244

Recant
Posted on April 5, 2019 by David M Willis
FOUR DAYS LEFT! The Dumbing of Age Book 8 Kickstarter now includes FREE DOROTHY MAGNETS FOR NEARLY EVERYONE!  If you’re getting any combination of paper books mailed to you, you get a free Dorothy magnet.  If you’re getting the DIGITAL PLUS MAGNET tier, you get a free Dorothy magnet. It’s just the DIGITAL (PDF only) tiers that are sadly left out because, like, there is no envelope, I am sorry.  I can’t shove the magnet through the computer. You don't gotta add her to your PICK THREE or PICK FIVE MAGNETS tiers.  She's thrown in as a bonus.  You now get four and six magnets for those tiers, respectively.  And if you got COMPLETE MAGNET POWER, she's thrown on the big ol' pile.  

244 thoughts on “Recant”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    what about an apathetic god

    or a pathetic god (and his malevolent half brother)

    1. Doctor_Who

      Hey, there’s a perfectly good reason Loki has issues with Thor.

      1. Reltzik

        “BROTHER! I NEED THE THRONE!”

        1. chris2315

          Bröther may I have some öats?

      2. Deanatay

        M-Troll-nir?

    2. svata

      There’s also the option of “god doesn’t want to go throw a rock at the hornet’s nest” or “god is asleep”

      1. Handgunman

        “God is asleep” is just “god is busy sleeping”

        1. Slartibeast Button, BIA

          Sleeps beneath Ry’leyh until The Stars Are Right?

          Oops. Wrong god…

        2. Clif

          Why go with the lesser of two evils?

        3. Sunny

          Worship Cthulhu so that you may be eaten first!

        4. KSClaw

          vote Cthulhu 2020

        5. WeirderThanWeird

          Hey, he’d be better than the current president.

        6. Amazi-Stool

          So you did read Clif’s notes above on why he is current president!

      2. TachyonCode

        Personally I prefer “God got up from his desk, went for a walk and got hit by a car.”

        Or, “he fell into an isekai”.

        Actually, both is good.

        1. DarkoNeko

          Generally they become gods AFTER truck-kun, not before tho

      3. Ana Chronistic

        I was originally going to go with somniatheist but I didn’t figure anyone would get my reference

    3. StClair

      “Puny god.”

    4. Marsh Maryrose

      Joyce just needs some of that old time religion. (“I’m a Zarathustra booster, and it’s good enough for me!”)

      One of my favorite GOT quotes, from Tyrion: “The Lord of Light wants his enemies burned, the Drowned God wants them drowned. Why are all the gods such vicious congas?”

      1. Marsh Maryrose

        Just as I suspected, the Scongahorpe filter remains in place!

        1. chris2315

          I have no idea what word it is, but I’m gonna guess. Is it… conga?

        2. Slartibeast Button, BIA

          An extremely offensive term for a portion of female anatomy, often generalized into an epithet for a woman. The first letter is not changed by the filter, but the word is made slightly longer.

        3. Kaffeeteria

          Why do you use offensive female anatomy terms on male gods?

        4. Jhon

          Because we’re a bunch of … Wait, you wanted me to say that, didn’t you?

        5. Seregiel

          If I remember correctly, UK and a couple other places can use this term positively and as an endearment to their friends in certain context. Not what’s happening here, but it can be unisex in usage.

        6. Inahc

          Well, all gendered insults can be unisex in that way. When used against a woman, it insults their womanhood by implying it’s a bad thing; when used against a man, it insults their manhood by implying they’re more like a woman (which is of *course* a bad thing).

        7. Marsh Maryrose

          As I understand it, Brits employ that word mostly non-genderedly, and much more frequently than Americans do. As with all such words, the insult level depends on context, in this case ranging from casual teasing to heavy-handed dehumanization.

        8. chris2315

          So just to be clear, the actual word is conga?

        9. Marsh Maryrose

          There is a town in Lincolnshire, England which has an eponymous problem named after it in internet filtering circles. (There is a Wikipedia entry.) Paradoxically, forums like this both illustrate the problem, and prevent actually naming it. The name is pronounced “skun-thorp,” but the problem is the spelling: ess-cee-you-en-tee-aich-oh-ar-pee-ee, or S[cee-you-en-tee]horpe.

          The problem is, of course, the 2nd through 5th letters. In this forum, those four letters in sequence, whenever they appear, are replaced with the word “conga,” no matter where they appear in a word.

          In a related matter, I now unironically use the actual word “bongo” IRL, even.

        10. DrunkenNordmann

          Yeah, it’s a common problem with filters that they can’t distinguish between a word and a word that contains the letters for the first one within itself.

          I once got auto-banned by a word filter bot a Discord server because a verb I used contained the same letters within it as an ethnic slur.

    5. William Leonard Reese Jr.

      For some reason the idea of an Apathetic God has always made me more pissed then one that is actively Malevolent but answers their worshippers prayers.

  2. ValdVin

    For someone who only says he has mainly “academic” interest, Jacob is giving good advice here.

    1. Schpoonman

      Separating yourself emotionally from a subject can help your approach. Like when someone gives decent-to-good relationship advice but is perpetually single themselves.

      1. ValdVin

        I know you meant that in a benevolent and neutral manner but your gravatar doesn’t agree 🙂

        1. Schpoonman

          Well, look at your gravatar, getting all bothered and hot by Joyce’s temper.

        2. butts

          oh are we doing the “gravatars looking at each other” game

        3. Schpoonman

          Am I winning if I say I liked your last two Joyce booty gravatars (dancing and pizza date with Jacob and Dorothy) more than Billie?

          And I promise I’m not just saying that because Joyce is my favorite character. The dancing was very dynamic (Willis is easily my favorite artist) and I really really really like Joyce and Jacob.

        4. butts

          yeah i keep meaning to change it back but honestly i’m just waiting for a good Jacob or Ethan booty to use

          willis where you hiding the man-ass

        5. Schpoonman

          You’re a good person, butts.

          (I was scrolled down further and when I refreshed the page I did a little happy gasp when I saw you changed your gravatar. No, really, thanks for that)

        6. butts

          would a good person use the words “where you hiding the man-ass”

        7. Schpoonman

          Maybe. You still did something nice for a stranger, like Carla fixing up Joyce’s shower shoes.

        8. Jhon

          I wonder why you’ve ignored nekkid Ethan dream-butt all this time?

        9. ShinyNeen

          I must risk the chance of my self-drawn avatar ruining the game in order to point out that, any time the gravatar above yours is a face, it looks like that character is twisting exceptionally awkwardly and it is both strange and amusing
          : )

        10. butts

          you’re welcome

        11. Slartibeast Button, BIA

          Comic book cover anatomy?

        12. butts

          oh GOD i’m a walking Hawkeye Initiative

        13. Slartibeast Button, BIA

          Of course, now I’ve got Momo checking yours out in an unsettling manner.

        14. moon

          🙂

        15. ValdVin

          Hey, if we’re doing that, the blushing Becky would certainly notice yours.

        16. ValdVin

          Ah, I’m guilty as charged.

    2. Evan

      People who are religious are often quite morally invested in God’s existence. If there is no God, than death is the end to it all and existence is finite, which is a terribly frightening concept to accept when you’re used to considering something else. Worse yet, if God is malevolent, what are they supposed to do? Within their framework, he’s also all powerful, and can quite easily send you to suffer eternally if he doesn’t like what you’re doing.

      Hell is equally scary as oblivion for many people. And the best clue they have to avoid it is the bible, so for many the solution is to follow it as closely as they can (or at least as close as they can interpret) and justify to themselves that it’s moral to do so.

      It’s a very might makes right notion, but it’s hard to say it isn’t motivational for a lot of people.

      Personally I tend to take it backwards. Start with the notion that if there is a God, start at the core principles. For most major religions, that’s essentially to be moral. So be moral, in as best a way as you can figure out (and religious texts can be helpful for that, but so can most moral philosophers.) if there is a God and he likes that, well hot-dog you’re going to heaven. If there is a God and he doesn’t like that, well I guess you can send me to hell because I’m not worshiping an asshole just cause he’s powerful. If there’s an apathetic God, or no God, well then oblivion’ll probably suck but at least you can say you helped people during your life, and we as humans are usually conditioned to be happy when we help others thanks to social evolution, so that’s still a win at least.

      1. butts

        I can attest to the fact that the finiteness of existence is a terribly frightening concept even if you’ve never believed anything else.

        1. ditrysia

          Yes, but at the same time I’ve always found the idea of eternal life equally as terrifying. Can you imagine going on and on and on literally forever until time itself has no meaning?

          Both the idea of a finite and an infinite existence terrify me.

        2. butts

          Existence Is Inscrutabllllllllllllllllllle

        3. ShinyNeen

          Maybe it’s because I’ve always struggled a lot with the inevitability of death but, like… eternity sounds fine to me! At least that way I’d be able to exhaustively determine if there’s any solution to the “inevitably go mad from the unending nature of it all” problem.

          Though I’ve only really had the “eternal existence is also bad” scenario posited to me by someone I strongly dislike, so I could be missing some pieces of the picture.

        4. Clif

          Eternity is a long time to be bored. I prefer the indefinitely long option myself.

        5. StClair

          Once you hit the proton decay era, there’s not a lot to look forward to.

        6. Inahc

          Black Mirror did a good job of convincing me that I don’t want to upload my brain to the cloud. :/

          My main issue with oblivion is not getting to see what happens next. Immortality, though… It really would depend on the terms. Infinite time means infinite chances for things to go terribly, horribly wrong, but with enough OP powers, a cure for sensory issues, and the ability to revoke my own immortality at will, then I might be tempted…

        7. ditrysia

          Listen I find existence hard enough to bear as it is, I’m not looking to end it prematurely but it’s not like I’m looking forward to it going on forever, either.

        8. TachyonCode

          The “inevitably go mad from the unending nature of it all” problem is just a plot device in fiction anyway, and I think it mostly exists because of religion positioning it (intentionally or not) as a moral rationale for mortality.

          I don’t think there’s actually any inevitability to it – it depends on your psychological profile and your attitude towards life.

          Seriously, there are so many people – if you’re trying to tell me that god banned every single one of us throughout history from immortality “as we are” because we’d go nuts from dealing with the ramifications, then either god’s plan for eternity exclusively involves patching some of us with whatever changes the afterlife brings, and our world is a huge waste of time for anyone chosen for oblivion (and god is a sadist for not just fixing us all, right now)…

          Orrr, there’s no afterlife and god’s even more of a sadist because of how much suffering mortality causes for each subsequent living person who outlives someone else.

          I admit, that’s assuming immortality was ever an option, and that Occam’s Razor applies at all to theories for the moralizing of mortality, to limit the scope of god’s inscrutable plan.

          I still think if he ever had a plan, he got hit by a bus and now it doesn’t matter.

        9. begbert2

          Whereas I’m entirely cool with the concept of oblivion – it won’t hurt, it won’t be sad, it won’t be boring, it won’t be anything. I won’t even miss the things I left behind or worry about things unfinished! It’ll just be off switch flipped; the end. No problems whatsoever.

          I’m so comfortable with it, in fact, that now and then I have to remind myself why I bother living at all. The things I might miss have no power… remember self, it would be morally wrong to make my surviving family sad, it would be rude to leave a corpse for my apartment manager, and most ways of achieving oblivion hurt. So don’t. Yep, that’s got it, I’m good for another week or ten.

          Of course if I wasn’t an atheist death would be terrifying. Both eternal hell and interminable heaven are way worse fates than oblivion.

        10. Xenocide

          Most methods of achieving it would also leave a mess, and regardless of that whoever discovers what is left behind may well be scarred for life.

          Just a few other helpful pointers I’ve considered when thinking along those same lines!

          Also, agreed, do not want eternal life after death thanks.

        11. Mel

          Sounds like you accidentally Buddhist enlightenment

        12. thejeff

          Heaven is supposed to hand-wave that problem away by being heavenly. Even if we don’t understand how from our limited mortal perspective. You won’t be bored. You won’t be unhappy. You will actually enjoy the entire eternity.

          Or so the theory goes.

        13. begbert2

          Drugs, presumably. Happiness injected directly into your brain. Mindless happiness with no particular cause or source beyond “Hey, I’m in heaven! Still! And it makes me happy! I’m happy because I’m happy!”

          Heroin on the harp strings, don’t you doubt it.

        14. TachyonCode

          You don’t need theism to suspect that non-incarnation might equal eternal pain.

          And that’s why I don’t like reality any more than theology. Not enough information to study.

        15. begbert2

          Not non-incarnation; oblivion. That’s the awesomeness of materialism; we *know* that when you shoot a computer with a .44, it simply and completely stops working. Processing ends completely. There’s no eternal pain because there’s nothing to experience the eternal pain, just insensate parts left behind. Simple as that.

      2. thejeff

        You’re in good and ancient company.

        “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” — Marcus Aurelius

        1. TachyonCode

          And then there’s Epicurus’ trilemma, as summarized by Hume:

          If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful.
          If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
          If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?

      3. jmsr7

        ” I’m not worshiping an asshole just cause he’s powerful. ”

        Best line evar! I’m totally gonna use that next time i get into a discussion with anyone who believes in hell.

    3. Jamie

      TBH, as someone who’s academically-oriented and has ended up giving out a lot of solicited advice during amateur ad-hoc therapy sessions, there’s genuinely a lot of value in breaking down a situation for someone else so that they can handle it in bitesize chunks rather than be forced to face the enormity of the question at once.

      It’s not the right approach for everyone, and it’s not the right approach for every moment, but it’s a valid approach and can definitely be effective.

      That’s basically what Jacob did here. Joyce’s problem is, “God isn’t talking to me; what could that mean!?” so Jacob lays out a finite, understandable set of bullet point hypotheses. Strictly academically, he’s hilariously 100% wrong. Emotionally, hopefully he’ll be able to affirm Joyce’s faith in herself.

  3. butts

    that’s pretty much what a jew would say, yeah

    1. butts

      …and by that i mean it’s what i, specifically, would say

      because hey that sentence wouldn’t read great coming from a goy

      1. not someone else

        That awkward feeling when you realize you accidentally said something problematic about yourself.

        Seriously though I feel like Ethan’s comment is really useful to have here and helps put things into perspective for Joyce about just how much she has to rethink. That sort of thing helps at least some people with the nightmares, realizing the sheer scope of options there are even among things her churches would have felt awkward saying are invalid.

      2. Rogue

        Honestly yes. ~Your fellow Jew

    2. Deanatay

      God WOULD smite humanity, if humanity weren’t offering up a torrent of bingeable shows to distract him?

      “I’ll smite those miserable bastards… after I catch up on Game of Thrones. And The Good Place. And re-watch The West Wing – damn, Sorkin’s a genius! And…”

  4. Rosicrucian

    At some point Joyce needs to meet the Dumbing of Age version of Shortpacked! Jesus.

    Of course with nothing paranormal or supernatural, he’d be Jesus Sanchez, and work down at the bowling alley or something.

    1. Doctor_Who

      Could always appear in her dreams.

      Unless that really WAS Rich Mullins, and he’s become some sort of Freddy Krueger-esque dream stalker after death.

      1. Unusually Angry Hippie

        A really NICE Freddy Kreuger-esque dream-stalker.

  5. Schpoonman

    Jacob’s options still notably lack the Christian ideal of an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god. Ironically, Ethan’s line works better.

    1. butts

      funny how theodicy manages to sneak its way into any discussion about christianity, isn’t it

      1. Schpoonman

        A lot of non-western religions have canonical assholes for their pantheon. Blame the early Christian Church for teeing themselves up for this question when one of the core tenets is “God loves EVERYONE equally, including all the people he is now explicitly letting be brutally murdered.”

        1. BigDogLittleCat

          It’s those “mysterious ways,” ya know.

        2. Schpoonman

          Yahweh can still have two of the three! Frankly, any one of them is still pretty sweet on the cosmological scale.

        3. butts

          yeah i mean we don’t have that problem because the Torah pretty well establishes that god is just kind of a dick

        4. BBCC

          As a Jewish friend of mine put it, ‘We have three relationships with God at the same time – like a parent, like a spouse and That Fucker’.

        5. butts

          ’tis true, we kvetch because we care

        6. huttj509

          One of my favorite parts of the Talmud involves Rabbi Eliezer, in a debate with 3 other rabbis about how to apply the law. Eventually the voice of G-d comes out of the heavens and says Eliezer is correct and the response is pretty much “butt out, we’re talking here, you gave the law to us and we’re the ones who need to figure out how to actually apply it here where people actually have issues to resolve and are looking for decisions.”

    2. BBCC

      I’ve never been able to make the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent god work in my head either. I think Jacob’s probably not THAT steeped in doctrine to the point of all the deep philosophical problems – he strikes me as someone who appreciates the rituals and got the general message ‘don’t be a jackass’ but not so much beyond that.

      1. Schpoonman

        For a mostly non-denominational Baptist church, the idea that God had to work through me to save me, that I could not make the change on my own, was pounded into my head from a very early age. It ironically did some of the most damage once I started pushing into adolescence.

        “Hey, if all this horrible shit has happened throughout human history and will likely continue until Jesus literally descends from heaven, does God really love us? Why would he ever let his creation be exposed to mustard gas?”

        “It’s just God’s plan for the world, sweetie.”

        *to myself* “Yeah, no, fuck that.”

        1. Kat

          In my humble former Christian opinion, this is the idea that does the most damage to Christianity as a belief. The concept of “God Vs. Free Will”. If I am so saturated with Original Sin as that doctrine holds that I can’t do anything pure on my own, how can I actually be judged for this by someone who is supposed to be good? Southern Baptist Doctrines of the “All Knowing” god that border on Predestination only make it worse. That combined with a few other, more personal issues (one of which is very similar to what Joyce is experiencing in this comic), led to me deciding to break away from Christianity as a belief structure.

        2. TachyonCode

          I had that problem. And simultaneously, when I found out about early Christian schisms and the council of Nicea, I kinda researched more into Judaism and its concept of Christ as a philosophical ideal human rather than as any of the roles Christianity assigned via the Messianic principle (or even as the biblical Jesus).

          Basically, it struck me that religion as the Abrahamics built it was just a tool to manipulate people and condition them to a certain model of civilization. Not useless, not evil, but definitely flawed.

        3. Dave

          The idea of a messiah at all didn’t come about until the Romans moved in. You won’t find a word about it in the Torah. The messiah is a POLITICAL savior, nothing more, nothing less.

          Judaism has no room for a “philosophical ideal human” because ALL Jews are supposed to live as philosophical ideal humans, as an example to others. A kingdom of priests; a holy nation. Chosen for the role; to be born a Jew is to be born into that responsibility. It’s why there are specific written rules for how to accommodate non-Jews who don’t HAVE to live as Jews do.

        4. BBCC

          Also, even as a political saviour, Jesus doesn’t match the Jewish criteria, as I understand, so he really does not fit.

        5. jmsr7

          Well, yeah. There’s a reason why the Jews rejected Jesus.

        6. Dave

          Because he died? I mean, that’s the reason why. The messiah was supposed to kick the Romans out and reestablish the line of David and that’s hard to do when you’re dead.

          Jesus wasn’t the only would-be messiah the Romans sentenced to death; they had a vested interest in putting down would-be revolutionaries. Hell, he wasn’t even the only executed messiah candidate to have a small cult who still believed he was the messiah after his death. Oily Josh just happened to luck out (well okay, not luck; a guy you might’ve heard of by the name of SaulPaul had a lot to do with that).

        7. Seregiel

          Yeah, going through the big three in their own religious perspectives and trying to accept them as all the same God makes for a very erratic visage. Add in modern movements/ denominations/ branches and it’s a (w)Holy nightmare.

      2. Marsh Maryrose

        “A man got religion, and asked the priest what he must do to be worthy of his new estate. The priest said, ‘Imitate our Father in Heaven, learn to be like him.’ The man studied his Bible diligently and thoroughly and understandingly, and then with prayers for heavenly guidance instituted his imitations. He tricked his wife into falling downstairs, and she broke her back and became a paralytic for life; he betrayed his brother into the hands of a sharper, who robbed him of his all and landed him in the almshouse; he inoculated one son with hookworms, another with the sleeping sickness, another with gonorrhea; he furnished one daughter with scarlet fever and ushered her into her teens deaf, dumb, and blind for life; and after helping a rascal seduce the remaining one, he closed his doors against her and she died in a brothel cursing him. Then he reported to the priest, who said that that was no way to imitate his Father in Heaven. The convert asked wherein he had failed, but the priest changed the subject and inquired what kind of weather he was having, up his way.”

        –Mark Twain, Letters From the Earth

        1. Uly

          Man, you can never beat Twain.

      3. BigDogLittleCat

        You can’t make it work because it doesn’t work.
        The only way to make such a god possible with our lived experience is to redefine the words so they bear no resemblance to their actual meaning.

        That’s where “mysterious ways” and “God’s plan” and “can’t know the mind of God” come in. That’s Christianese for ‘stop asking awkward questions.’

      4. Seregiel

        Jacob probably takes the line that approximates to “the kingdom of heaven is here/near but not yet fully realized” to mean we would be living in a relative paradise if humanity could collectively pull our heads out of our butts. The recipe: Try to do good, a sprinkle of empathy, a dash of optimism and hard work. Add God to taste… I’m guessing Jacob is in the God is a Watchmaker camp.

    3. Pylgrim

      I feel as though that option is still possible if we discount the modern expectations of a butler-like God who promptly responds before you have finished saying “God”. A God who answers would be a God that necessitates no faith to believe in.

      1. Schpoonman

        That still just taking the agency out of the equation, good and bad. If I do good, that’s just God working through me, I’m still meat for the machine. On the other hand, if I hurt someone, whatever, it was God’s plan.

        If he actually opened up a cloud once in a while and said “Dude, that’s fucked up,” then the idea would hold a little more clout. As it is, it’s unverifiable and what we’re left with is our actions and their consequences.

        I understand that faith in a higher power has led to comfort for some people in hard times and as a rallying cry for some really good things that have been brought into the world, but for the most part in my experience it’s served as a vehicle for a lot of pain and suffering.

        1. pizza2004

          I never comment here basically ever (maybe once or twice in the years I’ve been around) but I’m not entirely sure where you’re coming from.

          I think you’re talking from just one particular Christian belief? I know that being raise a Mormon we don’t believe in the idea of Original Sin being an issue, per se. Namely, the plan was for us to come to earth and get bodies, but God couldn’t make us fallen in and of himself, so he had to let Adam and Eve be tricked into it before humanity could begin. Since he knew it would happen and it was part of the plan and he made a way for everyone to be redeemed it’s not /that/ problematic (not that I actually agree, since that’s super weird).

          In Mormonism I’ve never heard the idea that our good actions come from God. In fact, they basically teach you that unless God appears to you or sends a pillar or light or something he’s not doing anything super personal. The Holy Ghost and Jesus are both probably more active in interacting with Earth. In fact, the holy trinity as one being is not a belief, /and/ Mormonism teaches that it was Jesus and not God who was active during the Old Testament. So you could in a sense see it as he changed after he came to Earth and got a body and that’s why we don’t see Old Testament stuff happening anymore.

          Mormonism can sorta be boiled down to a belief system where we’re born as spirits to a heavenly mother and father, we grew as much as we could, and then God devised a method by which we could get bodies like he has and grow more. In a sense Earth is like cosmic teenage hood. We’ve been stripped of our memories and we’re expected to learn what we can and figure out how to think critically about the world around us, but also how to accept that sometimes there are things that we can feel but can’t empirically prove (again, I don’t like this a ton either).

          Basically, faith relies on the fact that reality seems different to every person, and memories aren’t shared, so no matter what if one person sees something another person can’t know that it’s true because someone else saw it, they can only trust. You can’t empirically prove that there is a God or that there isn’t because either would remove the aspect of faith. It all makes a sort of sense but it’s kinda stupid anyway.

          The idea that there is an eternity after death and our actions here are small and in many ways insignificant to the overall reality is the big thing though. In a sense it’s like when you let your kid fall off their bike and get a little hurt (like, not actual wounds, just some pain) so they learn that they don’t want to do that. Sometimes as a parent you have to step back for a lesson to be effective, even if it hurts.

          Now, all that said, we don’t really know much of anything about what God is really like. And nothing is every really said about our Heavenly mother (supposedly it’s to keep her from being disrespected), but I’m just relaying my understanding of stuff having grown up in it for two decades.

          As for the subject of how God can be all knowing but also allow for free will, the best way that I can explain it is that God knows all possible futures and possible actions but not which we’ll take. Nobody is destined to do anything specific although some people have been ordained to be able to do things if they live their life here properly. God doesn’t know /the/ future, he knows /every possible/ future, basically.

          This is why I find it funny and sad when I see how Joyce looks at the only LDS character in the comic, because as much as I don’t agree with any religion in particular, I do know that growing up there was a lot of emphasis in the teachings of the church to study, pray, and come to your own personal conclusions about scriptures and stuff, which included a heavy emphasis on critical thinking and figuring out for yourself the meaning of stuff.

        2. Schpoonman

          I am, and you’re right that it’s coloring my response. That being said, the Mormon god still sounds very different from the Yahweh with whom I (and Joyce) grew up.

      2. Jamie

        I’ve been convinced for the last fifteen years that most people confuse God with Santa Claus.

      3. 3oranges

        Saying God can’t do stuff because then he wouldn’t take faith to believe in doesn’t go well with a religion where God repeatedly did things to prove himself to people, though.

        1. thejeff

          But only back then in distant past. Not now., Those primitive people needed to be shown miracles. We must have faith.

      4. BBCC

        No, it doesn’t and it’s entirely due to the problem of people hurting others.

        If god knows about and can intervene but wasn’t there, he’s not omnipresent.

        If god knows about it and is there, but can’t intervene, he’s not omnipotent.

        If god is there and can intervene, but doesn’t know about it, he’s not omniscient.

        If god is there, knows about it and can intervene and chooses not to, God is evil.

  6. BBCC

    I mean, yeah, God’s busy with a Bob’s Burger binge and getting hyped for Avengers: Endgame and he’s been watching Brooklyn 99 with Jesus because it’s important to bond with the kids. Now unless you need immediate smiting or he has something interesting to add to your revelations, buzz off, you’re clogging up the line.

    1. ShinyNeen

      Surely even God needs a couch-buddy from time to time!

      1. Regalli

        Aslan’s gonna hang out as soon as he catches that bus.

        (It’s never coming.)

        1. BigDogLittleCat

          Nice mix of literary references!

        2. butts

          yes, that literary masterpiece, Shortpacked!

        3. Regalli

          All taken from Shortpacked gags, actually.

          https://shortpacked.com/comic/dawn-treader

  7. Stephen Bierce

    Oh dear, somebody broke my copies of the songs “One of Us” and “Dear Mister Jesus”. I guess I’ll need to play something else.
    *Cues up Supertramp’s “Logical Song” for the hacked Muzak*

    1. ValdVin

      Which One of Us? Joyce hasn’t hit the ABBA version yet.

    2. Seregiel

      So I really want to know…. do you keep track of all your suggestions? Because I don’t think I’ve read a duplicate before!

      1. Stephen Bierce

        I used to. But sometimes I have to pull out some reruns. No law against it.

        1. Stephen Bierce

          My tracking list from FIVE YEARS AGO (and I’m sure I’ve added scores of other songs SINCE):
          Disqus Fever Playlist
          * God’s Great Banana Skin (Chris Rea)
          * She Got The Gold Mine, I Got The Shaft (Jerry Reed)
          * Losing My Religion (R.E.M.)
          * Leaving New York (R.E.M.)
          * Superfly Guy (S-Express)
          * Home By The Sea (Genesis)
          * Shock The Monkey (Peter Gabriel)
          * Biko (Peter Gabriel)
          * Most Beautiful Girl In The Room (Flight of the Conchords)
          * Little Miss Dangerous (Ted Nugent)
          * Cat Scratch Fever (Ted Nugent)
          * The Theme To “Charlie’s Angels”
          * Sixes & Sevens (Robert Plant)
          * Real Wild Child (Iggy Pop)
          * Snow Blind (Styx)
          * Have A Cigar (Pink Floyd)
          * Institutionalized (Suicidal Tendencies)
          * De Doo Doo Doo De Daa Daa Daa (The Police)
          * Shame (The Motels)
          * That’s The Way I’ve Always Heard It Should Be (Carly Simon)
          * Pony Swag (Swagberg featuring Maros)
          * Ain’t Nobody (Rufus featuring Shaka Khan)
          * Miss You (The Rolling Stones)
          * Constant Cravings (k.d. lang)
          * Run For Your Life (The Beatles)
          * Paper Doll (Fleetwood Mac)
          * I Saw The Sign (Ace of Base)
          * Still In Hollywood (Concrete Blonde)
          * Father Figure (George Michael)
          * West End Girls (The Pet Shop Boys)
          * Suburbia (The Pet Shop Boys)
          * Walk Away (The James Gang)
          * Real Love (The Doobie Brothers)
          * Waitin’ For The Bus (ZZ Top)
          * Cwm Rhondda/Bread of Heaven/Guide Me Thou [old hymn, look for a choral version]
          * Ambitious (Jeff Beck)
          * Zor & Zam (The Monkees)
          * Remember (Walkin’ In The Sand) (The Shangri-Las)
          * Nouns (Schoolhouse Rock)
          * All You Zombies (The Hooters)
          * My Favorite Mistake (Sheryl Crow)
          * Boy In The Bubble (Paul Simon)
          * The Boy With The Thorn In His Side (The Smiths)
          * Rocky Mountain High (John Denver)
          * The Power of Love (Huey Lewis & The News)
          * Magic (Olivia Newton-John)
          * Magic (The Cars)
          * Black Magic Woman/Gypsy Queen (Santana)
          * Driven To Tears (The Police)
          * Legs (ZZ Top)
          * It Ain’t Necessarily So (from “Porgy & Bess”)
          * Celebration (Kool & The Gang)
          * Everybody Have Fun Tonight (Wang Chung)
          * Take The Long Way Home (Supertramp)
          * Grease Is The Word (Frankie Valli)
          * Who’s Johnny? (DeBarge)
          * London Calling (The Clash)
          * Bohemian Rhapsody (Queen)
          * Ride of the Valkyries (from “Die Walkure”)
          * the Russian peasant dance (from “Alexander Nevsky”)
          * Not Enough Love In The World (Don Henley)
          * Masterblaster (Stevie Wonder)
          * She Blinded Me With Science (Thomas Dolby)
          * How Much I Feel (Ambrosia)
          * Brass In Pocket (The Pretenders)
          * Good Times (Chic)
          * The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels of Steel (Grandmaster Flash)
          * Ain’t No Mountain High Enough (Diana Ross)
          * Everybody’s Talkin’ (Harry Nilsson)
          * Beautiful Day (U2)
          * Some People (from “Gypsy”)
          * Suicide Is Painless (from “M*A*S*H”)
          * Earth Girls Are Easy (Julie Brown)
          * Springtime For Hitler (from “The Producers”)
          * Plastic People (Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention)
          * Hand To Hold Onto (John Cougar Mellenkamp)
          * Ain’t Even Done With The Night (John Cougar Mellenkamp)
          * Sausalito Summer Night (Diesel)
          * Green (from “The Wiz”)
          * Spies Like Us (Paul McCartney)
          * Running On Empty (Jackson Browne)
          * Human Nature (Michael Jackson)
          * Baby You Can Drive My Car (The Beatles)
          * Loverboy (Billy Ocean)
          * Sucker MCs (Run-DMC)
          * Goin’ Down (Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band)
          * Hello Again (The Cars)
          * Family Man (Hall & Oates)
          * Hotter Than a Two-Dollar Pistol (George Jones)
          * The Bells of Hell [old Air Force ditty]
          * 57 Channels (Bruce Springsteen)
          * end theme from “Frazier”
          * I Am I Said (Neil Diamond)
          * Goodnight Saigon (Billy Joel)
          * How I Hate The Night (Marvin The Paranoid Android)
          * Some Like It Hot (The Power Station)
          * Gimme Choco (Babymetal)
          * Roxanne (The Police)
          * We Said Hello, Goodbye (Phil Collins)
          * I Want What I Want When I Want It (from “The Student Prince”)
          * Life On Mars (David Bowie)
          * I’d Love To Change The World (Ten Years After)
          * Man On The Moon (R.E.M.)
          * You Belong To Me (Carly Simon)
          * If I Can’t Have You (Yvonne Elliman)
          * Singing In The Rain (from “Singing In The Rain”)
          * Orange Crush (R.E.M.)

        2. Seregiel

          Okay, that’s still pretty impressive and more so that you still have it. You’re doing the Lord’s work… or you know, not. Joyce’s higher authority isn’t in right now, please leave a message at the cloud. Beep!

        3. Knightsky

          *sneaks ‘God’s Away On Business’ by Tom Waits into the hacked Muzak for today’s strip*

  8. BrotherFlounder

    This is giving me a lot of feelings. I’m glad to see you/Joyce exploring this. I have. I’m not sure I’m ready to deal with these questions again at midnight. Did I feel God? Did I feel something? Does it matter what it was I felt? Did he stop? Was it me that changed, or was it God? Did I move past the concept in my philosophy or did I do something that removed a connection?

    1. Slartibeast Button, BIA

      Was I careful to get informed consent before feeling God?

  9. Michael Lanting

    Gosh, I’m not the only one who liked Enterprise?

  10. Cholma

    Thanks, Alt-Text! I’ve now got “Faith of the Heart” running thru my head. Good thing I like that song! 🙂

  11. DarkoNeko

    Hmm, pillar of fire

  12. DailyBrad

    Jacob’s a really good egg, and so it happens, so is Joyce.
    I normally attribute Ethan’s joke-making as him trying to defuse situations to not confront them, but this feels like an appropriate contribution to the conversation.

    1. Schpoonman

      Ethan is a fantastic example of how a likable well-rounded character can still be really fucking boring. (I apologize to everyone who loves Ethan)

      You’re absolutely right, this is defusing an uncomfortable situation but still appropriate and reassuring for Joyce.

      1. Piotr W

        Really? Personally, I really like Ethan?

        1. Schpoonman

          I don’t dislike him or hate him by any stretch, if it makes you feel any better.

  13. abysswatcher1993

    Ethan speaks truth. The Problem of Evil applies to Christianity and Deism, but in other religions God isn’t always related to good and evil. Greek gods are hedonistic sociopaths, Nordic gods are warmongering determinators, Japanese gods are always angry and can unleash horror movie kind of curses, Aztec gods have a thing for blood, and there are many religions with horrible ideas. I think I will stick with Kurzgesagt’s optimistic nihilism and play nintendo with my friends.

    1. Piotr W

      But that begs the question: if gods aren’t benevolent and perfect, why worship them?

      1. Skater Girl

        The same reason you placate any armed sociopath

      2. Wizard

        Because they’re slightly less likely to smite you if you kiss their divine ass.

      3. Jamie

        Worship is primarily a Christian concept. In every other religion I can think of, there are two variations:

        1) You are respectful in the same way you are respectful of a monarch or a badass warrior; they will mess you up otherwise; or
        2) You observe correct ritual behavior because correct behavior is correct for its own sake and this orderliness is crucial to the rightness of the world.

        There’s often a mix of the two, because it gets circular: the ritual is just how you act respectfully, and profaning the ritual is disrespectful. The idea that the ritual is an adulation comes out of the fact that Christian rituals generally start from gratitude for Christ’s death. Exaltation of majesty comes out of European music and arts being patronaged by monarchs who wanted to look glorious and CCM later sort of just borrowed that attitude.

        1. thejeff

          Islam as well, from what I understand.
          But yeah, the origins of religion are more in the “gods have power over us and the world and they want certain things from us so they’ll either help us out or at least avert their wrath”.
          Even the early Jewish monotheistic version was more like “God is King of the World and so we need to obey Him and He’ll reward us” than like more modern conceptions. A lot of the troubles in modern Christianity come from taking stuff written in the Bible from a very different viewpoint and reading it from a modern one.

        2. Dave

          Jamie? THANK you. Like holy shit it was EXHAUSTING scrolling through this page seeing all the takes about Judaism and other faiths from people who were pretty obviously applying a Christian mindset and philosophy. I just hope the rest of the page remembers this. :\

        3. Seregiel

          In a broader scope, it’s mostly monotheistic too.

          To be fair, I don’t think all of the commenters are coming from that mindset, even if they are applying it. I think a good amount are extrapolating about the mindsets of the Christians in quandary, which means their conclusions are framed by those limitations.

  14. Kravis

    Willis, you’re still hoping for a revival of Enterprise?

    I see you’re a man who was has… Faith of the Heart.

    1. Regalli

      A running gag in Shortpacked was that the God wanted another season of Enterprise and was pissed it hadn’t happened yet. Also that the Palisades line of Muppet action figures ended. In fairness, same.

  15. ian livs

    The second and third panels are really real to me right now. My spouse and I just had that conversation not too long ago (around the time Joyce had the dream, but my work schedule’s weird rn so I have no sense of time’s passage).

    Honestly, there’s something really meaningful about recognizing that your answer to “if you found out that was true, would you change back?” is “no.” Like I see it as 3 options too: either God isn’t real, he’s cruel and therefore not worth worshiping, or if he’s really good then he’ll value your choice to love people *now* instead of following laws written for a different civilization thousands of years ago.

    I know I say this a lot, but Joyce really is growing up so fast. Her worldview is changing rapidly, and sure, she struggles with it and sometimes slips up, but she’s made a lot of progress. Is this what a proud parent feels like??

    1. Seregiel

      I’d like to say how nice it is to hear about significant others being supportive in this type of growth. Don’t get me wrong, they should! But so often you hear about the other partner “talking them down from a crisis of faith” versus embracing where they are and helping with the process of finding answers; whether it affirms it or nit. I’m so glad you have this support structure and it’s lovely to hear about.

      1. ian livs

        Aww, thanks! I’ll admit, I haven’t yet told him exactly how extensive my faith crisis is (just because I know his faith is still fairly strong and it’s one of the things that keeps him going, and I’d hate to shake that), but I *am* slowly building up to it, and I feel like we’ll be able to have a calm, rational conversation about it, so it’ll be good. 🙂

  16. Reltzik

    Willis, it takes 20-40 years for tv and movies to start doing reboots and remakes. You can start getting your hopes up for more Enterprise in another 6 years…. though realistically the TNG reboot will come first.

    1. Daisy

      Tell that to the DCCU!

      1. Reltzik

        Look, if I got the opportunity to tell anything to the DC movie people, I’d have far more colorful things to say and that wouldn’t be something I’d waste the opportunity on. (Even though they do really need to hear it.)

      2. timemonkey

        Or Spider-Man.

        1. Reltzik

          Sony’s already learned the hard way that rebooting the same 3 franchises over and over again isn’t a great business model.

  17. Slartibeast Button, BIA

    “Your prayer is important to us. Please stay in the [sect_specific_holy_place_designator] and your prayer will be answered in the order it was received.”

    “Of course, since God exists outside of time, ‘order’ can be a bit of a tricky concept here…”

    1. Schpoonman

      I cook for a living, so the concept of my kitchen existing outside of time, giving me effectively infinite time to perfectly craft each order has popped into my head before, and I apologize for riffing on this way further than you may have ever intended.

      So, when you exist outside of time, how does that work when you interact with a “normal” flow? Can I cook 10,000 steaks all at once (or over the course of a few “days” with a very large grill, I guess), each one freezing in time at the moment of medium-rare perfection, and then distribute them as needed? One in 1858, five in 2019, and 3 in 4295? Is it like the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, where in the time it takes the wait staff to walk from a terminal to the kitchen order window, I’ll have had enough time to cook a full table of food?

      Help me out here.

      1. Slartibeast Button, BIA

        You seem to be working from an assumption of a separate kind of time track perpendicular time, like Asimov’s “physio-time” in The End Of Eternity. Sort of like normal time is south to north and physio-time is west to east. So as physio-time progresses more and more steaks get cooked and distributed, but to any north-south coordinate. So the northwest and southwest quadrants are beef-deprived, while the northeast and southeast quadrants partake of increasing levels of beefy goodness.

      2. Delicious Taffy

        You have to detach your heart from your body, then send it to a point in your personal timeline, for starters.

    2. Marsh Maryrose

      Angels soaring through the air
      As they did in Bethlehem
      Angels answer every prayer
      Once they get around to them
      Please be patient
      An angel will be with thee
      Shortly.

    3. Annamal

      Since no-one seems to have linked to it.

      The Colbert report’s Christmas special had “please be patient”
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_ZCxgp1eBQ

      1. Marsh Maryrose

        As sung by Feist!

        Peak Colbert Report Era was Toby Keith joining Stephen, Elvis Costello, Willie Nelson, John Legend, and Feist on “What’s So Funny ‘Bout Peace Love, and Understanding.”

  18. Reltzik

    Also, is it just me, or is that look on Panel 5 Joyce’s face the realization that she might be in a much deeper and humble conversation about God than she’s ever been in in her entire life, and it involves jokes about God like TV, and that’s pretty cool?

    … dammit it’s just me isn’t it.

    1. butts

      i’m pretty sure that look on Panel 5 Joyce’s face is 😐

  19. vlademir1

    I find I rather enjoy when this comic gets into theological issues like this as someone who spent a rather significant amount of time in a searching and evolving mode of religious philosophy and practice. The fact that I ended up with my own very distinct, and from the perspective of most religious people I’ve discussed such things with “very weird”, areligious blend of animistic Catholic Buddhism is probably very telling of who I am as a person and how I view organized religion.

  20. Rex Vivat

    Honestly, anyone who read the old testament knows that god is pretty damn malevolent, it’s just that he tends to get violent when you don’t call him good and loving every day. I wonder at which point people started to believe the lie?

    Disclaimer: I don’t actually consider the bible or any of its parts to be real. I’m just discussing this as I would any other work of fiction.

    1. Schpoonman

      See, that always bugged me even as a kid, before theodicy ever entered my mental space. Like Yahweh, the most powerful deity that could literally be defined, needed cheerleaders and he will FUCK THOSE CHEERLEADERS UP if they don’t keep at it

      “So, he created us in his image…”

      “Yup.”

      “…So we could pay him tribute?”

      “What? No! Why would you think that?”

      “You just said I would be cursed to eternal damnation for not worshiping him.”

      1. Rex Vivat

        I usually think of god as a supernaturally powerful domestic abuser, Jews are his people, so they better love him or else. The usual reaction to his violence also fit with that of an abused spouse: “he loves us, this is our fault”, “we must’ve done something wrong to anger him, we must repent”, etc.
        And if you believe in the new testament, the gospels are him saying “baby, I’ve changed, I’m all nice now”. Sent his kid to say it for him, too, the sleaze.

        1. Chris Phoenix

          The new testament is god cheating on the Jews! He’s making nice to everyone else he wants to be in a relationship with!

          Or it’s kind of like Joe and his dad. The dad is all “I’ll be your God and you be my people” except we all know he’s an asshole and he’s going to hurt Amber’s mom. And Joe is all “I’m not my dad, I’m nice, except I’m exactly like my dad so I have to be an asshole too, just in a different way, and I want to have all of you, but it’s all performative and I’m going to rate you.

          Then a century or so ago, some people got hold of the Do List. Joe is still trying to restore his reputation from Calvinism.

        2. Rex Vivat

          >The new testament is god cheating on the Jews! He’s making nice to everyone else he wants to be in a relationship with!
          I did specify the gospels; he didn’t start looking for open relationships until the Jews showed him what they thought of his ‘change’, and then he met this one weird guy called Paul…

        3. Dave

          Even as someone who’s no longer religious, it’s always really really weird to hear people talk about the Talmud and Divine Providence as if they understand the original intent when they’re obviously coming from the Christian perspective. It’s also sort of rude?

      2. Seregiel

        Is he really though? He had to asked to be worshiped above all others. Which brings about a very American Gods/Gunnerkrigg question on the nature of faith and power, because there were obviously other worthy options to consider with that statement being made.

        1. CJ

          Ever read (Small Gods or Hogfather by) Terry Pratchett? There is a distinct relation between the number of people believing in a god and the power they actually have. But after lots of people stopped believing in the Hogfather, in not only became possible to kill him but suddenly the god of hangovers showed up whenever called upon, because there was to much unattached belief. And it needed an outlet.
          I think he reall nailed it there.
          Wanting to Believe in some kind of a higher power is a human condition because the world is uncertain and scary, and having a mentally safe place and some actions that help control the uncertainty help to keep people sane. Mostly. Som fall into it so strongly, the come out the other side.

          So the increasing appearance of totally illogical interpretations of established religions or th creation of new ones or other kinds of belief systems akin to religion are a logical if dangerous result of a world that gets mentally more uncertain by the minute (the more I learned, the more I realized the less I know as well as knowing about people being raped or killed at the other side of the world increases our feeling of vulnerability even if that has nothing to do with our actual safety). Throw in a few demagogues stirring the brew and it gets nast fast.

        2. Seregiel

          American gods had this. It’s why Neil gaimans and preachers A Good Omens probably worked so well. They explore those questions in their own too.

        3. Seregiel

          *prachett. Fat finger friday! Wooo, ignore the Billie gravtar – it’s not what you think!

        4. Rex Vivat

          It’s a somewhat common concept; Ed Greenwood did it in Forgotten Realms supposedly as far back as the sixties.

    2. BigDogLittleCat

      That’s exactly it. He is a jealous, arrogant, entitled bully. But people believe he’s “good” because they’ve been told from their youngest days that he *is* good and they’re wearing “good colored glasses” so they don’t actually see what’s right in front of them.
      When the glasses finally come off, it can be pretty shocking: “how on earth did I not see that!”

      1. Slartibeast Button, BIA

        My fanon about Joyce’s faith versus many other characters’ faith is that Joyce thinks sins are wrong because they are bad for you, which is why God forbids them. Which ran up against Becky et al, where she could clearly see that love of same gender clearly *wasn’t* bad for them. Premarital hanky-panky, on the other hand…

        While other characters just think sins are wrong because God says so, and he is God.

        1. Robbie

          I was taught all commands were for our good

          So .. yeah that might be what Joyce believes. It’s basically what I believed.

    3. BBCC

      See, this always bugs me, because this crap about how the Old Testament god is so much more malevolent than the New Testament one almost always comes around to bite Jewish people in the ass. The New Testament one isn’t any fucking better. He’s just got people going hard on PR, so they focus more on the benevolent moments.

      1. thejeff

        It does tie into anti-Semitism in weird ways.

        Still, I think it’s largely that the OT God is more active and explicit about the nasty things he wants done – since it’s largely written as the history of the people and their attempts to follow his commands. This leads to all sorts of rationalizing about why they did bad things and why God made bad things happen to them.

        The New Testament is more personal: Jesus’s life and teachings and what happened in the early church along with some musings by important early figures. They were persecuted, but they weren’t in position at that point to be carrying out atrocities, so there’s no need to rationalize them as God’s commands.

        Of course, even while Christians talk about how the OT version is worse, Christians are also happy to seize on the bad parts of that version to justify their own atrocities.

      2. Rex Vivat

        I’m not saying the NT god isn’t just as bad, but the OT god is a whole lot more overt about it. There’s also the fact that I’m a lot more familiar with the OT than the NT, since I had to read plenty of it during my Jewish upbringing, while I only ever read the NT by my own volition (and usually skipped parts, since the letters to the Romans, Corinthians, etc are boring as hell).

        1. BBCC

          I guess? I dunno, one never seemed more blatant than the other to me. I’ve heard that a lot, but it never really occurred to me that one was more overt or explicit than one.

        2. Rex Vivat

          I don’t mean the actions of his followers, but what’s actually written. The worst jesus did was curse a tree (he was hungry) and throw down a table.
          And tell people to turn from their families if they’re against his religion, of course, but without that the whole thing would’ve been a non-starter.

  21. Bagge

    “Pit you against anything…”

    http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/pit/

    1. butts

      oh my god it’s been five fucking years since becky came back

      1. Bagge

        Those have been som rad years

        1. butts

          heck SH’YEAH

      2. Keulen

        And only a few weeks of in-universe time. 10 years from now they might finally reach the end of their first semester of college.

    2. Ethics Gradient

      A tear has been shed at this strip.

  22. Robbie

    Personally I went with no god and lost most of two extended families (mine and in-laws) But shall it profit a man to gain a world full of families but lose his soul? *Shrug*

    1. Bagge

      *Hugs*

  23. Bagge

    It really speaks to Joyce’s character growth that she doesn’t run away in horror at Ethan’s last remark.

    1. ShinyNeen

      It really speaks to Joyce’s character growth that this conversation is happening at all!

      This whole storyline has had loads of good things to say about Joyce’s character growth, even. Just nonstop awesome Joyce moments lately, I swear.

      1. Bagge

        This whole COMIC has loads of good things to say about Joyce’s character growth. She’s awesome like that

  24. Slartibeast Button, BIA

    Maybe when you change your fundamental beliefs it is like switching cell phone providers? Your new number isn’t in God’s established contacts list so he shunts you to MetatronMail?

    1. Bagge

      After all, God is on verizon

      http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/distressed/

  25. Jess

    This is really powerful. It takes a lot of strength, not to mention a different type of belief entirely, to do what Joyce is doing here, especially against a force as old and influential and traditionally omnipresent as Christianity (generally speaking). But for all her uncertainty about how best to proceed, Joyce is at least clear that she WILL be proceeding rather than taking anything back. She’s planted her feet. “No.” This is what’s right. You move.

    Excellent use of the word ‘recant,’ too. The parallel is immediately clear: Joyce is following in the footsteps of Galileo, Luther, etc.

  26. Uly

    1. Enterprise is the only original-universe ST that’s still canon, so yes.

    2. There are other options! For example, polytheism (pick a pantheon), or “A single creator exists, but it only runs its Sims game in the background out of nostalgia and has no intention of actively going back to it”.

    1. StClair

      1. …. what?

      1. timemonkey

        The time travel used to reboot the series only went back far enough to wipe out everything from the original series on. Enterprise took place before the change so technically it’s the only series still in continuity.

        1. Schpoonman

          Didn’t Star Trek 2009 go out of its way to establish an alternate timeline, a la Future Trunks from Dragon Ball?

        2. Uly

          And it’s great, because now every time either canon continuity doesn’t match up, I go “Timey wimey TEMPORAL COLD WAR!” and it all makes sense again.

    2. Seregiel

      There is a god(s) but people are full of it so there is no way to determine goodness or worthiness because original messaging has been warped. God(s) were around but then got bored with us. We are working as intended but because the world is dynamic and free will it’s up to us to

      Lists an atheist that has problems with all of the above. I mean, the twist is not believing in the definition of god as an omnipotent thinks like us diety we have to worship leaves a lot more wiggle room than yes/no. Like the purpose of energy/evolution being a process to bring about a good by the very fact of progression. It’s not a moral good but the idea that there is an undercurrent pushing life forward without thought or guidance, just a prime objective of liiiiiiive and that’s just a universal function like physics. Reincarnation doesn’t need a god strictly to be believed because the recycling of energy in the “can not be created or destroyed” can be applied to conciousness. There are way more beliefs than the magic persons in the sky and when mixed with science – things get weird.

      If you look at theories for time folds and bleeds, lasting energy, some areas of string theory and black holes – demons, angels, gods, ghosts can all be explained by times fighting for shared space and what makes one good or bad is if it’s aiding our reality. Some of the theories out there can have super weird consequences for our religious understanding. I’m super tired so this probably is being listed like a load of tripe but science – when it goes to theories you choose to believe until testable… it can also get weird, yo.

      Back to Christian god perspectives: there are time stamps in the church where they decide which books or not are real, when women’s role In the church changes, when they think a miracle is false or not. Humans are the meat puppets interpreting things that our tiny brains can’t handle and skewing them with current understanding and preexisting beliefs. God is there, he’s trying, we just don’t understand so we are turning all the tricks for the treat while the guy in the corner is rocking himself that we can’t understand simple concepts like “staaaaaay”.

  27. miz

    I never really managed to pick up any religion for myself, but Christianity made me gay, so I’m gonna go with the benevolent option.

    1. Delicious Taffy

      The phrase “X made me gay” is inordinately funny to me.

      1. miz

        I’m so glad, because same. It’s a favorite of mine.

        (It totally DID make me gay, though!)

        (well, okay it’s more accurate to say it just helped me realize it, but y’know…)

  28. sun tzu

    Well, Jacob, option one kind of works for me. Option two is consistent with any God who’d commit genocide, condone slavery, and torture people forever, so it’s not unreasonable in a Judeo-Christian context. As for option three… well, it requires for God to be unable to handle having too much on his plate. So, works if you throw the whole omnipotence thing out the window.

  29. Chris Phoenix

    Another option: There’s a God who cares deeply about you, and wants you to think for yourself, and now that you’ve started, is giving you space to do it.

    I still don’t believe in, or approve, any kind of God. But really, these characters are kind of … uncreative? in the kinds of religion they can imagine.

    1. Seregiel

      Well, I think one is less about creativity and more about the fact he does have his own beliefs. Jacob is still exploring and Joyce was raised one way or the highway. As someone who grew up without that religious pressure and then went to a catholic high school… this was totally representative of the number of options among my peers. So many religions or experiences were discounted because it wasn’t close enough to original source and just because they are having a crisis over bible god, god was still there and you should still find a way to connect because occamz razor.

      Yes… that theory was applied as a reason to follow god: if following god leads you to heaven, and not following god leads to hell, and you can’t know until the end whether he is real or not, than you should follow god because then you know you get to the good place or no place which is both are better than hell place. Which is not occamz razor but was somehow related as being the same type of logic…

      1. Charlotte

        I always found the “You should just believe in god just in case he’s real” argument really odd, because believing in god is not really a choice. Like, I can’t simply go and believe that he’s real. I just don’t believe it.
        And if I just fake stuff but am a non-believer in my heart I still go to hell, if I understand correctly?

        1. thejeff

          Plus Pascal’s Wager is an inherently Christian argument. It posits only the two options and ignores the infinite other possibilities. Not surprisingly, since it was conceived in a place and time where considering other possibilities would be even more radical.
          Essentially, assuming you do decide to believe in god on those grounds, which god do you pick? The real god, assuming there is one, might be even more pissed at those who worship false gods than at those who don’t believe at all. Or as you suggest, those who fake it.

        2. Seregiel

          It also ignored the whole – an eternity with an asshole vs an eternity alone/in fire and how much more appealing the latter is to some people if there is a god and he is a dick. I remember having the conversation of “Hold that thought, shift it 20, what if I could believe in nothing but hope if there is a God he’s decent enough to reward us fighting the good fight, but if he’s a prick who doesn’t reward the struggle, than I never want to be near him and I’ll take his just desserts because I want no part of it? No? No one?” Phbbbbr

        3. Inahc

          Exactly – what if there’s a god but he sends all Christians to hell?

          This also makes a nice counterpoint to the insanity known as Roko’s Basilisk.

        4. Uly

          Blaise Pascal is literally the guy who invented the roulette wheel, just to add insult to injury regarding his little “wager”.

  30. Keulen

    I liked Enterprise, but it’s been about 14 years since it was cancelled. I don’t think it’s coming back. Besides, I’ve gotten into Star Trek Discovery recently.

  31. kilgaen

    That second panel was such an important moment for me. I imagine for a lot of people.

  32. BenRG

    Do you know what your problem is, Joyce? The problem is that a part of you (one that I bet has your mother’s voice) honestly believes that you are doing the wrong thing and that this has cut you off from God’s love. I think that, if you look deep inside yourself, you’ll realise that, whether or not you hear a voice, the consequences of your actions show that you’re on the right track.

  33. C.T Phipps

    Is Ethan speaking about the Jewish God or Primus?

    1. Mollyscribbles

      Either option is intrinsic to his belief system.

  34. goggleman64

    I find it darkly hilarious that someone might at once believe God is all-powerful, while at the same time claim “He’s busy”.

  35. nothri

    It is at times like this that I like to remember that Dagon is one of the ancient gods worshipped in the region of Israel before the Bronze Age Collapse, and is held by some biblical scholars to be the being ultimately identified as Yahweh after the epoch of the Babylonian Captivity when the era of monotheism truly began for the people of the Book.

    Yes, Dagon is also a great old one as per the Lovecraft mythos. So perhaps God is actually a semi-evil monster from the seas who cares about humanity only in so much as they have not been drowned or bred into his legions of fish spawned nightmares.

  36. ischemgeek

    Yeah this is actually pretty similar to a lot of conversation I had as a college kid.

    I do hope Joyce is on a trip away from faith as I would love to see a story in media that doesn’t portray losing one’s religion as a tragedy.

    Final note: I *really* hope we get Dorothy explaining to Joyce that secular morality is a thing and she doesn’t *need* god to be a good person. Cuz yeah I am fucking sick and tired of Christian hypocrites post-humously assigning their genocidal dickwads to atheism with a no true Scotsman fallacy.

    (“Hitler was an atheist!” Nope. Stalin was, and Mao was. Possibly Pol Pot. However, Columbus, Hitler, Franco, Nedic, Cromwell, all of the Popes and religious leaders behind the Inquisition and Crusades, and I could easily go on. Point not that mainstream religion is inherently violent but rather that historically genocidal monsters use whatever excuse is convenient).

    1. Reltzik

      But then we’d have to strike the mustache fallacy from the lexicon!

      …. I mean, it’s awful, but it’s got the coolest name!

      …… *sigh* Yeah, okay, the name’s not worth it.

      1. ischemgeek

        Hahaha!

        Fair.

      2. Punaparta

        What’s the mustache fallacy?

        1. Jhon

          You wanna grow a mustache? Know who else wore a mustache? Hitler, that’s who!

        2. Reltzik

          It’s what ischemgeek was talking about. “But [insert genocidal mustached historical figure] was an atheist! CHECKMATE!”

  37. Rognik

    Firefly will be renewed for a season 2 before Enterprise is rebooted.

  38. JohnInCA

    Ethan seems to be having a hard time with this heart-to-heart. I mean, reminding folks that the Christian conception of the god of Abraham isn’t the only option is important and all, but time and place, ya know?

  39. Apostate

    Fourth option: a mostly benign god who doesn’t particularly care
    Fifth option: many gods which complicates the situation significantly.

    Personally I’m inclined towards option 1. 3 I can’t believe, 2 is what’s probably going on if there IS a god, 4 is what I’d accept if we had, like, an Outsider situation. If proof of 5 showed up I wouldn’t be surprised per se but, eh.

  40. ziggy78eog

    I am going with Ethan’s option.

    God: “Humanity is going down the toilette, AGAIN. Might as well send them another burning bush…right after I catch up on “Stranger Things”.

  41. Mouse

    Ouch. I am there right now, Joyce, and it hurts.
    “Did God abandon you?” “Does He want you to make choices you could never make? “Has someone you trusted about and cared for lied to you?” “Does He not care?” “Is He even real?” “Are you going to Hell now?” “If you knew you would have to go to Hell, would you really be ok with stopping or changing?” “What about betraying or abandoning the people you love?”
    … It bites.

  42. hof1991

    Since people are dropping the idea of theodicy here, a good start for non-Christians is Bart Ehrman’s God’s problem. Ehrman’s faith crashed on the issue, but he gives the background and the main answers to the problem of evil in a world created by an all powerful god.

    https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Problem-Answer-Important-Question-Why/dp/0061173975/

    Ehrman comes down on “if God isn’t all powerful, then that’s not god” side, but that doesn’t stop him from listing most historical responses.
    This is your occasional librarian’s recommendation.

  43. Amazi-Stool

    FORTH option: He speaks in a really weird language were words are arranged in a very different order than you are used – which makes it hard to understand.

  44. Smiling Cat

    Fifth option: Both God’s omniscience and multiverse theory are true. God knows all, is all powerful, but his every action or inaction is playing out in an infinite number of universes. Every possible outcome plays out in one reality or another. Thus, your suffering and confusion has to exist, as does some other you’s absolute bliss. We are all the middle children of the multiverse, doomed to know that we don’t get to be part of the best universe (or even, necessarily, a pretty good one) but faintly comforted by knowing that we don’t have to be the worst universe. 🙂

    1. abysswatcher1993

      That is Homestuck in a nutshell. And Bioshock Infinite.

      1. Smiling Cat

        Wouldn’t know about those, but it’s basically just multiverse theory except also God was there.

  45. Jhon

    God no longer speaks to us because we asked Him not to. See, there was this problem with the Montanists who claimed God was telling them things that just didn’t square with orthodox belief.

    1. Bruceski

      I’ve always been fond of the Talmudic parable that ends (to jump to the punchline) with a Rabbi telling God to stay out of the debate; He gave us the laws, they’re ours now, and it’s up to us to interpret and argue them.

      And God left smiling, for His children had bested Him.

  46. Emperor Norton II

    “…No”

    It’s been a while since I’ve talked about this, so it’s time to repeat the following for new people.

    Of all the stories in Dumbing of Age, one of the most powerful stories is Joyce’s main story. And Joyce’s main story is a story of redemption.

    And it’s a powerful one too.

    Think about this: When Joyce entered this school, her only education and upbringing was home-schooling and a fuck-ass piece of shit church. They really tried their very best to make her one of them. Did they succeed?

    No.

    Because at her very core, the one part of her that cannot, will not, and should not change, Joyce is about love. Family love, friendship love, eventually she will discover romantic love too. She’s the one person that loves her neighbour like nobody else will. She cares for their well-being from day one.

    Obviously, not all of her ways of expressing this have been good ways, but she’s still learning. Or perhaps it’s better to say she’s -unlearning- the damaging ways she was taught.

    And when she was finally confronted with the dichotomy of the things she was taught, and what she truly believed in, did she choose her upbringing?

    No. She chose love.

    And not only did she choose love, she chose to fight for love, to stand her ground for love, to show with her actions that she repents for having promoted the false ideas of love that she was taught as a child.

    And that is redemption. Not just saying you’re sorry. Not even saying you’ll do better. But by actually changing your ways and doing better. But has she redeemed herself yet?

    No.

    Not because she’s not done anything. She has. She’s done a lot. She’s gone above and beyond; especially when she decided to rescue Becky.

    But I say “no” because it’s not an instant road to walk down; and that stories of instant redemption are just that, stories. Hell, it’s not even a road that really ends. It’s one of those roads one must walk on every day for it to be meaningful. But Joyce will walk it, even while stumbling, even while going against her own upbringing, even while wondering if the deity she worships is punishing her for it.

    I’m an atheist myself, but if you truly, truly believe in some sort of god, and you’re willing to risk their wrath because you believe you’re doing the right thing…. If that’s not commitment to her new path, to the path of love and redemption, I don’t know what is.

    And at this point, I’m getting more and more excited for her to finally meet Jocelyne. She probably will not fully understand what is happening. But her love for her sister will overrule anything else.

    1. Emperor Norton II

      Yay for not closing the formatting properly!

      1. Slartibeast Button, BIA

        The one sin that God will truly never forgive!

        1. Emperor Norton II

          …

          In this particular context, you’re God, aren’t you?

    2. Inahc

      https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/894/352/a5f.png 😀

      1. Emperor Norton II

        That is pretty much Bagge’s expression to almost every strip with Dina and Becky in them (because most of the time, they’re adorkable together).

        1. Bagge

          That’s fair

    3. ShinyNeen

      Hey, that’s at least an appropriate amount of emphasis, even if not distributed quite right. It matches how excited I am, too, to see Joyce learn about Jocelyne. It’s been so long since we saw Jocelyne in-comic that I’d forgotten how anxious I am for that to happen, so thank you for reminding me! And you’re right- the more time passes the better that meeting is going to go. Because as long as Joyce keeps displaying a willingness to learn like she is in this sequence right now, everything’s going to turn out okay.

  47. Rotunda

    It’s a good thing Joyce has her Monkey Master socks on for this conversation.

  48. jmsr7

    Careful there, Jacob, “there IS no god” explains a hell of a lot more things than just ‘why can’t i hear him?’ >:D

  49. Ragingagnostic

    There could be many gods.
    God could be in a fistfight with a malevolent god and is a little too busy to deal with us right now.
    She would up the universe and wandered away to take care of other tasks.
    God is taking a leak for the last millenia. It seems like a long time to us but that’s because we’ve got the lifespan of fruit flies by comparison.

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