I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.
Polyamory solves the math of love triangles.
Reltzik
You don’t “solve” the math of love triangles by allowing fifty non-conflicting triangles simultaneously.
Imogen
It does totally solve the most common (and often kind of banal) forms of love triangles, but the best love triangles face more complex barriers than “I want to be with both of them but I can’t”. Those? Those ones are dull as dowels. But what if you love two people, but they’re enemies with one another? What if their competition with one another turns out to be the main thing attracting them to you at all? What if you’re *in* a polycule, but jealousy and insecurity form anyways?
ischemgeek
Also – what if instead of “I wanna be with both but have to choose one because compulsory monogamy,” it’s just practicality? A is moving across the world and isn’t interested in anything long distance while B wants to stay local?
Or A is interested in B but B is interested in C who maybe isn’t interested in anyone because they’re ace and then you have D who also is interested in B… Etc. Mine your high school classmates’ relationship dramas for more interesting content!
(Seriously my high school was better than a soap opera for unbelievable relationship dramas lol)
Or hell instead of the classic you cheater you must choose – maybe A cheated because it gave them a thrill, and unbeknownst to them B would have been ok with polyamory but isn’t okay with lying (I am not poly but most poly people I know are super big on honesty), then B and C and D go off into the sunset or something and have fun being a throuple (sp?) while A is alone because they’re a lying liar who lies a lot.
Joy
Hehehe
Sorry that last one is a mood
Uly
What if she loves your alter-ego but not you? And your alter-ego can’t be with her because of his enemies?
Taffy
Then you keep her away from goblins and bridges.
monkyvirus
Not really. I used to be with someone poly. I lived with them and their poly partner and honestly I just didn’t get on with their partner. But we both wanted to live with our mutual partner. So unfortunately polycules do not solve everything!
Well, thanks to “mean” Sarah, Walky knows Joyce has been masturbating a lot recently, but he doesn’t know how she does it or that she calls it doing laundry.
Angel
well other than sarah outing herself i’m sure walky would revel(?) in joyce admitting it herself out loud lol
Also, there’s like dozens of rooms in a wing, so dozens of people who haven’t even shown up in the background, but probably interact with these characters on a daily basis, off panel. We know all these phantom residents are of no consequence, but Joe and Joyce don’t.
Okay, I’m still not sure I get the Dot-hate from that incident. Yes, it was bizarre. But she was upfront about her intentions, gave Joyce multiple opportunities to opt out, and, ultimately, she was right.
Teaching masturbation as something enjoyable and not shameful (which Dorothy did in part by virtue of being present and non-judgemental) is, in fact, a very, very good way to keep people from doing something stupid in the heat of the moment.
Now, I’ll concede that Dorothy’s motives were not as pure as they could’ve been; it’s unfortunate that showing up Roz was a factor (no matter how much I, personally, love to see Roz get shown up). But there’s no evidence here that she did Joyce any harm, or acted with real malice.
So, yeah, “worse than Raidah” is a case that needs to be substantiated, at the very least, given that Raidah’s actions have encompassed both malicious motive and actual harm.
Freemage
Oh, and to be clear–she was right that Joyce shouldn’t be climbing Mt. Libido because she’s foggy-headed from hormones. THAT would be a decision that could lead to regret and shame.
She should bone Joe, hard, while in an utterly clear state of mind.
Thag Simmons
Even I wouldn’t say worse than Raidah and I’m a semi-regular Raidah defender
HueSatLight
I think at this point, there’s no “needs to be substantiated”, people probably aren’t going to be convinced, they’ve got their reading of the situation and will change. I don’t see “upfront” when Dorothy starts the encounter without telling Joyce first, and makes a dig at Joyce’s insecurity. I don’t get “without malice” from this face: https://www.dumbingofage.com/faceless/
You’re not going to be able to convince me, and I doubt anyone will be able to convince you. I do not hate Dorothy though. I think she fucked up, and can be better. That’s kind of the over-arching message of the entire strip, that people can be better than their worst mistakes.
Right? felt hypocritical how Dorothy was framing her own insecurities about Joyce’s attraction to Joe as her being open-minded on sexuality. No Dorothy, trying to keep Joyce from pusuing a real person because you think you know what’s best Is just another way of upholding your person status quo.
Shade
She knew Joe at that point in time as being a sleazy guy. I don’t know why people forget that.
Like she wasn’t being a perfect person that’s for sure, but you’re acting like she did something horrendous and unforgivable. No she had concerns because she knew what Joe used to be like.
Teaching her how to masturbate so that Joyce at least would be in a clearer head going in is like the least offensive thing she did during that time.
Archieve
‘Horendous and unforgivable’ no, ethically problematic yes. Deciding for somebody your going to personally teach masturbation to them when you have a maternal friend relationship makes consent very questionable consent because Dorothy and Joyce are not equals their friendship. I don’t think Dorothy’s actions need to be outright villainous to be acknowledged as wrong and I still don’t think Joes character in first semester is a justification.
Mark
“…not equal in their friendship.” Does either of them know this?
Schpoonman
Everyone is also forgetting that Joyce and Dorothy’s last interaction before that was Joyce very loudly and clearly telling Dorothy to leave her and her burgeoning sexuality alone.
Dorothy’s very next appearance was to say “Hey, remember a few hours ago when you said you wanted space? No.” And Joyce doesn’t even acknowledge it! We skip right over “You’re judging me again,” skip right over “Hey, you’re trying to control my selection in partners without having one of those in-depth talks you’re normally great about having,” and land straight on “I’ve never touched myself.”
The hard cut to them walking to the laundromat really sold the fact that Willis went “Well, I’m making this happen, but there’s no way to unambiguously and cleanly show Joyce consenting at this point, so I won’t.” We get a super shakey “If you’re not sure about this…” from Dorothy and ultra-eager-to-please Joyce saying she IS sure when she’s clearly not.
This is all of course ignoring that Joyce is a sexual assault victim which just triples how gross Dorothy was that entire sequence. I don’t think Dorothy is one of the villain characters. I do think she fucked up badly and the comic going meaner and wackier after the timeskip is going to do a lot of work in smoothing over just how wrong that sequence was.
And if I see one more person misconstrue Dorothy’s intentions as “She was trying to HELP Joyce have a clear head when dealing with Joe” I’m going to revert to my shittiest form until I’m nuked off this website. She was very very clear it was intended to control Joyce and keep her away from Joe entirely.
Marianne
But she was just trying to help Joyce have a clearer head when dealing with Joe. Now, granted, she assumed a clear headed Joyce would “deal with Joe” by staying away from him but Dorothy still achieved her main objective, albeit in a roundabout way different than she envisioned.
Needfuldoer
Did she?
We know she doesn’t want them together, but we also know she hasn’t seen any of the deep conversations they’ve had.
Joyce: “I want Joe.”
Dorothy: “No you don’t, you’re just horny. I know how to fix that.”
[Kinda weird laundry room sequence]
Dorothy: “There! All set! Now you can stay away from Joe.”
Joyce: “Nah, I still want Joe.”
Dorothy: *internal screaming*
Big Z
You can have good intentions and still be wrong, that’s the thing.
thejeff
She met up with them again – when Joyce was in the tree – and seemed to accept them together.
HueSatLight
Remember when Joe agreed he was planning to fix Joyce by making her cum, but really his motivation was self-gratification? That was pretty creepy, fortunately, people can be better than the worst version of themselves. But it takes recognizing them recognizing their mistakes. Anyways, Dorothy tried to “fix” Joyce by making her cum, after a week or two of her own fumbles being thrown into her face and needing a win.
I also don’t love Dorothy’s attitude toward Joe in that same arc. She was treating Joe like a sex monster, which I will absolutely admit has some degree of justification based on what we know of his behavior in high school and his first semester of college. But at the same time, she was disregarding Joyce’s privacy and wishes for bodily autonomy. Sure, Dorothy had good intentions, but she crossed some lines and the contrast between her behavior and what she was preaching to Joe deserves scrutiny. Plus, Dorothy needs to learn that she cannot solve all problems for all people- I think that’s kind of the core of her current arc- and having to accept that Joe is changing as significantly as she herself is would be a good lens for Dorothy to look through, I think. She can be a little rigid in her thinking, and learning to see others as multifaceted and dynamic will a) be good for her worldview, and b) probably help her see herself that way. I don’t expect or want a big blow-out fight, but a hard honest conversation between two people who have known each other for a long time during a formative period feels right.
I’m not sure Joe will ever get the whole story. At this point he just knows Joyce and Dorothy masturbated together. Which sounds odd knowing Joyce isn’t comfortable with sex, but I doubt he’d pry as she’s stated it happened before they got together.
So at this point I don’t think Joe will be bothered beyond being surprised it happened at all.
I really want to know what all she’s going to share about that. She is both making it sound worse than it was plus… honestly not really misrepresenting it THAT much.
Dorothy kinda pushed her into it, though. Like, seriously. Joyce didn’t seem to have much of a choice there. Dorothy was low-key coercing her into it. That pissed me the hell off there. Women get away with so much creepy shit in this comic. But Dorothy’s was a new low. I hope Joe confronts her about it.
It was maybe a little clunky pacing wise but I don’t think it was coercion. Joyce went along willingly and Dorothy gave her multiple outs. I don’t like the argument as it kind of takes away Joyce’s agency. Like she’s not adult enough to make decisions or that Dorothy has some total control over her. I just think Joyce needed to more clearly affirm she was okay with it but dialogue like that often doesn’t feel natural.
I felt like the narrative took away Joyce’s agency. I might not be so iffy on it if it didn’t come RIGHT after Joyce asked Dorothy to stay out of her business. And if Dorothy’s primary reason for doing it wasn’t “To keep her from making bad decisions.” and not just…self exploration. It feels like it’s just another way of her Micromanaging Joyce’s life.
Archieve
It definitely was, most of Dorothys motivation by her own admission was to keep Joyce and Joe apart and to prove to herself that Roz was wrong about her being a slut shaming upholder of the status quo. It was especially controlling with how Dorothy just walked in and told Joyce what to do.
Sirksome
I can agree with that. Dorothy having more selfish motives does kind of make the situation more questionable. I just don’t like the general Dorothy is a manipulator or Joyce is incapable of making decisions allegations. It kind of feels insulting to their relationship.
anonymsly
Their relationship may need some insulting. In-comic and to at least Dorothy’s face, so she can confront her icky patterns.
Masumi
Yeah, this. Joyce had plenty of opportunity to tell Dorothy to f off, had she so pleased. But she wanted to know where this situation would go, so she stuck through it despite being scared. No clue what’s creepy about that.
Archieve
Joyce is still in the habit of going along with what dorothy tells her even when she doesn’t want to and letting the resentment build up(ex) her being upset with dorothy outside the pharmacy for being so up in her personal buisness, blowing up at Dorothy and Roz ) so I never liked the argument that it was all up to Joyce to keep telling dorothy no and that Dorothy was right to plan the whole “laundry trip” without asking beforehand for permission.
eskimolos
I’m pretty sure the point of her blowing up about being in her business was at least half if not more narrative mechanism to indicate how having to go through multiple real life veryday changes (glasses, birth control) that she felt conflicted about due to religious upbringing and autism, and feel like she doesn’t have control over herself anymore was amplified by Dorothy constantly trying to shepherd her. In reality, she needed glasses, she couldn’t see anymore, she needed birth control, her periods were extremely painful which could be an indicator of endometriosis, and yes left to her own devices she may have avoided wearing her glasses or taking her pills. But it was also a sign of growth, that she was done being a child and wanted to be independent and responsible for her own choices.
GholaHalleck
Dotty had a position of power over Joyce that made it creepy for me.
I know people get all bent out of shape over the “mom friend” thing, but their whole relationship reads *to me* that Dotty had put herself in the “responsible for you” position for Joyce.
And doing hanky panky stuff while in that position when consent seems dubious reads squick to me.
And I reaaaaally dislike the “She could just leave” stance, because… No, sometimes you feel like you can’t just leave when this sort of thing happens.
Taffy
Dorothy putting herself in charge of Joyce doesn’t actually give her power, though?
GholaHalleck
It does if Joyce thinks it does.
If Joyce sees Dotty as an authority figure, and Dotty uses that to coerce Joyce do something sexual, that’s abuse. Doesn’t matter if she came from it or not.
143 thoughts on “Cheating”
Ana Chronistic
If you masturbate with someone else, is that cheating on yourself?!
anyway I thought she DIDN’T touch herself, that’s why it didn’t count??
Angel
i thought it was called ‘heavy petting’ tho technically theyu didn’t touch each other, just holding hands lol
Jonah Sanville
side note but i always get so excited when i see your propic finally come up in a strip!! <3
thejeff
It’s not explicit, but I read her asking Dorothy to leave before she finished as her going to touch herself.
Bajj
I mean… I think she knows it is masturbation but can’t SAY THE WORD because Joyce Reasons, and so this is as close as she managed…
C.T. Phipps
Joe: I want to tell you it’s okay but I’m afraid you’ll misconstrue it!
Joyce: YOU PERVERT!
Lumino
He could always volunteer to be her chaperone next time instead of Dorothy. That way it’s not cheating!
Rose by Any Other Name
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.
Polyamory solves the math of love triangles.
Reltzik
You don’t “solve” the math of love triangles by allowing fifty non-conflicting triangles simultaneously.
Imogen
It does totally solve the most common (and often kind of banal) forms of love triangles, but the best love triangles face more complex barriers than “I want to be with both of them but I can’t”. Those? Those ones are dull as dowels. But what if you love two people, but they’re enemies with one another? What if their competition with one another turns out to be the main thing attracting them to you at all? What if you’re *in* a polycule, but jealousy and insecurity form anyways?
ischemgeek
Also – what if instead of “I wanna be with both but have to choose one because compulsory monogamy,” it’s just practicality? A is moving across the world and isn’t interested in anything long distance while B wants to stay local?
Or A is interested in B but B is interested in C who maybe isn’t interested in anyone because they’re ace and then you have D who also is interested in B… Etc. Mine your high school classmates’ relationship dramas for more interesting content!
(Seriously my high school was better than a soap opera for unbelievable relationship dramas lol)
Or hell instead of the classic you cheater you must choose – maybe A cheated because it gave them a thrill, and unbeknownst to them B would have been ok with polyamory but isn’t okay with lying (I am not poly but most poly people I know are super big on honesty), then B and C and D go off into the sunset or something and have fun being a throuple (sp?) while A is alone because they’re a lying liar who lies a lot.
Joy
Hehehe
Sorry that last one is a mood
Uly
What if she loves your alter-ego but not you? And your alter-ego can’t be with her because of his enemies?
Taffy
Then you keep her away from goblins and bridges.
monkyvirus
Not really. I used to be with someone poly. I lived with them and their poly partner and honestly I just didn’t get on with their partner. But we both wanted to live with our mutual partner. So unfortunately polycules do not solve everything!
System_Anomaly
Joyce has really come a long way. No pun intended.
Bryy
But this also shows how far she has yet to go.
NGPZ
Aaaaaaaaawwwwweeee ??
Also yeah, i miscalculated earlier it seems. The likelihood of having to renew my slipshine subscription soon now borders on almost certain. ?
Nono
Wonder who else is in Joe’s hallway right now.
Though with Danny and Walky both out right now, there’s really not many people left of consequence that live there. Just Ethan, Booster, and Jacob.
Angel
it would be great if walky was in the hallway but i imagine it’d not be enough time/simultaneous for him to make it back lol
cbwroses
Well, thanks to “mean” Sarah, Walky knows Joyce has been masturbating a lot recently, but he doesn’t know how she does it or that she calls it doing laundry.
Angel
well other than sarah outing herself i’m sure walky would revel(?) in joyce admitting it herself out loud lol
Masumi
And even once he gets back, he’s probably busy freaking out.
HueSatLight
Arnold.
Also, there’s like dozens of rooms in a wing, so dozens of people who haven’t even shown up in the background, but probably interact with these characters on a daily basis, off panel. We know all these phantom residents are of no consequence, but Joe and Joyce don’t.
Reltzik
And Peter. And Peter’s frequent (entirely-chaste) guest.
Bin
The mom walks back in…
Carla's #2 Fan
Booster would enjoy this, for as long as it’s a chaotic anyway
Mark Sebree
Cue The diVinyls “I Touch Myself.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv-34w8kGPM
Just an Armadillo
Gotta love the transition Joe makes from “Wait, that’s what all this fuss is about?” to “Actually, something is genuinely not quite right here!”
TulipKitten
I really hope Joe confronts Dorothy here. Because that was really not okay of her to do. Like, Dorothy went below Raidah for me in that moment.
Derek
agreed
Freemage
Okay, I’m still not sure I get the Dot-hate from that incident. Yes, it was bizarre. But she was upfront about her intentions, gave Joyce multiple opportunities to opt out, and, ultimately, she was right.
Teaching masturbation as something enjoyable and not shameful (which Dorothy did in part by virtue of being present and non-judgemental) is, in fact, a very, very good way to keep people from doing something stupid in the heat of the moment.
Now, I’ll concede that Dorothy’s motives were not as pure as they could’ve been; it’s unfortunate that showing up Roz was a factor (no matter how much I, personally, love to see Roz get shown up). But there’s no evidence here that she did Joyce any harm, or acted with real malice.
So, yeah, “worse than Raidah” is a case that needs to be substantiated, at the very least, given that Raidah’s actions have encompassed both malicious motive and actual harm.
Freemage
Oh, and to be clear–she was right that Joyce shouldn’t be climbing Mt. Libido because she’s foggy-headed from hormones. THAT would be a decision that could lead to regret and shame.
She should bone Joe, hard, while in an utterly clear state of mind.
Thag Simmons
Even I wouldn’t say worse than Raidah and I’m a semi-regular Raidah defender
HueSatLight
I think at this point, there’s no “needs to be substantiated”, people probably aren’t going to be convinced, they’ve got their reading of the situation and will change. I don’t see “upfront” when Dorothy starts the encounter without telling Joyce first, and makes a dig at Joyce’s insecurity. I don’t get “without malice” from this face: https://www.dumbingofage.com/faceless/
You’re not going to be able to convince me, and I doubt anyone will be able to convince you. I do not hate Dorothy though. I think she fucked up, and can be better. That’s kind of the over-arching message of the entire strip, that people can be better than their worst mistakes.
Archieve
Right? felt hypocritical how Dorothy was framing her own insecurities about Joyce’s attraction to Joe as her being open-minded on sexuality. No Dorothy, trying to keep Joyce from pusuing a real person because you think you know what’s best Is just another way of upholding your person status quo.
Shade
She knew Joe at that point in time as being a sleazy guy. I don’t know why people forget that.
Like she wasn’t being a perfect person that’s for sure, but you’re acting like she did something horrendous and unforgivable. No she had concerns because she knew what Joe used to be like.
Teaching her how to masturbate so that Joyce at least would be in a clearer head going in is like the least offensive thing she did during that time.
Archieve
‘Horendous and unforgivable’ no, ethically problematic yes. Deciding for somebody your going to personally teach masturbation to them when you have a maternal friend relationship makes consent very questionable consent because Dorothy and Joyce are not equals their friendship. I don’t think Dorothy’s actions need to be outright villainous to be acknowledged as wrong and I still don’t think Joes character in first semester is a justification.
Mark
“…not equal in their friendship.” Does either of them know this?
Schpoonman
Everyone is also forgetting that Joyce and Dorothy’s last interaction before that was Joyce very loudly and clearly telling Dorothy to leave her and her burgeoning sexuality alone.
Dorothy’s very next appearance was to say “Hey, remember a few hours ago when you said you wanted space? No.” And Joyce doesn’t even acknowledge it! We skip right over “You’re judging me again,” skip right over “Hey, you’re trying to control my selection in partners without having one of those in-depth talks you’re normally great about having,” and land straight on “I’ve never touched myself.”
The hard cut to them walking to the laundromat really sold the fact that Willis went “Well, I’m making this happen, but there’s no way to unambiguously and cleanly show Joyce consenting at this point, so I won’t.” We get a super shakey “If you’re not sure about this…” from Dorothy and ultra-eager-to-please Joyce saying she IS sure when she’s clearly not.
This is all of course ignoring that Joyce is a sexual assault victim which just triples how gross Dorothy was that entire sequence. I don’t think Dorothy is one of the villain characters. I do think she fucked up badly and the comic going meaner and wackier after the timeskip is going to do a lot of work in smoothing over just how wrong that sequence was.
And if I see one more person misconstrue Dorothy’s intentions as “She was trying to HELP Joyce have a clear head when dealing with Joe” I’m going to revert to my shittiest form until I’m nuked off this website. She was very very clear it was intended to control Joyce and keep her away from Joe entirely.
Marianne
But she was just trying to help Joyce have a clearer head when dealing with Joe. Now, granted, she assumed a clear headed Joyce would “deal with Joe” by staying away from him but Dorothy still achieved her main objective, albeit in a roundabout way different than she envisioned.
Needfuldoer
Did she?
We know she doesn’t want them together, but we also know she hasn’t seen any of the deep conversations they’ve had.
Joyce: “I want Joe.”
Dorothy: “No you don’t, you’re just horny. I know how to fix that.”
[Kinda weird laundry room sequence]
Dorothy: “There! All set! Now you can stay away from Joe.”
Joyce: “Nah, I still want Joe.”
Dorothy: *internal screaming*
Big Z
You can have good intentions and still be wrong, that’s the thing.
thejeff
She met up with them again – when Joyce was in the tree – and seemed to accept them together.
HueSatLight
Remember when Joe agreed he was planning to fix Joyce by making her cum, but really his motivation was self-gratification? That was pretty creepy, fortunately, people can be better than the worst version of themselves. But it takes recognizing them recognizing their mistakes. Anyways, Dorothy tried to “fix” Joyce by making her cum, after a week or two of her own fumbles being thrown into her face and needing a win.
pope suburban
I also don’t love Dorothy’s attitude toward Joe in that same arc. She was treating Joe like a sex monster, which I will absolutely admit has some degree of justification based on what we know of his behavior in high school and his first semester of college. But at the same time, she was disregarding Joyce’s privacy and wishes for bodily autonomy. Sure, Dorothy had good intentions, but she crossed some lines and the contrast between her behavior and what she was preaching to Joe deserves scrutiny. Plus, Dorothy needs to learn that she cannot solve all problems for all people- I think that’s kind of the core of her current arc- and having to accept that Joe is changing as significantly as she herself is would be a good lens for Dorothy to look through, I think. She can be a little rigid in her thinking, and learning to see others as multifaceted and dynamic will a) be good for her worldview, and b) probably help her see herself that way. I don’t expect or want a big blow-out fight, but a hard honest conversation between two people who have known each other for a long time during a formative period feels right.
monkyvirus
I’m not sure Joe will ever get the whole story. At this point he just knows Joyce and Dorothy masturbated together. Which sounds odd knowing Joyce isn’t comfortable with sex, but I doubt he’d pry as she’s stated it happened before they got together.
So at this point I don’t think Joe will be bothered beyond being surprised it happened at all.
Golden Yak
“Damn, that’s hot!”
Jo_cubstar
I really want Joyce to come out as bi…
Dave Van Domelen
I mean, she’s still working on any sexuality at all, give her time.
RassilonTDavros
Eh, give it a few years.
Sirksome
She has to come out to herself first.
Thag Simmons
I do not think she’s there yet
Yotomoe
Or Cum out as bi.
Rose by Any Other Name
Dorothy already handled the cumming.
Steamweed
I thought it was Joyce who handled it! Sure, the laundry machines helped out a bit.
NGPZ
A former cult member, wouldn’t be surprised if her hand was just about petrified while the machine did all the work.
“If I don’t intentionally move it, IT DOESN’T COUNT IT DOESN’T COUNT AAAAAAAAH~”
Sirksome
I mean how many times has Joe done laundry since they got together like two days ago? 5? I bet it’s 5.
Angel
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2023/comic/book-13/03-joementum/dirtbag/ He seems to distract himself with other stuff like ‘cocaine’ lol, unless he got laid so often that solo time was never rly a ‘necessity’/issue for him lol
DailyBrad
I really want to know what all she’s going to share about that. She is both making it sound worse than it was plus… honestly not really misrepresenting it THAT much.
TulipKitten
Dorothy kinda pushed her into it, though. Like, seriously. Joyce didn’t seem to have much of a choice there. Dorothy was low-key coercing her into it. That pissed me the hell off there. Women get away with so much creepy shit in this comic. But Dorothy’s was a new low. I hope Joe confronts her about it.
Joe looks like he’s gonna break, poor guy. ?
shrub
I like the drama so I’d be all for this
NGPZ
Gonna break? Looks more to me like pent up horny ?
Sirksome
It was maybe a little clunky pacing wise but I don’t think it was coercion. Joyce went along willingly and Dorothy gave her multiple outs. I don’t like the argument as it kind of takes away Joyce’s agency. Like she’s not adult enough to make decisions or that Dorothy has some total control over her. I just think Joyce needed to more clearly affirm she was okay with it but dialogue like that often doesn’t feel natural.
Yotomoe
I felt like the narrative took away Joyce’s agency. I might not be so iffy on it if it didn’t come RIGHT after Joyce asked Dorothy to stay out of her business. And if Dorothy’s primary reason for doing it wasn’t “To keep her from making bad decisions.” and not just…self exploration. It feels like it’s just another way of her Micromanaging Joyce’s life.
Archieve
It definitely was, most of Dorothys motivation by her own admission was to keep Joyce and Joe apart and to prove to herself that Roz was wrong about her being a slut shaming upholder of the status quo. It was especially controlling with how Dorothy just walked in and told Joyce what to do.
Sirksome
I can agree with that. Dorothy having more selfish motives does kind of make the situation more questionable. I just don’t like the general Dorothy is a manipulator or Joyce is incapable of making decisions allegations. It kind of feels insulting to their relationship.
anonymsly
Their relationship may need some insulting. In-comic and to at least Dorothy’s face, so she can confront her icky patterns.
Masumi
Yeah, this. Joyce had plenty of opportunity to tell Dorothy to f off, had she so pleased. But she wanted to know where this situation would go, so she stuck through it despite being scared. No clue what’s creepy about that.
Archieve
Joyce is still in the habit of going along with what dorothy tells her even when she doesn’t want to and letting the resentment build up(ex) her being upset with dorothy outside the pharmacy for being so up in her personal buisness, blowing up at Dorothy and Roz ) so I never liked the argument that it was all up to Joyce to keep telling dorothy no and that Dorothy was right to plan the whole “laundry trip” without asking beforehand for permission.
eskimolos
I’m pretty sure the point of her blowing up about being in her business was at least half if not more narrative mechanism to indicate how having to go through multiple real life veryday changes (glasses, birth control) that she felt conflicted about due to religious upbringing and autism, and feel like she doesn’t have control over herself anymore was amplified by Dorothy constantly trying to shepherd her. In reality, she needed glasses, she couldn’t see anymore, she needed birth control, her periods were extremely painful which could be an indicator of endometriosis, and yes left to her own devices she may have avoided wearing her glasses or taking her pills. But it was also a sign of growth, that she was done being a child and wanted to be independent and responsible for her own choices.
GholaHalleck
Dotty had a position of power over Joyce that made it creepy for me.
I know people get all bent out of shape over the “mom friend” thing, but their whole relationship reads *to me* that Dotty had put herself in the “responsible for you” position for Joyce.
And doing hanky panky stuff while in that position when consent seems dubious reads squick to me.
And I reaaaaally dislike the “She could just leave” stance, because… No, sometimes you feel like you can’t just leave when this sort of thing happens.
Taffy
Dorothy putting herself in charge of Joyce doesn’t actually give her power, though?
GholaHalleck
It does if Joyce thinks it does.
If Joyce sees Dotty as an authority figure, and Dotty uses that to coerce Joyce do something sexual, that’s abuse. Doesn’t matter if she came from it or not.