Not until
Posted on October 13, 2025 by David M Willis


Tags: dorothy, hank, jocelyne, joyce

272 thoughts on “Not until”

  1. NGPZ

    :(

    *plays “Last Train Home” by Pat Metheny on passing car radio*

    1. NGPZ

      … y’all here might want to read the alt-text…

      1. Clif

        Already did. Came here to say ouch.

    2. Kazuma Shouri

      I wasn’t ready for the “all my friends died” vibes to hit again. DavidPro really made the right chance of what to license for that season of JoJo

  2. Animedingo

    *air horns*

  3. Serendipity

    eeeeeeeee we’re here! This is your stage, Jocelyne, take it away!

    1. Serendipity

      Oh. Fuck, the alt text. I’m so sorry, Mr. Willis.

  4. Benjamin Geiger

    That’s up there with Uhura’s “sorry, neither!”

    1. StClair

      I was so thinking of that. Fantastic ad lib by Nichelle.

    2. AbacusWizard

      Exactly what I was reminded of!

    3. Deathstalker

      Exactly what I thought of!

    4. Vulcanodon

      Yep! a classic scene

  5. Sirksome

    Don’t trust good boys…..when they’re not even boys. Wake up, Hank!

    1. TheCruisiest

      To the tune of a 5sos song

      ?Good boys are bad girls that haven’t been caught?

  6. Erica

    Appreciate the sentiment but you might be there a while, Jocelyn

    1. Arianod

      Yeah.

  7. Fart Captor

    One coming out and several long discussions about international politics later, Hank calls Jocelyne his “good girl”, she reflexively barks in response, and THAT is when she ends up going no-contact and goes to live in the ocean forever

    1. RASSILONTDAVROS

      You.

      I don’t like you.

    2. Taffy

      Holy moly, that’s good.

    3. Kazuma Shouri

      okay but if she’s spec’d into the kittygirl skill tree instead of the puppygirl skill tree, then she might have a chance on dodging this ending

  8. StClair

    she said, to his back.

    (did he hear?)

    1. Slartibeast Button, BIA

      I’d say not, he was too far to make it out unless she was yelling.

  9. Yumi

    Yeah, can’t really handle the phrase “good boy” these days.

  10. GreyICE

    What the fuck, alt text

    1. Shiro

      Willis’s dad passed away recently, I assume irl funeral is soon

      1. Staszu13

        It is a troubling coincidence

      2. Rose by Any other Name

        Condolences to Willis.
        My mother in law’s funeral was this past weekend, so I have at least some idea of what you’re going through right now.

    2. RASSILONTDAVROS

      This the fuck.

      1. DinaJoyce

        Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for your loss, Willis

  11. Opus the Poet

    Yes, slight shift in nouns and adjectives coming

    1. Nymph

      Pronouns and pronoun accessories.

      1. MK15

        *golf clap*

      2. Taffy

        That’s a clean reference, I tell ya hwat.

      3. Li

        My first thought was pronouns and pronoun byproducts but I also enjoy King of the Hill.

  12. Shiro

    Beaming hugs with my brain to Jocelyne :(((

  13. Dave Van Domelen

    “Sorry, neither.”

    1. Makkabee

      Classic reference.

      I’m told that was an ad lib.

  14. C.T Phipps

    I was really hoping the coming out would happen here.

    1. Fuzzy

      I was really hoping a little more of anything would happen, at least.

      1. Nymph

        Ah, I think this was an incredibly poignant and sweet moment tbh.

        1. Seralyna

          Yeah, this is a really compelling showcase of how she wants to assert her identity, but isn’t able to do it. I spent a lot of time in this exact situation before I came out, saying things under my breath, out of earshot.

  15. Tan

    No good boys here, only satisfactory small women.

  16. Icalasari

    Mister Brown, stop listening to news owned by right wing billionaires, please

    1. Kyulen

      Unfortunately that’s most of the news in the US.

      1. Wizard

        And yet I constantly hear about how the media is controlled by radical far left commie Nazis. The truth is today’s media landscape is more diverse than ever. The trick is to get people out of their respective echo chambers.

        1. thejeff

          No, the truth is that there’s been a successful right wing propaganda op to paint the media as controlled by the left. The GOP has been working the refs for decades and the mainstream media has been bending over backwards to try to minimize those complaints by leaning in their direction.

          There’s no left or even liberal mainstream media echo chamber. There are online social media leftist echo chambers, but that’s not quite the same thing.

        2. Freemage

          The most mainstream ‘lefty’ media I can think of is NPR, and even they generally are good about trying to cover the opposition view.

        3. Big Z

          By “variety of opinions based in a given political view that are technically available” it is very diverse.

          By “amount of money/eyeballs that hit the top twenty media sites (newspaper, TV, radio, podcast) in the US”, it is overwhelmingly right-wing to the point that it’s actively painful.

        4. zepangolynn

          It really is, because it directly affects our lives and safety.

  17. Qube

    morality is subjective and so, I’ve been informed, is gender

    (condolences, Mr. Willis)

  18. Packy

    At least they got pizza. ?

  19. Icalasari

    Wait, so if she’s not good, does that mean Jocelyne is Daddy’s Naughty Girl?

    the cursed thought reached me, now it must be shown to you all

    1. Embe13

      i’ve been there

    2. Clif

      We can hope.

  20. EtchJetty

    poor Joss. boymoding is like that

    1. FlamestAndLight

      I remember having the only significant car crash i’ve ever had thankfully. I don’t remember if I was out to my family at the time or not yet, but to me i was boymoding. And the driver of the other car (the one my car collided with) was initially mad, his family was in there, very understandable, but seeing me worrying about his family (they were okay), crying because of the stress he came over and sat with me and said “You’re just like my son, he’s also a good boy” and in my head i was like “I’m sure that is not true”. but it was comforting to hear.

      The cop that arrived on the scene bragged about never being in a car accident before. cops are cops are cops >.>

      1. Thing 2

        This is the one I live in dread of. Being stopped by the cops and not matching my drivers’ license, cos I’m a ‘both… and…’, but my drivers’ license is only in the one gender., which is sometimes not the one I am moding…

  21. RASSILONTDAVROS

    Ooohhh… good luck, Jocelyne. I really really hope this goes well for her… but I’m bracing myself all the same.

    But on the plus side, I guess this means Joss is in the cast full time now? Huzzah if true.

    1. RASSILONTDAVROS

      Upon making this comment the page reloaded with the Jocelyne banner for me, nicely apropos.

      1. Shiro

        Holy shit how long has it been rotating without me noticing

    2. Adeptus

      I was going to wonder about how she is going to make her living, but she’s a writer. I guess she’s doing the whole digital nomad thing.

    3. Astariel

      She was added to the cast page last time it got and overhaul (along with Alice and Tony).

  22. Ray Radlein

    Gonna go out on a limb and guess that the Alt-Text wasn’t written seventy months ago when this strip was added to the buffer

  23. Michelle J Caboose

    Everything about today’s strip, and especially the alt-text, has me crying.

    1. Michelle J Caboose

      …And I finally voted in the poll.

      More kissing. I’m tired of consequences. 🙁

      1. Risky

        Anyone voting consequences is a cop. cmm

        1. bubba0077

          What would cops know of consequences? They never face any.

      2. Odditude

        We had so few consequences haha

        But I get being in the mood for more kissing

        1. Nymph

          Consequences:

          – Walky, Joe, Becky, and Dina are sad.
          – Amber feels guilty.
          – Joyce got told off by Sarah.
          – Jocelyne almost had to come out to protect her sister (anxiety).
          – Joyce and Dorothy were forcibly outed to everyone who read a paper they can’t unpublish (sword of damocles).
          – Joyce outed herself to her Dad, and regardless of how he’s taking it right now, that’s scary.

          There have been plenty of consequences. None of them have been momentous screaming, shouting, throwing things, but parts of their lives are irrevocably altered and they have eyes on them most people don’t have to deal with when they find out they’re queer. They have sad, guilty, or angry friends.

          They’re 18/19 and they cheated on guys they’d been dating for less than a couple weeks. How many consequences did they need?

        2. thejeff

          Again, for many of us, it’s not that there weren’t consequences at all, but that the consequences were more directly tied to coming out/being outed than to the cheating. The only in that list that was directly about the cheating was Joyce being told off by Sarah and that’s undercut by Sarah being upset on behalf of Joe who’s sad about potentially losing Joyce, but is willing to give her a pass on the cheating.

          I at least don’t want worse consequences in general, I wanted a bit more acknowledgement that the cheating itself was a problem.

        3. Big Z

          thejeff speaks most of my mind, but I do also want to dig into that last paragraph, because for a lot of us it’s less “cheated on guys they’d been dating less than a couple of weeks” and more:

          1) Dorothy has been fucking with Walky’s heart with on-again/off-again “I love you” “we can’t” “let’s take a break and then I’m going to seduce you in the elevator within the day” etc etc etc shenanigans and really at some point Walky deserves some actual ability to respond to all of that in a way that’s not just being self-destructive or hooking up with someone on Garbage Roof.

          2) Joyce and Joe have been confidants and friends since well before the timeskip, to the point he’s screamed at her mom on her behalf and helped her sort childhood memories, and she went from “I want you to be my first time, and I want to help you be able to have a real relationship without being afraid of turning into your dad” to “actually, psych!, just cheated on you with my best friend after you gave me every opportunity to say that’s what I wanted and move on” — as I’m on team “the poly offer is Joe trying to claim scraps for himself and not something he’d wanted organically”, I think she did him dirty as hell.

          And so really this is not about “the actual dating”, this is about these two’s entire arc for months of story time and a decade of real time culminating in a dry fart’s worth of anyone in-strip even acknowledging that they were shitty in a way FAR beyond merely “cheating on a relatively young relationship”.

        4. thejeff

          On 1) I really would like to see Walky just be done with these two. Like, No, I’m not even gonna hassle Joyce anymore, I just don’t want to deal with either of you.

  24. IntangibleMatter

    Jocelyne you should’ve said it to him while he could still hear 🙁

    1. Nymph

      She’s not ready yet. That’s okay, she’ll tell him when she feels she can rather than rushing now.

  25. aSnowyEvening

    Oof, the alt text. I’m sorry, Willis.

  26. Toes14

    Are there ANY decent parents in this strip? (Besides maybe Dina’s & Dorothy’s?) I thought Hank was supposed to be reasonable. Then he basically insults one of his kids for their beliefs, just because it’s different than his own.

    Sure, he’s head & shoulder over most of the parents, but still.

    1. Sirksome

      He a 50-60+ year Christian conservative likely raised on Fox news. Not an excuse but it’s frankly a miracle he made it through the day without completely alienating his children.

      1. Proxiehunter

        I mean, my parents did a good job of completely alienating me other ways but the way Hank’s been acting since he showed up in this storyline would absolutely have completely alienated me.

    2. Lumino

      One day, people will give Hank the same grace they gave Joyce in the first five years of the strip.

      1. Prince Mech

        Yeah, Hank’s had his whole world crash down around him in recent months. I’m not condoning his behaviour in the last few steips but it’s been made very clear he’s desperately trying to cling to some sort of normalcy. Some feeling of being in control, of being able to fix things.

        This is all wrapped up in patriarchal and evangelical BS of course and odds are he’ll probably never completely detangle himself from all that, but I have a lot of empathy for what he must be going through here.

        “Joshua” was his good boy. Not “off the rails” like Jordan, not blatantly self serving in “his” faith like Peter. Hank could count on “him” to be safe, simple, unchanging, in this time where everything else is.

        Now he can’t. And that’s definitely on him, for buying into a lot of fundie bullshit that has alienated Jocelyn from him! But the man *is* struggling because of it.

        1. Prince Mech

          Toes14 also mentioned Hank insulting Jocelyn for “having beliefs different from his own” and I think that while that’s definitely how we all see it, from Hank’s perspective he’s trying to protect his child from getting involved with dangerous ideology that could get her hurt.

          And, while it’s the fault of the system and not Jocelyn, to some extent he’s right. It very nearly could have cost him both of his daughters if that sniper had been a little more trigger happy.

          Again, not condoning his behaviour, but looking at it from his point of view, from the point of view of a man who has already nearly lost one child this school year. I do get it.

        2. Bryy

          He’s actively not, though. At every step, he’s shown that he is not up for any kind of discussion at all. He doesn’t give a shit what they have to say, and their last line in this strip was Hank’s attempt to have the final word of authority.

        3. Prince Mech

          Of course he’s not up for discussion. Would any of us be up for discussion if our kids were at the Unite the Right rally, even if they were adults? I doubt it! That’s my entire point. He doesn’t see this as a “difference of opinion”. He sees this as his kids going off to university and getting involved in Dangerous Ideology, right in the middle of a divorce because his wife doesn’t give a fuck that their daughter was literally kidnapped.

          Again, I don’t agree with him, I don’t think he’s right. But I do
          *understand* him.

          (also, I accidentally hit report when trying to hit reply, very sorry!)

        4. Bryy

          “to some extent he’s right. It very nearly could have cost him both of his daughters if that sniper had been a little more trigger happy.”

          Also, this requires him to be worried about their safety, not the content.

        5. Prince Mech

          “To some extent” does not mean I am completely and totally agreeing with him. I literally immediately go on to say that it’s the system that is at fault, not Jocelyn.

          And if you don’t think he’s worried about his kids’ safety I genuinely don’t know what to tell you. That’s the main reason for his divorce with Carol. He mentions seeing the protest as Joshua falling in with a “terrorist crowd”. It’s a pretty obvious connection to make then, that he’s concerned about Joshua’s safety.

          I feel like I need to stress to you. I’m not talking about how things are. I am talking about how Hank sees them, what his motivations are for acting the way he is, and giving a slight concession that even if his reasons for doing so are wrong to use, morally, he was actually correct in suspecting that his kids could be in danger at that protest, because they explicitly were.

          To sum it up. Hank’s stupid, not heartless, as you seem to think he is.

        6. thejeff

          He has never given the slightest hint that he was concerned about either of them being in physical danger from police violence. He doesn’t seem to have even considered the possibility. He never asked if Jocelyne was okay, if she’d been hurt or anything like that.
          He’s been focused on her political stance, not her safety.

        7. Wizard

          One thing at a time. Hank can see that Joyce and Jocelyne are uninjured and not in any (immediate) physical danger so that’s not his first priority.

        8. thejeff

          @Wizard: When he first showed up it was in Joyce’s room to ask where Jocelyne was. There were a whole bunch of strips before he could see that she was uninjured and not in any (immediate) physical danger and he never once brought it up.
          He did, pretty quickly, bring up that he thought they’d raised her right and that she was “falling in with that terrorist crowd.”

        9. Rowan

          I’m not sure where you’re seeing himat every step showing he’s not up for discussion? What I’ve been seeing is all of them collectively avoiding talking about the issues as much as possible

        10. Prince Mech

          Oops called Joyce’s eldest brother Peter instead of Jonathan, they are very similar flavours of fundie asshole so I think I just merged them in my head lmao

        11. eh, whatever

          John. Not Jonathan either.

        12. John Campbell

          He’s apparently “Jonathan”, but shortens it to “John” rather than “Jon” for reasons I’m not clear on and personally find very annoying.

        13. Wizard

          Maybe he got tired of constantly correcting people’s spelling. There’s only a dozen letters in my first, middle and last name combined, but nobody can spell any of them. (First name uses an uncommon spelling, but middle and last are more common spellings.) My first and last name have been misspelled on my water bill for 20 years even though I carefully spelled both out when I signed up.

        14. Amara

          Jordan is the oldest and was seen in exactly one corner of a panel when Joycelyn was looking at a photo of them as kids, he doesn’t even have a full face yet. We don’t actually know what he does yet or why Joyce never sees him anymore, just that there was some schism between him and the family.

          John is the one with the free church mustang, for his missionary work, who got annoyed Becky and Joyce weren’t just keeping the status quo, when they came home after the first time Becky got kidnapped and her dad imprisoned. Nobody in the family has met his wife yet, iirc, since she’s super elusive or evasive or whatever. Or at least Joyce hasn’t.

        15. Laura

          His “wife”.

          Before that he had a “girlfriend who lived in Canada”.

        16. Laura

          (Just riffing on Willis’s assertion that everyone is queer…)
          😉

        17. Doopyboop

          John is the oldest, Jordan is the second youngest.

          https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/cameback/

        18. Li

          Yep, it goes John > Jocelyne > Jordan > Joyce in terms of ages.

      2. Throwatron

        It honestly seems like any concept of empathy for any of the cast went out the window like 6 months ago. I’ve never seen a slice-of-life comic with a fanbase that hates its entire cast so much.

        1. Prince Mech

          As someone who’s been reading for a long time, and read a lot of the comments during his initial catch-up read all those years ago. (before Becky was reintroduced, even, wow!)

          It’s literally always been this way, once upon a time the comments section hated Danny for not banging Billie that one time because he told Joe he felt like it didn’t seem super healthy for her (Which it wasn’t!)

          The nature of any story, let alone a really long running one about a lot of relatively realistically flawed people, is you’re going to see a lot of folks with some very interesting takes on it and its characters, especially when they’re very invested. I’ve seen it in a lot of other places than this!

        2. Freemage

          Eh, it’s not quite that simple. I think that it would be more accurate to say that most of the cast now has their own dedicated haters. What’s grown over the recent months is that whenever a hated character comes on-strip, the haters come out in droves. And this then gets amplified because most of the characters DO have genuine fans, as well, so we get angry back-and-forths between haters and fanfolk.

          (Note: I’m not claiming immunity to this; Booster, Raidah and Roz all get flack from me on the regular whenever they appear.)

          At this point, in order for Willis to avoid this, he’d need to do a few weeks of Dina, Asma and Charlie strips, because they seem to be the only universally un-hated characters that I can note. Alice largely gets a pass too, at this point, but I suspect that won’t last.

        3. Prince Mech

          I actually really don’t care for Charlie, I just don’t comment about it very much!

        4. Shiro

          Nah, after that strip earlier this week, we know some people definitely do dislike Dina. And Alice already has people ready to jump on her as soon as she does literally anything

        5. Kwyjibo

          > Dina, Asma and Charlie

          An absolute nightmare of a blunt rotation

        6. Taffy

          Dina’s funny when she’s drunk. I wonder how she’d be stoned, cuz it’s a little different. She seems like the type to ramble endlessly about common dinosaur misconceptions while inhaling a can of Pringles, forget what she was saying, and start over.

        7. C.T Phipps

          Everyone has their favorites and people they relate to over people they don’t. Thus it’s not a fandom that hats the cast so much as every fan has people they will irrationally defend and people they will irrationally hate no matter what they do. Because it’s irrational.

          For me, I will irrationally defend Becky and think she can do no wrong no matter what. I will side with Jocelyne over everything and even Joyce, wishing she played a bigger role in the comic. But my biggest blindspot? Jennifer. Jennifer is an incredible hot mess but I love her no matter what dumb thing she does.

          By contrast, Dorothy and Ruth are characters that I constantly feel like I should assume the worst of. Dorothy because she reminds me of how I used to be and that irritates me. Ruth because of my irrational Jennifer love and my own families issues of alcoholism and abuse of them during it by partners that I’ve mentally categorized as the villain regardless of how fair that is. Just do not like or want anywhere near my Special Cheerleader Who Fixes ProblemsTM.

          I could do more: Joedad? Dude was a scumbag to his wife but I want to think the best of him. Raidah? Will always think she’s a better character than she’d think of me in RL, probably. Asher? Love him. Mary? Okay hating her and wanting a house to fall on her is normal. And so on.

          It’s just part of fandom.

        8. Thing 2

          While I am often amazed at what is said in the comments section, I think it is important to remember that:
          a) it is not the whole fan base that comments and therefore there is no info here about what most of the fan base thinks. (A lot of people just read the comic!)
          b) even those that do comment do not necessarily comment on what they think of the characters, instead they may comment on: the story; or thoughts that it initiates in their heads; or the art; or questions they have; or they are just playful or funny comments
          c) even if they do say what they think of characters, they don’t necessarily hate them, and they don’t hate them all.
          To be honest, I’m more puzzled by the people who tell us what the characters are thinking and feeling. I mean, OK, it is their ‘take’ or opinion, but is often not expressed as such. Amazing confidence to think they know. I bet even Willis doesn’t always know. Characters can be like that!

        9. Adam Black

          No ones gotten more hate than Becky for coming out loudly and proudly,
          And Carla for teasing Mary,

          Willis had to close the comments for 2 days because the hate for Carla was excessive for just existing.

          And while both characters can be obnoxious, both times were marked by lgbtq hatred for just being mildly uppity .

          Now it seems strange, because Carla is one of the funnest most likable characters , who could sustain her own comic, and her being Trans is such a background nonssue. Both are pretty good representation .

          I think Willis got bored of his own stories that he set up over years ended them prematurely, and narratively undermined Joyce x Dorothy.
          There’s really something beautiful here and he undermined both stories at the same time.

          But for people who may not appreciate sapphic love as it’s own thing, Willis let the air out of the balloon. If you give people a small reason to dislike a marginalized group they run with it, and are unable to see the inherent bigotry that’s from lack of love , not outright hatred.

          ( I don’t blame any of the characters because these were authorial choices. ) .

          Its just a comic after all. I’ve given up the idea that Willis can set up a good love story have good follow through. And be good lgbtq representation.

          He’s not going to do it. It will be 1or 2 out of 3. ( Since he made Danny x Ethan crush the masthead and refused to finish it )
          That kind of sucks because I know he can do it. He’s going to write good representation OR he’s going to create a romance. With no setup. Or he’s going do great setup with no climax. I think Willis is great at normalizing LGBTQ characters and didn’t mind transgressing readers expectations to do it.
          But there’s a point where transgressing readers expectations is queerbaiting or ship teasing for the sake of transgressing. Im just a damn fool for getting sucked into believing Joe x Joyce would have a satisfying ending with sex and emotional intimacy and Joyce breaking through barriers or Joe really falling deeply in love.

          But the world really sucks and fan service would have been great

          . I don’t expect Joyce Dorothy to go well either. Id bet something fd up is about to go down plotwise. Maybe some characters die from right wing terrorism.

        10. C.T Phipps

          While not discounting her transness as an issue, Carla being obnoxious and disturbing other dormmates as well as going our way to be obnoxious and disturb her dormmates is likable?

          I like Carla fine but she wanted to be obnoxious to people and a lot of people found that off-putting.

        11. Adam Black

          Yes people found it off-putting. But so what? It was specifically to a villain of the story, it was a mild inconvenience and people took the side of the villain who misgendered Carla so bad Willis had to close. Comments for the time.

          It wasn’t even the top 50 most obnoxious thing Carla did or said. It was obviously meant to be read as Looney Tunes roadrunner trope, not to be taken seriously.

          And it wasn’t even the worst thing that[ anyone did to Mary.
          Which was probably the slap.

          There’s no way in good faith to read the commenters other than raging transphobes looking for a merest pretense too hate.

          Carla got more criticism than Mike ever got. For punching people in the face. Or any of his shitty nonsense.

          Or Ruth for abusing Billy.

      3. Shiro

        A lot of us have parents or grandparents or other family members that are a lot like Hank, and are feeling this one keenly right now.

      4. Dawn

        I think one of the reasons I give Hank so much grace is that I’ve met so many boomer dads who are the most stubbornly bigoted awful people. And a lot of them are the dads of my queer friends. And I *wish* their dads were like Hank instead. He’s a guy with a lot of awful beliefs…but who is willing to change and grow. It takes time. He’s not gonna magically be accepting of everything, as great as that would be.

      5. Proxiehunter

        The strip is about Joyce growing and changing. We’ve got no reason to expect the same from Hank.

        1. Adam Black

          He has tho. Even more than Joyce.

          I think the Alttext explains the reason. Joyce parents are autobiographical and Willis has written good things about his dad post fundie.

      6. Falcon

        Hank is doing wonderfully as a father in the face of a lifetime of indoctrination. There is no character in DoA over the age of 30 who has come further from where they started. Hank’s haters predictably only ever come out when he mentions this fictional world’s equivalent of Palestine and Israel. Never mind that it’s one of a million things the US has a hand in overseas both wonderful and terrible. Never mind the thousands dying in the war in Ukraine. Never mind the billions we’ve cost ourselves through starting a world wide trade war and the incoming recession. Never mind universal healthcare or abortion rights or the backsliding of LGBTQ protections. Never mind a guy trying to do his best by his kids while his world collapses around him and the only thing he’s ever done about his child’s (correct) political views is calmly express his disapproval.

        What’s going on in that one part of the world is shitty and terrible and horrifying. Thousands of innocents are being bombed and massacred and raped. The US should be doing more. Its electorate should be pressuring its elected officials. But I swear any time anybody breathes wrong on this topic, a bunch of folks forget that there’s anything else going on in the world.

    3. Xujhan

      People in this comment section regularly insult others for having beliefs different from their own. Glass houses, innit?

      1. Nymph

        Not sure that’s what “glass houses” means. Person A saying it’s shitty to insult people because of their beliefs is not hypocritical (the meaning of the phrase) just because Persons B, C, & D insult people for having different beliefs.

        There’s this weird tendency in comment sections to claim hypocrisy because Group A complained about the sky being blue and then Group B complained when the sky was no longer blue. That’s just different people thinking and feeling different stuff.

        1. thejeff

          While that’s true, I find this “insult others for having beliefs different from their own” rhetoric to be very right-wing coded framing that I’m surprised to see here, at least from anything other than an obvious troll.

        2. Laura

          …I get that everyone is on edge these days and prone to see monsters everywhere because of the very real monsters that could raid our homes at any moment these days, and the very real threat of both state and vigilante violence pervading the real world today.

          …I just wonder whether it would be possible to protect online spaces as spaces of primarily kindness and gentleness toward each other, rather than assuming the worst of each other?

          I mean, I do get that online spaces are no “safer” than “IRL” spaces, these days. It would just be nice if this one were. Sharing alternative perspectives is one thing. Excoriating each other is another thing. Here does not seem to be exempt from pile-ons. I’ve participated in them myself and regretted it later. It just seems like a lot of people in a lot of pain, sometimes acting out that pain against each other.

          *Extends a hand of caring*

        3. Nymph

          Pointing out a dogwhistle (and it is absolutely a dogwhistle) is hardly “excoriating” anyone.

          It’s actually fine to worry who you’re communicating with and protecting yourself if you worry you’ve been talking to someone not discussing in good faith.

        4. Laura

          I am very sorry for my error. Thank you for your patience. I apologize for causing offense.

        5. thejeff

          It is absolutely not possible to “protect online spaces as spaces of primarily kindness and gentleness toward each other” because trolls absolutely thrive on that. That sucks, but it’s reality. Even more so in a space with a lot of queer and trans representation.

          That said, it’s very hard for me to see what I said as “excoriating” or part of a pile-on. I saw what seemed to be using dog whistle language, but at least in the OP’s comment didn’t really seem to be using it in the normal dog whistle fashion, so I commented. It’s possible it’s just something they absorbed online, without realizing how it was often used. That happens.

          I do generally agree that especially when we’re really just arguing over the characters here, I’d prefer to lower the heat, but I think this was a weird place to start. Of course, I would think that, it’s my post. 🙂

        6. Laura

          Thank you for correcting me, and I do apologize if I made you feel singled out. That was not my intention. I say the wrong thing often: I am trying to be more careful of what I write but sometimes I still get it wrong. I appreciate you for understanding and I am sorry for starting in a weird place.

        7. thejeff

          It’s cool.

        8. Laura

          Ok, my mistake. I apologize. I am sorry to offend.
          Thank you for your patience with me

    4. Kyulen

      Hank has actually been a lot more reasonable than many fundie Christian parents with more conservative political views are in real life. He still has a lot to learn, but he’s reacted pretty well considering.

      1. C.T Phipps

        It’s deeply confusing to have Hank automatically accept and love Dorothy and Joyce while talking about the situation in Bulmeria. Which, again, hits harder than it was probably meant to as it was pitched as a fictional country that everyone is treating as RL.

        Which is honestly how it should be in-universe probably but was not out of universe.

        At least my .02.

        1. The Queer Agenda [frog memes]

          I thought Hank acted more passive agressive than accepting, but at least he sorta agreed to disagree about everything and didn’t try to punish the kids. It’s a truce, they might be able to work with this. Or, maybe he’ll be like my mom and just get over it, now that the kids have gone and done the thing(s).

        2. Rowan

          Having already accepted Becky as part of the family, and going as far as to give up his church and wife because of how shitty they were to Becky, it makes sense that he doesn’t feel able to criticise Joyce and Dorothy, even if he isn’t comfortable with it.

          He doesn’t have the same history around the Bulmeria issue

        3. Amara

          He wants his kids to be safe. He may not get the gay thing, but he loves them anyways and he’s trying to be understanding.

          Bulmeria? It’s weird, why are his kids siding with the terrorists? In the civil war bulmeria is experiencing, why are they supporting the wrong side? But it’s just foreign politics to him. He’ll have opinions on it but ultimately it takes a far far back seat in comparison.

        4. C.T Phipps

          He probably has a bunch of better talking points than Mary, who is far more naked in her racism.

          “Didn’t the Bulmerian insurgents attack first? Aren’t they blah blah blah….”

          And whatever they’re saying this week.

        5. Opinion

          You are looking at this as if he had information. Fundie Christian he has lived in a very walled media bubble. All of the information he has been given is how the protesters are violent and in the wrong.. he has formed a conclusion based on the information he has. He should have gone looking for more information from different sources buts its not hard to see how he got to the conclusion he got to with the info he had

    5. Spacie

      I remember Sierras dad tried to stop Blaine on parents day. Mike’s parents were nice.

    6. Astariel

      In addition to Dina and Dorothy’s parents, Amber’s mom clearly cares and tries, even if she’s not perfect. Mike’s parents were good people. Carla’s are incredibly supportive of her.

  27. The Lurker

    Willis, sorry for your loss….

  28. Someone

    Man. 15 years of freshman year. Poor kids.

    Get him, jocelyne. Might as rip all the bandaids off.

    Good luck with the tie tying – – I mean, condolences willis.

  29. Chris Phoenix

    What sane parent says “I thought you were good” to a child who’s determinedly doing what they think is right? I mean, she’s not a child except in the sense that she’s his offspring, which means he can still hurt her.

    Walking away with “I thought you were good” as your exit line means “I’m so disappointed in your flawed character that I don’t see any reason to keep talking to you. And I’ll pretend this attitude of mine is new and I liked you till now based on your behavior. But really I’m a manipulative SOB who’s trying to make you feel terrible about yourself because there’s a little insane voice in my head telling me that this is the right thing to say to my own child.”

    I mean, as a parent, I can’t even. What kind of messed up thinking could even lead to this?

    1. NGPZ

      the kind of messed up thinking which is a result of spending the majority of your life in an authoritarian, religious separatist group

      like I said before Hank could really use some exit counseling or something, for reals

    2. Derek

      this is a rather uncharitable read about Hank, he’s not the bad manipulative parent (Carol is); so unless he had a huge bad change in personality and personal morals since we last saw him, I’ll go ahead and say that’s NOT what he means by “I thought you were my good boy”

      1. Bryy

        This entire arc – heck, this very STRIP – he’s been telling Jocelyne in one way or another that he doesn’t give a shit about her reasons.

      2. Proxiehunter

        He’s not the worst bad manipulative parent. He’s been pretty damn bad and manipulative this whole storyline. Better than his ex is not a high enough bar to clear.

    3. Embe13

      if that was the interpretation willis intended, hank would not have been offering the ride home. and as ngpz said he is leaving a world he has spent decades being brainwashed in.

      it is still a shitty thing to say, but not necessary that it means he views jocylin as “bad” just no longer “good”, which is to say i think he veiwed jocylin as “following in his footsteps” but now seeing her having politics having turned left, he is disapointed, but not hateful

      1. Proxiehunter

        There isn’t a difference between “no longer good” and “bad”.

        1. Thing 2

          Well, in my opinion there is! What about neutral? what about sometimes bad sometimes good? Both of these words actually just meaning ‘not in agreement with me’. After all, even in people who have religions that have ‘bad’ and ‘good’ as abstract concepts, there are big differences in agreement as to how you achieve either of them.
          Then there are people for whom there is no abstract concept of ‘bad’ or ‘good’…

        2. Big Z

          I think there is, ESPECIALLY in a Christian context — in my own cultural experience (rural Appalachian Catholic, Eastern European-type) there’s actually a pretty wide gulf between “you’re not being good” and “you are bad”.

          The former of which is in that realm of “love the sinner, hate the sin” that feels like shit to be on the receiving end of but for a fair many people who DON’T make the news, they actually mean it as stated — “I still love you, even if I think you’re wrong in a way I would like to help you correct”.

          This is completely aside from the semantic difference between “no longer good” and “I thought you were my good boy” — the “my” in there as other folks have said in this thread seems to imply to ME something more about those weird wistful feelings you get as a parent when you realize your kid has grown into someone you don’t quite understand anymore. Especially with the offer of the ride home after a lunch discussion civil enough that no one stormed out (Hank is even carrying leftovers!) and no one is visibly upset (there are definitely some PENSIVE expressions, but no tears or anger), there’s room for an interpretation much closer to “I thought you were my good boy” … “but now I see that you’ve grown into someone who doesn’t match my mental model, and I need to figure that out.”

          There’s a counterpoint here in that NONE of them seem to think to say or even wave “goodbye”, which also might indicate either “parsimony of art” or “the discussion was fraught enough that they’re parting on worse terms than the calmness of the situation would indicate”.

    4. thejeff

      As Embe13 said, he’s still offering the ride home, so it’s not he’s leaving because there’s no reason to talk to her further. It’s kind of a shitty thing to say, but he is disappointed in her. From his point of view, she’s siding with the terrorists. If he was right about the politics of it, that would be a pretty awful thing to do.

    5. MK15

      The “my good boy” (or “my good girl”) is a particular phrase that implies either obedience or “apple not falling far from the tree.” Him saying she’s not his “good boy” doesn’t necessarily mean she’s not “good;” though it is judgy.

  30. Morrison

    Looks like Jocelyn is here to stay. Bad Girls Do It Well

  31. Quinn

    Huh. Must have been a quiet lunch.

    1. thejeff

      Yeah, I’m kind of surprised and a bit disappointed we didn’t see more of the discussion. I guess partly more about about Joyce coming out would be kind of a rehash and more about the politics would mean actually nailing down details of what’s going in Bulmeria, so I can see avoiding that.

      1. Big Z

        That’s where I landed, but unfortunately it (along with the possible inserted scenes post-protest-protest in the comments) serves to magnify the genuinely weird-ass pacing this entire storyline has seemed to have relative to previous ones.

        1. MK15

          Yeah, I’m with you guys. I can get the “why” of skipping the details, but also the way this has all played out is missing any real satisfaction or payoff from the storyline. Joyrothy isn’t a payoff itself, and there’s still a lot of downstream consequences shaking out.

          At the same time soooo many commentators around here hate this storyline on levels I don’t agree with, so I feel I have to be clear that I’m not one of them

        2. Big Z

          I do joke about being a “hater” but I think that’s somewhat different from “hating the storyline” — but yeah, the biggest part of the pacing issues for me is that I find Doyce meh at best so every time the camera lingers on “them” as opposed to “the situation” it drags the pacing even further out of whack.

          All the more so since this strip kinda leaves one with the implication that not only did we SKIP a lot of Hank+kids dialogue and development, we are not going to get any more for a bit.

      2. Freemage

        I get the impression that it WAS a quiet lunch. Jocelyn already expressly stated a lack of desire to discuss politics–which, to be clear, is something I feel is kind of a shame.
        It’s one thing to not want to come out–that’s a personal decision. But without conversation, even uncomfortable conversation, about larger political issues, there can’t be any change in anyone’s position. Instead of making the crack about the pro-apartheid magazines, Jocelyn ~should~ have said, “Sure, we can talk about this. But it’s going to be a two-way conversation, you have to hear me out, too. I’m your kid, but I’m also an adult, and I have my own views on things–and many of those views are based on the best values I learned from you growing up. I’d love it if you understood where I’m coming from, even if you don’t end up agreeing.”
        This would’ve put the onus directly on Hank–he can accept Jocelyn speaking as an adult, or he can decline to have a peer-to-peer conversation, but right now, he’s probably just frustrated at how his ‘son’ has been brainwashed to the point of not even willing to talk about the issue.

        Of course, as others noted, showing such a conversation would’ve also required Willis to either:
        A: Present a one-sided, ahistorical version of the actual conflict, which fails to acknowledge any of the messy real-world issues that keep Gaza from being as easily soluble as any of us would like, resulting in folks pointing out the discrepancies for the entire arc, or;
        B: Present a thoughtful, detailed analysis of “Bulmeria” that maps to the actual situation in a near-perfect simulation (preferred, but also fully capable of leaving DoA Trapped in the Bathtub* for the next five years), or;
        C: Create an artificial description that removes Bulmeria from the real world entirely, but ALSO contains a lot of nuance and realpolitick considerations that show why it’s also a difficult scenario with simple solutions not really working–which would be similar in problems to B, but with ten times the work for Willis.

        *:Trapped in the Bathtub was a term invented by the old webcomic review site, Websnark, to describe what happened to a very promising webcomic called I Hate It Here, in which a storyline that had been chugging along just fine wound up with the two leads in a bathtub, talking, and the scene in question taking literal months to get through a flashback sequence, killing both the audience’s and the author’s passion for the strip.

        (Note: Websnark is only available on Wayback now, and I Hate It Here isn’t even on there from what I can tell, so yeah, I can’t really expect anyone to get that reference without footnotes.)

    2. Seralyna

      My personal guess is that it was pretty hard to write an extended version of that scene that didn’t involve us wallowing in Jocyelyne being deadnamed and misgendered constantly, and that stretching that out over like 3-4 days would have been kind of a bummer.

      1. Big Z

        Kinda opposite feeling going to the same conclusion — if I were writing a story like this, I’d’ve chosen this moment to rip off the Jocelyne band-aid with Hank and have it resolved one way or another. (frankly, I think we could have realistically ended on a note of Hank being unsure about trans-ness but willing to accept it while still being very “hard no” on “supporting terrorists” based solely on examples of “fundamentally-good-people-lodged-in-right-wing-cultural-bubbles” in my own experience, which unfortunately I have a lot of being an Appalachia native)

        1. Big Z

          I realized I never expressly agreed with you AFTER I submitted, so here’s my other paragraph:

          Nonetheless, if there wasn’t going to be a relatively quick resolution of Hank’s feelings on Jocelyne’s transition, I 100% agree that belaboring a discussion with a lot of deadnaming/misgendering would have been awful.

  32. Bryy

    I was literally about to come here to post about how I will never have the patience that trans folks have when facing a situation where they are not out and constantly being deadnamed by a parent.

    So, I take it from the alt-text, Hank is NEVER finding out.

    1. The Queer Agenda [frog memes]

      Alt text is about a funeral IRL. Willis’ dad recently passed, posts about it on bsky.

    2. Ornathe

      I’m pretty sure the alt-text has more to do with Willis’ own recently deceased father than killing off Hank…

      That said, in my experience, the patience is easier when you know it’s because you haven’t come out to them yet than when you come out and they still use the wrong one. It’s still not great, obviously, but it’s not like you can really blame someone for not using a name you haven’t told them you use in the first place.

      Jocelyne seems to me like she’s hoping he’ll come around enough that she can actually come out to him without it throwing a live grenade into the family dynamic, and for now has resigned herself to him needing more time to adjust before she can comfortably do so. Still, he did offer to drive her home, regardless of how he feels about her politics, and he did accept that Joyce having a girlfriend was a surprise but not a dealbreaker for hanging out with them all and getting pizza, so if anything, I’d say Hank finding out next time he shows up in the comic is fairly likely.

      1. RocketRelm

        Being blunt, I’ve got the feeling that Hank is much more okay with the socially progressive half of left than the other issues, and while will be surprised at the LGBT, I get the impression he’ll come around to that easier than the Israel type stuff.

        Which is probably for the best, the socially progressive stuff is almost universally right spare the REALLY weird (or psy op) stuff, whereas the other type of far left deals get into weirdos a lot sooner and faster.

      2. NGPZ

        “I’m pretty sure the alt-text has more to do with Willis’ own recently deceased father than killing off Hank…”

        the two are not mutually exclusive tho, and I have no doubt Willis will once more pour his heart into the pages on what it feels like to have somebody die before they can redeem themselves, just as he did when his mom passed away

  33. DiDi

    OK but see, now I’m wondering about the other sons.

    I know at least *one* of them has all but cut the entire family off.

    How many siblings does Joyce have again?

    1. Alongcameaspider

      She has 3

      Jocelyne: who we know

      Jordan: who we dont

      Johnathan: who seems to take more after Carol

      1. Freemage

        Still kind of interesting that Johnathan, doing missionary work and getting financial support from his congregation, doesn’t qualify as ‘THE good son’.

  34. Bittersweet

    Wait what did John do to Hank

    Like we know why John is bad but what did he do to cross Hank

    1. Shiro

      I’m wondering if Carol got to him first and he had some choice words to say to his dad about abandoning their church and his wife or some shit like that

      1. Bryy

        John most likely “disowned” him when the divorce happened.

    2. thejeff

      We’ve known from Jocelyne’s first appearance that she was their favorite, because they know the least about her.

      I suspect that Hank at least isn’t entirely comfortable with what Jocelyne pointed out when we last saw John: his material profit from the ministry work.

  35. biomanzilla

    If Jocelyne is serious then that just means she’s going to have get an apartment in Bloomington since we’ve seen that student protests are completely ineffective at getting universities to divest from Israel Bulmeria.

    1. Embe13

      she is staying with like minded friends, as long as she is protesting with them they are probably goiong to let her mostly freeload, far more likely she has to find a parttime job

    2. thejeff

      In real life, the protests at IU continued for at least several months after the breakup of the first encampment, so if this follows that, she’ll have an excuse to hang around for as long as the comic is likely to last.

      1. Embe13

        itsa trap by her friends to fortveger to reenroll, and go for a masters degree

        1. biomanzilla

          Ah, grad school, the former gifted child’s last desperate shot at avoiding adulthood.

  36. DJTsurugi

    same Joss, same. ~<3

  37. Jerach

    I do think Hank could get to a good point eventually, I dunno if we’re gonna see it within the time frame of the comic.

    1. Lightweight Baybee

      i think he’s the average boomer dad
      or maybe better than that

      i don’t really see him accepting jocelyn in the long run but i also don’t think he’d be purposefully abusive about it or anything

      his ex wife on the other hand
      oml i hope she never becomes plot relevant again

      1. Bryy

        I think Carol is going to die, actually.

        1. Kevin K

          I mean eventually

  38. Lightweight Baybee

    honestly went better than i expected
    maybe i’m just desensitized from toe dad’s horrific outbursts
    but hey at least hank isn’t exploding?
    although he isn’t accepting/ doesn’t really know about jocelyn’s transition

  39. biomanzilla

    That’s another problem I have with the Bulmeria subplot. There’s only one non-America country in the world that Evangelicals think is literally blessed by God to the point where everyone in the world is required to support them no matter what, and has to accept them settling land that belongs to other people because God supposedly gave it to them 3000 years ago. If that country was brought up in the comic by name, there’d be a much more personal reason why Hank is so upset by Jocelyne joining the protests instead of a vague “Fox News told me they were terrorists”. It would better explain why such a principled man would break with his child over this.

    1. Prince Mech

      I don’t think he’s breaking with Jocelyn here. If he was breaking off ties he wouldn’t be offering her a ride home. From Hank’s perspective, they’re fighting, but still family.

      (Can’t hit the reply button for the life of me today, accidentally hit report. Apologies!)

      1. Jon

        “Break with” and “break off ties with” are two different idioms. The latter is much more intense than the former.

        “Breaking with” someone simply means that you’re no longer united in your opinions. Which is true here. Hank thought he could rely on Jocelyne to agree with him on this, and he’s learned (secondhand) that she doesn’t.

        1. Prince Mech

          Oh neat! Learn something new every day.

        2. Thing 2

          I’m not from the USA, but to me a) ‘break with’ and b) ‘break off with’ refer to taking a temporary or permanent break from one’s relationship with a) a friend or relative or colleague and b) a romantic/sexual relationship. The internet seems to concur. I’m not, personally, getting any sense of “no longer united in your opinions” from break with.

    2. Cameron Stone

      Yes this to me show Willis doesn’t really get why the whole protest subplot is such a problem. You see they want to correct it by having more involvement from the (still very few and underdeveloped) Muslim characters, but there isn’t really any reason for them to to be involved more than anyone else because “Bulmeria” needs to remain as abstract as possible to be used as the stand-in to not date the comic. Even more, it’s still pretty clear this plotline is built around the two white characters so it would probably serve them better to just get it over with as soon as possible.

      1. C.T Phipps

        Very good summation.

        “This is a plot about two white girls and their queer awakening. Bulmeria is never going to be the main part of the plot and twisting around it does not change this.”

    3. Acher4

      I’m so surprised that people can’t wrap their heads around the idea that a fantasy land created for a story can be just a wide range representation.
      Afghanistan, Yemen, Philippines, Kurdistan, Korea, Israil, Palestine, Iraq, Iran…
      This has happened to numerous films, TV series, comics before.

      Damn, USA has been so long in so many wars, that you all act that “this” time it’s more important to call it out or something.

      University protests have been held for decades… even centuries.

      Let’s stop acting like putting a protest in a College comic, mainly focusing on young people’s lives, should suddenly only talk about the current genocide etc.
      That would be well… kind of stupid.

      1. Cameron Stone

        People have a problem with it because it’s very specifically based on the University of Indiana Gaza protest, like the name changed but everything else from the rhetoric to the event itself are transparently the same that it’s like saying the various political jabs with Robin are just toward politicians in general and not specifically Sarah Palin and Trump. I mean this is what got Willis in hot water with the kiss, because they wrote this while plotline around a protest over the genocide of a mostly Muslim people that was ultimately in-service of the 2 white leads in a comic with very little Muslim representation, something Willis acknowledged they fucked up on. It isn’t that you can’t do it, but when you invoke a real world genocide you have to be careful about how you handle it and Willis handled it poorly, to the point where most people wish they would just drop it and move on.

        1. Acher4

          But it isn’t actually invoking a current real world genocide. (20 years ago people would say it is about Afghanistan)

          Willis did not actually handle the storyline poorly.

          People just want the current genocide with Israel to take center stage in the story… <.<
          in a College comic that has been for 15 years now mainly focusing on young people’s lives…and not war/political upheaval in the world.

    4. Kyulen

      It kinda surprises me how many other commenters don’t want to accept what country “Bulmeria” must be in this particular storyline. In the context of Hank’s fundie Christian beliefs, and the protests that happened last year at Indiana University in Bloomington that the protests in this storyline are clearly based on, there’s only one country it could be, and that’s Israel.

      1. eh, whatever

        50 years ago it would clearly have been South Vietnam, no contest.

        1. Dot

          Or South Africa.

        2. thejeff

          Sure, in a different time, Willis would have echoed a different protest, but the rhetoric around this protest doesn’t match either of those. Vietnam would have been about our actual troops, not divestment. South Africa was about divestment, but not really about terrorists or genocide.

        3. thejeff

          Also, the “right to exist” line came up too, I believe. That’s pure Israeli.

        4. biomanzilla

          No, 50 years ago it still would’ve been Israel. America has allied with evil governments before, but those alliances were transactional and based on stopping communism. With Israel, the tail is wagging the dog. Evangelical support for them is a direct result of their religious beliefs, with no material or even ideological reasons being necessary. It’s why Zionism is still so dominant in the US even when America abandoned all its other Cold War allies after their common enemy disappeared. Hank would see opposing Israel as a direct attack on his faith, whereas if Jocelyne told him she was protesting India’s occupation of Kashmir, his only response would be “Where the hell is that?”

        5. thejeff

          50 years is a long time. Evangelicals (or at least the modern flavor) were nowhere near so influential in US politics. In 1975, after the Yom Kippur, which was actually a war that posed a real threat to Israel, not a one-sided genocidal campaign, the US had halted military aid along with a push for formal Israel/Egyptian peace. Palestinians were an issue, but less so than open war between nations was.

      2. Thing 2

        It is not a matter of accepting or not accepting that this is any particular conflict.
        If it was a particular conflict, why not name it?
        Since it is not named, it can be any conflict of this type, real or imaginary, that has or might be engaged in.
        Assuming it is the one in the news now suggests either not being very old or not having much sense of history!

        1. thejeff

          If the protests (at least up until AG’s involvement) weren’t such a close parallel of the Gaza protests at IU last summer that would be more plausible.

        2. C.T Phipps

          Yeah, it’s why I said Willis should make it more distinctly fictional.

          Which got the reaction of, “That is a terrible idea!”

        3. Freemage

          Flipside: If it can ‘be any conflict of this type’, then it’s perfectly plausible that Jocelyn has the wrong end of the stick, and that cutting off support for Bulmeria will result in a much worse genocide, not only of Bulmeria, but also a few smaller fictional nations that are dependent upon Bulmerian support to not be overrun, themselves.

        4. thejeff

          I’ve seen right-wingers (and even some on the far left) talk about Ukrainian genocide in the Donbas leading to the Russian invasion. It’s pretty obvious nonsense, but the mere presence of claims of genocide (or claims of the evil American military/industrial complex) aren’t actually conclusive.

      3. NGPZ

        good LORD the denial is just fucking dumbfounding X-X

        speaking as someone who’s personally affected by the issue, I am OFFENDED even

        you whitebred folk must feel pretty good in your little bubble where you can completely ignore what’s happening, and not have to worry about your cousins maybe being killed or inducted into a cult where members make tic toks of their war crimes huh? (-_-)

    5. The Queer Agenda [frog memes]

      The more things change, the more things stay the same: conservatives have acted like this about many Bulmerias, since long before Faux News.

      Most post-WWII foreign wars ‘Murica has instigated or tried to meddle with have involved supporting factions that attempted genocide, or other war crimes. (Or we did the war crimes on their behalf. Supposedly.) Meanwhile, students always protest, authorities attack them for dissenting, and conservatives obediently slurp up the propaganda demonizing the enemy, like good little bootlickers.

      Kissinger is finally dead, good fucking riddance, but his legacy unfortunately lives on in bad foreign policy.

  40. Kyulen

    I was hoping we’d see them talking at the restaurant, and maybe Jocelyne also coming out to Hank, but I guess not. I’m kinda disappointed that we didn’t get to see that.

    1. Myra V

      Same. I was really looking forward to seeing Jocelyne come out to Hank and seeing what the reaction to that would be. Ah, well – ce la vie la vie, and all that.

      At least it looks like we have a setup for Jocelyne to be a part of the cast going forward, which I’m really looking forward to! Not everything that I’d hoped for from this arc – I would really have loved to see Hank end up in the Gender Studies course as he tries to make heads or tails of all this new gender and sexuality stuff that he’s never had to think about before – but I’ll take having Jocelyne on the comic on a regular basis.

      1. Li

        Jocelyne hasn’t been in the strip all that much, but her appearances have been marked almost exclusively with nonconfrontationalism. Her main advice to Joyce was consistently: choose your battles, keep your head down.

        The one exception we’ve had so far was when John pushed her too far, and that happened while she was in the process of leaving with him nonconfrontationally.

        I think she’s moving beyond that, but I also think a direct confrontation with Hank would’ve been a really big jump from her previous appearances, so I’m not surprised she got through the lunch without further incident.

        I imagine there are also some pretty bittersweet feelings for Willis now around the idea of writing strips where Joyce or Jocelyne are more honest with their parents. Sometimes, we don’t get the chance to do things we always thought there’d be time for later.

  41. Xujhan

    Man, I want to give Hank a hug.

    1. nadamás

      Why?

      1. Nymph

        It’s step one in suplexing someone.

      2. Xujhan

        He looks like he could use one, and no one else seems to be offering.

  42. Synnerman

    My condolences David. 🙁

  43. Vaishino

    Sorry for your loss 🙁

  44. Acher4

    Neither?

    I mean she is good, just not a boy.

    1. Rowen Morland

      Being “his good noun” means compliant example of said thing.

      1. Thing 2

        Yeah, this is what I meant about ‘good’ ^ up there. Hank actually means ‘agreeing with me’ (compliant), which is not any kind of ‘abstract good’, because Hank could change his opinions given time and facts.

        1. thejeff

          That’s always true for anyone though. None of us have any access to real “abstract good”. If we change our opinions, our ideas of who’s good change with that.
          Hank doesn’t mean compliant. He means Jocelyne’s siding with the terrorists. We think he’s wrong about that, so we think she’s good and he’s bad, but that’s not any kind of ‘abstract good’, we just mean ‘agrees with me’.
          What else is there?

    2. Laura

      But she’s not “his”. She’s her own person.

  45. Arianod

    Goodbye, Willis’s dad.

  46. darkoneko

    So uh none of the kids got pizza ?

    1. eh, whatever

      Or they all ate, and he’s just carrying the leftovers home.

    2. biomanzilla

      “Ok, Joshua, I’ll give you a slice if you agree to stop being a communist and support Bulmeria”

      “Tempting, but no”

      “Damn, had to try”

  47. The Queer Agenda [frog memes]

    Sending my condolences. <3

    Funerals are for the living, so the dress code should be bereaved's choice, right?

  48. Taffy

    Still think it’s really stupid for any school to be giving money or technology to the military. They have more than enough of both, they don’t need to be mooching off the college kids that didn’t fall for their recruitment tactics.

    1. thejeff

      The school isn’t giving money to the military. The school is investing in defense companies in the stock market. This is historically a profitable thing to do, increasing their endowment and giving them stability to better fund college stuff.

      1. Vulcanodon

        That’s what our university does, and the companies reciprocate with donations. I teach in the college of business, where our main auditorium is named for Caterpillar and that company heavily recruits from our graduates. There is often chalk art outside the entrances to the building demanding disinvestment, and telling students not to work for that company.

        I hope it inspires our graduates to stop and think about the ethics of money flow.

        1. Big Z

          I know when I was in undergrad ages ago, we had some more mutual-aid research agreements as well — our materials science lab got a LOT of free epoxy and fiberglass rolls from Shell, in exchange for the occasional “here’s a new formulation of epoxy, please use it for some of your classes and give feedback on it as a marketable product”.

          In at least one case while I was building sailplane wings there, that experimental outcome was “it’s strong as hell, but you can’t use it for a project that takes more than about 10 minutes to lay up or the beaker will catch on fire by itself from the epoxy curing reaction.”

        2. thejeff

          I want a batch of that epoxy. I’ve had epoxy flash cure while I was mixing it, melting the plastic container and burning my hands a little, but none that actually caught on fire.

        3. Big Z

          This stuff was, bar none, the most insane chemical I’ve personally worked with (aside from the mechanically dangerous stuff like the box o’ emphysema (aka “20 lbs of fiberglass microbeads, full respirator kit and apron/sleeves and a full hooded workspace required if you were working with it because the slightest breath of air would send a cloud of lung-destroying invisible death flying around”) — we knew it was exothermic enough to merit a “only mix in glass/pyrex” warning label, but this stuff was shooting out weird-colored flames.

          Hooray for the “mix new epoxies under the fume hood” rule.

    2. Big Z

      Also, a surprisingly wide variety of research funding comes (well, came) from project proposals that are not directly military-related but that are nonetheless funded by the military in some senses.

      As an example, research in everything from self-driving cars to photonic computer chips to cancer cures to satellite repair to sustainable recycling is funded in the US by DARPA (aka the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency). When “military funding for technology research” extends to “recycling cardboard/paper/wood waste into synthetic construction materials”, it’s hard to find a place that’s NOT getting military grant money (and therefore “providing technology to the military”).

      1. Vulcanodon

        And the Internet itself. (Originally) designed to survive a nuclear strike by routing packets around cities that aren’t there anymore.

      2. Taffy

        Well, shit. So, at what level does the divestment need to happen, for the school not to be aiding a genocide, but also not go bankrupt? My impression this whole time was that the college was directly providing something to the military, but what you’re describing makes it sound like “just divest lol” is easier said than done.

        1. Astariel

          It’s much easier said than done. But college kids don’t tend to be too interested in that kind of nuance.

        2. Adam Black

          The college invests in Carlas parents company. And that company is also a big tech company. And just like Google or Amazon is a military contractor

          . And their equipment is being used in this genocide.

          The idea is to put pressure on both the school and company not to be evil. Carla parents company was also described as engineering company with civilian uses and had ride
          apps.

          It’s ambiguous in the comic how much collision with the genocide they are or if they make weapons or military hardware directly.

        3. Adam Black

          Edit: Divesting from a specific company isn’t hard.

          But they probably don’t want to because Carla is going here. And that is motivation for the company to invest in the school too. Divesting from a Billionaire donor of student alumni and faculty is bad business.
          And solely divesting from a trans student parents company might also b| a bad look.
          Meaning they would have to pull out of multiple companies so not to look biased.

          Plus it may be symbolic only if the school is taking defense money for defense research.

        4. Big Z

          It’s decidedly not an easy problem. Most places that “divest” are doing so by, as Adam said, “not procuring things from companies that are also defense contractors or otherwise selling services to malfeasant governments” but even that is hard.

        5. Adam Black

          To be clear, when I said divestment was easy for a single company,
          I specifically meant “investment funds” that are specifically allocated for it,
          which is the demand of the students.

          There’s a difference between systemic divestment. I think what you described is closer to a boycott. Investment divestment is a specific strategy to pressure company to make different choices by attacking their stock prices.

          But it doesn’t mean Carlas company or the university can easily disestangle from the defense dept.

          A lot of these choices are mostly symbolic. But when done correctly add an economic price tag to genocide.

          For instance Caterpillar is wildly considered guilty of things. Without Sanctions a company could still get caterpillar equipment. But it would cost more. It wouldn’t be wholesale.

          ( I am a critic of BDS because they do very little actual economic BDS! Instead of focusing every day on freeing people held without trial or stolen land ,or suiing colonizing companies for taxes from Interpol bthey focus on boycotting pro Palestine movies or feckless academic boycotts, or entertainers.

          I think they lost the plot and BDS ( which should look like Ukraine one ) is bait and switch.

          For contrast consider everything in this comic is far beyond what the BDS committee is asking for. They haven’t even started or tried a South African style Economic divestment campaign. But instead of doing campaigns against their universities in investments they have done big campaigns against trivial things like trying to block unpopular Israeli hummus in whole Foods. Just the dumbest things imaginable

        6. Big Z

          But yeah, a BIG part of the problem in the US is that a significant amount of basic technology research grants/funding is provided by DARPA. And as such you know deep down that SOMEONE hopes for a military application eventually, even if what you’re actually doing is taking a couple hundred thousand to have a team of computer scientists and mechanical engineers try to make a rally car ACTUALLY drive autonomously off-road in a race course.

  49. FacelessDeviant

    Well, at least he has the good pizza.

  50. Needfuldoer

    Wait, that’s all the Hank for this chapter?

    1. Taffy

      At least until he gets kidnapped.

    2. Needfuldoer

      We just completely skipped over Galasso’s?! D:

      1. Taffy

        I’m trying not to think about that too much. It might be one of the worst aspects of this arc.

  51. Dot

    Hank: “sorry, did you say something?”

    Jocelyne: “uh, yeah, well, I’m… beaver.”

    Hank: “I really don’t understand the young peoples’ slang these days.”

    1. Needfuldoer

      “I always thought you were more of a Wally.”

      1. Dot

        Jocelyne: “Oh I think that’s the guy Dorothy cheated on when she and Joyce got together?”

        Hank: “wait what”

  52. Arioch

    I am sorry for your loss, Willis. Welcome to the Orphan Club.

  53. CianM1301

    Sincerest condolences, Mr. Willis.

  54. Vulcanodon

    Damn, Hank. That was cold.

    (Wondering how I would react if one of my kids went MAGA)

  55. Larathiel

    Damn he took the pizza with him instead of leaving it with the college kids?

    That IS cold! :O

  56. Marvelman

    I feel a little cheated. I feel we should have gotten to see the conversation at Galasso’s.

    1. Adam Black

      He can always show it black and white later

  57. Kim

    Great use of the differently shaped word ballon ”points”, in order to cominicate a change in voice from one panel to another, in a [technically] silent medium.
    Willis really is a master at their craft. And I appreciate that so much <3

  58. Opinion

    People dont seem to get just how rigid the walls of the fundie Christian media bubble are when you are as far in it as Hank. Like 100% of his news comes from far right news. Like to the point where Fox would be one of the more “balanced” of his news sources

    In an ideal world he recognizes he should get out of that bubble, but in reality he just doesnt have that information. 100% of the “information” he has says the protesters are wrong violent people. We all view that hes gotten the wrong conclusion (because we are filling in our own view on an irl protest that may or may not apply to the very vague ficticiius Bulmeria conflict). But its not hard to see how he reached the conclusion he did with the information he has.

    1. NGPZ

      ya name may be opinion, but ya speak the truth brotha

      even ignoring all the telling signs pointing to the IU pro-Palestine protests IRL specifically, the cycle of “patriot”-oriented prolefeed at play is clear

      conservative media goes out of their way to increasingly exaggerate the threat of violence from the left and minorities, making it look like we’re all unstable extremists ready at any minute to come busting down their doors and mashing their teeth in, PRECISELY so that when their own come busting down our doors to mash our teeth in, it will look to enough people like it’s self-defense.

      for Hank’s case yeah, like I said before the whitebred authoritarian Christian’s whole world is basically built on a WALL made of fear and paranoid conspiracy theories, and treading that wall is like walking a tight-rope

  59. Big Z

    Unrelated to the strip, but there’s a zone in Silksong called Sands of Karak?

    Hollow Knight is in the same universe as Homeworld confirmed?

    1. Big Z

      (I know it’s spelled differently but consider: bugs don’t understand phonics)

  60. Drainiest Drain

    I’m like days late to this realization but did anyone post the lyrics of All I Wanted under the recent Becky strips

  61. Kwyjibo

    A fine way to deal with a prickly topic like !Israel and !Gaza is, of course, to have the entire conversation off screen.

    1. NGPZ

      or to just not talk about it with people like Hank, which would probably just do more harm than good when he’s still trying to detangle himself from a toxic belief system which informed his everything

      heck besides with Asma, Joe could very well offer his views on this too,

      “Daisy I’m upset about the front page picture you chose for this, but not necessarily for the reasons you think.”

  62. Kazuma Shouri

    As a fellow bad girl, I feel ya Joc

  63. esolo

    ngl GIVEN THE INFORMATION HANK HAS (and hence dead-naming Jocelyn/calling her a boy) this is an…okay response. “Okay, fair enough. I’m going to express my disappointment with what you’re doing but I’m not going to argue with you about it or turn it into a parental power struggle, etc.”

    Obviously I hope Hank does some growing re. his personal politics and feelings about this protest and others like it, but he’s very clearly trying to be a good *dad*, and I give him some amount of credit for that.

  64. Rikunda

    So Hank still doesn’t know about his second daughter?

    1. Greylurker

      but he has reluctantly accepted a gay one…so baby steps

  65. biomanzilla

    I’m sure Hank will come back to campus in another six months and Jocelyne will try to come out to him again, only for Joyce to jump in and reveal another big secret to keep Hank distracted.

    1. Shade

      Well that’s when she explains she’s poly now.

  66. Cascoril

    It’s pretty interesting how Hanks ‘deprogamming’ seems so passive – maybe it’s just our biased viewpoint, but he really does seem to have picked what’s most important (his kids) and drag himself around to those things seeming okay

  67. Claire

    I’m really sorry for your loss.

  68. Chiatroll

    WTF man. no pizza scene inside Galasso’s?

  69. Suet

    what’s in that pizza? ham, cheese and betrayal? (the betrayal is pineapple)

    who’s a good boy? yes you aren’t, oh yes you aren’t

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