I don’t see why anyone (other than homophobes, but I don’t think that’s your deal) would be offended by that… could you elaborate? Mike doesn’t need evidence to say this because he’s Mike. He’s using Lincoln as an example to get Ethan to stay in the closet. It doesn’t have to be an accurate example.
It’s been speculated that William Shakespeare was bi.
Does this bug you as well?
Scrawly
It’s also been speculated that Shakespeare wasn’t actually Shakespeare. Truth be told, we know basically nothing about Shakespeare.
Daibhid C
The important thing we do know about Shakespeare is that he was a Brummy, so the plays should be performed in the most irritating of English accents.
Professor Zoot
We know a lot about Shakespeare compared to most of his contemporaries. The Shakespeare wasn’t Shakespeareeee people are the grassy knoll folks of English literature. Most of the evidence ofLincoln being gay is, at best, ambiguous; there are better candidates for closeted presidents.
Jererry
Lincoln could have been gay, or he may have just been stuck with a batshit crazy wife and just not have been that into her. Between that and a Civil War, I can see him not being Mr. Romance.
Mkvenner
Bi no.
Broggly
What are you talking about? Look at all this evidence that Lincoln was gay.
I knew what that was before clicking it. Also, I love you.
DudeMyDadOwnsADealership
That’s kind of the joke. It stacks on Ethan getting the idea that pulling a George Michael would be a good thing. Pooor Joycie.
Brendan
I don’t understand why people are so resistant nowadays to the idea Lincoln was gay. When I was growing up, it was just taken for granted by those who look into such things; suddenly, in 2005 I think, a book brought it into the mainstream, and there was this enormous backlash.
Valdrax
I don’t think that was ever assumed outside of people who really wanted it to be true. Most Lincoln biographers scoff at the idea with good reason; much of the supporting evidence for him being gay comes from modern, out of context misinterpretation of 19th century social mores.
I’d put more stock into Buchanan than Lincoln, considering that there was LOT more contemporary speculation about him and William King and a bit more of a cover-up of the nature of their relationship, unlike Lincoln and his close friends.
He shared a bed with a favorite bodyguard. Not with any bodyguard mind you, but a certain one.
Yea…
Chupi
In an era where such practices were commonplace while traveling. There’s plenty of evidence that certain historical figures were not heterosexuals as usually assumed. But Lincoln really is a case of “it’s about as likely as Knockout and Breakdown. People want him to be, they see the strong bond, and so they jump to the conclusion that he must be and here’s the evidence.”
Not to deny the possibility. But the argument for him being gay is just… Dumb. Unless some new evidence has popped up I haven’t heard about yet, in which case sorry for being misinformed.
It’s more that the practice seemed specific to the one guy, not all his bodyguards, suggesting there might be “alternate” reasons for him doing it. Not a “slam dunk” as you put it, but certainly something to speculate on.
Chupi
And speculate away. I’m cool with people offering it as potential evidence. I’m just iffy on how some people like to jump on these things and declare it as proof rather than evidence, or fact rather than speculation. And have a hard time seeing it as solid evidence on its own, just potential evidence.
showler
I like the way you say “like Knockout and Breakdown” and just assume everyone gets the reference.
Not everyone here watches everything Transformers. Thankfully, for that there is Google.
Chupi
Yeah, I have a bad habit of doing that in general. Sorry.
Valdrax
He also shared a bed with several other men at different times of his life, and he was always quite open about it. This was no unusual at the time. It’s probably worth noting that in a time of America’s worst partisan strife, no one accused him of homosexuality, despite said sleeping arrangements.
Oberon
Here’s some idle speculation:
Let’s say you’re Lincoln, and you’re traveling with, say, 10 bodyguards. You stay at places with a limited number of rooms/beds, forcing some double-ups. Repeatedly sleeping in a bed with the same one could mean:
1) You’re having gay sex with him;
2) He’s the one who snores the least, and you get the best night’s sleep with him in your bed.
There’s a “Lincoln was gay” movement. I haven’t paid much attention to it, beyond “He had a really close male friend.” I think the “Shakespear was gay” movement has a stronger case.
Blue
Sadly, “Buchanan was gay” has a much stronger case. So instead of Lincoln, us queers get they guy who is pretty much universally considered the worst president in the history of the country.
On a mostly unrelated note, the case for Shakespeare being bi is pretty good as well.
Professor Zoot
Buchanan was certainly accused of being gay during his time in office, but if he was he was also certainly interested in women as well. As for being the worst, this is a country with Polk, Grant, Harding and George W. Bush (A direct descendant of Polk on his mother’s side) on its list of former chief executives.
mechaqua
As Zap said he let the union collapse which led too the most bloodiest conflicts in US History. Yeah iam going to say Epic Fail is a understatement here. Polk tenure saw the opening of the smithsoian and despite stealing land away from Mexico he is till.looked upon favorably I am not condoing his actions and in hinsight they were wrong but he is still considered a popular president Harding as bad as he was yeah he was bad never finished his term and hs succesor was re-elected Grant despite crouption was re-elected and bush… He didnt let the union ccollapse Buchanan will probably remain the worst for awile
You can’t really blame the collapse of a country on one guy. There wasn’t really much he could do to stop it, given the hate that was rolling around, and the fact that both sides really, really, really believed in their arguments. If you do your homework, you’ll see that both sides also had very good reasons for acting as they did. The problem with the Civil War is that like most wars, its not as black and white as you’d like to make it. It’s two good guys fighting, not a good guy and a bad guy. Sure, if it was just buchanan vs. all the idiots, you could blame him. but it doesn’t work that way when both sides have very very strong reasons for doing what they do. That Civil War ball got rolling way back when they were framing our constitution and trying to figure out 3/5 of people. It was inevitable, unless MANY people made different decisions over time. If MANY people had chosen differently, it could have been different. Buchanan? Ha! By himself. Nah.
Regalli
@PetrePan: Actually… As I recall, in between the time where Lincoln was elected and before he took office, some of the states were already seceding or preparing to and Buchanan just… let them.
He wasn’t solely responsible, but he really didn’t try to stop them at the end. That said, not an expert on this, so feel free to correct me.
DarkVeghetta
Remember you can 100% claim J. Edgar Hoover… … yeah.
Don’t feel too bad though, George Bush is most likely hetero, so you’re at least not stuck with him.
BrotherFlounder
There’s circumstantial evidence which says he was, but I tend to think he wasn’t. There’s much more concrete evidence that Buchanan was gay. Though the general consensus is that we’re about as happy to claim Buchanan as we are to claim J. Edgar Hoover.
(Though maybe I shouldn’t be the one making this joke, seeing as I haven’t actually read the book yet)
Brendan
He should have been gay in that movie. There aren’t enough movies about gay vampire hunters.
Usayasha
I think Buffy is bi; does that count?
Pat
“Gay” and “vampire hunter” are mutually exclusive now?
Brasca1
Considering how much effort Lincoln put into courting Mary Todd I seriously doubt he was gay. It’s not like she was rich or that big of a prize. Now his predecessor James Buchanan was likely gay since he never married and was reputed to be more than friends with a senator he shared a house with. However, he is also our worst president and typically if a group is going to claim someone as their own they want a winner.
mechaqua
Also Buchanan was also known to skinny dip in the Potomac. Not sure if that has to do with anything just an interesting fact about the President who let the Union fall apart, also Mary Todd use to hold séances in the white house though I think that is common knowledge.
Professor Zoot
John Quincy Adams was the first President to make a fuss about about Potomac skinny-dipping (he also wrote that sex outdoors was the best sex).
Mkvenner
Ok that last thing is news to me.
John
Well, there’s always the bi option. I was thinking that when I was reading about the arguments about Richard the Lionheart being gay.
“He had a wife and an illegitimate son!”
“He was probably sleeping with that dude!”
If only there was some way for a man to do both while being true to himself…
Professor Zoot
Lion Heart may have fathered a child, but he was pretty unambiguously into duds almost exclusively. He may well have been in the “Close your eyes and think of England” camp when it came to the ladies.
Whether or not Lincoln was gay is a matter of debate. Neither argument really has much evidence to go off of, as far as I’ve read or been able to find. Lincoln, of course, went through the motions of being straight. He had a wife, children, etc. But we also have to remember that this was a time when being gay was a crime. A crime you could go to jail for. People tried to hide it as best they could.
That being said, most of the evidence used to make the claim that Lincoln was gay is circumstantial at best, and can be explained pretty simply.
That said, I’m not a Lincoln scholar. I honestly don’t even like the guy much. He was kind of an asshole, who for some reason gets credit for “freeing the slaves.”
He might have been gay, he may not have been. But either way, these characters are young and in college. No reason they would acknowledge the complexities of this historical oddity.
Calendril
I find it interesting that Lincoln has to be proved to be gay – that straight is the 100% default unless proven otherwise. Let’s face it, I doubt that married (with children) Republicans coming out of the closet is unique to the 21st century.
begbert2
Straight is the 90%-95% default, and
with pretty good reason.
lord of dance
its as much a matter of circumstance than anything else. if lincoln spent his whole life starting wars at the gay bar then the burden of proof would be on showing hes straight, but since he was married with what should have been a bunch of kids (lots of death) you gotta prove he was gay
Mikehatesyou
It offends me that the writer called Lincoln gay. Is it just because he was against slavery, Mr. Willis? Not all anti-slave supporters are gay. You are behind the times, sir.
Discussion (262) - “Lincoln”
Gill
Uh Oh
Cabooceratops
I had the exact same thought.
Plasma Mongoose
Your wish is granted!
Oh Crap!
Kelly
Welp.
Church
Oh snap
Jen Aside
NOW TO BRING THE JEWS TO CHURCH
Mikehatesyou
The GAY Jews.
mechaqua
Well this can only lead to good things!
mnk
Everything is fine and it will be that way forever!
alex
for mike, sure.
DarkVeghetta
Mike always wins in the end. Misery is eternal.
Mkvenner
Something in here deeply offends me.
mechaqua
Is it Joyce’s smile and cheery deposition?
Mkvenner
No i have gotten used to that.
Eric
The Lincoln part?
Mkvenner
Yes.
Doop
I don’t see why anyone (other than homophobes, but I don’t think that’s your deal) would be offended by that… could you elaborate? Mike doesn’t need evidence to say this because he’s Mike. He’s using Lincoln as an example to get Ethan to stay in the closet. It doesn’t have to be an accurate example.
Viktoria
Eh, there’s a lot of support for that. Figure 40+ presidents, at least a few of them were probably gay. Lincoln’s just the most obvious one.
Mkvenner
Actually no there isn’t outside of people make shit up.
Ragnal
It’s been speculated that William Shakespeare was bi.
Does this bug you as well?
Scrawly
It’s also been speculated that Shakespeare wasn’t actually Shakespeare. Truth be told, we know basically nothing about Shakespeare.
Daibhid C
The important thing we do know about Shakespeare is that he was a Brummy, so the plays should be performed in the most irritating of English accents.
Professor Zoot
We know a lot about Shakespeare compared to most of his contemporaries. The Shakespeare wasn’t Shakespeareeee people are the grassy knoll folks of English literature. Most of the evidence ofLincoln being gay is, at best, ambiguous; there are better candidates for closeted presidents.
Jererry
Lincoln could have been gay, or he may have just been stuck with a batshit crazy wife and just not have been that into her. Between that and a Civil War, I can see him not being Mr. Romance.
Mkvenner
Bi no.
Broggly
What are you talking about? Look at all this evidence that Lincoln was gay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewrHj_RRk0Y
Null Set
I knew what that was before clicking it. Also, I love you.
DudeMyDadOwnsADealership
That’s kind of the joke. It stacks on Ethan getting the idea that pulling a George Michael would be a good thing. Pooor Joycie.
Brendan
I don’t understand why people are so resistant nowadays to the idea Lincoln was gay. When I was growing up, it was just taken for granted by those who look into such things; suddenly, in 2005 I think, a book brought it into the mainstream, and there was this enormous backlash.
Valdrax
I don’t think that was ever assumed outside of people who really wanted it to be true. Most Lincoln biographers scoff at the idea with good reason; much of the supporting evidence for him being gay comes from modern, out of context misinterpretation of 19th century social mores.
I’d put more stock into Buchanan than Lincoln, considering that there was LOT more contemporary speculation about him and William King and a bit more of a cover-up of the nature of their relationship, unlike Lincoln and his close friends.
Aizat
Wait, Lincoln was gay? News to me.
Mkvenner
No he wasn’t.
turkishproverb
He shared a bed with a favorite bodyguard. Not with any bodyguard mind you, but a certain one.
Yea…
Chupi
In an era where such practices were commonplace while traveling. There’s plenty of evidence that certain historical figures were not heterosexuals as usually assumed. But Lincoln really is a case of “it’s about as likely as Knockout and Breakdown. People want him to be, they see the strong bond, and so they jump to the conclusion that he must be and here’s the evidence.”
Not to deny the possibility. But the argument for him being gay is just… Dumb. Unless some new evidence has popped up I haven’t heard about yet, in which case sorry for being misinformed.
turkishproverb
It’s more that the practice seemed specific to the one guy, not all his bodyguards, suggesting there might be “alternate” reasons for him doing it. Not a “slam dunk” as you put it, but certainly something to speculate on.
Chupi
And speculate away. I’m cool with people offering it as potential evidence. I’m just iffy on how some people like to jump on these things and declare it as proof rather than evidence, or fact rather than speculation. And have a hard time seeing it as solid evidence on its own, just potential evidence.
showler
I like the way you say “like Knockout and Breakdown” and just assume everyone gets the reference.
Not everyone here watches everything Transformers. Thankfully, for that there is Google.
Chupi
Yeah, I have a bad habit of doing that in general. Sorry.
Valdrax
He also shared a bed with several other men at different times of his life, and he was always quite open about it. This was no unusual at the time. It’s probably worth noting that in a time of America’s worst partisan strife, no one accused him of homosexuality, despite said sleeping arrangements.
Oberon
Here’s some idle speculation:
Let’s say you’re Lincoln, and you’re traveling with, say, 10 bodyguards. You stay at places with a limited number of rooms/beds, forcing some double-ups. Repeatedly sleeping in a bed with the same one could mean:
1) You’re having gay sex with him;
2) He’s the one who snores the least, and you get the best night’s sleep with him in your bed.
DarkVeghetta
3) Second leads to first.
Revil Fox
Unless he was.
captainswift
There’s a “Lincoln was gay” movement. I haven’t paid much attention to it, beyond “He had a really close male friend.” I think the “Shakespear was gay” movement has a stronger case.
Blue
Sadly, “Buchanan was gay” has a much stronger case. So instead of Lincoln, us queers get they guy who is pretty much universally considered the worst president in the history of the country.
On a mostly unrelated note, the case for Shakespeare being bi is pretty good as well.
Professor Zoot
Buchanan was certainly accused of being gay during his time in office, but if he was he was also certainly interested in women as well. As for being the worst, this is a country with Polk, Grant, Harding and George W. Bush (A direct descendant of Polk on his mother’s side) on its list of former chief executives.
mechaqua
As Zap said he let the union collapse which led too the most bloodiest conflicts in US History. Yeah iam going to say Epic Fail is a understatement here. Polk tenure saw the opening of the smithsoian and despite stealing land away from Mexico he is till.looked upon favorably I am not condoing his actions and in hinsight they were wrong but he is still considered a popular president Harding as bad as he was yeah he was bad never finished his term and hs succesor was re-elected Grant despite crouption was re-elected and bush… He didnt let the union ccollapse Buchanan will probably remain the worst for awile
Petre Pan
You can’t really blame the collapse of a country on one guy. There wasn’t really much he could do to stop it, given the hate that was rolling around, and the fact that both sides really, really, really believed in their arguments. If you do your homework, you’ll see that both sides also had very good reasons for acting as they did. The problem with the Civil War is that like most wars, its not as black and white as you’d like to make it. It’s two good guys fighting, not a good guy and a bad guy. Sure, if it was just buchanan vs. all the idiots, you could blame him. but it doesn’t work that way when both sides have very very strong reasons for doing what they do. That Civil War ball got rolling way back when they were framing our constitution and trying to figure out 3/5 of people. It was inevitable, unless MANY people made different decisions over time. If MANY people had chosen differently, it could have been different. Buchanan? Ha! By himself. Nah.
Regalli
@PetrePan: Actually… As I recall, in between the time where Lincoln was elected and before he took office, some of the states were already seceding or preparing to and Buchanan just… let them.
He wasn’t solely responsible, but he really didn’t try to stop them at the end. That said, not an expert on this, so feel free to correct me.
DarkVeghetta
Remember you can 100% claim J. Edgar Hoover… … yeah.
Don’t feel too bad though, George Bush is most likely hetero, so you’re at least not stuck with him.
BrotherFlounder
There’s circumstantial evidence which says he was, but I tend to think he wasn’t. There’s much more concrete evidence that Buchanan was gay. Though the general consensus is that we’re about as happy to claim Buchanan as we are to claim J. Edgar Hoover.
FlyingFish
Also a vampire hunter.
Ragnal
Oh c’mon now, Abraham Lincoln was NOT gay.
…he was a vampire hunter.
(Though maybe I shouldn’t be the one making this joke, seeing as I haven’t actually read the book yet)
Brendan
He should have been gay in that movie. There aren’t enough movies about gay vampire hunters.
Usayasha
I think Buffy is bi; does that count?
Pat
“Gay” and “vampire hunter” are mutually exclusive now?
Brasca1
Considering how much effort Lincoln put into courting Mary Todd I seriously doubt he was gay. It’s not like she was rich or that big of a prize. Now his predecessor James Buchanan was likely gay since he never married and was reputed to be more than friends with a senator he shared a house with. However, he is also our worst president and typically if a group is going to claim someone as their own they want a winner.
mechaqua
Also Buchanan was also known to skinny dip in the Potomac. Not sure if that has to do with anything just an interesting fact about the President who let the Union fall apart, also Mary Todd use to hold séances in the white house though I think that is common knowledge.
Professor Zoot
John Quincy Adams was the first President to make a fuss about about Potomac skinny-dipping (he also wrote that sex outdoors was the best sex).
Mkvenner
Ok that last thing is news to me.
John
Well, there’s always the bi option. I was thinking that when I was reading about the arguments about Richard the Lionheart being gay.
“He had a wife and an illegitimate son!”
“He was probably sleeping with that dude!”
If only there was some way for a man to do both while being true to himself…
Professor Zoot
Lion Heart may have fathered a child, but he was pretty unambiguously into duds almost exclusively. He may well have been in the “Close your eyes and think of England” camp when it came to the ladies.
LS
Whether or not Lincoln was gay is a matter of debate. Neither argument really has much evidence to go off of, as far as I’ve read or been able to find. Lincoln, of course, went through the motions of being straight. He had a wife, children, etc. But we also have to remember that this was a time when being gay was a crime. A crime you could go to jail for. People tried to hide it as best they could.
That being said, most of the evidence used to make the claim that Lincoln was gay is circumstantial at best, and can be explained pretty simply.
That said, I’m not a Lincoln scholar. I honestly don’t even like the guy much. He was kind of an asshole, who for some reason gets credit for “freeing the slaves.”
He might have been gay, he may not have been. But either way, these characters are young and in college. No reason they would acknowledge the complexities of this historical oddity.
Calendril
I find it interesting that Lincoln has to be proved to be gay – that straight is the 100% default unless proven otherwise. Let’s face it, I doubt that married (with children) Republicans coming out of the closet is unique to the 21st century.
begbert2
Straight is the 90%-95% default, and
with pretty good reason.
lord of dance
its as much a matter of circumstance than anything else. if lincoln spent his whole life starting wars at the gay bar then the burden of proof would be on showing hes straight, but since he was married with what should have been a bunch of kids (lots of death) you gotta prove he was gay
Mikehatesyou
It offends me that the writer called Lincoln gay. Is it just because he was against slavery, Mr. Willis? Not all anti-slave supporters are gay. You are behind the times, sir.
Historyman68
I know it’s just a joke, but Lincoln’s Republicans had almost nothing to do with today’s Republicans.
And politicians turning out to be gay isn’t exclusively a Republican thing.
Mkvenner
Actually my defualt is bi.
Stephen
LaFayette was like the white house bicycle.
Seriously.
fellixe
“Log Cabin” Republicans? Hello?
Naw, probably just a coincidence. But a funny one.
Professor Zoot
Not a coincidence, they chose the name because of the speculation about Lincoln.
Blue
I didn’t realize it was specifically the speculation as opposed to “what the republican party was ‘supposed’ to be about” or something like that.
Cool fact!
McGruff the Crime Dog
That’s not how statistics work.
begbert2
I think this is an example of the popular ‘lies, damned lies, and’ variant.
McGruff the Crime Dog
I think that you don’t know how statistics work either.
DarkVeghetta
Lie enough and you can tip the statistics in your favor.