369

Kneel
Posted on October 5, 2017 by David M Willis

369 thoughts on “Kneel”

  1. Ana Chronistic

    There could be… COOTIES in there! SO GROSS

    straight up, how does Becky know and Joyce doesn’t tho

    1. Gwen

      Alcohol isn’t actually that good of a sanitizer, but that’s not really the salient point for eucharist.

      1. shadowcell

        excuse me but i will put only the cleanest, freshest, most locally-sourced and organic Jesus blood into my body thank you very much

        1. Doctor_Who

          Is it free-range Jesus blood?

        2. Plasma Mongoose

          As opposed to caged Jesus blood?

        3. Delicious Taffy

          And now I’m imagining Jesus as a character in Deadman Wonderland. I wonder what his Branch of Sin would be…

        4. CoMa

          Isn’t that obvious?…
          Well, okay, not really, but I bet it would be something with thorns. Probably shield-like (à la pacifist)…

        5. FacelessDeviant

          *Passes out pamphlets for PETD, People for Ethical Treatment of Deities*

        6. Roborat

          Oh, I thought you were going for “Deadies”, not “Deities”.

        7. FacelessDeviant

          Our sister organization.

        8. Ravian

          To be fair my church won at least a few new members when they started offering a gluten free bread option for communion. (Though we’re one of the sects that doesn’t believe that the food literally transforms into the body and blood of Christ, that’s mostly a Catholic and Orthodox thing (and kind of Lutherans)

        9. NubeTrasnochada

          http://infallible-catholic.blogspot.mx/2012/04/eucharistic-miracle-of-lanciano-italy.html?m=1

          This didn’t help to discourage the idea.

        10. Delavan

          Pretty sure Lutherans are also “Real Presence” or something similar. Definitely not full transubstantiation; Luther explicitly came out against that.

        11. Obdormio

          Yep, Lutherans believe in sacramental union: the real presence of Christ “in, with and under the forms of the bread and wine”. So not that the bread is transformed, but that it is both bread and Christ at the same time in the Eucharist.

        12. marianne

          Schrödinger’s Christ?

        13. Tacos

          Don’t get any of that GMO Jesus Blood. It taste weird.

        14. Remmington Steele

          It’s not even a decent Bordeaux FFS

      2. Deathjavu

        Alcohol isn’t a great sanitizer but saliva is also somewhat antiseptic itself, so transferring living stuff from saliva to alcohol back to someone elses’ saliva is a pretty low % event.

        1. Chris Phoenix

          Um… I’ll spare the horrific details, but fundamentalist practitioners of a mainstream religion sometimes give male babies herpes with their mouths while performing one of their rituals exactly as prescribed by the sect. Sometimes babies die from this.

          http://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-dies-herpes-virus-ritual-circumcision-nyc-orthodox/story?id=15888618

          (Christian Scientist kids die for their parents’ beliefs too, and so do the children of anti-vaxxers, so I’m not trying to pick on one (or even any) religion. But this is the one that’s caused by contaminated saliva.)

        2. Delicious Taffy

          Yeah… I’ve heard of this one, and it brings to mind several questions.

          Chief among them is “Who the fuck decided that it was a good idea to fellate an infant, for literally any reason at all?”

        3. Delicious Taffy

          I forgot to add my second, nearly as pressing question. “Why the fuck didn’t somebody stop the nutbag from my first question?”

        4. Deathjavu

          Low % doesn’t mean impossible…it just means you have to have something really nasty that can survive the saliva, the metal cup and the wine. Which…usually you know if you have something really nasty.

          If you know and you don’t care, that’s a totally different, awful problem.

      3. A Scientist

        And it’s certainly not great in as low of concentrations as there is in church wine.

        1. thejeff

          Yeah. If you’re passing around a cup of vodka, that’s a different story.

        2. HeySo

          I feel like that’d improve the church experience on several fronts.

      4. ObiKemnebi

        Eh, at my family’s Catholic church, the protest would wipe the edge of the cup with a sanitizing wipe and turn it slightly between people, so by the time a person’s lips actually touch the same part as someone who had been before them, it was basically clean. So alcoholics sanitization properties a moot point, anyway.

        1. Kryss LaBryn

          My family’s Anglican church did that as well. Also, the priest said, if the gold or silver of the goblet is pure enough, it’s toxic to most germs, so there’s scientific as well as religious reasons to have high-quality metal.

        2. Alan Lafond

          At my Catholic church, it used to be done that way, but they have now swiched to dipping the host into the wine, then serving the host on the tongue. This completely removes any chance of any germs being passed from one person to the next.

        3. Thulcandran

          We were trained to do that, too. It’s one of the main cloths that gets folded into the altar every Saturday evening – the purificator. You wipe the rim, then give the goblet a quarter-turn, which is at best a placebo unless your church has only four-eight people in it, but ya know, whatever.

          Also, Joyce at an Episcopal church is everything I never knew I wanted, and also giving me pleasant flashbacks of the first time I went into one.

    2. Kernanator

      Because I guess Joyce assumes all churches do the things her church does until told otherwise, whereas Becky actually bothers to research this stuff.

      1. Pablo360

        Imagine, doing research into *gasp* how people other than you do things and understand/interact with the world! THE HORROR, THE HORROR

      2. tim gueguen

        I wouldn’t be surprised if Becky is doing a lot of research on churches these days, hoping to find one that she feels comfortable in and that accepts lesbians.

        1. Deathjavu

          This was my guess too. I could definitely see her going to Jacob’s church again.

        2. Marsh Maryrose

          This reminds me of Maria Burnham’s
          quest to find a gay-friendly, Jesus-centered church in her new neighborhood. Her take on what appears to be an Episcopalian church: “I thought you said it wasn’t Catholic? It sure feels like it.”

    3. Reltzik

      Because Becky isn’t panicking, and has been making a point of studying Science!

      …. though probably not much if she thinks that at-most 40 proof wine will act quickly enough to sanitize the cup between sips.

      1. JetstreamGW

        … What kind of wine are you drinking that’s 20% ABV? o.O

        1. Reltzik

          None. That was erring on the side of high ABV to make the point.

        2. Greg

          At my Episcopal church the ‘wine’ is a mix of donated port, so it may well get up to that high of an ABV.

        3. Reltzik

          Well, if the priest carries the cup around, you probably want the wine to be port-able.

        4. tyersome

          I guess that depends on whether he’s considered a Zinfandel?

        5. Agemegos

          Catholic rules allow up to 18% brandy to be added during fermentation so that the wine won’t go sour during trans-port.

    4. Opus the Poet

      Because when Toedad started talking about pulling becky out of college she researched other churches to see if there was one that would accept her as a lesbian.

      1. Ana Chronistic

        ya know, I’m a bit mixed about the idea of churches advertising on their websites or wherever, “YO, we totes serve REAL alcohol for communion!! GF wafers available too!!”

        I mean, whatever brings in the flock, sure!

        1. Ana Chronistic

          (just saying this never occurred to me, but then I haven’t researched any b/c Church of Carla doesn’t need advertising)

        2. Stella

          Ha, church websites are notoriously *the worst*. I love my current Episcopalian church, which I discovered through a website called gaychurch.org , but from the church’s website would you have known their beliefs about important issues? Not really. Would you have known that they have gluten-free and alcohol-free eucharist options? You betcha.

        3. Delicious Taffy

          …Holy fuck.

          I was at Denny’s a few hours ago, looking at the menu and wondering what the big orange “GF” next to some items was for. It only just clicked that it means “gluten free”. Maybe not the wildest of revelations, but I was staring at the letters in confusion for like 15 minutes.

      2. JessWitt

        Is that canon? Too tired to clarify that.

    5. Lumino

      Honestly, and this might just be the Catholic in me, the fact that Joyce is the only one with her hands not folded, when we know she does so in prayer normally, is kind of bugging me.

      Disrespectful, Ms. Brown.

      1. Smiling Cat

        Keep in mind that Joyce would consider you disrespectful simply for being Catholic…

        1. Zerodime

          Which I find ironic as I as an ex-catholic, alwaays thought that catholicism was closer to jesus than evangelism/protestant which was “after” and “a part of” catholicism.

        2. thejeff

          In theory, according to the protestants, they’re a return to the original intent after it was corrupted into Catholicism.

          I’m sure every denomination thinks their way is closer to Jesus. If they didn’t, why would they do it that way.

      2. begbert2

        She’s not praying; she’s lurking. There’s different protocols for lurking.

        And honestly if I were you I’d be more worried about how she’s shouting at people. Shouting at people, which highly respectful, can be a tad disruptive.

  2. Stephen Bierce

    Pretzel pose, Joyce. Pretzel pose.

  3. Opus the Poet

    No there is a religious exemption for under-age drinking

  4. AnvilPro

    Nice to see Becky act so calm and collected when Joyce is the one freaking out and acting hyper. They really do balance each other out.

  5. Reltzik

    Actually, Joyce, I’m pretty sure that underaged Communion wine is legal.

    1. Pablo360

      Yep, although I’ll also add that it’s really nothing to write home about

      1. A Scientist

        Our stuff was pretty good, if I do say so myself.

        Of course, that was my unrefined middle school palate talking.

        1. Lumino

          Always thought it tasted like cough syrup.

      2. thejeff

        In Joyce’s case, I’d say it’s something to explicitly avoid writing home about.

        1. Pablo360

          …yeah, I certainly wouldn’t want Carol finding out if I were Joyce. Hank’d be cool with it I feel, because Hank seems to be pretty cool, but he wouldn’t keep this a secret from Carol, and Carol is Carol.

    2. brionl

      Now I’m thinking Underaged Communion Wine would be a great name for a band.

      1. JessWitt

        A Christian band? *waggles eyebrows*

      2. Dusk Rain

        My sister and I just spent five minutes giggling at this so thank you.

    3. BBCC

      Depends on the state. Some make exemptions for Communion.

      1. BBCC

        Wait, shit, I thought you said illegal.

      2. Pat

        It’s such a small amount that they don’t really have to.

    4. Sunny

      Wouldn’t it be mostly grape juice if it hasn’t aged?

  6. Nono

    ALCOHOL VS COOTIES: FIGHT

    1. Cephalo the Pod

      Followed by KNEELING BEFORE GOD versus bowing to God’s wrath.

  7. King Daniel

    So this guy’s gonna get a tag, right

    1. Marsh Maryrose

      My first three brain autocompletions for “The Revererend ____” were:

      William Barber
      Al Sharpton
      Ivan Stang

      1. Stella

        Hahaha! Solid.

        Unfortunately, Episcopalian religious leaders still use Catholic titles (Father, Mother), which weirds me out a bit. So Father_____ might bring to mind other names.

        1. Agemegos

          Interesting. Anglican ministers in the UK and Australia don’t. They go by “the Reverend Mr” or “the Reverend Dr” depending on whether they have a doctorate or merely a masters. And informally as “vicar”, “rector”, or “padre”, depending on things. And sometimes they have a higher title: we had an “Archdeacon Tress” here for a while (who had been “a gunner in the First World War and a canon in the Second”, but that’s another story).

        2. DB

          Anglican ministers *may* opt for father, it depends on the tradition of the particular church.

        3. hof1991

          Vicar, rector and curate describe slightly different positions in the Anglican / Episcopalian Church. It can escalate quickly.

          In the Episcopal Church in the United States of America, the “rector” is the priest elected to head a self-supporting parish. A priest who is appointed by the bishop to head a parish in the absence of a rector is termed a “priest-in-charge”, as is a priest leading a mission (that is, a congregation which is not self-supporting). “Associate priests” are priests hired by the parish to supplement the rector in his or her duties while “assistant priests” are priests resident in the congregation who help on a volunteer basis. The positions of “vicar” and “curate” are not recognized in the canons of the entire church. However, some diocesan canons do define “vicar” as the priest-in-charge of a mission; and “curate” is often used for assistants, being entirely analogous to the English situation

        4. Kryss LaBryn

          My mum grew up in post-War Britain, and one place the family lived in was called “the Old Rec,” as it had been the Rectory for the local church before it was replaced a few hundred years before.

          The Old Rec (which always sounded like “The Old Wreck” to me and may have been used thusly occasionally by the inhabitants) was haunted, so Mum always wanted to sleep with one of the family’s two pekes in the room with her, despite Gran’s wishes to the contrary.

          I am not positive, but it may have been that house that had the ghost of a little Victorian girl in the front hallway. I can’t say for sure, though, because Mum lived in several places over there, and most of them (being old) seem to have been haunted, ha ha.

          More or less OT, sorry; the reference to rectors made me think of it (the rectories, of course, being the housing the church supplied to its rectors).

  8. Benet

    “I’m open-minded, as long as it’s only slightly different to my previous experience”

  9. newllend(henryvolt)

    Seems like church would be the only place kneeling is welcomed at now a days huh.

    1. tim gueguen

      Given how religious in character a lot of American patriotism is it’s surprising in a way that kneeling isn’t standard practice for things like the national anthem.

    2. Agemegos

      We kneel in church, when saying our prayers, and while being knighted by HM. Whence then the idea that kneeling is not a gesture of respect?

      1. NotPiffany

        The idea comes from the idea that minorities are supposed to refrain from bringing attention to themselves and the problems they face, so the majority can continue to deny oppression.

        1. Agemegos

          Sorry. I was being disingenuous for ironical purposes.

        2. NotPiffany

          Oops. With the bit about being knighted, I couldn’t tell if you were being facetious or if you were simply a confused citizen of a Commonwealth country.

    3. JessWitt

      +1. Zing.

      1. King Monster

        Move every Zing.

  10. Passchendaele

    damnit I can’t stop laughing at panel 2, it’s like a summary of my life. XD

  11. Bagge

    And she is STILL trying. I’m so impressed by Joyce.

    1. Pl0x

      This kind of comment sets itself up for that one joke, which has been told again and again (well, 2 times, as far as I know). I…shall refrain from saying the super-obvious joke. I shall spare you all from the pain. Because I am a merciful person.

      1. Pl0x

        although i wouldn’t be against someone else doing it

    2. Roborat

      Yes, she is very trying.

      1. Bagge

        Thanks, I desperately tried to figure out what joke Pl0x was going for

        At the moment I think Jacob feels she is bewildering rather than trying… I’m SURE he has no other complicated feelings brewing for her…

        1. Roborat

          Well, I waited, but nobody else stepped up.

  12. Saaaam

    I dipped it back when I took communion. Felt less gross.

  13. brionl

    Am I the only one seeing ads for the My Little Pony movie?
    “Princess Celestia died for your sins.”

    1. Marsh Maryrose

      And now I’m wondering why I haven’t yet seen creepy fanart of Sonic the Hedgehog falling on his knees, weeping, before a crucified Princess Celestia….

      …It’s only a matter of time, isn’t it? In fact, it’s probably already out there.

      1. Bicycle Bill

        Rule 34 says it is.
        And Rule 35 says that if it isn’t, it soon will be.

      2. Delicious Taffy

        Christian Sonic the Hedgehog fanart is a fuckin’ trip.

  14. newllend(henryvolt)

    Not going to lie seeing Joyce flail around like a fish out of water is entertaining.

  15. skart

    If there were a platonic ideal form of “reverend”, it would look like that.

    1. Marsh Maryrose

      Truly an Impressive Clergyman!

      1. Agemegos

        Self-tonsuring!

  16. Keulen

    As an atheist, “This is weird” summarizes how I feel at any kind of religious service.

    1. Deathjavu

      Tell me about it. Last one I went to was a cousin’s wedding, and I kept wondering why the middle easterners on all the murals were near paper-white.

      And why all the building materials were super expensive and fancy when by their own standards that money should go to the poor.

    2. NotPiffany

      I’ve been to two services at my maternal grandparents’ Lutheran church: once when we visited for their 60th anniversary, and a second time a couple of years later at Grandma’s funeral. The funeral, where Grandma’s corpse was in a coffin next to the altar, was the less creepy of the two.

    3. Reltzik

      Me too. So, basic guidelines. If no one’s writhing on the floor speaking in tongues, no one’s passing around venemous snakes (refrigerated or otherwise), there’s no sex rituals or ritual nudity, there’s no rules about your underwear, there’s not a lot of bones-and-skeletons-and-death imagery beyond a guy on a cross and maybe some stained glass, no one’s using something like a lie-detector machine or an EKG, and the only drug use is a sip of mildly alcoholic beverage…

      … then it’s probably normal by religious standards.

      …. probably.

      1. Neeks

        You forgot a “speaking in tongues” reference.

        1. Delicious Taffy

          …no?

        2. Reltzik

          No.

  17. Kernanator

    Fun fact: all the churches I’ve had communion at gave you the option between wine and grape juice. Usually it’s white wine and purple juice. Once, a church I went to used red wine and purple juice, but they changed it after they mixed up which cup was which.

    1. Arian

      That does strike me as odd. All the communion wine I’ve ever had was port. *White* wine? Weird blood.

      1. Gaia

        Well you see Jesus was a pure white guy so his blood must also be white, as any other color then white is pure evil.

        Praised be white Jesus!

        1. Delicious Taffy

          Damn it, I was going to make that exact joke, but second-guessed it.

        2. Gaia

          Oh I’m still second guessing it, if any mod dosn’t get the over the top sarcasm I was going for, I’m boned. 😛 (Which I’m definitely not trying to reinforce with this comment…nope not at all)

      2. Agemegos

        White blood of Christ is less inclined to stain the altar-cloth.

        1. Gaia

          Nonsense, if anything the blood of Christ purifies all things… bloody heretic.

  18. Nym

    I’m really enjoying Becky in this storyline. I have high hopes for her experiences with the Episcopal church.

  19. TheKelliestKelly

    I’m on Joyce’s side. The entire church sharing one goblet sounds like a good way to get oral herpes

    1. Joyous ☿

      Agree. Disregarding the stigma*, I’ve gone my whole life so far without having to deal with cold sores, and I don’t want to start now

      1. Inahc

        I’ve gone my whole life dealing with them (passed down from my mother – who told me it was something else, so I had no idea I was carrying an infectious disease until I was like 25) and yeah, they’re irritating and stupid.

        Then again, you could already have the virus and just never get any symptoms. That’s a thing too. Fucking glitter disease indeed.

        1. JessWitt

          My sores come about from Vitamin C deficiency. If I skip a few days without taking the bitter C pill, at least one appears.

        2. Inahc

          bitter? o.0 vitamin c doesn’t have to have any bitterness. when I was a kid I had delicious fizzy tablets. I’d let them dissolve on my tongue then; these days that’s a bit too intense so I put them in water like you’re “supposed” to. 🙂

        3. JessWitt

          I remember sweet tasting Vitamin C pills too. But I gotta settle for bitter now, it’s, er, more affordable.

        4. Inahc

          ah. that sucks. and they’re probably *all* more affordable than fresh fruit these days :/

    2. Gaia

      Eh, herpes isn’t a big deal, it’s a minor irritant from time to time at best.

      Source: Adam Ruins Everything

      1. Agemegos

        There is herpes and there is herpes. Herpes zoster is pretty bad, and when and optic nerve is involved the patient can lose the sight in the affected eye.

      2. Kryss LaBryn

        A friend ended up with herpes. She and her guy were in a monogamous relationship; used condoms for over a year; and he was her first. They thought he was clean.

        Turns out he was an asymptomatic carrier.

        She describes it as being like the worst bladder infection you can imagine, then cranked to eleven. :/

        Kids, even if you think you’re clean, get everyone involved an STI blood test before ditching the protection, m’kay?

  20. Barf Ninjason

    Daigh-umn, Joyce, yoo shore lub yore roo-teens, doncha

  21. DarkoNeko

    This is such a trainwreck and I can’t stop watching

  22. Luzahn

    I forget, do Evangelicals have some sort of alcohol prohibition? Or is this just about Joyce being underage?

    1. NotPiffany

      I think that depends on the individual church. If I remember correctly, Joyce and Becky used to go to a non-denominational church, and those all differ from each other.

    2. Stella

      Anabaptists / Puritan-based groups do. So, if you’re in a “dry county” in America (one where selling alcohol is de-facto illegal as permits are never granted, even to chain grocery stores) odds are that county’s religious majority is Amish, Mennonite, Quaker, Shaker, Baptist, or one of the post-Puritan fragmentation denominations.

      The Puritans broke up prior to the 1700s when it became clear that America was never going to be a theocracy; Puritanism, based largely on the teachings of Erasmus, believed that God’s will for the state was to punish sins, and church and state should not be separate. They were also very much about demonic activity happening on Earth *right now*, and many American “demonic possession” scary stories had origins in Puritan mythology. Much of the Religious Right sprung up from churches with Puritan origins, which were often either Presbyterian, Baptist, or non-denominational but evangelical.

      So, right. Not all prohibit alcohol, but many do.

    3. thejeff

      According to some of Joyce’s previous comments on alcohol, it’s an underage thing, not a religious thing.

  23. butts

    “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. I offer you a chance for greatness, Isra-El. Take it! You will bow down before me! No matter that it takes an eternity, you will bow down before me – you, and one day, your heirs!”

  24. Sionyx

    It’s not ALWAYS alcoholic, depends on the church. And when it IS alcoholic the proof is usually something infinitesimal, anyway. Every church I’ve taken communion at wipes the chalice after each person drinks, and if you’re sick there’re paper cups in the sacristy, just let the minister know. I’d say you can avoid putting your mouth on the chalice by dunking your communion wafer in the wine (which makes that little tasteless disc actually something worth eating…), but if the church uses bread that could lead to crumbs in the Blood of Christ…

  25. Derek

    Protestants don’t kneel??

    1. Luzahn

      I’d assume it depends on denomination.

    2. Carms

      in my anglican school we used to go up to the front- those who were appropriately levelled up in christ took communion, a little wafer that they dipped in the cup and ate, those who weren’t put their hands behind their backs and just got a blessing.
      And lots of us just sat cos we were heathen children.

      1. Kryss LaBryn

        That’s what our Anglican church did as well. And you could take the Confirmation classes at 17, and thereafter partake in Communion, legal drinking age of 19 be damned. This wasn’t, you know, drinking; this was a tiny sip for religious purposes. Doesn’t even give you the slightest buzz, either; and I am a cheap drunk.

    3. Dellaran

      We knelt at the rail in my Methodist church. It looked a lot like what Joyce et al. are doing.

      1. Sunny

        I went to a methodist church, too, can confirm.

    4. missilentmurmur

      I can say Calvinists don’t.

    5. Minotaur

      Lutherans do. At least they do in the Netherlands and Denmark.

      1. buli-buli

        depends on the Church. I’m LMS and my home church we just went up and received the Eucharist wafer (or a blessing) while standing at the front of the line, before moving over to the usher with the wine (disposable minicups with wine on the outside grape juice on the inner circle, then the shared cup. You chose which). Current church we kneel in the style presented in comic.

  26. Shiro

    My dad’s church uses a silver cup, which…supposedly has antibacterial properties? I def had to google that just now to make sure I wasn’t misremembering, and I guess it’s true.

    1. OnyxIdol

      Some metals do desinfect themselves, copper and brass for example. But afaik, this process takes a few hours.

  27. Carms

    the best socialised in her homeschool group, presenting, JOYCE BROWN
    (somehow not Becky who is a ROCK, were they somehow not in the same group??)

    1. Shiro

      Becky probably was considered too loud, too brash, not ladylike enough, needs remedial femininity lessons by being around good Christian girls etc

    2. BBCC

      Best socialized = least likely to rebel.

      1. Bagge

        Not that it worked out EXACTLY as intended…

        http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/neighbor-2/

        http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/strength-2/

      2. bhtooefr

        Bingo. Best socialized didn’t mean most socialized, it meant best indoctrinated for the indoctrination to survive the atheistic wastelands…

        …or so they thought.

    3. MM

      Hey, at least she asked politely instead of having another supersonic freakout.

    4. Reltzik

      Maybe “most socialized” means most likely to obey a leader who’s dictates include free health care, not fighting taxes, giving everything you can spare to the poor and maybe some beyond that, and communal property?

      ….. no?

      …… HUH.

      1. CJ

        The words “dictate free health care” ring a lot of bells but none I like to hear.
        “Fight taxes” too. Though not all taxes are fair or evenly leavied (Astrid Lindgren wrote a humorous short story when she was annoyed with being taxed above what she found reasonable), but, you know,
        no taxes=no roads without toll, no school without cost-recovering fees, no swimming pool with affordable pricing, no publicly funded research, no public health control, an army financed by looting, police financed by bribes only, …

        1. Reltzik

          I was…. going for the Jesus-comparison joke?

          Additionally, the communal property thing is less Socialism and more Communionism.

        2. Joe Covenant

          Reltzik said “NOT fighting taxes…”, not “Fight taxes”

        3. CJ

          It read to me that not fighting taxes was supposed to be a bad thing.
          Maybe I got lost in the negations? Not really a native speaker and I replied before being fully awake.
          In case I misunderstood: Sorry.
          The theory of political framing says that even obviously wrong connections get belived when repeated often enough and so I sometimes feel compelled to point out why an organized democratic state based on rule of law is a useful thing to have.

        4. thejeff

          I like taxes. They buy me civilization.

        5. Kryss LaBryn

          Hear, hear!

          Now, if only we could get something like a flat tax rate, applied equally across the board to everyone making over say the poverty line–or at least get the 10% and especially the 1% to just pay theirs as well as the rest of us… :/

        6. thejeff

          God no. No damn Flat Taxes.
          Unless you want your rate to go way up and the rich to pay far less.
          More brackets and higher marginal rates on the top end.

        7. Reltzik

          WELL-APPLIED taxes buy us civilization, yes, and hurray for that.

          Poorly-applied taxes buy us the means to destroy civilization because some politician wanted more obsolete tanks built in his district.

        8. thejeff

          That’s not taxes. That’s spending. Cut the taxes and they’ll borrow money to build more obsolete tanks in the district.

        9. Reltzik

          Okay, point.

      2. Dusk Rain

        I get it! Good one!

  28. Qube

    the blood of christ has backwash in it

    1. Needfuldoer

      And crumbs from the little pieces of body everybody’s eating.

      1. King Monster

        And a few beard/mustache hairs because of one or more of those random goers who would poorly last minute fix up their facial follicles.

        Gotta’ tame that lion better guys.

        1. Gaia

          If only we had an immune system.

        2. Agemegos

          Have we told them about the Kiss of Peace yet? The Pax?

        3. Cybersnark

          The G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate that we added to the air processors?

  29. Mr D

    Christ Joyce, I’m a raging atheist and even I can stay quiet and LOOK like I care when I get taken to church agaisnt my will.

    1. Cmd1095

      As an atheist, you are better equipped to deal with differing beliefs than a fundie, you base your actions on rationality and science, a fundie bases theirs off of a faith that is their entire identitiy, you can go to a church and not have its teachings threaten your very sense of self, but for a fundie going to a different church does give that threat

      1. reaver

        As an /ADULT/ Joyce is perfectly equipted to NOT YELL IN CHURCH.

        1. timemonkey

          As someone whose social growth has been severely stunted by her upbrining she absolutely is not perfectly equipped.

        2. Reaver

          My Social growth was severely stunted, I grew up in a near identical church situation, and even I knew not to yell “THIS IS WEIRD, OH MY GOD WHAT IS THAT!?” In a different church, cuz you don’t yell in church 🙁

        3. timemonkey

          And if you recall how every other member of her church has reacted to things from other religions then screaming and yelling about how they’re wrong is exactly what she’s been taught.

      2. Minotaur

        I used to be in a relationship with an atheist who was very much not how you describe atheists, more like how you describe fundies. Differences between individual people are, as a rule, a lot bigger than differences between categories of people.

        1. Emily

          Oh yeah there are atheists who are just as unbearable and smug as the worst kind of fundamentalist.

      3. Agemegos

        Well, some atheists are raging arseholes. But for the rest: if you believe all church services are empty ritual none of them seem really alarming. But Joyce may [have been brought up to] believe that some rituals are literally Satanic or insulting to God, and therefore truly dangerous.

    2. Deathjavu

      Joyce very much wanted to go to church. Just one that was identical to her old church.

    3. Kaunisenkeli

      Heck, you don’t even have to look like you care at some churches, but I mentioned that on yesterday’s strip.

  30. All-Purpose Guru

    You don’t have to worry about the guy next to you being sick. You have to worry about the guy 3 people away from you because they turn the cup 1/4 turn each time

    1. Bagge

      There is a lot more game theory to religious ceremony than could be expected.

      1. Neeks

        Especially if you believe only about 100k are getting into heaven

  31. BBCC

    For those interested, the gofundme for Jon Rosenberg’s son was funded sometime last night.

    1. Shiro

      Yay!

    2. Stella

      I’m so glad! <3

    3. Chris Phoenix

      Yay! Such a great country we live in! When a kid begs for a pain-free life on the Internet (because no universal health care), sometimes he’s successful!

      https://medium.com/the-nib/love-to-live-in-the-capitalist-dystopian-hell-world-4d701d164818

      1. Gaia

        50 bucks says that we will be privatizing lawyers in the near future.

        If you can’t afford a lawyer you should’t get raped god dammit!

        1. bucket

          I dunno, this seems to be the de facto case already. Many public defenders are so overloaded and underpaid that it’s as if you don’t have a lawyer if you can’t afford a private attorney.

  32. Chronos

    I wondered how she’d react to this. I can’t say I’m too surprised.

    1. Chronos

      Side note: other people who’ve been to Catholic masses, did they give you wine along with those wafers? They never did that part in the Catholic churches that I’ve been to in the part of Virginia I’m from.

      1. William Leonard Reese Jr.

        They did. You got the wine first and then the Wafer off to the side as you walked off.

        1. Chronos

          Huh. Wonder why the ones I went to only did the wafers.

      2. Lumino

        Depends on the church. Every one I ever went to was wafers first and wine off to the side, varying by church.

        Some churches had large populations and so they only offered the wine at the really early masses with less people. But yeah, we did the nice long lines up the aisles, receive communion in your hand or upon your tongue (that one always weirded me out) cross yourself or step sideways and bow to the altar and then circle around back into your pew.

        1. Chronos

          Having it put on my tongue grossed me out, too. They strongly discouraged having to put it in your hand, though I still insisted on doing it as such.

        2. Gaia

          The idea behind putting it on your tongue is that you are not worthy of giving your self the body of Christ.

      3. OnyxIdol

        I don’t remember ever getting wine when I went to communion. If I remember correctly, only the pastor drank wine in my hometown. But it’s been ages so I may be mistaken.

      4. bucket

        Sometimes yes, sometimes no, depends on the Catholic church. The one I went to (in CT) growing up didn’t; they had a communion rail like is shown in the comic, and the priest and deacon served the host from the ceborium (bowl), with an altar boy holding a gold platen under your chin. My cousin’s church in upstate NY you stood in line, got a host from the priest/deacon, then walked over and drank from the chalice held by a congregant volunteer.

      5. Eldritch Gentleman

        Catholic-raised Polish guy here. Nope, we only get wafers. The priest gets all the delicious wine.

  33. Romanticide

    Fun fact: at least in Mexico, catholics don’t get wine unless is their first communion or something (so yes we take a zip when we are las young as… 9), only comunion wafers either on pieces or in small circles. and you are not supposed to chew them.

    1. Tacos

      It must vary by church because I remember they’d always offer wine at church when we’d go visit our relatives in Mexico.

      1. Obdormio

        Prior to Vatican II, it was the established practice of the Catholic Church to only offer communion in one kind to the congregation, reserving the wine for the clergy. This was one of the things early protestants/reformers had a problem with.

        The thinking behind it is that each of the species transform into the fullness of Christ, so even if you only eat the bread, you receive body, blood, soul and divinity.

        Vatican II opened for taking communion in both kinds to everyone, at the discretion of each bishop. Some bishops have given blanket permissions to give the congregations both kinds all the time, others are more restrictive.

    2. Arianod

      Well, there’s no need to chew them since they’re… wafer thin, and they’ll dissolve in your mouth pretty quickly. But yeah, I remember the times I was in church and only the priest would get to sip from the wine. Rather stingy if you ask me.

      1. Kryss LaBryn

        It’s only a wafer-thin wafer!

    3. BBCC

      My high school took us to a yearly mass, plus one special one for freshmen. Because these weren’t public masses, just ones for our high school, they gave us grape juice, but I’m told it was normally wine. The communion was like a circle puffed rice flat cookie. It didn’t taste like anything – I think it was compressed baking powder. I dunno if we were allowed to chew or not. I did, but I was later told by my friend I shouldn’t have taken it in the first place because I wasn’t confirmed. Whoops.

  34. Arianod

    Freakout intensifies!

  35. MapleAmber

    Oh, Joyce…

    Taking the cup is really not that big a deal. They wipe it well, and at our church it’s 18%. You’ll be fine!

    1. Dellaran

      Wow, talk about being “moved by the spirit”…

    2. Chronos

      36 proof more Christly than the leading alternative!

    3. CJ

      Whatever are you using? Port? Sherry?
      Normale wine has much less alcohol and everybody else talked about watered down wine?

      1. Gaia

        Some churches still make their own wine, so the % gets to liqueur levels.

        The Catholic church near me gives out 38% wine, which I would argue isn’t wine anymore, but oh well at least it’s sterile.

    4. Katherine

      No idea what the APV of the wine at my Episcopalian church is, but I do know that they wipe the rim of the cup with a cloth soaked in Everclear. lol

      However, I still intinct (dip the bread in the wine), because I feel more comfortable doing that.

  36. Kamino Neko

    The fact that she didn’t go into a rant about how alcohol is the devil’s drink, and Jesus drank grape juice is a point in Joyce’s favour.

    1. Pluto

      Back during the Badtimes Party, before it went Badtimes, she stated that she doesn’t see anything wrong with drinking alcohol once a person is of legal age, so her church probably isn’t inherently anti-alcohol

  37. William Leonard Reese Jr.

    Now the strange thing to ME is the Father bringing the Wine and Wafers TO the worshippers. We always got out of the Pews into the center lane, top rows first of course, and then after getting the Blood circling around the pews to the flesh on the side to uniformly and neatly get back into the pews without conflict of accident.

    1. Agemegos

      I think they have filed up to the front and are kneeling at the rail.

      1. Reltzik

        And yet Joyce almost DE-RAILED the kneeling by railing against it.

        *flees for dear punning life*

      2. William Leonard Reese Jr.

        Rail? . . . .Right not a Catholic church, different lay out and traditions.

        1. Agemegos

          Many (but not all) Catholic parishes removed their altar-rails after Vatican II.

          The altar-rails (or “chancel rails”) were originally installed to replace the earlier rood screens (or “choir screens”) either as a Protestant reform or (in Catholic churches) after the Council of Trent.

        2. bucket

          In the Catholic church I attended growing up, the building was built in the 1970s (after Vatican II), but the head priest was old-school enough that he had the church built with the communion rail.

  38. chris73

    Well I’m sure Jacob is real glad Joyce came along

  39. reaver

    Joyce stop being terrible, for fucks SAKE.

    1. Kaunisenkeli

      Her fundie programming is still being flushed. This is just another piece slowly being flushed (this may be a double or triple flusher, though, and a plunger should be kept handy).

      1. reaver

        This isn’t a matter of fundie flushing, she’s an adult, she KNOWS how to behave in public, yelling in church, stating to the guy who BROUGHT HER TO HIS CHURCH that his means of worship is weird, and YELLING during PRAYER?

        All things she KNOWS not to do.

        1. Inahc

          judging by the lack of scathing looks from background characters (wait have we even seen any besides the priest?), I’m assuming that the yelling is conveniently using comic logic, making it inaudible to everyone but the main characters. because, yeah, yelling in church just…. does not compute. (…unless it’s the church from Blues Brothers)

        2. Reaver

          No, we’ve not seen any other people’s reactions, but she’s clearly yelling at the person sipping wine…and importantly, she’s shouting and making /Jacob/ Feel bad and foolish for thinking this grown woman could behave.

        3. Needfuldoer

          She’s freaking out because they’re all doing it ‘wrong’. It’s easy to let that override deliberate behavior.

        4. Agemegos

          She perhaps also “knows” that a lot of what they are doing is literally Satanic.

    2. Emily

      I gotta admit if you asked me to drink out of the same cup as dozens of strangers I’d be pretty weirded out too.

      1. thejeff

        Yeah, this isn’t even “Joyce being weirded out by strange religious rituals”. This is “Joyce’s food hangups” kicking in.

    3. Sunny

      That’s not how you spell “adorable”.

      1. Reaver

        When she starts BEING adorable and not 5 years old, then I will call her as such.

  40. JessWitt

    A lapsed but still attentive Catholic myself, I have been weirded out at the few times I went to a non-denominational church.

    The oddest thing was the joyously exuberant singing, which was so tiresome. I’m used to just point-blank hymns with piano accompaniment.

  41. Pl0x

    I realized that the last time Becky was at church, she was forced to wear an ugly pink dress and pink shoes. Now she is wearing her “butchest duds” of her own choice, at a church that considers her a valid human being. Becky is rad. Go Becky!!!

    1. Bagge

      Go Becky indeed!

      1. Pl0x

        This reminds me of that Jesus Is Risen strip on Shortpacked!, where Lucy and Robin go back and forth saying it.

    2. RacingTurtle

      Huh, you’re right. Heck yeah! Go Becky!

      1. RacingTurtle

        joss stop talking to yourself

    3. thejeff

      I am kind of hoping Becky quietly becomes an Episcopalian.

      1. Gaia

        For the sake of entertainment (Meaning watching Joyce react to it) Becky should either become Luciferian or Anton Lavay Satanist. (neither is pro killing children just so we’re clear on that)

  42. missilentmurmur

    Off:
    Hi folks, I’m gonna visit Los Angeles in a few weeks. Can you recomend things to see there? I’m not very interested in the movies-related stuff. I welcome recommendation for where to eat, too.

    1. sultryglebe

      When we had a local friend show us around, he chose the Apple Pan and Canter’s Deli for food, and took us to Greystone Manor, then on a scenic drive around Laurel Canyon and Mulholland Drive and Griffith Park so you can really see a lot. We did drive past the Walk of Fame and Graumann’s Chinese Theater, but they were really crowded and we didn’t get out.

    2. Thekit10666

      Leo’s tacos is the best food truck for an authentic SoCal taco experience. It’s super cheap and tasty too. There is a ton of stuff to do in LA depending on your interests. If you like museums the LACMA and Getty are good choices. For theme parks, there is Universal Studios and Six Flags. For nature, there is Griffith Park and its awesome observatory.

    3. Dusk Rain

      Hey welcome to my hometown! California Science Center is free and reachable by train, and really cool.

    4. Agemegos

      “The La Brea Tar Pits” means “the the tar tar pits”.

      1. Dusk Rain

        It also smells terrible.

        1. Agemegos

          It’s the pits.

    5. missilentmurmur

      Thank you all 🙂 I’m gonna definitely try the tacos, we’re planning on checking out mulholland drive, too. Since we are only going to spend 2 days and 3 nights, I want to aim for capturing the spirit of the city, experience the atmosphere as much as we can.

    6. Wraithy2773

      Kogi BBQ: http://kogibbq.com/

      They have a place near Culver City and a bunch of Food Trucks that go to various places in the county. It’s basically Korean-Mexican fusion, tacos, burritos, quesadillas and the like, but with Kimchi, Bulgogi and other Korean ingredients.

      If you’re willing to eat something that requires a knife and fork, I can’t recommend the Wet Burrito enough. It’s just to die for…

  43. Sporky

    I love panel 2 Joyce. So cute

    1. @zombieundergrnd

      Panel 2 is the forever gravatar

    2. Chronos

      Joyce is *frumple*. If this continues, *dancing* will ensue.

  44. Kraazivaan

    After reading the mouseover text, the first thing I did on coming to the comments page was look for any reference to this.

    1. SgtWadeyWilson

      I know, right? Immediate thoughts were just like: “How many Zod jokes are already up?”

  45. CJ

    Someone should have warned Jacob that Joyce has germ-panic.

    As far as I remember they used to circle the cup slightly so your lips do not touch the same place as the one of the person before you and hopefully the metal of the cup serves to kill off germs till you have a full round (like messing door handles used to kill of germs which you modern plastic ones don’t).
    If your church givse communion with a common cup of wine, be nice to your fellow churchgoers and don’t participate when you have a cold or worse.

  46. Badgermole

    I forgot that Joyce was alcohol-phobic ever since the party where bad things happened.

    1. NotPiffany

      Ryan used roofies, not booze. Joyce isn’t alcohol-phobic. She’s anti-drinking-while-under-age and probably mildly mysophobic, given her behavior in the showers.

      1. thejeff

        Not to mention her various hangups with food – sharing in particular.

        1. ValdVin

          When we get to Halloween I want to know if Joyce separates M&Ms by color. Out of a bowl where they’re all touching.

  47. Stella

    Jacob is a champ. Becky is a mega-champ.

    Hopefully this doesn’t ultimately upset Joyce too much.

  48. @zombieundergrnd

    Hey, that guy has the flu and looks like he is about to keel over dead.
    You really gonna offer me that cup after you let him drink out of it?

  49. BenRG

    Then, suddenly, Joyce is sweet again.

    Just out of interest, I wonder how many times the vicar has been asked that question? I have a strong feeling that it is one of those ‘if I had a dollar…’ situations for him!

  50. Inahc

    darnit, I keep meaning to play gravatar roulette with my regular comments, and then forgetting.

  51. OnyxIdol

    Kneel before Doz!

  52. EvolutionistX

    As an atheist, I know I don’t really get to have an opinion on the proper way to do rituals, but I’m with Joyce on the germs: everyone using the same cup is icky. Joyce’s church’s custom of using individual cups is clearly cleaner. However, I must side with the Episcopalians on the matter of wine: Jesus blessed the bread and wine at the Last Supper, so bread and wine it is (sensible exceptions may apply.)

    1. Reltzik

      Sensible exceptions? Not according to the Catholic Church. The bread must have SOME gluten to be bread, even if the person taking communion has Celiac’s.

      ….. hmm, how to do this without risking germ spread? Maybe take the bread and dip the end you haven’t touched into the wine.

      1. Rowen Morland

        Straws for everyone.

      2. Katherine

        Dipping the bread in the wine is called intincture and is absolutely a thing people do. My rector explains it before every major holiday service for the newbies, so they know they don’t have to drink from the cup if they don’t want to.

    2. biffzinker

      Don’t forget the possibility of spit in the wine. It only takes one to ruin it for everyone else.

      1. Reltzik

        Eh, it’s not a BIG deal. Just be phlegmatic about it.

        1. Roborat

          Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

  53. ValdVin

    Jacob’s couldn’t be more than composed if he were playing charades and he got “serene”.

    It’s a hoot next to Joyce’s peripatetic expressions in this comic.

  54. Delicious Taffy

    I’m 24 years old, today (38 days younger than the Power Rangers franchise, as I’ve grown fond of saying). I’m not getting any younger, and it feels like I should be deciding what career to start looking into. Maybe something to do with history and language…

    The last seven years have, in all honesty, felt like they were mostly wasted. I’ve spent them mostly withdrawing from social interactions, outside of certain very-closed circles of friends, trying to get over depression, cope with the incessant bullying of the past, and coming to terms with my autism. I’ve met and lost friends and family, been abused and tormented by people I thought I could trust, and started a long-lasting romantic relationship.

    That last part is the most lasting, significant change I’ve had since high school. My girlfriend has been the one constant for the past four years, even when people have tried to get between us. I lost my best friend twice because of this relationship, and I’m glad for it.

    Which surprises me, because I had thought he was the one person who really had my back, even when I was being manipulated and abused by others. For the last year or so, there was even a running joke that I had two partners at once, because he’d become so jealous of other people I’d hang out with. Maybe not the nicest joke, but it helped me sort some things out anyway.

    This is getting a little long-winded, even without getting into the time I spent living with a registered sex offender and other “fun” stories. I guess it’s because this is the only online community where I feel reasonably safe being open and honest, without trying to deflect the honesty into bad humor. Anyway, I’ll wrap this up for now, since it really has nothing to do with the comic, and it’s admittedly self-indulgent.

    1. OnyxIdol

      Don’t know what to say to all this, other than: all the best!

      1. OnyxIdol

        In retrospect, this comment feels kind of shallow. Feel free to ignore.

        1. Delicious Taffy

          Honestly, I appreciate your initial comment. Not everything has to have a deeper meaning than “I wish good things for another person.”

    2. Agemegos

      Are you okay? Reach out to someone if you’re not. Even talking to one of those telephone counselling services can be a great help.

      1. Delicious Taffy

        To me, “okay” is something I don’t put much stock into being. If that makes sense. My level of “okay-ness” fluctuates so frequently, on nearly a day-to-day (and sometimes even minute-to-minute) basis, that I’ve stopped actually caring whether or not I’m “okay”.

        To try and clarify, if somebody asks me “How ya doin’?”, my most common response is “Oh, I’m doin’.”. I don’t really take the time to consider whether or not I’m “okay”. I just sort of “am”, if that makes any sense.

        Of course, this is in no way meant to dismiss your concern, which I appreciate regardless, and thank you for it.

        1. Agemegos

          When people politely ask me how I am, as a formal greeting that is, and not as a genuine enquiry, I have two answers. When I am okay I answer “Can’t complain!” And when I am not okay I answer “Mustn’t grumble.”

        2. Deathjavu

          Are you, by any chance, from the midwest?

    3. Bagge

      *Hugs*

      1. Delicious Taffy

        You’ve been one of the more supportive commenters, during my less-than-positive moments on this site. Thank you for that. It’s been very helpful, the kindness and understanding I’ve received from you, and I can only try to pay that forward in the future.

        1. Delicious Taffy

          Broadened a bit, this also applies to nearly everyone I’ve interacted with on this site. We don’t always know whether we’ve helped someone, but I think everyone should know about at least one instance where something they’ve said or done has had a positive impact.

        2. Bagge

          Thanks. We have a great community here, I think (thank you for your contribution to it), and if anyone gets any positive experience out of me blabbing about Becky I’m happy to oblige.

          I’m a big fan of the concept of paying it forward, so congratulations in advance to whoever in the future crosses your path when they need it the most.

    4. Kryss LaBryn

      If it’s any consolation, I’m almost 47 and still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up, hah. Doesn’t help that the two employment paths I was taking forward at different times both got stepped away from when I started a family, and both are nigh-impossible to get back into again (especially from the area I’m currently in). And I’m not really qualified for much other than joe jobs–and really am not up to dealing with the general public, especially face-to-face, these days. Boo.

      So what I’m doing, frankly, is going back to my childhood, and asking myself, what did I want to be when I grew up? Because I suspect that may be what in our hearts of hearts we really want to do; and these days, there are so many new ways to do things than when I was a kid that a childhood dream that may have seemed impossible back then may now be realistic.

      At this point I’m indulging my crafty side, since I’m home unemployed at the moment anyways, and also trying to start up with my writing again (difficult due to some meds I’m on that kill plots, for some reason), because, hey, I always wanted to be a writer, and I’m decent at it, and thanks to self-publishing and Amazon, one can self-publish for free (try Lulu for that) and potentially make a pretty decent living if you can crank it out fast enough.

      So why not become a porn-lord, I figure? Publish under a pseudonym and I haven’t got much to lose, do I? Just have to sit down and force myself to write.

      So, anyways, rambling a bit but that’s my solution to my own “Gee, I guess I’d better start adulting at some point huh” issue; maybe it’ll be of help to you too.

      Happy birthday; and I’m glad you’ve got a good relationship in your life! 🙂

    5. NotPiffany

      I’m just some random person on the internet, but I don’t think you’ve been wasting your time. You’ve got some psychological things to work out, and you’ve been dealing with them. That’s important. And at your age? You’re at least a decade up on me getting a handle on your depression. I’m impressed and mildly jealous. Good for you!

      A stable, healthy romantic relationship isn’t wasted time, either. And learning who you real friends and family are isn’t a waste. It’s painful, but it’s not a waste.

    6. Vulcanodon

      HAPPY BIRTHDAY Taffy. I have really enjoyed your comments, and it’s my sincere hug and hope that you will find yourself having wonderful years ahead.

    7. Inahc

      happy birthday! 🙂

      tbh, I assumed you’d be headed towards something technical, since programming, engineering etc tend to be more accommodating to people on the spectrum.

      and hey, you’re still in your 20’s; I have a good friend who got his geology degree at, like, 30, and another who’s still trying to get the last few credits he needs at 31 (ah shit I need to get him a bday present still); getting a degree later isn’t all that unusual. heck, I went back to school too and… huh, I was only 26 when I graduated that school? time has been flying past since then…

      anyways, uh, good luck 🙂 *hugs*

  55. SgtWadeyWilson

    5/10 Alt. Text, misspelled Zod.

  56. BenRG

    I’ve got to say that I’m getting genuinely concerned that Joyce is going to end up having some sort of panic attack here!

    1. Gaia

      Are you afraid that her panic attack will make her catatonic, or are you afraid she’ll punch the priest? (Like she did with Toe dad)

      I’m kind-of hoping for the second outcome because it would be funny.

      1. BenRG

        I’m afraid that she’ll start acting out even more than she is already. You know, like standing in the middle of the nave, screaming something like: “Repent! Repent I tell you or you’ll all be DAMNED!” before collapsing or something.

        1. NotPiffany

          I think Joyce is more the “silently screaming” type than the “REPENT! REPENT, YE SINNERS!” type. Today, the religious freak out has gone down to a wide-eyed “weird,” and her actual freak out is over germs, so she may be on the road to adjustment.

  57. Roger Sterling

    Imagine that, instead of this having been a Church, Joyce had accompanied someone to a Mosque or a Synagogue. How would this behavior look?

    The fact Joyce doesn’t feel any compunction *at all* against so blatantly running her mouth about how moronic or weird she thinks this all is in the middle of a church service, shows more about how little regard she holds these Christians than any one thing she’s said *about* them.

    As people have alluded, even atheists who give less than zero shits about religion would at least have some fundamental degree of respect for the people around them.

    1. Sdrainbow

      Maybe I’m projecting, but I’m really empathizing with how Becky seems to be mortified at Joyce’s behavior. I’m hoping this is a learning moment soon.

    2. Andy

      This makes me cringe too, but I suspect at least some of it’s exaggeration for dramatic effect. Willis doesn’t often use internal monologue, so he has to use dialogue where a monologue would work. I suspect from the lack of reaction from everyone else, that there’s some exaggeration for comedic effect going on.

    3. SgtWadeyWilson

      To be fair, as someone raised an athiest by respectful parents, the first few times I was in any church, I was a complete ass at every turn. I didn’t want to be there and I wasn’t going to let anyone forget. (In hindsight, I regret ruining some people’s days, but I can’t undo it.)

      …and that’s without Joyce’s history in a religion that goes out of their way to make its followers think that all other religions, no matter how slight the difference, are evil. I’d had, like, weird bullying conversion attempts when other kids found out I wasn’t any form of Christian(kids can be cruel), but that’s nothing compared to why Joyce is rude.

      Anyway, point is she’s trying, and right now she’s immersed in something she was (wrongly) taught to fear. If she doesn’t apologize after this is over, then she’ll go down a peg in my book, but for now… she’s only human, and just getting this far is a big step for her.

      (That said, I still want to shout at her to shut up to avoid hurting Jacob’s feelings any more than she already has.)

      1. Roger Sterling

        I mean, yeah, I guess that’s dickish behavior on your part. But it’s a bit more understandable because a) there was no percentage in it for you and b) you don’t share their value system at all. Like, what were people expecting.

        In Joyce’s case, she’s getting…well…triggered by pews instead of folding chairs, no electric guitars, the fact Episcopalians refer to Communion by its classical name, and the fact *they use wine instead of grape juice in spite of the fact it hews closer to the literal text of the Bible*.

        And I might be additionally biased, because not gonna lie, Joyce’s church sounds really fucking kitschy. I might be a nihilist, but I can totally jive with the Episcopalian aesthetic and respect for their classical heritage.

        1. Roger Sterling

          *atheist

        2. hallucigenia

          Oh thank goodness someone else feels like this. I mean, it feels kind of out of my place as an atheist to say something like this, but I just find Joyce’s type of evangelical church to be desperately unaesthetic. There is so much cool art of every type in the Christian tradition! Why would you throw that out for secondhand versions of mainstream American culture?

          I guess it’s all about what you grew up with…

    4. Fallingivy

      I’m with this comment 100 percent.

    5. ValdVin

      Maybe if this were a mosque or synagogue Joyce would have expected differences. Here she’s gobsmacked with the “Protestants be we all” idea whipsawing with this near-Catholic experience.

      Amazing to think that she’s seen past what her church taught her re atheism and lesbianism, and look at her two closest friends. If she can make that, she can make this. But it won’t be without stumbling.

      1. CJ

        I agree. If she went to a service of a completely different faith, she would have been prepared form unknown things. Here, she freaks out because she thinks she knows what to expect and gets confronted with her worst fears about other Christian denominations.
        She will probably need a few days before she realizes how abominable she behaved.

        1. thejeff

          She also wouldn’t have gone to such a service to participate, but to observe. She wouldn’t have been planning to take the equivalent of communion or whatever.

  58. Tobias

    As a Methodist Protestant, we did the kneeling at the front thing, but used grape juice.

    There was also a lot of singing, but no electric guitars. They’re pretty cool with lesbians, but don’t have a Jesus on their cross.

    As someone who went to a different church’s service only once or twice in their lives, this story arc has been fascinating for me, even though I haven’t been to a service in about ten years. It sounds like my Methodist upbringing is kind of a middle ground between what Joyce and Jacob are used to?

    1. Gaia

      As far as I know the bible dosn’t comment on lesbians, it’s guy on guy stuff that’s bad. (Correct me if I’m wrong please)

      1. John

        If memory serves it just does mention men laying with men, nothing about women. But it has been awhile since my high school religion class, there may be something I missed there, and most people will still interpret it as a blatant “gay = bad!!” statement, despite them taking everything else literally in the book.
        Which is always why I have taken my father’s (who taught Bible History at a fanatically catholic school for several years) view on the bible, and that it is the best piece of historic fiction you will ever read.

        1. begbert2

          I think it may be the worst piece of fiction I’ve ever read. There’s hardly any plot, the characterization is often weak, the dialogue is sparse and poorly written, its wordbuilding is hamhanded and yet vague, its timeline is unclear, there are massive detailed (boring) technical asides, and the main characters die and get rotated out faster than game of thrones.

          I mean, sure, there are probably lots of truly awful books out there that have all these flaws as well, but I prefer to read good books. And the Good Book is definitely not a good book, as fiction books go.

      2. Marsh Maryrose

        Not in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, there’s Romans 1:26, which talks about women behaving unnaturally, and it is the only specific reference to female homosexuality in the Bible. (It was written by Paul. Of course it was.)

        1. King Daniel

          Not to defend the guy, but IIRC not all of the books traditionally attributed to Paul are believed to have actually been written/dictated by him. Can’t remember off the top of my head whether or not Romans was one of those, however.

      3. Stella

        Interestingly (not sure how widespread this is) some scholars interpret Ruth and Naomi from the book of Ruth as having a loving lesbian relationship, and that Ruth’s marriage to Boaz was right because it was the only way Ruth could gain safety and protection as a woman, yet it did not overshadow the love between Ruth and Naomi.

        In this reading, the message is, “Marriage and family are political /social institutions, separate from romantic love. Loyal romantic love, even between two women, is close to God’s love. However, taking a wife you do not love romantically in order to protect her is honorable, and honors God.”

        Which is sort of a weird message nowadays? I wish I could find the article I read about it; it was by a female rabbi. The gist was, committed love and doing right by someone are different things, but both honor God. She also made a compelling case, I think, that the love between Ruth and Naomi would be read as romantic at the time, rather than mother / daughter.

        So…not “an abomination” but also pro straight marriage over same-sex marriage.

  59. Bagge

    Yeah, Carol. Sign a form for Joyce to attend a “hippie church”. We are waiting.

    1. BenRG

      The ironic thing is, from Joyce’s description, her denomination is actually closer to what I would consider a ‘hippie church’ than any mainstream group! I mean… Dancing ‘worship leaders’? Electric guitars?

      1. Bagge

        Hippies are known to be seen shimmying, after all.

        …full disclosure, I don’t know too much about churches of different dominations, hippies OR hippie churches, and I’m frankly a bit vague on shimmying as well, so don’t mind me. Just being silly over here.

        1. Pablo360

          My mom was a total beatnik yoot and a somewhat important leader in my church, so by default I attended a “hippie church” all my life. And let me tell you, we did far more than shimmy.

          In fact, I would sing an unbidden harmony to every poppy rock-hymn, and after eight years my best friend finally didn’t get annoyed by that.

        2. Bagge

          That’s awesome!

  60. prime_pm

    We did the kneeling at the front for a while in my Episcopal church years ago. Then during renovations to the church we started doing the traditional Catholic queue up plus cup thing. After renovations, it just stuck that way.

  61. tenkiforecast

    Something I’m wondering about because of this comic…

    I went to a more liberal Lutheran church when I was younger (I found out, in the 90s, my pastor was pro-LGBT rights. In Kansas, and encouraged my mother to explore why she did not believe in the resurrection, so yeah, a really liberal pastor) which offered the choice of grape juice or wine for the Eucharist.

    What do other Episcopal or Catholic churches do for parishioners who are abstinent? My father’s in Alcoholics Anonymous and I avoid alcohol like the plague, and both of us do not go to church. I know parishioners can pass on the Eucharist (I do at funerals, but that’s more awareness of what the church would want over myself), but what about parishioners that are devout? What do they do if they, like me, avoid all kinds of alcohol?

    1. Seraph4377

      In the Catholic church, it’s the bread that’s the real focus of the ritual. Everyone who’s participating in Communion at all takes that, while about half of them just pass by the wine.

      1. Liliaeth

        In catholic churches in Belgium they don’t even pass on the wine. The only one who drinks form it, is the priest, and possibly the onderpastoor, or in smaller congregations, the layperson helping with the service. The rest of the community just comes to to the front of the church, and gets a communion wafter.

    2. Stella

      Where I’m from (American midwest), most Episcopalian and Anglican churches have a non-alcohol option .

  62. Josh Spicer

    Pardon the language given the situation, but Jesus Christ.

    Joyce, I might not believe in other denominations of Christianity but my own or other religions in it of themselves, but girl, you gotta have a modicum of respect for ’em. This is just blatantly rude and completely ridiculous.

    Coexist girl, come on.

    1. thejeff

      Everything she has been taught, from early childhood, is that “coexisting” and respecting other religions is evil.
      She’s made remarkable progress, but it’s only been a couple of months.

      And today’s freakout is actually more about her germaphobia and food hangups than anything else.

  63. Danni

    becky thats not how alcohol works

    1. Bagge

      …don’t tell Joyce.

      1. AeroQC

        That avatar is so on point.

  64. The Final Pam

    Joyce, please stop yelling in church. Manners don’t stop being a thing just because youre outside your comfort zone.

  65. Oberon

    “Just relax and do what everyone else is doing.”

    A phrase spoken at every cult gathering, ever. Also every drug scene, orgy, and most mass crimes such as riots and lynchings.

    1. hallucigenia

      As well as to new or unfamiliar people at virtually all more-innocuous social events like community dinners, dance events, work parties, and religious rituals like that depicted here.

      In fact, basically it seems to be the principle that all of human society, good and bad, runs on.

      1. thejeff

        Right. You’ve just got to have your filter well tuned enough to realize when the thing you’re following along with is really a problem.
        But not so highly tuned you freak out over innocuous things.

        A skill Joyce has not developed.

      2. Stella

        @hallucigenia

        THANK YOU.

        This kind of phrasing (rhetoric?) I find really annoying in general. Like when people say, “Well, Hitler did _______” when it’s something pretty much all political leaders do, or is just a benign thing a lot of people do. I once saw someone write that it’s wrong to be vegetarian because Hitler was vegetarian, and I *still* cannot figure out if they were trolling or serious.

        “Follow other people’s leads, don’t stress too much or over-think things, nobody’s judging you” are really helpful lessons that people learn in CBT if one has social anxiety. Picturing the worst case scenario (“but what if the party turns into a Lynch mob?!”) is actually an anxiety symptom called catastrophizing.

        A therapist might help work through catastrophizing by coming up with a plan for worst case scenario events, while still maintaining emphasis on the relative safety of normal social events such as parties and church.

        Joyce probably *does* feel like she is being judged (by God) for participating in these rituals, but perhaps fears being judged by her friends were she to simply opt-out. So, caught in the middle, she feels mounting panic. She (like many characters in this comic) could probably use some real therapy. I’ve been to therapy. It helped a lot.

      3. Kryss LaBryn

        When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

        When in Corinthians, do as the Corinthians do, heh.

    2. Dusk Rain

      *cult survivor side eye*

  66. AeroQC

    Dang Joyce, how secluded were you? (O~O)
    I thought communion was standardized to be with unleavened bread and [real] wine?

    1. Rahzy

      Haha, nope. Our Baptist Church also used little crackers and grape juice. My parents being deacons, I’d score the rest of the grape juice afterwards. It wasn’t until I attended a wedding at another church I saw this sort of service with real wine. (and also was scared I was breaking some sort of law).

  67. Ryek Hvek

    Not to trumpet supposed self-sanitizing of a cup of wine, but there are supposed to be some records in existence of food-poisoning outbreaks on cruise ships that show a correlation between passenger drinking of wine and liquor and avoiding the food poisoning. Apparently beer doesn’t rate equally as protection.

    1. Oberon

      Beer was far safer to drink than water in yea olde dark ages because the water was frequently contaminated due to the lack of knowledge about people pissing and shitting in it upstream, plus insects and bacteria, etc.

      But part of the process for making beer involves a nice long boil, and that kills off all the things that would otherwise do a fair job at killing you. Saint Arnolf (sic) is a Saint in part because he once dipped the end of his crucifix in a vat of beer and ordered the town to drink only beer. Thus saving many lives.

      Also, beer was made in various strengths. The beer you’d drink just to avoid water was called a ‘small beer’ and was very low in alcohol, being made from a second running of water through the barley mash after the first one had already extracted most of the fermentable sugars. So there was little issue with people drinking only beer and no water at all.

  68. Liliet

    Joyce is trying she’s so adorable

    1. Liliet

      (I’m assuming she’s whispering/speaking quietly and not actually yelling out loud, if only from the fact she’s not kicked out yet)

      1. Briny

        I’m kind of assuming so too. Or maybe Joyce’s home-church (whatever she thinks it is, Mr Brown apparently moved them around a lot) was loud enough that you could just throw a microtantrum and not interrupt the service.

    2. chris73

      Shes not trying very hard at all, shes acting like a petulant child. Just because its new and it doesn’t marry up to her world view doesn’t mean she gets to forget common decencies like basic politeness and manners.

      1. the final pam

        Yeah.. If she had at least one nice thing to say between all the complaints or could at least restrain herself from immediately blurting out everything that’s wrong, it’d be one thing? But as it is, she’s just being very rude.

        1. Puckish Rogue

          Agreed, all she has to do is keep her mouth shut but nope its like shes got no impulse control.

      2. Liliet

        She’s kind of actively freaking out, because her upbringing taught her that this is what CHURCH OF SATAN looks like? Note how she’s still there, how she actually did follow Jacob to the front and is not refusing the wine, just asking a confused question.

        If she has any good things to say, it’ll be later, after she’s done ABSOLUTELY FREAKING OUT

        it’s the contrast between her questions and facial expressions (MAJOR FREAKOUT) and what she ends up doing (actually go through the whole thing) that shows, to me, that she is trying really hard

  69. silentNate

    I’m not enjoying this storyline at all. As an ex-Catholic I feel surprised and angry at Joyce’s responses to this church and feel an increasing need to defend religion. That ain’t right but it’s the way I feel. I don’t usually feel that atheists are attacking me personally and I have no love for organised religion but damn. Might stop reading for a couple of weeks and return.

    What happened to Discus btw, at least it was easy to log-in…

    1. Emperor Norton II

      OK, I just have to ask: Where are you feeling that atheists are attacking you personally?

      1. silentNate

        My bad. I meant that I didn’t feel that atheists were attacking me personally while I felt upset at Joyce’s attitude.

        1. Emperor Norton II

          Ahh, OK. A moment of bad wording. Happens to the best of them, and to the rest of us as well.

    2. dethtoll

      I’m an ex-Catholic too fam AND a sheltered kid so I totally understand where Joyce is coming from. Joyce’s responses are perfectly normal for someone raised in the kind of environment she was. There’s a world of difference between highly-ritualized denominations that draw a lot from RC traditions (like Episcopalians) and the more freewheeling style of many other Protestant sects that Joyce is used to — and as sheltered as Joyce was, with her pre-existing bias against Catholicism (again part of her upbringing) she’s having strong cognitive dissonance issues right now.

    3. BBCC

      Discus is an abomination to comment systems and should be disbanded immediately.

      1. Inahc

        disqus? it does have the advantage of being able to block people.

        good moderation is better than individual blocks in the case of trolls, but when you just can’t stand someone for personal reasons it’s nice to just dump them in the killfile 🙂

        1. Kryss LaBryn

          It also does at least allow one to track replies in one spot. I’m perfectly happy with the comment system here, though, if only because of Gravatar-roulette, ha ha.

  70. Adj

    I was raised in a fairly liberal Catholic way, which included a sense that, sure, the Protestants may be doing it “not as right” as the Catholics, but they are doing something good in the way they do church. We were all a part of “Team God.” So I was finding Joyce to be a bit annoying thus far.

    But with this strip, I came to the realization that Joyce has a lot of strata of prejudice to dig through. She has been taught that there is *one way* to worship God, and all other ways are idolatry and are on the path to perdition. And she has had this drummed into her head for her entire life, and she is just now starting to get the tools to free herself.

    It is well worth remember that she has gone to college to get her “MRS.” degree, or at least she started that way. This experience, despite her extreme reaction, is a vital first step towards a larger world.

    And the look on her face in the last panel has so many adorbs, it might amount to “totes” and it triggers my “Awww, poor kid” reflex.

    1. dethtoll

      As someone who also grew up in the Catholic church I’ve been confronted with people who insisted that Catholics aren’t Christian. Even as an atheist that still pisses me off. But I also understand that it’s a set of beliefs very strongly ingrained through repeat reinforcement and training, and someone like Joyce who’s having a very painful breakaway from the shitty, abusive, cult-like environment she was raised in is going to struggle with the idea of accepting a form of belief that not a year prior she believed was idolatry.

  71. BP

    It’s like, BARELY alcohol. I have all the tolerance of a much thinner person than me and I can handle church wine no probs.

  72. PokeyPuppy

    Hahaha that second panel!

    The last time my dad got married, the pastor-type person was talking to all of us ahead of time about the ceremony, which included communion.

    I have never felt more at home with my aunts than when they were all whispering together at the beginning of the communion:

    “Do you think they use one cup?” “If they do, I’m not participating.”

    1. PokeyPuppy

      Ergh… THIRD panel

  73. Ragingagnostic

    Dangit, Joyce! We can’t take you anywhere!

  74. Lauralot

    Joyce is definitely being rude and disruptive (I’m hoping the yelling is an exaggerated comedic effect, because otherwise, just…ugh), but I think it’s important to keep in mind that Joyce has likely been taught that not only are Catholics wrong and weird (and Episcopalian services are so like Catholic masses), but also evil.

    Way back when, shortly after Joyce learned Dorothy was an atheist, we saw that she carried around Chick tracts. If you’ve never seen a Chick tract on Catholicism before, well, Are Roman Catholics Christians? is a good introduction to Chick’s bizarre conspiracies theories on Catholics and The Death Cookie is a taste of how hateful he can be, but even those are just scratching the surface.

    If Joyce was exposed to his anti-Catholic tracts (and his hatred of Catholics slips into pretty much every tract) or if her church taught the same, then she’s been told that not only do Catholics worship Mary (who is secretly the demonic temptress Semiramis) and the Sun God Ra, but also that they started Islam, Mormonism, Masonry, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, that they killed Lincoln and Kennedy, that they started WWII and funded Hitler and Stalin, they organized the Holocaust, and they’re preparing for a second inquisition to slaughter all the Protestants. And that’s just a start.

    Honestly, if Joyce has been taught all that, it’s quite a testament to her resolve that she hasn’t run away screaming.

    1. JohnnyO

      Wait, people think that Catholics killed Kennedy even though he was also one of us?

      1. Inahc

        Since when have people ever let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory? 😉

        1. BP

          This is the best sentence I’ve read all day.

      2. Lauralot

        The thinking is that the Vatican took Kennedy out because he refused to let them take control of the US or something.

    2. Liliet

      I’m assuming she’s whisper-yelling: no voice in it but definitely a lot of feeling.
      I mean, otherwise I’m pretty sure she’d be out the doors on her butt already

  75. Stranger

    Yes, THIS particular varation of a ridiculously nonsensical ritual is weird, in comparison to the variation you’re personally familiar with.

    1. Anna

      In Ukrainian Byzantine churches they soak the bred cubes in the wine then drop it in your mouth. Imagine if Joyce had to deal with those shenanigans. Also the fact depending on the day whether we follow the pope or not.

  76. HeySo

    Dammit, Willis.
    Why does your favorite character poll not include Sayid? 🙁

  77. Benjy

    I had this crisis of faith when attending a Methodist church after years of being a Baptist. I wasn’t sure what I was about to drink. (Spoiler, it was grape juice)

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