.

        1. de Combys

          You’re lucky! It took 15 years for me, found her at 23, but cuoldn’t keep her because it was a 6 week intensive therapy. When I finally got a follow-up (2 years later), the therapist was a bongo. I rely on my friends more ever since.

        2. DarkVeghetta

          The therapist in question became a… .
          Ok. So, the lowland or the mountainous variety?

        3. Pope William T Wodium

          Did a search for “bongo therapy.” The results were not what I expected.

        4. Void

          I love the word filter.

    2. Failed by the System

      Sal is right, therapists are worthless, Joyce is better off talking to a friend if she has to talk anyone at all. Joyce could also just need some time to recover from the tramua. Too many think of therapy can help immediately but it takes time to build up a bridge of trust. Also HIPAA tends to be more of a suggestion rather then hard and fast rules. YMMV

      1. Leorale

        I’m sorry the system failed you. That sucks and I hope you found strategies that work way better for you than your bad shrinks did.

      2. Smiling Cat

        Your first sentence is inherently harmful. The horrible part is that you even explain why it’s awful later in your post. Therapy isn’t an instant cure, it takes time. Some can’t take the time, others won’t.

        Worse yet is the assumption that friends are inherently equipped to help you or would even know where and how to begin.

        1. Leorale

          The person’s signin was ‘Failed by the System’, is why I said that the system failed them. I can’t insist that the system didn’t fail them, when they know their situation way better than I do and they said it failed them.

        2. TJ Pittsburgh

          Smiling Cat is responding to Failed by the System, not you (Leorale).

        3. Leorale

          Oh, my mistake!

        4. DudeMyDadOwnsADealership

          I, on the other hand, am assuming a Therapist and a Psychologist are two different professions much in a same way a Mercenary and a Career Soldier aren’t the same. Is “Therapist” what they’ve started calling Psychologists or are they technically different in practice like I think? I’m asking.

        5. Failed by the System

          No I assume that talking about it could/might help, and friends should be able to lend an ear. But those that say talking about it could/will help, are usually the same worthless therapists/psychologists. YMMV

      3. WolfLann

        Sal’s not the only one not believing in therapists
        http://tmi-comic.com/comic/good-counsel-3/

        1. Smiling Cat

          Here’s the horrible truth I learned struggling with major clinical depression with suicidal ideation.

          Odds are, the system WILL fail you, lots of times. It seemed like almost every time I got a good therapist, they’d get transfered to another department right out from under me. And I ran into some bad ones too.

          Even so, people that were in my mental state COULDN’T cope on their own. And the odds of having a friend who was equipped to really help them are like winning the lottery. The only thing I could do was keep stumbling along until I could find someone who could help me. I don’t like Obama, but his healthcare program probably saved my life.

          The mental health industry isn’t a good option. It’s a horrible mess tied up in all kinds of screwed up bullshit. The horrible truth though is that for some of us it’s still the best option we have.

      4. Ana Chronistic

        It’s *better* (but still not the best) to say that Joyce should talk to a friend first, but then seek therapy when the friend ultimately stops being helpful. Friends will eventually get tired of being your shoulder if you aren’t making progress, but therapists are paid to be there for you, PLUS they have resources (references, perspective, etc.) that your friends most likely won’t have.

    3. Smiling Cat

      I got lucky once for therapists. Then the county cut mental health funding and I was on my own. When I got health coverage again, the therapist I ended up with one who dispensed advice based on stuff she read on oprah’s website.

      Regardless, the experience was of significant help to me, even if the individuals were occasionally shit.

  5. brionl

    Sal, you know she’s going to want to talk to you now.

    1. Plasma Mongoose

      Slippery slope.

    2. gkheyf

      sal sometimes says the right thing without thinking

      1. gkheyf

        –it through*

        don’tcha hate getting cut off?

        1. fogel

          It

        2. fogel

          Happens

        3. Deanatay

          SSSH-!

        4. TJ Pittsburgh

          It does.

  6. Mada

    Y’know, conceivably Joyce could try and talk to Amazi-Girl about this…I mean they are on somewhat better terms after the Whiteboard Ding-Dong Bandit incident.

    1. dailybrad

      Amazi-Girl would definitely be receptive, and is already aware of the situation, so they’d be an option.

      1. gkheyf

        and she keeps late hours and told joyce to get in touch. it’ll be like a psychologically-healthy booty-call!

        …which is how i imagine the amazi-signal

        1. Inkblot

          Plus, seeing Amazi-girl holds some tough memories– it would be a good way to deal with those as well, methinks.

    2. Agemegos

      Blind leading the blind, in-need-of-therapy-wise.

      1. BenRG

        Sal ends up running a three-person self-help group of herself, Joyce and Amber? Ruth keeps on “dropping in to make sure you’re not up to stuff” but participates more often than not. Sarah just hangs around in the background, announcing loudly that she’s doing stuff and not listening at all.

  7. Mandy

    Sal: deceivingly actually one of the best people in the entire comic.

    1. JessWitt

      Yeah, right behind Leslie.

    2. sps48

      Decievingly?

      1. gkheyf

        she may have meant ‘deceptively’. i’d look into it, but i’m trying to wean myself off of studying grammar

        1. Deanatay

          At her age, I’m sure she loves the attention. 😉

        2. de Combys

          That was creepy

      2. Mandy

        I just meant under the rough/harsh exterior. Forgive me if I phrased it wrong!

      3. DudeMyDadOwnsADealership

        Means Sal’s a Paradox.

  8. Doctor_Who

    Sal: Promise me you’ll talk to someone about this, you’ll stop asking to ride my motorcycle, an’ you’ll stop being so damned cheerful in the mornin’.

    Joyce: Done.

    Sal: An’ I’m Queen of th’ Ponies.

    Joyce: NEVER.

    1. inqntrol

      FIGHT!

  9. Nick Piers

    Man, Sal is really therapissed about counsellors, isn’t she?

    Eh? TheraPISSED? *nudge nudge* Ehhhhhh?

    1. Jess

      And least you didn’t make the Therapist to The/rapist connection…

      1. gkheyf

        especially with that gravatar

        1. Nick Piers

          Ew, no. I have better standards of comedy than that.

          Plus, to be fair, Joe’s a pig, but I’d say even he draws the line at nonconsensual sex.

        2. Inkblot

          He says as much, too!

        3. gkheyf

          right, joe is on the record as anti-rape. i just meant that the pic had a suggestive smile that would look creepy in the context of that discussion

        4. Nick Piers

          (Also, for those just joining in, my gravatar was previously of Joe but I guess my gravatar picture change finally went through.

      2. HMRC4EVR

        I’m glad you explained the reference. I didn’t get that wordplay at all.

  10. Bagge

    Joyce was all [panel two] and Sal was all [panel three] and I was all [Joyce in panel four].

  11. Viktoria

    Advice: If you need a therapist, SHOP AROUND. Get a list and try one, and if you feel uncomfortable or they’re not accepting/understanding of your problems, scratch that name and try a different one. You wouldn’t buy a car without a test drive, and this is far more important and far harder to get right.

    1. Kelly

      Very much this!

    2. gkheyf

      yes, but imagine if to test drive a car you have to first put a spike on the steering wheel and undo your seat belt before getting on the highway. it is a good idea, but it can be scary and make you feel vulnerable each and every time. not everything that’s necessary is easy

      1. Leorale

        It is simple, difficult, and a good idea.
        (Which, for me, is kinda like everything about therapy.)

      2. ExplorerRowan

        It’s scary and in some ways risky, as hunting for the right one sometimes takes time you don’t have when you’re in a bad place. I had to go through 4 counselors, and spent 4 to 10 sessions with each, before determining that they weren’t good fits and I arrived at my current one. But I’ve been seeing my current counselor for over 2 years now, and though progress has been slow and has taken a lot of hard and scary work on my part, I am in a much better place than I was.

        1. ExplorerRowan

          Tips for therapist hunting:
          1. Check the degrees on the wall. There are some dodgy sorts with no actual training. (Be especially wary of spiritual/religious/Christian counselors, even if you’re spiritual, religious, or Christian yourself, and even if they’re willing to work for cheap or free as an “outreach.” There is ZERO training required to start calling yourself one of those.)
          2. Again, check the degrees on the wall. I’ve known people who have gotten great help from students, and obviously they need real-world experience to finish their degrees/licenses. However, if you’re asking the question “yeah, but will I get help fast enough?” you want someone already a pro.
          3. If you don’t know where to start looking for a therapist, but you have insurance, ask your GP. Most GPs will freely admit that while they’re good at healing bodies, they would be happy to send you to someone better trained at healing the mind.
          4. If you don’t have insurance, likely because you live in a terrible state like mine, do not be afraid of local low-cost and sliding-scale clinics. My current counselor is at a low-cost clinic, and she’s fantastic. Every mental health practitioner who works at a clinic like that is there because they want to be. Also, because such places are invariably under heavy scrutiny by jerk state & local governments who finance them, they’re usually quite good at their jobs in order to stave off getting their budget yanked out from under them.
          5. If you’re already at a place where you think there’s a risk of hurting yourself, you are way past the point of hunting for a counselor/therapist on your own, and you need to go to a hospital. I’ve done that myself. All you have to do is tell the nearest person in scrubs “hey, I’m in a bad place, and I think I need some help before I hurt myself.” I promise you, they will drop everything to make arrangements for you. (You might end up in a waiting room for a while with some poor orderly trying to make awkward conversation while keeping an eye on you, like I did, but they will not leave you by yourself. And you might scoff, but another human’s presence actually does help when you’re in that place.)

    3. Badtux

      Unfortunately it’s kinda hard to find a therapist if you’re a student without any outside financial resources (’cause Joyce certainly isn’t going to ask her *parents* for money for a therapist, they’d refer her to a fundamentalist preacher instead, and a fundamentalist preacher preaching that women must submit to men most likely is *not* what she needs right now). The college has a counselling office but they’re almost always young and inexperienced and you never know what you’ll get. So while Sal might be overly cynical about therapists in general, she may be right about therapists that Joyce has access to…

      1. Roch the Crusher

        Oh come now. Be fair. No Christian fundamentalist is ever going to bring up “wives submit to your husbands” in the context of sexual assault at a party. Rape is a stoning offense in the Old Testament.

        What a fundie MIGHT say is, “Thank the Lord that He provided a way out as early as he did,” and, “In future, you should stay away from alcohol, drunk people, and situations where you’re alone with guys you don’t know really well.” None of which is truly awful advice, even if it’s not the best place to start. (I know all about victim blaming, but that’s far from a uniquely Christian problem.)

      2. Leorale

        I struck gold with my free-to-the-gradstudents counselor. He probably wasn’t perfect, but that’s okay, neither am I, and he was still super helpful. Young people can be good, too.

    4. Lin

      Also: you can leave in the middle of a session. It was incredibly freeing to me to realize that if I knew that it wasn’t going to work with a therapist, I didn’t have to actually sit through the whole intake.

      I walked out the first time that my to-be-therapist kept referring to my eating disorder (anorexia) with suggestions for bulimia groups, apparently because I’m chubby and no anorexic people are fat. The first time, I corrected her. The second time, I corrected her. The third time, I said “this isn’t working, I’m leaving” and left. That all happened in half an hour. It was amazing to realize that I am allowed to set the terms of my therapy and take care of my own safety.

  12. epershannd

    Sal…!! This is such a weirdly feel good strip. I love seeing Sal’s sensitivity and taking care of her friends (even if she might not consider Joyce a ‘friend’).

  13. miados

    therapists can be good but finding the right one is a long painful process that means finding a lot of them and if you don’t have a good variety to try out it is unlikely to find one who will mesh well with you. I have had dozens of them myself and only one was any good.

  14. dailybrad

    Sal’s a good egg.

  15. Zaidyer

    Sal speaks the unvarnished truth, unfortunately

    at least in Indiana

    1. JessWitt

      What’s varnished truth like? Is it shiny and slippery?

      1. Plasma Mongoose

        Is varnished better than tarnished?

      2. sps48

        Varnished truth looks better than it really is.

        1. Deanatay

          It’s water-resistant though!

        2. No Name

          It is, however, highly flammable.

    2. Nym

      I know one great one and one who seemed pretty decent one in Indy! The second I say, “seemed,” because I only was able to see her a couple of times before Indy was too far away, so I can’t judge how she’d be long-term. . . . On the flip side, I know or know of lots and lots of terrible Indiana therapists.

  16. JessWitt

    I’m glad Sal’s my avatar.

  17. John

    It’s a little late for Joyce to try that method of meeting therapists, Sal. Maybe Riley could do it.

    1. inqntrol

      After Mary stared into her soul and Sarah yelled at her she might have one already.

  18. Anima

    Ugh therapists, psychologists and the like have such a bad rep. You don’t hear people saying not to ever go to a medical doctor even though they can be just as shitty.

    Where the heck is Dorothy, dammit.

    1. Agemegos

      Get me started on cardiologists.

      I just sacked my new ophthalmologist.

      And now that I think of it, I’ve been having trouble with GPs since the last good guy left town.

    2. sps48

      Real medical doctors have a much better understanding of what is wrong and how to fix it. Results are usually notable and definable.
      Therapists don’t have good methods to discern the problem ,and their toolbox is very limited in comparison.
      DOn’t get me started on Palmer chiropractors or homeopaths (cough *bullshit* cough)

      1. Dave

        “Real” doctors rely on matching up symptoms in the exact same manner that a psychologist does. Guesswork is always going to be part of the equation; in both cases you apply the treatment you think will help based on the symptoms you observe, and sometimes you get it wrong because those symptoms are shared by multiple conditions.

        Lumping a therapist in with the likes of homeopaths is akin to putting a meteorologist in the same category as an astrologist.

        1. Tan

          I mean, to be fair, they both look up at the sky and try to tell the future…

        2. Majere

          Yes but one of them uses science and the other uses magic.

      2. davidbreslin101

        There’s some truth in that. The science behind most modern medicine is very advanced, but mental illness is still poorly understood. The various modern schools of therapy mostly mix a bit of solid science in with some untested theories and some things worked out by practical trial and error. They work, but not always and not for everyone. A good therapist recognises this and can be flexible in their approach, finding out what works for their patient. A bad one blames the patient for “doing it wrong”, because The One True Theraputic Method MUST be right.

    3. Nym

      Probably because the requirements for becoming a therapist are so varied and much less rigorous than becoming a medical doctor, a bad therapist can make things much worse without the ability to sue them for malpractice or other recourse besides leaving a bad review online, and psychologists (in Indiana and in my experience, at least) have gatekeepers to the point it’s impossible to get an appointment without a serious initial reason and/or reference from another doctor, so sometimes their reputation suffers from being lumped together with therapists from people who don’t know the difference. IME, unless your GP isn’t confident in his ability to balance your meds, they’ll take care of that side of things and recommend you keep searching for a therapist instead.

      1. Dragon_Nataku

        No GP should ever be screwing around trying to prescribe psychiatric meds unless the issue is mild depression. There are incredibly serious side effects for meds for the more serious disorders that require more monitoring than the once a year people generally see their primary doctor.

    4. Disloyal Subject

      “You don’t hear people saying not to ever go to a medical doctor even though they can be just as shitty.”
      As a matter of fact, I do. I don’t follow the advice, but I do hear it on a fairly regular basis.

      1. li

        I wouldn’t say I’ve heard it as advice, but I have heard a lot of people whose experiences with doctors were so relentlessly horrible that they tried to avoid it whenever possible.

        Unfortunately since they were mostly poor people in chronic pain, they usually couldn’t actually avoid going, it was just an experience they braced themselves for and were left shaken by.

  19. Stephen R. Bierce

    *plays The James Gang’s “Walk Away” on the hacked Muzak*

  20. newllend(henryvolt)

    Did one of those therapist do family group therapy or where Sal’s mom and dad toon cheap to consider it ? Must be that because Walky seems to have a dozen issues he’s not working out.

    1. newllend(henryvolt)

      *were

    2. No Name

      I think it’s more the Walkerton parents, Linda especially, didn’t think Walky had any problems, so why bother?

      1. timemonkey

        Walky’s nice and controllable, just how she wants him.

    3. pyrpyr

      I’d be inclined to think not that they were too cheap, but that they (Mrs. Walkerton especially) were too in denial of their own faults to consider *family* therapy necessary.

      1. Leorale

        Yeah, they probably just wanted the therapist to go someplace else and fix the problem child.

      2. StClair

        “There’s nothing wrong with this family, just… her!”

  21. Nym

    Sal is a good person.

  22. Deathjavu

    Statistically negligent? That’s science talk, Joyce. She is changing fast.

    1. Cephalo the Pod

      Joyce has always been good with math.

  23. Adept Arcanist

    It’s worse than we thought! Joyce is actually using -ghasp- SCIENTIFIC LANGUAGE!

  24. AgentKeen

    Is the ‘growing sense of dread’ in the poll specific to the comic, or just in general?

    1. Deathjavu

      Seconded. I clicked yes because that’s sure as hell the answer whenever I forget my meds…

  25. Chaucer59

    In defense of Joyce’s position on this matter, robbing a convenience store st thirteen doesn’t usually get you acquainted with good therapists. Mostly it gets you thrown at bored bureaucrats who just happen to have the necessary credentials to call themselves therapists.

    1. Leorale

      And Sal would’ve been there against her will, which generally makes it so much harder to get anything done / help teen-Sal at all.

      1. Leorale

        AND also I can’t imagine her family believed they had to change anything about their behaviours, just that the therapist should go fix their problem kid as quickly as possible. Everything was pretty much stacked against therapy working well for teen-Sal, wasn’t it.

        1. Disloyal Subject

          Aye.

      2. Bicycle Bill

        You got that right about seeing someone against your will or merely because someone else says you have to in order to get something (like your freedom or your driver’s license) back.  Been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt.

  26. Jeremy

    Sal, despite her gruff exterior is a pretty good person.

  27. timemonkey

    Things brings up some questions: Were Sal’s therapists actually shitty or did they just say things she didn’t want to hear? Did she open up and try or did she refuse to talk? Even a good therapist can only do so much without cooperation. And some are just shitty no matter what you do.

    1. Leorale

      And there’s no objective measurement for ‘good’ therapist. Even an awesome therapist won’t be good for everyone, you have to find one that’s the right fit for you and what you need. Sal, at age 13, had neither the power nor the inclination to do that.

    2. insomniac

      Cooperation seems unlikely. For people who keep emotions locked up, it can be hard even if they’re coming from a place of “this is something I need to change and have come to this person for help.” Never mind “I am literally forced to be here under threat of jail.”

    3. Willoughby Chase

      Indeed. I’ve seen a therapist and a psychiatrist. It worked for me because I bought in to the process from the start.

    4. Lin

      She was also in a restrictive environment kind of school/group living environment. Most of those places have “counselors” that aren’t actually trained therapists and tend to be invested in controlling behavior, not actually dealing with root concerns.

  28. Ben

    Sal, you are the best, and I will punch anyone who says otherwise… (even you, which means I’ll likely wind up taking more damage than I deal.)

  29. Arianod

    She may not like therapists, but she can do the math.

  30. Mollyscribbles

    Been there; you get acquainted with a lot of therapists when you’re a victim of bullying immediately post-Columbine with school administration convinced that the inciting factor was a victim of bullying who snapped. Never did anything to actually stop the kids harassing me in the middle of class, just told me to go wash my face after I stopped crying and sent me to five different counselors in two years.

    My litmus test for them: Say you’re having trouble with bullies. If they say “Ignore them and they’ll leave you alone,” feel free to zone out because they’re clearly idiots.

    1. brumagem

      It’s like our generation has forgotten that kids have to be penalized when they do bad things. When a kid’s being an asshole, tell him he’s being an asshole and punish them accordingly. Just don’t be an asshole yourself in following these instructions.

      1. li

        “Our generation”? Please. You can find educational shorts on “how to deal with bullies” from before TV was in color, and they all say to ignore them.

        1. Leorale

          Well, if the kids are taught to ignore the bullies, then the administrators get to ignore the problem, too! Everyone wins!

        2. Li

          Hahaha, this is a depressingly good point.

    2. BenRG

      Similar experience here, although I was firmly pre-Columbine. Maybe that’s why my year head teacher told me that she wished that I’d just come in one day and ‘beat up a few of them’ so she wouldn’t have to continually take time out of her day to deal with my problems.

      1. Mollyscribbles

        y’know, that might be why I never got in trouble the day I bought a black trenchcoat and started wearing it every day. It actually resulted in a reduction in the bullying.

    3. RP

      This happened to me pre-Comlumbine. Plenty of teachers and counselors are willing to tell the bullied kid that it is their fault for getting harassed to the point of tears. And it is never a problem until you start crying. As long as you keep quiet they get to pretend it isn’t happening.

  31. vlademir1

    First, Joyce is technically right that Sal has likely met a statistically insignificant number of therapists.
    Second, Sal is probably right that she hasn’t met one worth their shit. The reasons she had for dealing with them coupled with her family issues and being sent off to finish school strongly suggest she wouldn’t have received the quality nor amount of interaction she needed to.

    1. brumagem

      Child therapists are usually adult therapists who never made it.

      1. Leorale

        Nope, brumagem. I was in therapist-school for a bit, and the child/adolescent therapists-in-training had already declared that they wanted to work with that population. All the folks who were interested in suicide prevention or domestic violence or whatever were like “Wow, middleschoolers? That sounds hard, good luck!”

      2. BenRG

        I would imagine child therapy is a lot more difficult as they don’t have the same communications skills as adults to help them express themselves.

        1. Dragon_Nataku

          It’s also a completely different subset of courses to take if you know as an undergrad that you want to work with kids. Even though I had zero interest in working with kids I still ended up taking like four of the child psychology courses just to round out my psychology coursework.

  32. Idon'tcarenomore

    Totally love Sal. Always have.
    Best advice she could give, talk to someone. Joyce really needs to do just that.
    And now someone Joyce just adores, has her back. Good day for her hopefully.

  33. Boomwolf

    Sal… you went and became cool. For different, but right reasons. Ya done good.

  34. Badgermole

    How many people in the DOAverse Don’t need therapy (in the form of sorting out issues through talking to a friend or a professional or both), I’m wondering.

    … Dina, Dorothy, Sierra? And?

    1. No Name

      I think Becky is well adjusted. At the very least, she knows what’s wrong with her and what isn’t and has her emotional needs filled (with dinosaur facts).

      1. Leorale

        I dunno, I’d still want Becky to have a therapist on her team, if only for the *prevention* of horrible mental fallout from her very difficult situation.

        Danny seems to be figuring things out pretty okay. And background characters, like the Rachels. Mike does not need a therapist, it would only make him stronger.

    2. chris73

      Joe

      1. Leorale

        Joe could use some time to think and chat about his feelings. He just doesn’t wanna. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/fetishy/

        1. chris73

          In that case everybody in this comic and probably most of the world needs someone to talk to but I see Joe as someone thats more together then most

        2. Disloyal Subject

          Agreed. Everyone could use someone to talk to, but Joe is stable and… I wouldn’t call him happy, but at least satisfied.

        3. Leorale

          That’s true. I put the bar too low — Joe might benefit from deciding to think about his stuff, but he doesn’t *need* to. He likes his life how it is.

          Carla, Marcie, and Malaya all seem to be doing fine.

        4. Leorale

          Also Walky, and the 2nd-tier people (such as Raidah, Jacob, and Roz). Lots!

        5. Disloyal Subject

          I’d say Walky could really use someone to tell him to get his shit together, actually. His denial at Jason was… bad.
          I wouldn’t be surprised if Roz has a therapist she checks in with from time to time.

        6. masterofbones

          I always find it annoying when people say that someone isn’t happy, just because they have different things that make them happy. Joe is OBVIOUSLY happy with his current situation, and opportunities to see this have been common.

          Just because you wouldn’t be happy in his situation means nothing about how he feels.

        7. Disloyal Subject

          I am looking at this from his perspective. I might be misjudging, but I still wouldn’t go so far as to fall him happy. He’s having fun and fulfilling the responsibilities he’s accepted, so I’m not worried about him.

        8. Dragon_Nataku

          Granted I’m basing this on his other-universe existence, but usually whenever he talks about his parents’ divorce his happy face goes away.

    3. Gamaran Sepudomyn

      I think Daisy doesn’t need therapy either. Just a girlfriend. Because Willis loves to make us curse him, I’m going to guess that, when she does get one, it’ll turn out to be Mary.

    4. BenRG

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Dina had some manner of regimen of professional mental health care in her past (when her social development issues first started manifesting themselves) but I doubt that it is still ongoing today.

      1. li

        No, she’s undiagnosed so she probably hasn’t.

    5. Clif

      I think Dina has already benefited from “therapy in the form of sorting out issues with a friend or professional” from her conversations with Amber. Dorothy’s problems may not be serious, but she could use some help sorting out her relationship with Walky and while there is nothing wrong with planning to attend Yale and become president, someone needs to tell her that part of having the freedom to realistically tackle ambitious goals is to firmly have a plan B in place. We haven’t seen enough of Sierra of know what she might benefit from.

  35. dinobell

    i hope this isn’t too serious for the thread, but i was holding my breath on how sal would react and i was really happy to see this strip! i’ve been in joyce’s shoes before; it’s a horrible place to be, and opening up can be scary, but very, very worthwhile. can’t wait to read the rest!

  36. LimeSheep

    my therapist was pretty good, but i only had her for a little while and i havent had another one in a while

  37. Nate

    Sal was already pretty much my favorite character but this definitely cements it.

  38. Saaaam

    SAL THIS IS BAD ADVICE

    1. Leorale

      Talking to somebody she trusts about her crippling problem is *good* advice, though!

      1. Disloyal Subject

        Exactly. The advice is sound, and the condemnation of therapists is more of an opinion tacked on than part of the advice.

      2. MissQuinn

        Yeah, not to mention the notion of talking to a therapist is REALLY intimidating to some people. Sal maintaining that no, it doesn’t HAVE to be a professional, just somebody she trusts is actually better. Telling somebody “You need a shrink” tends to put them off. If she DOES need one perhaps seek one out later, but I’d say the best first step is talking to another human being before running off to a professional first thing.

      3. Rutee

        Sal’s got two parts of advice. One is good, one is bad. Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge both parts of this?

        1. Spencer

          I think with Sal, it’s not that “talk to a therapist” is inherently bad, it’s that her past experiences with therapy weren’t conductive to helping her with her own problems (I imagine most of them weren’t receptive to her talking about parental neglect and instead built a false narrative).

          In Sal’s case speaking with a close friend, somebody she can implicitly trust, works better than a figure of authority that’s been assigned to her. Joyce might be more receptive to it (and I think her dialogue in the last panel hints at that), though.

    2. Anomylous

      Nope, not bad advice. I’ve seen a few therapist types in my life; they were marginally helpful at best, and stunningly incompetent at worst.

      Some of my friends do say therapy helped them, and I know a therapist and a psychiatrist (family friends), both of whom are probably great at what they do based on what I know of them and their personalities. So, while I won’t say all therapists are worthless, I also don’t expect much help from them.

      And I would wholeheartedly second Sal’s advice of talking to a friend. It’s worked out great for me in the past. Though I have extreme good luck in the friends department and no particularly serious issues to begin with, so YMMV.

      1. Anomylous

        (Clarification: The friends who’ve helped me out most are NOT the licensed mental-health professionals, just people older/wiser/more emotionally aware than me.)

  39. Larkle

    I love how Sal’s condition is basically: I’ll help you with if you promise to help yourself.

  40. Disloyal Subject

    Statistical notability? Joyce is growing on me. First the Jurassic Park ToeDad joke, and now this… is Dina rubbing off on her in the short amount of time she’s spent hanging out with the Terrible Lizbians?

    1. BenRG

      Joyce is studying calculus. I strongly suspect that she has very strong math skills. That includes the ability to think in statistics.

      1. A Scientist

        If it hasn’t already happened, someone needs to introduce Joyce to the world of baseball sabrmetrics. She’s already set on identifying small sample sizes.

        Speaking of small sample sizes, I’ve had one therapist ever, and he was awesome.

        1. Arianod

          Ditto about the therapist. Mine helped me in ways that a friend or relative could never have done, because, unlike my friends and relatives, he had *trained* for it (duh) Did me a world of good. Sal means well, but she doesn’t know that Joyce is hallucinating: there’s very little your friends can do when your issues are that serious. And Joyce’s parents would suggest prayer (and maybe pull her out of college)

  41. BenRG

    I’ve got a feeling that Sal was told too many cheerful platitudes by too many court-appointed therapists to have too much faith in the art anymore.

    This was a lovely bit of character writing, though. I particularly like how Sal remains rough and detached in the way she speaks and acts. She does sympathise and she does want to help Joyce but that doesn’t stop her wanting to maintain her air of being cool and aloof.

    1. A Scientist

      Everyone uses platitudes, but no one bothers to use plongitudes. What’s up with that?

      ….I’ll show myself out.

    2. li

      Not necessarily. Therapists are human and that means that even though they’re not supposed to, she probably met a lot who passed judgment and treated her like an irredeemable thug.

      I’ve met a statistically insignificant number of therapists, but one of them blamed me at twelve for the problems not only in my relationship with my new stepdad but also for the problems in his relationship with my mom. Turns out he was having problems relating to his own stepdaughter and projected! My stepfather was emotionally abusive, but thanks to that experience I have never tried to talk about him to anyone.

      (That’s the worst therapist I ever saw, but the other… three, I think? Were all useless.)

      1. Rutee

        …that IS insignificant statistically. ‘4’ is not an acceptable sample size.

        I’ve had good and bad therapists. I don’t know how likely it is to find either. But they absolutely can be helpful. My sister’s had far better luck with them than me, for sure.

        Pehraps we were both insanely lucky – I don’t know.

        1. Rutee

          I apologize, you said as much re: significanc and I misread.

        2. Li

          Yeah, my point was pretty much just… you can be really unlucky, and you can have DRAMATICALLY bad experiences with therapists rather than just getting platitudes.

          And I wasn’t in as bad a situation as Sal — I wasn’t being forced to see therapists because of court order, and they didn’t have reason to be prejudiced against me. You know?

          I think mediocre therapists are more common than really bad ones (same as with any profession), but if you’ve had mostly mediocre and even just one really bad one it can kind of put you off the experience.

          And in Sal’s case, she’s more likely to have had bad experiences. You know?

  42. Palamdrone

    Over 9000!!!

  43. Anywhere

    Sal gives the best and also worst advice at the same time.

  44. Ashley

    This is honestly one of the sweetest interactions I’ve seen in the whole comic. Sal notices, worries, and tries to nudge Joyce in a direction that gets her help.

  45. Lucy

    This comic does a really great job of showing the long lasting effects of trauma. Seriously, the fact that they haven’t just brushed that arc from so long ago under the rug and forget about it like so many comics do is significant.

  46. Ainen

    It’s amazing to see how nearly every character has such an extremely high level of social sensitivity and emotional intelligence. If there was a girl I knew was drugged and assaulted at a party once but otherwise barely knew her and all I ever see is her being completely fine, then if I saw her acting stressed for seemingly no reason I totally wouldn’t be able to make a connection between the assault and her behavior.
    Makes it very realistic.

    1. MissQuinn

      Maybe his characters are less highly perceptive and more just not total assholes who know that hiding in a corner seemingly afraid to be alone in public is unusual for her and maybe that it might have come from that really traumatic incident where the highly sheltered naive girl who was alone in public for one of the first times in her entire life was nearly sexually assaulted? It’s not a hard connection to make.

    2. Ashley

      It’s also worthy of note, I think, that less time has happened in-universe.

  47. BenRG

    I think that Sal’s opened a door here. She’s at a loose end, possibly feeling a little abandoned and Joyce is pretty good at being a listening ear. I wouldn’t be surprised if either we get a few panels of Sal talking a little about her past (and maybe Joyce reciprocating) and both of them agreeing that they have demons they must face.

    Alternately, Willis will cut away for a few strips before coming back and inviting us to take it as read that they’ve had a heart-to-heart that has helped Joyce a bit and Sal too.

  48. Sammael

    Now I feel like I wasted my early teens.
    I never robbed a thing…

    1. Clif

      It’s never to late to become a criminal mastermind. But trust me, politics is where the real action is.

  49. saki

    Man, I love Sal.

  50. Majere

    Yeah, therapists generally aren’t very helpful if you’re actively combative and refuse to engage in anything resembling a meaningful or sincere way Sal.

  51. Björn

    Sal doesn’t like therapists very much. And Joyce doesn’t like the rapists very much.

    1. Sir Robin

      It’s right there in the name, “THE Rapists!”

      1. gkheyf

        Wow, I read through all these comments several times and missed the fact that ‘the rapists’ is exactly Joyce’s problem. Layered…

  52. DarkoNeko

    …did Joyce know about the convenience store thing forehand ?

    I swear, Sal blurt out some stuff like it’s nothing, when she feels inclined to (like at the party).

    1. Bicycle Bill

      Speaking from experience here — roughly thirty years ago I got busted three times in the space of four years for drunk driving and ended up spending the better part of four months in the county jail.  You learn to accept it.  It doesn’t have to be the lead topic of conversation or the first thing mentioned when introducing myself — “Hi, my name is Bill and I’ve served jail time!” — but it’s happened; you can’t change it; and I know that if I try to hide it or cover it up it’s almost guaranteed to come back at the worst possible time and bite me in the ass.  Seems like Sal has learned the same lesson in life. 

  53. Sporky

    “And I don’t wanna talk to a therapist / y’all motherfuckers lyin’, and gettin’ me pissed!”

  54. J1024

    http://www.engadget.com/2015/10/02/patreon-hack-data-dump/
    IF YOU USE PATREON, CHANGE YOUR PASSWORD. By no means am I trying to convince you to pull support, but you’ll definitely want to change your password to one you don’t use anywhere else.

  55. prime_pm

    “I’ll take THE RAPISTS for twenty, Alex.”

    1. Cattus99

      Well played, prime_pm, well played (I’ll take balloons for 50).

  56. Fairyth

    At least Sal is very perceptive. And while seeing a therapist would be very good, she is giving good advice to at least talk to SOMEone about it…

  57. M-M

    So, Sal got therapy and boarding school after the robbery, and Amber got martial arts lessons. Fascinating watching those two and the way that day informed their personas.

    1. m2iCodeJockey

      I have to agree with both Sal.5 and Joyce.6 but, self-righting Sal has Joyce pointing in the right direction.

      They each have a long way to go, you’d wonder: Could they both make it far enough to help Amber?

  58. Rheios

    Normally I might chock something like this up to Sal’s usual silly anti-authoritarian view of the world. But in this case I do have to agree. Therapists and their effect on people I know has led me to see them as a sympathetic shoulder to cry, at best, and a destructive shit-raker at worst. And nowhere in that spectrum do they earn the amount of what they charged.

  59. Lan Mikoto

    Sal is henceforth also known as the Truthslammer. I’ve had my fair share of therapists because I read “weird books” about science fiction when I was really young. Try being age six and reading the Hitchhiker’s Guide to The Galaxy just becuase certain words looked funny and the cover was pretty. Since then I’ve been told that I’ve got multiple things wrong with me, a hatred of anyone in that field, and just want to read my silly space fictions. Speak that truth Sal. Therapists suck eggs.

    1. saki

      While it’s true that therapists can’t help everyone, and some certainly are incompetent, I think you’re being way to harsh to an entire profession which is dedicated to helping people. How many mental breakdowns, acts of self-harm, suicides, murders and what have you have therapists prevented by helping people who had difficulties and were headed down bad paths? I almost certainly would have committed or at least attempted suicide years ago if it wasn’t for how much therapy has helped me.

      I know people who have been through traumatic instances, and, without a therapist, would not now live the life they’re living, might not have been able to get a job, might not have ever been able to leave their house without being accompanied by someone they trust, might not have ever been able to trust someone enough again to fall in love…
      Do I need to continue? I understand that you have had bad experiences, but please don’t condemn such an important professional based on that.

  60. spiderfan14

    I know what Joyce is going through. I was in two situations where I could’ve been sexually assaulted in just two years. I know how terrifying it is to think of “what if”, to feel like we invited this to happen by trusting people we had no reason not to, to feel terrible and ashamed this happened to us and not wanting to open up about it.

    I’ve struggled for months after the second incident where it was much scarier and I really felt like I was in danger. I just had a hard time to feel ok and I kept seeing it when I closed my eyes. This summer, I decided to talk to my cousin about it, as he said I could whenever I needed to. He said he’s glad I was able to avoid any harm, how it wasn’t my fault at all and that I was brave to tell him this, as it showed I trusted him a great deal.

    I love him and the words of encouragement he told me, but I still wasn’t feeling like I accomplished much. So later on, I went to the RAINN website to see if there was anything I could find for help. I found an online counsellor that was confidential that I could chat with. A few days later I took the first chance I could and talked about my past. The counsellor was very kind, very helpful. She said there was no pressure to tell anyone immediately and that was something I could do on my own terms. With that one talk, I finally felt good about myself.

    As I found peace, I felt like I should come out to my parents about this, but greatly feared their reactions. It took some more time until I went back the the RAINN chatroom and talked to another counsellor who helped me plan a time and a way to talk about it with my mom and dad. When I finally talked about it with my parents, they were nothing but supportive to me and understood how I was worried about telling them. They said how proud of me there were that I could talk to them about it and that I was incredibly brave.

    The worst part of our experiences is the pain of holding it in, acting like we need to protect people from our mistake, like we were asking for this to happen. This not a good way of thinking. This not your burden to bear alone, and the people who love you will support you and would never see this as a burden in the first place. It will get better the more you’re able to confront this. Do I fear going to places alone? Yes. Will I be able to? I don’t know. But that’s what you’re able to do when take it one step at a time. You could find it not many steps, or you’ll find yourself still climbing up. But never moving forward at all is not going to help. You are not alone.

  61. CommentSpawn

    Joyce’s line in the fourth panel is fantastic. I love it.

    That might say something bad about me, I’m honestly not sure.

  62. rayrayravona

    I have horrible memory. How does Sal know about this?

    1. Tenn

      Like so: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-2/01-pajama-jeans/assault/

  63. Edupoet81

    I’m glad that Sal put two and two together and realized what was going on. I don’t want to think about how that would have turned out if Sal hadn’t turned back when she did.

    Therapists. I’ve been seeing them on and off (significantly more on than off) since I was four. I’ve had a couple of seriously damaging ones. My first therapist was emotionally abusive to me, and I was a young child at the time. Most of the therapists I’ve had have been decent enough to talk to, but not particularly effective. I have a decent bond with my current therapist, and I usually leave my sessions feeling better about things, but I really haven’t made all that much progress in the years I’ve been seeing her. I feel like she genuinely wants to help me, but isn’t sure how. In her defense, I have a bunch of things going on which make me a particularly tough case.

    I’ve talked to other people are/ have been in therapy, and feel that it hasn’t been all that helpful. Of course, psychology is a comparatively young field, and there are still a lot of kinks to work out at this juncture.

    That said, I think that what Joyce probably needs more than the support a friend could provide in order to recover from this. I still think it would be useful for her to look into getting some professional help for herself.

    It occurs to me that both Sal and Amber now know this about Joyce. If ever there’s a situation where they’re both present, and Joyce is in trouble, would they end up teaming up to help her?

    Come to think of it, I kind of want to see that. Amber really needs to rethink her perception of Sal, and that may be the only way it can happen.

  64. RP

    Pretty sure the answer to that first question is actually “yes” and Joyce just doesn’t understand what agoraphobia really is.

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