their flirtiness tends to be fine and inoffensive in a vacuum. It’s mostly when another person shows up that Joyce tends to put her foot in her mouth hard and make people annoyed with the pairing
you have described the whole of Joyce in the comic, she is fine most of the time, but once people (plural) come into the mix she tends to eat her own foot. I actually used to not be able to stand Joyce, her rigid fundy attitude just rubbed me raw for some obvious reasons, but she has grown in some good ways and I have had time to like even her worst idiosyncrasies. ~<3
Matt
as an autistic person who is very atheistic, I used to not be able to stand Joyce, but “charming with just one person, socially incompetent the moment a third shows up” is extremely relatable to me.
Same. This isn’t a weird case where they act like they were always longing to marry each other since they first met or that their romantic relationship is way longer than a day and a half old; this is just a step or two up from their blurred-lines friendship from a day and a half ago, and it fits perfectly.
Meanwhile, I’m sitting here staring at Joyce’s jacket and going “Isn’t that a bomber jacket? That looks like a bomber jacket silhouette to me. Is she upset that it doesn’t have the classic fur lining?”
Like, I have a jacket that looks like that, and I call it my bomber jacket.
To me, all black leather jackets are the same bomberjackets, and all fermented tannin-heavy grape juices are red wines. I know not the fine differences.
Vinter Nacht
I really wish that all fermented beverages didn’t share the same exact taste of rot. I really want to enjoy beers, wines, coolers, and other fermented beverages. Nope, all mine have to be distilled before they lose whatever the hell that taste is that just makes them foul to me.
thejeff
I’m with you on that one.
Can’t drink alcohol that isn’t properly finished.
And I’m not sure I’ve run into anyone with that same reaction before.
It’s the lapels that make it not a bomber jacket — I said elsewhere in the thread, but a proper “bomber jacket” has a short waist so you can sit, elastic/ribbed wrist cuffs so it doesn’t get in the way of what you’re doing with your hands, and it fastens up to the neck by default — if it has lapels, they are the type intended to sit like shirt lapels, rather than the more suit-like/clubwear lapels that it appears to have esp in panel 3.
We only get one or two strips about other storylines before we inevitably circle back to these two being cute and not advancing the plot in any particular way.
yeah but apparently lotta people (including Patreon subbers) like it XD
what ya gonna do, in the end a popularity contest is three wolves and a sheep deciding what’s for dinner ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dot
Personally I would rather story structure and pacing not be dictated by the equivalent of passers-by throwing coins into a busker’s guitar case
Thag Simmons
I will say of all the webcomics on the web this feels like one of the ones that is least impacted by audience feedback because of how long the buffer is, so I don’t think it is.
Jon
Agreed, I’ve read other webcomics recently where the author will post the first development of a new story arc and then 1-2 days later the story takes a HARD pivot in a different direction, suspiciously in line with audience reactions (both opinions I agree AND disagree with).
Kinda like how the cowards at Disney backpedaled so hard with Rise of Skywalker they tripped, fell, and broke the entire franchise’s flimsy pandering spine.
DoA having such a long buffer likely makes it easier to ride out those bumps of fan reaction.
Kimi
I hated the Last Jedi so much that I don’t think Rise of Skywalker could have easily been worse than it in my opinion. Rise of Skywalker was campy as it could be, but I grew up with the prequel triology (Phantom Menace, etc), so campy wasn’t outside of my expectations. (Campy might not be the term I am looking for either, but it is all my brain can come up with). Palpatine in general tends to be the king of camp.
I always thought that the series did better when it didn’t take itself too seriously and didn’t try to overexplain things. For one thing, there is only so much background information you can put into a feature film, and most of the audience gets bored with just boring talking (why cutscenes, backstory scenes, camp, or humor is used to lighten it up). TV shows and books have more leeway, with books having the most leeway. People don’t watch a Star Wars movie to get the alien equivalent of C-SPAN unless it is going to turn into a brawl or a rap battle worthy of MTV ir a musical.
That being said, you do need to have consistency in your universe rules unless you are aiming for something along the lines of Monty Python. You don’t have to explain the rules to the audience explicitly, but they notice if something changes. Like a wound that could be healed in the first movie suddenly can’t in the second. The only way you can get away with the rules changing like that is if the work is presented in a first person perspective. In that case, what they know could be wrong or change based on new information, and the audience is pulled along with them. This doesn’t work as well from a third person omniscient perspective.
On a side tangent, I did read a nice story that did a neat trick with the color of the stream. It was set in more of a fantasy realm, but the stream was originally said to be a normal color. Then, as the character goes to take a drink in the next paragraph, they talk about the red hue. The story gives you a beat to see if you notice before the author had the character catch it a sentence or two later (I actually went back right after reading the sentence mentioning it to see if it had been called red before, and it was not). Forget the book’s name unfortunately, but I thought that it was a fun bit of writing.
deliverything
@Kimi
Pedantic note: Monty Python stuff does tend to have consistency; the jokes are often based on exploring an absurd premise or other bit of silliness in a way that wouldn’t work if stuff could just randomly change for no reason.
Even exceptions can rely on this continuity; in the ending to Monty Python and the Holy Grail, the protagonists — who had been dwindling in number over the course of the movie — suddenly have an army backing them up. Although that army had actually shown up previously in a seemingly isolated joke (“get on with it”), so they’re not entirely out of nowhere.
Not sure there was any point in me making this comment, but I’m just sitting here waiting for someone, so typing this helped pass the time.
Kimi
Monty Python might have some consistency with plot/storyline/jokes (especially in the movies where there should be some general overarching plot), but I am not sure how consistent it was with world rules, if that makes more sense? A consistent storyline and consistent world rules are two different things. Monty Python tends to rely on absurdist humor and unpredictable events. For example, someone can die from a sword strike while the black knight can still hop around without his limbs. Trying to explain why one survived and the other didn’t would just ruin the joke. It is just something unexpected that subverted our expectations of what should happen. If gravity decided to randomly flip upside down in one scene, it wouldn’t be too out of place in their work. If gravity suddenly flipped in a Law and Order show, people would expect it to be a major plot point with an explanation coming as it wouldn’t fit in otherwise. Also, just because they break some “world rules” doesn’t mean that they have to break all of them.
Note: “A rule is any statement that describes how a world works. A rule dictates what regularly happens, it is something that can be counted on. We take so many rules in our own world for granted, like gravity, weather, and the fact that all humans must eat, drink water, and sleep.”
You can also have something subvert a world rule in a story as long as you provide a good reason for the subversion and keep it consistent. Unfortunately, the most common way world rules get broken is in a series, where a newer story (ie book, movie, episode) doesn’t follow the same world rule as previously shown in a series. This could due to the author just forgetting that they had established that as a rule (especially if it was a long time ago). Another reason could be that the author felt constrained by the previous rule, and decided to ignore it or get ride of it without giving a good reason why. My example of this would be Luke’s in the Last Jedi. We had an established Luke character in the original series, and there was no build up or well done explanation of how it got to where it is in that movie. It hints at stuff, but never bothers to explain the change in depth, which leaves a sense of whiplash for people who knew his original character and how his first story line ended. I would go into more detail on that, but I don’t want to spoil anyone. My problem isn’t that they did the change as much as that they failed to meaningfully address how it got there. A big change like that is like the night sky suddenly turning bright neon orange. People are going to fixate on that and not the story line that you want them to focus on. On the other hand, if it was Monty Python, it would probably be a goose’s foot or something like that and would just fit right in.
Nyzer
Normally yes, but the abrupt shift in pacing and characterization for these two combined with statements from Willis about discarding the original plans and going against the buffer…
It might not be in response to the recent Patreon numbers, but it does still feel like this story bending way too far to force a result.
that was for the intention of Muslim characters having more prominent roles in the narrative, and frankly that’s a welcome change if you ask me, (at least given what’s come of it so far re: Asm)
Doopyboop
To add on, regarding original plans, sometimes things just change in the writing process and its clear that’s what Joyce and Dorothy are for Willis. It’s a sillier example, but Darth Vader wasn’t always intended to be Luke’s father and Leia wasn’t originally Luke’s sister. As the movies were developed and came out, original plans were discarded and those ideas were put into place. I view Dorothy and Joyce as being similar, Willis went into writing and drafting up their strips, went “hm, but what if”, went through with it, and decided “okay let’s do it, this works better”. Sometimes ideas are first drafts and if your second draft includes certain things changing, I think it can work out so long as anything that doesn’t make sense or sticks out as being a bad fit are smoothed over from the transition to first draft to second.
Li
Like those parts are literally the parts with Asma in them. Not this.
If Willis is “pandering” to any part of their audience, it’s the complainers! Plot twist.
Needfuldoer
This is what disappoints me the most. Joece the complex multi-year plot thread got rug-pulled, and all the tension that could have built up to Jorothy in that time was fast-forwarded to get to “the good part”.
Li
Simply not true! Willis almost pulled the plug on Joece in 2023 and again in 2024. The version we got is actually a version with much more buildup than originally planned, not less.
People keep hearing “it could have been five years from now”, but no one seems to have paid attention to Willis also saying that they almost started this storyline two years earlier.
Yotomoe
True though I think thats an issue in and of itself. It was the exact wrong amount of time for a Lotta people. If Joe and joyce had been cut off at the start it would’ve hurt but people would’ve felt less invested. Same for if they had run their course with more buildup on the dorothy/joyce end in the background. Rather it feels like its been stopped abruptly right as its reaching its zenith and to cement it further the narrative or characters don’t really spare any thoughts to the buildup that’s just deflated. It just hits a brick wall suddenly and a Lotta people got whiplash.
Li
I’m not arguing that the pacing was above reproach, just trying again to dispel this false narrative that Willis planned to do a lot more with Joece and then abandoned it impulsively, or worse, for clicks.
Willis was planning on that conversation between Joe and Dorothy before Joe had even asked Joyce out, and as disappointing as that is for a lot of Joe/Joyce fans, it’s also the truth.
Now, I’m still hoping for (messy, possibly disastrous) polyamory, but. When discussing what was planned, we know Dorothy’s feelings for Joyce were always going to loom over Joe/Joyce. The first draft had Joe explicitly offer to step aside for her.
There is no universe where Joyce/Dorothy was a sudden impulse that destroyed Willis’s plans for Joe/Joyce: Joyce/Dorothy was always part of that plan.
(And what you’re saying additionally is part of why I’m glad it happened now instead of five years from now, but I don’t think there’s really any version of events where Joe/Joyce fans don’t feel cheated.)
Li
Like, either they never even have one (1) nice dinner together, in which case they were never given a chance.
Or they got to have one dinner together and one date (that was still under the shadow of Dorothy’s feelings having been revealed), in which case they were broken up (maybe) just when things were getting interesting.
Or they got to date for like seven years real time, in which case even more people will be assuming they’re gonna be endgame than already were.
I don’t see a scenario where the reaction from Joece fans is actually “thank goodness Willis didn’t let me get my hopes up too high”. In part because that’s just not how shipping works, the shipping brain often has high hopes even before there’s any textual reason to.
Li
(Real time being OUR years, in-universe seven years of dating with the current pace of stories comes out to about a month.)
zee
@Li it does feel like they accidentally set up more for JoJo. Like the way it was going didn’t feel temporary, it seemed like there was a lot of narrative material that was going to be explored. Also just gonna add that Willis themself admitted that DoJo ended up being canonized earlier than intended bc that’s just how their pen flowed, so to speak. In setting up the emotional climax at the protest they realized “oh. That’s arch. This is a wedding.” And decided it had to happen there and then. I believe this is commentary from the Patreon so it wouldn’t be easily accessible. But yeah, I won’t call DoJo happening impulsive but it was much earlier than intended. They also talked about all the money they would have made off of a JoJo slipshine, which I can only assume means he was at least planning to do one at some point? So, yeah the way this storyline unfolded wasn’t planned out for ages, and maybe that means more stuff with JoJo was planned initially and got scrapped.
Li
@zee: that’s exactly what I’m referring to — “ended up being canonized earlier than intended” is just not true.
I’ve read the Patreon posts and they’re all public, anyone can go read them.
What Willis actually said is: “here are two other times I almost started Joyce/Dorothy earlier” AND “when I realized the wedding imagery was happening, I went for it, having previously thought it would wait another five years”.
Like, everyone keeps fixating on that second part and ignoring the first part.
There are not two timelines, this isn’t a binary,
We got Dorothy/Joyce in 2025. We might have gotten it in 2023 or 2024. We might not have gotten it until 2030.
OR we might have gotten it at some point between 2025 and 2030, because Willis had been looking for opportunities to pull the trigger on it for two years already.
SillyGoose
At this point I suspect there’s some cheerful trolling going on, and the more we remark that we’d like to know what’s happening in the other storylines, the more “This just in: Dorothy and Joyce being cute” is going to intrude.
Maybe we’ll even cut to Steve eating cereals at some point.
Acher4
@Thag Simmons
shhhhh, don’t say facts in these threads. 😛
Astariel
I mean, we’ve seen just recently that Willis is willing to change the direction of the comic in response to audience feedback, when that happened in response to the negative reception of the protest storyline. That’s one reason why I’ve felt compelled to defend Joyrothy as vehemently as I have, because I’m worried that the strength of the negative reaction in the comments, uncountered by a similar positive reaction, could cause Willis to make another storyline change to remove Joyrothy.
Li
The difference there being that Willis agreed that Asma and their other Muslim characters were criminally underutilized.
I don’t think they’re ever going to agree that Joyce/Dorothy sucks and is boring.
zee
Yeah that’s not happening. This is clearly his otp, he’s been caping for it from time. Chill, your ship is fine. The protest storyline only got adjusted bc it crossed the line from unpopular to genuinely offensive to irl marginalized groups and trivializing irl protests for an irl genocide. I believe that’s the first and only time Willis has ever adjusted the comic in response to the audience. It was an extreme case and an anomaly. They are so not letting their audience dictate where the comic goes.
Li
@zee: letting us dictate it, no, never.
But like. Does our enthusiasm for an idea Willis hadn’t thought of NEVER affect their creative process? I doubt that.
I bet even if the Joe/Dorothy/Joyce thing doesn’t happen, we’ll get more screen time for the existing polycule on Joyce’s floor, for example, and that at least part of that will be because a lot of readers got excited over the possibility of #polyrep.
zee
I mean yeah for sure, but it’s not like dojo is actually at risk of getting written out bc it wound up being controversial. Major plot defining things like that aren’t determined by whether people like it or not. That’s the main thing I’m responding to. Cape for them if you wanna but you don’t gotta do it out of fear of losing them
nadamás
I mean, they not. They are dictated by what the author wants to happen.
Clif
If there are critics who don’t like the tempo at which you’re choosing to play and meanwhile the passers-by keep tossing dollars into your guitar case, the critics can be safely ignored.
I mean, it’s also because Willis like it, which is ultimately what decides what goes on the strip or not.
zee
I don’t think popularity is a factor when the strips are written a year before people get to give their opinions. Tho I am guessing Willis thought people were gonna be a lot more universally excited for this than they ended up being
Big Z
Pretty sure Willis has said on Bluesky that they especially enjoy drawing these two as a couple, and I suspect that’s the only “popularity contest” that matters here.
Liara
It’s almost like the plot was always about Joyce and Dorothy
nadamás
And honestly as far as i am concerned “the plot” (god i hate that word sometimes) it’s just whatever the characters are doing or planning on doing, there over arching narratives in the long run, but the beat of the story is generally just the characters doing, or reacting to, whatever.
Dot
Except it wasn’t, not to this extent. Joyce and Dorothy have always been central characters, but DOA has always been an ensemble piece with a great many moving parts, and lately a lot of those moving parts have been ignored or subsumed in order to have More Joyce And Dorothy.
Big Z
Honestly, the “Joyce and Dorothy were always the main characters” folks are another group I think might be reading a different comic than the rest of us.
Steamweed
“DoA” means “Dor-oyce-ing of Age”
Needfuldoer
Doycing of Age
Anna Grant
I think it’s a little early to determine if “Joyce buying a jacket” is going to be plot relevant or not.
Also a little odd to complain that the romantic stuff isn’t plot relevant in a romantic comedy.
Acher4
It’s funny that Dina bying a suit was a plot point, but Dorothy getting Joyce a jacket that makes look like her OC, is not?….
hmmmmmmmmmm?????????
zee
I wouldn’t say doa is a romcom, its a dramedy. Romcom implies it was always meant to be about a specific couple. Also again I find myself completely unable to decipher what the fuck acher is trying to say. Its impressive, my autistic ass is usually able to read tone in these comments pretty well but this one specific person absolutely stumps me every day
Nymph
Acher is saying:
Dina bought a suit to see if it caused happy-pants-feelings in Becky and no one complained it wasn’t advancing the plot (like the comment that spawned this section of the thread).
Joyce and Dorothy are talking about buying a jacket in part because it causes general happiness for Joyce and in part because it causes happy-pants-feelings in Dorothy, and people are complaining it doesn’t advance the plot.
Acher feels like this is a double-standard and unfair to Joyce/Dorothy since there were no (or few, idk) complaints about a similar situation happening to a different sapphic couple.
Of Note: I don’t necessarily agree with this take, I think it ignores some context, but that’s what they seem to be saying.
zee
Thank you for the translation, appreciate it. I also mad disagree bc Becky and Dina were taking up a very small percentage of the plot. That one plot thread was, what. Three strips long? And then we didn’t see them again for a while. It was almost background. Meanwhile this is being presented as basically the main plot. And hell this is like the first or second page of them I’ve actually found cute, but fuck, yeah I can get finding this tedious and annoying.
Acher4
just wanted to say… i’m sorry. :/
I turn to be sarcastic though a lot. just fyi.
and cynical.
And also angry towards injustice…
SillyGoose
Well, Asma agreed to go bowling in return for the girl in a leather jacket being there. So now instead of Alice, she’ll probably get Sal and Joyce, and there might be shenanigans afoot.
It’s kind of weird how knowing about the “go back and add more Asma strips” thing is sort of like a cognitohazard. If I’d never heard it, I probably wouldn’t have noticed — but because I’ve seen discussion about those being added in, it’s interesting how I notice them and notice where they’re placed in the story.
I know there are other examples of creators saying they plan to make changes based on audience feedback (Rich Burlew of Order of the Stick had a big declaration about putting more female characters in after there was a lot of discussion on the forum). webcomics make it possible to be SUCH an immediate and significant change, more than TV, film, or published books.
316 thoughts on “Bomber”
QueenofSodor
joyce fantasizing about her wife wearing presidential clothing is like, the most ‘fork found in kitchen’ revelation of all time.
it does cast her reaction to dina in a suit in a new light, though!
Anonymouse
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/itsadate/
NGPZ
eh ngl this actually *kinda* cute
no kvetching from me today XD
profnekko
their flirtiness tends to be fine and inoffensive in a vacuum. It’s mostly when another person shows up that Joyce tends to put her foot in her mouth hard and make people annoyed with the pairing
DJTsurugi
you have described the whole of Joyce in the comic, she is fine most of the time, but once people (plural) come into the mix she tends to eat her own foot. I actually used to not be able to stand Joyce, her rigid fundy attitude just rubbed me raw for some obvious reasons, but she has grown in some good ways and I have had time to like even her worst idiosyncrasies. ~<3
Matt
as an autistic person who is very atheistic, I used to not be able to stand Joyce, but “charming with just one person, socially incompetent the moment a third shows up” is extremely relatable to me.
Thag Simmons
For all my grumbling, Willis is very good at cute couple stuff.
NGPZ
if only we’d get more Sal X Danny then, they hella cute couple ^-^
Thag Simmons
I’m still shocked at how well that was executed, I was not expecting to end up liking those two as much as I did.
DJTsurugi
shouldn’t the couple we want to see more of right now… be Becky/Dina? ~<3
NGPZ
unfortunately we will not be seeing them as a couple anymore
Willis himself also confirmed The End of Lizbiangelion
???
David M Willis
I just said I liked the hashtag!!!!!
SillyGoose
That some emotional rollercoaster here, in the space of two comments.
1) they’re doomed! 🙁
2) no they’re good! 🙂
3) no in fact we don’t know -_-
Nyzer
Same. This isn’t a weird case where they act like they were always longing to marry each other since they first met or that their romantic relationship is way longer than a day and a half old; this is just a step or two up from their blurred-lines friendship from a day and a half ago, and it fits perfectly.
Big Z
Concur wholeheartedly.
zee
Yeah this one’s cute, can’t even lie
Pocky
SUITS SUITS SUITS
Rose by Any other Name
Meanwhile, I’m sitting here staring at Joyce’s jacket and going “Isn’t that a bomber jacket? That looks like a bomber jacket silhouette to me. Is she upset that it doesn’t have the classic fur lining?”
Like, I have a jacket that looks like that, and I call it my bomber jacket.
Steamweed
To me, all black leather jackets are the same bomberjackets, and all fermented tannin-heavy grape juices are red wines. I know not the fine differences.
Vinter Nacht
I really wish that all fermented beverages didn’t share the same exact taste of rot. I really want to enjoy beers, wines, coolers, and other fermented beverages. Nope, all mine have to be distilled before they lose whatever the hell that taste is that just makes them foul to me.
thejeff
I’m with you on that one.
Can’t drink alcohol that isn’t properly finished.
And I’m not sure I’ve run into anyone with that same reaction before.
Big Z
It’s the lapels that make it not a bomber jacket — I said elsewhere in the thread, but a proper “bomber jacket” has a short waist so you can sit, elastic/ribbed wrist cuffs so it doesn’t get in the way of what you’re doing with your hands, and it fastens up to the neck by default — if it has lapels, they are the type intended to sit like shirt lapels, rather than the more suit-like/clubwear lapels that it appears to have esp in panel 3.
Lumino
The 48 hour curse continues.
NGPZ
what curse?
Dot
We only get one or two strips about other storylines before we inevitably circle back to these two being cute and not advancing the plot in any particular way.
NGPZ
yeah but apparently lotta people (including Patreon subbers) like it XD
what ya gonna do, in the end a popularity contest is three wolves and a sheep deciding what’s for dinner ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dot
Personally I would rather story structure and pacing not be dictated by the equivalent of passers-by throwing coins into a busker’s guitar case
Thag Simmons
I will say of all the webcomics on the web this feels like one of the ones that is least impacted by audience feedback because of how long the buffer is, so I don’t think it is.
Jon
Agreed, I’ve read other webcomics recently where the author will post the first development of a new story arc and then 1-2 days later the story takes a HARD pivot in a different direction, suspiciously in line with audience reactions (both opinions I agree AND disagree with).
Kinda like how the cowards at Disney backpedaled so hard with Rise of Skywalker they tripped, fell, and broke the entire franchise’s flimsy pandering spine.
DoA having such a long buffer likely makes it easier to ride out those bumps of fan reaction.
Kimi
I hated the Last Jedi so much that I don’t think Rise of Skywalker could have easily been worse than it in my opinion. Rise of Skywalker was campy as it could be, but I grew up with the prequel triology (Phantom Menace, etc), so campy wasn’t outside of my expectations. (Campy might not be the term I am looking for either, but it is all my brain can come up with). Palpatine in general tends to be the king of camp.
I always thought that the series did better when it didn’t take itself too seriously and didn’t try to overexplain things. For one thing, there is only so much background information you can put into a feature film, and most of the audience gets bored with just boring talking (why cutscenes, backstory scenes, camp, or humor is used to lighten it up). TV shows and books have more leeway, with books having the most leeway. People don’t watch a Star Wars movie to get the alien equivalent of C-SPAN unless it is going to turn into a brawl or a rap battle worthy of MTV ir a musical.
That being said, you do need to have consistency in your universe rules unless you are aiming for something along the lines of Monty Python. You don’t have to explain the rules to the audience explicitly, but they notice if something changes. Like a wound that could be healed in the first movie suddenly can’t in the second. The only way you can get away with the rules changing like that is if the work is presented in a first person perspective. In that case, what they know could be wrong or change based on new information, and the audience is pulled along with them. This doesn’t work as well from a third person omniscient perspective.
On a side tangent, I did read a nice story that did a neat trick with the color of the stream. It was set in more of a fantasy realm, but the stream was originally said to be a normal color. Then, as the character goes to take a drink in the next paragraph, they talk about the red hue. The story gives you a beat to see if you notice before the author had the character catch it a sentence or two later (I actually went back right after reading the sentence mentioning it to see if it had been called red before, and it was not). Forget the book’s name unfortunately, but I thought that it was a fun bit of writing.
deliverything
@Kimi
Pedantic note: Monty Python stuff does tend to have consistency; the jokes are often based on exploring an absurd premise or other bit of silliness in a way that wouldn’t work if stuff could just randomly change for no reason.
Even exceptions can rely on this continuity; in the ending to Monty Python and the Holy Grail, the protagonists — who had been dwindling in number over the course of the movie — suddenly have an army backing them up. Although that army had actually shown up previously in a seemingly isolated joke (“get on with it”), so they’re not entirely out of nowhere.
Not sure there was any point in me making this comment, but I’m just sitting here waiting for someone, so typing this helped pass the time.
Kimi
Monty Python might have some consistency with plot/storyline/jokes (especially in the movies where there should be some general overarching plot), but I am not sure how consistent it was with world rules, if that makes more sense? A consistent storyline and consistent world rules are two different things. Monty Python tends to rely on absurdist humor and unpredictable events. For example, someone can die from a sword strike while the black knight can still hop around without his limbs. Trying to explain why one survived and the other didn’t would just ruin the joke. It is just something unexpected that subverted our expectations of what should happen. If gravity decided to randomly flip upside down in one scene, it wouldn’t be too out of place in their work. If gravity suddenly flipped in a Law and Order show, people would expect it to be a major plot point with an explanation coming as it wouldn’t fit in otherwise. Also, just because they break some “world rules” doesn’t mean that they have to break all of them.
Note: “A rule is any statement that describes how a world works. A rule dictates what regularly happens, it is something that can be counted on. We take so many rules in our own world for granted, like gravity, weather, and the fact that all humans must eat, drink water, and sleep.”
You can also have something subvert a world rule in a story as long as you provide a good reason for the subversion and keep it consistent. Unfortunately, the most common way world rules get broken is in a series, where a newer story (ie book, movie, episode) doesn’t follow the same world rule as previously shown in a series. This could due to the author just forgetting that they had established that as a rule (especially if it was a long time ago). Another reason could be that the author felt constrained by the previous rule, and decided to ignore it or get ride of it without giving a good reason why. My example of this would be Luke’s in the Last Jedi. We had an established Luke character in the original series, and there was no build up or well done explanation of how it got to where it is in that movie. It hints at stuff, but never bothers to explain the change in depth, which leaves a sense of whiplash for people who knew his original character and how his first story line ended. I would go into more detail on that, but I don’t want to spoil anyone. My problem isn’t that they did the change as much as that they failed to meaningfully address how it got there. A big change like that is like the night sky suddenly turning bright neon orange. People are going to fixate on that and not the story line that you want them to focus on. On the other hand, if it was Monty Python, it would probably be a goose’s foot or something like that and would just fit right in.
Nyzer
Normally yes, but the abrupt shift in pacing and characterization for these two combined with statements from Willis about discarding the original plans and going against the buffer…
It might not be in response to the recent Patreon numbers, but it does still feel like this story bending way too far to force a result.
NGPZ
re: going against the buffer,
that was for the intention of Muslim characters having more prominent roles in the narrative, and frankly that’s a welcome change if you ask me, (at least given what’s come of it so far re: Asm)
Doopyboop
To add on, regarding original plans, sometimes things just change in the writing process and its clear that’s what Joyce and Dorothy are for Willis. It’s a sillier example, but Darth Vader wasn’t always intended to be Luke’s father and Leia wasn’t originally Luke’s sister. As the movies were developed and came out, original plans were discarded and those ideas were put into place. I view Dorothy and Joyce as being similar, Willis went into writing and drafting up their strips, went “hm, but what if”, went through with it, and decided “okay let’s do it, this works better”. Sometimes ideas are first drafts and if your second draft includes certain things changing, I think it can work out so long as anything that doesn’t make sense or sticks out as being a bad fit are smoothed over from the transition to first draft to second.
Li
Like those parts are literally the parts with Asma in them. Not this.
If Willis is “pandering” to any part of their audience, it’s the complainers! Plot twist.
Needfuldoer
This is what disappoints me the most. Joece the complex multi-year plot thread got rug-pulled, and all the tension that could have built up to Jorothy in that time was fast-forwarded to get to “the good part”.
Li
Simply not true! Willis almost pulled the plug on Joece in 2023 and again in 2024. The version we got is actually a version with much more buildup than originally planned, not less.
People keep hearing “it could have been five years from now”, but no one seems to have paid attention to Willis also saying that they almost started this storyline two years earlier.
Yotomoe
True though I think thats an issue in and of itself. It was the exact wrong amount of time for a Lotta people. If Joe and joyce had been cut off at the start it would’ve hurt but people would’ve felt less invested. Same for if they had run their course with more buildup on the dorothy/joyce end in the background. Rather it feels like its been stopped abruptly right as its reaching its zenith and to cement it further the narrative or characters don’t really spare any thoughts to the buildup that’s just deflated. It just hits a brick wall suddenly and a Lotta people got whiplash.
Li
I’m not arguing that the pacing was above reproach, just trying again to dispel this false narrative that Willis planned to do a lot more with Joece and then abandoned it impulsively, or worse, for clicks.
Willis was planning on that conversation between Joe and Dorothy before Joe had even asked Joyce out, and as disappointing as that is for a lot of Joe/Joyce fans, it’s also the truth.
Now, I’m still hoping for (messy, possibly disastrous) polyamory, but. When discussing what was planned, we know Dorothy’s feelings for Joyce were always going to loom over Joe/Joyce. The first draft had Joe explicitly offer to step aside for her.
There is no universe where Joyce/Dorothy was a sudden impulse that destroyed Willis’s plans for Joe/Joyce: Joyce/Dorothy was always part of that plan.
(And what you’re saying additionally is part of why I’m glad it happened now instead of five years from now, but I don’t think there’s really any version of events where Joe/Joyce fans don’t feel cheated.)
Li
Like, either they never even have one (1) nice dinner together, in which case they were never given a chance.
Or they got to have one dinner together and one date (that was still under the shadow of Dorothy’s feelings having been revealed), in which case they were broken up (maybe) just when things were getting interesting.
Or they got to date for like seven years real time, in which case even more people will be assuming they’re gonna be endgame than already were.
I don’t see a scenario where the reaction from Joece fans is actually “thank goodness Willis didn’t let me get my hopes up too high”. In part because that’s just not how shipping works, the shipping brain often has high hopes even before there’s any textual reason to.
Li
(Real time being OUR years, in-universe seven years of dating with the current pace of stories comes out to about a month.)
zee
@Li it does feel like they accidentally set up more for JoJo. Like the way it was going didn’t feel temporary, it seemed like there was a lot of narrative material that was going to be explored. Also just gonna add that Willis themself admitted that DoJo ended up being canonized earlier than intended bc that’s just how their pen flowed, so to speak. In setting up the emotional climax at the protest they realized “oh. That’s arch. This is a wedding.” And decided it had to happen there and then. I believe this is commentary from the Patreon so it wouldn’t be easily accessible. But yeah, I won’t call DoJo happening impulsive but it was much earlier than intended. They also talked about all the money they would have made off of a JoJo slipshine, which I can only assume means he was at least planning to do one at some point? So, yeah the way this storyline unfolded wasn’t planned out for ages, and maybe that means more stuff with JoJo was planned initially and got scrapped.
Li
@zee: that’s exactly what I’m referring to — “ended up being canonized earlier than intended” is just not true.
I’ve read the Patreon posts and they’re all public, anyone can go read them.
What Willis actually said is: “here are two other times I almost started Joyce/Dorothy earlier” AND “when I realized the wedding imagery was happening, I went for it, having previously thought it would wait another five years”.
Like, everyone keeps fixating on that second part and ignoring the first part.
There are not two timelines, this isn’t a binary,
We got Dorothy/Joyce in 2025. We might have gotten it in 2023 or 2024. We might not have gotten it until 2030.
OR we might have gotten it at some point between 2025 and 2030, because Willis had been looking for opportunities to pull the trigger on it for two years already.
SillyGoose
At this point I suspect there’s some cheerful trolling going on, and the more we remark that we’d like to know what’s happening in the other storylines, the more “This just in: Dorothy and Joyce being cute” is going to intrude.
Maybe we’ll even cut to Steve eating cereals at some point.
Acher4
@Thag Simmons
shhhhh, don’t say facts in these threads. 😛
Astariel
I mean, we’ve seen just recently that Willis is willing to change the direction of the comic in response to audience feedback, when that happened in response to the negative reception of the protest storyline. That’s one reason why I’ve felt compelled to defend Joyrothy as vehemently as I have, because I’m worried that the strength of the negative reaction in the comments, uncountered by a similar positive reaction, could cause Willis to make another storyline change to remove Joyrothy.
Li
The difference there being that Willis agreed that Asma and their other Muslim characters were criminally underutilized.
I don’t think they’re ever going to agree that Joyce/Dorothy sucks and is boring.
zee
Yeah that’s not happening. This is clearly his otp, he’s been caping for it from time. Chill, your ship is fine. The protest storyline only got adjusted bc it crossed the line from unpopular to genuinely offensive to irl marginalized groups and trivializing irl protests for an irl genocide. I believe that’s the first and only time Willis has ever adjusted the comic in response to the audience. It was an extreme case and an anomaly. They are so not letting their audience dictate where the comic goes.
Li
@zee: letting us dictate it, no, never.
But like. Does our enthusiasm for an idea Willis hadn’t thought of NEVER affect their creative process? I doubt that.
I bet even if the Joe/Dorothy/Joyce thing doesn’t happen, we’ll get more screen time for the existing polycule on Joyce’s floor, for example, and that at least part of that will be because a lot of readers got excited over the possibility of #polyrep.
zee
I mean yeah for sure, but it’s not like dojo is actually at risk of getting written out bc it wound up being controversial. Major plot defining things like that aren’t determined by whether people like it or not. That’s the main thing I’m responding to. Cape for them if you wanna but you don’t gotta do it out of fear of losing them
nadamás
I mean, they not. They are dictated by what the author wants to happen.
Clif
If there are critics who don’t like the tempo at which you’re choosing to play and meanwhile the passers-by keep tossing dollars into your guitar case, the critics can be safely ignored.
In other news, it seems that Asma always gets no respect. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/shutit/
nadamás
I mean, it’s also because Willis like it, which is ultimately what decides what goes on the strip or not.
zee
I don’t think popularity is a factor when the strips are written a year before people get to give their opinions. Tho I am guessing Willis thought people were gonna be a lot more universally excited for this than they ended up being
Big Z
Pretty sure Willis has said on Bluesky that they especially enjoy drawing these two as a couple, and I suspect that’s the only “popularity contest” that matters here.
Liara
It’s almost like the plot was always about Joyce and Dorothy
nadamás
And honestly as far as i am concerned “the plot” (god i hate that word sometimes) it’s just whatever the characters are doing or planning on doing, there over arching narratives in the long run, but the beat of the story is generally just the characters doing, or reacting to, whatever.
Dot
Except it wasn’t, not to this extent. Joyce and Dorothy have always been central characters, but DOA has always been an ensemble piece with a great many moving parts, and lately a lot of those moving parts have been ignored or subsumed in order to have More Joyce And Dorothy.
Big Z
Honestly, the “Joyce and Dorothy were always the main characters” folks are another group I think might be reading a different comic than the rest of us.
Steamweed
“DoA” means “Dor-oyce-ing of Age”
Needfuldoer
Doycing of Age
Anna Grant
I think it’s a little early to determine if “Joyce buying a jacket” is going to be plot relevant or not.
Also a little odd to complain that the romantic stuff isn’t plot relevant in a romantic comedy.
Acher4
It’s funny that Dina bying a suit was a plot point, but Dorothy getting Joyce a jacket that makes look like her OC, is not?….
hmmmmmmmmmm?????????
zee
I wouldn’t say doa is a romcom, its a dramedy. Romcom implies it was always meant to be about a specific couple. Also again I find myself completely unable to decipher what the fuck acher is trying to say. Its impressive, my autistic ass is usually able to read tone in these comments pretty well but this one specific person absolutely stumps me every day
Nymph
Acher is saying:
Dina bought a suit to see if it caused happy-pants-feelings in Becky and no one complained it wasn’t advancing the plot (like the comment that spawned this section of the thread).
Joyce and Dorothy are talking about buying a jacket in part because it causes general happiness for Joyce and in part because it causes happy-pants-feelings in Dorothy, and people are complaining it doesn’t advance the plot.
Acher feels like this is a double-standard and unfair to Joyce/Dorothy since there were no (or few, idk) complaints about a similar situation happening to a different sapphic couple.
Of Note: I don’t necessarily agree with this take, I think it ignores some context, but that’s what they seem to be saying.
zee
Thank you for the translation, appreciate it. I also mad disagree bc Becky and Dina were taking up a very small percentage of the plot. That one plot thread was, what. Three strips long? And then we didn’t see them again for a while. It was almost background. Meanwhile this is being presented as basically the main plot. And hell this is like the first or second page of them I’ve actually found cute, but fuck, yeah I can get finding this tedious and annoying.
Acher4
just wanted to say… i’m sorry. :/
I turn to be sarcastic though a lot. just fyi.
and cynical.
And also angry towards injustice…
SillyGoose
Well, Asma agreed to go bowling in return for the girl in a leather jacket being there. So now instead of Alice, she’ll probably get Sal and Joyce, and there might be shenanigans afoot.
Jon
It’s kind of weird how knowing about the “go back and add more Asma strips” thing is sort of like a cognitohazard. If I’d never heard it, I probably wouldn’t have noticed — but because I’ve seen discussion about those being added in, it’s interesting how I notice them and notice where they’re placed in the story.
I know there are other examples of creators saying they plan to make changes based on audience feedback (Rich Burlew of Order of the Stick had a big declaration about putting more female characters in after there was a lot of discussion on the forum). webcomics make it possible to be SUCH an immediate and significant change, more than TV, film, or published books.
RassilonTDavros
Weirdly perfect timing, given how much talk of Presidential sex we’ve been having lately…
Decidedly Orthogonal
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
butting
And a horse is a horse, of course of course.
Li
“Presidential sex”
is not what’s in the Epstein files.
That’s presidential felony sexual assault at a minimum!
Bash
I think they meant Trump x Clinton