Live drawing a naked person, especially as a date sounds awful. Awkward and the added pressure of performance anxiety so you’re date doesn’t think you’re an artless monkey who lacks the basic motor skills to draw simple shapes. At least with Pizza, everyone should have their clothes on and if it goes poorly, Joyce still makes it out with a free meal.
Yotomoe
It could be a pretty fun date if you’re both artists tho. You could compare techniques at the end of the night. Have a moment where you’re like “why don’t you keep my sketch and I’ll keep yours”
Bridgebrain
Or if you’re both chill about being terrible artists. Like bob ross painting nights, there’s no mistakes, only happy little accidents (and laughter over how much your drawing kind of looks like a cat somehow?)
Thag Simmons
I would absolutely prefer a pizza date IRL, but for the purposes of a scenario in a slice of life comic bringing the guy you have a mutual crush on to a life drawing class is extremely good
v.gay.person
I’m team naked people art. I prefer having an activity to occupy my brain/hands over just sitting and staring at each others eye globes. Parallel play for the win
I think I’d rather have pizza as a date, than trying to draw a naked person. Pizza would be way less awkward for me, though I’m already super awkward regardless.
I feel like half the point of a life drawing model is that they aren’t moving. Like, sure, you should learn how to draw motion at some point, but you first need to learn how to draw things that aren’t moving.
(Actually, I’m kind of curious if “sense of motion” as an artistic technique is a relatively new thing. Thinking about, like, Renaissance paintings, I feel like they generally don’t convey motion very well – their figures always have a sort of posed look, indicating motion in the abstract but never actually appearing to be moving. And thinking about it in practical terms, I’m not sure how you would study motion as an artist in an era before photography. I don’t know anything about art history, so I’m sort of posing this as a question in the hope that someone here does.)
Yotomoe
You study motion by drawing figures in motion. Simple as that. Life drawing has several stages. Quick poses, 30-second, 1 minute, 2 minute, 5 minute, 30 minute, hour and so on and so on. I’ve life drawn people just walking out in public. The idea is to quickly capture the line of action, the line from their head down to their feet that their body follows and then fill in the blanks from your mind.
Also there are PLENTY of renaissance paintings conveying a BEAUTIFUL sense of motion. It’s just not necessarily the ones that are popular. The more static portraits are just that. Portraits, usually of wealthy people who could afford to commission the artist. Who wanted a static image of themselves looking regal to hang up in their foyer or what have you. It’s more so that that’s just the style of the time. It’s also worth noting the art colleges had very specific Ideas of what is “real” art. And so that’s the art that tends to survive.
v.gay.person
I like going out but dislike people so the solution has been going to (punk/metal/art) events and drawing people and motions. Like, often it’s not “drawing people” like some people can, it’s watching people and the way their bodies move and drawing the *movement* when they move and then creating new bodies around them.
No worries about consent cos it’s never a drawing of the actual person, just like a starting sketch of the motion of the arms and core filled in with various details based on whatever I want to practice (eg, I’m practicing male/very muscular bodies cos I’m way more comfy drawing very soft, round bodies but I’ll do multiple sketches off the same motion/pose)
I would think you’d have to be careful to ask permission before doing that.
v.gay.person
Maybe at a strip club, at least paying for your time there. I sketch at dance clubs (more bc it helps me regulate anxiety/zero in on details and not be bogged down by the all-ness) but it rarely means actually drawing individual people, more like composite drawings based on multiple individual parts/movements.
(Like, take the shadowing from here, the nose/jawline from there, the body motion from over there, some other outfit/fashion inspo and you end up with a totally individual sketch. Or my fave thing is just trying to draw faces I see in x-amount of lines/shapes)
Dorothy didn’t order you to go. You expressed interest when the topic was suggested and then bit Dorothy’s head off for being to up your ass about period pills. Don’t slander your mother Joyce!
There is…really no reason whatsoever to think Joyce means “orders” literally, and not figuratively, to indicate to the audience that Joyce did in fact pick up on how invested Dorothy was, in the life-drawing class she’d arranged for Joyce to sit in on.
While I agree that Joyce certainly didn’t mean it literally, given the context of Joyce yelling at Dorothy et al for being up her butt, making the request to look into life drawing classes for her anyway, then failing to express any sort of appreciation for Dorothy’s prompt follow-through, it is tone-deaf at best to joke about.
Dorothy is not invested in the life-drawing classes. She is invested in helping someone she cares about. By presenting it as something Dorothy is having her do, Joyce is continuing to fail to acknowledge Dorothy’s helpfulness.
DailyBrad
It’d be tone deaf to do to Dorothy, though it’s honestly not a big deal to joke about when she’s not around, especially to someone who has known her for years and knows how Dorothy can be very goal-oriented, so I doubt Joe really needs any telling Joyce isn’t being literal.
Joyce does owe Dorothy an apology in the future, I’d say, but for now, this isn’t a very big deal.
Liliet
Actually I’m pretty sure Joyce means it pretty close to literally, and it’s VERY connected to Joyce blowing up at Dorothy.
Dorothy is, to put it simply, acting as Joyce’s mom, and Joyce was NOT taught how to say no to her mom. Someone arranges an opportunity for you = you are obligated to take it. That’s part of WHY Joyce gets upset at Dorothy – she is not only bad at respecting other people’s boundaries, she’s also bad at setting her own, and Dorothy is obliviously tromping all over where they would have been.
Like, turning “could you look up what life drawing classes are there” to “I talked to the instructor of this specific one and bought you supplies!” is specifically a boundary overstep. Getting more involved than Dorothy was asked to be. Which is exactly Joyce’s problem with “being up her ass”.
It’s not actually a trivial skill to say “no” to favors done to you. Joyce doesn’t know how to just… not go to the class, and then just tell Dorothy “well, I didn’t ask you to arrange all that, did I? I just wanted information, not to go to the first one you found”
Also, as discussed in the comments of the Dorothy-storming-off strip:
Dorothy did not ‘arrange’ for Joyce to be in the class. She asked the instructor if sit-ins are allowed, which is an extremely relevant piece of information, from the most reliable source.
DailyBrad
Right. The only thing people have pointed to that I feel like was overstepping was maybe getting her the sketch pad, but I mean, Joyce does want to get better at her art, so it is something she’d want. I don’t think Dorothy was making a big leap.
Liliet
It’s only relevant if Joyce wants to sit in on this particular class, which JOyce had given no indication of. Unasked for favors are overstepping and can easily engender a feeling of obligation, which is exactly what Joyce is expressing here.
Tan
‘Research life drawing classes for me’. Dorothy offered a complete list of all classes that fit the criteria: is a life drawing class, does not directly conflict with Joyce’s other classes, has open seats, allows sit-ins. Because any class that does not fit all those criteria would be useless and irrelevant to Joyce. That complete list was one class.
The ONLY unasked-for favor was buying her art supplies for the class. If that in particular was the only thing Joyce was ungrateful toward, I would be on Joyce’s side entirely (and really probably so would Dorothy). But Joyce is continuing to be a shit about Dorothy doing a favor that Joyce specifically asked for.
alongcameaspider
I think you’re taking the “Dorothy’s orders” comment a bit too seriously
Mark
Perhaps. If Dorothy did that to me, even the little I know about her would make me think, “oh, well, that’s just the way Dorothy Get-It-Done-Now Keener operates.”
I think it is goddamn fucking wild that it is impossible for any two characters to have an interaction in this strip without being analyzed by the metric of Who’s More Wrong, even when the people interacting *aren’t even in conflict*.
Taffy
Sometimes, they don’t even need to be on-panel together.
Justnobodyfqwl
I’ve literally been reading this comic for 10 years at this point and at some point the comment section became a competitive sport of people trying to go out of their way to willingly misinterpret everything every single character does in as bad faith as physically possible.
Alex
I think that is an unfortunate side effect of having every minute interaction open for comments and discussion. There’s less of a chance to view the big picture and instead it’s easy to nitpick about small things.
Yeah. Joe is the guy who famously made a “Do List” for a significant portion of the girls on campus. Not exactly a glowing character reference for not being a creep.
149 thoughts on “Orders”
darkoneko
wow, this sure is going in a direction.
Alex
Underrated comment right here.
Ana Chronistic
Joe, later: “That’s no lady, that’s my wife!”
wait no…?
The Wellerman
For those of you bummed about the pizza thing, relax.
The way I see it, minus the food part, this is an upgrade from pizza! ?
The Wellerman
Wait is it? Lemme know what you all think, my brain is melted from a day worth of coding ?
Tootles!!!
True Survivor
Live drawing a naked person, especially as a date sounds awful. Awkward and the added pressure of performance anxiety so you’re date doesn’t think you’re an artless monkey who lacks the basic motor skills to draw simple shapes. At least with Pizza, everyone should have their clothes on and if it goes poorly, Joyce still makes it out with a free meal.
Yotomoe
It could be a pretty fun date if you’re both artists tho. You could compare techniques at the end of the night. Have a moment where you’re like “why don’t you keep my sketch and I’ll keep yours”
Bridgebrain
Or if you’re both chill about being terrible artists. Like bob ross painting nights, there’s no mistakes, only happy little accidents (and laughter over how much your drawing kind of looks like a cat somehow?)
Thag Simmons
I would absolutely prefer a pizza date IRL, but for the purposes of a scenario in a slice of life comic bringing the guy you have a mutual crush on to a life drawing class is extremely good
v.gay.person
I’m team naked people art. I prefer having an activity to occupy my brain/hands over just sitting and staring at each others eye globes. Parallel play for the win
The Wellerman
? sounds like my kinda date
True Survivor
PS. May you brain freeze once again … wait no that’s bad too. Though an acceptable sacrifice for ice-cream?
Keulen
I think I’d rather have pizza as a date, than trying to draw a naked person. Pizza would be way less awkward for me, though I’m already super awkward regardless.
justin8448
I feel that a drawing-naked-people date is high risk, high reward.
The one thing it won’t be is boring.
Bryy
I’m bummed out Joe isn’t the pee-pee model.
Rose by Any Other Name
“Gettin lots of PP. Hell yeah baby PP.”
Clif
There’s still Jacob.
Fay
I’m pretty sure if that happened the story would end up being pretty short because Joyce would just straight up sprint out of there.
Jahu
Well, hey, there’s always the possibility that the scheduled model ghosts last-minute and they need a replacement…
Doctor_Who
Joe: “I got it. A place where you can check out the human form, and nobody will mind me being there too.”
(Cut to: a thrilled Joe and humiliated Joyce at a strip club.)
Yotomoe
Unironically I have considered doing life drawing in a strip club just because I think you’d get good poses and just a strong sense of motion.
anon
i wouldn’t be surprised if some ppl do that but you’d still have to tip the same amount i’d think
Yotomoe
Oh for sure. I mean let’s be fair, it’s also polite to tip models in general.
Creatrix Tiara
There are a bunch of life drawing classes that incorporate burlesque dancers for similar reasons!
v.gay.person
holy shit my favourite magician reads the same comic as me! 😀
thakoru
I feel like half the point of a life drawing model is that they aren’t moving. Like, sure, you should learn how to draw motion at some point, but you first need to learn how to draw things that aren’t moving.
(Actually, I’m kind of curious if “sense of motion” as an artistic technique is a relatively new thing. Thinking about, like, Renaissance paintings, I feel like they generally don’t convey motion very well – their figures always have a sort of posed look, indicating motion in the abstract but never actually appearing to be moving. And thinking about it in practical terms, I’m not sure how you would study motion as an artist in an era before photography. I don’t know anything about art history, so I’m sort of posing this as a question in the hope that someone here does.)
Yotomoe
You study motion by drawing figures in motion. Simple as that. Life drawing has several stages. Quick poses, 30-second, 1 minute, 2 minute, 5 minute, 30 minute, hour and so on and so on. I’ve life drawn people just walking out in public. The idea is to quickly capture the line of action, the line from their head down to their feet that their body follows and then fill in the blanks from your mind.
Also there are PLENTY of renaissance paintings conveying a BEAUTIFUL sense of motion. It’s just not necessarily the ones that are popular. The more static portraits are just that. Portraits, usually of wealthy people who could afford to commission the artist. Who wanted a static image of themselves looking regal to hang up in their foyer or what have you. It’s more so that that’s just the style of the time. It’s also worth noting the art colleges had very specific Ideas of what is “real” art. And so that’s the art that tends to survive.
v.gay.person
I like going out but dislike people so the solution has been going to (punk/metal/art) events and drawing people and motions. Like, often it’s not “drawing people” like some people can, it’s watching people and the way their bodies move and drawing the *movement* when they move and then creating new bodies around them.
No worries about consent cos it’s never a drawing of the actual person, just like a starting sketch of the motion of the arms and core filled in with various details based on whatever I want to practice (eg, I’m practicing male/very muscular bodies cos I’m way more comfy drawing very soft, round bodies but I’ll do multiple sketches off the same motion/pose)
drs
I would think you’d have to be careful to ask permission before doing that.
v.gay.person
Maybe at a strip club, at least paying for your time there. I sketch at dance clubs (more bc it helps me regulate anxiety/zero in on details and not be bogged down by the all-ness) but it rarely means actually drawing individual people, more like composite drawings based on multiple individual parts/movements.
(Like, take the shadowing from here, the nose/jawline from there, the body motion from over there, some other outfit/fashion inspo and you end up with a totally individual sketch. Or my fave thing is just trying to draw faces I see in x-amount of lines/shapes)
MechaBill
Toulouse Lautrec did that and became famous for it.
Lily
I mean, depending on where you go/unless you pay extra i don’t think the lighting would be very good?
Yotomoe
It’s gonna be really hard to draw the naked lady if I am not allowed to look at the naked lady.
JBento
Joe has already seen that specific naked lady naked, and will draw from memory.
Deanatay
Model: Hi, Joe! *winks*
Joe: Hi, Celeste!
*instructor clears throat*
Celeste: What? He rated me 9.5 out of 10 – said my breasts were-
Joyce: YES THANK YOU CMON JOE WE’RE LEAVING
Ed Rhodes
I would have thought; “Dumbing Of Age – Book 13 – Creepos Have Accomplices!”
shadowcell
Dumbing of Age Book 13: You Will Avert Your Eyes If the Naked Person Is a Lady!
Thag Simmons
[Sickos Voice] Yes! Ha Ha Ha! Yes!
Needfuldoer
Yes! Ha ha ha! YES!
DailyBrad
I guess this likely means Joe isn’t the model.
Maybe Jacob?
RassilonTDavros
…oh, this I gotta see.
Doctor_Who
He’s super chill about it too, and happily waves to and greets them as they come in.
J. Gawain
Taking all bets on how this scenario could possibly be more awkward.
drs
Mary.
Peter.
Miri
… Jacob and Lucy?
Fay
It’s Malaya and they start flirting with Joe and bringing up the two of them having slept together.
Thag Simmons
I’m not going to get my hopes up but that would be extremely good
Nathan
I am utterly fascinated by the ways in which Joyce’s mind works.
Sirksome
Dorothy didn’t order you to go. You expressed interest when the topic was suggested and then bit Dorothy’s head off for being to up your ass about period pills. Don’t slander your mother Joyce!
Cerusee
There is…really no reason whatsoever to think Joyce means “orders” literally, and not figuratively, to indicate to the audience that Joyce did in fact pick up on how invested Dorothy was, in the life-drawing class she’d arranged for Joyce to sit in on.
Tan
While I agree that Joyce certainly didn’t mean it literally, given the context of Joyce yelling at Dorothy et al for being up her butt, making the request to look into life drawing classes for her anyway, then failing to express any sort of appreciation for Dorothy’s prompt follow-through, it is tone-deaf at best to joke about.
Dorothy is not invested in the life-drawing classes. She is invested in helping someone she cares about. By presenting it as something Dorothy is having her do, Joyce is continuing to fail to acknowledge Dorothy’s helpfulness.
DailyBrad
It’d be tone deaf to do to Dorothy, though it’s honestly not a big deal to joke about when she’s not around, especially to someone who has known her for years and knows how Dorothy can be very goal-oriented, so I doubt Joe really needs any telling Joyce isn’t being literal.
Joyce does owe Dorothy an apology in the future, I’d say, but for now, this isn’t a very big deal.
Liliet
Actually I’m pretty sure Joyce means it pretty close to literally, and it’s VERY connected to Joyce blowing up at Dorothy.
Dorothy is, to put it simply, acting as Joyce’s mom, and Joyce was NOT taught how to say no to her mom. Someone arranges an opportunity for you = you are obligated to take it. That’s part of WHY Joyce gets upset at Dorothy – she is not only bad at respecting other people’s boundaries, she’s also bad at setting her own, and Dorothy is obliviously tromping all over where they would have been.
Like, turning “could you look up what life drawing classes are there” to “I talked to the instructor of this specific one and bought you supplies!” is specifically a boundary overstep. Getting more involved than Dorothy was asked to be. Which is exactly Joyce’s problem with “being up her ass”.
It’s not actually a trivial skill to say “no” to favors done to you. Joyce doesn’t know how to just… not go to the class, and then just tell Dorothy “well, I didn’t ask you to arrange all that, did I? I just wanted information, not to go to the first one you found”
Ed Callahan
Joyce is griping. Affectionately. People do that.
Tan
Also, as discussed in the comments of the Dorothy-storming-off strip:
Dorothy did not ‘arrange’ for Joyce to be in the class. She asked the instructor if sit-ins are allowed, which is an extremely relevant piece of information, from the most reliable source.
DailyBrad
Right. The only thing people have pointed to that I feel like was overstepping was maybe getting her the sketch pad, but I mean, Joyce does want to get better at her art, so it is something she’d want. I don’t think Dorothy was making a big leap.
Liliet
It’s only relevant if Joyce wants to sit in on this particular class, which JOyce had given no indication of. Unasked for favors are overstepping and can easily engender a feeling of obligation, which is exactly what Joyce is expressing here.
Tan
‘Research life drawing classes for me’. Dorothy offered a complete list of all classes that fit the criteria: is a life drawing class, does not directly conflict with Joyce’s other classes, has open seats, allows sit-ins. Because any class that does not fit all those criteria would be useless and irrelevant to Joyce. That complete list was one class.
The ONLY unasked-for favor was buying her art supplies for the class. If that in particular was the only thing Joyce was ungrateful toward, I would be on Joyce’s side entirely (and really probably so would Dorothy). But Joyce is continuing to be a shit about Dorothy doing a favor that Joyce specifically asked for.
alongcameaspider
I think you’re taking the “Dorothy’s orders” comment a bit too seriously
Mark
Perhaps. If Dorothy did that to me, even the little I know about her would make me think, “oh, well, that’s just the way Dorothy Get-It-Done-Now Keener operates.”
Cerusee
I think it is goddamn fucking wild that it is impossible for any two characters to have an interaction in this strip without being analyzed by the metric of Who’s More Wrong, even when the people interacting *aren’t even in conflict*.
Taffy
Sometimes, they don’t even need to be on-panel together.
Justnobodyfqwl
I’ve literally been reading this comic for 10 years at this point and at some point the comment section became a competitive sport of people trying to go out of their way to willingly misinterpret everything every single character does in as bad faith as physically possible.
Alex
I think that is an unfortunate side effect of having every minute interaction open for comments and discussion. There’s less of a chance to view the big picture and instead it’s easy to nitpick about small things.
TulipKitten
Joyce really didn’t think that one through. Bringing Joe to seem less creepy.
Doctor_Who
Joe: “Can I run and get my trenchcoat and shades?”
Joyce: “Of course, it’s winter and there’s always a glare on the snow.”
Joe: “And a tub of Crisco?”
Joyce: “Ooh, are you going to bake? The class will really welcome us if we bring snacks!”
True Survivor
Yeah. Joe is the guy who famously made a “Do List” for a significant portion of the girls on campus. Not exactly a glowing character reference for not being a creep.
Ed Callahan
He did publicly apologize. With doughnuts.
BBCC
I hope we don’t skip over this class because this promises to be hilarious.
Thag Simmons
I don’t think you set a premise this good up and then don’t follow through
Needfuldoer
Willis posted a preview panel of Joyce in the life drawing class a while back.
butting