I don’t think there’s any concrete statement on the matter, unless Willis has done some Word of God thing. I always got the impression that she is still Christian, but I’m sure The Cheese and Resurrection Chambers and a Ghost Alien have done a number on her.
Things like the factual existence of bodiless souls would, I think, make atheism a much more dubious proposition in the walkyverse. She’d have less reason to abandon theism.
Not that it stopped Dina even when she was what is perceived as one. Not to mention, existence of one or some elements of a thing don’t automatically prove everything related to the thing.
Welllll… the existence of a soul separate from the body is actually not very well supported (read: basically not at all) by the actual text of the Bible.
She wasn’t interested in my apology, so I assume she wouldn’t have been interested in any apology.
Reltzik
She also said she wasn’t interested in Liz’s apology.
Vivvav
Eh, to be fair to Joyce, I don’t think there’s anything she could possibly say that Becky would’ve taken well in that moment, even if it was the most thoughtful apology in the world. Becky was just not in a place to listen to that kind of thing.
I mean it’s all still Joyce’s fault but she’s right.
Well, it’s VERY difficult to accept one’s former bestie MOCKING YOU behind your back and FIVE SECOND LATER being sincerely apologetic, that kind of introspection isn’t THAT fast, ESPECIALLY at THAT age
Seregiel
Oh, I disagree. I can remember some moments that right after my brain went: and then, I made a mistake. Brace for impact.
That said, bffs can generally tell someone’s tone/body language and Joyce wasn’t ready to apologize, so insincerity anyways.
Sirksome
I don’t think Becky was looking for an apology, she wanted an explanation and Joyce’s explanation was “Well I’m an atheist now because you’re gay and that conflicted with my faith so I dumped it, why haven’t you?” Which is not a comforting explanation even if it’s true.
Technically, that’s probably true. But it’s not anywhere close to a meaningful description of the interaction. Anyways, Joyce has some stuff to work through not around Becky, or she’ll keep bungling any apology. Showing up for actually having an argument instead of letting Becky just leave might have been the best choice in that situation anyways. Shows she cares what Becky thinks at least.
It’s Becky’s prerogative to not *accept* Joyce’s apology, but that doesn’t make the previous strip where Joyce said “I’m sorry, Becky, I’m really, really sorry” not exist. Joyce literally said those words! “Becky isn’t interested in an apology” is a completely factual description of what just happened between them! Anybody remotely tuned into this could probably infer that they did not make up.
The fact that this rift between Joyce and Becky was *not* resolved by Joyce apologizing doesn’t mean the apology didn’t take place; it is an incredibly clear demonstration that it’s about a rift too deep and too painful to be solved by an apology or one short argument, however harsh.
Sure Joyce apologized, but almost immediately after she started trying to argue with Becky over how Becky shouldn’t keep her faith. Which sort of negates the apology. Becky outright asked her “do you really think I’m an idiot because I still believe in God” and Joyce tried to start a theological argument. Joyce basically said that Becky doesn’t have a right to be upset because she’s wrong. Also, it can take time for an apology to be accepted, even a genuine one. We can’t say someone is a bad person just because they don’t immediately forgive someone after they apologize.
Spencer
She started arguing because Becky told her that her apology was fake.
Jenn
Because her apology *was* fake.
Thag Simmons
Nothing Joyce said was insincere.
Spencer
For Joyce’s apology to be fake would imply that Joyce thinks the act of causing pain to Becky is something she’s totally okay and happy with and just needs to lie to get the status quo back in order.
Segnosaur
Yes, Joyce’s apology was followed up by an argument…
But I do think Becky had a little to do with that. Her blunt “Sorry I heard you!” (as well as some of her other statements/accusations) would have been enough to derail many people’s thought processes.
APersonAmI
“We can’t say someone is a bad person just because they don’t immediately forgive someone after they apologize.”
… Okay? But that’s not at all what Cerusee said. They’re not calling Becky a bad person. They’re saying that Becky can be unforgiving even if Joyce apologize. Which is what happened. One does not negate the other.
I feel like you might be either responding to the wrong comment, or projecting things into Cerusee’s comment that are not there.
Yeah but that wasn’t really an apology. After Joyce said that Becky countered “Sorry I heard you.” and not only did Joyce never deny it, she hung her head in acknowledgment. She knows she didn’t apologize for what she did, only that she got caught.
AntJ
Because the heart of the conflict is that Joyce *isn’t* sorry for losing her faith. Becky wouldn’t have been placated by anything less than Joyce assuring her she was still Christian, and Joyce couldn’t lie to her again.
Thag Simmons
I’m not entirely sure about that. Becky at least seems to think she’d be okay with it under different circumstances, given how she responds when Johce brings up Dina.
Spencer
Have you possibly considered that Joyce is actually remorseful for the pain she thinks she caused Becky, and then continuing to push it is an exercise in futility because Becky won’t hear it?
What is she supposed to say? Why is she supposed to be so good at wordsmithing she can conjure up the magic apology that’ll get her feelings across that Becky has already labelled stupid bullshit?
Some1
I mean, perhaps a good start would have been to just say “no” when Becky asked, “do you really think I’m an idiot just because I still believe in God?” She could have said. “no, I’ve been having my own issues with losing my faith and I got caught up in the moment. I’m sorry.” If she had done that I would probably be a bit more on Joyce’s side. Rather she essentially says “yes” when Becky asks her if she thinks Becky is an idiot by outright explaining how Becky is wrong.
Spencer
Okay so that’s still asking Joyce, after Becky has already affirmed to her that she does not believe she is capable of being sorry, to convey in so many words her wild outrage over her abusive cult upbringing, her current disbelief at everything she used to believe as unshakeable fact, and to somehow separate Becky from all the bad parts when as far as Joyce knew, because Becky was already running on this assumption, both of them approached their upbringing in the exact same way and came away with the exact same conclusions.
Meaning at the moment, right now, when she has made the step into accepting that she is a monkey and was given her first chance in her life to just be good and vengeful about all the trash she was handed and told was gourmet dinner, maybe Becky is part of all of this just by association and if Joyce had time to process this on her own time, as in she could do this without Becky and Dorothy stalking her for going off-script, then maybe she could eventually find a way to process the idea that she can think Becky is objectively wrong about life the universe and everything and also it doesn’t have to change much between them, because Becky is currently very much in love with someone who thinks and acts the same way.
Because that doesn’t sound like something Joyce can do, it sounds like Teddy Roosevelt.
Airyu
But Joyce wasn’t sorry – her “apology” amounted to “Sorry YOU were hurt” not “Sorry I said people who think like you including you are all idiots.” Taking yourself out of the equation is the standard YouTuber / celebrity “apology” that’s not a real one. Just because I say the word “sorry” doesn’t mean it’s an apology
Spencer
Yeah that’s because Joyce is sorry that Becky was hurt. As in despite what she thinks now, Becky matters enough that she doesn’t want to hurt her. The kind of apology you’re talking about involves deflecting from owning harm, but Joyce did that except within the specific frame work of “you got hurt and that bothers me.”
Because for Joyce to say “sorry I called you an idiot” (and Becky was not her specific target but we’ll get to that) would mean that Joyce is saying “sorry I called you an idiot for believing in objective falsehoods that you already know are objective falsehoods and yet cling to anyway.”
So here’s the thing, I’m an atheist and when I believed as a child God was just There, as in my life rolled on and God existed as a part of it until he did not. I had faith, it was just an incredibly flimsy faith in that it wasn’t really based on anything that mattered to me. I just knew he was there because everyone knew he was there until I didn’t. My faith isn’t based on anything meaningful to me, so for me to assert faith as idiotic would be an admission that I view everyone who has it as an idiot. I don’t get it, ergo it is wrong.
Becky’s faith is real and it’s more real than Joyce’s has ever been, and her ability to detach “from the unimportant stuff” is rooted in how if reality contradicts her faith, it’s unimportant because what really matters is God’s unending love for her. From there, Becky is also able to roll with other interpretations of her faith as valid as long as the unimportant stuff doesn’t take precedent. Mary’s not a good Christian, for example, because even though Mary probably believes the earth is millions of years old she hates gay people and hating gay people is unimportant, but Mary decides it’s important enough that her interpretation of faith is right and she can do whatever she wants.
Joyce was taught to obey the bible as a guide of objective reality. She didn’t have faith, she had programming, so once all of that programmed stressed enough it collapsed in on itself and we now have atheist Joyce.
The reason the scene everyone is reading as “Joyce didn’t say Becky wasn’t an idiot, therefore she called her an idiot” happened the way it did because Becky, having refused to accept that Joyce is sorry for hurting her, believes things Joyce is incapable (this is the important word) of processing as valid, the way you wouldn’t understand if I was eating paint. That shit’s bad for you, why in the world would you need to respect me eating paint because I say it’s good for me?
Joyce is currently, as in her atheism is not a belief in God’s non-existence so much as it is everything she’s had sold to her as objective reality vanishing in a puff of smoke with nothing to fill the void, unable to process Becky’s faith because Joyce can only process it as Becky’s continued insistence on accepting objective falsehoods as objective reality like the Earth being 6000 years old and dinosaurs on the ark. She thinks of herself as an idiot for ever believing, she thinks Becky’s an idiot for still believing, and she thinks everyone who believes is an idiot because what part of the Earth not being 6000 years old do you not understand?
Except nobody but Joyce thinks the Earth is 6000 years old. Becky used to and no longer does, but Joyce and Becky grew up with the same beliefs and structures meaning Becky should have processed this the same way Joyce did, much like how Becky treats Joyce’s atheism as a failing on her part for only believing in things that make her better than other people, because if Becky were to say those things it would be outrageously egotistical since she doesn’t have objective facts to back her up, insisting on it would just make her like Mary.
But with Joyce it’s as simple as binary. 0 is atheism, 1 is the objective fact of God’s existence and the bible as a true document of history. That’s not superiority, that’s just math.
I gotta stop doing these because I can’t even tackle one part of it without needing to get into a hundred other details and they take like half an hour.
Fist_of_Life
Good write up Spencer. Joyce not being able to process Becky’s viewpoint is extremely important to what happened on the stairs. Becky would’ve been interested in Joyce apologizing for calling her an idiot, but without being able to see Becky’s point of view, I don’t think she would be able to do that. Unfortunately this all comes down the fact that, at least at this time, Joyce and Becky don’t understand each other.
PigmyWurm
But that’s ultimately the only thing Joyce owes Becky. She ows Becky an explanation and some amount of honesty, which tensions were too high at that point to really get into but essentially the best apology that Joyce could offer would be something along the lines of:
“I have been working out what exactly I belive and was venting about what we were taught when growing up but didn’t want to work through these feelings in front of you where I knew I might hurt you. I’m sorry you came into the middle of that and maybe I should have shared more about what I was feeling.”
Except that can all still be basically summarized as “I’m sorry you heard.” And the tough thing about apologizing for effectively calling Becky an idiot for her beliefs is that Becky still represents what Joyce believed and Joyce definitely believed that she herself had been an idiot. While she could have handed it better is saying “I dont think you are an idiot I think I was an idiot for believing many of the same things that you still believe” really that much better.
Doki
So I actually hate that that’s not considered a ‘real’ apology under any circumstances.
I’ve seen such apologies used as a GET OUT OF TROUBLE FREE card in online drama in cases like the ones you describe, yes. Those are often people I don’t trust are actually sorry for any aspect of what happened, including upsetting people.
However, on the flip side… I personally hate hurting anyone, no matter how it happens. It’s usually an accident – even more indirect and unintentional than what Joyce did here, to clarify – but I still feel absolutely GUTTED when someone is upset because of something I did. Doesn’t matter if their perspective makes sense or not, or if it’s entirely their misinterpretation of me in their head or their bigotry that’s the reason they’re mad at me. I am still always deeply sorry another person was hurt by something I did/my existence.
…but I can’t actually apologize for being queer, or an atheist, or someone else projecting intent and actions on me that aren’t even factually true. So the most I really can say in those situations is that I’m sorry they’re hurt. And I mean it! I am! It’s not a non-apology meant to deflect. It’s an acknowledgment of their pain, whether or not I can actually fix it.
It’s complicated. I know that was a little bit of a tangent, but my actual point is this: sometimes the only thing someone can truly regret and apologize for is that the other person is upset. I can always be empathetic toward someone hurting, but I can’t always take responsibility for someone else’s thought processes regarding me, y’know…?
Doki
(My comment was mostly @ Airyu, BTW)
Spencer
I mean yeah I agree with you, Doki.
It matters to me when I hurt someone I care about, and, like, that pain they’re feeling matters to me, I hate that they’re hurting because of something I did even if it’s something that happens in something I view as asserting myself or refusing to enable, and I do in fact try to express that in ways that can get labeled as insincere because Funny Youtube Man has exploited this to try and draw heat away from his latest Heated Gamer Moment, therefore that means I am also lying.
thejeff
Even if you’re honestly sorry about hurting them, but you stand by the thing you did to hurt them, it’s not really going to help a lot, is it?
Leaving aside the ambiguity in what Joyce said: “I’m sorry you were hurt by me calling you stupid, but I only did it because you are stupid.” That’s not really going to ease anyone’s pain, right?
Doki
@Spencer
Yes. EXACTLY. I really don’t like how some people give such shitty non-apologies that a lot of people won’t accept any nuance in apologies. (Not exactly talking about the comic or these comments yes anymore, but in general?)
@thejeff
I mean, intent makes almost all the difference for me personally, so… I’d say it depends? Not so much in the case of Joyce and Becky, no. But sometimes I think it depends on exactly what the problem is and what you’re willing to do to help fix the hurt (even if you don’t/can’t budge on the initial issue).
…then again, I’ve been told I am very very VERY forgiving, so maybe that’s just me LOL?
thejeff
It is a better. Maybe not enough, but it accomplishes several things. Makes it clear that Joyce is struggling with her own beliefs rather than just happily mocking Becky’s. Makes it clear that she doesn’t really think Becky’s an idiot, even if she’s still thinking badly of her self for that and can’t easily reconcile that.
Part of the problem is that while it can be summarized as you suggest, the summary leaves out all the nuance that makes her more sympathetic. Makes it clear that she wasn’t just sorry Becky heard because she wanted to go on mocking behind her back.
Spencer
the summary leaves out all the nuance that makes her more sympathetic
Who, Joyce? I’m not sure what I missed but I’d be glad to hear it as I probably have a take on that too.
thejeff
Meant to be to PigmyWurm’s “Except that can all still be basically summarized as “I’m sorry you heard.””
Apparently I hit reply in the wrong spot.
Cerusee
“I reject your apology” doesn’t mean the apology didn’t happen. It means you rejected the apology.
Anyone can refuse an apology! It’s fine! You’re allowed to feel like someone’s apology is insufficient! But Joyce didn’t say “I’m sorry if your feelings were hurt,” she said “I’m sorry, I’m really sorry,” and Becky refused to accept it because—and this is what mattered—she’s not really angry that Joyce made a mistake and accidentally hurt her feelings; Becky is angry and upset that *Joyce doesn’t believe what Becky believes*, and Joyce refused to take that back.
It’s really fruitless and exhausting to be locked into a mindset that says that any time someone gets hurt, it has to be someone else’s fault, or that every conflict springs from someone having done something wrong. Sometimes people are in conflict! And it can’t be magically smoothed away in one moment by someone just saying exactly the right words! Joyce genuinely tried, it didn’t take, and it’s not because she didn’t apologize the EXACT RIGHT WAY, or that she didn’t try, or because she doesn’t care about Becky and Becky’s wounded feelings. It’s that they’re at odds about something fundamentally really important to both of them. Becky thinks Joyce thinks the wrong things. To her, an apology that isn’t a renunciation of those wrong thoughts doesn’t count.
anonymsly
Agreed 100%, thank you.
Nono
The problem is that Becky clarified what Joyce was apologising for. “Sorry I heard you.” And Joyce didn’t have a rebuttal.
Joyce apologised for the result, Becky wants an apology for the reason.
Jamie
Which is fundamentally not something you can apologize for, IMO.
You can apologize for actions you’ve taken, but not for what you are or what you believe.
Thulcandran
My reading is that Joyce apologized for the result (Becky felt hurt), rather than the reason (Joyce said some cruel things). “Sorry you were hurt by what I said” is, in fact, kind of a shitty apology.
Becky didn’t ask Joyce to apologize for being an atheist, but for openly mocking her behind her back. And frankly, even if Joyce was talking about herself, not Becky, what she said was cruel. Becky was well within bounds to want Joyce to apologize for being cruel.
What Becky walked in on was not Joyce talking about the sky sea, but this gem: “Lookit me! I believe in God! I think anything matters and that any bad stuff that happens to me is part of some grand design to teach me life lessons instead of just being friggin’ random bullshit.”
Joyce didn’t owe Becky an apology for thinking God didn’t exist, but she sure as hell owed her one for “Lookit me! I believe in God!”
Thulcandran
(I’m gonna add that despite the many, many comments saying that Becky demanded Joyce change her beliefs, I don’t see that anywhere in this argument. She doesn’t ask “How could you turn from God?” she asks “Do you really think I’m an idiot for believing in God?”
Joyce, though I sympathize deeply with her, is the one who comes much closer to insisting that Becky change. She’s the one who says “How on earth are you the one of us refusing to let go of it?!”)
King Daniel
@Thulcandran: Yeah, at this point that’s essentially my reading of that part as well.
Michael L
Can you explain how Joyce said anything cruel? Hurtful perhaps, but unintentional and not targeted at Becky, and I’m not sure unintentional, untargeted *cruelty* is a thing. It wasn’t something Becky was meant to hear. Joyce wasn’t talking about Becky, she was talking about herself, or her prior self. She is sorry that Becky was hurt by what she said, she is sorry that Becky heard it when it was clearly not meant for her.
Imagine a PoC complaining in a group of other PoCs about white people all being racist, and their white friend happens to walk in right at that moment and then getting mad that the PoC was calling them racist. You know what? Don’t take it f’ing personally. The world is complicated and people have complex feelings.
Tarawat
I understand where you’re coming from here, but it’s not as thought Joyce intended Becky to hear her. She deliberately took herself away from Becky (and Dorothy) and all her usual responsibilities to go and yell cathartic things.
What she said was ugly and a bit childish. But it’s the first chance she’s had to just scream it all out. I 100% read her ‘look at me’ comments as an attack on herself and her past beliefs. And yes maybe there’s some contempt for Becky in there too – because Joyce hasn’t had time to process how to fit her own loss of faith and Becky’s ongoing faith together in their friendship.
But I think her apologising that Becky heard without apologising for what she said is fair enough, actually.
Thulcandran
@Michael L
With all due respect, I think it’s deeply inappropriate to compare a conversation between young atheists about Christians being stupid and gullible to a conversation between people of color about whiteness and white behavior being a problem.
I’m also not convinced that Joyce was talking about only herself. That’s been asserted in the comments, but what she was mocking was belief in “a sky wizard” and, more specifically, that idea “loves me.” That’s what she was mocking.
I’m not Christian, but I absolutely did have friends who were 100% cool talking about how Christianity was stupid and Paganism was superior in every way back when I was.And it is personal, and it is hurtful. And, again, Joyce is the one saying Becky should change her beliefs, not the other way around.
Thulcandran
Oh what the hell, is the reply function ever going to work for me?
oz
I agree with Cerusee, but the thing is, Joyce is also upset that Becky doens’t believe what she believes. For this conflict to be resolved they will both have to accept that they believe different things, and that they will continue to believe different things, and that they always believed different things, and neither of them is willing to see that right now. So they can’t get to that step where Joyce says “no, you’re not an idiot, I was” because she doesn’t see her ideas as different from Becky’s… and Becky also can’t say “ok, you did believe all this stupid bs that I thought was uninportant” because she just can’t conceive of that
Literally as Becky said Joyce was not sorry about what she said just that she got caught. It’s pretty deceptive to say she doesn’t want an apology when Joyce didn’t really give a true one. You can’t actually apologize if you don’t mean it
I mean, she didn’t know Joyce was hiding out from Dorothy and Becky. Posting where she was going was a fairly innocuous thing to do, even if naming it the way she did was a little odd
I’m also thinking WFT Liz? Because after her sanctimonious rant about not caring about burning bridges over her atheism, she’s still posting to FB as if she’s a believer (unless it’s just sarcasm so dry it could serve in place of desiccant packets.
King Daniel
When we first met her, she said she was still posing as a believer on Facebook to please her stepmom.
Thulcandran
She’s probably a lot more dependent on her stepmom’s goodwill than Joyce is on Becky, to be fair.
441 thoughts on “Not interested”
Ana Chronistic
IDontKnowWhatYouExpected.gif
Ana Chronistic
whoops deleted my cookies
*re-adds Tumblr link that only gets updated in October, apparently*
A Red Balloon
What did you expect?
Pumpkin juice?
Decidedly Orthogonal
Foursquare would finally have proven useful.
ThunderNight
so wait, is Joyce still a christian in the walkyverse or did she become atheist over there as well?
Black Drazon
I don’t think there’s any concrete statement on the matter, unless Willis has done some Word of God thing. I always got the impression that she is still Christian, but I’m sure The Cheese and Resurrection Chambers and a Ghost Alien have done a number on her.
Decidedly Orthogonal
The irony packed into that first sentence. ?
King Daniel
Walkyverse!Joyce is still a Christian last we saw her, yes.
aelfwine
Things like the factual existence of bodiless souls would, I think, make atheism a much more dubious proposition in the walkyverse. She’d have less reason to abandon theism.
Rex Vivat
Not that it stopped Dina even when she was what is perceived as one. Not to mention, existence of one or some elements of a thing don’t automatically prove everything related to the thing.
A Red Balloon
So true!!!
I wish I could upvote this!
motorfirebox
Welllll… the existence of a soul separate from the body is actually not very well supported (read: basically not at all) by the actual text of the Bible.
C.T. Phipps
Well she probably will gradually drift to Cheesus.
Sirksome
What happens in Joe’s sin den, stays in Joe’s sin den.
Wizard
Today’s strip suggests that is very much not the case.
Ana Chronistic
Except when it was filmed and made a headline
Nono
Wow, Panel 1 Joyce. ‘Not interested in an apology’?
Sirksome
She’s not wrong. She did say “sorry” and Becky was not receptive to it.
Thag Simmons
She wasn’t interested in my apology, so I assume she wouldn’t have been interested in any apology.
Reltzik
She also said she wasn’t interested in Liz’s apology.
Vivvav
Eh, to be fair to Joyce, I don’t think there’s anything she could possibly say that Becky would’ve taken well in that moment, even if it was the most thoughtful apology in the world. Becky was just not in a place to listen to that kind of thing.
I mean it’s all still Joyce’s fault but she’s right.
Ana Chronistic
Well, it’s VERY difficult to accept one’s former bestie MOCKING YOU behind your back and FIVE SECOND LATER being sincerely apologetic, that kind of introspection isn’t THAT fast, ESPECIALLY at THAT age
Seregiel
Oh, I disagree. I can remember some moments that right after my brain went: and then, I made a mistake. Brace for impact.
That said, bffs can generally tell someone’s tone/body language and Joyce wasn’t ready to apologize, so insincerity anyways.
Sirksome
I don’t think Becky was looking for an apology, she wanted an explanation and Joyce’s explanation was “Well I’m an atheist now because you’re gay and that conflicted with my faith so I dumped it, why haven’t you?” Which is not a comforting explanation even if it’s true.
Huehuetotl
Technically, that’s probably true. But it’s not anywhere close to a meaningful description of the interaction. Anyways, Joyce has some stuff to work through not around Becky, or she’ll keep bungling any apology. Showing up for actually having an argument instead of letting Becky just leave might have been the best choice in that situation anyways. Shows she cares what Becky thinks at least.
Jflb96
And now she actually has a chance to be not around Becky!
Cerusee
…Joyce *did* apologize. Becky wasn’t having it.
It’s Becky’s prerogative to not *accept* Joyce’s apology, but that doesn’t make the previous strip where Joyce said “I’m sorry, Becky, I’m really, really sorry” not exist. Joyce literally said those words! “Becky isn’t interested in an apology” is a completely factual description of what just happened between them! Anybody remotely tuned into this could probably infer that they did not make up.
The fact that this rift between Joyce and Becky was *not* resolved by Joyce apologizing doesn’t mean the apology didn’t take place; it is an incredibly clear demonstration that it’s about a rift too deep and too painful to be solved by an apology or one short argument, however harsh.
Some1
Sure Joyce apologized, but almost immediately after she started trying to argue with Becky over how Becky shouldn’t keep her faith. Which sort of negates the apology. Becky outright asked her “do you really think I’m an idiot because I still believe in God” and Joyce tried to start a theological argument. Joyce basically said that Becky doesn’t have a right to be upset because she’s wrong. Also, it can take time for an apology to be accepted, even a genuine one. We can’t say someone is a bad person just because they don’t immediately forgive someone after they apologize.
Spencer
She started arguing because Becky told her that her apology was fake.
Jenn
Because her apology *was* fake.
Thag Simmons
Nothing Joyce said was insincere.
Spencer
For Joyce’s apology to be fake would imply that Joyce thinks the act of causing pain to Becky is something she’s totally okay and happy with and just needs to lie to get the status quo back in order.
Segnosaur
Yes, Joyce’s apology was followed up by an argument…
But I do think Becky had a little to do with that. Her blunt “Sorry I heard you!” (as well as some of her other statements/accusations) would have been enough to derail many people’s thought processes.
APersonAmI
“We can’t say someone is a bad person just because they don’t immediately forgive someone after they apologize.”
… Okay? But that’s not at all what Cerusee said. They’re not calling Becky a bad person. They’re saying that Becky can be unforgiving even if Joyce apologize. Which is what happened. One does not negate the other.
I feel like you might be either responding to the wrong comment, or projecting things into Cerusee’s comment that are not there.
MisterJinKC
Yeah but that wasn’t really an apology. After Joyce said that Becky countered “Sorry I heard you.” and not only did Joyce never deny it, she hung her head in acknowledgment. She knows she didn’t apologize for what she did, only that she got caught.
AntJ
Because the heart of the conflict is that Joyce *isn’t* sorry for losing her faith. Becky wouldn’t have been placated by anything less than Joyce assuring her she was still Christian, and Joyce couldn’t lie to her again.
Thag Simmons
I’m not entirely sure about that. Becky at least seems to think she’d be okay with it under different circumstances, given how she responds when Johce brings up Dina.
Spencer
Have you possibly considered that Joyce is actually remorseful for the pain she thinks she caused Becky, and then continuing to push it is an exercise in futility because Becky won’t hear it?
What is she supposed to say? Why is she supposed to be so good at wordsmithing she can conjure up the magic apology that’ll get her feelings across that Becky has already labelled stupid bullshit?
Some1
I mean, perhaps a good start would have been to just say “no” when Becky asked, “do you really think I’m an idiot just because I still believe in God?” She could have said. “no, I’ve been having my own issues with losing my faith and I got caught up in the moment. I’m sorry.” If she had done that I would probably be a bit more on Joyce’s side. Rather she essentially says “yes” when Becky asks her if she thinks Becky is an idiot by outright explaining how Becky is wrong.
Spencer
Okay so that’s still asking Joyce, after Becky has already affirmed to her that she does not believe she is capable of being sorry, to convey in so many words her wild outrage over her abusive cult upbringing, her current disbelief at everything she used to believe as unshakeable fact, and to somehow separate Becky from all the bad parts when as far as Joyce knew, because Becky was already running on this assumption, both of them approached their upbringing in the exact same way and came away with the exact same conclusions.
Meaning at the moment, right now, when she has made the step into accepting that she is a monkey and was given her first chance in her life to just be good and vengeful about all the trash she was handed and told was gourmet dinner, maybe Becky is part of all of this just by association and if Joyce had time to process this on her own time, as in she could do this without Becky and Dorothy stalking her for going off-script, then maybe she could eventually find a way to process the idea that she can think Becky is objectively wrong about life the universe and everything and also it doesn’t have to change much between them, because Becky is currently very much in love with someone who thinks and acts the same way.
Because that doesn’t sound like something Joyce can do, it sounds like Teddy Roosevelt.
Airyu
But Joyce wasn’t sorry – her “apology” amounted to “Sorry YOU were hurt” not “Sorry I said people who think like you including you are all idiots.” Taking yourself out of the equation is the standard YouTuber / celebrity “apology” that’s not a real one. Just because I say the word “sorry” doesn’t mean it’s an apology
Spencer
Yeah that’s because Joyce is sorry that Becky was hurt. As in despite what she thinks now, Becky matters enough that she doesn’t want to hurt her. The kind of apology you’re talking about involves deflecting from owning harm, but Joyce did that except within the specific frame work of “you got hurt and that bothers me.”
Because for Joyce to say “sorry I called you an idiot” (and Becky was not her specific target but we’ll get to that) would mean that Joyce is saying “sorry I called you an idiot for believing in objective falsehoods that you already know are objective falsehoods and yet cling to anyway.”
So here’s the thing, I’m an atheist and when I believed as a child God was just There, as in my life rolled on and God existed as a part of it until he did not. I had faith, it was just an incredibly flimsy faith in that it wasn’t really based on anything that mattered to me. I just knew he was there because everyone knew he was there until I didn’t. My faith isn’t based on anything meaningful to me, so for me to assert faith as idiotic would be an admission that I view everyone who has it as an idiot. I don’t get it, ergo it is wrong.
Becky’s faith is real and it’s more real than Joyce’s has ever been, and her ability to detach “from the unimportant stuff” is rooted in how if reality contradicts her faith, it’s unimportant because what really matters is God’s unending love for her. From there, Becky is also able to roll with other interpretations of her faith as valid as long as the unimportant stuff doesn’t take precedent. Mary’s not a good Christian, for example, because even though Mary probably believes the earth is millions of years old she hates gay people and hating gay people is unimportant, but Mary decides it’s important enough that her interpretation of faith is right and she can do whatever she wants.
Joyce was taught to obey the bible as a guide of objective reality. She didn’t have faith, she had programming, so once all of that programmed stressed enough it collapsed in on itself and we now have atheist Joyce.
The reason the scene everyone is reading as “Joyce didn’t say Becky wasn’t an idiot, therefore she called her an idiot” happened the way it did because Becky, having refused to accept that Joyce is sorry for hurting her, believes things Joyce is incapable (this is the important word) of processing as valid, the way you wouldn’t understand if I was eating paint. That shit’s bad for you, why in the world would you need to respect me eating paint because I say it’s good for me?
Joyce is currently, as in her atheism is not a belief in God’s non-existence so much as it is everything she’s had sold to her as objective reality vanishing in a puff of smoke with nothing to fill the void, unable to process Becky’s faith because Joyce can only process it as Becky’s continued insistence on accepting objective falsehoods as objective reality like the Earth being 6000 years old and dinosaurs on the ark. She thinks of herself as an idiot for ever believing, she thinks Becky’s an idiot for still believing, and she thinks everyone who believes is an idiot because what part of the Earth not being 6000 years old do you not understand?
Except nobody but Joyce thinks the Earth is 6000 years old. Becky used to and no longer does, but Joyce and Becky grew up with the same beliefs and structures meaning Becky should have processed this the same way Joyce did, much like how Becky treats Joyce’s atheism as a failing on her part for only believing in things that make her better than other people, because if Becky were to say those things it would be outrageously egotistical since she doesn’t have objective facts to back her up, insisting on it would just make her like Mary.
But with Joyce it’s as simple as binary. 0 is atheism, 1 is the objective fact of God’s existence and the bible as a true document of history. That’s not superiority, that’s just math.
I gotta stop doing these because I can’t even tackle one part of it without needing to get into a hundred other details and they take like half an hour.
Fist_of_Life
Good write up Spencer. Joyce not being able to process Becky’s viewpoint is extremely important to what happened on the stairs. Becky would’ve been interested in Joyce apologizing for calling her an idiot, but without being able to see Becky’s point of view, I don’t think she would be able to do that. Unfortunately this all comes down the fact that, at least at this time, Joyce and Becky don’t understand each other.
PigmyWurm
But that’s ultimately the only thing Joyce owes Becky. She ows Becky an explanation and some amount of honesty, which tensions were too high at that point to really get into but essentially the best apology that Joyce could offer would be something along the lines of:
“I have been working out what exactly I belive and was venting about what we were taught when growing up but didn’t want to work through these feelings in front of you where I knew I might hurt you. I’m sorry you came into the middle of that and maybe I should have shared more about what I was feeling.”
Except that can all still be basically summarized as “I’m sorry you heard.” And the tough thing about apologizing for effectively calling Becky an idiot for her beliefs is that Becky still represents what Joyce believed and Joyce definitely believed that she herself had been an idiot. While she could have handed it better is saying “I dont think you are an idiot I think I was an idiot for believing many of the same things that you still believe” really that much better.
Doki
So I actually hate that that’s not considered a ‘real’ apology under any circumstances.
I’ve seen such apologies used as a GET OUT OF TROUBLE FREE card in online drama in cases like the ones you describe, yes. Those are often people I don’t trust are actually sorry for any aspect of what happened, including upsetting people.
However, on the flip side… I personally hate hurting anyone, no matter how it happens. It’s usually an accident – even more indirect and unintentional than what Joyce did here, to clarify – but I still feel absolutely GUTTED when someone is upset because of something I did. Doesn’t matter if their perspective makes sense or not, or if it’s entirely their misinterpretation of me in their head or their bigotry that’s the reason they’re mad at me. I am still always deeply sorry another person was hurt by something I did/my existence.
…but I can’t actually apologize for being queer, or an atheist, or someone else projecting intent and actions on me that aren’t even factually true. So the most I really can say in those situations is that I’m sorry they’re hurt. And I mean it! I am! It’s not a non-apology meant to deflect. It’s an acknowledgment of their pain, whether or not I can actually fix it.
It’s complicated. I know that was a little bit of a tangent, but my actual point is this: sometimes the only thing someone can truly regret and apologize for is that the other person is upset. I can always be empathetic toward someone hurting, but I can’t always take responsibility for someone else’s thought processes regarding me, y’know…?
Doki
(My comment was mostly @ Airyu, BTW)
Spencer
I mean yeah I agree with you, Doki.
It matters to me when I hurt someone I care about, and, like, that pain they’re feeling matters to me, I hate that they’re hurting because of something I did even if it’s something that happens in something I view as asserting myself or refusing to enable, and I do in fact try to express that in ways that can get labeled as insincere because Funny Youtube Man has exploited this to try and draw heat away from his latest Heated Gamer Moment, therefore that means I am also lying.
thejeff
Even if you’re honestly sorry about hurting them, but you stand by the thing you did to hurt them, it’s not really going to help a lot, is it?
Leaving aside the ambiguity in what Joyce said: “I’m sorry you were hurt by me calling you stupid, but I only did it because you are stupid.” That’s not really going to ease anyone’s pain, right?
Doki
@Spencer
Yes. EXACTLY. I really don’t like how some people give such shitty non-apologies that a lot of people won’t accept any nuance in apologies. (Not exactly talking about the comic or these comments yes anymore, but in general?)
@thejeff
I mean, intent makes almost all the difference for me personally, so… I’d say it depends? Not so much in the case of Joyce and Becky, no. But sometimes I think it depends on exactly what the problem is and what you’re willing to do to help fix the hurt (even if you don’t/can’t budge on the initial issue).
…then again, I’ve been told I am very very VERY forgiving, so maybe that’s just me LOL?
thejeff
It is a better. Maybe not enough, but it accomplishes several things. Makes it clear that Joyce is struggling with her own beliefs rather than just happily mocking Becky’s. Makes it clear that she doesn’t really think Becky’s an idiot, even if she’s still thinking badly of her self for that and can’t easily reconcile that.
Part of the problem is that while it can be summarized as you suggest, the summary leaves out all the nuance that makes her more sympathetic. Makes it clear that she wasn’t just sorry Becky heard because she wanted to go on mocking behind her back.
Spencer
the summary leaves out all the nuance that makes her more sympathetic
Who, Joyce? I’m not sure what I missed but I’d be glad to hear it as I probably have a take on that too.
thejeff
Meant to be to PigmyWurm’s “Except that can all still be basically summarized as “I’m sorry you heard.””
Apparently I hit reply in the wrong spot.
Cerusee
“I reject your apology” doesn’t mean the apology didn’t happen. It means you rejected the apology.
Anyone can refuse an apology! It’s fine! You’re allowed to feel like someone’s apology is insufficient! But Joyce didn’t say “I’m sorry if your feelings were hurt,” she said “I’m sorry, I’m really sorry,” and Becky refused to accept it because—and this is what mattered—she’s not really angry that Joyce made a mistake and accidentally hurt her feelings; Becky is angry and upset that *Joyce doesn’t believe what Becky believes*, and Joyce refused to take that back.
It’s really fruitless and exhausting to be locked into a mindset that says that any time someone gets hurt, it has to be someone else’s fault, or that every conflict springs from someone having done something wrong. Sometimes people are in conflict! And it can’t be magically smoothed away in one moment by someone just saying exactly the right words! Joyce genuinely tried, it didn’t take, and it’s not because she didn’t apologize the EXACT RIGHT WAY, or that she didn’t try, or because she doesn’t care about Becky and Becky’s wounded feelings. It’s that they’re at odds about something fundamentally really important to both of them. Becky thinks Joyce thinks the wrong things. To her, an apology that isn’t a renunciation of those wrong thoughts doesn’t count.
anonymsly
Agreed 100%, thank you.
Nono
The problem is that Becky clarified what Joyce was apologising for. “Sorry I heard you.” And Joyce didn’t have a rebuttal.
Joyce apologised for the result, Becky wants an apology for the reason.
Jamie
Which is fundamentally not something you can apologize for, IMO.
You can apologize for actions you’ve taken, but not for what you are or what you believe.
Thulcandran
My reading is that Joyce apologized for the result (Becky felt hurt), rather than the reason (Joyce said some cruel things). “Sorry you were hurt by what I said” is, in fact, kind of a shitty apology.
Becky didn’t ask Joyce to apologize for being an atheist, but for openly mocking her behind her back. And frankly, even if Joyce was talking about herself, not Becky, what she said was cruel. Becky was well within bounds to want Joyce to apologize for being cruel.
What Becky walked in on was not Joyce talking about the sky sea, but this gem: “Lookit me! I believe in God! I think anything matters and that any bad stuff that happens to me is part of some grand design to teach me life lessons instead of just being friggin’ random bullshit.”
Joyce didn’t owe Becky an apology for thinking God didn’t exist, but she sure as hell owed her one for “Lookit me! I believe in God!”
Thulcandran
(I’m gonna add that despite the many, many comments saying that Becky demanded Joyce change her beliefs, I don’t see that anywhere in this argument. She doesn’t ask “How could you turn from God?” she asks “Do you really think I’m an idiot for believing in God?”
Joyce, though I sympathize deeply with her, is the one who comes much closer to insisting that Becky change. She’s the one who says “How on earth are you the one of us refusing to let go of it?!”)
King Daniel
@Thulcandran: Yeah, at this point that’s essentially my reading of that part as well.
Michael L
Can you explain how Joyce said anything cruel? Hurtful perhaps, but unintentional and not targeted at Becky, and I’m not sure unintentional, untargeted *cruelty* is a thing. It wasn’t something Becky was meant to hear. Joyce wasn’t talking about Becky, she was talking about herself, or her prior self. She is sorry that Becky was hurt by what she said, she is sorry that Becky heard it when it was clearly not meant for her.
Imagine a PoC complaining in a group of other PoCs about white people all being racist, and their white friend happens to walk in right at that moment and then getting mad that the PoC was calling them racist. You know what? Don’t take it f’ing personally. The world is complicated and people have complex feelings.
Tarawat
I understand where you’re coming from here, but it’s not as thought Joyce intended Becky to hear her. She deliberately took herself away from Becky (and Dorothy) and all her usual responsibilities to go and yell cathartic things.
What she said was ugly and a bit childish. But it’s the first chance she’s had to just scream it all out. I 100% read her ‘look at me’ comments as an attack on herself and her past beliefs. And yes maybe there’s some contempt for Becky in there too – because Joyce hasn’t had time to process how to fit her own loss of faith and Becky’s ongoing faith together in their friendship.
But I think her apologising that Becky heard without apologising for what she said is fair enough, actually.
Thulcandran
@Michael L
With all due respect, I think it’s deeply inappropriate to compare a conversation between young atheists about Christians being stupid and gullible to a conversation between people of color about whiteness and white behavior being a problem.
I’m also not convinced that Joyce was talking about only herself. That’s been asserted in the comments, but what she was mocking was belief in “a sky wizard” and, more specifically, that idea “loves me.” That’s what she was mocking.
I’m not Christian, but I absolutely did have friends who were 100% cool talking about how Christianity was stupid and Paganism was superior in every way back when I was.And it is personal, and it is hurtful. And, again, Joyce is the one saying Becky should change her beliefs, not the other way around.
Thulcandran
Oh what the hell, is the reply function ever going to work for me?
oz
I agree with Cerusee, but the thing is, Joyce is also upset that Becky doens’t believe what she believes. For this conflict to be resolved they will both have to accept that they believe different things, and that they will continue to believe different things, and that they always believed different things, and neither of them is willing to see that right now. So they can’t get to that step where Joyce says “no, you’re not an idiot, I was” because she doesn’t see her ideas as different from Becky’s… and Becky also can’t say “ok, you did believe all this stupid bs that I thought was uninportant” because she just can’t conceive of that
geno
Literally as Becky said Joyce was not sorry about what she said just that she got caught. It’s pretty deceptive to say she doesn’t want an apology when Joyce didn’t really give a true one. You can’t actually apologize if you don’t mean it
Rocketboy1313
It is not like Joe is a bull-shitter.
silas
Just noticed Joyce’s wearing wellies!
Segnosaur
Weren’t those the boots that Jennifer (Billie) bought her in the mall?
Needfuldoer
She’s been wearing those Ugg boots a lot.
Thag Simmons
Hey Liz, what the fuck?
Riley
I mean, she didn’t know Joyce was hiding out from Dorothy and Becky. Posting where she was going was a fairly innocuous thing to do, even if naming it the way she did was a little odd
Robert Thompson
I’m also thinking WFT Liz? Because after her sanctimonious rant about not caring about burning bridges over her atheism, she’s still posting to FB as if she’s a believer (unless it’s just sarcasm so dry it could serve in place of desiccant packets.
King Daniel
When we first met her, she said she was still posing as a believer on Facebook to please her stepmom.
Thulcandran
She’s probably a lot more dependent on her stepmom’s goodwill than Joyce is on Becky, to be fair.