nah, just until you learn sexual virginity is like anything-else-virginity… something you haven’t experienced before until you do
[has no room to speak since the first time was exactly as expected and also got better BUT STILL it was a one-off thing and peeps totally can move on from even the worst kind of experience short of death]
Yeah, I understand her perspective, but in my books Liz is ruined already, not because of any hankies panky with Joe. That doesn’t matter at all in my books. But the behaviour she’s exhibited, along with a total lack of care for any of the people around her except for herself (n.b. this is about Sarah and Joyce, I’ve got no issues with her calling a stop here. Props actually for stopping because she didn’t feel right. That takes strength).
So yeah, you already ruined yourself because of how you treat people Liz. Virginity is irrelevant to that.
Rose by Any Other Name
Yikes!
Way to deny someone any chance to grow or become better with experience. Have you never been an insensitive jerk for a couple hours because you were too wrapped up in your own issues to realize that you were ignoring those around you?
No one is ‘ruined.’ Ever. Not while they’re alive. Anyone can choose to change.
Vulcan
I don’t think that’s what she’s referring to.
It’s common in fundamental religions for an unmarried woman’s value to be determined solely and entirely by her virginity. Once she’s no longer a virgin but still unmarried, she’s ‘ruined’ and of no value as a person anymore.
It’s slut-shaming taken to a ridiculous extreme, and it’s extremely destructive to a woman’s psychology, especially if she is raped or molested.
Decidedly Orthogonal
Sure they can changed, they rarely do, but they _can_. But for me, when a person persistently walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and treats the people around them like shit, then I’ll keep my distance, as I don’t need that in my life. Singular mistakes are very different from a pattern of behaviour. Liz has (trusting Sarah here) a demonstrated pattern of behaviour. Now, if she works hard enough to demonstrate a changed pattern (not just, *flash*, look it’s new Liz) then I might re-evaluate her.
But I’m a trash-heap dealing with manipulators and perjurers every other day. I’m a lil burnt out on humanity.
” When people show you who they are, believe them.”
–Maya Angelou
S.R.
But that’s not them being RUINED. That’s them being a jerk. Even if someone is a jerk for their entire life, that still doesn’t make them ruined. And someone being a jerk before they’re even in their 20s, before their brain is done developing, doesn’t mean much yet. Particularly not if they’re, say, freshly in a new environment, with new freedoms.
Jon Rich
“When someone persistently….”
That’s the thing, though. We don’t know how she normally treats people, because we’ve only seen her for a few hours of her life. This could be atypical for her, and in fact there are several indications that it is.
Felian
very goood take, i agree!
No one is ruined. people can be assholes at any point in time, and deserve criticism or people showing them their own boundaries by staying the hell away from the asshole person, but anyone can step up and work on themselves until they are decent.
I still have hope for the assholes in my life i’m currently not close to, but maybe one day they’ll live up to what i think they can become!
zee
Yep, we love moral puritanism in this house. You go, denying people room for growth or redemption, declaring people “ruined” as soon as they do something bad!
S.R.
Making a poor choice, or even many poor choices, doesn’t mean someone is “ruined”. That’s an incredibly harmful way to go at the world, expecting that nobody will ever make any sort of mistake, and declaring that if they do it’s permanently messed them up. That’s just… not how this works.
I’m 27 and I still want my first time to be with someone I care about. I want it to be special, y’know? Maybe not love, but someone I’m really fond of.
It would be good to atleast be somewhat found of them, atleast someone I want to remember.
The Wellerman
Yeah totally!
I know it’s really likely that I’m try it with a few people before I finally find that special someone, or even a polyamory if need be.
But I just really want the first one to be someone really memorable and special somehow, you know?
Rose by Any Other Name
My wife and I would love to get a poly thing going, but it’s hard to arrange. The best we’ve managed is some swinging with other couples and a few friends who we sometimes have sex with. And we haven’t been with anyone else since 2019 due to COVID.
I would be down to try that sorta thing but also I’ve been single my whole life so I’d absolutely be way too needy for that sorta thing. It’s a dynamic I’m fond of though haha.
Xenocide
Good luck! I imagine finding the right people who all work well together can be a challenge.
I was involved with a poly couple in that “friends who we sometimes have sex with” role a few years ago, they were looking for long term people to join but weren’t having much luck with it unfortunately.
Knuf Wons
First, think about how hard it is to find one person you really click with. Then think about how hard it would be to find another person that both of you really click with. You now understand the increasing complexity and difficulty of stable poly relationships. Or so I’ve been told 😛
Tenty
Exactly! Each new individual in a poly relationship increases the potential difficulty in maintaining the relationship as a whole exponentially as each new person has to fit with every person already there in ways that don’t break down when multiple people are interacting at once, but at the same time they also increase the potential joys of the relationship by significant margins.
Thulcandran
I hope this isn’t too intrusive, and it does depend on where you are geographically, but #Open is a pretty good app for that, or at least was last I checked. It’s gotten a little more Basic vs Premium, though.
Tenty
I would like to try poly at some point – evidence thus far leans towards poly but is ultimately inconclusive. My wife’s opinions on a lot of things have changed drastically over the time we’ve known each other (religious indoctrination is a hell of a drug, and when she moved out of her parent’s place she lost her ability to reliably attend church so all these concepts like sex toys, BDSM, trans, etc. have been beating against a steadily-weaker bastion of doctrine), and I’ve helped her figure out some tests she can do to gauge her position on a few things directly and indirectly related to poly. The ball is in her court on when and how thorough the tests are, although it’ll probably be a while before the metaphorical walls crumble enough for her to perform them.
I will note that these tests, on either side, do not involve cheating. We’ve additionally come to an explicit agreement on what constitutes cheating so there can be no semantic defense should one of us do so.
Geneseepaws
Hold onto that Idea, because it’s been a full half a century and I Still remember them, and miss them. Pick someone Carefully!
There’s at least one girl I wanna have my first time with but since she lives in new york and it’s VIRUS TIME I’m not sure if that’s gonna work out in the near future. o3o And I’m not exactly hitting it off with any other eligible singles in the interim.
The best policy is you should try to have your first time be with someone(s?) you care about, BUT don’t declare everything ruined forever if it’s bad or you broke up and now you hate that person(s?) and everything is terrible, bc honestly the first time with someone else is also amazing, especially if it’s enthusiastic consent!
…predictive text suggested “especially if it’s dysphoria” and that’s, uh… NOT great ?
The Wellerman
Awe great. Our phones have become sentient, and now they’re trying to unload their issues unto us.
It is a very common and respectable wish, and I wish you the best of luck with it. A lot of people feel the same, and it works out for some of them.
Which is not to say that people who want or settle for anything else are wrong in any way to do so, or that the romantic ideal of virgin sex with one’s one true soulmate is a more worthy ideal than any other.
Knuf Wons
I misread this as “I wish you the best of fuck” and I think that is strangely appropriate given the topic of the thread.
Power to you, just… make sure _you_ have agency over your experience in that regard. Trusting it to be special because of the other person involved… well, it makes you vulnerable. Sex is like any other activity. We’re not very good at being a lover without practice. Now that carries the caveat that like any activity you can do it with your own good intentions and a good caring person, or with a selfish bossy jerk. But the amount of pressure society puts on a v-card is a religious hold-over from an era when women (oh so long ago /s) was only viewed as an object like sheep, a cow, or a chair.
Its ALWAYS going to ber special, but usually for the wrong reasons.
Whats most important is someone respects you as human , honors your boundaries ( which you want to break ) and >>>HAS A GOOD SENSE of Humor<<<
In reality first times are usually not solemn affairs people hope, but Pretty ridiculous. Its not all Pretty and cute. There is a lot of unexpected body fluids. and Noises too. The movies never show pools of sweat. or unexpected queefing. Orgasms sucking the condom off your body and getting deep lost ( it happens ) ( or hysterical tears when that happens ) or unexpected periods. ( or just bleeding ) . but if both people have decent senses of humor it just becomes a series of very private shared jokes.
IMHO find someone you can laugh with and go for it.
adam Black
Rose by Any Other Name
My various virginities have gone in just about as many ways as such things can go.
Of my first time with another human, I have very mixed memories. On the one hand, it was playful and exploratory and actually went pretty well.
And on the other hand, she made me watch Grease 2. **shudders**
Roborat
Well said, I was going to post something similar, but you said it better.
I mean, it’s the first time you’re doing a thing that’s fairly important to most people. It’s inherently at least a bit special. Pretty reasonable to want that multi-person thing to involve a person you like.
Oh yeah. The idea that one can ruin oneself with sex is very sad.
Also, yes, so true. I think that ‘virginity is just something you haven’t done yet’ is a concept that I didn’t quite make clear when I talked about taking my own virginity some weeks (months now?) ago. I have had and lost many virginities in my life, and none of them left me with less – rather, I gained valuable experience and learned more about myself and my body.
That isn’t to say one’s first time isn’t important, but that can be said of the first time doing many things.
You are so wise. That’s all I can say about what you wrote here.
Wise.
Rose by Any Other Name
@The Wellerman
That was a very kind thing to say. A little overwhelming actually, which is why I did not reply previously. I honestly wasn’t sure how to reply. My first attempts to make a joke came off as flip at best. Anyway, thank you. I am not often described as such and am honored that you feel so.
Two of my first times were grossly improper, and if what happened were proved then the other people involved would go to jail, even after all these decades.
But they didn’t ruin me. And any doctrine that asserts that they did can be damned.
Rose by Any Other Name
Age difference?
Technically that happened to me with my first girlfriend. I was a freshman, she was a senior (both in high school). The age difference would have been a problem if anyone realized were dating and not just friends.
Agemegos
Four years when I was eight; about twenty years when I was fifteen.
Fox
@Agemegos *Appropriate gesture of support* from a fellow survivor.
Agemegos
Thanks.
Fox
You’re very welcome.
Shadow Dreamer
*similar gestures at both of you*
Geneseepaws
Agemegos, You have my full respect, full respect for growing up to be who you are today.
Rose by Any Other Name
Yikes.
I would put that waaay past improper on their parts.
Agemegos
Context and circumstances matter, and framing and intent. Those would have been — and similar experiences usually are — much worse with a framing that I had done anything wrong or shameful, or with any sort of build-up or follow-through. As it happened, breaking my leg at eleven did me more lasting harm, because it happen when I had plucked my courage up to join other children in some exciting/dangerous play. Risky play may teach resilience if the falls &c. result in bumps and pains that you can learn don’t matter as much as you feared. It does the opposite when you break your leg.
So anyway — not good experiences, and certainly not useful learning opportunities, but not as bad as they sound and not nearly as bad as others have. I’m fine about those now.
Thanks, but truly, for me, in the unusual circumstances in which those things happened, they weren’t as bad as missing a connecting flight at Melbourne airport when I was ten, and didn’t do as much damage as breaking my leg when I was eleven.
I think it helped that I was raised without the notion of sexual purity, and without an expectations that first times be special and have to be wonderful. But that’s not everything that went my way either.
Historically, that social concept was developed to control women. By putting their entire value on how they relate to men, they could be restrained easily. There’s a few factors that go into that, but the fundamental one is that women are ruined socially, except to the person that took their virginity. This then locked the women into marriage (and forced marriage to a rapist, where valid), just as much as any other social or religious factors did. As those other influences lessened (thanks to feminism) the concept changed to become more focused on being romanticized, rather than being focused on punishment and censure.
Fundamentally, as Ana led us off with, there’s absolutely nothing to relate sexual virginity to any sort of “specialness” more than any other kind of virginity (eg, food). A woman (or man) isn’t ruined by it (barring in the sense of any kind of inhibitive physical trauma, as can occur when a child is forced into sex), as they can still function sexually- and non-sexually- just the same after. Beyond that, any other factors are the same as non-virginal sex: Rape is still traumatic, sex is still a mixed bag heavily reliant on circumstance, partner, and emotional/psychological elements, and so forth. Virginity is, frankly, not special. In fact, social illusions aside, the only special thing about virginity for a woman is in how willing and capable your partner is in handling your hymen (assuming you haven’t broken that naturally, and were born with one).
Any other kind of bad or good experience covers the same concepts as any other domain- you may regret ordering your first pizza from a crappy place, but neither you nor pizza are ruined because of that. Sure, you’ll have some hang-ups about it but, again, that’s just the same as any bad virginal experience. You can, however, regret that you put yourself into a needlessly painful experience, so that’s valid- but again, that has nothing to do with “purity”, “chastity”, or any other artificial concepts used solely for social influencing.
In short? Ew to all of it.
Eldritchy
STDs
Adept
Absolutely agreed with HeySo.
Virginity is a toxic concept, mostly used to control women.
I would like to qualify that I don’t mean this is exactly like the AWFUL thing that happened to Joyce but more put in a situation that she was not ready for at all. Except in Joyce’s case, a complete monster as opposed to…Joe.
I interpret this moment as Joe thinks this is what would happen if he pursued Joyce right now. He’s going to triple down on trying to quash his crush now after having this reaction from Liz after making out. He 9000% doesn’t want to make Joyce feel that way (especially since he knows about The Incident) and this is absolutely going to convince him that this is a 1:1 of what it would be like if he and Joyce dated. And/or play further into breaking his complex “you can’t hurt people if there’s no strings attached” because he knows that there ARE guys on this campus who wouldn’t have immediately stopped.
Joe’s gonna grow up to be a better guy than his dad but wow is it coming with a lot of baggage and hopefully therapy. (though let’s be real, seeing Ethan it looks like campus therapists here are shit)
KiaStirling
oh fuck I’m liz now
Bleuryder
I don’t think campus therapists are shit (although, we all know in general they probably are.) Rather that instead of going to A therapist, Ethan has chosen the route of not seeking any therapy.
I also agree with you on Joe, and would like to add that I think this moment here is going to be a character growth moment for him for the better.
Deanatay
Hey it worked great for Amber no it really didn’t
Z
Honestly he’s probably not wrong. For all her rahh rahh atheist talk it takes a long time to undo that level of indoctrination. It’s not uncommon for people with this level of programming to have a bit of a mental breakdown after they get married because they still see sex as dirty and sinful and shameful and either can’t bring themselves to have it, or the loss ofnvirginity is felt so profoundly it actually does psychological damage.
Seriously abstinence only really fucks people up.
anonymsly
Oooof, I think you’re right, Kia. Maybe with a side of getting very protective with Joyce re: other guys, because maybe THEY won’t care whether Joyce feels this way. (Does Joe have any clue about Joyce and the party? I don’t remember.)
417 thoughts on “Ruined”
Ana Chronistic
nah, just until you learn sexual virginity is like anything-else-virginity… something you haven’t experienced before until you do
[has no room to speak since the first time was exactly as expected and also got better BUT STILL it was a one-off thing and peeps totally can move on from even the worst kind of experience short of death]
…
sad trombone(r)
Ana Chronistic
(to be clear I do get Liz’s freak out despite never having this exact experience, I’m not a MONSTER)
Decidedly Orthogonal
Yeah, I understand her perspective, but in my books Liz is ruined already, not because of any hankies panky with Joe. That doesn’t matter at all in my books. But the behaviour she’s exhibited, along with a total lack of care for any of the people around her except for herself (n.b. this is about Sarah and Joyce, I’ve got no issues with her calling a stop here. Props actually for stopping because she didn’t feel right. That takes strength).
So yeah, you already ruined yourself because of how you treat people Liz. Virginity is irrelevant to that.
Rose by Any Other Name
Yikes!
Way to deny someone any chance to grow or become better with experience. Have you never been an insensitive jerk for a couple hours because you were too wrapped up in your own issues to realize that you were ignoring those around you?
No one is ‘ruined.’ Ever. Not while they’re alive. Anyone can choose to change.
Vulcan
I don’t think that’s what she’s referring to.
It’s common in fundamental religions for an unmarried woman’s value to be determined solely and entirely by her virginity. Once she’s no longer a virgin but still unmarried, she’s ‘ruined’ and of no value as a person anymore.
It’s slut-shaming taken to a ridiculous extreme, and it’s extremely destructive to a woman’s psychology, especially if she is raped or molested.
Decidedly Orthogonal
Sure they can changed, they rarely do, but they _can_. But for me, when a person persistently walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and treats the people around them like shit, then I’ll keep my distance, as I don’t need that in my life. Singular mistakes are very different from a pattern of behaviour. Liz has (trusting Sarah here) a demonstrated pattern of behaviour. Now, if she works hard enough to demonstrate a changed pattern (not just, *flash*, look it’s new Liz) then I might re-evaluate her.
But I’m a trash-heap dealing with manipulators and perjurers every other day. I’m a lil burnt out on humanity.
” When people show you who they are, believe them.”
–Maya Angelou
S.R.
But that’s not them being RUINED. That’s them being a jerk. Even if someone is a jerk for their entire life, that still doesn’t make them ruined. And someone being a jerk before they’re even in their 20s, before their brain is done developing, doesn’t mean much yet. Particularly not if they’re, say, freshly in a new environment, with new freedoms.
Jon Rich
“When someone persistently….”
That’s the thing, though. We don’t know how she normally treats people, because we’ve only seen her for a few hours of her life. This could be atypical for her, and in fact there are several indications that it is.
Felian
very goood take, i agree!
No one is ruined. people can be assholes at any point in time, and deserve criticism or people showing them their own boundaries by staying the hell away from the asshole person, but anyone can step up and work on themselves until they are decent.
I still have hope for the assholes in my life i’m currently not close to, but maybe one day they’ll live up to what i think they can become!
zee
Yep, we love moral puritanism in this house. You go, denying people room for growth or redemption, declaring people “ruined” as soon as they do something bad!
S.R.
Making a poor choice, or even many poor choices, doesn’t mean someone is “ruined”. That’s an incredibly harmful way to go at the world, expecting that nobody will ever make any sort of mistake, and declaring that if they do it’s permanently messed them up. That’s just… not how this works.
fireprincesslily
Yiiiiikes
You really Dan’d this up.
Yotomoe
I’m 27 and I still want my first time to be with someone I care about. I want it to be special, y’know? Maybe not love, but someone I’m really fond of.
The Wellerman
My feelings exactly!!! Totally with you on that one!
newlland(Henryvolt)
It would be good to atleast be somewhat found of them, atleast someone I want to remember.
The Wellerman
Yeah totally!
I know it’s really likely that I’m try it with a few people before I finally find that special someone, or even a polyamory if need be.
But I just really want the first one to be someone really memorable and special somehow, you know?
Rose by Any Other Name
My wife and I would love to get a poly thing going, but it’s hard to arrange. The best we’ve managed is some swinging with other couples and a few friends who we sometimes have sex with. And we haven’t been with anyone else since 2019 due to COVID.
Ah well. Maybe someday.
Yotomoe
I would be down to try that sorta thing but also I’ve been single my whole life so I’d absolutely be way too needy for that sorta thing. It’s a dynamic I’m fond of though haha.
Xenocide
Good luck! I imagine finding the right people who all work well together can be a challenge.
I was involved with a poly couple in that “friends who we sometimes have sex with” role a few years ago, they were looking for long term people to join but weren’t having much luck with it unfortunately.
Knuf Wons
First, think about how hard it is to find one person you really click with. Then think about how hard it would be to find another person that both of you really click with. You now understand the increasing complexity and difficulty of stable poly relationships. Or so I’ve been told 😛
Tenty
Exactly! Each new individual in a poly relationship increases the potential difficulty in maintaining the relationship as a whole exponentially as each new person has to fit with every person already there in ways that don’t break down when multiple people are interacting at once, but at the same time they also increase the potential joys of the relationship by significant margins.
Thulcandran
I hope this isn’t too intrusive, and it does depend on where you are geographically, but #Open is a pretty good app for that, or at least was last I checked. It’s gotten a little more Basic vs Premium, though.
Tenty
I would like to try poly at some point – evidence thus far leans towards poly but is ultimately inconclusive. My wife’s opinions on a lot of things have changed drastically over the time we’ve known each other (religious indoctrination is a hell of a drug, and when she moved out of her parent’s place she lost her ability to reliably attend church so all these concepts like sex toys, BDSM, trans, etc. have been beating against a steadily-weaker bastion of doctrine), and I’ve helped her figure out some tests she can do to gauge her position on a few things directly and indirectly related to poly. The ball is in her court on when and how thorough the tests are, although it’ll probably be a while before the metaphorical walls crumble enough for her to perform them.
I will note that these tests, on either side, do not involve cheating. We’ve additionally come to an explicit agreement on what constitutes cheating so there can be no semantic defense should one of us do so.
Geneseepaws
Hold onto that Idea, because it’s been a full half a century and I Still remember them, and miss them. Pick someone Carefully!
Samantha
I hope you get that. thats a really good goal and will make things better I bet
Yotomoe
There’s at least one girl I wanna have my first time with but since she lives in new york and it’s VIRUS TIME I’m not sure if that’s gonna work out in the near future. o3o And I’m not exactly hitting it off with any other eligible singles in the interim.
Ana Chronistic
The best policy is you should try to have your first time be with someone(s?) you care about, BUT don’t declare everything ruined forever if it’s bad or you broke up and now you hate that person(s?) and everything is terrible, bc honestly the first time with someone else is also amazing, especially if it’s enthusiastic consent!
…predictive text suggested “especially if it’s dysphoria” and that’s, uh… NOT great ?
The Wellerman
Awe great. Our phones have become sentient, and now they’re trying to unload their issues unto us.
The Wellerman
But also, wonderful advice Ana!
Wisdom to definitely take to heart!
Agemegos
It is a very common and respectable wish, and I wish you the best of luck with it. A lot of people feel the same, and it works out for some of them.
Which is not to say that people who want or settle for anything else are wrong in any way to do so, or that the romantic ideal of virgin sex with one’s one true soulmate is a more worthy ideal than any other.
Knuf Wons
I misread this as “I wish you the best of fuck” and I think that is strangely appropriate given the topic of the thread.
Keulen
I’d like to hope that I can have my first time be with someone I care about too.
Decidedly Orthogonal
Power to you, just… make sure _you_ have agency over your experience in that regard. Trusting it to be special because of the other person involved… well, it makes you vulnerable. Sex is like any other activity. We’re not very good at being a lover without practice. Now that carries the caveat that like any activity you can do it with your own good intentions and a good caring person, or with a selfish bossy jerk. But the amount of pressure society puts on a v-card is a religious hold-over from an era when women (oh so long ago /s) was only viewed as an object like sheep, a cow, or a chair.
adam Black
Its ALWAYS going to ber special, but usually for the wrong reasons.
Whats most important is someone respects you as human , honors your boundaries ( which you want to break ) and >>>HAS A GOOD SENSE of Humor<<<
In reality first times are usually not solemn affairs people hope, but Pretty ridiculous. Its not all Pretty and cute. There is a lot of unexpected body fluids. and Noises too. The movies never show pools of sweat. or unexpected queefing. Orgasms sucking the condom off your body and getting deep lost ( it happens ) ( or hysterical tears when that happens ) or unexpected periods. ( or just bleeding ) . but if both people have decent senses of humor it just becomes a series of very private shared jokes.
IMHO find someone you can laugh with and go for it.
adam Black
Rose by Any Other Name
My various virginities have gone in just about as many ways as such things can go.
Of my first time with another human, I have very mixed memories. On the one hand, it was playful and exploratory and actually went pretty well.
And on the other hand, she made me watch Grease 2. **shudders**
Roborat
Well said, I was going to post something similar, but you said it better.
S.R.
I mean, it’s the first time you’re doing a thing that’s fairly important to most people. It’s inherently at least a bit special. Pretty reasonable to want that multi-person thing to involve a person you like.
Rose by Any Other Name
Oh yeah. The idea that one can ruin oneself with sex is very sad.
Also, yes, so true. I think that ‘virginity is just something you haven’t done yet’ is a concept that I didn’t quite make clear when I talked about taking my own virginity some weeks (months now?) ago. I have had and lost many virginities in my life, and none of them left me with less – rather, I gained valuable experience and learned more about myself and my body.
That isn’t to say one’s first time isn’t important, but that can be said of the first time doing many things.
The Wellerman
You are so wise. That’s all I can say about what you wrote here.
Wise.
Rose by Any Other Name
@The Wellerman
That was a very kind thing to say. A little overwhelming actually, which is why I did not reply previously. I honestly wasn’t sure how to reply. My first attempts to make a joke came off as flip at best. Anyway, thank you. I am not often described as such and am honored that you feel so.
Agemegos
Two of my first times were grossly improper, and if what happened were proved then the other people involved would go to jail, even after all these decades.
But they didn’t ruin me. And any doctrine that asserts that they did can be damned.
Rose by Any Other Name
Age difference?
Technically that happened to me with my first girlfriend. I was a freshman, she was a senior (both in high school). The age difference would have been a problem if anyone realized were dating and not just friends.
Agemegos
Four years when I was eight; about twenty years when I was fifteen.
Fox
@Agemegos *Appropriate gesture of support* from a fellow survivor.
Agemegos
Thanks.
Fox
You’re very welcome.
Shadow Dreamer
*similar gestures at both of you*
Geneseepaws
Agemegos, You have my full respect, full respect for growing up to be who you are today.
Rose by Any Other Name
Yikes.
I would put that waaay past improper on their parts.
Agemegos
Context and circumstances matter, and framing and intent. Those would have been — and similar experiences usually are — much worse with a framing that I had done anything wrong or shameful, or with any sort of build-up or follow-through. As it happened, breaking my leg at eleven did me more lasting harm, because it happen when I had plucked my courage up to join other children in some exciting/dangerous play. Risky play may teach resilience if the falls &c. result in bumps and pains that you can learn don’t matter as much as you feared. It does the opposite when you break your leg.
So anyway — not good experiences, and certainly not useful learning opportunities, but not as bad as they sound and not nearly as bad as others have. I’m fine about those now.
Ana Chronistic
Wow. So sorry you had to deal with that ☹️
Agemegos
Thanks, but truly, for me, in the unusual circumstances in which those things happened, they weren’t as bad as missing a connecting flight at Melbourne airport when I was ten, and didn’t do as much damage as breaking my leg when I was eleven.
I think it helped that I was raised without the notion of sexual purity, and without an expectations that first times be special and have to be wonderful. But that’s not everything that went my way either.
Steelbright
@Agemegos, saying it that way has so much power.
Vinter Nacht
I just hope that Joe breaks that garbage myth for her. It’s totally respectable for her to want to wait until it’s with someone she loves.
It’s *garbage* to think that choosing to have sex ruins you. Joe seems to be a strangely appropriate person to break that to her.
HeySo
Historically, that social concept was developed to control women. By putting their entire value on how they relate to men, they could be restrained easily. There’s a few factors that go into that, but the fundamental one is that women are ruined socially, except to the person that took their virginity. This then locked the women into marriage (and forced marriage to a rapist, where valid), just as much as any other social or religious factors did. As those other influences lessened (thanks to feminism) the concept changed to become more focused on being romanticized, rather than being focused on punishment and censure.
Fundamentally, as Ana led us off with, there’s absolutely nothing to relate sexual virginity to any sort of “specialness” more than any other kind of virginity (eg, food). A woman (or man) isn’t ruined by it (barring in the sense of any kind of inhibitive physical trauma, as can occur when a child is forced into sex), as they can still function sexually- and non-sexually- just the same after. Beyond that, any other factors are the same as non-virginal sex: Rape is still traumatic, sex is still a mixed bag heavily reliant on circumstance, partner, and emotional/psychological elements, and so forth. Virginity is, frankly, not special. In fact, social illusions aside, the only special thing about virginity for a woman is in how willing and capable your partner is in handling your hymen (assuming you haven’t broken that naturally, and were born with one).
Any other kind of bad or good experience covers the same concepts as any other domain- you may regret ordering your first pizza from a crappy place, but neither you nor pizza are ruined because of that. Sure, you’ll have some hang-ups about it but, again, that’s just the same as any bad virginal experience. You can, however, regret that you put yourself into a needlessly painful experience, so that’s valid- but again, that has nothing to do with “purity”, “chastity”, or any other artificial concepts used solely for social influencing.
In short? Ew to all of it.
Eldritchy
STDs
Adept
Absolutely agreed with HeySo.
Virginity is a toxic concept, mostly used to control women.
TrueVCU
The programming is strong
TrueVCU
Lizard gravatar yesssssss
Dara
BEST GRAVATAR
Deanatay
That’s clearly an iguanatar.
Plain Marie
Yessss. Iguanatarrrr.
The Wellerman
Then she’ll just have to get stronger.
Hopefully with the support of that special someone she loves!
Johan
Well, that happened.
Lokitsu
And yet, it didn’t.
Grimey
Oh. This was…Like what happened to Joyce.
If she had chosen anyone else instead of Joe on this campus…
Grimey
I would like to qualify that I don’t mean this is exactly like the AWFUL thing that happened to Joyce but more put in a situation that she was not ready for at all. Except in Joyce’s case, a complete monster as opposed to…Joe.
KiaStirling
I interpret this moment as Joe thinks this is what would happen if he pursued Joyce right now. He’s going to triple down on trying to quash his crush now after having this reaction from Liz after making out. He 9000% doesn’t want to make Joyce feel that way (especially since he knows about The Incident) and this is absolutely going to convince him that this is a 1:1 of what it would be like if he and Joyce dated. And/or play further into breaking his complex “you can’t hurt people if there’s no strings attached” because he knows that there ARE guys on this campus who wouldn’t have immediately stopped.
Joe’s gonna grow up to be a better guy than his dad but wow is it coming with a lot of baggage and hopefully therapy. (though let’s be real, seeing Ethan it looks like campus therapists here are shit)
KiaStirling
oh fuck I’m liz now
Bleuryder
I don’t think campus therapists are shit (although, we all know in general they probably are.) Rather that instead of going to A therapist, Ethan has chosen the route of not seeking any therapy.
I also agree with you on Joe, and would like to add that I think this moment here is going to be a character growth moment for him for the better.
Deanatay
Hey it worked great for Amber no it really didn’t
Z
Honestly he’s probably not wrong. For all her rahh rahh atheist talk it takes a long time to undo that level of indoctrination. It’s not uncommon for people with this level of programming to have a bit of a mental breakdown after they get married because they still see sex as dirty and sinful and shameful and either can’t bring themselves to have it, or the loss ofnvirginity is felt so profoundly it actually does psychological damage.
Seriously abstinence only really fucks people up.
anonymsly
Oooof, I think you’re right, Kia. Maybe with a side of getting very protective with Joyce re: other guys, because maybe THEY won’t care whether Joyce feels this way. (Does Joe have any clue about Joyce and the party? I don’t remember.)