Or it could just be that they prefer to be under the influence but would still be willing to do it sober? I dunno, how do you tell the difference?
Lanie
You kind of can’t tell the difference, and that’s exactly the problem.
Felian
My rule in that situation would be to absolutely stop. Sex on drugs can be fun, but personally i’d only do that with someone i’ve had sex with while sober before. And a negotiation about boundaries.
Felian
… and also, i’d say starting to make out with a stranger who’s on drugs already is a different level than someone starting to make out with you sober (or less on drugs) and then pausing to take more drugs. If making out isn’t drugging your brain with excitement enough, and you can still think of taking more drugs, you should probably not make out with that person right now!
I think that the stranger being the one wanting, for whatever reason, to be under the influence (of Flintstone vitamins, let us not forget) is a fairly crucial distinction.
Well…
I’m in my 50s now. I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of times I’ve been… intimate with anyone.
I often wish I could have given myself a bit of help, if you will, to reduce the anxiety, reduce my inhibitions.
While I would agree that if someone ELSE says stop, for whatever reason, that you stop, I would also say that if they are willing to go on with a bit of help, even chemical help, that it’s THEIR choice to do that.
Well, its probably better for the regrets to kick in BEFORE going through with it. Tends to minimize the future regrets.
thejeff
Yeah, that’s the thing that’s kind of getting skimmed over in our eagerness to praise Joe’s willingness to stop.
It seems that the signs her eagerness to do this wasn’t quite as solid as she was pretending were real. Now, it looks like they’re going to get through this without huge mistakes or more trauma, since her regrets kicked in early on. Could have been a lot more awkward if they’d waited until afterwards. Which is why it can be a good idea to pay attention to those warning signs in a potential partner and not dismiss it as “taking away her agency” as some were doing before.
Spencer
Nah, it’s still weird to decide how someone else will feel about sex.
Liz wanted sex, Joe wanted sex, Liz now does not want sex, so Joe stops.
As a matter of fact, it strikes me as a healthy lesson to learn that you can withdraw consent even during sex, and that doing so is a healthy and valid choice if you start to become uncomfortable and that your partner needs to respect it.
Felian
Exactly!
I don’t think it’s better to completely abstain from sex just because you might not be sure to go through with it. Sometimes we don’t know what we want or where our boundaries are until we try things out for ourselves.
The point is: You don’t HAVE to go through with it. You CAN stop at any point, and anyone who doesn’t respect that isn’t worth fucking.
If this doesn’t turn into drama on the next page, this is the healthiest way to do things, in my opinion. She’ll have learned a lesson (let’s see what kind), and no harm is done.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with making out with a guy if that’s what you felt at the time, and then stop. Yay!
Yes, that’s my guess, too.
It’s good they have a break, but I suspect Liz aren’t still not so free of her christians beliefs and fears, what make all this situation sad a lot.
The Wellerman
Well damn, looks like even the Placebo effect has its limits.
Psychie
I mean, it isn’t necessarily the christian stuff, sex (for a lot of people any way) involves intimacy and emotional entanglements that aren’t present here. IMO doing it just to get rid of the V-card is a bad idea, especially if it’s with someone who you don’t know well enough to have proper trust and rapport with. Sure different people are different, and different circumstances are different, so like all things I take “as a rule” there are exceptions where things worked out well for everyone involved, but it was clear that that wasn’t what was going to happen here. Her motives were not conducive to a good first experience because she wasn’t in the right head space for it, and it didn’t help that he’s in the middle of an existential crisis, exacerbated by her offer of no strings sex since that’s at the core of who he thought he was and what he thought he wanted out of life.
Sure the christian stuff added to the baggage, but even if she wasn’t shaking off fundie programing (we assume, due to her attitude when talking to Joyce, but given Sarah’s attitude I’m not sure it’s fundie programing and not a more mild for of christianity) I really don’t think either of them was in a position to make this a healthy first experience for her.
C.T. Phipps
I mean, you don’t have to be fundie to not be into casual hookups.
I don’t know… she’d figured out but, as I know, Joyce was a fundie, huh?
You should be right about people not like casual sex, but I don’t think this can’t be imposed in people by family, society, etc.
Spencer
Speaking as someone that Danny would insist get some initiative, it’s a whole big thing.
Liz wants sex to assert herself as an adult, because it’s her choice, because she’s been told she’s too stupid and naive to have it, but realizing something is wrong doesn’t make you deprogram all the responses and reactions you have telling you that it’s wrong, and even if you’ve had harmful thought processes on sexual purity hammered into you, the endpoint of those thoughts, that sex is something of importance that you share with someone you love and trust, is still something that can be healthy, just not the one path of many that led you there.
Even as Joyce deprograms herself, I don’t think she’d ever have a one-night stand with someone. Even without her fundie death cult upbringing insisting that sex is an inherently corrupting act that is only redeemed in one context, she’s still someone who’s big on emotionally connecting with the people she cares about. Same with Danny, he had the North American-brand generic Christian upbringing, but sex is a deeply emotional thing to him that he shares with his partner. I lost my religion when I was 12, it has no meaning to me, but I am also someone who, at least as I see myself, couldn’t do a one-night stand because sex to me is something I share with someone I love.
C.T. Phipps
Just so we’re clear, as far as your argument goes, you don’t see any reason someone wouldn’t want casual sex other than they’re dealing with fundamentalist deprogramming? I’ve noticed that you think this is why Becky doesn’t want it, why Joyce doesn’t, and now Liz.
Is it possible someone just isn’t into it?
Yumi
Did you…did not read the comment you’re replying to?
thejeff
If they weren’t recovering fundies to start with, then no, but both Joyce and Becky were raised with in an intense sexual purity culture. Both of them have openly talked about not wanting to have pre-marital sex in explicitly Christian terms. It’s not really a big stretch here.
Liz is a bit more of a black box, since we know less about how she was raised other than that she’s hiding her lack of faith from her mom and that she’s nearly as naive as Joyce was. We’ll likely learn more in the next few strips, but currently it seems like she was trying to push herself to have sex to prove something, but couldn’t go through with it. It’s not as certain, but the obvious bet is that it’s tied to the faith she was born in.
Spencer
He’s like that, Yumi.
Thag Simmons
The three characters you listed are all explicitly recovering hardline christians.
Oberon
Well it seems rather obvious that Liz is a Joyce expy, right down to Joe figuring he can have sex with Liz to get Joyce out of his mind.
And yeah, he didn’t say all of that, I just filled in the fairly obvious gaps.
But Liz showing off her God flaunting while still maintaining a Christian oriented FB page shows that she isn’t quite ready to be outed as an atheist. And probably not ready to do a lot of the things she’s been assuming that atheists get up to all the time.
My internal turmoil is something that gives me non-stop self loathing, fear for the future, and a desire to disappear from this earth. I try my best to be a worthwhile person but I constantly feel like the world would be better off without me. And honestly I don’t wanna live in the world anymore. So much negativity. So much anxiety. And it’s never gonna get better. There’s just something wrong with me and I’m sick of it.
A Red Balloon
Oh I’m so sorry to hear that! ?
Don’t believe it!
Your art makes this world so much of a better place!
Agemegos
I’m sorry to hear that you’re going through that. I don’t presume that your trouble must be the same as mine, but I used to have something similar and found (to my surprise) that a clinical psychologist was a great help.
I don’t really have any insurance and I feel like I need to save my money so for the time being that’s a luxury I’m gonna pass on. It’s my own fault cuz I didn’t do it when I did have insurance.
Agemegos
How good are you at bibliotherapy? There are some decent resources by Martin Seligman, and books are cheap.
A Red Balloon
I dunno about bibliotherapy. Self-help books and pop psych based therapy are kind of a crap shoot.
Also, wasn’t Martin Seligman that one who sold books about “curing” homosexuality?
Yoto: free or low-cost counseling, pls look into it if the only thing stopping you is you think you can’t afford it https://www.opencounseling.com/
or search for “free therapy” etc. for different options
Agemegos
@Red Balloon.
I don’t think that’s right about Seligman, because I clearly recall that in his book What You Can Change and What you Can’t he described gender identity and sexual orientation as being impossible to alter, and condemned methods advertised for changing them as expensive, dangerous, cruel, and ineffective. As for “pop psychology” he’s one of the most frequently cited academic psychologists of the Twentieth Century.
None of which is to say that he’s always right nor that his advice is useful to everyone. But do please be more careful with the insinuating questions.
A Red Balloon
Oh sorry! I must’ve been thinking of someone else!
I generally try to avoid DIY therapy books ’cause depending on the source some of them actually have some really terrible advice.
But yeah if Seligman is this widely cited and accredited then I might actually check his stuff out at some point.
Decidedly Orthogonal
@Yoto I read your thoughts comment and all I could think was “Brother!” Although I continue to struggle against that negative thinking (a lifetime of it is hard to redirect), the best part of getting the help I needed was installing the mental/emotional floor that keeps me from falling into the deepest parts of that bleak well of despair.
Seligman’s “Learned Optimism” is partly at fault/to credit for me being alive today.
I’m not “great” by a long shot, but I’m not looking at every highway barricade and wanting to hit it either. From a very analytical/scientific standpoint, he delves into why teaching yourself to be less depressed and more optimistic can help. Without reading Seligman, I’m nit sure I’d have talked to my Dr about therapy or medication. It’s not just a theory book. He includes some practical exercises to help confront negative self talk. (CBT type stuff)
Decidedly Orthogonal
Fact checking about Seligman and conversion therapy. Here’s a couple of sources about Seligman:
Unified Psychotherapy Project cites his observations from 1966 on Conversion ‘therapy’ in “What you can change and what you can’t”. It’s neither an endorsement nor (disappointingly) a resounding criticism of it.
The same passage is referenced at LGBT Wiki.
NeuroTree only lists one publication by Seligman that primarily addresses sex, and that is “Sex differences in depression and explanatory style in children.”
So that’s one summary of part of “What you can change[…]”. Between quoting Seligman’s passage about how excited the psychology community initially was, and only adding that he “notes that the findings were later demonstrated to be flawed.” It reads like it’s framed to paint a particular view of the passage. At the same time, this may be coloured by my own response in a “never meet your heroes” kind of defense. I’m now hunting for the book to see if I can read the full passage.
Decidedly Orthogonal
N.b. The passage in those two sources reads like it was something Seligman reported on in 1966, but also like that’s when the study occured. The first source then provides a citation as the book “What you can change[…]” but that book was first published in 1993. So something isn’t adding up clearly.
One thing is clear is that I shouldn’t looking into this while still waking up.
Alanari
In my experience, that voice is nothing short of a liar. It just takes a while to really understand that. You’re worthwhile because you’re there. Period. That’s something you don’t need to earn.
That’s not true. People only say stuff like that because they like me. And people like me because I try very hard to be liked. I’ve seen the way people on turn on people on the internet, and honestly my will to live ain’t that strong. So I try to avoid any controversy I can cuz I cannot mentally handle it. And living in fear of that is just so stressful. I’m tired.
The Wellerman
Dude, I’m so sorry to hear you’re going through all this!
Your art is so important to me, it got me through some really difficult and stressful times!
What you draw gave me the ability to escape, even if only for a few minutes or even a brief moment, that was invaluable in getting me through those dreary days!
I’d be really sad if anything ever happened to you! ?
What you do makes the world a better place! YOU make the world a better place. You help people, you help the world, as an artist, just like Willis, just like the artists behind all your favorite comics and anime!
Please just believe me when I say the world is SO much better with you around!!! ?
Agemegos
Pretty much so. It’s not just a liar but an unimaginative and repetitious one, so once you expose its lies it is often possible to cultivate a habit of refuting them and divert its litanies. Easier with help, of course.
Miri
A) People are frequently dicks on the internet. Being part of an anonymous mob can bring out the worst in people and turn them into rabid shred-beasts. Judging your self-worth by the vicious, unwarranted assault others can aim at people who stumble into their firing line is not logical!
B) If it/they seem to exist to counter any argument as to why you may matter, and to put you down and mock you, that internal turmoil may be.you experiencing intrusive thoughts. Basically it’s depression hijacking part of your brain to attack you with, not your ACTUAL thoughts.
C) You don’t need to engage with intrusive thoughts, and if you can just go “intrusive thought, not my thought” and ignore it,.eventually they do go away (at least mostly)
Source: spent 6 years with suicidal depression. Ultimately managed to CBT myself without professional help. Am now a much happier, stable person who enjoys her own company and life. Can be done, worth trying xx
Nicoleandmaggie
Adding on to what Miri said, while I was waiting for CBT (it was sliding scale and there was a waitlist) the therapist office recommended two books: Mind over mood, and The thoughts and feelings handbook.
Another trick is to wear a rubber band and snap it saying NO when you get an intrusive thought.
Decidedly Orthogonal
You’re very supportive @Alanari and this is it 100%
> “You’re worthwhile because you’re there. Period.”
But this:
> “That’s something you don’t need to earn.”
Is well meaning but quite wrong. Many of us actually *do* need to learn that we deserve living. We’ve been taught through emotional abuse, learned experience, and often very explicit statements by abusers that the opposite is true. It’s not, but our brains are actually convinced of our lack of worth, and we need to learn to value ourselves. We shouldn’t *have* to do this. No-one should teach the living to feel and think this way But they do.
I don’t mean to be rude but the quote is “You don’t need to earn” not “You don’t need to learn”
Decidedly Orthogonal
Ah… yes.. that is rather different. Learning to read is something I need to re-earn. ?♂️
It doth remain better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open my mouth and stick a foot in it.
kater
Can’t respond to the later post but it’s not your fault if you weren’t able to get help when you had insurance. It’s nobody’s fault, except maybe the systems that cause you to losr insurance before you’re ready for therapy. You deserve to feel better. I hope one day you can.
EmCaCo
Hi Yotomoe. Here are my thoughts for whatever they are worth.
You are a stranger to me, but some of the things you are saying could be words from my own mouth. I have lived with a cloud of…feeling like I was one step off a razor’s edge from ruining my life beyond repair, that it didn’t matter because I was already ruined really, and like I was being a fake and hollow person who somehow tricked people into tolerating me.
I use past tense, but I’m not totally beyond those thoughts yet. They still happen sometimes. I’m working on it. I have downturns, but things are getting better for me now. Sometimes I feel so much better that it HURTS to think about it. It’s weird.
Your situation is your own, I don’t know your details but…all I can say is that therapy helped me a lot. And one of the ways it helped me was in realizing that medication would also help me. Therapy helped me to learn how to pull myself out of a spiral, but I want to not have to spiral down so far to begin with. It is exhausting. And it is a special kind of…shittiness? To realize that there is actually a legit option there within reach, and that existing actually does not have to be so hard. And that I was fighting with myself and making rational reasons to continue suffering. Thinking I would have to just bootstrap myself out of it, and THEN I could be better. And that if I couldn’t do that…well, then somehow I wouldn’t deserve to feel better anyway? I’m a little embarrassed at how long it took me to realize that if I felt like this suffering was an innate part of me, then that is actually a checkmark in the “Need to Fix Your Brain Chemistry” column.
Sometimes being able to feel better has to happen before the changes that will fix my life. My conclusion, finally, has been that I need to not be busy fighting myself all the time so that I can actually make my life better. It takes SO MUCH ENERGY and TIME to feel shitty. I’m drawing again, now. It’s baby steps, but I am drawing again and that means so much to me.
So, just in case any of the following could help you. Apologies if I’m suggesting stuff you already know.
I know you mentioned not having insurance, and therapy/support would be ideal alongside this, but general practice doctors can prescribe meds and are usually more accessible and affordable for an appointment than psychiatric clinicians. Given *gestures at everything* a lot of doctors are discussing mental health as a regular part of patient care. Generic brand pills are also surprisingly affordable, and some pharmacies have specialties that allow them to offer discounts. Your doctor might know, or you might be able to call around and ask.
Planned Parenthood also provides mental health counseling with a sliding fee based on income – their goal is whole community health, so you will see a variety of genders in their waiting rooms. The cost can be established upfront when making the appointment.
You don’t have to have everything in place to start making any one step, there is no such thing as a perfect process, whatever you do to help yourself is part of self care.
Hey, Yoto, I got this damn voice in my head, too. Partly because my youth that was wasted in years and years of fundamentalism shit, partly of massive amount of self loathing, bullying and another traumas and etc.
Have some hug from here, and hope you pass through, because you’re fucking awesome.
Not me. I have no backstory. A very accepting upbringing, pretty privileged all things considered. My divorce from religion was just a gradual realization I didn’t believe. I dunno it’s not like I have a reason to be sad. I’m just sorta selfish. All my insignificant problems don’t really matter in the face of people who actually struggle.
deliverything
I know this response is a bit late, but: suffering’s not a compeptition. Some of us have reasons we can point to for why we’re messed up and others of us don’t, but an unexplained problem is still a problem.
Leorale
I’m also an artist with depression (on the other side of it now). I remember with perfect clarity everything about that your brain is saying to you, in your post and responses above, because my brain said it to me, and it was saying it 100% because of my depression.
The backstory, the “reason” that you’re having these thoughts and feelings is that you’re experiencing depression. (That’s all that’s “wrong with you”, as you said above — it’s not actually something wrong with you as a person.) It’s a chemical thing that is happening, that you’re trying to fix and survive and deal with currently, from inside of it (which is badass, but also really sucky, as you sure don’t need me to tell you).
You have lots of skills that are helping you (such as creativity, plus being articulate and vulnerable — do you realize, not everyone can do that, it’s kind of a big deal!) and these skills will continue to help you.
You’re currently encountering depression on Very Hard Mode, ie, without meds or therapy. Sounds like you wish you had access to cheap-or-free meds and therapy. Are you in the US? One can often find free therapy, or on a sliding scale. If you want, let me know your zipcode, and I’ll find one for you, or you can yourself. I’d be going to http://www.findhelp.org .
Yotomoe
No but it does mean that my problems don’t matter. In the grand scheme of the world I’m pretty blessed and I don’t deserve to be. I’m sick of being here. I’m sick of feelings guilty for being here. I’m sick of being my mediocre self. I’m sick of wanting to die I’m sick of being terrified of dying. I’m sick of needing money I’m sick of going to work I’m sick of crying I’m sick of hurting I’m sick of sucking I’m sick of failing I’m sick of people dying I’m sick of people sucking I’m sick of lying to everyone I’m sick of lying to myself I’m sick of the steady progress of time I’m sick of this world we live on I’m sick of humans I’m sick of animals I’m sick of my brain and the chaos inside of it I’m sick of being alone I’m sick of hating myself because it’s my fault that I’m alone I’m sick of being an underachiever I’m sick of not being able to change I’m sick of wasting my life I wish I had never been born what an absolute waste of consciousness.
Leorale
Yep. You’re in it. You’re really, really in it. It’s an awful place to be.
What’s your zip code?
Yotomoe
I just had a bit of an emotional breakdown at work. :/ Got myself a bit too worked up.
Also it’s 30157. Just don’t use that information to track me down watch me through my bedroom window . You are allowed to watch me through my living room window though.
Leorale
Cool. Here’s one!
Mental Health Services by Highland River Center
Call 800-729-5700 (you’ll just talk to a receptionist or leave a message)
I’ll check it out but I’m probably unlikely to do it if it costs money.
Leorale
I understand, I’ve been there, too. Remember that your depression will grab whatever obstacle is handy, in order to perpetuate itself. (Is there really a better use of money than not having to feel like your stream-of-depression, above? That’s what [that part of your] money is for. But yeah. It’s hard to imagine.)
I hope you hold onto the willful powerful part of you that expressed how you’re feeling that loudly, that screamed how much you wanted that feeling to stop. You didn’t have to say anything so real, but you chose to. You’re a person who wants to feel better so damn much. Hold onto this part of you. It is great.
I hope you find a sliding scale price that works for you. (Or, you can always ask them for free resources in your area.)
Rooting so hard for you.
421 thoughts on “Sorry”
Ana Chronistic
“…I need another edible, THEN we can resume”
“oh”
“is that a good ‘oh’ or bad ‘oh’?”
“…you ever heard of an Oh-face?”
“OH… I thought that’d be kinkier”
ThunderNight
the flintstones are wearing off
Doctor_Who
They’re yabba dabba done.
Nicoleandmaggie
Not funny.
If a stranger needs to be under the influence to resume then you stop.
Librain
Or it could just be that they prefer to be under the influence but would still be willing to do it sober? I dunno, how do you tell the difference?
Lanie
You kind of can’t tell the difference, and that’s exactly the problem.
Felian
My rule in that situation would be to absolutely stop. Sex on drugs can be fun, but personally i’d only do that with someone i’ve had sex with while sober before. And a negotiation about boundaries.
Felian
… and also, i’d say starting to make out with a stranger who’s on drugs already is a different level than someone starting to make out with you sober (or less on drugs) and then pausing to take more drugs. If making out isn’t drugging your brain with excitement enough, and you can still think of taking more drugs, you should probably not make out with that person right now!
maarvarq
I think that the stranger being the one wanting, for whatever reason, to be under the influence (of Flintstone vitamins, let us not forget) is a fairly crucial distinction.
Ana Chronistic
more accurately they’d prolly be like VitaFusion (can’t imagine Centrum but possible)
S.R.
I mean, if someone thinks they have to be drugged in order to continue a sexual encounter, that’s not a good sign either.
Mojo
Well…
I’m in my 50s now. I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of times I’ve been… intimate with anyone.
I often wish I could have given myself a bit of help, if you will, to reduce the anxiety, reduce my inhibitions.
While I would agree that if someone ELSE says stop, for whatever reason, that you stop, I would also say that if they are willing to go on with a bit of help, even chemical help, that it’s THEIR choice to do that.
NinjaNick
What have you done, Liz?
ThunderNight
well she was about to do Joe
NinjaNick
…and probably regretting it.
porthos9438
Well, its probably better for the regrets to kick in BEFORE going through with it. Tends to minimize the future regrets.
thejeff
Yeah, that’s the thing that’s kind of getting skimmed over in our eagerness to praise Joe’s willingness to stop.
It seems that the signs her eagerness to do this wasn’t quite as solid as she was pretending were real. Now, it looks like they’re going to get through this without huge mistakes or more trauma, since her regrets kicked in early on. Could have been a lot more awkward if they’d waited until afterwards. Which is why it can be a good idea to pay attention to those warning signs in a potential partner and not dismiss it as “taking away her agency” as some were doing before.
Spencer
Nah, it’s still weird to decide how someone else will feel about sex.
Liz wanted sex, Joe wanted sex, Liz now does not want sex, so Joe stops.
As a matter of fact, it strikes me as a healthy lesson to learn that you can withdraw consent even during sex, and that doing so is a healthy and valid choice if you start to become uncomfortable and that your partner needs to respect it.
Felian
Exactly!
I don’t think it’s better to completely abstain from sex just because you might not be sure to go through with it. Sometimes we don’t know what we want or where our boundaries are until we try things out for ourselves.
The point is: You don’t HAVE to go through with it. You CAN stop at any point, and anyone who doesn’t respect that isn’t worth fucking.
If this doesn’t turn into drama on the next page, this is the healthiest way to do things, in my opinion. She’ll have learned a lesson (let’s see what kind), and no harm is done.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with making out with a guy if that’s what you felt at the time, and then stop. Yay!
Deanatay
Yass all the sex NO REGERTS
wait
REGERTS
ALL THE REGERTS
jmsr7
It’s a little hard to have sex when your brain is screaming at you.
RassilonTDavros
Yeah, I get the distinct feeling that this is her first time doing this and the fundie programming is on red alert.
Amós Batista
Yes, that’s my guess, too.
It’s good they have a break, but I suspect Liz aren’t still not so free of her christians beliefs and fears, what make all this situation sad a lot.
The Wellerman
Well damn, looks like even the Placebo effect has its limits.
Psychie
I mean, it isn’t necessarily the christian stuff, sex (for a lot of people any way) involves intimacy and emotional entanglements that aren’t present here. IMO doing it just to get rid of the V-card is a bad idea, especially if it’s with someone who you don’t know well enough to have proper trust and rapport with. Sure different people are different, and different circumstances are different, so like all things I take “as a rule” there are exceptions where things worked out well for everyone involved, but it was clear that that wasn’t what was going to happen here. Her motives were not conducive to a good first experience because she wasn’t in the right head space for it, and it didn’t help that he’s in the middle of an existential crisis, exacerbated by her offer of no strings sex since that’s at the core of who he thought he was and what he thought he wanted out of life.
Sure the christian stuff added to the baggage, but even if she wasn’t shaking off fundie programing (we assume, due to her attitude when talking to Joyce, but given Sarah’s attitude I’m not sure it’s fundie programing and not a more mild for of christianity) I really don’t think either of them was in a position to make this a healthy first experience for her.
C.T. Phipps
I mean, you don’t have to be fundie to not be into casual hookups.
Joyce of all people figured that out.
Amós Batista
I don’t know… she’d figured out but, as I know, Joyce was a fundie, huh?
You should be right about people not like casual sex, but I don’t think this can’t be imposed in people by family, society, etc.
Spencer
Speaking as someone that Danny would insist get some initiative, it’s a whole big thing.
Liz wants sex to assert herself as an adult, because it’s her choice, because she’s been told she’s too stupid and naive to have it, but realizing something is wrong doesn’t make you deprogram all the responses and reactions you have telling you that it’s wrong, and even if you’ve had harmful thought processes on sexual purity hammered into you, the endpoint of those thoughts, that sex is something of importance that you share with someone you love and trust, is still something that can be healthy, just not the one path of many that led you there.
Even as Joyce deprograms herself, I don’t think she’d ever have a one-night stand with someone. Even without her fundie death cult upbringing insisting that sex is an inherently corrupting act that is only redeemed in one context, she’s still someone who’s big on emotionally connecting with the people she cares about. Same with Danny, he had the North American-brand generic Christian upbringing, but sex is a deeply emotional thing to him that he shares with his partner. I lost my religion when I was 12, it has no meaning to me, but I am also someone who, at least as I see myself, couldn’t do a one-night stand because sex to me is something I share with someone I love.
C.T. Phipps
Just so we’re clear, as far as your argument goes, you don’t see any reason someone wouldn’t want casual sex other than they’re dealing with fundamentalist deprogramming? I’ve noticed that you think this is why Becky doesn’t want it, why Joyce doesn’t, and now Liz.
Is it possible someone just isn’t into it?
Yumi
Did you…did not read the comment you’re replying to?
thejeff
If they weren’t recovering fundies to start with, then no, but both Joyce and Becky were raised with in an intense sexual purity culture. Both of them have openly talked about not wanting to have pre-marital sex in explicitly Christian terms. It’s not really a big stretch here.
Liz is a bit more of a black box, since we know less about how she was raised other than that she’s hiding her lack of faith from her mom and that she’s nearly as naive as Joyce was. We’ll likely learn more in the next few strips, but currently it seems like she was trying to push herself to have sex to prove something, but couldn’t go through with it. It’s not as certain, but the obvious bet is that it’s tied to the faith she was born in.
Spencer
He’s like that, Yumi.
Thag Simmons
The three characters you listed are all explicitly recovering hardline christians.
Oberon
Well it seems rather obvious that Liz is a Joyce expy, right down to Joe figuring he can have sex with Liz to get Joyce out of his mind.
And yeah, he didn’t say all of that, I just filled in the fairly obvious gaps.
But Liz showing off her God flaunting while still maintaining a Christian oriented FB page shows that she isn’t quite ready to be outed as an atheist. And probably not ready to do a lot of the things she’s been assuming that atheists get up to all the time.
Yotomoe
Damn, that explains why it’s so hard for me. My brain is ALWAYS screaming at me!
A Red Balloon
What’s it screaming at you?
Yotomoe
I don’t wanna say 😛 It’s quite rude.
A Red Balloon
Tell us the story! Please!
Surely it can’t be any worse than the c-word?
Yotomoe
My internal turmoil is something that gives me non-stop self loathing, fear for the future, and a desire to disappear from this earth. I try my best to be a worthwhile person but I constantly feel like the world would be better off without me. And honestly I don’t wanna live in the world anymore. So much negativity. So much anxiety. And it’s never gonna get better. There’s just something wrong with me and I’m sick of it.
A Red Balloon
Oh I’m so sorry to hear that! ?
Don’t believe it!
Your art makes this world so much of a better place!
Agemegos
I’m sorry to hear that you’re going through that. I don’t presume that your trouble must be the same as mine, but I used to have something similar and found (to my surprise) that a clinical psychologist was a great help.
Yotomoe
I don’t really have any insurance and I feel like I need to save my money so for the time being that’s a luxury I’m gonna pass on. It’s my own fault cuz I didn’t do it when I did have insurance.
Agemegos
How good are you at bibliotherapy? There are some decent resources by Martin Seligman, and books are cheap.
A Red Balloon
I dunno about bibliotherapy. Self-help books and pop psych based therapy are kind of a crap shoot.
Also, wasn’t Martin Seligman that one who sold books about “curing” homosexuality?
Ana Chronistic
Yoto: free or low-cost counseling, pls look into it if the only thing stopping you is you think you can’t afford it
https://www.opencounseling.com/
or search for “free therapy” etc. for different options
Agemegos
@Red Balloon.
I don’t think that’s right about Seligman, because I clearly recall that in his book What You Can Change and What you Can’t he described gender identity and sexual orientation as being impossible to alter, and condemned methods advertised for changing them as expensive, dangerous, cruel, and ineffective. As for “pop psychology” he’s one of the most frequently cited academic psychologists of the Twentieth Century.
None of which is to say that he’s always right nor that his advice is useful to everyone. But do please be more careful with the insinuating questions.
A Red Balloon
Oh sorry! I must’ve been thinking of someone else!
I generally try to avoid DIY therapy books ’cause depending on the source some of them actually have some really terrible advice.
But yeah if Seligman is this widely cited and accredited then I might actually check his stuff out at some point.
Decidedly Orthogonal
@Yoto I read your thoughts comment and all I could think was “Brother!” Although I continue to struggle against that negative thinking (a lifetime of it is hard to redirect), the best part of getting the help I needed was installing the mental/emotional floor that keeps me from falling into the deepest parts of that bleak well of despair.
Seligman’s “Learned Optimism” is partly at fault/to credit for me being alive today.
I’m not “great” by a long shot, but I’m not looking at every highway barricade and wanting to hit it either. From a very analytical/scientific standpoint, he delves into why teaching yourself to be less depressed and more optimistic can help. Without reading Seligman, I’m nit sure I’d have talked to my Dr about therapy or medication. It’s not just a theory book. He includes some practical exercises to help confront negative self talk. (CBT type stuff)
Decidedly Orthogonal
Fact checking about Seligman and conversion therapy. Here’s a couple of sources about Seligman:
Unified Psychotherapy Project cites his observations from 1966 on Conversion ‘therapy’ in “What you can change and what you can’t”. It’s neither an endorsement nor (disappointingly) a resounding criticism of it.
The same passage is referenced at LGBT Wiki.
NeuroTree only lists one publication by Seligman that primarily addresses sex, and that is “Sex differences in depression and explanatory style in children.”
So that’s one summary of part of “What you can change[…]”. Between quoting Seligman’s passage about how excited the psychology community initially was, and only adding that he “notes that the findings were later demonstrated to be flawed.” It reads like it’s framed to paint a particular view of the passage. At the same time, this may be coloured by my own response in a “never meet your heroes” kind of defense. I’m now hunting for the book to see if I can read the full passage.
Decidedly Orthogonal
N.b. The passage in those two sources reads like it was something Seligman reported on in 1966, but also like that’s when the study occured. The first source then provides a citation as the book “What you can change[…]” but that book was first published in 1993. So something isn’t adding up clearly.
One thing is clear is that I shouldn’t looking into this while still waking up.
Alanari
In my experience, that voice is nothing short of a liar. It just takes a while to really understand that. You’re worthwhile because you’re there. Period. That’s something you don’t need to earn.
Yotomoe
That’s not true. People only say stuff like that because they like me. And people like me because I try very hard to be liked. I’ve seen the way people on turn on people on the internet, and honestly my will to live ain’t that strong. So I try to avoid any controversy I can cuz I cannot mentally handle it. And living in fear of that is just so stressful. I’m tired.
The Wellerman
Dude, I’m so sorry to hear you’re going through all this!
Your art is so important to me, it got me through some really difficult and stressful times!
What you draw gave me the ability to escape, even if only for a few minutes or even a brief moment, that was invaluable in getting me through those dreary days!
I’d be really sad if anything ever happened to you! ?
What you do makes the world a better place! YOU make the world a better place. You help people, you help the world, as an artist, just like Willis, just like the artists behind all your favorite comics and anime!
Please just believe me when I say the world is SO much better with you around!!! ?
Agemegos
Pretty much so. It’s not just a liar but an unimaginative and repetitious one, so once you expose its lies it is often possible to cultivate a habit of refuting them and divert its litanies. Easier with help, of course.
Miri
A) People are frequently dicks on the internet. Being part of an anonymous mob can bring out the worst in people and turn them into rabid shred-beasts. Judging your self-worth by the vicious, unwarranted assault others can aim at people who stumble into their firing line is not logical!
B) If it/they seem to exist to counter any argument as to why you may matter, and to put you down and mock you, that internal turmoil may be.you experiencing intrusive thoughts. Basically it’s depression hijacking part of your brain to attack you with, not your ACTUAL thoughts.
C) You don’t need to engage with intrusive thoughts, and if you can just go “intrusive thought, not my thought” and ignore it,.eventually they do go away (at least mostly)
Source: spent 6 years with suicidal depression. Ultimately managed to CBT myself without professional help. Am now a much happier, stable person who enjoys her own company and life. Can be done, worth trying xx
Nicoleandmaggie
Adding on to what Miri said, while I was waiting for CBT (it was sliding scale and there was a waitlist) the therapist office recommended two books: Mind over mood, and The thoughts and feelings handbook.
Another trick is to wear a rubber band and snap it saying NO when you get an intrusive thought.
Decidedly Orthogonal
You’re very supportive @Alanari and this is it 100%
> “You’re worthwhile because you’re there. Period.”
But this:
> “That’s something you don’t need to earn.”
Is well meaning but quite wrong. Many of us actually *do* need to learn that we deserve living. We’ve been taught through emotional abuse, learned experience, and often very explicit statements by abusers that the opposite is true. It’s not, but our brains are actually convinced of our lack of worth, and we need to learn to value ourselves. We shouldn’t *have* to do this. No-one should teach the living to feel and think this way But they do.
Yotomoe
I don’t mean to be rude but the quote is “You don’t need to earn” not “You don’t need to learn”
Decidedly Orthogonal
Ah… yes.. that is rather different. Learning to read is something I need to re-earn. ?♂️
It doth remain better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open my mouth and stick a foot in it.
kater
Can’t respond to the later post but it’s not your fault if you weren’t able to get help when you had insurance. It’s nobody’s fault, except maybe the systems that cause you to losr insurance before you’re ready for therapy. You deserve to feel better. I hope one day you can.
EmCaCo
Hi Yotomoe. Here are my thoughts for whatever they are worth.
You are a stranger to me, but some of the things you are saying could be words from my own mouth. I have lived with a cloud of…feeling like I was one step off a razor’s edge from ruining my life beyond repair, that it didn’t matter because I was already ruined really, and like I was being a fake and hollow person who somehow tricked people into tolerating me.
I use past tense, but I’m not totally beyond those thoughts yet. They still happen sometimes. I’m working on it. I have downturns, but things are getting better for me now. Sometimes I feel so much better that it HURTS to think about it. It’s weird.
Your situation is your own, I don’t know your details but…all I can say is that therapy helped me a lot. And one of the ways it helped me was in realizing that medication would also help me. Therapy helped me to learn how to pull myself out of a spiral, but I want to not have to spiral down so far to begin with. It is exhausting. And it is a special kind of…shittiness? To realize that there is actually a legit option there within reach, and that existing actually does not have to be so hard. And that I was fighting with myself and making rational reasons to continue suffering. Thinking I would have to just bootstrap myself out of it, and THEN I could be better. And that if I couldn’t do that…well, then somehow I wouldn’t deserve to feel better anyway? I’m a little embarrassed at how long it took me to realize that if I felt like this suffering was an innate part of me, then that is actually a checkmark in the “Need to Fix Your Brain Chemistry” column.
Sometimes being able to feel better has to happen before the changes that will fix my life. My conclusion, finally, has been that I need to not be busy fighting myself all the time so that I can actually make my life better. It takes SO MUCH ENERGY and TIME to feel shitty. I’m drawing again, now. It’s baby steps, but I am drawing again and that means so much to me.
So, just in case any of the following could help you. Apologies if I’m suggesting stuff you already know.
I know you mentioned not having insurance, and therapy/support would be ideal alongside this, but general practice doctors can prescribe meds and are usually more accessible and affordable for an appointment than psychiatric clinicians. Given *gestures at everything* a lot of doctors are discussing mental health as a regular part of patient care. Generic brand pills are also surprisingly affordable, and some pharmacies have specialties that allow them to offer discounts. Your doctor might know, or you might be able to call around and ask.
Planned Parenthood also provides mental health counseling with a sliding fee based on income – their goal is whole community health, so you will see a variety of genders in their waiting rooms. The cost can be established upfront when making the appointment.
You don’t have to have everything in place to start making any one step, there is no such thing as a perfect process, whatever you do to help yourself is part of self care.
Yotomoe
Sorry to hear about that, glad to hear you’ve been feeling better at the very least. Glad everyone’s super concerned about me at the very least.
Leorale
Yep. You’re in it. You’re really, really in it. It’s an awful place to be.
What’s your zip code?
Leorale
(Ech, I was trying to respond to Yotomoe’s comment below, which was a depression stream of consciousness.)
Yo, Yotomoe, what’s your zipcode?
Amós Batista
Hey, Yoto, I got this damn voice in my head, too. Partly because my youth that was wasted in years and years of fundamentalism shit, partly of massive amount of self loathing, bullying and another traumas and etc.
Have some hug from here, and hope you pass through, because you’re fucking awesome.
Yotomoe
Not me. I have no backstory. A very accepting upbringing, pretty privileged all things considered. My divorce from religion was just a gradual realization I didn’t believe. I dunno it’s not like I have a reason to be sad. I’m just sorta selfish. All my insignificant problems don’t really matter in the face of people who actually struggle.
deliverything
I know this response is a bit late, but: suffering’s not a compeptition. Some of us have reasons we can point to for why we’re messed up and others of us don’t, but an unexplained problem is still a problem.
Leorale
I’m also an artist with depression (on the other side of it now). I remember with perfect clarity everything about that your brain is saying to you, in your post and responses above, because my brain said it to me, and it was saying it 100% because of my depression.
The backstory, the “reason” that you’re having these thoughts and feelings is that you’re experiencing depression. (That’s all that’s “wrong with you”, as you said above — it’s not actually something wrong with you as a person.) It’s a chemical thing that is happening, that you’re trying to fix and survive and deal with currently, from inside of it (which is badass, but also really sucky, as you sure don’t need me to tell you).
You have lots of skills that are helping you (such as creativity, plus being articulate and vulnerable — do you realize, not everyone can do that, it’s kind of a big deal!) and these skills will continue to help you.
You’re currently encountering depression on Very Hard Mode, ie, without meds or therapy. Sounds like you wish you had access to cheap-or-free meds and therapy. Are you in the US? One can often find free therapy, or on a sliding scale. If you want, let me know your zipcode, and I’ll find one for you, or you can yourself. I’d be going to http://www.findhelp.org .
Yotomoe
No but it does mean that my problems don’t matter. In the grand scheme of the world I’m pretty blessed and I don’t deserve to be. I’m sick of being here. I’m sick of feelings guilty for being here. I’m sick of being my mediocre self. I’m sick of wanting to die I’m sick of being terrified of dying. I’m sick of needing money I’m sick of going to work I’m sick of crying I’m sick of hurting I’m sick of sucking I’m sick of failing I’m sick of people dying I’m sick of people sucking I’m sick of lying to everyone I’m sick of lying to myself I’m sick of the steady progress of time I’m sick of this world we live on I’m sick of humans I’m sick of animals I’m sick of my brain and the chaos inside of it I’m sick of being alone I’m sick of hating myself because it’s my fault that I’m alone I’m sick of being an underachiever I’m sick of not being able to change I’m sick of wasting my life I wish I had never been born what an absolute waste of consciousness.
Leorale
Yep. You’re in it. You’re really, really in it. It’s an awful place to be.
What’s your zip code?
Yotomoe
I just had a bit of an emotional breakdown at work. :/ Got myself a bit too worked up.
Also it’s 30157. Just don’t use that information to track me down watch me through my bedroom window . You are allowed to watch me through my living room window though.
Leorale
Cool. Here’s one!
Mental Health Services by Highland River Center
Call 800-729-5700 (you’ll just talk to a receptionist or leave a message)
126 Enterprise Path
Open Now : 8:00 AM – 6:00 PM
And nice living room, I like your couch. ?
Yotomoe
I’ll check it out but I’m probably unlikely to do it if it costs money.
Leorale
I understand, I’ve been there, too. Remember that your depression will grab whatever obstacle is handy, in order to perpetuate itself. (Is there really a better use of money than not having to feel like your stream-of-depression, above? That’s what [that part of your] money is for. But yeah. It’s hard to imagine.)
I hope you hold onto the willful powerful part of you that expressed how you’re feeling that loudly, that screamed how much you wanted that feeling to stop. You didn’t have to say anything so real, but you chose to. You’re a person who wants to feel better so damn much. Hold onto this part of you. It is great.
I hope you find a sliding scale price that works for you. (Or, you can always ask them for free resources in your area.)
Rooting so hard for you.
Hydrohead
unless it’s screaming; “DO IT! DO IT! DOOOOO IIIIIIIIT!”
Proxiehunter