don’t work out, play team sport, more fun less likely end up with super burny muscles! Same chances of suffering a brain aneurysm while exerting yourself, and morelikely to get help fat enough to suvive.
(had a classmate in Reefer training who had to delay his enrollment 2 years after recovering from an aneurysm sufferred while working out as 26)
Big Z
Caution: advice does not apply to “indoor soccer pick-up game night” when you live within ten miles of several liberal arts colleges.
Ask me how I know, says the 40-something dude who got his ASS KICKED by 800 early-twenty-somethings college kids who were playing pick-up-game night like it was the world cup qualifiers.
Embe13
thats when you start a pickup league for 35+ like one of my old managers did 20 years ago
Big Z
I suggested that to my kid’s soccer club when I was a coach, but it never ended up happening before I moved.
I’ve had women say this about their thigh muscles describing both their actions with me and their actions with their trainers. The lesson is to stretch and hydrate.
I know that Sarah did a hard workout yesterdayish. But I prefer to believe that Sarah’s thighs are sore because she and Tony were really going at it, offscreen. Heh.
Honestly, there’s something else going on here that I didn’t really think about.
Sarah has always had serious trust issues. It was a HUGE step for her to try getting to know Joe better, for Joyce’s sake. This line from her displays, clearly, that Joyce has broken her trust. The one person she really trusted and cared for just betrayed so many of her friends and, somewhat more damning, doesn’t seem bothered by it or even to recognize that what she did was wrong.
WE know that Joyce has guilt, but all Sarah can see is Joyce’s rationalization that “It’s all for True Love, so it’s OK” and man, Sarah REALLY believed that Joyce was better than that.
Also have we really seen any guilt from Joyce? Dorothy for sure, but not so sure about Joyce
Tequila Mockingbird
I suspect it’s about to hit her like a freight train in about two to five minutes. Just as soon as it sinks in.
Searcher
I feel like everyone forgets, because she’s nice, but Joyce has absolutely no track record with relationships.
First there was the guy who she knew was gay, then the guy who she pretended to be in a relationship with, and now Joe.
How is this all going wrong???? Joyce is usually so good in a relationship!!!
HueSatLight
She does have a track record with friendships though. And she was friends with Joe. Joe was there for her, not for the newsworthy events, but for personal growth. In a way that Dorothy was not. The cheating in the relationship matters more than a week old relationship fizzling, because it’s how she’s betraying a friend.
toby ?️? (she/they)
Exactly this, yeah. She’s never been good at romance but she’s usually been a very loyal and loving friend. It’s honestly really devastating for me that my favorite character of 10 years in this comic is currently so unenjoyable for me… I can’t even see a way back for her right now bc I’m just exhausted and emotionally checked out/exhausted from this storyline. Joyce, Sarah and Joe have been my faves forever (mostly in that order) and it’s so weird that Joyce is now closer to the bottom of my list than the top. Genuinely been super sad about it bc I’ve loved this comic and Joyce Brown so much for so long. (and I’ve wanted bi joyce since day 1! and now ive got her! in the worst possible way and im not having fun at all!) its been a nightmare which is why i had to leave the patreon ? been devouring books and shows and music instead to try and wait it out
Meh. Maybe Sarah’s thighs hurt from too much riding on that high horse. I do totally agree with her, but it also feels much like some of us in the comments she’s putting a lot of heavy judgment on something I don’t think either Joyce or Dorothy have fully processed yet. Like damn 8 hours really turned them into the worst people ever, poor innocent Joe who has never done anything wrong ever (Walky sympathy not found) How terrible that Joyce ripped his heart out and crushed it right in front of him./s
Seriously though. I get her disappointment but this all feels very harsh very early. Sarah’s the girl who intentionally tried to sabotage one relationship already, and it worked. I think we can all calm down until Joyce and Dorothy actually follow through more on being cheaters.
Bedovian
I’m going to be honest, I don’t know why people keep using Sarah’s past misdeeds as a reason to ignore what she’s saying here. At worst someone being a hypocrite doesn’t change the fact that what they’re saying might be correct. At best a hypocrite is someone who is on their way to being a better person. Sarah having been wrong in the past doesn’t make Joyce or Dorothy any more correct. Sarah also doesn’t think very highly of herself but she did think very highly of Joyce. Her response here isn’t because she thinks Joyce was the worst person in the world. It’s because she trusted her and considered her to be a good person and Joyce is behaving in ways that are completely incongruous with that worldview.
Sirksome
It doesn’t ignore her statement, but you don’t think it’s an unfair double standard? As her friend I would expect at least the same leniency she received from Joyce which was a lot. Sarah even admitted to weaponizing Joyce in that situation and Joyce immediately forgave her, but when it’s Joyce behaving badly the “I knew you less than I thought.” comes out. That just doesn’t shake right with me.
I don’t agree at all with how Dorothy and (Joyce especially) seemed to be operating in the moment but it feels like you fuck up once and everyone’s ready to cook you for it. Even your sister.
eskimolos
This EXACTLY.
thejeff
There’s a difference between “you fuck up once and everyone’s ready to cook you for it” and “you are fucking up now and are making excuses and doubling down rather than dealing with it”.
Also Joyce immediately forgiving Sarah in the Jacob/Raidah situation is a bit different because at the point where Joyce forgave her, Joyce was still pursuing Jacob on her own.
Nymph
“but it feels like you fuck up once and everyone’s ready to cook you for it. Even your sister.”
I agree wholeheartedly with this, and I think it’s because basically everyone in the comic (and a lot of people in the comments) had Joyce so high up on a pedestal that there was no way for her to grow or be messy or change without everyone feeling weirdly betrayed.
Joyce is allowed to make mistakes. Expecting her to be a perfect angel all the time is a weiiiiiirdddd vibe to me, and it’s nice seeing someone else say it. (And for those who would WELL BUT me: Yes she’s cheating, yes cheating is wrong, yes I personally think it falls under allowable mistakes for someone this young and this newly queer and THIS newly in the real world.)
Sometimes it feels like people can’t decide whether to infantilize her as completely not responsible for ANY choices she makes or demonize her as responsible for the feelings of every single person around her to the detriment of her own.
Nymph
Notably, if it was JOE or WALKY hitting her with this speech I’d back him fully. This would be totally fair coming from one of the aggrieved parties, I just don’t think Sarah is one of those.
SaK
I like you, Nymph. You’re both sensible and reasonable.
Archieve
Didn’t Sarah show some remorse by the time Sarah confessed to Joyce though? it’s not like Sarah is saying she won’t ever forgive but that Joyce showing zero remorse and trying to frame her actions as good with a straight face is a side of her Sarah needs some time to process first. Also note Joyce was already trying to get with Jaocob so Joyce may have been so quick to forgive because she didn’t think it was a huge wrong.
Meagan
Yeah to me Sarah’s comment reads as that she is going to work on wrapping her mind around Joyce’s current actions and possibly come to accept her anyway.
perpetual summer
“I do totally agree with her […]” – Sirksome
The rest of your comment I do also agree with, it’s just that Sirksome didn’t really ignore anything, they just like, have a different opinion. It happens. It’s fully fair to think about the other time Joyce was involved in breaking a couple up + the way Sarah pushed for that. Like, from Sarah’s perspective this makes perfect sense because she hated Raidah & changed her mind about Joe, and the main thing is really her perception of Joyce, yadda yadda – that’s all correct but as a reader I can like, slightly raise my eyebrow at that, too.
Capt Calamity
sometimes a hypocrite is just a person in the process of changing
BMBLB
I never really understood the sentiment, “you did something bad before too, therefore you’re not allowed to make correct moral judgements.”
It’d be one thing if they were _presently_ doing one thing and saying another, but we really need to be fair and recognize that they’ve been putting in the work themselves to be better than they were when they made those *very real* mistakes.
For me, because I recognize the work they’ve put in and it’s shown serious results, why not let it be the past offenders being the ones who’re reminding what’s right to the current abusers?
When we say people like Joe and Sarah don’t get to say anything, we become the people they resent when they feel like nobody gives them a second chance (like what’s-her-name recently in the gym interaction). We become the stumbling block for that person’s growth when we ought to be celebrating positive change.
Sirksome
My point isn’t really that Sarah has no right to say her stance on this because of her own past in problematic behavior, it’s that she’s not treating Joyce the same way Joyce has shown to treat her in those situations. I’m happy Sarah has developed as a character but Joyce also gave her the room to get that development without judging her for said flaws. Same for Joe too honestly.
Odo
In which arc did Joyce treat Sarah better?
Because the scene that keeps coming to mind is the one where Sarah tells Joyce “We will always forgive you, every time”.
Drew Hargrave
When was that?
Nymphie
When she rejected christianity together with Sarah’s sister and temporarily became a little edgelord about it
thejeff
And I’m sure Sarah will forgive Joyce, but not while she’s still doing the thing.
ProfNekko
the point was that Sarah came to the realization what she did was shitty and she backed off from it. Joyce saw it too and she was witness to Sarah realizing she fucked up. But now not only is Joyce making mistakes just as bad as Sarah did she’s more trying to defend her own actions by throwing Sarah under the bus for something that she was already ashamed of doing.
eskimolos
Look, yes it takes years for us out here, but the thing Sarah did that Joyce mentioned was within the last week in-comic? She learned and grew in a week? This would be literally the first Joyce is seeing of it, it makes sense she would mention it, it literally just happened to her. I am amazed at how much everybody takes everything like actual years have passed for these kids. Joyce and Joe have been working towards this relationship not for years, but for maximum one month. They have been together maybe two to three weeks. I think we might still be in January? When the time skip happening put us into January? We had all of the Lucy x Walky drama, we had Joyce and Dorothy go out and get drunk together and the karaoke session and the party where Lucy and Jacob hooked up, and so on and so forth, in the last month in-comic.
I think despite this being the standard since the beginning of the comic, there’s still this assumption when reading that this comic operates like other stories where assumed time passes in between major events to solidify and establish character changes conveyed to the audience.
Astariel
10 days. Joe & Joyce have been together 10 days. That’s the grand relationship everyone’s ready to string her up over.
Big Z
Joe and Joyce have been friends for several months, and she knows about his insecurities about both relationships and infidelity. That’s the “kicking a friend and confidant in the teeth right after you decided to date him” everyone’s ready to express that she’s being kind of a shithead who deserves to be taken down a peg about.
Fixed that for you.
Starlight
It’s not “Sarah is right, but she’s a hypocrite”. It’s “Sarah is being a judgemental asshole, and she’s a massive hypocrite”. Talking to Joyce like this after she just came out to her would be shitty in any circumstance, but the fact she’s such a hypocrite makes it even worse.
Lumino
You know what else is shitty? Cheating on your boyfriend under the thoughtful gift he just gave you.
Nothing Sarah has said today or yesterday was wrong, and it’s EXACTLY what Dorothy and Joyce needed to hear. Now, if they actually HEARD it or if they will dismiss it remains to be seen.
deliverything
Also… some people seem to be reading this as though Sarah’s words illustrate a final and inflexible rejection of Joyce, when they could just as easily be explained as being deliberately blunt in order to shock Joyce into thinking about how her actions could affect people.
Despite her words, Sarah does know that Joyce cares about others (to the point of encroaching on Sarah’s boundaries many times as a roommate), so this read, to me, more as a way to say “This isn’t you, Joyce” in a way that might shake her more than saying that in a more straightforward way could.
Archieve
This is how I read it too. One thing that is genuinely surprising if you haven’t noticed it about Joyce Is how good she at lying to herself as well as lies by omission/technicality. I’m not surprised if Sarah finds it genuinely creepy how Joyce can go from looking so lovabley guilty to acting cool like nothings wrong the next. Sarah’s not going to stop being Joyce’s friends or found sister but it will take her a bit to process this change to her view of Joyce.
The immediate words of “knowing her less” is so weird for sure. And actually makes me not like Sarah a bit. Condemning much??
Why are Sarah and commenters acting like the Dorothy/Joyce has been going on for months behind the backs of their married spouses?
PedanticJerkass
Go back and read the first panel of the previous page.
Joyce: “Yesterday, Dorothy and I… we finally kissed, after wanting to for so long.”
Sarah is right to condemn Joyce and Dorothy here, even if it ends up being an ephemeral condemnation. (I doubt Sarah’s going to, like, request a room transfer over this or anything.)
Acher4
Lol.
Since we have seen that Joyce hadn’t understood her feelings of Dorothy in real time the previous years, this line says something different that you seem to think.
That line, actually makes Sarah be way worse for me.
Here is her little sister, accepting herself of being a bit gay/bi to her trusted person, Sarah. And Sarah acts like this?
F no.
Sarah has real nothing to stand on here.
Bisenija
Nah, Sarah is right. If my little sister was like “awesome news, I’ve discovered I’m bi by cheating on my boyfriend” I’d be like “man, c’mon, uncool” and if she kept going by “FINALLY i discovered this…we kissed yesterday and then I invited her to sleep over in my bed…” I would actually think less of her even though I’m queer lol. Joyce hasnt displayed any confusion or even awareness that what she did was kinda shitty where Sarah could see, all Sarah knows is that Joyce thinks this is awesome lol.
Kissing in the moment, yeah I definitely see how passions can run high that’s one thing. But then inviting the girl you kissed to sleep with you (nonsexual) instead of breaking up with the genuinely good boyfriend first and then doing whatever ? Sarah is right.
SmartAlec105
Being bisexual myself, the cheating is even more upsetting because there’s such a stereotype of bisexuals being cheaters/indecisive/etc. I’m looking forward to how the comic addresses that angle of this. We got a little bit of it with Danny talking to Dorothy.
Nymph
The comic has many MANY bisexuals in it and only one pair are cheating. It’s okay if bisexuals cheat sometimes, it does happen, and there’s lots of other monogamous or committed bisexual representation in the comic already.
eskimolos
This exactly. They kissed at a protest, it was night when they got back, it has been incredibly obvious to everyone that they have repressed feelings for one another, why is this being treated like this maniacal laughter, mustache twirling indecency, especially by Sarah of all people who has historically been so misanthropic, and who not long ago swore she would forgive Joyce every time?
It’s human, sure, but that doesn’t mean it’s not wildly obscene to judge other people so harshly for something you have virtually no skin in the game about yourself.
Acher4
Spent some time reading all the updates since they got back from the protest and it is literally a couple hours where their first tries was to keep themselves off of each other and then make a plan to inform Joe and Walky.
These young women who had their whole world turned upside down are literally trying to be honest and ethical and we have Sarah now and commenters during the last weeks acting like they have been cheaters for years.
Seriously???
Is this homophobic, misogynism or plain hypocrisy to act as being ethically better?
Shogeton
Sarah is working with what she sees. Which also involves that Joyce and Dorotyhy were trying (badly) to hide their cheating from her. I don’t think Joyce and Dorothy are now horrible, horrible people. But they are currently cheating on their respective partners. The kiss at least was a ‘spur of the moment’, but the sleeping together like that was a mix of both not willing to accept the pain of the break-up, combined with the unwillingness to postpone further intimacy.
Sarah’s reaction is I think appropriate and constructive. Makes it very clear that what they’re doing now, while super cute and I love to read it, is cheating. Joyce’s defense in the last comic ‘Why do you care if I cheat, you were against the relatiionship’ is, well, also not exactly something that radiates ‘I’m trying to do this in the most ethical way’
Bisenija
Sarah just saw Joyce try to lie about what’s happened, learned she did not inform her boyfriend (so, reasonable to assume lying to him to whether by omission or outright), and when she pointed out how what Joyce did was bad got told “why do you care if i hurt him??? you don’t like him” instead of “yeah I’m going to tell him” like Sarah’s reaction is very normal. I think Joyce/Dorothy is cute but it’s silly to pretend they’re trying to be ethical and honest when they’re not? Joyce did try to lie to Sarah. Ultimately characters making big mistakes makes for a better story – It’s not called Smarting of Age – but to pretend that Joyce is going about this the right way is very silly.
Charlotte
Agreed. Like, Sarah can tell Joyce as a friend that she thinks Joyce is making mistake, but otherwise it’s frankly not actually Sarah’s business.
I also find the extreme moral judgement that people here have for Joyce and Dorothy a bit much. Like, cheating is bad behaviour, they shouldn’t do it, they’re hurting people, but it’s also not, like, murder. Especially since they’ve been doing it for less than a day! Plenty of time to come clean.
(It’s also extremely common – not a justification or an excuse, just to let people know that you absolutely have loved ones who have cheated on someone, even if you haven’t ever yourself. And it’s probably not your business.)
eskimolos
It’s also the bandying about of kissing as cheating. Before I started reading webcomics, cheating pretty much exclusively meant bumping uglies, actual sex acts. Kissing wasn’t great, it was A Problem, but it was not considered Cheating, it was considered concerning behaviour that likely could lead to cheating.
This feels intensely like the American Christian shame machine? Protestantism is a helluva drug. Guess what, Dorothy and Joyce own their own bodies, they are allowed to do with them what they like, they haven’t destroyed their virtue or their honour, they realised they loved one another and kissed each other over it. Whether they’d kissed or not, this would have deeply hurt their boyfriends, but are we saying that Joyce and Dorothy could have spent a chaste night watching cartoons in bed together but with the full knowledge of their feelings but no kissing about it, and that would not have also been judged this way?
Charlotte
Exactly right.
Shogeton
I would actually consider it the reverse. The idea that ‘as long as there’s no penetration, it doesn’t count’ feels like a rather rigid way. it is cheating if you’re crossing the boundaries set by the relationship. There’s absolutely relationships where kissing and cuddling a third party would be a-okay, but Joe and Joyce aren’t that. (For that matter, there are relationships where full on sex with a third party isn’t cheating, but again, Joe and Joyce aren’t that)
And yes, if they spent the night watching cartoons without crossing those lines, obviously there would still be issues, but it wouldn’t have been cheating. Honestly, the distance they have gone, I don’t think it would make much difference to the hurt it would cause Joe if they’d gone ahead and gone all the way.
Big Z
Really? Literally every community I’ve been in, including the queer ones, has been the opposite of that — romantic kissing was DEFINITELY cheating, and demonstrating intent to cheat (“leaving your wedding ring in your hotel room to go to the bar”) was treated as “intent to cheat”.
eskimolos
And how many have been online in the last 10 years? Grew up in the 80s and 90s, it was a common thing for people to row with spouses over getting drunk and kissing someone else but nobody ever called it cheating, they called it being inconsiderate to their partner. See the line from Mr Brightside, “It was only a kiss, it was only a kiss” – that’s what people would say. That was the logic held before internet babies who’d never been physical with more than one person in their lives got hold of the concept of cheating. It reminds me a lot of when I came out as bi at 17 and my boomer mother took me to the side and told me not to say that because it made people assume I had had sex with women.
That isn’t to say kissing doesn’t mean anything, it is just that we used to operate on levels of severity, nuance, and context, and in the internet era now suddenly entire factions just want black and white reductivism to satisfy their point of view? But again, the kissing is the symptom of the actual issue, and it ends up getting used as an excuse to attack two people for realising feelings for one another at an inopportune time. Some people are that way, and what do you think should be done about it? It feels like this conversation always boils down to couched tones of whether punitive action must be taken, and if so how much. Sure, it isn’t illegal, but should their whole friend circle abandon them? Should their relationship, which could last 70 years, be doomed because they kissed before they broke up with their boyfriends? Life goes on. Yeah this can smart for years, I obsessively hated my best friend for plotting to get with my boyfriend before he dumped me. I wouldn’t talk to her for 5 months, and when I did talk to her *she* blamed *me* for moving away for the summer because I knew they were going to get together. They probably kissed, and even if they didn’t she was sending him soppy romantic emails about how right it felt to be with him, that was a year and a half relationship we had had. But does that render their kids invalid? Their marriage? Does that render the last 22 years that they’ve been together invalid? It does not, because they did actually love one another that much, and what I was angry about I would have been angry about even if they’d been completely platonic then got together. Case in point, I left a shitty ex because he was controlling and emotionally withdrawn. I got with a coworker a few weeks later, at the time I broke up with him the co-worker and I barely even talked, leaving him gave me more time to spend with other people and I found out said coworker and I had chemistry, I was with shitty ex for 8 months and the subsequent one for 2 years, but shitty ex probably still to this day believes I cheated on him with the next one, I didn’t even tell him until we had been together for three months, but for him it was like “only” three months.
People are angry and hurt because you don’t love them, or because you love someone more. I have been legitimately cheated on in the sense of my first husband actually having sex with people that were not me while we were together, he hid it for a year and a half. -that- drove me crazy and I tried to get over it, but it ended up being the reason we divorced in the end, even after 8 years of trying to work it through and rebuild trust. Again, he thinks I must have left him for someone else. The person I went to after him is my current husband, we have been together substantially longer than any other relationship I have been in, and I have had two substantial crushes on other people while with him, and I have been able to talk it through with him both times, and we are still monogamous, with the option for polyamory if anything ever worked out that way. The transparency around feelings for someone else is key, but make no mistake! it will still hurt someone, and it is the core of that hurt – not kisses.
Big Z
Sorry, I’ll be clear: I am discussing the college communities I was in during the 1990s and early 2000s. I am an Old, and not discussing internet prudery.
Formerly Glenn
This is such a weird take.
For one thing, completely misinterpreting the point of the “It was only a kiss” line in the Mr. Brightside song.
thejeff
I like the combination of “kissing isn’t cheating” with “I wouldn’t talk to her for 5 months, …They probably kissed, and even if they didn’t she was sending him soppy romantic emails about how right it felt to be with him”
Like, are we just arguing about the labels here? It would be reasonable for Joe to mad at her for months, but not to call it cheating?
Big Z
It seems like the actual argument is one for nuance, but also one where we rant about the youths and their moral black-and-white-ness.
None of which seems to be in much evidence in the actual conversation, aside from like one person who’s totally adamant that kissing isn’t cheating at all.
Perils
I’m so glad for this comment. Yes, Joyce and Dorothy are upsetting to us, the audience, who saw how Joe and Joyce made one another grow as people. However, Dorothy and Joyce are into to one another. I’m not even sure how long Joyce and Joe have been together in their version of time- it can’t be THAT long. And again. NO ONE IS SAYING CHEATING IS COOL, but with a lot of context I am way less disappointed in both Joyce and Dorothy.
Sarah can sit down though. I love Sarah, but she isn’t the arbitor of all that is “right”.
Nurts2That
I dunno how to phrase this more friendly but… It sincerely does not take an emotionally empathetic genius to realize what a sincerely shitty thing it is to cheat on someone. Especially since their reasoning was “Ugh today was so long we have to tell them tomorrow” and then spends the night snuggling and celebrating the relationship.
Joyce accepted a new, moderately expensive gift from her boyfriend – the first gift he has really given her – a guy with serious trust issues who is trying his best to be a good person… And Joyce blows him then goes right back to emotionally and physically cheating with Dorothy.
Sorry not sorry: They deserve to hear this and more.
Big Z
In particular, this is the moment that spikes the “it’s only been a few hours!” argument for me.
There was time for Joyce to go, accept a gift, engage in physical relationship actions, and then go back to sleep all cuddled/spooned up with her new secret lover.
Liara
THANK YOU! Finally someone in here speaking sense!
Astariel
Oh, thank God, some people are finally being reasonable about things. I’d also add that Sarah is not taking some sort of principled stand against cheating. She specifically says it’s wrong because Joe is good. Presumably if her opinion of Joe hadn’t changed, she wouldn’t give a shit. Notably she has nothing to say about Walky.
Formerly Glenn
To be fair, she started with this is wrong, and started talking about how good Joe was after Joyce used the excuse “You don’t even like Joe.” She was directly refuting Joyce’s “You don’t like Joe” excuse.
Also, she obviously has higher standards for Joyce than she does for Dorothy.
She doesn’t even come out really grandstanding or chastising or anything, she basically just says “I thought better of you.”
612 thoughts on “Assumed”
not someone else
Oh god thigh cramps. Yeah. Ow.
Amós Batista
I hate to return my training, after stopping for a while, because tights are the first pain I suffer.
Embe13
maybe work out in looser pants? lol (i know i am the last person who should make spelling error puns but i couldn’t resist)
Jon
When I took my first adult Ballet class, I discovered it’s possible for the soles of your feet to cramp.
Try not to make this same discovery yourself.
Sirksome
Don’t trust thigh muscles.
Erica
Don’t trust showers
Deanatay
Yeah man workouts are evil dont do
Amós Batista
Blasfemy!
Embe13
don’t work out, play team sport, more fun less likely end up with super burny muscles! Same chances of suffering a brain aneurysm while exerting yourself, and morelikely to get help fat enough to suvive.
(had a classmate in Reefer training who had to delay his enrollment 2 years after recovering from an aneurysm sufferred while working out as 26)
Big Z
Caution: advice does not apply to “indoor soccer pick-up game night” when you live within ten miles of several liberal arts colleges.
Ask me how I know, says the 40-something dude who got his ASS KICKED by 800 early-twenty-somethings college kids who were playing pick-up-game night like it was the world cup qualifiers.
Embe13
thats when you start a pickup league for 35+ like one of my old managers did 20 years ago
Big Z
I suggested that to my kid’s soccer club when I was a coach, but it never ended up happening before I moved.
sisterofdarkoneko
Joe made her sore
Risky
I’ve had women say this about their thigh muscles describing both their actions with me and their actions with their trainers. The lesson is to stretch and hydrate.
Steamweed
People always underestimating the importance of correct water amounts.
Leadsynth
I know that Sarah did a hard workout yesterdayish. But I prefer to believe that Sarah’s thighs are sore because she and Tony were really going at it, offscreen. Heh.
Erica
After all the weeks of edging, man this is satisfying
Lumino
Honestly, there’s something else going on here that I didn’t really think about.
Sarah has always had serious trust issues. It was a HUGE step for her to try getting to know Joe better, for Joyce’s sake. This line from her displays, clearly, that Joyce has broken her trust. The one person she really trusted and cared for just betrayed so many of her friends and, somewhat more damning, doesn’t seem bothered by it or even to recognize that what she did was wrong.
WE know that Joyce has guilt, but all Sarah can see is Joyce’s rationalization that “It’s all for True Love, so it’s OK” and man, Sarah REALLY believed that Joyce was better than that.
Erica
On that note, it was also a huge step for her to get to know Joyce and open her heart to her
Erica
Also have we really seen any guilt from Joyce? Dorothy for sure, but not so sure about Joyce
Tequila Mockingbird
I suspect it’s about to hit her like a freight train in about two to five minutes. Just as soon as it sinks in.
Searcher
I feel like everyone forgets, because she’s nice, but Joyce has absolutely no track record with relationships.
First there was the guy who she knew was gay, then the guy who she pretended to be in a relationship with, and now Joe.
How is this all going wrong???? Joyce is usually so good in a relationship!!!
HueSatLight
She does have a track record with friendships though. And she was friends with Joe. Joe was there for her, not for the newsworthy events, but for personal growth. In a way that Dorothy was not. The cheating in the relationship matters more than a week old relationship fizzling, because it’s how she’s betraying a friend.
toby ?️? (she/they)
Exactly this, yeah. She’s never been good at romance but she’s usually been a very loyal and loving friend. It’s honestly really devastating for me that my favorite character of 10 years in this comic is currently so unenjoyable for me… I can’t even see a way back for her right now bc I’m just exhausted and emotionally checked out/exhausted from this storyline. Joyce, Sarah and Joe have been my faves forever (mostly in that order) and it’s so weird that Joyce is now closer to the bottom of my list than the top. Genuinely been super sad about it bc I’ve loved this comic and Joyce Brown so much for so long. (and I’ve wanted bi joyce since day 1! and now ive got her! in the worst possible way and im not having fun at all!) its been a nightmare which is why i had to leave the patreon ? been devouring books and shows and music instead to try and wait it out
Sirksome
Meh. Maybe Sarah’s thighs hurt from too much riding on that high horse. I do totally agree with her, but it also feels much like some of us in the comments she’s putting a lot of heavy judgment on something I don’t think either Joyce or Dorothy have fully processed yet. Like damn 8 hours really turned them into the worst people ever, poor innocent Joe who has never done anything wrong ever (Walky sympathy not found) How terrible that Joyce ripped his heart out and crushed it right in front of him./s
Seriously though. I get her disappointment but this all feels very harsh very early. Sarah’s the girl who intentionally tried to sabotage one relationship already, and it worked. I think we can all calm down until Joyce and Dorothy actually follow through more on being cheaters.
Bedovian
I’m going to be honest, I don’t know why people keep using Sarah’s past misdeeds as a reason to ignore what she’s saying here. At worst someone being a hypocrite doesn’t change the fact that what they’re saying might be correct. At best a hypocrite is someone who is on their way to being a better person. Sarah having been wrong in the past doesn’t make Joyce or Dorothy any more correct. Sarah also doesn’t think very highly of herself but she did think very highly of Joyce. Her response here isn’t because she thinks Joyce was the worst person in the world. It’s because she trusted her and considered her to be a good person and Joyce is behaving in ways that are completely incongruous with that worldview.
Sirksome
It doesn’t ignore her statement, but you don’t think it’s an unfair double standard? As her friend I would expect at least the same leniency she received from Joyce which was a lot. Sarah even admitted to weaponizing Joyce in that situation and Joyce immediately forgave her, but when it’s Joyce behaving badly the “I knew you less than I thought.” comes out. That just doesn’t shake right with me.
I don’t agree at all with how Dorothy and (Joyce especially) seemed to be operating in the moment but it feels like you fuck up once and everyone’s ready to cook you for it. Even your sister.
eskimolos
This EXACTLY.
thejeff
There’s a difference between “you fuck up once and everyone’s ready to cook you for it” and “you are fucking up now and are making excuses and doubling down rather than dealing with it”.
Also Joyce immediately forgiving Sarah in the Jacob/Raidah situation is a bit different because at the point where Joyce forgave her, Joyce was still pursuing Jacob on her own.
Nymph
“but it feels like you fuck up once and everyone’s ready to cook you for it. Even your sister.”
I agree wholeheartedly with this, and I think it’s because basically everyone in the comic (and a lot of people in the comments) had Joyce so high up on a pedestal that there was no way for her to grow or be messy or change without everyone feeling weirdly betrayed.
Joyce is allowed to make mistakes. Expecting her to be a perfect angel all the time is a weiiiiiirdddd vibe to me, and it’s nice seeing someone else say it. (And for those who would WELL BUT me: Yes she’s cheating, yes cheating is wrong, yes I personally think it falls under allowable mistakes for someone this young and this newly queer and THIS newly in the real world.)
Sometimes it feels like people can’t decide whether to infantilize her as completely not responsible for ANY choices she makes or demonize her as responsible for the feelings of every single person around her to the detriment of her own.
Nymph
Notably, if it was JOE or WALKY hitting her with this speech I’d back him fully. This would be totally fair coming from one of the aggrieved parties, I just don’t think Sarah is one of those.
SaK
I like you, Nymph. You’re both sensible and reasonable.
Archieve
Didn’t Sarah show some remorse by the time Sarah confessed to Joyce though? it’s not like Sarah is saying she won’t ever forgive but that Joyce showing zero remorse and trying to frame her actions as good with a straight face is a side of her Sarah needs some time to process first. Also note Joyce was already trying to get with Jaocob so Joyce may have been so quick to forgive because she didn’t think it was a huge wrong.
Meagan
Yeah to me Sarah’s comment reads as that she is going to work on wrapping her mind around Joyce’s current actions and possibly come to accept her anyway.
perpetual summer
“I do totally agree with her […]” – Sirksome
The rest of your comment I do also agree with, it’s just that Sirksome didn’t really ignore anything, they just like, have a different opinion. It happens. It’s fully fair to think about the other time Joyce was involved in breaking a couple up + the way Sarah pushed for that. Like, from Sarah’s perspective this makes perfect sense because she hated Raidah & changed her mind about Joe, and the main thing is really her perception of Joyce, yadda yadda – that’s all correct but as a reader I can like, slightly raise my eyebrow at that, too.
Capt Calamity
sometimes a hypocrite is just a person in the process of changing
BMBLB
I never really understood the sentiment, “you did something bad before too, therefore you’re not allowed to make correct moral judgements.”
It’d be one thing if they were _presently_ doing one thing and saying another, but we really need to be fair and recognize that they’ve been putting in the work themselves to be better than they were when they made those *very real* mistakes.
For me, because I recognize the work they’ve put in and it’s shown serious results, why not let it be the past offenders being the ones who’re reminding what’s right to the current abusers?
When we say people like Joe and Sarah don’t get to say anything, we become the people they resent when they feel like nobody gives them a second chance (like what’s-her-name recently in the gym interaction). We become the stumbling block for that person’s growth when we ought to be celebrating positive change.
Sirksome
My point isn’t really that Sarah has no right to say her stance on this because of her own past in problematic behavior, it’s that she’s not treating Joyce the same way Joyce has shown to treat her in those situations. I’m happy Sarah has developed as a character but Joyce also gave her the room to get that development without judging her for said flaws. Same for Joe too honestly.
Odo
In which arc did Joyce treat Sarah better?
Because the scene that keeps coming to mind is the one where Sarah tells Joyce “We will always forgive you, every time”.
Drew Hargrave
When was that?
Nymphie
When she rejected christianity together with Sarah’s sister and temporarily became a little edgelord about it
thejeff
And I’m sure Sarah will forgive Joyce, but not while she’s still doing the thing.
ProfNekko
the point was that Sarah came to the realization what she did was shitty and she backed off from it. Joyce saw it too and she was witness to Sarah realizing she fucked up. But now not only is Joyce making mistakes just as bad as Sarah did she’s more trying to defend her own actions by throwing Sarah under the bus for something that she was already ashamed of doing.
eskimolos
Look, yes it takes years for us out here, but the thing Sarah did that Joyce mentioned was within the last week in-comic? She learned and grew in a week? This would be literally the first Joyce is seeing of it, it makes sense she would mention it, it literally just happened to her. I am amazed at how much everybody takes everything like actual years have passed for these kids. Joyce and Joe have been working towards this relationship not for years, but for maximum one month. They have been together maybe two to three weeks. I think we might still be in January? When the time skip happening put us into January? We had all of the Lucy x Walky drama, we had Joyce and Dorothy go out and get drunk together and the karaoke session and the party where Lucy and Jacob hooked up, and so on and so forth, in the last month in-comic.
I think despite this being the standard since the beginning of the comic, there’s still this assumption when reading that this comic operates like other stories where assumed time passes in between major events to solidify and establish character changes conveyed to the audience.
Astariel
10 days. Joe & Joyce have been together 10 days. That’s the grand relationship everyone’s ready to string her up over.
Big Z
Joe and Joyce have been friends for several months, and she knows about his insecurities about both relationships and infidelity. That’s the “kicking a friend and confidant in the teeth right after you decided to date him” everyone’s ready to express that she’s being kind of a shithead who deserves to be taken down a peg about.
Fixed that for you.
Starlight
It’s not “Sarah is right, but she’s a hypocrite”. It’s “Sarah is being a judgemental asshole, and she’s a massive hypocrite”. Talking to Joyce like this after she just came out to her would be shitty in any circumstance, but the fact she’s such a hypocrite makes it even worse.
Lumino
You know what else is shitty? Cheating on your boyfriend under the thoughtful gift he just gave you.
Nothing Sarah has said today or yesterday was wrong, and it’s EXACTLY what Dorothy and Joyce needed to hear. Now, if they actually HEARD it or if they will dismiss it remains to be seen.
deliverything
Also… some people seem to be reading this as though Sarah’s words illustrate a final and inflexible rejection of Joyce, when they could just as easily be explained as being deliberately blunt in order to shock Joyce into thinking about how her actions could affect people.
Despite her words, Sarah does know that Joyce cares about others (to the point of encroaching on Sarah’s boundaries many times as a roommate), so this read, to me, more as a way to say “This isn’t you, Joyce” in a way that might shake her more than saying that in a more straightforward way could.
Archieve
This is how I read it too. One thing that is genuinely surprising if you haven’t noticed it about Joyce Is how good she at lying to herself as well as lies by omission/technicality. I’m not surprised if Sarah finds it genuinely creepy how Joyce can go from looking so lovabley guilty to acting cool like nothings wrong the next. Sarah’s not going to stop being Joyce’s friends or found sister but it will take her a bit to process this change to her view of Joyce.
HueSatLight
Correct, not an inflexible rejection. It’s like a mirror to “Sometimes I get the feeling that you don’t [want to grow].”
Acher4
The immediate words of “knowing her less” is so weird for sure. And actually makes me not like Sarah a bit. Condemning much??
Why are Sarah and commenters acting like the Dorothy/Joyce has been going on for months behind the backs of their married spouses?
PedanticJerkass
Go back and read the first panel of the previous page.
Joyce: “Yesterday, Dorothy and I… we finally kissed, after wanting to for so long.”
Sarah is right to condemn Joyce and Dorothy here, even if it ends up being an ephemeral condemnation. (I doubt Sarah’s going to, like, request a room transfer over this or anything.)
Acher4
Lol.
Since we have seen that Joyce hadn’t understood her feelings of Dorothy in real time the previous years, this line says something different that you seem to think.
That line, actually makes Sarah be way worse for me.
Here is her little sister, accepting herself of being a bit gay/bi to her trusted person, Sarah. And Sarah acts like this?
F no.
Sarah has real nothing to stand on here.
Bisenija
Nah, Sarah is right. If my little sister was like “awesome news, I’ve discovered I’m bi by cheating on my boyfriend” I’d be like “man, c’mon, uncool” and if she kept going by “FINALLY i discovered this…we kissed yesterday and then I invited her to sleep over in my bed…” I would actually think less of her even though I’m queer lol. Joyce hasnt displayed any confusion or even awareness that what she did was kinda shitty where Sarah could see, all Sarah knows is that Joyce thinks this is awesome lol.
Kissing in the moment, yeah I definitely see how passions can run high that’s one thing. But then inviting the girl you kissed to sleep with you (nonsexual) instead of breaking up with the genuinely good boyfriend first and then doing whatever ? Sarah is right.
SmartAlec105
Being bisexual myself, the cheating is even more upsetting because there’s such a stereotype of bisexuals being cheaters/indecisive/etc. I’m looking forward to how the comic addresses that angle of this. We got a little bit of it with Danny talking to Dorothy.
Nymph
The comic has many MANY bisexuals in it and only one pair are cheating. It’s okay if bisexuals cheat sometimes, it does happen, and there’s lots of other monogamous or committed bisexual representation in the comic already.
eskimolos
This exactly. They kissed at a protest, it was night when they got back, it has been incredibly obvious to everyone that they have repressed feelings for one another, why is this being treated like this maniacal laughter, mustache twirling indecency, especially by Sarah of all people who has historically been so misanthropic, and who not long ago swore she would forgive Joyce every time?
It’s human, sure, but that doesn’t mean it’s not wildly obscene to judge other people so harshly for something you have virtually no skin in the game about yourself.
Acher4
Spent some time reading all the updates since they got back from the protest and it is literally a couple hours where their first tries was to keep themselves off of each other and then make a plan to inform Joe and Walky.
These young women who had their whole world turned upside down are literally trying to be honest and ethical and we have Sarah now and commenters during the last weeks acting like they have been cheaters for years.
Seriously???
Is this homophobic, misogynism or plain hypocrisy to act as being ethically better?
Shogeton
Sarah is working with what she sees. Which also involves that Joyce and Dorotyhy were trying (badly) to hide their cheating from her. I don’t think Joyce and Dorothy are now horrible, horrible people. But they are currently cheating on their respective partners. The kiss at least was a ‘spur of the moment’, but the sleeping together like that was a mix of both not willing to accept the pain of the break-up, combined with the unwillingness to postpone further intimacy.
Sarah’s reaction is I think appropriate and constructive. Makes it very clear that what they’re doing now, while super cute and I love to read it, is cheating. Joyce’s defense in the last comic ‘Why do you care if I cheat, you were against the relatiionship’ is, well, also not exactly something that radiates ‘I’m trying to do this in the most ethical way’
Bisenija
Sarah just saw Joyce try to lie about what’s happened, learned she did not inform her boyfriend (so, reasonable to assume lying to him to whether by omission or outright), and when she pointed out how what Joyce did was bad got told “why do you care if i hurt him??? you don’t like him” instead of “yeah I’m going to tell him” like Sarah’s reaction is very normal. I think Joyce/Dorothy is cute but it’s silly to pretend they’re trying to be ethical and honest when they’re not? Joyce did try to lie to Sarah. Ultimately characters making big mistakes makes for a better story – It’s not called Smarting of Age – but to pretend that Joyce is going about this the right way is very silly.
Charlotte
Agreed. Like, Sarah can tell Joyce as a friend that she thinks Joyce is making mistake, but otherwise it’s frankly not actually Sarah’s business.
I also find the extreme moral judgement that people here have for Joyce and Dorothy a bit much. Like, cheating is bad behaviour, they shouldn’t do it, they’re hurting people, but it’s also not, like, murder. Especially since they’ve been doing it for less than a day! Plenty of time to come clean.
(It’s also extremely common – not a justification or an excuse, just to let people know that you absolutely have loved ones who have cheated on someone, even if you haven’t ever yourself. And it’s probably not your business.)
eskimolos
It’s also the bandying about of kissing as cheating. Before I started reading webcomics, cheating pretty much exclusively meant bumping uglies, actual sex acts. Kissing wasn’t great, it was A Problem, but it was not considered Cheating, it was considered concerning behaviour that likely could lead to cheating.
This feels intensely like the American Christian shame machine? Protestantism is a helluva drug. Guess what, Dorothy and Joyce own their own bodies, they are allowed to do with them what they like, they haven’t destroyed their virtue or their honour, they realised they loved one another and kissed each other over it. Whether they’d kissed or not, this would have deeply hurt their boyfriends, but are we saying that Joyce and Dorothy could have spent a chaste night watching cartoons in bed together but with the full knowledge of their feelings but no kissing about it, and that would not have also been judged this way?
Charlotte
Exactly right.
Shogeton
I would actually consider it the reverse. The idea that ‘as long as there’s no penetration, it doesn’t count’ feels like a rather rigid way. it is cheating if you’re crossing the boundaries set by the relationship. There’s absolutely relationships where kissing and cuddling a third party would be a-okay, but Joe and Joyce aren’t that. (For that matter, there are relationships where full on sex with a third party isn’t cheating, but again, Joe and Joyce aren’t that)
And yes, if they spent the night watching cartoons without crossing those lines, obviously there would still be issues, but it wouldn’t have been cheating. Honestly, the distance they have gone, I don’t think it would make much difference to the hurt it would cause Joe if they’d gone ahead and gone all the way.
Big Z
Really? Literally every community I’ve been in, including the queer ones, has been the opposite of that — romantic kissing was DEFINITELY cheating, and demonstrating intent to cheat (“leaving your wedding ring in your hotel room to go to the bar”) was treated as “intent to cheat”.
eskimolos
And how many have been online in the last 10 years? Grew up in the 80s and 90s, it was a common thing for people to row with spouses over getting drunk and kissing someone else but nobody ever called it cheating, they called it being inconsiderate to their partner. See the line from Mr Brightside, “It was only a kiss, it was only a kiss” – that’s what people would say. That was the logic held before internet babies who’d never been physical with more than one person in their lives got hold of the concept of cheating. It reminds me a lot of when I came out as bi at 17 and my boomer mother took me to the side and told me not to say that because it made people assume I had had sex with women.
That isn’t to say kissing doesn’t mean anything, it is just that we used to operate on levels of severity, nuance, and context, and in the internet era now suddenly entire factions just want black and white reductivism to satisfy their point of view? But again, the kissing is the symptom of the actual issue, and it ends up getting used as an excuse to attack two people for realising feelings for one another at an inopportune time. Some people are that way, and what do you think should be done about it? It feels like this conversation always boils down to couched tones of whether punitive action must be taken, and if so how much. Sure, it isn’t illegal, but should their whole friend circle abandon them? Should their relationship, which could last 70 years, be doomed because they kissed before they broke up with their boyfriends? Life goes on. Yeah this can smart for years, I obsessively hated my best friend for plotting to get with my boyfriend before he dumped me. I wouldn’t talk to her for 5 months, and when I did talk to her *she* blamed *me* for moving away for the summer because I knew they were going to get together. They probably kissed, and even if they didn’t she was sending him soppy romantic emails about how right it felt to be with him, that was a year and a half relationship we had had. But does that render their kids invalid? Their marriage? Does that render the last 22 years that they’ve been together invalid? It does not, because they did actually love one another that much, and what I was angry about I would have been angry about even if they’d been completely platonic then got together. Case in point, I left a shitty ex because he was controlling and emotionally withdrawn. I got with a coworker a few weeks later, at the time I broke up with him the co-worker and I barely even talked, leaving him gave me more time to spend with other people and I found out said coworker and I had chemistry, I was with shitty ex for 8 months and the subsequent one for 2 years, but shitty ex probably still to this day believes I cheated on him with the next one, I didn’t even tell him until we had been together for three months, but for him it was like “only” three months.
People are angry and hurt because you don’t love them, or because you love someone more. I have been legitimately cheated on in the sense of my first husband actually having sex with people that were not me while we were together, he hid it for a year and a half. -that- drove me crazy and I tried to get over it, but it ended up being the reason we divorced in the end, even after 8 years of trying to work it through and rebuild trust. Again, he thinks I must have left him for someone else. The person I went to after him is my current husband, we have been together substantially longer than any other relationship I have been in, and I have had two substantial crushes on other people while with him, and I have been able to talk it through with him both times, and we are still monogamous, with the option for polyamory if anything ever worked out that way. The transparency around feelings for someone else is key, but make no mistake! it will still hurt someone, and it is the core of that hurt – not kisses.
Big Z
Sorry, I’ll be clear: I am discussing the college communities I was in during the 1990s and early 2000s. I am an Old, and not discussing internet prudery.
Formerly Glenn
This is such a weird take.
For one thing, completely misinterpreting the point of the “It was only a kiss” line in the Mr. Brightside song.
thejeff
I like the combination of “kissing isn’t cheating” with “I wouldn’t talk to her for 5 months, …They probably kissed, and even if they didn’t she was sending him soppy romantic emails about how right it felt to be with him”
Like, are we just arguing about the labels here? It would be reasonable for Joe to mad at her for months, but not to call it cheating?
Big Z
It seems like the actual argument is one for nuance, but also one where we rant about the youths and their moral black-and-white-ness.
None of which seems to be in much evidence in the actual conversation, aside from like one person who’s totally adamant that kissing isn’t cheating at all.
Perils
I’m so glad for this comment. Yes, Joyce and Dorothy are upsetting to us, the audience, who saw how Joe and Joyce made one another grow as people. However, Dorothy and Joyce are into to one another. I’m not even sure how long Joyce and Joe have been together in their version of time- it can’t be THAT long. And again. NO ONE IS SAYING CHEATING IS COOL, but with a lot of context I am way less disappointed in both Joyce and Dorothy.
Sarah can sit down though. I love Sarah, but she isn’t the arbitor of all that is “right”.
Nurts2That
I dunno how to phrase this more friendly but… It sincerely does not take an emotionally empathetic genius to realize what a sincerely shitty thing it is to cheat on someone. Especially since their reasoning was “Ugh today was so long we have to tell them tomorrow” and then spends the night snuggling and celebrating the relationship.
Joyce accepted a new, moderately expensive gift from her boyfriend – the first gift he has really given her – a guy with serious trust issues who is trying his best to be a good person… And Joyce blows him then goes right back to emotionally and physically cheating with Dorothy.
Sorry not sorry: They deserve to hear this and more.
Big Z
In particular, this is the moment that spikes the “it’s only been a few hours!” argument for me.
There was time for Joyce to go, accept a gift, engage in physical relationship actions, and then go back to sleep all cuddled/spooned up with her new secret lover.
Liara
THANK YOU! Finally someone in here speaking sense!
Astariel
Oh, thank God, some people are finally being reasonable about things. I’d also add that Sarah is not taking some sort of principled stand against cheating. She specifically says it’s wrong because Joe is good. Presumably if her opinion of Joe hadn’t changed, she wouldn’t give a shit. Notably she has nothing to say about Walky.
Formerly Glenn
To be fair, she started with this is wrong, and started talking about how good Joe was after Joyce used the excuse “You don’t even like Joe.” She was directly refuting Joyce’s “You don’t like Joe” excuse.
Also, she obviously has higher standards for Joyce than she does for Dorothy.
She doesn’t even come out really grandstanding or chastising or anything, she basically just says “I thought better of you.”