‘Cause when I saw this last night on Patreon my immediate reaction was “why did Sarah just slutshame Roz for no reason?” instead of… I mean that’s still weird but Sarah is actually totally enough of a complete social trash pile that she would say this and in this circumstance.
God damn it, I totally forgot Liz existed. I seriously thought this was just Sarah shitting on Roz for no reason.
I had to read it several times (and read your comment) to see it!! Maybe because it breaks my suspension of disbelief. Sarah knows better than asking Robin how to deal with family issues.
The biggest thing that Dorothy has to potentially learn is that something like the Presidency isn’t something that you earn because of good grades, morality, or even because you would do the best job. Let alone because you deserve it. Abraham Lincoln lost a lot of elections. It’s because you’re selected to do so by your party and then the electoral college. I wonder how Dorothy would deal with that kind of failure. She didn’t do so well when she realized she couldn’t even get the dorm hall to vote for her (not that it was an election).
I don’t think Dorothy is that obtuse not to realise that networking is important. The problem is that she also knows that she’s not exactly the most freely social person ever. She makes spreadsheets. She uses outdated lingo and cringes.
But at the end of the day, Dorothy is also unapologetically… Dorothy. Turning herself into Roz wouldn’t get her the platform she wants to be elected for.
I actually think Roz may be the only person Dorothy genuinely loathes. It’s kind of interesting given she’s normally the all-loving hero but there’s some genuine jealousy there.
Plus contempt.
DailyBrad
True, though Roz isn’t exactly doing, like, literally anything to endear herself to Dorothy, either.
Roz has been shitty to Joyce, took advantage of Joe in what was honestly deeply fucked up on her part, and is a condescending douchebag to her on a regular basis. She also has the negative association with Ryan and the party, even if that wasn’t Roz’s fault. The RA thing obviously didn’t help, since Dorothy got embarrassed by Roz outdoing her, and Roz rubbed her nose in it.
I think it also doesn’t help they do align on some political topics, but Roz sees Dorothy as too weak-willed to hold Joyce to task and too willing to forgive, and Dorothy probably sees Roz as someone who thinks “personal responsibility” are dirty words. Like, has Roz ever once demonstrated contrition for like, anything, ever? Any inkling that maybe she isn’t the main character of life who can just do whatever she likes, whenever she wants?
Jamie
Huh. I thought I remembered a strip where Roz was pissed about Ryan, but the closest I could find was her being given no information and giving Joyce a card for, presumably, therapy.
That’s the best I’ve got.
JBento
As far as I can remember, Roz never actually found out about Ryan.
you can always izherit his fortuze. it’s something
King Daniel
You meaz, it caz be somethizg?
Segnosaur
A few strips before the ‘card’ incident… Roz was asking how Dorothy/Joyce liked the party. Her words: “It wasn’t so bad. Well, I guess it did peter out a little early cuz of some dumb fight or whatever. Someone’s always gotta make a scene”.
Granted it is unlikely that she personally knew Ryan, and probably wasn’t aware of the events that occurred prior to the “fight”. (Although I don’t think the house where the party was held would have been that big, so its surprising she wouldn’t have been aware of what happened to Joyce, or at least had an idea of what lead to the events.)
Spencer
This is a weird read given that Dorothy yelling at her prompts Roz to offer Joyce a number to a crisis hotline, meaning Roz was able to piece together enough of the puzzle that she felt compelled to lend Joyce a hand.
Segnosaur
Yes, she sort of maybe pieced it together (or at least figured out that something bad happened to Joyce.) But only after prodding from Dorothy.
I didn’t think she was ever siding with Ryan… her “gotta make a scene” comment was probably due to lack of knowledge. (I’m just surprised she would lack that knowlege is all.)
Dorothy is going out of her way to basically slutshame Roz here.
What do you think Roz has to be contrite about?
seregiel
I did not get a slut-shaming read from that. Dorothy hasn’t minded going for it, and she’s friends with Joe. I viewed it as an honest question. Why would a person be jealous over someone else making a choice that would hinder opportunities they want if they did it? Roz was claiming jealousy over Sarah’s slut-shaming, but Dorothy was asking why would only fans be a source of jealousy? I don’t think Roz needs to be contrite especially over slut-shaming, but I think the above poster was talking about her being contrite for past behavior she has done (hence the, “like anything”.)
BBCC
Roz gave a reason why it would be a source of jealousy – she’s making money off it. It might not be a reason for Dorothy to be jealous, specifically, but then Roz wasn’t talking to Dorothy.
Sam
To be fair, even though she wishes no harm to Roz, Roz did go off on Dorothy for Joyce being uneducated on topics as if being her friend meant it was her job to FIX Joyce, has been mean to her, Joyce and Becky, and even now takes a condescending stance as if she is above her. Why would she like Roz?
Roz also assumes the worst of people and rages at them for it which is the very opposite of her who thinks the best of people and quietly points out her concerns without trying to hurt them. Roz takes a wrecking ball to things where Dorothy would use a soft approach.
Most other people have their issues but they are often not directed at Dorothy and when they are (Becky) it is obvious it comes from insecurity/pain/trauma so it is easier to look past. Roz just smugly acts like she is better and more interesting and snaps at her even when she is nice to her because… she genuinely thinks not caring about a few social rules other people still care about makes her enlightened or something.
Hoboturtle
But Roz was generally right about those things. She got mad at Joyce for basically being a hypocrite as that point she only started caring about gay people because of Becky. This after she literal try to help a gay guy go back into the closet.
She was always right to get mad at Becky. She took Robin from dead last in the polls to single handely nearly winning the election. Roz pointed out that Robin would do horrible things and Becky knew this because that specially was part of their deal. I mean Becky could’ve explain “I’m planning on sabotaging her” but instead taunted someone with legimate grievances.
Then again when Becky did say she was going to sabotage Robin she never actually made an effort to do so. She just kind of acted disappointed that Robin was going to win like she forgot that’s exactly why Robin hired her.
Hoboturtle
Also* instead of alway
Specifally* instead of specially.
Half that my mistakes are auto correct. The other half are because of me.
thejeff
I’ve really got no idea how we’re supposed to take the Robin/Becky thing. It’s completely incomprehensible to me if Becky is supposed to have been able to bring Robin to the point of victory by tweeting vaguely leftist sentiments. Somehow that brings a populist majority to the Republican candidate without turning away the Trumpist Republican base?
I can see it bringing some social media popularity, though not without a huge backlash from right-wing trolls that didn’t seem to happen, but that doesn’t translate into actual votes.
The only way I can see her actually winning is a sympathy vote after the kidnappings, and that’s an awful thing to blame Becky for.
Ed Callahan
You make it sound like it’s something that could happen only in a online comic strip.
Speaking more generally, I find it interesting the fans of a genuinely funny strip don’t always seem to have much of a sense of humor. Of course the whole Becky/Robin election doesn’t make sense. It’s a joke. It’s also a trope.
Somebody wants somebody else to fail, so they pretend to help them but every bit of help is sabotage. Except every bit of sabotage actually turns out
to be an act of inadvertent genius that guarantees the other person’s success. That’s the whole gimmick behind ‘The Producers.’
thejeff
Yeah, that’s fair, I guess.
It mostly bothers me when other commenters take it seriously and blame Becky for it. Nor do we actually see anything that comes off as even inadvertant genius.
Spencer
I don’t think she ever did? I’m pretty sure it was a textual element that Becky made Robin look good, but it sure didn’t actually mean anything to her polls and then Robin withdrew anyway.
thejeff
It’s heavily implied that there was a poll surge after the kidnapping.
Regalli
Which Becky definitely had some role in, both in being the kidnapping target and her Big Inspiring Tweet Thread (which definitely comes off as Broadly Inspirational and appealing, the way a general campaign speech does, rather than any specific policy discussion, so I can see it appealing to moderates on either side of the aisle as an inspiring underdog speech.) But since said thread was intended to get attention on her after she gave herself over to kidnappers, and therefore get AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE talking about it and therefore looking for the kidnappers she listed by name, still a shitty thing to hold against her.
Segnosaur
Yes, Roz was right about Joyce being a hypocrite regarding gay rights.
But, at that point, Joyce had started to realize the error of her ways. Continuing to brow-beat her at that point (especially in a way that was disruptive to the class as a whole) seemed… unnecessary.
BBCC
Joyce was being a hypocrite at that moment. She was yelling angrily about ‘the church’ being homophobic but took no ownership of her own part in that until Roz yelled at her. Joyce even said later that sometimes Roz can be mean, but sometimes she needs someone to be mean.
thejeff
It’s all been said before, but I’m not at all sure that 30 seconds after someone has that revelation is the best time to attack them for not figuring it all out yet. Seems to me it’s as likely to drive them away again as bring them fully onto your side.
Nor am I convinced that Joyce is right that she needed it. It might have worked out in her case – convinced her faster, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a necessary approach.
BBCC
I don’t think it was a perfect or even necessary approach all the time, but at some point Joyce was going to have to grapple with that hypocrisy and Dorothy sure wasn’t gonna tell her. It didn’t have to be Roz, but I do think at some point it was going to take someone bluntly laying out she was being a hypocrite. Sometimes people do need a verbal brick to get it. Hell, some people figure ‘Eh, if it was a big deal and I was doing something actually wrong, they would be angry and upset. So clearly, if they’re being so calm about it, it’s no big deal.’
Needfuldoer
I think Dorothy’s more envious of Roz’s people-person skills than hateful of her for who she is.
Segnosaur
I do wonder if Roz really has more ‘people-person’ skills than Dorothy.
Yes, Roz had more support of people on the floor (who viewed Dorothy as too much of a workaholic/bookworm). But that’s a rather small group of people, and a rather narrow situation. But if Roz were put in a situation where she had to deal with people who opposed her? Her overbearing attitude might actually put her at a disadvantage compared to Dorothy (who is probably better able to be empathetic and/or a consensus builder.)
Spencer
Here’s how I see it:
Dorothy is a nice person and wants to be nice to everyone all the time, but for the obvious reasons of being A Person she likes some people more than she likes others, or: Joyce is on a higher tier than Carla and Other Rachel. She’s incapable of casually engaging with the rest of her dorm, but only starts trying to prove she can when challenged for the position of RA and so just starts trying to force herself to be more affable, more charming, and just completely fails at it because everyone there likes Dorothy well enough, but they can tell she’s being completely artificial. Dorothy cannot actually talk to people like this, she can’t force herself to be everyone’s friend because that’s not how she’s wired, but it’s something she thought she had to power through.
Roz is, actually, genuinely an effortlessly social butterfly. She’s not particularly close to anyone that we’ve seen, but every instance of her in-comic is her being genuine, and that means her bratty self-righteous woker than thou behaviour as much as it means her asserting autonomy over her body as a way to prove she’s not Robin’s pawn for political gain, reaching out to Joyce after the party, casually intermingling with everyone and dragging them along for the ride because she’s just actually really good at casual conversation. Roz puts herself out there in a way that invites people to her.
When it comes to actually being in a position of authority, yeah I do actually think Roz would be better at it. Dorothy would be too wrapped up in Doing The Right Thing to solve anything, she’d tie herself in knots trying to find the perfect solution where everyone is Being Better and they can all be the good person Dorothy knows they are, whereas Roz would just hear it out and say what she thinks and close the book on it, which I think is pretty much all you’d need to be an RA. It’s not like they’re supposed to be this dramatic.
Segnosaur
Again… judging Roz by how well she deals with the people on the floor may not be a good measure of how much of a “people-person” they are, simply because its was a select group of people who were probably pre-disposed to her ideals. Put her in a more diverse population (where she has to deal with right wingers, libertarians, hard-core christians, moderates, etc.), then see how much of a “social butterfly” she is.
As for being in a “Position of authority”, even the president does not have absolute power, and has to deal with others. Dorothy would try to find a middle ground to actually get at least some things done. Roz would stake out an extreme position, call anyone who didn’t agree with her 100% to be idiots, then complain when she wasn’t able to get the support she needed.
Spencer
We have very different views on these characters.
Dorothy would be too busy trying to find the right way to solve it that considers everyone’s feelings and carefully charts how to validate everyone involved that it never gets done, and it’s not like Dorothy cares about the people involved either way but she sure thinks she has to.
Roz, and I don’t know how to come at the idea that she’s not a social butterfly for not being polite to the dregs of society, would just get it done and at least one person would be mad about it, but she’s an RA. There’s not much she can fuck up that’s so bad that the people involved can’t recover.
Segnosaur
Getting everyone (or at least a significant number) of people involved is the way you come to agreements so that things can get done.
Attempting to be a dictator (i.e. “This is what I want”) without considering opposing opinions is unlikely to succeed, in any real political position.
As for “just” being an RA… if that’s all Roz would aspire to, even then her “My way!” attitude might run into problems, because even the RA might have to answer to others. (She would have to be the RA for people who like her, but she’d also have to be the RA for people like Mary, who would probably be quite eager to go over her head.)
Spencer
I’m afraid I can’t consider being mean to Mary as a negative.
Because it might lead to Roz putting a giant sticker of a hallway on a wall and then going through it, and when Mary tries she bonks her head on it.
Dorothy is a major policy wonk and probably really should be chief of staff or something, the person telling the elected politician what to do (or at least, what to aim for.) You *can* be an intellectual policy wonk and a successful politician like Obama or Hillary (hey, she did get more votes than Trump!) but I dunno that Dorothy is on the right path for that yet. I think it starts with being a party volunteer and working a long time inside things… Actually odd that Dorothy isn’t doing that; dunno if she hasn’t realized she needs it, or if she’s Waiting For Yale (and not being in such a Republican state.)
BBCC
She volunteered with Robin’s opponent last semester.
King Daniel
Jake Manley, if I recall.
JBento
OMFG, no. Clinton is NOT a successful politician. “Got more votes than Trump” is meaningless; that’s not how US presidential elections are settled.
Z
Hillary Clinton has a long, successful political career.
JBento
Something is not “successful” if your endgoal completely falls apart. That’s not how success works.
thejeff
Being a Senator is still a huge political success. Vast majority of politicians never reach those heights.
JBento
If your endgame is “senator”, sure. If your endgame is the actual presidency, then “only” getting to senator is a failure.
It’s the same difference as, lesssaaayyyyy, making a living as a cartoonist and being Bill Waterson.
so in this analogy, Bill Waterson is the presidency? and making a living as a cartoonist is, like, pretty awesome except if you’re Bill Waterson, who presumably wouldn’t settle for less than being Bill Waterson? So Dorothy is… Schrödinger’s Bill Waterson? yes?
JBento
If YOU were Bill Waterson, would you settle for less than being Bill Waterson? Wouldn’t you consider it a failure if you were Bill Waterson and instead of making Calvin and Hobbes you’d made… I dunno, 9 Chickweed Lane?
Oh wow your thought experiment is AWFUL
i don’t want to play anymore
Thag Simmons
Not on the campaign trail.
Nicoleandmaggie
What Z said.
I see in so many of these anti-Dorothy comments the same smart competent hard-working ambitious women aren’t allowed to win/be likable that I saw back in 2016. Someone wrote a very good article about the trope tracing it through movies and other media (ex Reese Witherspoon in election).
Only misogyny could penalize a woman for being too hard working. It’s like the way you’re supposed to wear makeup but you know not look like you’re wearing makeup. You have to be effortless or not try at all. But only for women. (White) Men neither have to wear makeup nor pretend they’re not trying and that they don’t actually want power.
I hope better for Dorothy that how Hillary is being treated in this comments section. And yeah, senator and Secretary of State are both pretty impressive and so is how much people love working with HRC. The world would be a much better place if she’d been elected.
drs
Obviously it’s not how elections are determined. But still, she got more Americans to vote for her, after winning the nomination, and coming close to nomination in 2008. She can win popularity contests, but was done in by nearly random quirks of how the Electoral College played out.
The way Roz is talking, Dorothy would never even be a credible primary candidate, let alone contending in the general election.
thejeff
And that’s despite being the glass ceiling of being the first ever major party female nominee. And a decades long right-wing media smear campaign. And a bullshit scandal revived publicly at the last moment because NYC FBI agents close to Guiliani were going to leak it. And Russian interference amplifying ever malicious rumor on social media. Not to mention the usual voter suppression.
seregiel
Her charisma stats aren’t high enough, she put everything into int (book smarts), wis (what she notices in friends) and dex (watch her go!).
Willis specifically said after the 2016 election that its outcome (and the ramifications thereof, since DoA is set “in our universe” and Word of Willis is that the current US President in real life is always the current US President in Dumbing of Age) would make Dorothy “a little less idealistic, and a little more bitter” going forward, so I definitely think that’s something she already realizes.
Since DoA always takes place in the present year, that would make this January 2021. Granted, it’s an alternate January 2021 where nobody is wearing masks or anything, and weren’t doing so in Fall 2020 either, but it’s entirely possible that the failed coup was mere days ago for these guys.
Yeah but so what? Thats easily true of 50% of the country post 2016.
Who among the readers doesn’t that describe?
King Daniel
Fair, but Willis did mention Dorothy in particular when they said that, because of her presidential aspirations (not to mention things like Carla, in-comic, referring to Dorothy as “Little Miss Hillary Clinton Junior” just a few weeks or so IRL before the 2016 election).
C.T. Phipps
That feels sadly like a story where we’d see Dorothy waiting for Hillary be elected then a Gilligan Cut to her looking shell shocked. A feeling that a lot of us could mimic.
388 thoughts on “Baby birds”
Ana Chronistic
“Will these be on the test, also”
Ana Chronistic
alt-text: hmm, I remember doing that but the opposite for the “What’s a Pope?” Shortpacked!
Nono
Okay but is panel 2 Sarah referring to Liz, or Joyce
Tannen
Yes
King Daniel
Aye.
Decidedly Orthogonal
Of course?
Jamie
YES.
Spencer
…oh you know what, is she talking about Liz?
‘Cause when I saw this last night on Patreon my immediate reaction was “why did Sarah just slutshame Roz for no reason?” instead of… I mean that’s still weird but Sarah is actually totally enough of a complete social trash pile that she would say this and in this circumstance.
God damn it, I totally forgot Liz existed. I seriously thought this was just Sarah shitting on Roz for no reason.
C.T. Phipps
Liz is Sarah’s Roz.
DailyBrad
Yup, though I honestly doubt Sarah likes Roz virtually at all, either.
Jamie
She wasn’t NOT shitting on Roz.
But she also must be fully aware that Roz has zero shame about it.
Sombrero
I had to read it several times (and read your comment) to see it!! Maybe because it breaks my suspension of disbelief. Sarah knows better than asking Robin how to deal with family issues.
Z
Definitely both.
C.T. Phipps
The biggest thing that Dorothy has to potentially learn is that something like the Presidency isn’t something that you earn because of good grades, morality, or even because you would do the best job. Let alone because you deserve it. Abraham Lincoln lost a lot of elections. It’s because you’re selected to do so by your party and then the electoral college. I wonder how Dorothy would deal with that kind of failure. She didn’t do so well when she realized she couldn’t even get the dorm hall to vote for her (not that it was an election).
Nono
I don’t think Dorothy is that obtuse not to realise that networking is important. The problem is that she also knows that she’s not exactly the most freely social person ever. She makes spreadsheets. She uses outdated lingo and cringes.
But at the end of the day, Dorothy is also unapologetically… Dorothy. Turning herself into Roz wouldn’t get her the platform she wants to be elected for.
C.T. Phipps
I actually think Roz may be the only person Dorothy genuinely loathes. It’s kind of interesting given she’s normally the all-loving hero but there’s some genuine jealousy there.
Plus contempt.
DailyBrad
True, though Roz isn’t exactly doing, like, literally anything to endear herself to Dorothy, either.
Roz has been shitty to Joyce, took advantage of Joe in what was honestly deeply fucked up on her part, and is a condescending douchebag to her on a regular basis. She also has the negative association with Ryan and the party, even if that wasn’t Roz’s fault. The RA thing obviously didn’t help, since Dorothy got embarrassed by Roz outdoing her, and Roz rubbed her nose in it.
I think it also doesn’t help they do align on some political topics, but Roz sees Dorothy as too weak-willed to hold Joyce to task and too willing to forgive, and Dorothy probably sees Roz as someone who thinks “personal responsibility” are dirty words. Like, has Roz ever once demonstrated contrition for like, anything, ever? Any inkling that maybe she isn’t the main character of life who can just do whatever she likes, whenever she wants?
Jamie
Huh. I thought I remembered a strip where Roz was pissed about Ryan, but the closest I could find was her being given no information and giving Joyce a card for, presumably, therapy.
That’s the best I’ve got.
JBento
As far as I can remember, Roz never actually found out about Ryan.
Thag Simmons
You may be mixing her up with Ron, the host of the party who drove them back to campus after the incident.
JBento
An N and a Z are just the same letter tilted sideways anyway.
milu
Good point, JBezto!
JBento
So CLOSE to being related to Jeff Benos, head of Amanoz, and concocting a scheme to murder him and inherit his fortune. Alas.
milu
you can always izherit his fortuze. it’s something
King Daniel
You meaz, it caz be somethizg?
Segnosaur
A few strips before the ‘card’ incident… Roz was asking how Dorothy/Joyce liked the party. Her words: “It wasn’t so bad. Well, I guess it did peter out a little early cuz of some dumb fight or whatever. Someone’s always gotta make a scene”.
Granted it is unlikely that she personally knew Ryan, and probably wasn’t aware of the events that occurred prior to the “fight”. (Although I don’t think the house where the party was held would have been that big, so its surprising she wouldn’t have been aware of what happened to Joyce, or at least had an idea of what lead to the events.)
Spencer
This is a weird read given that Dorothy yelling at her prompts Roz to offer Joyce a number to a crisis hotline, meaning Roz was able to piece together enough of the puzzle that she felt compelled to lend Joyce a hand.
Segnosaur
Yes, she sort of maybe pieced it together (or at least figured out that something bad happened to Joyce.) But only after prodding from Dorothy.
I didn’t think she was ever siding with Ryan… her “gotta make a scene” comment was probably due to lack of knowledge. (I’m just surprised she would lack that knowlege is all.)
Oh, and here is the relevant cartoon:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/03-the-first-step-towards-recovery/peter/
JBento
Dorothy is going out of her way to basically slutshame Roz here.
What do you think Roz has to be contrite about?
seregiel
I did not get a slut-shaming read from that. Dorothy hasn’t minded going for it, and she’s friends with Joe. I viewed it as an honest question. Why would a person be jealous over someone else making a choice that would hinder opportunities they want if they did it? Roz was claiming jealousy over Sarah’s slut-shaming, but Dorothy was asking why would only fans be a source of jealousy? I don’t think Roz needs to be contrite especially over slut-shaming, but I think the above poster was talking about her being contrite for past behavior she has done (hence the, “like anything”.)
BBCC
Roz gave a reason why it would be a source of jealousy – she’s making money off it. It might not be a reason for Dorothy to be jealous, specifically, but then Roz wasn’t talking to Dorothy.
Sam
To be fair, even though she wishes no harm to Roz, Roz did go off on Dorothy for Joyce being uneducated on topics as if being her friend meant it was her job to FIX Joyce, has been mean to her, Joyce and Becky, and even now takes a condescending stance as if she is above her. Why would she like Roz?
Roz also assumes the worst of people and rages at them for it which is the very opposite of her who thinks the best of people and quietly points out her concerns without trying to hurt them. Roz takes a wrecking ball to things where Dorothy would use a soft approach.
Most other people have their issues but they are often not directed at Dorothy and when they are (Becky) it is obvious it comes from insecurity/pain/trauma so it is easier to look past. Roz just smugly acts like she is better and more interesting and snaps at her even when she is nice to her because… she genuinely thinks not caring about a few social rules other people still care about makes her enlightened or something.
Hoboturtle
But Roz was generally right about those things. She got mad at Joyce for basically being a hypocrite as that point she only started caring about gay people because of Becky. This after she literal try to help a gay guy go back into the closet.
She was always right to get mad at Becky. She took Robin from dead last in the polls to single handely nearly winning the election. Roz pointed out that Robin would do horrible things and Becky knew this because that specially was part of their deal. I mean Becky could’ve explain “I’m planning on sabotaging her” but instead taunted someone with legimate grievances.
Then again when Becky did say she was going to sabotage Robin she never actually made an effort to do so. She just kind of acted disappointed that Robin was going to win like she forgot that’s exactly why Robin hired her.
Hoboturtle
Also* instead of alway
Specifally* instead of specially.
Half that my mistakes are auto correct. The other half are because of me.
thejeff
I’ve really got no idea how we’re supposed to take the Robin/Becky thing. It’s completely incomprehensible to me if Becky is supposed to have been able to bring Robin to the point of victory by tweeting vaguely leftist sentiments. Somehow that brings a populist majority to the Republican candidate without turning away the Trumpist Republican base?
I can see it bringing some social media popularity, though not without a huge backlash from right-wing trolls that didn’t seem to happen, but that doesn’t translate into actual votes.
The only way I can see her actually winning is a sympathy vote after the kidnappings, and that’s an awful thing to blame Becky for.
Ed Callahan
You make it sound like it’s something that could happen only in a online comic strip.
Speaking more generally, I find it interesting the fans of a genuinely funny strip don’t always seem to have much of a sense of humor. Of course the whole Becky/Robin election doesn’t make sense. It’s a joke. It’s also a trope.
Somebody wants somebody else to fail, so they pretend to help them but every bit of help is sabotage. Except every bit of sabotage actually turns out
to be an act of inadvertent genius that guarantees the other person’s success. That’s the whole gimmick behind ‘The Producers.’
thejeff
Yeah, that’s fair, I guess.
It mostly bothers me when other commenters take it seriously and blame Becky for it. Nor do we actually see anything that comes off as even inadvertant genius.
Spencer
I don’t think she ever did? I’m pretty sure it was a textual element that Becky made Robin look good, but it sure didn’t actually mean anything to her polls and then Robin withdrew anyway.
thejeff
It’s heavily implied that there was a poll surge after the kidnapping.
Regalli
Which Becky definitely had some role in, both in being the kidnapping target and her Big Inspiring Tweet Thread (which definitely comes off as Broadly Inspirational and appealing, the way a general campaign speech does, rather than any specific policy discussion, so I can see it appealing to moderates on either side of the aisle as an inspiring underdog speech.) But since said thread was intended to get attention on her after she gave herself over to kidnappers, and therefore get AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE talking about it and therefore looking for the kidnappers she listed by name, still a shitty thing to hold against her.
Segnosaur
Yes, Roz was right about Joyce being a hypocrite regarding gay rights.
But, at that point, Joyce had started to realize the error of her ways. Continuing to brow-beat her at that point (especially in a way that was disruptive to the class as a whole) seemed… unnecessary.
BBCC
Joyce was being a hypocrite at that moment. She was yelling angrily about ‘the church’ being homophobic but took no ownership of her own part in that until Roz yelled at her. Joyce even said later that sometimes Roz can be mean, but sometimes she needs someone to be mean.
thejeff
It’s all been said before, but I’m not at all sure that 30 seconds after someone has that revelation is the best time to attack them for not figuring it all out yet. Seems to me it’s as likely to drive them away again as bring them fully onto your side.
Nor am I convinced that Joyce is right that she needed it. It might have worked out in her case – convinced her faster, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a necessary approach.
BBCC
I don’t think it was a perfect or even necessary approach all the time, but at some point Joyce was going to have to grapple with that hypocrisy and Dorothy sure wasn’t gonna tell her. It didn’t have to be Roz, but I do think at some point it was going to take someone bluntly laying out she was being a hypocrite. Sometimes people do need a verbal brick to get it. Hell, some people figure ‘Eh, if it was a big deal and I was doing something actually wrong, they would be angry and upset. So clearly, if they’re being so calm about it, it’s no big deal.’
Needfuldoer
I think Dorothy’s more envious of Roz’s people-person skills than hateful of her for who she is.
Segnosaur
I do wonder if Roz really has more ‘people-person’ skills than Dorothy.
Yes, Roz had more support of people on the floor (who viewed Dorothy as too much of a workaholic/bookworm). But that’s a rather small group of people, and a rather narrow situation. But if Roz were put in a situation where she had to deal with people who opposed her? Her overbearing attitude might actually put her at a disadvantage compared to Dorothy (who is probably better able to be empathetic and/or a consensus builder.)
Spencer
Here’s how I see it:
Dorothy is a nice person and wants to be nice to everyone all the time, but for the obvious reasons of being A Person she likes some people more than she likes others, or: Joyce is on a higher tier than Carla and Other Rachel. She’s incapable of casually engaging with the rest of her dorm, but only starts trying to prove she can when challenged for the position of RA and so just starts trying to force herself to be more affable, more charming, and just completely fails at it because everyone there likes Dorothy well enough, but they can tell she’s being completely artificial. Dorothy cannot actually talk to people like this, she can’t force herself to be everyone’s friend because that’s not how she’s wired, but it’s something she thought she had to power through.
Roz is, actually, genuinely an effortlessly social butterfly. She’s not particularly close to anyone that we’ve seen, but every instance of her in-comic is her being genuine, and that means her bratty self-righteous woker than thou behaviour as much as it means her asserting autonomy over her body as a way to prove she’s not Robin’s pawn for political gain, reaching out to Joyce after the party, casually intermingling with everyone and dragging them along for the ride because she’s just actually really good at casual conversation. Roz puts herself out there in a way that invites people to her.
When it comes to actually being in a position of authority, yeah I do actually think Roz would be better at it. Dorothy would be too wrapped up in Doing The Right Thing to solve anything, she’d tie herself in knots trying to find the perfect solution where everyone is Being Better and they can all be the good person Dorothy knows they are, whereas Roz would just hear it out and say what she thinks and close the book on it, which I think is pretty much all you’d need to be an RA. It’s not like they’re supposed to be this dramatic.
Segnosaur
Again… judging Roz by how well she deals with the people on the floor may not be a good measure of how much of a “people-person” they are, simply because its was a select group of people who were probably pre-disposed to her ideals. Put her in a more diverse population (where she has to deal with right wingers, libertarians, hard-core christians, moderates, etc.), then see how much of a “social butterfly” she is.
As for being in a “Position of authority”, even the president does not have absolute power, and has to deal with others. Dorothy would try to find a middle ground to actually get at least some things done. Roz would stake out an extreme position, call anyone who didn’t agree with her 100% to be idiots, then complain when she wasn’t able to get the support she needed.
Spencer
We have very different views on these characters.
Dorothy would be too busy trying to find the right way to solve it that considers everyone’s feelings and carefully charts how to validate everyone involved that it never gets done, and it’s not like Dorothy cares about the people involved either way but she sure thinks she has to.
Roz, and I don’t know how to come at the idea that she’s not a social butterfly for not being polite to the dregs of society, would just get it done and at least one person would be mad about it, but she’s an RA. There’s not much she can fuck up that’s so bad that the people involved can’t recover.
Segnosaur
Getting everyone (or at least a significant number) of people involved is the way you come to agreements so that things can get done.
Attempting to be a dictator (i.e. “This is what I want”) without considering opposing opinions is unlikely to succeed, in any real political position.
As for “just” being an RA… if that’s all Roz would aspire to, even then her “My way!” attitude might run into problems, because even the RA might have to answer to others. (She would have to be the RA for people who like her, but she’d also have to be the RA for people like Mary, who would probably be quite eager to go over her head.)
Spencer
I’m afraid I can’t consider being mean to Mary as a negative.
Because it might lead to Roz putting a giant sticker of a hallway on a wall and then going through it, and when Mary tries she bonks her head on it.
Thag Simmons
I don’t think Dorothy is the type of person that makes a good politician. It’s not natural for her in the way it is for say, Becky or Roz.
Elle L
I think she’d make a great local politician but not a national one.
drs
Dorothy is a major policy wonk and probably really should be chief of staff or something, the person telling the elected politician what to do (or at least, what to aim for.) You *can* be an intellectual policy wonk and a successful politician like Obama or Hillary (hey, she did get more votes than Trump!) but I dunno that Dorothy is on the right path for that yet. I think it starts with being a party volunteer and working a long time inside things… Actually odd that Dorothy isn’t doing that; dunno if she hasn’t realized she needs it, or if she’s Waiting For Yale (and not being in such a Republican state.)
BBCC
She volunteered with Robin’s opponent last semester.
King Daniel
Jake Manley, if I recall.
JBento
OMFG, no. Clinton is NOT a successful politician. “Got more votes than Trump” is meaningless; that’s not how US presidential elections are settled.
Z
Hillary Clinton has a long, successful political career.
JBento
Something is not “successful” if your endgoal completely falls apart. That’s not how success works.
thejeff
Being a Senator is still a huge political success. Vast majority of politicians never reach those heights.
JBento
If your endgame is “senator”, sure. If your endgame is the actual presidency, then “only” getting to senator is a failure.
It’s the same difference as, lesssaaayyyyy, making a living as a cartoonist and being Bill Waterson.
milu
so in this analogy, Bill Waterson is the presidency? and making a living as a cartoonist is, like, pretty awesome except if you’re Bill Waterson, who presumably wouldn’t settle for less than being Bill Waterson? So Dorothy is… Schrödinger’s Bill Waterson? yes?
JBento
If YOU were Bill Waterson, would you settle for less than being Bill Waterson? Wouldn’t you consider it a failure if you were Bill Waterson and instead of making Calvin and Hobbes you’d made… I dunno, 9 Chickweed Lane?
milu
Oh wow your thought experiment is AWFUL
i don’t want to play anymore
Thag Simmons
Not on the campaign trail.
Nicoleandmaggie
What Z said.
I see in so many of these anti-Dorothy comments the same smart competent hard-working ambitious women aren’t allowed to win/be likable that I saw back in 2016. Someone wrote a very good article about the trope tracing it through movies and other media (ex Reese Witherspoon in election).
Only misogyny could penalize a woman for being too hard working. It’s like the way you’re supposed to wear makeup but you know not look like you’re wearing makeup. You have to be effortless or not try at all. But only for women. (White) Men neither have to wear makeup nor pretend they’re not trying and that they don’t actually want power.
I hope better for Dorothy that how Hillary is being treated in this comments section. And yeah, senator and Secretary of State are both pretty impressive and so is how much people love working with HRC. The world would be a much better place if she’d been elected.
drs
Obviously it’s not how elections are determined. But still, she got more Americans to vote for her, after winning the nomination, and coming close to nomination in 2008. She can win popularity contests, but was done in by nearly random quirks of how the Electoral College played out.
The way Roz is talking, Dorothy would never even be a credible primary candidate, let alone contending in the general election.
thejeff
And that’s despite being the glass ceiling of being the first ever major party female nominee. And a decades long right-wing media smear campaign. And a bullshit scandal revived publicly at the last moment because NYC FBI agents close to Guiliani were going to leak it. And Russian interference amplifying ever malicious rumor on social media. Not to mention the usual voter suppression.
seregiel
Her charisma stats aren’t high enough, she put everything into int (book smarts), wis (what she notices in friends) and dex (watch her go!).
0phidiophile
She’d make a better judge than politician.
Z
Dorothy for Supreme Court
King Daniel
Willis specifically said after the 2016 election that its outcome (and the ramifications thereof, since DoA is set “in our universe” and Word of Willis is that the current US President in real life is always the current US President in Dumbing of Age) would make Dorothy “a little less idealistic, and a little more bitter” going forward, so I definitely think that’s something she already realizes.
RassilonTDavros
Since DoA always takes place in the present year, that would make this January 2021. Granted, it’s an alternate January 2021 where nobody is wearing masks or anything, and weren’t doing so in Fall 2020 either, but it’s entirely possible that the failed coup was mere days ago for these guys.
Adam Black
Yeah but so what? Thats easily true of 50% of the country post 2016.
Who among the readers doesn’t that describe?
King Daniel
Fair, but Willis did mention Dorothy in particular when they said that, because of her presidential aspirations (not to mention things like Carla, in-comic, referring to Dorothy as “Little Miss Hillary Clinton Junior” just a few weeks or so IRL before the 2016 election).
C.T. Phipps
That feels sadly like a story where we’d see Dorothy waiting for Hillary be elected then a Gilligan Cut to her looking shell shocked. A feeling that a lot of us could mimic.